Susan's Place Transgender Resources

Discussions about 'gender' should also consider the person's viewpoint on just what gender is.  There are deep concepts we as individuals/groups hold that are not necessarily held by other individuals/groups.

Case in point -- some of the more 'primitive' cultures see 'male' and 'female' as being the most common types, but also see less common types, such as the Native American concept of a 'two-spirit' person, or the Hindu acknowledgment of the class (caste?) of people called Hijra in India, Pakistan and Bangladesh -- something our 'advanced' western culture/society seems intent on wishing away.

So, what's YOUR take on gender?  And what were you taught to believe (and perhaps strongly believed) while you were in denial?

I eagerly await hearing your take on all this;

Karen

Karen,

   'how many do you want there to be'?

at minimum, one gender for each living being.

   

I came from a binary background.  M & F, nothing in between.  That told me I'd better keep my feelings to myself. 

Honestly, I see us all as human beings trying to find happiness in a society we created but that makes finding happiness even more difficult.  What were we thinking?

Gender is just something society created in an attempt to make things easier for the average person.  If you don't fit the stereotype, tough luck!  If you hammer hard enough you'll make that square peg fit in the round hole.  I don't see me hitting myself on the head with a hammer anymore.  Tough luck for them!

Julie

I have just had a huge discussion on this last night - since there are no distinct genders (we live in a world where there is a sliding scale between the opisite end of the gender specticm) it is a hard question to answer as there are many places along the gender spectrim.


Alice

There are two.  Male and Female.  The "sliding scale" is one of our own invention.  But the original definition has two. 

Cindi

I voted two and say it only due to the genetical developement of the brain before the body starts developing.  If you are genetically predispositioned to be female then regardless of your body you are female (like ME! :-*)
If you are genetically predispositioned as male then regardless of your body you are male....
If there is such a thing as two genetic predispositions inside yourself then how in the world would your body develope wrong or right? 
also is inter-sexed is the case body wise that does not mean you are intersexed by genetic predisposition right?
I'm confusng myself now? argghhhhh
Ricki

My choice is How many do you want there to be? I know for sure there's more than two because I'm not either of the two culturally enforced genders (at least Western culture). And I wouldn't want to force everyone else that's left to being the third. That'd be a mighty crowded gender  ;D

Woody Guthrie, when asked to fill out his religion on a form, answered "all". They said he couldn't do that, so he answered "None".

zythyra

Yep there only two genders...

Me and everyone else :P

OK, OK, males and females :)

Steph

I am constantly fascinated by the labels we will choose to identify ourselves with and then how we will use them to form teams and divide ourselves. We see this constantly in politics and religion. And certainly this is pervasive in the transgendered community when it comes to the label of gender identification.

My fascination comes in part by the often arbitrary nature of our labels and identifications. People are compelled to define everything around them, and perhaps in a desperate struggle to keep it simple stupid, we like to use the broadest labels we can.

Admittedly I can see logically that primitive humans would define a concept such as gender identification as nothing more than another way to say birth-sex. Thus it would be logical to say that there are two genders. However, it seems unlikely that humans that primitive would be capable of making such social distinctions.

So when we take a deeper look at social interaction and personal identification within a culture, it becames plainly obvious that real life is far more complex than black/white, good/evil, male/female. And if we are identifying gender as a mental-emotional identifier and not as a sex identifier, then it seems absurd to suggest that there are only two genders. Maybe two extreme polar opposites, but not much exists in the extremes.

However, if we are sticking by the dictionary definition, as it relates to human sex, then there indeed only two.

But somehow I thought there was a revolution of spirit happening here, at Susan's, in the transgendered community at large. I was under the impression we were breaking down the walls of cultural stereotyping, bias, and bigotry.

And as such I voted for "How many do you want there to be!"

Karen's examples of how other cultures, outside of western culture have incorporated this idea into their way of life demonstrates that this is not a new concept. RebeccaFog makes a beautiful metaphor in that each human is unique in all ways, not just regarding gender identification. I obviously agree with Julie-Marie's statment that gender, like many labels, exist to make everyday life easier to comprehend, but as I already indicated, that rarely shows the whole picture. As some mentioned, by a prescriptive definition of gender, there are only two, but that definition indicates sex, and to keep things simple would likely indicate birth-sex, which really makes it difficult for transexuals to make claim to being another gender beyond their birth-sex. Yes, the "sliding scale" might be our invention, but I think when you really get down to it, most things exist on a spectrum. There are birds, and there are bluejays, robins, cardinals, hawks, and tweeties. I may be male, but what kind of male am I? Maybe you were born a seagull but you know in your heart you are an eagle.

We are using a word that has various definitions to slide things around to make ourselves (the transgendered et al) feel better about our personal situations. In the context of this recurring conversation, I must point out that gender is described alternatively as being, "The condition of being male or female, sex," and ,"Sexual identity especially as it relates to society or culture." And not necessarily in the same order of importance/relevance, depending on which source you choose to consult.

