Susan's Place Transgender Resources

In the last 2+ weeks i have had more thrills out and about that i could have imagined, while doing almost nothing remarkable - just living.

But since I went into this essentially full time mode, the pressure at home has been dialed up to 11. Whether it's well meaning relatives telling me to "put my pants on" (she's a sweetheart, but she thinks she's thinking of what's best for my family)...

or in-laws who stand a 24 hour watch waiting for her call to be rescued from "this mess"...

or her repeating the same discussion every night that veers wildly from "I don't see how we can make it" to "it'll all work out" and from "I didn't marry you for a sister" to "if we're going to be roommates we can take the rings off" (which is to say, a lot of conflicting and contradictory statements and signals within the same conversation)...

or the most recent tactic of saying "I ask the kids how they felt and they don't like it either" (they won't talk to me about it) and "they need a daddy, you are taking their daddy away from them"...

it all makes me think of myself as an escapee who's not really and truely free because the bloodhounds can be heard in the distance.

It's like being a runaway slave - even though I'm "free"...I keep thinking the bounty hunter is just around the next corner, ready to put the chains back on.

What's worse, I can feel myself tiring of the pursuit....my knees getting weak. Feeling the temptation to just lie down in the ditch and let them find me. Drag me back to the cell. Worse, throw me in "the hole" for even attempting escape (i.e. go through life knowing everyone not only knows what's inside, but knows I'm so weak i can't even follow through on such a blatant coming out)

the main argument I'm making to her now is that even if she thinks i broke it, the peices don;t go together anymore - I might have been able to muddle through the next 20 years never knowing how good this feels - but now i know.

she and the rest of them would certainly have gone on thinking I was a rather drab and unremarkable little man of no accomplishment - but now they know I'm a "freak" (in their view) and they can't "unknow" that. The only thing worse is to see me give up and quit because it's too hard (all the while telling me what a noble deed it was to "put my family first")

I don't fear anything that this coming out brings my way, whether it's being killed by a hater or rejected by everyone I know - except one thing. I fear discrediting everything I've accomplished so far by accepting defeat and de-transitioning.

I'm not sure how long I could keep getting up n the mornings if I did that.

But....I can hear them...and my legs are getting very tired.

I'm very, very sorry, but... NO WHITE PERSON FROM THE SOUTH can ever compare themselves to a runaway slave.  For this simple reason.  Slaves never had a choice in any of that, you did.

While Tekla's delivery can be quite tackless and crass

But for sure, easy to understand - which, by the way, is the hallmark of good writing - tell me dear.  After you lied to her, and lied to her, and lied to her again, and again, and again.  Exactly how many more lies did you expect her to stick around for?

I have no intention of either a) beating anyone up, or b) telling people how much of their life is based on a lie.  I only worry about those you lie to.

Quote from: tekla on November 25, 2009, 01:42:43 AM
I'm very, very sorry, but... NO WHITE PERSON FROM THE SOUTH can ever compare themselves to a runaway slave.  For this simple reason.  Slaves never had a choice in any of that, you did.

it's called an analogy.

And no person of any color anywhere who's not been a slave can compare themselves to anyone who has in a literal sense.

(Not all slaveholders were white southerners in America and not all slaves are or were black)

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Post Merge: November 25, 2009, 10:00:25 AM

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Quote from: heatherrose on November 25, 2009, 02:21:34 AM

I know exactly how you feel, I have been in the same exact place you
now find yourself. Even after my ex told me we were done as a couple, I
still held out hope that some how everything was going to stay the same,
"Hey I'm still the same person, just packaged differently." Well, that's what
I thought anyway. Four years later, EVERYTHING is different, including me.
While Tekla's delivery can be quite tackless and crass, you ARE faced
with a choice and I am not going to just pat you on the back and say it's
going to be ok, like I did to myself four years ago. The likelihood is that in
the near future, you are going to see yourself faced with having to make
a choice and I am sure that you have a good idea what your options are
going to be. Either way it WILL be extremely painful. A friend a long time
ago a friend of mine told me, "You can not force Heather to live TMW's
life." My heart goes out to you and you know where to come to cry.

Too be very clear, I'm prepared to deal with the pain of losing her - what scares me is the pain of HURTING her.

If I could walk away today and know she'd have a happy and fullfilling future I'd go.

Laura Hope, do you really expected something else?

What your therapist says, in this moments is when having one helps.

QuoteIf I could walk away today and know she'd have a happy and fullfilling future I'd go.

Laura, this is a very salient point. I could have placed myself in it's context only a short time ago. But, there are so many variables in these situations it's not really possible to be so clear. And, I feel that's what keeps some of us from doing just that; following our hearts.

It's obvious you really do want to keep your family together. Which is more important to you? Keeping your family together or being yourself; your pride or your freedom? These are hard questions to offer an answer to because they are painful questions that involve making a choice. Ultimately, that answer is known inside yourself. Allowing yourself to reach it is sometimes pleasant to no one. Not even you.

It appears you are at a crossroads in your journey, Laura. It's also my perspective that you have the strength to make the correct decision for you. Whatever that may be, make it work the best you can. Keep your soul strong and though there may be others who would be detractors, let them say what they will and pay them no mind.

It does sound as though there is some measure of hope in what your wife is saying. I know those wavering comments all to well. As I am sure many others here do also. The doubting comments are surely not what "we" are wanting to hear, yet, they are part of the process. Given enough time, things could work out for both of you to be happy in this. I'll stay hopeful for you, Laura.


