Susan's Place Transgender Resources

This is for pre opp females..

Do you masturbate?

I'm not trying to be a pervert here, bust doesnt estrogen keep you from having erections, I mean, how do you guys deal with it?

As a guy, even a pre T guy, I have a pretty high sex drive, and I'm able to masturbate, just to get off, but my body doesnt turn me on.

anyway, just curious

Once you're on a decent HRT regimen your libido may drop.
Many report it crashing to the ground, some report maintaining some sort of libido.
The lowered libido is more a result of lowered testosterone than an increase in estrogen.
Sometimes the testosterone levels go lower than that of a natal woman.
(Even natal women are known to have libidos. :laugh: )

There are a few reasons to masturbate while pre-op.
Libido plays less of a role in some cases.
There is an old wives' tale that maintaining continuous experience of orgasms makes it easier to have them post-op.
Nobody knows if this is actually true or not.
Another reason is the atrophy and shrinking of the skin on the "raw material".
Although insufficient material for SRS is not commonly a problem, the threat of having to have a skin graft is cause for concern for many.
There is a tendency in younger people for the skin to shrink if not stretched in some way periodically.

Quote from: Renate on December 09, 2009, 05:36:56 PM
Once you're on a decent HRT regimen your libido may drop.
Many report it crashing to the ground, some report maintaining some sort of libido.
The lowered libido is more a result of lowered testosterone than an increase in estrogen.
Sometimes the testosterone levels go lower than that of a natal woman.
(Even natal women are known to have libidos. :laugh: )

There are a few reasons to masturbate while pre-op.
Libido plays less of a role in some cases.
There is an old wives' tale that maintaining continuous experience of orgasms makes it easier to have them post-op.
Nobody knows if this is actually true or not.
Another reason is the atrophy and shrinking of the skin on the "raw material".
Although insufficient material for SRS is not commonly a problem, the threat of having to have a skin graft is cause for concern for many.
There is a tendency in younger people for the skin to shrink if not stretched in some way periodically.

so you just dont get horny anymore, do you miss the libido?

yes, and yes.  I deal with it by masturbating anyway.  That sort of silly sounding saying that the biggest sex organ is the one between your ears?  Not entirely false.  If I'm really turned on, really into it, it still works.  It's harder to get to that point, and it can be frustrating sometimes, so that's not usually the primary goal of either masturbating or sex.  I can have these little orgasms that don't even require an erection, so I was a little skeptical of them at first, but yep, they're orgasms.  And they're nice in their way.  Stars and comets are reserved for special occasions.  ;)

HRT killed a lot of my sex drive, etc etc. but like I was telling Nicky in a different thread, it didn't totally disappear, and once my levels got stable, some of it came back.  It's also different than before: as a guy sex was on my mind all the time.  Now it's just in the back, always there but not as prominent or important as it used to be. 

My GID killed off my sex drive a long time ago.  I sometime will but I usually had an erotic dream and yes I was a total woman in it.  But it isn't like 'guys' do, they are few and far between.



Blessed Be
Janet

Can I dissent with the prevailing opinion once again? There is such a thing as a healthy female libido. And it's not the same thing as "no desire to masturbate."

My sex drive has changed a LOT due to hormones, but it's not like I don't have one. And it's not like I don't enjoy masturbation either.

In some ways it's not the same, and I get the sense that a lot of others want to make that clear. It's not. Agreed.

But in some other ways... well it's kind of alike. And you CAN do it before and after hormones here. There is a huge difference in frequency and urgency. But otherwise... it still applies. At least to me.

okay I'm not on hormones (yet!!) so that for context...

I haven't had a "think about sex all the time" libido for...heck I can't remember how long. At least, if that means "think about me having sex all the time"

My GID manifests in kind of a weird way in terms of my sexual activity. I'm capable of it, and enjoy it when it happens, but when I "think about sex" I think of the sort of sex women who are the sort of women I'd like to be are having" if that makes any sense. I don't have the imagination to think of myself as the woman entierly, nor do I specifically crave the attention of men...but if I watch some porn or something I'm thinking something like "I'd like to be doing what she's doing"

So thinking about sex but not specifically thinking "I need to go have sex"

So, anyway, with that said - If the wife is feeling receptive and i get the chance, we have sex (and I'm not the sort who is so revolted by the "bits" that i want nothing to do with them)

Likewise, If I'm doing something - washing or shaving or some such - in which I physically stimulate the bits and the process gets started, I'm not above finishing it off.

I figure it's probably a good thing to be open and willing to do that sort of thing because if what they tell me about a regular stretching being a good thing if there's a long time between the start of HRT and/or orchie and the actual SRS, then I should be mentally ready to give the bits some attention every week or two, right?

Even if I'm not "horny"

for me it has diminished a lot but it still works when i want it to the feeling is different but there none the less im only 5 weeks hrt though
jessica

ewwwwwwwwwwwwwww! with that?! give me an hatchet and let someone else have "fun" with it @@..

My levels are off at the moment, going to the doctor next week to fix it, but...

Once in a while I masturbate.  I'm usually not in the mood to do that though.  BUT.  I find that although I am not "horny" in the sense of getting an erection, I AM constantly finding myself fantasizing about being with a man and having that contact.  So it's not so much that I am physically turned on all the time, it's more like I'm mentally in heat.

Okay that makes me sound like I am a horny person, hahaha.  I just crave physical contact, I think.  It's a very different feeling from being male.  It's still "sexual" but the feelings are quite different.  I actually like them.  I don't feel like an animal anymore, I just feel like a woman with healthy sexual desires.  Yess!!

Quote from: Maiden on December 10, 2009, 04:26:29 AM
I'm mentally in heat.

That's an awesome quote. I was having issues with waking up in the mood so I moved my last dose closer to bedtime. It wasn't that bad really, I was just a little disconcerted by it. Either way I couldn't be bothered with it because as weird as it sounds fooling around alone actualy makes me more lonely. Anyway that cleared up the physical desire but yeah, the mental one is still there.

