Susan's Place Transgender Resources

Hey guys I went to my consultation with Dr. McGinn a few days ago and she recommended that I go on T cream instead of injecting but I really would rather inject just because I have a girlfriend and I would rather not have to worry about the cream transferring to her. Also I would much rather inject every week than have to put cream on twice a day. She seemed really annoyed by this but said that I could do what I want. SHe kept talking about all these bad side effects. So i was wondering, are the side effects really that bad?

It also came down to cost, 50 for a few months or 50 a month is a big deal.

Uh... apart from the effects T is supposed to give, I haven't noticed averse side-effects >_< on the odd occassion a bruise might develop or the muscle is sore for a while (usually not longer than a day or so) and those effects get less and less as time goes on and I become a more fine-tuned injecter.

Quote from: Carson on December 07, 2009, 06:13:00 AM
She seemed really annoyed by this but said that I could do what I want.

Um, on the face of it, this doesn't sound very professional.

Quote from: Renate on December 07, 2009, 06:45:01 AM
Um, on the face of it, this doesn't sound very professional.

Yeah I was really turned off by her attitude about it but there really isn't anyone else in my area as specialized as her to go to. Also it took my months to get an appointment with her and I just want to get started not have to start the whole process over again. And apparently she was annoyed enough to put me on a full dose right away which she never does according to my therapist.

as i recall, you absorb less T with cream than you make use of when injecting. seems more bad side effects from the cream or gels to me. dry skin for one.

what side effects? as others mentioned, sometimes there's a little soreness at the injection site and occasionally the needle will hurt going in and sometimes it bleeds a little. But most of the time everything goes smoothly. The cream sounds like more hassle to me.

Yeah I really didn't want to have to worry about putting cream on everyday.

Apparently the acne is worse and the T levels don't stay as consistent but she put me on a weekly shot which most guys say pretty much alleviates the problem of T levels fluctuating.

idk what she meant about side effects from the injection, but the benefits of T cream (used directly on your junk) can have major benefits if you want more growth.  im currently on both.

Quote from: Josh on December 07, 2009, 09:11:47 AM
idk what she meant about side effects from the injection, but the benefits of T cream (used directly on your junk) can have major benefits if you want more growth.  im currently on both.

I really wanted to do that but I am just worried about it transferring to my girlfriend so I have settled on pumping (as soon as I get the equipment).

yea, that sucks. :/  might be a huge pain (with chance of huge results haha) but you might be able to apply it, wait however long it needs to absorb, then wash the area.

Quote from: Josh on December 07, 2009, 09:17:41 AM
yea, that sucks. :/  might be a huge pain (with chance of huge results haha) but you might be able to apply it, wait however long it needs to absorb, then wash the area.

Do you think that would work? like put it on in the morning and wait and then wash it? Also, do you think it's worth it? Sorry if this is too personal.

im not sure how easily it washes off or how long it takes for most of it to be absorbed, but in theory it would work. :P

i was pretty much at a stand still, then i started using it and ive grown about 1/4 inch.  i used it consistently for about 1.5 months then sort of trailed off. >_<  i should really get back on that.

Quote from: Olly on December 07, 2009, 11:54:54 AM
It's worth finding out if your Doc is being encouraged to promote T cream over shots. The pharm company may be funding her to promote their product.

If she had taken it farther and actually argued with me then maybe I would have. But as it were she DID end up prescribing me exactly what I wanted so it wasn't that big of a deal I was just really curious to see if anyone had actually had really bad side effects.

In the end I told her that I just couldn't afford the T cream so it was really a non issue.

I don't know whether it is the oil or how much is absorbed, maybe a combination of both but I agree, if there were really major issues with injecting I don't think that the majority of guys would inject.

Quote from: Carson on December 07, 2009, 06:13:00 AM
Hey guys I went to my consultation with Dr. McGinn a few days ago and she recommended that I go on T cream instead of injecting but I really would rather inject just because I have a girlfriend and I would rather not have to worry about the cream transferring to her. Also I would much rather inject every week than have to put cream on twice a day. She seemed really annoyed by this but said that I could do what I want. SHe kept talking about all these bad side effects. So i was wondering, are the side effects really that bad?

It also came down to cost, 50 for a few months or 50 a month is a big deal.