Dawn     

I agree the slave thing is a bad analogy, your'e being melodramatic and nobody is going to take that seriously in person.

Quoteor her repeating the same discussion every night that veers wildly from "I don't see how we can make it" to "it'll all work out" and from "I didn't marry you for a sister" to "if we're going to be roommates we can take the rings off"

There's a lot of pain in her words isn't there?

Look, your'e going to destroy these peoples lives. You know it as well as we do and so do they. So just do it and get it over with or knock it off. It's selfish of you to sit in between like this, picking the band-aid off one hair at a time. At this point it sounds like it will be a relief for them anyway. Look at it from your wife's point of view: Her chronically unemployed husband who can barely pay the utility bills has started dressing like a woman and parading around town. I'll bet she doesn't see the recession, or your being trans, and even if she does it doesn't change the equation any. Her future isn't your business, it's hers.

QuoteI'm prepared to deal with the pain of losing her - what scares me is the pain of HURTING her.

I don't think this is the case, the other stars don't line up. What are you really afraid of? I think you need to decide what you're doing, make a plan of immediate action and stick with it. Right or wrong, fair or unfair your actions are affecting other human beings who you profess to care about, so start acting like it.

Laura,
Being in somewhat a similar position but farther down the road, I can say that transitioning in this environment is excruciating. I never expected to see the degree of hurtful reactions when I started. I also caved in several times and did things the family's way only to crash and burn emotionally. I even thought I could do what they wanted for years but eventually, I got convinced that I could not function unless I transitioned. So, I did and took all the shots that came my way. I too grieved at the pain my transition caused to my family and still do.

I looked at transition as a last resort. I was willing to give up my identity, my desires and my life for my family and did so until it became impossible to go on. Only then, did my family see at some level that I didn't have a choice but they still didn't want it to be true. They hoped and tried to cajole, manipulate or cry over my transition. I had to do it knowing that it was best for us all.  I firmly believe that had I committed suicide, which was where I was heading, that the trauma to them would have been far worse.

You have a hard road ahead. If you are were I was, you will be in this pressure cooker for some time and I hate to say it but, it will probably get worse at every step you take to be yourself.

I think that transitioning is about the hardest thing a person can do. Late transitioners have a lifetime of people who make it much worse. Even if they love us.

I have no answers or ways to make it come out all right.  Sometimes the cure isn't without massive downsides. I wish you the very best as you and your family struggle to find a way to get through.

Maggie

Well, I thought the runaway prisoner analogy is pretty good.  (OK, so I changed it for more modern times.)  I've had one of the easiest transitions on record but it still has been hard and, at times, discouraging.  During those times I've come here to Susan's for support and usually received it.  I have been very lucky.

Laura, we each have different situations and needs.  I am not in your situation, but once I started I couldn't turn back.  I grew tremendously once released from the cage and so would no longer fit back into it.  I have never been suicidal about being TG, but I remember telling my therapist that I would have to kill myself if forced to go back.  I wasn't threatening, just telling her the way it was (and is).

Quote from: Laura Hope on November 25, 2009, 01:35:09 AM
I don't fear anything that this coming out brings my way, whether it's being killed by a hater or rejected by everyone I know - except one thing. I fear discrediting everything I've accomplished so far by accepting defeat and de-transitioning.

I can't tell you what to do, Laura.  My spouse is dead, my child grown, my family reluctantly accepting.  I have no idea whether you and your wife will be able to work things out.  One of the problems I see is that there always seems to be some hope that it will work out but it never does.  Only you (or she) can decide that enough is enough. 

When my son-in-law was an out-of-control drunk, my daughter had a very hard time leaving him because she always hoped it would get better.  Well, it got better, but only after she left him.  At some point you either have to **** or get off the pot.  That's easy for those of us to say off in distant cyberspace, but much, much harder for the people living through it.  (I really know that.)

Are you able to get counseling, dear?

*long, steady, energy-giving hug*
Kate

Quote from: Zelane on November 25, 2009, 10:51:10 AM
Laura Hope, do you really expected something else?

What your therapist says, in this moments is when having one helps.

Is it really necessary that I must have expected something different in order to be troubled as it comes to pass?

I didn't expect anything different from her family - unless I expected an every more agressive attempt to part us

I didn't expect anything different from the preacher man - unless I expected him to knock on my door and try to "talk sense into me"

As for what I expected from my wife - in some ways this is just what I expected, in other ways not so much.

I DID have reason to believe it had the potential to have gone somewhat better (in fact, it still does if we make it to the point where she gives up hope of getting me to de-transition) - she has certain traits, qualities or characteristics if you will, which lend themselves readily to giving up her ideal concept in order to see the one she loves be happy, I've seen her do so before on large and small scales.

I also had some reason to believe that she had become more open minded on....unconventional lifestyles as it were...in the last few years which was a reason for cautious optimism.

but no, I can't say I just expected her to cheerfully say "whatever makes you happy dear" and take it with a smile.

but again, it's not necessary for me to have had wrong-headed expectations in order to be troubled at what comes to pass.

Then if you already know all that. Why arent you moving on? And with that I mean to separate and fulfill your life in a different path than her.

There is no love there just an attachment, and even if you still "love" her. Whats the point in that? Dont regret what its been done, look straight, think ahead and be happy.

Lost that encumbrance.

Quote from: Becca on November 25, 2009, 12:16:29 PM
I agree the slave thing is a bad analogy, your'e being melodramatic and nobody is going to take that seriously in person.

