Susan's Place Transgender Resources

Ok, I have a serious question here. How bad can things get if a trans person is put in jail? The reason I ask is because I was recently arrested with a false DUI charge. Luckily, they did this as a "paper arrest" meaning they normally cite and release you on the scene and you have to appear in criminal court later. I don't want to get into many details because if there is any type of criminal investigation going on, the last thing I need is for anything I say to be used against me in court. Anyway, I was dressed in my preferred gender role (female) but my legal name and documents refer to me as male. I was interrogated by a bunch of police officers who were mainly highway patrol/state troopers who insisted that I was driving drunk but dropped the charges after the blood test.

This is a bit of a wakeup call to me and should be to others here who have not completed transition. You don't have to break the law to be in trouble with the law and you can be falsely charged or simply be in the wrong place at the wrong time. What kind of treatment should a MTF or FTM expect to receive by law enforcement and especially if placed in a county jail for holding? I was quite uncomfortable with the physical search that the male
officers performed which would never be tolerated by any genetic female. Worse, had they fully arrested me, I would have been thrown in with the men. I won't deny I had frightening visions of being beaten and gang-raped with police officers watching and even participating. I would hope the system isn't that bad but I'm not one to be very trusting of people including authority figures. Either way, it cannot be good for a transwoman to be in a holding cell with a bunch of men.

Has anyone had any experience with this or any advice on how to handle yourself or what your rights are? I have not yet talked to an attorney because the charges were dropped. This took place in Maricopa County, AZ which is the land of Sheriff Joe Arpaio commonly known as "America's toughest sheriff." I hope nobody here has had terrible experiences and I hope this doesn't happen to anyone else. You can be a law abiding citizen and still have trouble with the law. Any thoughts are very welcome. Britney

I faced a similar charge.  But I was guilty, I was blitzed and was trying to commit the sin we all face. Suicide.

I just wanted it to end.  Were you drunk?  If yes, go for the diversion.  I did and never had to explain myself.  But it can show up on your record.


Find peace,
Janet

Make sure your HRT prescriptions are up to date. And legal -- not DIY. Otherwise they won't let you take your meds. You don't want your estrogen to crash or yout T to spike; that would make you crazy at about the worst possible time. That's all I have other than to tell you to keep your nose squeaky clean.

As a criminal defence lawyer, I know that people are often wrongly accused and put through hell before they're exonerated. And no, there aren't many rights for trans people in prisons, particularly not in remand (which is the pre-trial detention). Keep your nose clean is great advice, but it's not going to help people who aren't doing anything wrong and still wind up in the system.

And I hate to say it but if you're in that situation, fighting for your rights should be your last resort. Fighting to get out should be your first and if it means you have to compromise your principles (which DOES NOT mean admitting guilt if you're not guilty), do it. Never admit guilt if you're not guilty. You'd be surprised at how many people will just because they think it will improve their situation. But if you have to dress as a guy or a girl or go into a psych remand or whatever to get out, do it. If everything else fails, then fight for your rights. But if you start out that way, you start out oppositional and you will have a hell of a fight and guilty or innocent, the state will bring everything to bear upon you.

This cynical moment brought to you by

Dennis

Good god, I was reading through your post and saying to myself "thank heaven she doesn't live in Maricopa County" and then wham. Holy criminey girl I would suggest getting the hell out of there, period. Sheriff Joe likes to arrest ->-bleeped-<-s for ~whatever~ and feed them to the jail population as a reward for good behavior. His people will beat you, shoot you, taser you, or you might very well just disappear if you get to be too mouthy. I don't mean to sound defeatist but the constitution doesn't apply in southern Arizona. It might someday but it's going to take one hell of a victim to make that happen and I for one don't want to be that person.