The side-effects of injecting testosterone are few, but here they are to the best of my knowledge:

* it's suspended in either soya or sesame oil (depending on the brand), so if you're allergic to either, the reaction can vary.  I have a soya allergy and until I made sure my chemist knew this (I had previously assumed that they did), injections would make me itch for days, at which point they switched me to a brand that uses sesame; but my allergy is pretty mild.
* injecting hormones gives you "hormone highs" on the day and day after injecting and "hormone lows" on the last day or two before injecting again, whereas cream gives you an even level that does not have highs or lows.  The effects of hormone highs and lows are well-documented, but many are variable -- like mood.  On the other hand, highs and lows in one's testosterone cycle can put one at a markedly increased risk for ovarian cysts or even cancer, and so doctors tend to recommend the cream to younger TS guys, just to reduce the risk to one's reproductive organs, in case one realises that they really aren't TS.

That's pretty much all i know of off the top of my head, aside from obvious stuff like "sore at the injection spot".

Quote from: Renate on December 07, 2009, 06:45:01 AM
Um, on the face of it, this doesn't sound very professional.

May not seem very diplomatic, but professionals tend to have an aversion to having their professional advice questioned.  LOL

Quote from: Carson on December 07, 2009, 09:14:08 AM
I really wanted to do that but I am just worried about it transferring to my girlfriend so I have settled on pumping (as soon as I get the equipment).

Wait...  pumping your junk?  o_O

Quote from: Josh on December 07, 2009, 09:25:22 AM
im not sure how easily it washes off or how long it takes for most of it to be absorbed, but in theory it would work. :P

i was pretty much at a stand still, then i started using it and ive grown about 1/4 inch.  i used it consistently for about 1.5 months then sort of trailed off. >_<  i should really get back on that.

so you can really do that?! that is awesome! once I'm on T I want as much growth as possible (obviously) lol.  Do you have to wash it off?

What side effects was she mentioning?

You know what they say, doctor knows best. Lol but you should also be able have a choice.

Yeah, that cost difference is a big deal.

Quote from: YoungSoulRebel on December 07, 2009, 10:22:37 PM
Wait...  pumping your junk?  o_O

Yeah apparently it helps growth like crazy as long as you are consistent with it. As soon as I start T and have enough growth I plan on pumping.

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Post Merge: December 08, 2009, 06:03:10 AM

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Quote from: Elijah on December 07, 2009, 10:37:26 PM
Do you have to wash it off?

You don't HAVE to wash it off as long as you don't have a girlfriend going down there. I just was wondering if it would wash off so it wouldn't transfer to my gf.

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Post Merge: December 08, 2009, 07:07:23 AM

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Quote from: ccc on December 07, 2009, 11:02:47 PM
What side effects was she mentioning?

You know what they say, doctor knows best. Lol but you should also be able have a choice.

Yeah, that cost difference is a big deal.

Well I don't want o blame it on the fact that she is MtF but... she was really biased which I can understand as a person being MtF and being disgusted by the changes that T gives people but as a doctor?... I wasn't very enthused. She was talking about how I'm going to smell bad.To which I responded, "No I won't smell bad, I'll smell different, providing I shower every day." and she said hair loss, and "gross hair all over my face". And I just said that those all sound great to me. I think she was mainly talking about the T level fluctuation and the acne but I don't think that they are as serious as she was saying they were. Especially because she put me on weekly shots. She also talked about heart problems and bone problems but she had already told me to start taking calcium and vitamin D for those because of my family history.

Quote from: Carson on December 08, 2009, 07:01:54 AMYeah apparently it helps growth like crazy as long as you are consistent with it. As soon as I start T and have enough growth I plan on pumping.

You mean, like, with a penis pump, right?  I find this claim highly suspect.  Studies on men with actual dicks have proved no significant growth, and that "enthusiastic pumping" can rupture blood vessels, blister, and cause temporary damage to erectile tissue (and temporary damage may become permanent when people aren't careful).

As for anything related to FTM men specifically, the only article i was able to find that actually seemed both relevant and realistic is this one (http://www.otherbear.com/pump.html), which recommends pumping as a masturbatory aid and also warns:

Don't get too excited, you aren't going to grow 4" or anything like that fantasy number that may be floating around your grey matter. Mileage varies from user to user. No one can guarantee that it will work or that your money will be well  spent. In fact, improper usage can do more harm than good. Ligaments are capable of being torn, tissue can be bruised or abraded. Before deciding whether to make an investment in one of these products there are a variety of factors that you should analyze.

...

If you have had phalloplasty or metaoidioplasty, my suggestion is that you either pass or consult your physician. There is really no telling what effect pumping could have on the scar tissue. Impatience and an overzealous nature are also indicators that this activity may not be for you as the likelihood for overusage and injury increase. If you have limited spending cash, are saving up for surgery, or are looking for guarantees, you may want to reconsider spending your money.

