Susan's Place Transgender Resources

For all those who have at any time felt their validity challenged, to all those drawing lines in the sand.

I have been called most names in the book.  I've been accused of being every variation of transgender out there with more than a few asserting that I don't really have any problem at all - that this is in my head.  I have had transitioners tell me I'm don't fit with them because I ended my transition, while I've had de-transitioners tell me I don't fit with them because I don't regret transition.  Some have trumpeted that I am a success while others focus on my failures.  I have had some diminish my pain, while others ask me to succumb to it.  I have been labeled a freak while at the same time too normal.  I have been derided for all the things for which I've been lauded.

None of it matters.

In the end, no matter the cause, no matter the reason, no matter the big picture, I still deal with something that has the potential to tear me apart inside.  Maybe it doesn't fit into your definition of what I believe that something feels like, but it is definitively there.  It is there, and I want to know I'm with others who feel it too.  That is why I come to Susan's, that is why I seek out others who have dealt with what I'm dealing with.  We might not all deal with it the same way, but we can all be of help to one another.  There is no room for superiority, no room for unkind words - it only causes more people to pick sides, modify their lives so they better fit their chosen model, and ultimately diminishes the value we could all gain by being honest with each other and most importantly, ourselves.

I wish each of you the best outcome, the happiest life attainable, and I pledge to support you in helping you find it - wherever it leads.

Dear Interalia,

I have to admit I do not know if I have ever been "nasty" to you. I suspect not, because I try very hard to walk in everyones shoes. Maybe that is why I keep tripping up. I love human beings. I do not understand most. I cry for many: there are some I would like to kill.

In my opinion people "like us" and I do NOT want to use definitions, have a tough life. Why do we get into arguments about what we are, or aren't?

THANK THE LORD: I've just found out I'm a red striped guppy. So what. The rest of the red striped guppies will no doubt now invite me to red striped guppy shows. If they are in the same state, city, hall and don't have beliefs different to theirs.


The "thing" I have about this site is the ability for many of us to explore our differences, too each other, intra differences; and to people who are outside of our experience; inter differences.

I have testicles, still ( :embarrassed:) I do not relate to being male. I do not understand what most males do in sociality and life. That does not mean I have an immediate urge to grab a baby for a cuddle. Most women don't.

I don't like watching sport. Many men and women do. This is not being male or female; it's being people. Some do some don't.

I think, Interalia, that the thing about your posts, and being on Susan's site for just a year, is that I have changed. Your comments and life experience have made me  think, sometimes get very emotional. Something I could not do before Susan's. I think a lot more. My big goal last year was to have my ears pierced. Seems so trivial.


Sorry if I blabbed on.


Cindy

Thank you, Cindy, I've always valued your posts.

I wrote this post because I finished reading another (locked) topic that devolved into senseless name calling and validity challenging.  I wasn't offended by the post personally, but I know how it feels to be challenged in such a way.  I wrote this post to try to illustrate what I believe to be the feelings of many here, to say, "Hey! I'm one of you! Let's help each other!" and to hopefully promote more harmony between the groups.

Susan's has been more than welcoming to me, so I hope no one takes this post as representative of my experience here exclusively.

Hey Interalia

Even though we don't always agree on ideas I can honestly say that your posts have been amongst the most interesting and well thought out here.

I value and admire you greatly, and though we are different in the way we deal with this I personally would NEVER question your validity nor indeed would I have any truck with anyone who does! People are just different, it doesn't make anyone any more "right".

You are undoubtedly amongst the most thoughtful and sincere people here. As we have both often observed, there is no one size fits all way to deal with this issue, and anyone who therefore tries to criticise you on the basis of decisions that you have so courageously made simply has no place on a support forum.

As for support, I'm not sure what, in practice, I can offer beyond saying that I believe in you absolutely, and I for one would miss you if you suddenly weren't on here. I also see your pain. If I could take some of it I would. So please never start to feel you are isolated on this board. You have a sincere friend from the UK even though we have never met.

I don't think there are many on this board qualified to tell you what version of trans you are or that you aren't trans at all. You should be supported here no matter what your status.

Have you been seeing a gender therapist? If not that may help you out a great deal!

hugs

Totally agree Interalia were all in this GID or whatever boat together. I don't feel anyones opinions, choices, feelings, desires are any more valid than anothers. One thing that has bothered me about this forum is that it is almost impossible to state a strong opinion on here without being challenged, and offending someone. I have what you might call very strong and clear cut definitions of things but I am also able to discuss them like an adult without it turning into a flame war. If I said what I was really thinking...lol, I wouldn't really be able to, it would just become an argument and they would not bother to think that I respect their opinion and am not purposely trying to offend them.