In heat, lol I like that  :icon_dribble:

Quote from: beth~chella on December 09, 2009, 05:33:47 PM

in my case, I don't really get erections anymore, and when I do it's just a 'semi' at best.  I masturbate in a similar fashion to a cisgendered girl. I'm very small down there and even the main bits can be tucked away to sorta act the same way as a clitoris and hood do.

I'm like beth and achieve what can only be described as a female orgasm to put a finer word on it, lol. Sensation lasts several minutes and is across the body. So its different but soooooooooo much better, lol. I thought I was the only one who could do that, lol even said to my counsellor who hadn't a clue how or what I was describing because I wanted to know if what I was experiencing was a female orgasm. I came to the conclusion as its so different from a male one it must be.

Stardust

Yes I do, more often then I have sex with my wife, which is more a matter of her handicap - pain from arthritis. For a dozen or more years I have not been able to achieve an erection. I don't miss it; she does. We get by without penetration (at least by that oversized clit I have  ::)), but we have orgasms, and I do as well when being a solitary person. I enjoy hers, and always use fantasy as a female to achieve mine.

I'm ambivalent about the penis, I feel because of it's everyday function - peeing, and being the source of sexual pleasure, it's just an oversized joy button to me. I would of course be happier with it in me, inverted. The testicles are what I hate - ugly protrusions hanging down, getting in the way, and serving no purpose for me.

SusanKG

I'm pretty much the same as Jessica. Sex isn't always on the front of my mind like it was before, and I can go for weeks without masturbating -- pretty much indefinitely, actually -- but I can get turned on if I want to. Like you said about yourself, my body doesn't turn me on either, but I just don't think about it.

Basically, it's something I can do, rather than something I must do.

Quote from: SusanKG on December 12, 2009, 12:58:50 AM
I'm ambivalent about the penis, I feel because of it's everyday function - peeing, and being the source of sexual pleasure, it's just an oversized joy button to me. I would of course be happier with it in me, inverted. The testicles are what I hate - ugly protrusions hanging down, getting in the way, and serving no purpose for me.

SusanKG

VERY well said and pretty much exactly how I feel.  As I have resigned myself to the financial unlikelyhood of SRS anytime soon, I have become more and more fixated on finding the shortest route to orchie.

Like Alyssa said I can go weeks without sex, but I'd rather not! I absolutely abhor the idea of using that thing down there to penetrate anything, and after starting HRT even getting a semi-erection would bring me totally to tears- absolutely no good for maintaining a mood. :-\ At one point I swear I didn't even care if I ever had sex again, if it meant having to perform as a male in any fashion whatsoever.

So, it was really an adjustment going from a male to a female sex drive, and it took a while. In that regard my partner has been invaluable, teaching me how to enjoy sex all over again- but as a woman, not a man. I must say now having experienced both sides there is no comparison: as a woman I've had some of the most incredible orgasms I've ever experienced, including the ability to achieve them with nothing more than nipple stimulation. But, I basically had to learn to enjoy sex all over again. I can't speak for everyone, but HRT totally transformed my sexual response to female, and I couldn't be happier with the results  ;)

actually ther are some sound medical rasons for occasionally masturbating...keeps the skin nicely stretched, helps relieve the frustration although it makes me cry for lack of a vagina making me unable to have proper sex, takes away the built up frustration causd by a build up of sperm adn fluids...but mainly it actually empties the seminal vesicles see Wikipedia which store the secretions of seminal fluid that accompanies the sperm at each ejaculation... I have had two major incidents of SV Congestion due to disuse for up to a year at a time...I felt to have something like hard constipation then peed out a mass of blood and mush that turned out to be unuejaculated SV fluid that had gotten infected....so although it makes me cry I do try to empty myself every couple of months or so...just makes me feel so sad at having to do it though.
Incidentally the SV fall into disues from estrogen but I think it reasonanle to assume that post-op on low dose estrogen the SVs will regain some function and make the wetness of orgasm in the new vagina.

Yes. because I do not want to loose the ability to O and I want to maintain as much tissue down there as I can for the eventual srs.
Libido is basicaly nonexixtant. I make a point of having sex or masturbate at least every 3 days regardless if I am horney or not. I have found that I am able to get into it after awhile. (and if the bugger won't co-operate thier are ways to force it too) >:-)
However I will admit my sexual responce is definatly shifting from versatile to a bottom so to speak....So there is all that.

It's too traumatizing to touch down there which reallly sux because I'm very sexual mentally. Gawsh I cant wait for surgery.

i here you mija
jessica

see now the thing is that I can honestly say that I have never masterbated in my life. I am not trying to be the odd ball here but I really haven't. I always thought it was part of being a transsexual but turns out it is different for every person. I am still sexually arroused and active but no never masterbated. (i should note that I have been on HRT for 6 months and my sexual intensity has yet to change) hope this helps...

like some of the other ladies the thing down there repulses me. I also cant wait to get rid of it. Sadly some how you have to relieve your self and there are only 2 ways. I start HRT at the end of Jan and I hope it does take away the strange feelings down there.

I do not really care that much about my bits, just plain neutral.
But before I started on HRT I masturbated regularly, twice a day. But since I started on HRT my drive just disappeared. I have not touched that part for half a year and I do not miss it in any way.

My libido is there, I get aroused from time to time. But that part is not part of that feeling.

Quote from: jesse on December 16, 2009, 04:16:21 AM
i here you mija
jessica

Seconded. I'm pre-everything at this point but my feelings are exactly the same. So frustrating. :(

I did masturbate before hormones, probably never went more than a month without doing it since I was 14.

Now, just 15 days on hormones, my libido already has dropped a lot and I don't even wake up with an erection anymore, which is really a good feeling.

It is a weird feeling being turned on and yet not having an erection.