Seriously, I advise against it.  The only "guaranteed" growth is temporary (it'll return to normal in a couple hours, tops), and prolonged use has the risk of doing more harm than good -- especially if you expect it to "help growth like crazy", cos that'll make you more likely to go overboard.

I'm also highly suspect of the idea that rubbing androgel on one's junk actually makes a significant difference in growth from either a) applying anywhere else or, b) injections (or injections alone, apparently). 

As intriguing as the notion of having anything bigger than what I've got after a year and change on HRT is (or, later on, two year or three years -- take it from a slut [that would be me], a lot of cis- men end up "bigger below the belt" at around twenty or so then they were at sixteen, so the idea that continued HRT may continue growth for another year or so isn't far-fetched), and as somebody who may just trip over a big pile of money on his way to work one day and get that meta-, the idea of dropping ~$35 (or more) on something that 1) is not a guarantee for TS men, 2) has proven no significant effects on cis- men, and 3) in both cases, carries the potential of doing more harm than good doesn't sound like money well spent, if you ask me.

Of course, far be it from me to tell you how to spend your money, but seriously, don't assume it's a great idea just cos a few guys on the tubes told you it "worked like crazy" for them -- they may be telling the truth, but there's also the possibility that, as with cis- men who swear by their pumps, any permanent growth "experienced" is simply all in their head and not real.

As for the T highs & lows that depends. If your getting a shot once a week that reduces the extremes of T high & lows since T stays in your body 7-10 days. I inject every week and have no problems with highs & lows, but I've heard of guys who do who inject every 2-3 weeks and have issues. The cream does keep your levels consistent through the week but injections don't automatically mean your going to have fluctuation issues.

Pumping does work. Trust me on this. ;) You start with using the nipple pumps and once you get too much girth and length to use it you can use the smallest penis cylinder. That seems to work well for me. When pumping you do need to follow advice and be sure you're not over pumping because of possible damage (blisters, bruising, ect.). It won't make you huge but, if done properly and consistently, it can cause permanent increase. This is my experience- YMMV.

Quote from: Radar on December 08, 2009, 10:04:37 AMPumping does work. Trust me on this. ;)

I'll trust you on this when you can produce conclusive data; until then, I'll trust that you believe it "works", but people believe in a lot of goofiness that doesn't actually work -- I once saw a woman on a talk show who swore up and down that talking to her breasts made them grow, just as an example of some of this goofiness.

What we need more of is science.

Quote from: Carson on December 08, 2009, 07:01:54 AM

Well I don't want to blame it on the fact that she is MtF but... she was really biased which I can understand as a person being MtF and being disgusted by the changes that T gives people but as a doctor?... I wasn't very enthused. She was talking about how I'm going to smell bad.To which I responded, "No I won't smell bad, I'll smell different, providing I shower every day." and she said hair loss, and "gross hair all over my face". And I just said that those all sound great to me. I think she was mainly talking about the T level fluctuation and the acne but I don't think that they are as serious as she was saying they were. Especially because she put me on weekly shots. She also talked about heart problems and bone problems but she had already told me to start taking calcium and vitamin D for those because of my family history.

Sounds like a biased doctor to me, trying to convince you oherwise and make you think you don't really want it. Which sucks, because you need a doctor that wants what you want and looks for the best and safest possibilites for you.

Quote from: Kvall on December 08, 2009, 06:39:13 PM
YoungSoulRebel -- A lot of metoidioplasty surgeons recommend pumping prior to surgery. Long-term pumping does produce permanent results because it stretches the genital tissues; not as big as the temporary growth, of course, but significant growth in any case. There is even cis female porn dedicated to this. And yes, doing it too much or too forcefully will do more harm than good.

Cite your source on that?  If you have something that actually counters what I've cited (with science!), I may just reconsider, but so far all of you people insisting that penis pumps "really really work" have yet to support your claims with more than hear-say and "personal anecdotes" which, as I've explained, are unreliable.

Quote from: Kvall on December 08, 2009, 08:05:52 PMYes, it is true that there aren't any studies (that I know of), but the lack of them means that we should probably listen to those doctors who have noticed a difference in post-op result dependent on pumping or not pumping. Anecdote adds to that in lieu of studies.