So think of it as escaping from prison - or a kidnapper - rather than getting distracted over an unimportant detail

Quote
There's a lot of pain in her words isn't there?

Look, your'e going to destroy these peoples lives. You know it as well as we do and so do they.

I "know" no such thing. there are women posting on this very board who's marriage came through the fires and the couple remained intact and in love, if under a different circumstance.

The axiom "be prepared to lose everything" is NOT the same thing as "you WILL lose everything" We have sisters here who prove otherwise.

No one knows in the midst of the pain how the will come out the other side. for instance, when a child in a family dies, the parents are always in tremendous heartbreak for years mourning that child. SOME couples can't recover and divorce, SOME stay together and come out the other side and make peace with the situation.

But in the middle of the mourning, neither you nor they can say which couple is which.

It is, frankly, a bit arrogant to suggest it's a foregone conclusion. Perhaps you are attempting a "tough love" thing in order to suggest I cut it off now. That might even be a good bit of advice. but the statement is nontheless nothing but speculation.

Quote
So just do it and get it over with or knock it off. It's selfish of you to sit in between like this, picking the band-aid off one hair at a time. At this point it sounds like it will be a relief for them anyway.

Then I am being uncler, or either you are reading into what I've described.

What is at work here is being cautious to not do (again) something that cannot be taken back until everyone is agreed it's the thing to do.

Just a couple of days ago I suggested to her that after Christmas perhaps I should pack a bag and go to my mom's for a few weeks so she could see if a separation suited her and she told me quite specifically that that defeated the whole purpose of her trying to maintain the family unit for the sake of the boys.

For me to "yank the band-aid off" now in spite of her opinion would only further alienate her and further reinforce the notion that my main goal is to get rid of them because I don't care about them.

YOU may know, in your wisdom, that she'd be better off if she thought that, but I'm operating from the point of view that if I tell her (honestly) that it's her call, then I will not help anyone by making the call myself anyway.

Quote
Look at it from your wife's point of view: Her chronically unemployed husband who can barely pay the utility bills has started dressing like a woman and parading around town. I'll bet she doesn't see the recession, or your being trans, and even if she does it doesn't change the equation any. Her future isn't your business, it's hers.

Wow. Nice. I think I'll leave that one alone, no good can come from posting a reaction to it.

Quote
I don't think this is the case, the other stars don't line up. What are you really afraid of? I think you need to decide what you're doing, make a plan of immediate action and stick with it. Right or wrong, fair or unfair your actions are affecting other human beings who you profess to care about, so start acting like it.

Um...yeah...Ok.

Noted and logged.

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Post Merge: November 25, 2009, 11:25:30 PM

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Quote from: Zelane on November 25, 2009, 11:18:18 PM
Then if you already know all that. Why arent you moving on?

That which is done in haste, cannot be undone. As I mentioned above, other relationships HAVE survived through this kind of pain and found a place of peace.

I think it would be error to ASSUME that because it is painful now it must die.

Especially under the circumstances. when it gets to the place where she says, without contridiction, that she will not have me in her home or in her life as a woman, yet even then won't come out and say I should leave, then it will be on me to leave. but as long as she is saying as often "i want us to stay together and not seperate" as she is "I don't know how we can stay together" I personally don't think it's on me to make the call yet.

I think there's a misunderstanding about the purpose of this thread. it wasn't a "tell me how to fix this" question.

rather, it was simply a bloggish kind of venting of a train of thought in my head....an outlet for emotions that need an outlet.

A place to commiserate, not be schooled.

Staying together for the sake of the kids doesn't statistically work. It's a cop out and everybody who does it knows it.

I don't do tough love, that was just my honest asessment based on what I've read. I've been known to be wrong, it's just one persons opinion  :)

Hang in there darling.

I "know" no such thing. there are women posting on this very board who's marriage came through the fires and the couple remained intact and in love, if under a different circumstance.

I was talking to a very pretty young lady a few weeks ago. She grew up just down the road from you in Meridian.  Next month she is turning 21.  She is already a self-made millionaire, and may well be a multimillionaire before she is 22 or 23.  So, such things do happen.  But just because it happened to her, just because there is a young lady like that, does not mean its going to happen to everyone.

I think those 'happy' couples who went through this and stayed together have something in common with Hayley Williams in that they are both exceptions to the rule, and not the average case.

You have to plan for the worst, and when it perhaps doesn't happen, then you can be pleasantly surprised. 

Quote
I think those 'happy' couples who went through this and stayed together have something in common with Hayley Williams in that they are both exceptions to the rule, and not the average case.

Oh my yes, I'd absolutely agree with that. I'm not playing the Powerball by delaying a seperation, but I am definitely drawing to an inside straight (at least)

QuoteYou have to plan for the worst, and when it perhaps doesn't happen, then you can be pleasantly surprised.

I have a "plan for the worst" in the sense of what happens if we split (to the extent that finances or whatever allow...kind of a multiple-option set of plans really)

I don't have a "plan for the worst" in terms of detransitioning because I frankly think that I'd pretty much just give up and be useless which is why, in the long run, it's better for her that I leave even if she doesn't realize it at the time - but that leaving only comes if/when she gives me the ultimatum to repress or get out.

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Post Merge: November 26, 2009, 12:48:09 AM

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QuoteStaying together for the sake of the kids doesn't statistically work. It's a cop out and everybody who does it knows it.