Quote from: Elijah on December 09, 2009, 04:19:13 PM
This is for pre opp females..

Do you masturbate?

I'm not trying to be a pervert here, bust doesnt estrogen keep you from having erections, I mean, how do you guys deal with it?

As a guy, even a pre T guy, I have a pretty high sex drive, and I'm able to masturbate, just to get off, but my body doesnt turn me on.

anyway, just curious

I certainly don't want to masterbate or have an erection. If I did I would find it most ditressing. My body doesn't turn me on either. Estrogen doesn't completely stop erections and anti androgens will help in the process in stoping them. I've been on HRT and anti - androgens since 2002 but I still occasionally get an erection and hate it so much.

This certainly not the way most of us genuine TS's feel and you are a typical man which is why you don't understand us.

Quote from: Elijah on December 09, 2009, 04:19:13 PM
This is for pre opp females..

Do you masturbate?

I'm not trying to be a pervert here, bust doesnt estrogen keep you from having erections, I mean, how do you guys deal with it?

As a guy, even a pre T guy, I have a pretty high sex drive, and I'm able to masturbate, just to get off, but my body doesnt turn me on.

anyway, just curious

Well, I guess I am different than most on here, and that is OK.  I do masturbate, and enjoy it very much.  It gives me pleasure.  But I like to look at my body, and see my breasts and my hard penis.
The E issue is tricky, but through the years I have learned what the balance is to be able to achieve erections and still feminize with E.  I am sure the levels are different for everyone so that is an issue for you and your Dr.

The annoying dangler doesn't get up very often and so I don't play about with it much  ::)

If I do give it a go it's mostly because I want it to go away and stop bothering me  :P

Elijha..

Thank you for asking the questions everyone else is too shy to ask


*slips out of girls room*

Quote from: Virginia87106 on December 16, 2009, 06:17:11 PM
Well, I guess I am different than most on here, and that is OK.  I do masturbate, and enjoy it very much.  It gives me pleasure.  But I like to look at my body, and see my breasts and my hard penis.

way to go Virginia :) I'm glad you can still enjoy your body, because so many people cant.

Quote from: Elijah on December 16, 2009, 07:47:10 PM
way to go Virginia :) I'm glad you can still enjoy your body, because so many people cant.

Quote from: Elijah on December 16, 2009, 07:47:10 PM
way to go Virginia :) I'm glad you can still enjoy your body, because so many people cant.

That's one of the things that differentiates transsexuals from transgenders Elijah.

Um ... wtf? Are you challenging Virginia's* identity? I really hope that's not what you meant. Because that's not cool.







* not to mention myself, or bunch of my IRL friends and acquaintences, or a lot of other people on this forum.

Mija...You've got it 100% right. I know as a transexual I hate my male body and all the bits and pieces that go with it.

Davina

I never could understand the difference between TS, and TG

but I dont think the fact that she can tolerate her 'bits' changes her gender identity, maybe I'm wrong

Uh yeah, this issue has nothing to do with TS vs TG.

As for me personally -- I was never one of the people who hate the unfortunate appendage, I just wished I had something else down there.  But I also have a high sex drive so I can't really avoid 'maintenance'.  I don't know how much genetic girls generally know about 'nocturnal emissions' but with me if I didn't do regular 'maintenance' then I just ended up have the sexy dreams where you wake up and have to change your underwear.  That's a really gross situation, especially when I was at boarding school.

In the past year though I've sort of changed the way I take care of that situation... I don't really think you want me to get into all the details (or maybe you do :)), but I'll just say that in my head I'm doing what girls do.

I'm not challenging anyone's identity Alyssa.

Quote from: Elijah on December 09, 2009, 04:19:13 PM
This is for pre opp females..

Do you masturbate?

I'm not trying to be a pervert here, bust doesnt estrogen keep you from having erections, I mean, how do you guys deal with it?

As a guy, even a pre T guy, I have a pretty high sex drive, and I'm able to masturbate, just to get off, but my body doesnt turn me on.

anyway, just curious

I used to have what I believe is a typical male libido before I started hormones.

Over 6 months of HRT and my libido has diminished an immense amount.  Spontaneous urges (the kind without stimuli) happen very rarely now.  Morning wood isn't even a thought anymore.

Erections and pleasuring myself is only achieved anymore through a personal fantasy dance of mental gymnastics.

I do so maybe twice a month now but it's usually only to allay my concerns for sexual functionality and other possible related factors after SRS.  I have to admit though, I have a hard time even remembering any sort of schedule for even that now.  As for erections themselves, I'm lucky to get just over half erect even during climax.


This questionnaire is for medical purposes right?   :P

(edit: personal)

I am curious here, am I reading that if you don't hate your penis you are a transgender....and as long as you hate it you are a genuine transsexual?

That is like saying if a some one only likes to give annal male sex but doesn't like to receive it he is less gay cause he isn't down for the whole package of what being gay is all about.

Being a transsexual is about the feelings you have about yourself on the inside. I am wondering who is inventing these standards to be considered a "genuine" transsexual. I think that it is silly to discount someones identity just because they don't hate their body like the majority.

Saying that you have to hate your penis and never use it since it was a part of your past manhood is like saying you should hate your larger than female hands and never use them since they are the result of the male growth development during adolescence.

am I wrong here...

agreed janessa i think the word transgender was coined do to the fact that some people didnt like the term transsexual to me its semantics to me if your gender identity is different then your birth gender then your one of us lol
jessica

Although I do not mean to speak for anyone else, I do not believe that was meant in any posts.

It simply is not a true statement for everyone.  Some TS do not have 'hate' for their penis, just varying degree's of dislike   :laugh:

Quote from: cutejanessa on December 17, 2009, 03:50:49 AM
I am curious here, am I reading that if you don't hate your penis you are a transgender....and as long as you hate it you are a genuine transsexual?

