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I am not spanish i am mostly serbian but living in the US there is such a big push for the spanish language in this country and a lot of debate about people learning it?  Why cannot spanish speaking individuals coming into this country learn the english language?  when you call into my banks automated service it has recording in english first then spanish for cryin out loud?
I do not get it?
For any country as a rule?  If i go to greece and they speak with an english tongue great but if i go to a country that does not and move there why should i expect that country to make all its citizens learn my language?
Sorry and please if anyone of spanish descent reads or replies this is not meant ot insult or upset just my thoughts
R

I agree with you Ricki.  "When in Rome, do what Romans do", right?

I guess people are just getting lazy and don't want lo learn; that's the only reason that comes to mind, for ESL classes are offerred in most community colleges or adult schools and they are FREE.  It takes time, it takes effort, it takes determination,  but it can be done....

....and another thing coming from a Spanish-native speaker, the "supposed translated Spanish" I hear or read IS NOT the Spanish I know, for it sounds more like span-glish or something else to me... >:(


tinkerbell :icon_chick:

Thanks Tinkerbell, its just weird and frustrating?  gee i have a good idea lets mandate that we make everyone study up on gender issues and accept them?
I'm a genius! hehe
Wishfull thinking i know!
R

              Most hispanic immigrants want to learn english and most do in time. The reason there seems to be many who only speak only spanish is because there are so very many that have immigrated in recent years. Large numbers mean large communities where spanish is used and this allows those who are new to function without english. Basic services like applying for welfare or health care should have forms in all needed languages. Things like drivers licences or voting should only be in english. There is too much information that would not be available to non english speaking voters.


beth

I could not disagree more strongly with anyone that enforces the opinion that white culture is the only allowable one. It's like the people that say bianary gender hedgenomy is a good idea because they have no care or concept of people that can't fit into that system.

Dejar de la imperialismo de las personas blancas en la Estados Unidos.

Bri

ps- Learn Spanish.

I live in an area with a growing latino population.  Unfortunately many are here illegally and most demand that everyone speak their language.  I had one get as mouthy with me as he could in English with him ultimately asking why I did not speak English.  I replied in two other languages and then asked in English why he did not take time to learn them so we could talk.  He went away.

There have been other large populations of immigrants who have come to this country.  A professor of mine was from Ireland and grew up in a large population of Irish immigrants.  They were discriminated against, heavily and often denied even public school.  The schools he did attend gave seperate tests for the Irish and made it near impossible for them to pass.  He did and he went on to live the American dream.  In his childhood his grandfather declared that they were in America and so only English was to be spoken.  Prior to that there were three languages that were used in the household.  The difference is that they did not feel that anything should just be handed to them and that they had to work to become a part of America, not seperate from it.

Should English be declared the national language?  Why not?  I have no issues with that and I have talked with other immigrants from countries such as Russia, Germany, Korea, and Norway who arrived without an English vocabulary and now communicate clearly in English.

On the flipside if I were going to move to another country or stay for an extended visit I would do my best to learn the local language and also to travel with someone who was fluent until I could get by on my own.

I think that those who demand that we adapt everything are just lazy and do not want to take the time to learn an essential skill.

Now that is not to say that the "white culture" is the only acceptable one.  I love learning about other cultures and customs from all over the world, past and present.  Variety is the spice of life and who knows, one day I may be able to travel to other countries and use what I have learned from the immigrants in the US.

Hi Brianna i appreciate your response and candor here is a sentence from your post
""could not disagree more strongly with anyone that enforces the opinion that white culture is the only allowable one""
I am most certainly not trying to say that the language issue is a white culture issue. 
I actually had not even thought about the culture or anything that would follow that line of thinking?  I basically was thinking of the language only?  I think if you know the english language and go somewhere and its spoken as a second or third language that is great people say France, canada, quite a few countries seem bi-lingual or have bilingual citizens.
These are just my feelings on this I was brought up learning the english language and as i've gotten older I've started to experience different things, going into a denny's and no employees there speaking any language but spanish?  Okay?
that did not help I was pointing at the menu like i was in another country as a visitor?  I do not have an agenda to learn another language but if i did it would be Serbian first.  I have no desire to learn any other languages at this point.  but i guess we all hopefully agree to disagree on this or any other subject matter, that's what makes us special and different.
thanks
Ricki

Cerca de todo de los persones estadounidences son monolinguistica. Pienso es que estadounidences no quieren apreneden otra idiomas. Esadounidences tengen obisidad de la mente y tambien la escupturas.