Sometimes, on the point of validity, a persons natural inclinations lean toward something considered valid by traditional general consensus, where anothers do not, but neither is more valid in the ultimate sense, neither is more true and feelings, like anything else do change. But for the person whose natural inclinations don't lean toward a classic general consensus, they shouldn't then label themselves based on that classic model. It's a matter of agreeable definitions, not taste. Pointing that out to someone is also not always automatically meant to be condescending or one-ups-man-ship. If someone is adopted and believes for half of their life that they are Italian, and then finds upon meeting their parents that they are Greek....that is not an intentional challenge to their identity.

Since this keeps coming up, I want to remind everyone of The Rules (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,2.0.html).

An internet forum is personal property, not public forum.
This means that this place is more like someone's livingroom than a streetcorner.
We, the moderation team, are people who Susan has given the permission to enforce the rules.
This is like asking a friend to toss out some guy/girl who is breaking things, or being rude, in your livingroom.

The two rules that were stomped on in that locked post that Interalia is referring to are;
10. Bashing or flaming of any individuals or groups is not acceptable behavior on this web site and will not be tolerated in the slightest for any reason.  This includes but is not limited to:

    * Advocating the separation or exclusion of one or more group from under the Transgender umbrella term
    * Suggesting or claiming that one segment or sub-segment of our community is more legitimate, deserving, or more real than any others
and
15. Items under discussion shall be confined to the subject matter at hand, members shall avoid taking the other users posts personally, and/or posting anything that can reasonably be construed as a personal attack.

These rules are not unreasonable, nor are they unfair.
_

Interalia, you are a good person, clever, and I enjoy your posts.
No one on this forum has the right to tell you how to live your life, nor to condemn you for doing things any different than they choose to.
In fact, referring to you, or anyone, as less "real" than anyone, is expressly against the rules.

I truly do not understand this validity issue.?  Why is it some impose their opinions of what a person should be or not be if they do not really even know them or are in their lives??  If one talks too much about themselves, then some will think that you are self-absorbed, or find something to pick out and critique, so my personal experience is to just live your life and try to be true to yourself.  Think hard about yourself and what you are doing.  How it may or may not effect your  loved ones.  If you think you are doing right by yourself, chances are that you are following the right path.  If you choose to transition, then that is your decision based on your own life and ppl who you love and make up your life, not someone who knows nothing about you making it for you.  And if you decide not to, then it is also your decision, and just might be the right choice for you as well.  There is a big difference between having feelings of GID and possibly actually being TG.  Transitioning is a PERMANENT  change.  It is something that will effect the rest of your life, so it is not a bad thing to wait, or not even transition if you do not feel right or it isnt a change that will be an asset to you other than you having GID.  That is why it is so very important when considering this, to seek out a well qualified counselor.  It may be that there are issues going on in you life that effect your identity.   I have personally known ppl that have transitioned without fully understanding their own issues and later after regretting it.  They are now stuck in a transitioned body of the opposite sex, when they should not have.  They can not go back..,So think hard on what you do in life and in every aspect it will or could change.  If you are happy with yourself, that is all you need.  Transitioning is not always necessary.

You aren't doing it the way I would, therefore you are wrong.

I don't believe that, but sometimes I can fall into that mode of thinking.  When I've realized it I have apologized.  Actually, it is you, Interalia, along with a number of others here on Susan's who have shown me how often I fall into that trap.  I really dislike that I do it sometimes and am working on doing it never.

I think it is safe to say that each of us on this site has something in common – a problem with gender, either our own or someone we know.  Some of us resolve that problem in one way, others in other ways.  I can try to understand what drives you to do what you do, but I can't criticize you for doing it your way because I have different things driving me. 

What works for me probably won't work for you.  I can tell you what worked for me, but you need to weigh that against your needs and situation.  It is very helpful to read other people's solutions to problems I'm facing.  It is helpful to read that others have felt as I feel.  It is helpful to read that others have struggled and overcome their problems.  That doesn't mean I will follow their path.

Thank you, Interalia, for bringing this up.  It raises some very important issues of why we are here on Susan's.

*hugs*
Kate

Dear dear Interalia,

I may not always agree with you, but I will always support you.  In fact there is a saying that was quoted from here ...

Quote"If you think you can find a way to help you get by, do that instead.  If you are not ready to risk it all, if you're not ready to lose everything,   Do not transition."

And I always think of you.  There are many who do not wish to transition that could look to you for pointers and guidance.  May you always have fair seas, a strong wind at your back and a star to guide you by.


Hugs Dear Interalia,
Janet

Are you a living being that can touch and feel? Well, then you are real.