That is like saying if a some one only likes to give annal male sex but doesn't like to receive it he is less gay cause he isn't down for the whole package of what being gay is all about.

Being a transsexual is about the feelings you have about yourself on the inside. I am wondering who is inventing these standards to be considered a "genuine" transsexual. I think that it is silly to discount someones identity just because they don't hate their body like the majority.

Saying that you have to hate your penis and never use it since it was a part of your past manhood is like saying you should hate your larger than female hands and never use them since they are the result of the male growth development during adolescence.

am I wrong here...

We are all different and I think the majority of people under the transsexual umbrella have a dislike for their male genitalia. I personally have never liked my penis and never wanted to look at it. You might love yours! but they are not the feelings I have. The 'Transsexual' term more is closely associated with the definitions in most medical journels as someone who doesn't like their male genitalia or male physical appearance. The '->-bleeped-<-' term is more associated with someone who is happy with their male genitalia but likes to dress and be portrayed as a female. Obviously there are grey area's and the two difinitions clearly overlap in a lot of cases.

Agreed, Janessa. I don't like what I have down there, and would love to have "thigs" down there corrected asap. But still, I don't hate my current genitals nearly enough not to use them. Sure, it's seriously frustrating to have anything to do with that junk, but only that: frustrating, nothing more. I should clarify that I'm single. With a partner, well, I have no idea how things would work out.

Quote from: Kaori on December 17, 2009, 03:55:25 AM
Some TS do not have 'hate' for their penis, just varying degree's of dislike   :laugh:

This.

I think what happens when you let a very vocal extremist minority control the press releases is that you wind up with very extreme positions.  "I hate my sex organs" is one of them.  Why does that hate have to be so present in the TG diagnoses.  Can one be TG without the hate - many would really say no.  Why can't it be - as it is for many I think - a preference, a choice and not something simmering in hate and self loathing?

Don't know that you have to "hate" it, but if you're planning to have it turned inside out and stuffed back up inside you sans the little marbles, then it would probably be a good idea to be pretty much over it, don't you think? Otherwise you may be in for a serious reality check when you decide you really need to poke something with it and it ain't there no more. I'm no expert, but that seems logical to me.

Yeah, I don't totally hate my body. I would just prefer to have the desired parts is parts  ::)

For once, I'm afraid I can toe the company line on this one. I want to
cut this body, shock it, drain it's blood, poison it, peel it's skin off and grind it's bones down. If it ends up looking nice after, that's fine but if not it's still better than this. I can not rest or be at peace until it's over.

Wow, this thread is turning into a bit of a hornets' nest.

On the "hate my genitalia and can't stand touching it" position, I think it's pretty typical of a lot of m2f transsexuals. It's just not universal. It comes down to how much you think THAT thing defines your gender identity. But not all transsexuals fixate on the same things to define their gender identity  physically.

If the genital body part is like the ultimate symbol of your masculinity to you, then of course you're going to loathe it and want it gone. Thing is... not all m2f transsexuals pick the same parts of their bodies to represent their hated masculinity, no matter what the medical journals say.

For me anything that is visible in public is BY FAR the more hateful and loathsome symbol to me. When I finally decided to transition the thing I most fixated on eradicating was face and body hair. I couldn't STAND the thought of being hairy in a non feminine way any more. And that feeling hasn't subsided one iota since, even though that aspect is pretty darn passable now. Even the thought of being hairy again disgusts me in ways I have a hard time explaining. After that is probably overall body shape. Those are the biggest "masculine attributes I must erase" for me by far.

Since pretty much no one else ever sees my genitalia (you'll have to trust me on this ;) ), it bothers me far less. I mean... I definitely want to have GRS. But that's more like the final "icing on the cake" step to me. I'm not that hung up on it.

Mind you I never use the thing the way a boy is supposed to. But... it's just another part of me I'm planning to change. It doesn't bother me to touch it more than it bothers me that my nose is larger than I would like. I know what I'm planning to do with it surgically when I can afford it, and that is enough to settle my thoughts about it.

But I think it's totally valid for some transsexuals to despise even the thought of the thing and want it gone as fast as possible. I just wish they'd understand not everyone in their situation defines things exactly the same way.

Quote from: Diana_W on December 17, 2009, 07:55:57 PMI just wish they'd understand not everyone in their situation defines things exactly the same way.

This tends to be good advice almost regardless of the context.

Valerie, are you a lesbian or bi/pansexual? Lots of lesbians like penetrating or being penetrated by their unquestionably female partners. Sometimes that involves a strap-on. Sometimes, that strap-on is permanently attached. In either case, there's no reason to see it as a symbol of anything -- it's just a way to have sex. So what would you say to a woman who wanted to use a strap-on?

In my mind, what distinguishes lesbian sex isn't as much the lack of a penis as the lack of an a priori power differential and the fact that afterwards neither partner rolls over and doesn't want to touch the other for the rest of the night.

I don't hate my part.  I'm not a boy.  If you saw me or heard me you wouldn't think I'm a boy, or a crossdresser.   I find what Valerie said very ignorant and offensive.  I think this categorizing between who is "genuinely" trans or not is a superiority complex.  No group is above or below the other.  I respect tgirls who don't like their part just as much as I respect the ones who do, and if they believe they are transgendered with GID and all that, who am I to say they are wrong or merely just crossdressers?  Get over yourselves.

The extreme polarity some of you chicas see the spectrum of masculinity and femininity is astounding.  A woman is not a prim and proper 1950's housewife.  I see so often some of you honestly believe a man should be expected to never talk about sex with you.  How are these things working out for you?  I'd imagine it's all a lot of unnecessary stress and unattainable ideals.

Quote from: Valeriedances on December 17, 2009, 08:58:38 PM
I have always thought that if someone enjoys their penis and using it sexually they were a boy ...or assumes a male role in that aspect, though they may have a feminine side and enjoy crossdressing. I have difficulty understanding it. Doesn't the image of a hard penis strike you as a male symbol? When a TG person I meet asks me out and makes it clear they want sex using their penis, I can't help but think boy. I guess I am putting too much of an emphasis on genitals and sexuality. I do love penises, but not on me.