You can't beat him, the FBI and lately homeland defense have tried...several times. My suggestion to you as a mtf transexual if you can't get out of Phoenix (and I lived there for 10 years) is to stay hell in after dark or go out in very large groups because the police are just as much of an enemy if not more as the gangs. Even if he eventually does something that brings him down it will be something he did to a mexican...nobody in that state cares about people like us so seriously, go.

yikes Maricopa County his reputation is knowm eveywhere..ive given this advice before in chat there are somethings you can do if arrested as far as for your safety. the most important is have your therapists letter with you saying you are being treated for trans. this applies to preops only post ops should never be housed with men ever. upon being arrested tell the officers at the booking location that your trans and offer them the letter or tell them of its existance if they have removed it from your person. Imeadiatly reguest administrative segragation or ad-seg as we call it.
make sure you get everyones name at least mentally that is around when you request it incase god forbid you are harmed in custudy. While police have no duty to protect jails do. Once you remove a persons ability to protect themselfs you assume civil liability for their safety. Of course non of this may help you in mericopa county but in other places it should
jessica

It comes down to legalities.  If you are on HRT and have breasts and the overall appearance of being female the jail might, MIGHT, search for an alternative housing situation.  Generally there are none because of overcrowding in which case you would be put in general male population.  Some jails may choose to put you into the solitary confinement cells (which are one person) for your safety but that's up to the discretion of the jail officers. 

If you are jailed in a large jail, for something that may require a stay of more than one day, your female clothing will be removed, you will be given a body search by a male officer(you don't get a choice in this, it's based on your sex) and given a set of jail clothes.  You may or may not be permitted to wash your makeup off.  Some jails will only allow you water to wash it off, but as we all know, water isn't going to take much off by itself.  You will be put into a holding cell that generally houses as many 20 or more.  The cell will be monitored but by the time help came the act itself would be over (I think you can imagine what I'm talking about).  Make no mistake, be it in Maricopa County or not, jail is a bad place.  A very, VERY bad place for TG people. 

Now..if you are post op and have the appropriate documentation you will be housed with the women, which, while better than the men is certainly no picnic.  Those women are there for a reason..they are hard and mean. It's not the woman's jail or prison portrayed on TV where they join in solidarity and become sisters forever.

As much as I hate to say it, I agree with Becca. I've been reading up on this guy and if you have any fear at all of being arrested, get out.
He is known for arresting without cause, encouraging inmate violence, ignoring sexual assault, and denying medical attention to his inmates. More than one person has died before they could be put to trial.
I believe I saw a testimonial a while ago from a transgendered woman who was detained by him. I'll see if I can dig it up.

I've found a Wikipedia entry for this guy. He and the community sound like a bunch of political weidos. If he was in Iran or Russia, I don't doubt the US would be ranting from the rooftops about him.

Here in the UK or police are apolitical. I'm not claiming they never harrase people who are different, but it is fairly rare. Generally when there is suspicission that a crime may be committed or strong community reaction. Transgender people, for example, would probably go unnoticed, in much of the UK, unless they made themselves too obvious.

The Tories are proposing to bring in US style policing, if they win the next election. Part of their obscession of making the UK into a de facto US state. Hopefully that won't happen.

Anyway, here's the wiki link:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Arpaio (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Arpaio)

As far as Sheriff Arpaio goes I can't comment on someone saying he targets TG people because I've never heard that before and I'm not really "in the loop" to have that kind of information. Yes, politically he's way out there and I wouldn't invite the man to dinner but what I can say is that I think the way he runs his jail is fine by me. He runs his jail like jails should be run. No cable TV, no cookie breaks, no ping pong tables in the exercise yard, just a hard ass jail for hard ass inmates.  Putting these slugs back on chain gangs to clean streets and vacant lots is way overdue.  Making them wear pink underwear is another great deterrent.  I could go on and on.  Yeah it's a tough jail, maybe the toughest around, but if you ask former 'guests' even they will tell you they try extra hard to avoid going back. There is a fantastic documentary out there about Arpaio's jail and it's pro's and con's.  It's not a perfect system but it's a big step forward from the way jails are being run now in the rest of the country. Obviously if you are innocent and find yourself there it's gonna suck but that's anywhere.

Have inmates been treated badly? In some cases absolutely.  You have hyper aggressive and violent offenders and you have, generally, alpha personalities watching over them, the occasional clash is unavoidable unfortunately.  What I've learned from being a police officer and dealing with arrestee's and inmates is that everybody is innocent, everyone has been abused by the police, everyone has been denied medical care, everyone has had their rights stepped on in some form or fashion.  I don't care if you are in full uniform and standing next to a guy who steals a diamond ring while you watch him he will scream, cry, fall on the floor and flop around like a fish while proclaiming his innocence and how god knows he's innocent and how he's being arrested because of his race, his gender, his religion or his haircut.  That's just the way it works. Not saying the occasional claim isn't true because we all know it happens BUT that is a very small percentage and the rest are just trying to con you.