No quiere eschuchar estadounidences dicen a otras culturas no es permisable en la Estados Unidos.  Le cultura de personas blancas y arogancia son simpatica de la Mary Kate y se drogas.

Bri

That's not nice!  :'(
r

Quote from: Ricki on October 29, 2006, 06:26:32 PM
That's not nice!  :'(
r

No it wasn't.  I thought your impetus was attitude without obloquy. ;)

Melissa

Quote from: Melissa on October 29, 2006, 09:34:30 PM

I thought your impetus was attitude without obloquy. ;)
[/quote]

Fair enough. Let me try explaining myself further - without obliquy.

Here are some random facts that I hope will explain my worldview.
1. Americans don't like learning other languages.
2. Americans have slaughtered 600,000 Iraqis that never attacked us and couldn't attack us - while breathlessly watching reality TV.

In my mind, these facts are not unrelated. Basically what I'm saying is until Americans learn some freaking humilty we will continue to be an imperialistic and murderous people. Universally promoting the complete equality of Spanish in our culture, to me, would be a great place for Americans to start eating some humble pie.

I generally think that phasing out white power in America is a good idea.

Bri, hispanohablantically

Sounds good to me. ;D

However, not all americans are like this.  For instance take me.  Since highschool, I have been interested in learning Chinese, French, and Thai languages.  I got the furthest on french though.  As a woman, I am opposed to violence and definitely don't approve of the war.  As for being humbled, I think most of the people on this forum have been humbled just by being TG in some capacity.  Anyways, I still see what you are saying, since you are most likely talking about the majority.  I think you and Ricki are really talking about the same thing from 2 different sides.  Ricki is talking about immigrants bothering to learn the country's native language and you are talking about the natives learning international languages.  It's all about who's willing to step out of their comfort zone and make the effort.  If both groups chose to learn other languages, communication wouldn't have so many barriers.  However, I will side with Ricki on this one as it's more practical for immigrants from 20 different countries to learn english as a second language, than it is to require US citizens to learn all 20 of those other languages.

Melissa

Quote from: Brianna on October 29, 2006, 09:54:31 PM

Fair enough. Let me try explaining myself further - without obliquy.

Here are some random facts that I hope will explain my worldview.
1. Americans don't like learning other languages.
2. Americans have slaughtered 600,000 Iraqis that never attacked us and couldn't attack us - while breathlessly watching reality TV.

In my mind, these facts are not unrelated. Basically what I'm saying is until Americans learn some freaking humilty we will continue to be an imperialistic and murderous people.
.
.
.

I generally think that phasing out white power in America is a good idea.

Bri, hispanohablantically

Yay - finally one yankee understands how everyone in Iraqi feels  ;D. It was very much given the Iraqis would not lik the Americans invading their home land. And to make mkatters worse the boarders where open up so anyone  who hated America (Middle east has lots of those type of people by the way) could waltz in and enjoy themselves  ;).

Phasing out Bush and he kind would be a good think. I am sure lots of peole here in Aussie land think the same way. Pitty the wrong person (a muslim cleric) said the right thing.

Alice

Lets see here...........

I dont speak spanish, but I wish I did....  Ive tried books and tapes but they dont work and my spanish speaking friends who say theyll teach me get frustrated when I dont remember the last lesson (mainly because it was 2 or 3 weeks before)   I have a very hard time grasping languages, especialy americanized english...... but back to the topic....

I live in a border town, well actualy a border city.... If you dont speak spanish your at a loss here... Its nearly impossable to get a job unless your bilingual... and not just any bilingual but english/spanish bilingual..