I apologize for my ignorance and do not wish to offend anyone. I realize there is a wide spectrum and not everyone is the same. I seem stuck in my binary thinking.

It sounds to me more like you're generalizing from a pretty specific sexual mindset to the whole "I'm not horrified by my genitalia" concept. Not really the same thing. There certainly are transgendered people who are not transsexual (To me "transgendered" is a general name for all people who have some part of their identity defined as the opposite sex, while "transsexual" refers to those people who feel like they truly are the opposite sex from their birth body. All transsexuals are also transgendered in my dictionary. But not all transgendered people are transsexual).

On the other hand, I remember being VERY stuck a couple of decades ago by trying to understand my gender dysphoria. I kept reading that the "experts" agreed that a transsexual despised their penis and had an overwhelming desire to have it off. While a crossdresser was horrified by the thought of losing their penis. My dilemma was, I didn't feel EITHER of those things. So what the h*ll was I?!

Coming out of my last and greatest attempt to stay in the closet and stop having "ridiculous" wrong gender thoughts, science appeared to have progressed a lot more. Plus the internet made it a LOT easier to find better information. I now see the crude "penis hatred" criterion as just another awkward and unsophisticated attempt by the cisgendered medical world to try to understand what the heck we trans people are. SOME transsexuals do hate their penis. Others don't. The truth is, the only common thing making a transsexuals alike is their desire to change their physical sex to match the one inside their brains. It gets expressed lots of ways prior to successful transition.

Diana, that is similar to my experience. I also wrestled with the (obviously false) notion that there weren't any trans lesbians. That bit of heteronormativity made it tough for me to make sense of things. I think it's one of the reasons a lot of gay trans people take longer to transition.

Valerie, I didn't think you were being offensive. Sometimes people just don't understand other people's experiences. As long as you're open to hearing about them, that's fine. Also, sexual hang-ups aren't a really big deal. Sometimes there's something deeper behind them (racism, transphobia, etc.), but if you don't want to have sex with someone, that's justified. I can admit that I share some of your feelings -- I wouldn't want to date another trans woman, regardless of sex, because she would just remind me too much of my own insecurities. And yes, that's kind of transphobic. I'm working on it. But the important thing is that whatever your hangups, you treat people with the respect they deserve.

Quote from: cutejanessa on December 17, 2009, 03:50:49 AM
I am curious here, am I reading that if you don't hate your penis you are a transgender....and as long as you hate it you are a genuine transsexual?

That is like saying if a some one only likes to give annal male sex but doesn't like to receive it he is less gay cause he isn't down for the whole package of what being gay is all about.

Being a transsexual is about the feelings you have about yourself on the inside. I am wondering who is inventing these standards to be considered a "genuine" transsexual. I think that it is silly to discount someones identity just because they don't hate their body like the majority.

Saying that you have to hate your penis and never use it since it was a part of your past manhood is like saying you should hate your larger than female hands and never use them since they are the result of the male growth development during adolescence.

am I wrong here...

The person who is "inventing these standards to be considered a 'genuine' transsexual" is Harry Benjamin.  You know a German endocrinologist, widely known for his clinical work with transsexualism??

Sure we can sit here & blur the truth or deny it if we want.  It's easier to do that than accept it.

By Harry Benjaimin own words:

""True transsexuals feel that they belong to the other sex, they want to be and function as members of the opposite sex, not only to appear as such. For them, their sex organs, the primary (testes) as well as the secondary (penis and others) are disgusting deformities that must be changed by the surgeon's knife.
This attitude appears to be the chief differential diagnostic point between the two syndromes (sets of symptoms) - that is, those of transvestism and transsexualism.
The ->-bleeped-<- (TV) usually wants to be left alone. He requests nothing from the medical profession, unless he wants a psychiatrist to try to cure him. The transsexual (TS), however, puts all his faith and future into the hands of the doctor, particularly the surgeon."

http://www.transgenderzone.com/downloads/tphenom.htm (http://www.transgenderzone.com/downloads/tphenom.htm)

And what one person says means there's no room for dissenting opinion?  Come on now.  We're not invalids if we don't adhere to some standard copied and pasted by some guy who never went through the experience himself as a transgender to understand any kind of variance in our community.

Quote from: Pia on December 17, 2009, 11:19:22 PM
The person who is "inventing these standards to be considered a 'genuine' transsexual" is Harry Benjamin.  You know a German endocrinologist, widely known for his clinical work with transsexualism??

Sure we can sit here & blur the truth or deny it if we want.  It's easier to do that than accept it.

Umm... blurring or denying the truth?

Smart and adept as Harry Benjamin might have been, he died in 1986. Groundbreaking for his day, no question. But he wasn't writing Permanent Truths defining the transsexual condition. He was a well meaning non-transsexual trying to understand a (to the cisgendered world) bizarre condition. I seriously doubt his dying words were, "It's all solved now... never question a thing I wrote about transsexuals again."

SOME of what you quoted from Benjamin still matches the experience transsexuals today, including those on this forum, would endorse. As he was developing his theories in a MUCH less open time for transgendered expression, he stands out as a true leader of his day in this area. 

However Benjamin's "->-bleeped-<-/Transsexual" dichotomy hasn't aged all that well. It frankly wasn't his invention in the first place. He was simply trying to improve it from the way it had been understood before his work.

There is a tendency among some transsexuals to try to "conform" to whatever the medical texts say they are SUPPOSED to feel, even if it means being dishonest to themselves. I think this is harmful to those very people. If transition means anything, it means becoming true to yourself. Not just putting on a NEW set of externally imposed expectations that you STILL don't feel.