No, there are studies:
http://www.urotoday.com/browse_categories/erectile_dysfunction/pump_fails_to_increase_penis_size.html (http://www.urotoday.com/browse_categories/erectile_dysfunction/pump_fails_to_increase_penis_size.html)
"The vacuum device does not seem to be a useful method for penile elongation," Dr. Hosseini's team concludes, "but it provides psychological satisfaction for some men."  (This makes it very clear that while results were physically negligible, those who took part in the study believed their penises gained significant growth.  This is proof that anecdotes cannot be trusted!)


http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/penis/MC00026 (http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/penis/MC00026)
Marketers offer many different types of nonsurgical penis-enlargement treatments, and often promote them with serious-looking advertisements that include endorsements from "scientific" researchers. But if you look and read closely, you'll see that claims of safety and effectiveness aren't proven. No reputable scientific research endorses or supports any type of nonsurgical penis enlargement. So, marketers rely on testimonials, skewed data and before-and-after photos that often aren't authentic.


Testimonials aren't science.  Most meta- surgeons also do not appear to recommend it (http://www.ftmguide.org/grs.html#meta).  Dr. A. Neal Wilson suggested I "shower as normal" with my nipple grafts, but that only caused them to fall off (I found out at the ER that getting skin grafts wet is the worst thing one could do) -- so yeah, you were able to find two surgeons who don't read the studies, whoop-itty-doo; "it's not hard to find surgeons who recommend complete nonsense if only because it's not hard to find surgeons who think they know everything" (quote goes to my physician, Dr. Pamela Rockwell, DO).

I mean, let's also ignore the fact that in cis- men, penis growth continues throughout puberty (which actually lasts several years) and often enough into one's early twenties -- often enough, an addition inch in length and half- or three-quarters-inch in girth can be gained by cis- men in the years between ages sixteen through twenty-two.  There is thus no concrete reason to believe that any actual growth is related to anything more than the basic effects of HRT -- much less that any perceived growth is, well, actual (much less significant).

But as I said previously, if you think it's money well-spent, feel free to spend it.  Far be it from me to tell one what one should and should not do with one's bank account.  I just don't believe it's cool to fill other people's heads with pipe dreams that doing X will give them specific results, especially when there's not a shred of science to support it.  Anecdotes cannot be trusted.  The lack of studies on FTM men in general only suggests, at best, a correlation between using a penis pump and added length -- but correlation does NOT equal causation, and the evidence that does exist suggest no genuine cause/effect relationship.

Quote from: YoungSoulRebel on December 08, 2009, 02:47:36 PM
I'll trust you on this when you can produce conclusive data; until then, I'll trust that you believe it "works", but people believe in a lot of goofiness that doesn't actually work

So... because you don't believe it works it doesn't work? Hmm. I guess my eyes and measurements are wrong. You can believe it or not, I don't care.

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Post Merge: December 09, 2009, 07:58:40 AM

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Quote from: Kvall on December 08, 2009, 06:39:13 PMYoungSoulRebel -- A lot of metoidioplasty surgeons recommend pumping prior to surgery. Long-term pumping does produce permanent results because it stretches the genital tissues; not as big as the temporary growth, of course, but significant growth in any case. There is even cis female porn dedicated to this. And yes, doing it too much or too forcefully will do more harm than good.

He refuses to believe it can be possible so no use arguing. It is true results vary and it may or may not work. There are no guaranties... but that's true with everything in life.

Quote from: YoungSoulRebel on December 08, 2009, 07:50:41 AM
I'm also highly suspect of the idea that rubbing androgel on one's junk actually makes a significant difference in growth from either a) applying anywhere else or, b) injections (or injections alone, apparently)

umm... im not sure what to say about this except youre just plain wrong.  you throw big words at the simple villagers, but theyre all smart enough to know when youre bull->-bleeped-<-ting.  you remind me of mister.  but he was usually right when he shoved "information" in peoples faces.

besides, i put hand sanitizer on my junk because i heard that it burned and i didnt believe it because it doesnt hurt your hands.  well guess what... I THOUGHT IT WAS ON FIRE AND I ALMOST CRIED.  know what else?  ANDROGEL IS ALCOHOL BASED.  yea, if anyone was stupid enough to put androgel on their junk... well... the burn is enough punishment.

i use T CREAM on my willie.  when used there, more of it converts to DHT.  DHT has been proven to help with testicle growth (i know we dont have those, but it works on the balls with bio guys), penis growth, body hair growth, and facial hair growth.  as well as contributing to male pattern baldness if you are predisposed to it.

and i know youre going to throw a fit because im not citing sources, but i got this information (as well as info on growth hormones, but thats a different thread) from the databases at the University of Missouri which i no longer have access to.  i do however have pictoral proof of my growth.  its in the pre-surgery folder on the FTM surgery yahoo group.