You have your visitors from across the border, they only speak spanish,  you have your older imigrants, again only spanish..  you have your young imigrants.. Some of these younger ones are amazing...

In highschool there were a group of these young ones that I shared classes with... 5 people in total... 3 of them would use not knowing english as a cruch (shame on them)  One of them was haveing a hard time but was honestly trying,  3 years later our senior year she had the language down and was mostly fluent in both languages... And finaly the one I considered a good friend....

This guy was amazeing,  when he first showed up he couldnt speak the language and didnt understand it at all...... by the end of our first semester together he could kind of comunicate in english and fully understood it...  By the end of that school year you would have never believed he was an Imigrant.. Flawless english, no accent... He could switch to spanish, and heres what he told me."America is a great place, a great Idea... A land with no official language of its own..  I didnt learn english because I had to.  I did it to prove it could be done... did you know its the buisness language of the world right now?  Im going to work on my german and japanise next."

As a country we dont have an official language, you can speak what ever you want leagley... yes the majority of the country speaks English now, but in 40 years, 100 years it could change... Do we addapt or do we try to force our belief on others.....  I know what the american way is.... but Id much rather follow the american Idea.....

Hi All,

I agree with you Ricki. When I spent some time in West Germany (how's that for dating myself?  lol) I had to learn German. It didn't have anything to do with German culture being the only enforcable one or even binary gender hedgemonies (eek! lol), I just wanted to see a country that was new to me and meet it's people. When I spent some time in France, sure there were people there who spoke English with England just across the channel, but I still tried to communicate in French. Most of time they gave me a sad smile and told me they understood English, but I believe the effort I put forth earned me some small level of respect. I tried to show respect for their cultures.

But, this is the United States of America. I may fear my government, but I do love my country. The USA has taken in people from all over the world, rich or poor, of so many different languages, ethnicities and backgrounds that there is a huge variation in in the backgrounds of those of us that are citizens. In the end, we have all grown togehter to form what is the present United States.

In each and every case, those people came together and formed communities based on their common languages in which, if they chose to stay, they could thrive and grow to some extent. But, in each case, if they wanted to escape that community, they had to learn English. Those that chose to stay usually spoke their native tongue till they died of old age. Please don't say it didn't happen, there are still small communities where you hear those languages spoken, Norwegian and Chinese in my own experience.

Those people were not forced to learn any language. People chose to learn English and to grow out of those established communities. They did so because one clear national language is more easily supported by any given country than many. When it somes down to it, it's a matter of logistics in my opinion. There are too many minority languages to support breaking down our government that far.

Should anyone be forced to learn English? No, not in my opinion. It's been that way in the past. Should people have to learn English to move out of their native communities? That's up to the individuals in question but it wouldn't hurt.  :)

Should the USA adopt Spanish as a second official language? Where would it stop? Chinese as the third official language, Russian as the fourth etc......

In my opinion, no. But that is only my opinion.

*hugs*

Genevieve

P.S. - I don't plan to learn Spanish. I don't have time for it. I'm at the very beginning of learning Thai and want to learn French. I'm seeking and finding my spirituality and learning to be a good Wiccan. And last and most importantly to me, I'm learning to be a woman and a Lady.   

Quote from: Genevieve on October 29, 2006, 11:49:06 PM
P.S. - I don't plan to learn Spanish. I don't have time for it. I'm at the very beginning of learning Thai and want to learn French. I'm seeking and finding my spirituality and learning to be a good Wiccan. And last and most importantly to me, I'm learning to be a woman and a Lady.   

Oh you are an interesting girl.  As I said above, I had worked on learning Thai and French as well.  I only tried Chinese in highschool and actually spanish in jr. high.  Also I was interested in a time in Wicca and my interest seemed to be picking up again more in that area, so I thought that was very interesting with our similarities.  As for being a woman and a lady, it's quite easy.  Just be yourself and be a good human.