It always amazes me how catty these sorts of discussions get. I'm more trans than you! No! I'm more trans than YOU! NOO!

Quote from: Pia on December 17, 2009, 11:19:22 PM
The person who is "inventing these standards to be considered a 'genuine' transsexual" is Harry Benjamin.  You know a German endocrinologist, widely known for his clinical work with transsexualism??

Oh, sure, a man.  ::)




There's nothing like an ad hominem argument to counter an appeal to authority. ;)

Quote
By Harry Benjaimin own words:

""True transsexuals feel that they belong to the other sex, they want to be and function as members of the opposite sex, not only to appear as such. For them, their sex organs, the primary (testes) as well as the secondary (penis and others) are disgusting deformities that must be changed by the surgeon's knife.
This attitude appears to be the chief differential diagnostic point between the two syndromes (sets of symptoms) - that is, those of transvestism and transsexualism.
The ->-bleeped-<- (TV) usually wants to be left alone. He requests nothing from the medical profession, unless he wants a psychiatrist to try to cure him. The transsexual (TS), however, puts all his faith and future into the hands of the doctor, particularly the surgeon."

So where does one fall when one would go under the knife in a nanosecond if the funds were available and yet has made peice with the offending organ rather than wallow in a psychosis for which there is no remedy (lacking funds)?

I do not like my penis, nor do I loath it. I dislike it, in the same sense that i dislike my body hair, flat chest, large gut, big feet, excess hight, etc.

to the extent that circumstances make it possible to remedy some or all of these, I shall. When one of them is permanently rectified I shall dance a most undignified dance.

But I see no point in obsessive hatred in the meantime. Or rather, I see no need to make such hatred a requirement for admission to the club.

I just cant feel the urge to do so like before as if i had to now its if i ever want to and i have been on hrt for 8 months now without a partner and probably woudn't hurt if i had one but i just dont feel the same anymore and i have felt female all my life but the male part that was hard wired for sex is all but gone oh well at least i dont have to worry about "performing" anymore but i love it nevertheless..Brittani 

ok then...if you have to use it in a relationship or it demands regular attention from yourself if you're single: do you feel elated that it works and the orgasm feels great  - or do you wish it wouldn't work and the orgasm makes you miserable?

Quote from: Valeriedances on December 17, 2009, 08:58:38 PM
I have always thought that if someone enjoys their penis and using it sexually they were a boy ...or assumes a male role in that aspect, though they may have a feminine side and enjoy crossdressing. I have difficulty understanding it. Doesn't the image of a hard penis strike you as a male symbol? When a TG person I meet asks me out and makes it clear they want sex using their penis, I can't help but think boy. I guess I am putting too much of an emphasis on genitals and sexuality. I do love penises, but not on me.

I apologize for my ignorance and do not wish to offend anyone. I realize there is a wide spectrum and not everyone is the same. I seem stuck in my binary thinking.

I absolutely agree with everything you say Valerie and feel exately the same about this subject.

I can identify with that not even knowing at first what transexualism was at first. I had three phsychiatrists and one doctor tell me I was definate and so I researched it and joined chat rooms the minute i did i felt at home and all i ever did fell into place inc. the orgasms and sexual stuff that really took a back seat in my life since then although as i stated before sure i like an orgasm but they are far and few between and not so prominent in my life and see myself on a different mental almost emotional level too. So as I was shown that I did not think like males do and never did it did not surprise me why all of my relationships failed and I had no children or girlfreinds in that capacity. When I told others that I was transgender I had many girlfriends suddenly become freinds and men too became freinds that call me for advice quite often. Being transgender is a personal experience for me and to compare myself to another lady is to losing game for all of us since there is always somone better looking and has more years of transexperience and is the sage? bull     

Regardless of the differences in opinions and as dynamic as our situations may be from one another - I feel fortunate and am thankful to be part of this community thus far.  A community which I find speaks what they believe and stands up for how they feel - whether we agree or not, is why I appreciate the sharing and discussions here.

I now return you to the topic of masturbation   ;)

Thank you Kaori.  It is good to hear a voice of moderation and encouragement.  I am very glad you are here!!!

Quote from: Diana_W on December 17, 2009, 11:42:17 PM
There is a tendency among some transsexuals to try to "conform" to whatever the medical texts say they are SUPPOSED to feel, even if it means being dishonest to themselves. I think this is harmful to those very people. If transition means anything, it means becoming true to yourself. Not just putting on a NEW set of externally imposed expectations that you STILL don't feel.

How do you know how I or other transsexual people really FEEL.  I'm not trying to "conform" to whatever the medical texts say that I'm SUPPOSED to feel & I'm not being dishonest to myself either.

I abhore the use of the word "True" when describing transsexual persons. Either they are a transsexual person or they aren't. And if they aren't they are transgender.

If a person is genderqueer that means they are gender variant. Transsexual people have no desire to be gender variant. They want to be the women (or men) they feel themselves to be. Transsexual people embrace the gender dichotomy, transgender people do not. It's really that simple.

And there is no hierarchy involved! These are standard definitions that have been around for years. Some people would like to make us all the same, but to me that is abhorrent. I didn't transition to be something in between. I transitioned to be the woman I feel myself to be. If a person wants to be genderqueer, fine. They just better not go around saying they are the same as me because they are not.

Also when some MTF's go around saying that "surgery isn't important to them & they love their dick & want to poke other people with it", it's not only offensive to some of us but it already has put GRS, a lifesaving treatment for actual sufferers of transsexualism at risk. That's reality. you deny the scientific studies that should have already been enough to make insurance companies pay up...but you give them cover not to.
And you wonder why some of us get pissed? Seriously, what planet are you people from anyway?

People please remember that the SOC are guidelines.  And while I agree with Yvonne for the most part, being a Transsexual is a personal identification.

For me I need SRS.  Will I ever have it, I don't know.