I've come close (as a complete dressed girl) but I was in a very sorrowful state when my then wife said she was going to visit her sick mom for a couple of weeks, well 3 months later and no phone calls I thought she had left me, and as I was really bummed I decided to drown myself in 14 double margaritas. ::)
When (how I got there I'll pass on) I got to booking at the Burbank jail I realized my legs were shaved, my toes were painted and I was wearing panties. OOps! The cop who was interviewing me as I undressed never said a word. I found myself being taken to a cell that held 6 but I was put in alone. That was well spent time sobering up :embarrassed:
When I went in front of the Judge the next day I overheard the Prosecuting attorney whispering something to the Judge, then I saw them looking at me, and the attorney said "I don't know, I'm not going to ask him..."
I know they were referring to my "fem" items on the docket, but nothing was ever said and the issue was resolved (the bar dropped the charges), but the judge wanted to make an example so I spent 6 days in County :police:

p.s. The bar was 2 blocks away from my house, I walked, should have said that earlier

I don't know why but it's kinda bugging me the way you kids talk so freely about drinking and driving but get your hearts all aflutter over going out in a skirt. They are nazis about dui because it's not a victimless crime. Sorry to be the snooty one this time around and I hate it when people get all preachy, but meh come on.

I admit to the occasional vicodin binge but I don't go for a joyride while I'm baked. I mean, are you people just asking for it? I lived under Sheriff Joe's rule for years and I never once had a run in with his people, because I obeyed the law, was respectful and private, kept away from trouble and kept my head down. I didn't go around asking for it.

For me, Becca, it is called suicide.  I was trying to kill myself because I was tired of fighting GID, so no I am not proud of the fact that I drove drunk.

But it happens.


Janet

Quote from: Janet Lynn on December 20, 2009, 09:02:57 PMIf yes, go for the diversion.

I would hate to be perceived as minimizing your pain, because I know the pain of being both suicidal and trans. However this line your'e trying to pass off sounds more like an excuse and a cop out to me and I think they shoulda locked your ass up, at least in the psych ward to try and teach you to think beyond the end of your own nose. You definitely don't deserve what Sheriff Joe would have done to you, but now you've got me wondering if you still woulda tried that crap if he was the boss around here. If you must kill yourself then next time drive to a cliff, get wasted and drive off it. Or use pills like the rest of us. Why do you have to try and take out me and my little nieces in the process? We didn't do anything to you.

I don't know if you are talking to me or who you are referring to.  But that was totally uncalled for.


Janet

Uh oh

Sheriff Joe is a perfect metaphor for our time.  He is so much bull ->-bleeped-<- stacked just as high as he is.  And he stinks for miles down wind.  America's toughest cop, hell, he ain't even a real cop.  He's an elected official who's major job is to run the jail.  I bet the Phoenix city cops are much tougher, and have a much harder job.  But real cops can't have their face splashed across the TV every night. He ain't no DEA, or ATF, he's not really going up against all that many major violent felons, he's making busts for overdue tickets and missed court appearances.  He ain't on patrol in Bed-Sty, or South Central, or Oakland or Miami.  And Maricopa County Jail, is not Attica, Sing Sing, Parchman Farm, San Quentin, Folsom, or any of the super-max, or big federal prisons.  Hell I can guarantee you that a day in Angola prison in Louisiana is worse than a year in Maricopa.

He isn't fit to do a real day of real police work in a real crime environment, he's not a tough cop, he's just another posing elected official.

Thanks for everyone's responses. First of all, I'm not per se against Sheriff Joe Arpaio. In fact, I actually voted for him. I believe in being tough on crime and it is becoming obvious to me that crime is getting out of control. However, being tough on crime does not mean violating suspects' Constitutional rights nor does it mean committing violence against suspects. It is in our Constitution that the government is prohibited from inflicting "cruel and unusual punishment." We also have the right to remain silent, right to an attorney, and right not to be subject to unreasonable searches and seizures. We are also innocent until proven guilty.