Melissa

Hi there Tinkerbell and Melissa,

I don't know Alicia Tink, but may meet her in the future. I'm still really new to Wicca. I've been reading about it and have attended a number of Pegan and Witch meetups in my area as well as having just attended my first public ceremony Saturday. It was amazing! I've tried to fit in with Christianity so many times in my life but felt more comfortable and at home with the pagans than ever. This area around Olympia Wa is such a good and diverse area. I love it.   :)

It was a Samhain ritual and consisted of cleansing the area, creating the circle, calling the directions, the center, the God, the Goddess and the Ravens. We did a trance session and then did a Spiral Dance. It was all so involving and fun! Afterwards we released all that we had called, broke the circle and broke down into groups of friends and went out to dinner and discussion!

Who knows Tinkerbell, we may both end up being burned at the stake.     :o

As far as languages Melissa, I am at the very beginings of Thai, I'm in a local meetup group that was started by man and his wife who is from Thailand. We're just getting into it but I think it's going to be fun, especially as more join us. She, by the way, has learned to speak excellent English! Imagine that.  lol

French is still a fond dream but I'll see how Thai goes for a while.

Hugs to you both, and to you Ricki,   :D

Genevieve

Opinions do not equal facts.  Please cite the exact studies and the peer reviews for items 1) Americans do not like learning other languages and 2) the Iraqi casualty figure (so far it appears it will not stand up to peer review, but would be interested in what info you may have other than the initial report.  also their previous number and report a couple of years ago were thoroughly debunked).

Americans do not equal American government action.  When we vote (for those of us that we do), we have to trust that they government will act on our behalf in a manner that we may be able to support.  However, when they fail to do so then we must make our voices heard and actively work to vote in a replacement that mirrors our thoughts a bit better than the previous one.

Anecdotle evidence contrary to the first point.  Americans that I know who travel abroad know more than one language and one as many as seven.  Economically they range from pretty poor to well off.  A few others who do not travel out of the country can also speak in another language.

My world wide travel is limited especially since I lack a passport.  However, due to business and other interests I have learned bits and pieces of a few different languages (none of which is Spanish due to never really needing the skill).  Not enough to converse fluently but I have been able to help out non English speaking Japanese and German tourists when I worked in retail.  I also picked up more Hebrew than what I thought from watching soccer matches broadcast from there.  Amazed a friend of mine when they asked a few questions about the game but it was all done subconciously and I doubt that I would have gotten anything at all if it was not a televised broadcast.

I do have invites for France and Canada so I guess I will be learning enough French to survive on my own in the near future.  :)

Quote from: Brianna on October 29, 2006, 06:09:26 PMCerca de todo de los persones estadounidences son monolinguistica.

ou lexo peri toutou dioti ou dynamai anagigkoskein hoti elexas. ;)

I think there's an analogy between message boards and countries, at least to the extent that both are communities of interacting people. Would it really be fair to insist that everyone on this board learn Spanish because a few people here are fluent in it? Whouldn't we then have to extend that to the (undoubtedly numerous) other languages spoken by our members - would you be willing to learn ancient Greek?

As far as the language thing being a racial issue, Spanish is itself a "white" language. It was introduced to the New World by settlers from Spain, and is from the same Indo-European root as English, Russian, French, German.

Another factor with having a totally bilingual nation would be immigrants from other parts of the world that don't speak either language; they'd have to put in double the effort.

For the record, I dislike English. :) It's sloppy, it's imprecise, it sounds all warbly, and if I hadn't been raised speaking it from the crib I'd probably refuse to learn it.

Quote from: umop ap!sdn on October 30, 2006, 12:18:47 PM
For the record, I dislike English. :) It's sloppy, it's imprecise, it sounds all warbly, and if I hadn't been raised speaking it from the crib I'd probably refuse to learn it.

For the record, I do like english and am constantly working to improve my skills.  I never liked it going through school and I do agree it can be imprecise and sloppy, but it doesn't have to be.  There are so many words that are not commonly used, but which can be used to convey the precise meaning of the thought that you are trying to communicate.  However, you need to be open to learning new words and look up ones that you come accross and do not know the meaning to.  Also, being that women tend to be more verbal, good language skills can get you far.