Blessed Be
Janet

Quote from: Janet Lynn on December 18, 2009, 12:19:56 PM
being a Transsexual is a personal identification.

Blessed Be
Janet

Actually Janet Lynn, transsexualism is a diagnosable medical condition characterized by symptoms.  Transsexualism isn't an identity.  I agree with Yvonne as well.  Whilst I don't believe that you have to be post-op to be transsexual, the desire to have surgery has to be there. 

Quote from: Yvonne on December 18, 2009, 12:08:31 PM
How do you know how I or other transsexual people really FEEL.  I'm not trying to "conform" to whatever the medical texts say that I'm SUPPOSED to feel & I'm not being dishonest to myself either.

Ahem... Despite your intimation that I was trying to tell you how you feel, if you will look at the actual statement I made, and which you quoted: "There is a tendency among some transsexuals to try to "conform" to whatever the medical texts say they are SUPPOSED to feel."

I made no pretense of knowing how YOU feel. But please allow me the ability to draw upon my own experiences and interactions with other transsexuals, in order to make a statement like "some transsexuals." There are transsexuals (more than just one) exactly like I described, and I know this because I have met them and listened to their thoughts and experiences.

I think it was perhaps a lot more common back before the Web made the transsexual community a lot more interconnected. But back in the early 90's, when I lived in the middle of Illinois, the idea of a transsexual "community" outside of a city like San Francisco or New York seemed a pipe dream. When you met a transsexual in such a place they seemed to have a HUGE desire to conform to whatever the professional journals said they were supposed to be. And it wasn't so much that they universally agreed. It was like their only lifeline to be taken seriously by the professional gatekeepers of their transition.

Even today on this very forum, you don't have to look long to find stories of transsexuals trying to tell their therapists and physicians what they think they want to hear, afraid that revealing their real thoughts and feelings might prevent them from being allowed HRT and/or GRS.

And I'm from planet Earth, thanks for asking.

QuoteTranssexualism isn't an identity

Thank you so much for putting that out there, it's really the heart of the matter. A condition that is not permanent.

As far as the original question goes, it doesn't matter if I can masturbate or not, the treatment for this temporary condition has left me without any desire too and that's the significant part. I've actually been meaning to get around to it for a couple days and keep spacing it off.

Quote from: Blanche on December 18, 2009, 02:01:51 PM
Actually Janet Lynn, transsexualism is a diagnosable medical condition characterized by symptoms.  Transsexualism isn't an identity.  I agree with Yvonne as well.  Whilst I don't believe that you have to be post-op to be transsexual, the desire to have surgery has to be there.

I would disagree.

While transsexualism is a diagnosable psychiatric condition, that does not disqualify it from also being an identity for some.
Also, the need for surgery are not a definite part of the symptoms for that diagnosis.

Quote from: lisaolsson on December 18, 2009, 02:16:40 PM
I would disagree.

While transsexualism is a diagnosable psychiatric condition, that does not disqualify it from also being an identity for some.
Also, the need for surgery are not a definite part of the symptoms for that diagnosis.

Yeah for some it is.  In reality it isn't.

shesh, what happened to this topic?

not its just a full fledged argument, lets not argue on who is more trans then who, etc

Yeah, it was somewhat interesting before folks started getting fussy  :P

A lot of people writing here are applying a much tighter definition of transsexualism than any medical, psychiatric, or psychological organization currently applies.

WPATH (in the SoC) refers not to the DSM, but the ICD-10:

Quote from: ICD-10
Transsexualism (F64.0) has three criteria:
   1. The desire to live and be accepted as a member of the opposite sex, usually accompanied by the wish to make his or her body as congruent as possible with the preferred sex through surgery and hormone treatment
   2. The transsexual identity has been present persistently for at least two years
   3. The disorder is not a symptom of another mental disorder or a chromosomal abnormality

Source: http://www.wpath.org/Documents2/socv6.pdf

To see what the what the DSM has to say, look here: http://www.behavenet.com/capsules/disorders/genderiddis.htm
Note that desire for surgury is not required for any diagnosis, and there is no mention of masturbation or sexual activity, whatsoever.

Also, note what WPATH has to say about cultural effects:

Quote from: SoCCultural Differences in Gender Identity Variance throughout the World. Even if epidemiological studies established that a similar base rate of gender identity disorders existed all over the world, it is likely that cultural differences from one country to another would alter the behavioral expressions of these conditions. Moreover, access to treatment, cost of treatment, the therapies offered and the social attitudes towards gender variant people and the professionals who deliver care differ broadly from place to place. While in most countries, crossing gender boundaries usually generates moral censure rather than compassion, there are striking examples in certain cultures of cross- gendered behaviors (e.g., in spiritual leaders) that are not stigmatized.

And here's what WPATH has to say about "true transsexualism":

Quote from: SoCDuring the 1960s and 1970s, clinicians used the term true transsexual. The true transsexual was thought to be a person with a characteristic path of atypical gender identity development that predicted an improved life from a treatment sequence that culminated in genital surgery. True transsexuals were thought to have: 1) cross-gender identifications that were consistently expressed behaviorally in childhood, adolescence, and adulthood; 2) minimal or no sexual arousal to cross-dressing; and 3) no heterosexual interest, relative to their anatomic sex. True transsexuals could be of either sex. True transsexual males were distinguished from males who arrived at the desire to change sex and gender via a reasonably masculine behavioral developmental pathway. Belief in the true transsexual concept for males dissipated when it was realized that such patients were rarely encountered, and that some of the original true transsexuals had falsified their histories to make their stories match the earliest theories about the disorder. The concept of true transsexual females never created diagnostic uncertainties, largely because patient histories were relatively consistent and gender variant behaviors such as female cross-dressing remained unseen by clinicians.

That part I put in bold is precisely what Diana was talking about. I tend to think that the current establishment understanding rings true for me. Go ahead and disagree -- I have a few quibbles myself -- but understand that your point of view is neither more or less legitimate than anyone else's nor backed up by any establishment.