But then again, I've learned that when I crashed into something and it hurt like all heck that it was real also  :P

Dang, most everything on this planet is real!!! Who'd a thought  ???

It's terrible that you feel as though you have been singled out in any way or form. I personally don't judge anyone unless they judge others. So you are as welcome as anyone else here to post in my topics, PM Me, or whatever really. I try not to take anything to heart =]

Quote from: Miniar on December 19, 2009, 05:47:03 AM
Interalia, you are a good person, clever, and I enjoy your posts.
No one on this forum has the right to tell you how to live your life, nor to condemn you for doing things any different than they choose to.
In fact, referring to you, or anyone, as less "real" than anyone, is expressly against the rules.

I agree with this.

You are who you are, and to heck with the rest. Don't let them bring you down, or invalidate your existence.

Don't worry about it. If you even have a sense of humor beyond the same old jokes that have been passed about before you were a child, almost everyone will find some stupid reason to hate you

Just be yourself and don't worry on things so much

Quote from: Virginia Marie on December 19, 2009, 09:59:17 PM
Are you a living being that can touch and feel? Well, then you are real.

But then again, I've learned that when I crashed into something and it hurt like all heck that it was real also  :P

Dang, most everything on this planet is real!!! Who'd a thought  ???

and boy do I know it. ran full force into a brick wall once. Turns out it was more immovable than I was unstoppable. 

i have since ive become a member of this forum always valued your imput
jessica

I appreciate the responses, but I truly am not the target of my post.  I only mentioned I had been derided not to evoke sympathy for me, but to show others who have been derided that I have been where they are, know what they are going through. I wanted to say that while many will argue your validity and debate the "cause" of transsexualism/GID, and while many will seek to justify their own actions by ripping down yours, in the end it all boils down to one thing.  What will YOU do about it.  Regardless of your supposed validity in the minds of others, you STILL have a pain inside that threatens you daily and something must be done about it.

I offered my support to those who wish to try to fix (mitigate) their problem, rather than those looking to justify themselves at the expense of others.  Also I wrote this to tell everyone that we could benefit a lot more with some honesty. 

People are afraid to be honest though.  What happens if someone mentions they masturbate while crossdressing?  What happens if someone mentions they only found out their were TS at the age of 45?  I mean, there is so much fear to be labeled something that is inconsistent with their feelings (like an transgenderist or ->-bleeped-<-) that people will deceive others (and themselves) in order not to experience that ridicule and self doubt.

My question is, does your condition, however it manifests, result in distress?  If the answer is yes, I extend my hand to you, brother or sister, and say, let's find a solution together then.  We might not find the same, but we can help one another by sharing our experiences openly and without fear of reprisal or ridicule.

From this man known as Memy...
There is wisdom in realising that one can not be measured by anothers rule, what is right for me may not be right for you.  We are all uneak & have individual needs/aspirations, I think it would be a terrible world if we were all the same as such a world would be stagnant.
I do my best not to bash anyone for living their life the way they want &/or need to, so long as they do not force pain on others all is good.

Interalia, I think I get what you are saying.  My path to transition wasn't traditional in some ways but was in others.  It took opening up to others to actually open up to myself.  If you asked what I was a year ago I problably would have said a cross-dresser.  Now I know I am a woman. ::)  But it took me a long time and a lot of wondering and searching to finally get here.  I don't know that there is any "right" way to do it.  We just slog along through the brambles until we find the clearing that has our name on it.

And I agree, Memy, that we are all different.  I celebrate that because it seems like nothing would ever get done if we all wanted to do A and no one wanted to do B even though it needed doing.  What I tell people is that if all trees were pine trees, we wouldn't have any trees because something would kill them off.  Life needs to be diverse to be robust enough to survive, and being transgendered is just part of that divirsity.

There is a natural tendency to try to fit in.  We are social animals.  So in attempting to fit in we define the "right" way to be transgendered.  But it doesn't work that way.  There is only the right way for each of us.

Thanks for raising this issue, Interalia.

- Kate

Quote from: interalia on December 21, 2009, 11:15:29 AM
My question is, does your condition, however it manifests, result in distress?  If the answer is yes, I extend my hand to you, brother or sister, and say, let's find a solution together then.  We might not find the same, but we can help one another by sharing our experiences openly and without fear of reprisal or ridicule.

damn, I sat with my finger on the "quote" button for 5 minutes, waiting to stop crying. I din't think I was going to be able to comment on this thread until I read this, then all hell broke loose. Now I need another 5 to gets my thoughts in perspective.
Distressed is a mild way of putting it, that I cause my wife such grief as to leave me over this, to come into my own awakening, only to be paranoid of being chided at every turn. Distressed because I waver between excitement and utter fear of being seen as I leave my house dressed. Knowing that sooner than later, I need to "come out" at work and the reaction of my fellow employees, I mean running a printing press ain't the most feminine job in the world, (enter- Rosie the Riveter). Tonight I told my dad, and it took me an hour to try and hit "send" on the email, I was too damn scared to call him. I still haven't told my son, 3000 miles away, and want to see him and tell him in person, I owe him that, but can't afford to get there. Alone for Christmas, a pending divorce, and the light at the end keeps flickering on-off-on...