In general terms, I agree. if I "stayed for the kids" it would only be if we settled into a respectful and "no-drama" relationship.
Usually when "staying for the kids" doesn't work it's because the two who stay together are in constant stress and conflict. If I stayed here for another year(ish) and we stayed in constant stress and conflict, I'd probably make the decision for her.

But knowing the situation as I do, I believe there is a legitimate possibility that - if there is no ultimatum - that we could settle into an amicable "roommates" situation which would, I believe, be better for the kids than me moving out.

Quote
I don't do tough love, that was just my honest asessment based on what I've read.

Probably then I was not communicating the circumstances as well as I should have.

Quote from: Laura Hope on November 26, 2009, 12:44:05 AM


I don't have a "plan for the worst" in terms of detransitioning because I frankly think that I'd pretty much just give up and be useless which is why, in the long run, it's better for her that I leave even if she doesn't realize it at the time - but that leaving only comes if/when she gives me the ultimatum to repress or get out.

Why does she have to give an ultimatum if shes saying you are only staying together for the sake of the kids perhaps your self deluding in thinking their will be some kind of loving relationship after its done i have to agree with becca i think your delaying the inevitable in the hope that she will come around
jessica

Well, Laura, once again I seem to be in the minority.  I really feel for you.  I hope you can work it all out - whatever that means.  You have a tough road for many reasons, far tougher than mine and probably tougher than many who offer you advice. 

Being in limbo is tough.  There is a tendency to make a decision - any decision - that will get you out of it, but usually if you can stick it out and work through it the right decision will become clear.  It is the process of getting there that is so frustrating, though.

You have always sounded like a very reasonable person, well-grounded despite our common problem.  You have to trust to your own judgement, especially since it has always seemed to be fairly sound.  You are the only one of us who knows your situation really well.  As long as you can see it with some clarity, you will make the right decisions for you.

Good luck, dear.  :icon_bunch:

- Kate

Yes, there are relationships that do survive transition. Danielle and I are hoping to be one of those. However, I do NOT see a key factor in your relationship that exists in mine (and others that have "survived"). I do not see your spouse making one iota of effort to *try* to accept things. No therapy, no discussions (arguments are NOT discussions), no discussions of middle grounds. Nothing. That is not the way a relationship works.

I would tend to agree with the person who said that all your wife sees is you dressing up like a woman and parading around town. I can totally see where that reaction is coming from and how it would lead to your wife's rather antagonistic reactions. You're worried about hurting your wife? I can tell you that you *are* hurting her right now. You've totally turned her life upside down and are wondering why she's not happy?

Transition for the spouse is a much more "up front" process. By the time you come out to them, you've already dealt with the knowledge for years. For your wife, this just popped up out of nowhere. Speaking from experience, we have a lot of emotional, mental, and fact processing to do up front. We don't get the "benefit" of "dealing with this for years". There are a lot of things your wife needs to process - being perceived as a lesbian, what will family/children/coworkers/random strangers think, feelings of being 'lied' to or misled by you, seeing your transition as an 'attack' on her femininity/motherhood identity, what's going to happen next, fears about medications/surgery/change as a whole, where is the money coming from, and stuff that I probably can't think of. Your wife needs to make peace with most of this up front. Been there, done that. Twice in fact.

This is where therapy and some of those compromises come in. Therapy is going to be key because you and your wife need to relearn how to communicate. The fact that you keep circling around the same argument without progress says you have communication issues. Therapy is going to help figure out where the problems are. Therapy is also going to give you and your wife a safe place to talk. Danielle and I did about 3-4 couples sessions and since then we've gone seperately. Why? Because my transition issues aren't the same as Dani's.

I know that once you decide you need to transition, it's like opening the starting gate on a horse race. You want to go as fast as you possibly can.  Well, for us spouses, what you see as a snail's pace is still light speed to us. Danielle has waited on a lot of things for me, because she wants us to succeed. She waited an entire year before starting HRT, because I needed time. She waited to talk to me about things until I was ready. We spent an entire year repairing our relationship before proceeding with transition stuff. She's recently asked me if I was comfortable with her increasing her HRT dosage the next time she sees her doctor. Danielle's made a *lot* of compromises for me in her transition. I in turn have promised that I will make honest efforts to progress. And now we have an understanding that if I ask her to wait, it is not because I do not want her to transition or I want her to stop. It is because I need more time to deal with my own demons, and she knows that she will be able to continue.

I'm trying to give you a bit of perspective into what your wife is going through here. Some of it you probably didn't want to hear, but I do hope that perhaps it can give you some pointers on starting discussions. Transition doesn't necessarily mean the end of a relationship, but both sides do have to work at the relationship. I, for one, believe Dani's transition has helped our marriage.

If you (or your wife, if she'd like to correspond) have specific questions, feel free to ask or PM me. I'm on chat but mostly evenings. Dani and ping me if I'm gaming and you have questions. About the only subject I can't be much help on is how kids will take it. Our cat doesn't care as long as she gets fed and skritchies ;P

WR

I'm pretty much in agreement with Kate.  I feel your pain and many here do as we have been in similar circumstances.

Trying to work it out and bring your spouse along is wonderful, but both parties have to agree.  You could compromise on timeframes, but not goals.  Having her acknowledge that you must change would be a good first step.

As you know so many relationships dissolve because of this.  It takes real commitment to work through the issues of transition that affect the trans person and everyone in their life.  Family counselling can be very valuable in this regard.

Please know that we are all here for you and this is really a place to vent and commiserate.  And get advice as you have already found out...