I don't believe drunk driving is to be taken lightly either. Obviously, I was below the legal limit or I would have been charged and several of my Constitutional rights were violated particularly the search and seizure issue. They dropped the charge of DUI so I don't have to go to court over this and the issue is basically over but they illegally searched my car without probable cause, searched luggage without a valid search warrant, and seized the vehicle itself forcing me to pay over a hundred dollars to get it out of storage.

Most of the police I dealt with were not Sheriff's deputies but state troopers (Arizona DPS/Highway Patrol). This happened when I was leaving Scottsdale, AZ and going to Phoenix, AZ (adjacent cities). The reason I bring this up is because a trans person is a unique case when it comes to the criminal system. If we are post-transition transsexuals, then we are put in jail with our new gender (the post-op gender) but if we are mid-transition or pre-transition or even just part-time crossdressers, they are going to book us in with our cisgender.

This is what concerns me. You can be doing everything perfect and be arrested. I was simply driving from Scottsdale to Phoenix so I should have just been one of many cars on the road. I can try to be as low profile as possible by driving the speed limit and not loitering in public places for long but I don't believe you should have to stop living your life out of fear of big government harrassing you. I personally think the comments here about leaving the county are a bit ridiculous. I'm not living my life in fear or running away from problems.

Also, I'm not on HRT yet either but that was a good idea that if you are to make sure you have a valid prescription or something or if you carry it around in your purse to make sure it is in a marked bottle from the pharmacy. It is also a good idea to be upfront and professional with law enforcement which I was but NEVER admit guilt which I did not. Being polite should never include waiving your Constitutional rights. I don't know if anyone else has any better and more practical ideas but it certainly does seem a bit scary. I'm sure most police officers are trained to be professional and some even go through diversity training but there are bad cops out there and you don't want to end up brutally beaten, raped, or even killed by law enforcement or while in a holding cell. At the same time, it is not feasible to live your whole life indoors scared to go outside for fear of what could happen. Maybe I'll just have to start watching my back more often. Good situational awareness is important whether it be criminals you are worrying about--or cops.

The legal definition of an arrest is not being free to leave. Many different situations qualify as an arrest, including:

•being booked at a police station
•being placed in handcuffs, or
•being put in the back of a locked police car
Any situation where a reasonable person would not think they are free to leave is an arrest.
any search while incidental to an arrest is constitutional
E.g., Johnson v. United States, 333 U.S. 10, 14 (1948); McDonald v. United States, 335 U.S. 451, 453 (1948); Camara v. Municipal Court, 387 U.S. 523, 528 -29 (1967); G.M. Leasing Corp. v. United States, 429 U.S. 338, 352 -53, 355 (1977).

---

Post Merge: December 23, 2009, 02:24:45 AM

---

Carrol vs United states first established the reduced expectation of privacy in a vehicle that travels public roadways.
jessica

Yeah I though the Supremes said that police can pretty much search any car on a public road for just about any sort of BS reason.  Particularly in high crime areas, or areas of known drug trafficking - like the I-10, or just about anywhere that's not the DEA parking lot in D.C.  So its become almost impossible to get those searches tossed in court anymore as Jesse correctly pointed out you don't have the same 'reasonable expectation of privacy' on a public road as a licensed driver that you have in your house, and an unlicensed driver on a public road is already guilty of a crime, so that search is always legal.

And, that of course makes no difference as its a judge, not a cop, who decides if rights are violated or not.  My lawyer told me decades and decades ago now that you never have a discussion about your Constitutional Rights on the side of the road with your potential arresting officer, that's what he talks to the judge about, not what I talk to the cop about.

I was arrested in Los Angeles about a year & a half ago... had a medical marijuana license, and medicine in the car, and the cops didn't believe in state law, apparently. They cuffed me, took me off to jail (nope, didn't read me my rights, but since I couldn't afford a lawyer, oh well), and proceeded to tell me I'd need to be strip searched. At the time, I had been on T for roughly 4 months, had an ID with the proper name and M on it, so they assumed I was any other guy. I told them I couldn't be strip searched, and when I explained why, they sent in a female cop who put me through the search. It was one of the most demoralizing experiences of my life, and after she'd made me strip every item of clothing from my body and bend every which way, she and the other officers began referring to me as female. They put me in a cell with another girl, and I was able to sleep. God knows what might have occurred if I'd had to spend more than a night there.