Melissa

Melissa,

I agree wholeheartedly. English can be a very beautiful language and has a vast range of words available for use. The actual problem, I believe, is that American English has diverged from the original Queen's English enough that we've lost much of the eloquence and grace.

I've been trying to do the same thing regarding improving my vocabulary, speech and enunciation. In another thread I mentioned that I wanted to become both a woman and a Lady. I meant that in terms of what the English would define as a lady. I want to develope a side that is prim and propper and has excellent language skills.

It sounds like you want to be a Lady too Melissa.   :)

*hugs*

Genevieve

Quote from: Genevieve on October 30, 2006, 02:47:20 PM
It sounds like you want to be a Lady too Melissa.   :)

I've had people tell me that I already am, but I'll never call myself one, since that wouldn't be very ladylike. ;)

Melissa

Quote from: LostInTime on October 30, 2006, 11:17:10 AM
Opinions do not equal facts.  Please cite the exact studies and the peer reviews for items 1) Americans do not like learning other languages and 2) the Iraqi casualty figure (so far it appears it will not stand up to peer review, but would be interested in what info you may have other than the initial report.  also their previous number and report a couple of years ago were thoroughly debunked).

Oy. I envy the reality you live in to not already be aware of this. That number is a minimum according to the most recent peer reviewed war estimate.

Yes, this war has needlesly massacred at least 600,000 innocent people. That's the number, very sadly. 600,000 innocent people slaughtered that never attacked us and couldn't attack us. Almost 100,000 of them children that died for nothing other than the unfortune of being born Iraqi. Many of those children died of lack of food and medicine before they were old enough to know they were Iraqis. And all for nothing but a pack of American imperialistic lies and it's president that is a congenital liar. 

As to the language thing, that's too obvious to require proof.

Bri

Well I hoped not to open a can of worms i guess i did? Hmmmm
But you guys are awesome cause at least the discussion is on the up and up and has some vigor to it.
I'd like to add or reply to some comments!
L in Time a section
Americans do not equal American government action.  When we vote (for those of us that we do), we have to trust that they government will act on our behalf in a manner that we may be able to support
to any reading so you know my feelings:   i agree with this statement above by l in time-.  I say this honestly without trying to turn this to political.  The idea of the whole Iraqi scene and invasion / war i did not agree with as a vet or as a tax payer here...I could not control it though and it happened.  I fully supported a necessary and retalatory action from the 911 issues, our fine government chose this dumb route?  costing us (this country) lives, money, and making us vulnerable in the process.  That's my feeling in a small nutshell.
Genevieve:
your comments were lighthearted and heartfelt!  Thank you. 
I must work on my wording to make my point or feeling clearer, Because i honestly just meant the language piece?  I've found amazing culture in all aspects of other countries especially with foods even some Thai cooking teehee!  I will not disagree with a staement said that americans tend to americanize.. cannot explain it in my own head but its sort of out there, we take french cuisine and then butcher it into a mid scale family dining restaurant where its lost of all its identity and origin and reasoning.. So sad....
It was said by a great culinary person of Europe hundreds of years ago that the Americans Bastardized the culinary revolution.. Lot to be said there! 
One more thing the english language and its (what's the word i want) fluency or way we use it does need some work or retolling (heck the young kids have some weird retroformatetd language to their own it seems ) , I honestly think the British are awesome they way they speak the language much more formal and pronounciated with flair, even they way they joke sounds better?  The spanish and eevn mexican languages i think are more fluid it sounds clean/ good Australian languge is neat and sounds good, pronounciated as well.  Same with the french.  I never intended to make an opinion that english language was the "best" or anything that's for sure.  Had i grown up under a different set of education rules maybe i would speak two or three languages..I know nothing is stopping me or any of us now except our own busy lives!
But thank you thank you and hugs to all!
R

Dear R,

A basic tenant of Just War Theory is that we hold ourselves to the same standards we hold others to - if not more closely.

Under this tenant, if Americans go to war under the justification that our enemy is a mass murderer we are morally culpale when American leaders commit mass murderer.