-Sandy( :icon_bunch:)

Quote from: K8 on November 26, 2009, 08:21:35 AM
Well, Laura, once again I seem to be in the minority.  I really feel for you.  I hope you can work it all out - whatever that means.  You have a tough road for many reasons, far tougher than mine and probably tougher than many who offer you advice. 

Being in limbo is tough.  There is a tendency to make a decision - any decision - that will get you out of it, but usually if you can stick it out and work through it the right decision will become clear.  It is the process of getting there that is so frustrating, though.

You have always sounded like a very reasonable person, well-grounded despite our common problem.  You have to trust to your own judgement, especially since it has always seemed to be fairly sound.  You are the only one of us who knows your situation really well.  As long as you can see it with some clarity, you will make the right decisions for you.

Good luck, dear.  :icon_bunch:

- Kate

That bolded part is exactly the sort of insight I value so much in your posts.

Thanks for that. You are a blessing to me.

After reading your responses to the replies here I can see a few things about you. Forgive my bluntness:

You are desperately grasping and hanging onto that relationship. Not only that you are being avoiding your responsibility into matters. You implied you are waiting for your wife to react and to literally throw you out.

Try to think of how she IS feeling. Her husband is changing into something she didnt agreed to marry. And while some marriages DO survive I dont think yours would (at least if things continue the way they are) You need to act and move away from your tiny comfort zone and work things out with her IF you truly want to stay together.

Therapy its a must but again you seem to be letting all things to her. And if you arent then lose all hope because if she isnt willing to see things in another light, she wont ever accept your change with her next to you.


Your reactions are simply saying: I dont know what to do or think and I wont lift a finger to create more pain for me. And with that you are just looking for EXCUSES.

Take responsibility of your actions. You wanted to transition then face the consequences.


Sorry for the harshness and those are my last words on this topic. Take them as you wish and good luck Laura, I hope things really go well.

Quote from: Windrider on November 26, 2009, 09:23:42 AM
Yes, there are relationships that do survive transition. Danielle and I are hoping to be one of those. However, I do NOT see a key factor in your relationship that exists in mine (and others that have "survived"). I do not see your spouse making one iota of effort to *try* to accept things. No therapy, no discussions (arguments are NOT discussions), no discussions of middle grounds. Nothing. That is not the way a relationship works.

the reason I use the word "argument" and not discussions is not because they are stereotypical shouting matches - they are not. they are discussions in every sense EXCEPT in this key regard - they always start and end with the reality that it's a "no win scenario"

She CAN'T (so she believes) be content to adjust to the new reality and be reasonably happy (as one adjusts to a death of a spouse and moves on, for instance)

And I CAN'T (so I believe) give her back what she used to have.

So yes, they are discussions, but they are arguments in the sense that the two competing positions seem to have no easy resolution or middle ground.

As for therapy - she has (quite apart from our current situation) a real problem with going into Memphis. she HATES it. My therapist ask me yesterday if she would talk to her on the phone (which is something else that makes her uncomfortable - talking to a complete stranger on the phone) and she's considering it and I think, at some point, she will do so because she acknowledges she needs someone to talk to anyway and a therapist is someone she can trust not to have "a dog in the hunt" but it will just take some time for her to talk herself into it.

Quote
I would tend to agree with the person who said that all your wife sees is you dressing up like a woman and parading around town.

that's not an expression she has used, or alluded to. I believe she legitimately understands that this is not "dress up" but real identity issues. She hasn't said that much actually about what folks around town see - she doesn't like having to see it herself.

But a lot of the things she has expressed concern about (kids losing their daddy for instance) are not things which point to the "dressing up and parading around" paradigm.

QuoteI can totally see where that reaction is coming from and how it would lead to your wife's rather antagonistic reactions. You're worried about hurting your wife? I can tell you that you *are* hurting her right now.

Surely you are not under the impression that I'm unaware of that?

Quote
You've totally turned her life upside down and are wondering why she's not happy?

what EVER gave you the impression I'm WONDERING WHY?

I'm pretty much up to speed on how much she's hurting and why, and also about what it would take to attempt to remedy that.  Not only that, I have a firm grasp on the fact that it will probably get worse and why. I can't fathom why anyone would think I lack for knowledge or need this sort of thing explained to me.

furthermore, I wasn't taken by surprise by any of this. I was just venting about the conflicted feelings, not asking to have them explained.

Quote
Transition for the spouse is a much more "up front" process. By the time you come out to them, you've already dealt with the knowledge for years. For your wife, this just popped up out of nowhere. Speaking from experience, we have a lot of emotional, mental, and fact processing to do up front. We don't get the "benefit" of "dealing with this for years". There are a lot of things your wife needs to process - being perceived as a lesbian, what will family/children/coworkers/random strangers think, feelings of being 'lied' to or misled by you, seeing your transition as an 'attack' on her femininity/motherhood identity, what's going to happen next, fears about medications/surgery/change as a whole, where is the money coming from, and stuff that I probably can't think of. Your wife needs to make peace with most of this up front. Been there, done that. Twice in fact.

Right. I totally agree with (and have given a lot of consideration to) that. Please understand if I give the apperance of "taking offense" to your reply, I KNOW that you offer it with the best of intentions - but also please understand I'm NOT complaining about, or confused about, or ill-informed about her reactions and feelings. I have said repeatedly in this place and many more times than that that I PERFECTLY understand all those considerations and why she would feel as she does.