The whole discussion is semantic -- squabbling over where to draw the lines that define categories referred to by specific words -- and that's kind of lame. No word in any human langage has a meaning as distinct and precise as what we read in dictionaries -- except perhaps mathematical terms -- because all phenomena we encounter in this universe, even the most discrete ones that we see in physics experiments, are invariably continuous, fuzzy. Transsexualism is one of fuzzier.

Excellent post Alyssa!!!

"A lot of people writing here are applying a much tighter definition of transsexualism than any medical, psychiatric, or psychological organization currently applies."

Quote from: Yvonne on December 18, 2009, 12:08:31 PM
If a person is genderqueer that means they are gender variant. Transsexual people have no desire to be gender variant. They want to be the women (or men) they feel themselves to be. Transsexual people embrace the gender dichotomy, transgender people do not. It's really that simple.

Yvonne, please be careful here. I know you don't want other people to label you in a way that is contrary to your own identity and self-perception. That is repugnant to me, too. But some transsexuals do embrace a certain amount of gender variance in themselves. For example, I have a transsexual friend who also self-identifies as genderqueer. I do not doubt that he is transsexual. I do not doubt that he is genderqueer. I respect his self-labeling. He is who he is.

And I am a transsexual, but I would not say that I "embrace the gender dichotomy." I am male, but I actually feel that too much reliance on strict societal differentiation between male and female can be destructive and harmful. I see myself as squarely in the male end of the spectrum, but that's only because I happen to occupy that position. I believe in a gender continuum, not a strict dichotomy. And that's who I am.

Back to the subject at hand...

No.  Multiple reasons - (I'm Mormon first off and that's a no no, and I have a spouse).  My sex drive is near nill since my orchi anyhow.

Very well put scientific anaylicial review. I always knew I was transexual and I meet all three criterea and every medical term to describe me. It is however only important to me as my phsyciatrist and me move forward in my hrt and eventual srs for many years to come. I look forward to discarding part of myself that was a wall and a barrier to my happiness and my view of myself since I had been hiding it from everyone including myself for safety. I appoligize for using terms so loosely here on this chat room and for getting "off-track" here. I am not so sensitive on this issue as it is my life and I will do as I please as long as it brings me closer to my true self.. thats it in a nutshell :)   

Quote from: Arch on December 18, 2009, 04:38:46 PM
Back to the subject at hand...

Yes, the original poster asked if we masturbate

Quote from: Alyssa M. on December 18, 2009, 03:59:49 PM
A lot of people writing here are applying a much tighter definition of transsexualism than any medical, psychiatric, or psychological organization currently applies.

WPATH (in the SoC) refers not to the DSM, but the ICD-10:

Source: http://www.wpath.org/Documents2/socv6.pdf (http://www.wpath.org/Documents2/socv6.pdf)

To see what the what the DSM has to say, look here: http://www.behavenet.com/capsules/disorders/genderiddis.htm (http://www.behavenet.com/capsules/disorders/genderiddis.htm)
Note that desire for surgury is not required for any diagnosis, and there is no mention of masturbation or sexual activity, whatsoever.

Also, note what WPATH has to say about cultural effects:

And here's what WPATH has to say about "true transsexualism":

That part I put in bold is precisely what Diana was talking about. I tend to think that the current establishment understanding rings true for me. Go ahead and disagree -- I have a few quibbles myself -- but understand that your point of view is neither more or less legitimate than anyone else's nor backed up by any establishment.

The whole discussion is semantic -- squabbling over where to draw the lines that define categories referred to by specific words -- and that's kind of lame. No word in any human langage has a meaning as distinct and precise as what we read in dictionaries -- except perhaps mathematical terms -- because all phenomena we encounter in this universe, even the most discrete ones that we see in physics experiments, are invariably continuous, fuzzy. Transsexualism is one of fuzzier.

Ahh kind of convenient isn't Alyssa? to indentify some points of my posts but not all??

What do you say about those "supoosed" MTF transsexual people that enjoy their cock, love the feeling the erection feels & don't want to get rid of it?

There's nothing that screams more MALE than a "supposed" MTF transsexual that wants his cock sucked or wants to enter another person.  Call it bigotry if you want, to me that's disgusting behaviour.  You should be ashamed of yourselves.  Just disgusting,. repudiate behaviour.  go ahead & get all the "okays" you get, you will neverbe nothing more than a freak to the eyes of society.

This is a topic that engenders great feeling, but we need to keep it civil and be respectful of each other.

Please state your views as being your views.

And while this whole discussion about who is transsexual and who is merely transgendered is very interesting, it is way off topic.

- Kate

Quote from: Yvonne on December 19, 2009, 01:08:46 AM

There's nothing that screams more MALE than a "supposed" MTF transsexual that wants his cock sucked or wants to enter another person.  Call it bigotry if you want, to me that's disgusting behaviour.  You should be ashamed of yourselves.  Just disgusting,. repudiate behaviour.  go ahead & get all the "okays" you get, you will neverbe nothing more than a freak to the eyes of society.

Yvonne, This is getting kind of ugly, and perhaps not in the way that you intended.

Can we please find a way to express our points without telling people to be "ashamed of yourselves." And calling people "disgusting" and "freaks"?

I think you'll find your underlying views reflect those of many others here. But the way you're expressing them is a bit offputting.

I think this has gone on long enough so I have locked it.

This is all gotten a bit silly and going around in circles. The reality is there are more than one definition that could be applied to these situations.

Really you should all just talk about the undisputed bones of it. If you identify as a woman, that is what you are regardless of what you want to do with what's between your legs. Same goes for the men. All this talk of who is or isn't a transexual is a waste of time.

I would like to refer you all to our wiki:
https://www.susans.org/wiki/Transsexual#Defining_transsexualism (https://www.susans.org/wiki/Transsexual#Defining_transsexualism)