So I disagree with what you are saying about the average American not having blood on their hands for the 600,000 innocent people our leaders and soldiers have slaughtered.

Bri

Brianna,

I and most of us here would be very interested in seeing the sources of your information. It would be nice to be able to have such factually based information on hand to refute (or encourage) certain political claims made by many candidates, if it exists.

As far as the "language thing" or any other controversial issue, there is no such thing as being "to obvious to require proof." Most often, such statements are made by people who do not know enough about the given subject themselves to provide proof and therefore are trying to create proof for their own opinions and suppositions while attempting to cover their own ignorance. Such people use tactics such as gross generalizations, stereotypes, profiling, manipulated statistical information and artificial inflation of numbers to create a desired emotional reaction in their readers.

We all know this is not the case with you and that you have good sources of information to support the opinions you have expressed. As I stated previously, good solid information from reliable sources is what we need to refute and/or encourage certain political positions.

Please provide links to reliable, non-sensationalistic sources for the information you have provided so we may all have access to it.

Thank you,

Gevenieve

My last post in the now mutating thread (hey, it is what we used to call this phenom back in the BBS days).

An actually pretty well balanced article from BBC News (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6045112.stm), which really surprised me.

The article has quotes from the report, the authors, detractors, and supporters.  Each with reasons on why they do or do not support the study.

The secondary point I take that you concede that you have no independent evidence to support your theory.

Calling into question my reality is very close to a personal attack, please do not let us go there.  "My world" is indeed far different than what most here will ever experience and you should be quite thankful for that.   However, it is my experience within reality that makes it so not some notion that I live out of phase with everything else.  I am just an individual who prefers to do her own thinking and lives during interesting times.

LIT

Thank you LIT  :)

That was a good link to solid information, although highly debated. It is is a well done, highly balanced article from an excellent source. I generally tend to trust the BBC much more than the API or other American news sources because they tend to be isolated from the American political process.

Indeed, it was very thought provoking and lends some potential credence to one of Brianna's belief sets.

I agree with you that questioning other people's realities might potentially represent a personal attack. Personally, I resented being catagorized as an arrogant, Iraqi murdering, linguistically resistant person that breathlessly watched reality television, simply because I am an American citizen. Aside from my computers, I live in a simple manner, I don't own a television, I'm trying to learn other languages and I would never harm another person except in my own defence or the defence of those I love or that can not defend themselves.

Additionally, I do vote in EVERY election. I have never voted in such a way to directly support  the war in Iraq. I thought it was wrong from the beginning and that the excuses presented by the administration for the invasion were at best horrible exagerations. I also resent the accusation that, simply because I'm an American citizen, I am responsible for the war or for the death of Iraqi citizens.

As most of us here know, we each have a voice. Our votes represent that voice in the American political process. By the vary nature of the that process, we do make changes to how the United States conducts business with the rest of the world. As the voices of more and more Americans are heard there will be change. I believe the current political agenda will be replaced in the coming years.

One point I need to note. This is not in any way to be construed as my not supporting our service men and women stationed in Iraq or Afganistan. I love you all for the service you do to keep us all safe. It is my hope that you all be blessed, stay safe and return home to your loved ones soon.

*hugs*

Genevieve

I completely agree about the point about sources. I am a journalist. If you're not up to date on this story run a Nexis search for "600,000" "Iraq" and "Dead." Or maybe "Bush" "denies" "600,000" "Iraq" and "Dead."

Perhaps I am misunderstanding your tone. But It just seems probable to me that you have an interest in cheerleading/justifying this war. And I have no interest in going there with right wingers - it just gets me beyond upset.

Respectfully, 
Bri

I know, I know.  I said that I would not reply again but this should be here and public.

There is absolutely no tone to my posts save the first line which was meant to be humorous.  I do research and I do a lot of it.  Every week I go through dozens of research articles and have the background to grasp what is in front of me.  Some of these are on the Internet, others are not.  When I debate I tend to stay with facts and not emotions.  I am not a fan of Bush but I will not let that get in the way of research.  My research and methods have no political motivations although those with political aspirations or seek to justify items within their political view may indeed use it for that purpose.