If she's surprised me at all it is in that she has worked so hard to try to tolerate me thus far.

To reiterate - the thread was simply supposed to be me venting about the emotional conflict that comes from knowing that easing my pain is causing her so much pain - knowing that someone IS going to be hurting no matter what road is chosen. There are not solutions for this reality, there are not answers which can be applied to fix things so no one hurts. But just because there's nothing out there which cures the pain doesn't mean somoene can't say from time to time "it hurts"

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This is where therapy and some of those compromises come in. Therapy is going to be key because you and your wife need to relearn how to communicate. The fact that you keep circling around the same argument without progress says you have communication issues. Therapy is going to help figure out where the problems are. Therapy is also going to give you and your wife a safe place to talk. Danielle and I did about 3-4 couples sessions and since then we've gone seperately. Why? Because my transition issues aren't the same as Dani's.

I know that once you decide you need to transition, it's like opening the starting gate on a horse race. You want to go as fast as you possibly can.  Well, for us spouses, what you see as a snail's pace is still light speed to us. Danielle has waited on a lot of things for me, because she wants us to succeed. She waited an entire year before starting HRT, because I needed time. She waited to talk to me about things until I was ready. We spent an entire year repairing our relationship before proceeding with transition stuff. She's recently asked me if I was comfortable with her increasing her HRT dosage the next time she sees her doctor. Danielle's made a *lot* of compromises for me in her transition. I in turn have promised that I will make honest efforts to progress. And now we have an understanding that if I ask her to wait, it is not because I do not want her to transition or I want her to stop. It is because I need more time to deal with my own demons, and she knows that she will be able to continue.

I think this is all good advice and it's appreciated. The hump we have to get over here is the question of whether or not I'll give it up. I don't have any trouble  adjusting the PACE or the timing so long as the basic question of whether or not I'm going to do it at all is in the rear-view. it's the uncertainty, for both of us, that is more painful than i would like it to be for either of us.

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I'm trying to give you a bit of perspective into what your wife is going through here. Some of it you probably didn't want to hear, but I do hope that perhaps it can give you some pointers on starting discussions.

I may be overly sensitive to the implication (unintended I'm sure) that i am obtuse to the issues she's trying to deal with. I have always had an irrational pet peeve about being told things I already know and that's my issue not yours.

That said, we have already discussed pretty much all the things you mentioned and I think I have a lot firmer grasp of why this is hard for her than she has of of what's going on in my head (she still labors under the illusion that this is more a "lifestyle choice" than an issue of identity because, I suppose, she was so strongly acculturated to believe that is what transsexualism is) - as i said above, the key issue that we "circle around" without resolving is the foundational point of whether or not I can continue or whether I must go back (or leave because I won't go back).

Once THAT point is settled firmly by one of three options:

a. I quit and put the mask back on
b. She accepts that i cannot quit and we resolve to rebuild our relationship in the new paradigm
c. I have to leave because neither of the first two will work

then everything else - timing and roles and so forth, can easily be worked out (it might not be easy for everyone but we are very good at that sort of "working things out" normally. Once we know where we are going, we have pretty good skills at agreeing how to get there)
That's not to say there won't be some pain and mourning along the way.

it's the "big question" that is the source of the tension right now.

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Transition doesn't necessarily mean the end of a relationship, but both sides do have to work at the relationship. I, for one, believe Dani's transition has helped our marriage.

If you (or your wife, if she'd like to correspond) have specific questions, feel free to ask or PM me. I'm on chat but mostly evenings. Dani and ping me if I'm gaming and you have questions. About the only subject I can't be much help on is how kids will take it. Our cat doesn't care as long as she gets fed and skritchies ;P

WR

I'd LOVE for her to develop a support network of friends who have gone through this before - but she's always been very reluctant to develop on-line friends and connections.

One of the things I have tried to encourage her about more than anything is to get some perspective on the situation by hearing some other voices besides the echo chamber she's stuck in now of people who are basically telling her she's been wronged and I ought not to be doing this to her and so forth.

Hopefully over time I can get her to give some consideration to chats or e-mails or phone calls with the therapists and with people who can say with credibility "I know how you feel" - but I can't say for sure.

I pray that all works out, but if that were true then I would be with my ex.  It really depends on her.  If she can accept you as you, then the future is bright.  But I know different. 

I only can pray you get the best, Hon.



Janet

I am a new newbie. I just read Susan's rules before I read this series of posts. I was surprised at the levels of criticism and unasked for advice. I really appreciated the heartfelt original post by Laura, and her careful responses to all that followed. I agree with K8. Thank you for sharing your transition/growing pains. It helps to know what others go through.

I want to give as much compassion as I hope to receive.

Quote from: Kendall on November 26, 2009, 08:20:01 PM
I am a new newbie. I just read Susan's rules before I read this series of posts. I was surprised at the levels of criticism and unasked for advice. I really appreciated the heartfelt original post by Laura, and her careful responses to all that followed. I agree with K8. Thank you for sharing your transition/growing pains. It helps to know what others go through.

I want to give as much compassion as I hope to receive.

Good for you, Kendall .


Janet

As a moderator, I feel that I have to put my two cents' worth in here. (I guess it's more like two bits, after inflation.)

I can appreciate the plain dealers in the audience, even when the remarks are particularly unvarnished. I can appreciate differing perspectives and the occasional misunderstandings that come with written communication. I can appreciate that sometimes a mere vent will garner unwanted advice. But I cannot appreciate the antagonistic tone in some of these responses.