Quote from: Josh on December 09, 2009, 09:54:30 AMyou remind me of mister.  but he was usually right when he shoved "information" in peoples faces.

Ironically he's the one I learned pumping about since he does/did pump with great results. Of course he was also on HGH. He helped me out with pumping info too.

Quote from: Radar on December 09, 2009, 10:39:46 AM
Ironically he's the one I learned pumping about since he does/did pump with great results. Of course he was also on HGH. He helped me out with pumping info too.

I didn't know that he was on HGH but didn't he get to like a bit over 4 inches?

Quote from: Carson on December 09, 2009, 11:38:25 AMI didn't know that he was on HGH but didn't he get to like a bit over 4 inches?

IIRC he said he's just under the normal size for bio-males, but I don't think he gave an actual measurement.

Quote from: Radar on December 09, 2009, 07:55:52 AM
So... because you don't believe it works it doesn't work? Hmm. I guess my eyes and measurements are wrong. You can believe it or not, I don't care.

If you can produce some genuine conclusive data that says it works, I'll believe it.  Our eyes often deceive us.

Quote from: Radar on December 09, 2009, 07:55:52 AMHe refuses to believe it can be possible so no use arguing. It is true results vary and it may or may not work. There are no guaranties... but that's true with everything in life.

Well, if my water bill is paid up, there's a guarantee that if I go to the tap and turn it, then water will come out.  If I get up from this chair and walk to the bathroom, there's a guarantee that I'd've travelled thiry feet in distance.  Point being: there are guarantees in life, denying that there are is not a valid means of "proving" your argument.

Um, even though penises and clitorises are isomorphic, there are differences.
That pumping does not effectively work on penises does not prove anything in regard to clitorises.
Some natal women have pumped their clitorises and achieved some results.
You don't have to be too creative in a search to find documentation of this on the internet.
The same applies to nipples.
Caveat: Pumping your toes will not lengthen them.

Quote from: Renate on December 09, 2009, 05:19:26 PM
Um, even though penises and clitorises are isomorphic, there are differences.
That pumping does not effectively work on penises does not prove anything in regard to clitorises.
Some natal women have pumped their clitorises and achieved some results.
You don't have to be too creative in a search to find documentation of this on the internet.
The same applies to nipples.
Caveat: Pumping your toes will not lengthen them.

Women in the body building community also get an enlarged clitoris from steroid use.

I'm just saying I don't believe that combining the two will produce "real ultimate power".  There are too many variables and inconclusive correlations.  But whatever, people are obviously going to do what they want, anyway.

Quote from: YoungSoulRebel on December 09, 2009, 05:13:21 PMIf you can produce some genuine conclusive data that says it works, I'll believe it.  Our eyes often deceive us.

Eyes are deceiving, but last I knew centimetres and inches were pretty acurate. Now, if you want me to post a photo you're out of luck. Ain't gonna happen just to prove to you something. No, you won't get "real ultimate power" or a huge dick. I'm just saying it does make a difference for some people. You don't believe based on articles, I believe it's possible through experience. I believe we're finished here. This has already been thread jacked from the OP. I say we get back on track.

BTW- Science proclaims that the bumblebee shouldn't be able to fly- but it does. There are many things that do exist that science hasn't been able to explain yet. If you live your life on strictly scientific evidence for the existence of anything you will live a discouraging life.

Quote from: YoungSoulRebel on December 09, 2009, 05:13:21 PM
Well, if my water bill is paid up, there's a guarantee that if I go to the tap and turn it, then water will come out.

what if theres a broken pipe just down the block?  or your payment was lost in the mail?  if the electricity is out and you have an electric pump, your faucet wont run water.  good try though. :)

Quote from: YoungSoulRebel on December 09, 2009, 05:13:21 PM
If I get up from this chair and walk to the bathroom, there's a guarantee that I'd've travelled thiry feet in distance.

what if youre at your neighbors house and their bathroom is 22 feet from the chair you used?  or maybe once again you had a problem with your running water and had to go somewhere else to use the toilet?  that one was better than the last example, but no cigar yet.

Okay, as much as I'd love to jump in on this all-out rumble, I'll refrain for the moment....

I've noticed no adverse effects from injecting T, apart from bruising and personal apprehension about doing injections. Dude's doctor is a little batty and going from adverse personal experience, if you ask me.

SD