Please also remember that not everything on the Internet is necessarily true.  For every search item I could find dozens, if not hundreds, of so called articles that are nothing but giant opinion pieces and I absolutely detest when journalists and others in the media use what should be a non-biased podium to force their politics down my throat.  It is true whether those politics are right wing, left wing, and/or everything in between.

I do this in the real as well.  When I did my presentation on those who are part of the Transgender spectrum, I could have ranted and raved about those who have tried to kill me, those who denied me medical treatment, docs who abused their power to humiliate me, etc, etc.  Instead I stuck with the research and only put in a limited amount about my own experiences and made sure that I stressed the fact that all transitions are different, even if there may be similarities.

Genevieve, you are welcome.  I believe that this piece is so well balanced due to the fact that the BBC has been so poor in balance in the past that they finally admitted it was a problem earlier this year and have been taking steps to remedy the situation.  I hope this is an ongoing trend.

Have fun kids, LIT is now out of this house.  ;)  PM me with any questions but realise I reserve the right to not answer anything I deem to be too personal.

LIT

Did some part of this meticulous research ever mention war casualties?

Bri

Hi All,

It's very obvious that LIT did do research. LIT provided a wonderful link that even backs some of your vague assertions.

Even that one link is more than anyone else has provided.

As far as the right-winger comment you made, if you were trying to apply it to me you obviously haven't read what I've said. I will defend our soldiers in the field because they did not choose to be where they are and overwhelmingly are just normal and good people trying to do their duty to their country. I will defend our political process, even if I don't always agree with it's conclusions, because I believe in it.

I do not support the current administration or any of it's agenda regarding Iraq. But, do to the power of the vote, that will all change. This is America, that's how we do things. If you don't like it, go elsewhere.

It's gotten to the point where you just seem to be trying to attack others rather than provide any adequate justification for your positions, regardless of what they are. You still haven't even defended your position on the Spanish language here in the USA.

I too am done with this thread.

Genevieve

Bri,
I do not disagree with you one bit blood on our hands is an understatment our country was literally born of blood defecting from English rule.. But I'll be honest politics is not my strong suite so my opinion is just a small one and should not matter that much to anyone, you are obviously swavvy and wordly in your thinking and knowledge and i would not want you to think i am all that wordly.  I have too much military in me to think in a full circle too, so that's a disadvantage in a conversation.  You learn to accept, deal with whatever the terminology would be in i guess any country or land.  I did not especially like or even support some of our commander in chiefs (that would be the president) whole political thinking but while in the service i had to respect the position, chain of command, and orders sent through.  As a civilian now i'm less interested really, but I am definately one of the inhibited thinkers that believes we should close up shop on the world leader business and literally fend for ourselves and take care of our own.  I see homeless people driving into the city on the way to work living under bridges and in boxes, begging for food on the sidewalk.   
what is wrong with that picture?  Yet somehow the us finds these ways of funding humanitarian aid to other countries and stuff?
I am afraid i am such a small grain of sand in all this that all of the talking and discussions we have will not change much in the powers that be!  But i enjoy the dialogue and peoples views.
Ciao~
R

Random factoids I have come across.
Spanish, latino people  (sorry, am not sure the correct term :(   ) are now the biggest minority in the USA.
After the US had won its independance from Great Britian, there was an argument over what should be the US national language British or German,  apparently it was a close decision.
Not everyone in Iraq was against the US "invasion", Kurds were overjoyed I believe - and the Shi,ites in the south were happy but for different reasons.
Wasen't that wood mulching machine that Saddam's son used to process his "enemies" amazing. 
Many/most deaths in Iraq are caused not by Americans but by different Iraqi factions.

This is not  a fact but merely my opinion, if I decided to move to another country, I would at least make some effort to understand its language and culture.  Refusal to indicates arrogance or stupidity.

How come this thread moved from a simple observation about language to race and US foreign policy?

It seems it would be a good idea to lock this thread at this point.  Moderators?

Melissa