This is a support site. Most of us--and I include myself here, because I've had a few DUH moments--need reminding of this from time to time. Please do everything in your power to avoid antagonistic, confrontational, and/or accusatory remarks. Certainly we sometimes want to ask probing questions, but most of the time we should try to temper such responses with a modicum of warmth, friendliness, and supportiveness. (Well, maybe not Tekla, plain dealer extraordinaire.)

Laura Hope is going through a rough period in her life, and that is the most important issue here. She's obviously capable of holding her own (which I admire; I would have blown my top a long time ago), but please don't attack her or become aggressive. That's uncalled for.

Never much saw any benefit in supporting people by not telling them the truth.  And I know Laura is isolated, no TG groups, or TG people to know, all she has is this.  But in near 30 years of support/social/political work with TG persons, IRL, I've never seen a marriage make it through.  Sure, there are some, at least I have read of some on the web.  Just like my 20 year old millionaire - but I wouldn't bet the farm on it.  So I always council that one ought to plan for the worst and perhaps be surprised.

There is a bit of dialog from Lawrence of Arabia that has always haunted me.  Sherif Ali tell Lawrence: "A man can do whatever he wants, you said."
And Lawrence's reply is: "He can, but he can't want what he wants."

Whatever the other spouse wants I think, as Lawrence said, is beyond their control, much less our control.  Control at any rate is but an illusion anyway which I think is what Lawrence was saying.

And people who have been following this know that there is other underlying tensions.  I was very lucky to have been told at a very early point in my life that 'you either find a lifestyle to match your politics, beliefs and values, or you find politics, beliefs and values to match your lifestyle.'  And Laura is going through a lot of that confusion also, which I'm sure also spills into this, as its not just a physical change, but I bet Laura is moving away from a lot of the beliefs and values that she previously shared with this woman.

That happens to all sorts of couples, its not just TG issues in divorce court.  Sad perhaps.  But true.  And, though its often for the best.  Many people, myself included get together much too young, and the changes, both internal and external, move through our lives and take us in different directions and you wake up one day and its just not there anymore.  But most people get through it, get over it, get on with it and often find even more happiness in the second go round, or perhaps even the third.

Life finds a way after all.

Unlike some, while I usually have an opinion about most matters, I do not have the absolute truth and do not for a minute believe I do. I have and continue to refrain from jumping into this particular thread, except:

1. Laura.  Hopefully everyone understands the pain your situation creates, for you and for your wife. Not all of us have undergone all of this, but many if not most have. Love to you and your wife.

2. It's amazing how a new person can cut through all the &#@$.  Thanks Kendall.  And thanks Janet and Arch; adult supervision arrives.

SusanKG

Quote from: Kendall on November 26, 2009, 08:20:01 PM
I am a new newbie. I just read Susan's rules before I read this series of posts. I was surprised at the levels of criticism and unasked for advice. I really appreciated the heartfelt original post by Laura, and her careful responses to all that followed. I agree with K8. Thank you for sharing your transition/growing pains. It helps to know what others go through.

I want to give as much compassion as I hope to receive.

thanks for that!

(((Kendall)))

Perhaps, then, the adults could chime in with their sage advice about how they saved their marriages. 

And I don't think it's ever compassion to tell people that it's going to be OK, when it's not.  That's how you deal with children, not adults.

No one wants to hurt the people they love, but, in the end, those are the only people we ever can and do hurt.

Quote from: tekla on November 26, 2009, 11:25:28 PM
Perhaps, then, the adults could chime in with their sage advice about how they saved their marriages. 

And I don't think it's ever compassion to tell people that it's going to be OK, when it's not.  That's how you deal with children, not adults.

No one wants to hurt the people they love, but, in the end, those are the only people we ever can and do hurt.

i have to agree with this tekla can be harsh but sometimes the truth hurts
jessica

Quote from: tekla on November 26, 2009, 11:25:28 PM
And I don't think it's ever compassion to tell people that it's going to be OK, when it's not.  That's how you deal with children, not adults.

There's always a possibility that Laura's marriage will stay intact. Okay, yeah, it may be a slim possibility. But it's rather presumptuous to assume that the marriage is doomed. I know of several relationships--a couple of them I only know about secondhand--that survived transition. How long they will eventually last is anyone's guess, but I could say that about a lot of non-trans relationships.

I don't advocate false optimism. I'm not arguing that we should all join hands and tell Laura that everything will turn out the way she wants. But there is a big difference between a post that politely states a point of view and one that is overly aggressive and confrontational. The former might offer food for thought; the latter usually raises hackles and either hurts people's feelings or pisses them off--or both. In my experience, most people don't think as effectively when they're busy being defensive, and they sure as heck don't feel supported. It's not that hard to state the "truth"--as we see it--in a fairly positive fashion.

I see no reason to attack one of our own in a support site. We, especially the women, get enough kicking from transphobic bigots.

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Post Merge: November 27, 2009, 03:12:07 AM

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Quote from: jesse on November 27, 2009, 02:26:13 AM
i have to agree with this tekla can be harsh but sometimes the truth hurts

I do not get the impression that Laura is blinded by any illusions about the probability that her marriage will survive if she transitions. Also bear in mind that nobody knows for sure what will happen. Oh, and for the record, I didn't have Tekla in mind when I posted. I don't know if anyone else did.