I like how you (Britney) said that you can do everything right and still be arrested... that's what I was doing, or so I thought. I had my legal medical marijuana card, and the only reason I was pulled over was my headlight had gone out. You're never really safe enough. All I can really say is, try to stay out of trouble, and make sure you have money for a good lawyer, should anything happen.

SD

I was stopped once, about 35 years ago, at night, while out driving in full feminine dress. I had stopped at a closed gas station to buy a soda out of the machine, and was pulled over after leaving the station. That was probably proper, although I was making a legal purchase out in the open. The officers spent more time than usual for a car stop, full I.D. review, record check, what was I up to, why was I dressed in women's clothes. I could tell they were a little confused, and looking for a reason to take me in.

Whether being stopped for a ticket or for the above incident, I always am courtous, polite and cooperative. There was no charge they could come up with, so I was turned loose with "just watch it" type comment. Interestingly, 15 years later, that cop was retired, and I hired him for a job I supervised. I never knew whether he tied me up with that ->-bleeped-<- he had stopped. I didn't enlighten him.

SusanKG

hey sabastian im not positive on cali law but as far as colorado goes miranda is not required on misdeamenor arrests only felonies. and for mary j to be considered a felonie anymore you would have to have a boat load of it bagged for sale lol
jessica

I was arrested in Los Angeles about a year & a half ago... had a medical marijuana license, and medicine in the car, and the cops didn't believe in state law, apparently.

Yeah, that sounds like the LAPD we all know and love, everyone I know always thought there motto was "we'll arrest you now, and figure out what your guilty of later" because in their eyes, everyone in LA is guilty of something.

Miranda isn't required upon arrest..that's TV crap that everyone believes to be true.  Miranda is only required upon custody AND questioning together not just custody.  Also police do have to meet certain criteria before searching a vehicle.  They cannot do a vehicle searches just for traffic stop.  They can do a full search if you have something in "plain view" such as drug paraphernalia or you are if you are being arrested.  They can do a full search if you consent or if a drug dog alerts on your vehicle or a few other reasons.  It's a fallacy that they can search your vehicle for almost any reason just because you are on a public street.  I know it's fun to claim that but it's simply not true.  That being said, yes, it's possible that you may be subject to an illegal search, however, cases are tossed all the time because of that very thing.  Most officers will try to follow the rules because nothing sucks worse than wasting your day off sitting in court testifying just to have a case tossed on a technicality.

I get so tired of the generalizations people make about police officers.  The majority of them are doing what they can with what they have and that's not much in comparison to what the bad guys have.  Sure there are some bad ones out there, it's inevitable when dealing with predominately alpha personalities, but they are a much smaller percentage than people portray.  I knew a guy that would show up late for work at least once a week pissed off and cussing the police about how he was mistreated and how they constantly writing him traffic citations for no reason.  I asked if actually was speeding, running the red and not using his signals when he came to work and he said "Yeah but there was no one else on the road at that hour so it's harassment to write me for that".  I told him the law didn't say you had to obey the speed limit, stop at red lights and use your turn signals only when someone else is around so if he wanted to be mad at anyone he should be mad at himself.  It's that kind of mentality that breeds the ridiculous animosity against police officers.   Wanna be mad? Be mad when a police officer actually does something wrong..not something you happen to think is wrong.  They have a term for people who get arrested and start complaining about their rights being violated.  They call them "TV lawyers" because they start quoting things from television, such as Miranda, that may sound good on a TV show but are generally partially or completely fictional.

So brandi in your former agencie you didnt miranda felony arrests i find this interesting we are required to oh well different states different requirements i guess but since this is a matter of constitutional law i would have thought it would be the same everywhere but apparently not. as far as the vehicle search goes if they have probable cause to arrest they have probable cause to search ive never had one thrown out but again thats here.
jessica

---

Post Merge: December 25, 2009, 02:24:45 AM

---

as a side note to miranda it is only required here if we are going to question them in the car after bookin they are given it again and a form presented to them in writing for them to sign in spanish and english saying they understand so maybe its departmental policy overkill i dont know. i remember a 2nd degree assault case where the kid wouldnt shut up so i had to miranda him he basically admitted to the whole charge and gave his reasoning for it im sure you have had this happen too. my point is what happens if he admits all the way to the house and then shuts up and says nothin when he's interviewed? Ive been doing this for 12 years when i started it wasnt required now it is.
jessica