Yeah I'm a bit distressed, upset, scared, but damn I'm ONE PROUD BITCH, and I'm gonna fight this to the end, and now I find the people who can help to guide and console, my happiness is returning, as well as the tears.

Thank you for being here, Evie

Interalia,

I've appreciated your posts on many levels. As someone else who has struggled for years to come to terms with my GID and eventually concluded that I will not transition, I identify strongly with much of what you say. I also have felt the judgemental responses to some of my posts. While outwardly accepting, they often include the suggestion that either: 1) it'll never go away and eventually I'll see the right course is to transition, 2) I must not really be TS, I would realize that I have to transition or die.

You have opened the discussion that there may be other options that may work for some people. Reading your posts has helped me to realize that I am not alone, that there are others who are trying to approach this problem differently, that my choices have validity also, and there may be things I can do to help deal with it. I know it's never going to be easy, but it helps me to read of others who are trying alternatives also.

Please keep posting and sharing your perspectives.

Steph

Even if I were to stop posting here (not likely in the forseeable future), I'm sure I'd be posting somewhere. ;)  I appreciate knowing your feelings too, stephb, as well as so many others here.

Quote from: interalia on December 19, 2009, 02:59:45 AM

I have been called most names in the book.  I've been accused of being every variation of transgender out there with more than a few asserting that I don't really have any problem at all - that this is in my head.  I have had transitioners tell me I'm don't fit with them because I ended my transition, while I've had de-transitioners tell me I don't fit with them because I don't regret transition.  Some have trumpeted that I am a success while others focus on my failures.  I have had some diminish my pain, while others ask me to succumb to it.  I have been labeled a freak while at the same time too normal.  I have been derided for all the things for which I've been lauded.

It must feel difficult. what ever road you take i hope you the best and offer you a virtual hug.

I 100% agree with you Interalia.

Pretty much all of us know how it feels to doubt ourselves or try to live and compromise as our 'birth gender'. Most importantly not all of us see transitioning is the only way to live our lives. It's not a cut and dry issue that's for sure.

I will always welcome you here, and I'm sure all of us do if we can just get past our boxed in way of thinking.

Thank you for raising an important issue, Interalia. I ran into this kind of discomfort going to a "transgender conversations" drop-in group. Over-all it has been helpful, but I could tell others were uncomfortable with me. I do not have a textbook experience of this. i came believe I needed to explore this persistent itch late in life. Others in the group acted very suspicious. They asked very personal questions such as if I was wearing panties.

I almost left; I almost did not go back.

But I needed to stay, and I told myself that the people who were suspicious were afraid and had been hurt in the past. I tried to be patient and open, even though it was hard. I was so uncertain of myself and this growing conviction that I was not the person I had always presented myself to be. I ended up being glad I stayed - well more glad I went back. Once people started to believe I was not there to hurt or mess with them, they were friendly and helpful.

I appreciate the rules of this site so much. Mostly people have been very respectful of differences. I spent my life defending against others' expected perceptions and expectations. I am trying to believe others' perceptions are neither my business nor my problem. But I have fears also, and being told I am not valid or real or anything like that is too close to the voices inside that criticize me.

I believe fear is only one reason people criticize others who are different, but it is a big one. Why, I do not know, but some people are threatened by anyone who is different.  Some "Cis" mundanes feel threatened by any kind of trans and some trans seem to think there is only one way.

I appreciate the diversity of paths, experiences and motives discussed here. Thank you all.

I Identify with what you say, IMO it's not a thing that only happens to people following a path like yours & Interalias it can happen to anyone that takes an interest in their fellow being.

Better late than never....I finally caught up with this thread...

I just want to add my support interalia, I regularly read your topics with interest ;)

The title banner of this forum says "We stand at the crossroads of gender balanced on the sharp edge of a knife"...

..and that is exactly how I see it...We come here to discuss and support, and we should avoid the temptation to "push" individuals at all costs..

Having said that, I can also understand the single minded commitment many of us need to maintain during transition, to just survive the ordeal.... and I have found that like you, I rarely feel the need to defend myself these days, but I am more likely to seek to defend others to redress a balance..

Chrissty