The theater I work at opened in May of 1922.  There have been over 10,000 shows there (not counting movies).  I've done Guns 'N Roses and Green Day with full pyrotechnic displays there.  In all that time, and through all that, its never caught fire.  Yet, every night, 1/2 hour before doors, I walk the entire structure, (about 25% of a city block, four stories tall) and check every single fire exit.  I check to make sure the descending fire stairs will fall, and that nothing is blocking them.  I plan for the worst.  Even when the odds of a fire are, given the history, 0. 

The odds here are much higher, so it would be prudent at the very least to consider the other options. 

Quote from: tekla on November 27, 2009, 08:00:42 AM
The odds here are much higher, so it would be prudent at the very least to consider the other options.

Absolutely.

Laura
I feel your pain.  We all go through some kind of wall. Choices are very hard to make, but we must.  I am going through the same thing now.  Remember you have already made your choice. You may have some control in the outcome, but not what you are. That will never change. LOL
Sarah

I tried to bite my tongue here, especially when the cavalry arrived given that it's very easy to sound defensive but let me just make a couple of observations:

First, how on earth anyone could read the OP and come away thinking "this person is too optimistic" is pretty darned strange to me.

I wrote the post BECAUSE I could see the possibility of a negative outcome and I get replies telling me, essentially, "of course you are going to get a negative outcome"

The idea here is just to say "man it hurts" not to be told I'm somehow deluded. One can EASILY "plan for the worst" on an intellectual basis and STILL say "damn it hurts" when the worst happens.

It's not that "plan for the worst" is bad advice - on the contrary it's EXCELLENT advice. The problem is, when a friend comes to you and says "this thing (whatever it is) is tearing me up inside" that's NOT the time when you start proving how you have all the right answers.  They didn't come asking for answers.

I sometimes think that some of us (myself included on some occasions perhaps) are so bound up in showing how many answers we know that we throw them out even when there's no question.

Second, the object in my chosen method of handling my relationship is to keep as many options open as long as possible. I don't think I'm the only one who's ever made a decision before I had to and then found out later that doing so had foreclosed an alternative that in hindsight would have worked out better.

I don't see why (good) advice like "be ready for the worst" necessarily translates to "run headlong and embrace the worst option as fast as you can"

Even if I'm going to arrive at an outcome I don't like, there are still alternatives ways to reach that conclusion

(to wit: one can be divorced from a person who remains your friend and be on good terms as co-operating parners in the parenting job - OR one can be totally alienated from an ex who hates you and both are a source of years of anger and bitterness for the other...even though the divorce is the "bad outcome" it doesn't have to be the "worst" divorce either)

Haste to accept the "inevitability" of the separation will almost certainly make things worse. IMHO.

Very eloquently put, Laura!

-Sandy

Hugs Laura.  I know it is hard for you, having been there myself.  I can only be here as a sister and a shoulder to cry on. 

You may remain together, it does happen.  I can only pray for both of you.



Janet

Quote from: Laura Hope on November 27, 2009, 05:01:40 PM
First, how on earth anyone could read the OP and come away thinking "this person is too optimistic" is pretty darned strange to me.

I honestly think that most people need to read more carefully. They often read in what they want to see or what they think is there instead of what's actually on the page.

Quote from: Laura Hope on November 27, 2009, 05:01:40 PM
It's not that "plan for the worst" is bad advice - on the contrary it's EXCELLENT advice. The problem is, when a friend comes to you and says "this thing (whatever it is) is tearing me up inside" that's NOT the time when you start proving how you have all the right answers.  They didn't come asking for answers.

Exactly.

It's pretty much inevitable that you will get some advice that you didn't want--even if you specifically said you didn't want any. But there is a big difference between a rant/vent/expression of emotion and a request for advice.

Quote from: Laura Hope on November 27, 2009, 05:01:40 PM
Haste to accept the "inevitability" of the separation will almost certainly make things worse. IMHO.

If we all did this, then NO relationships would survive transition. And some do.

You go, girl.

I think,like most fo us, that we will remain the same person. In our mind that is true. All of the poeple who know you say no. You can not be the same person I know that person is a brother, father, husband, son... Now you are saying You want be be a WOMAN. I don't know that person.
No one said life is easy. Making choices like this is very heart breaking for all involved. I wish you the very best.
thinking of you
Sarah

Personally, I think books are the solution to any problem. :laugh:

My Husband Betty: Love, Sex, and Life with a Crossdresser (2003) - Helen Boyd * Amazon (http://www.amazon.com/dp/1560255153) * WorldCat (http://www.worldcat.org/oclc/53955619)

While this is more geared to wives dealing with crossdressers, I still feel that it is the best for SO's feelings.
Maybe your wife could read it? Feeling justified in being angry might help her through to the other side.

One of the problems she has coping is this whole concept of "sides"

If "non-believers" (in ->-bleeped-<-) have a conversation with her, they are all of course of the opinion that I need to "straighten up" and quit acting a fool. I'm not taking any position against her talking to those folks if she wants to because I think she needs SOME outlet to talk, even if it's just an amen choir.

BUT

If she has the chance to talk to a therapist or anyone else who's relatively supportive of my choice, then she sees no value in talking to them because "they are just on my side anyway"

I think pretty much any input she gets is going to be filtered like that - input which is designed to equip her to live with the new paradigm is, by definition, unhelpful because she really doesn't want to have to live with it.

Still, we had a pretty decent holiday weekend with a lot less drama than we'd had lately so....

I dunno.

One day at a time, hun.  One day at a time.

- Kate :icon_flower:

"Time heals all wounds"
As Kate said one day at a time
Sarah