As such, this recurring discussion seems to serve little purpose beyond divisiveness, unless it is made very clear what we are talking about. For me I assume we are discussing gender as it relates to sexual identity, beings that every participant here did not start out with the gender assignment they relate to. Yes, some of you will eventually match up both definitions, but this is not the case for every transgendered person, either by choice or circumstances beyond their control.

Therefore I suggest that for the transgendered person, of any flavor, to assert one definition over the other, does little for the community, and at worst negates the real mental-emotional-spiritual issues we are all here dealing with.

---

Oh and hello Steph. Long time no chat, I'm sorry I've been away so long. :)

I voted for One gender. Meaning there is just your own gender that you should worry about. And that should be a mixture of whatever you want.

Quote from: madison on November 05, 2006, 04:10:17 AM
<snip>...

Yes, the "sliding scale" might be our invention, but I think when you really get down to it, most things exist on a spectrum. There are birds, and there are bluejays, robins, cardinals, hawks, and tweeties. I may be male, but what kind of male am I? Maybe you were born a seagull but you know in your heart you are an eagle.

...<snip>

Ah but madison I don't think your anaolgy quite fits as yes you may have been born a seagull and in your heart you wanted to be an eagle, but would you have wanted to be a female eagle or a male eagle? :)

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Oh and hello Madison. Long time no chat, I'm sorry you've been away so long as well - welcome back. :)

Steph

Quote from: zythyra on November 04, 2006, 09:12:46 PM
Woody Guthrie, when asked to fill out his religion on a form, answered "all". They said he couldn't do that, so he answered "None".

zythyra

Hi Zythyra,

   Who is this "Woody Guthrie". Do you know his location?
   I want to turn him over to the Department of Religious Security in lovable Washington D.C. along with everyone here who said there are more than 2 genders (myself included).


Signed,

Evil Rebecca,
God Rat for the DRS.

;) :angel: ^-^

I believe in only 2 genders, however, I do believe in different degrees and combinations or either.

Melissa

gen·der (jĕn'dər)
n.
Grammar.
a) A grammatical category used in the classification of nouns, pronouns, adjectives, and, in some languages, verbs that may be arbitrary or based on characteristics such as sex or animacy and that determines agreement with or selection of modifiers, referents, or grammatical forms.
b) One category of such a set.
c) The classification of a word or grammatical form in such a category.
 d) The distinguishing form or forms used.

2. Sexual identity, especially in relation to society or culture.
3.
a) The condition of being female or male; sex.
b) Females or males considered as a group: expressions used by one gender

Physical appearance: There are those born with both male and female sexual characteristics.  How do we classify them? 

Chromosomes: There are those born XXY or XXXY or some other deviation of XX or XY.  How do we classify them? 

And then there are those with AIS who look like genetic women but are XY.  How do we classify them?

This tells me there are more than two genders.  How many more?  Who cares.

Until mainstream society accepts gender identity as the indicator, we will have more than two genders.

Julie

Sex - Two (Excluding Biological / Genetic Defects (ie. Intersex Conditions))  I suppose a better way to state that is nature strives for two.
Gender - Infinite

QuoteWho is this "Woody Guthrie". Do you know his location?
   I want to turn him over to the Department of Religious Security in lovable Washington D.C. along with everyone here who said there are more than 2 genders (myself included).

Hi Rebecca,

Woody Guthrie was a folksinger/songwriter who died in the early 1960s, he wrote This Land is Your Land, among others. I believe that at the time he filled out all or none on the form, he was working for the WPA in Washington DC.

zythyra

Hi Zythyra,

   I was being tongue in cheek. All followers of Zimmerman know who Woody was.
   I was trying to take a jab at government agencies. Thank you for the information, though. And now, someone will ask who is this "zimmerman"?



Rebecca

This idea is such a cop out, in my opinion. So many transsexuals want to delude themselves into thinking passing happens seridipidously. They think they can act like men and be accepted as women. This idea seems like a dangerous delusional fantasy to me.

Certianly, there are degrees of gender. But the idea of magically creating more that three genders (man, female, androgynous) is just mind fattening candy for the fantasy multiplex.

Bri

Brianna I would love to hear more of what you are alluding to here. I think you may have some important points, but I'm not sure they were completely elucidated here. Though you have definitely inspired a new topic :) .

For me, these questions of gender are so important and sometimes frustrating, because it is the one word that so much of our identity hinges upon. It is the word that makes the forum necessary. It is the word that has troubled and elated most of us here. And sadly it is the word that we cannot even define, much less understand in any broader context.

On a side note, I had the pleasure of seeing Arlo Guthrie perform Alice's Restaraunt last year. And all of this talk about "All" and "None" got me thinkin' about playin' with the pencils and havin' a real good time there on the group W bench.
Posted on: 2006.11.06, 02:33:32

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After having just read a post by LadySerena in Transgender Talk>News, regarding the state of New York making gender a personal choice on birth certificates, I have reconsidered my poll vote, and would like to choose "THREE."

After reading that news post, I got thinking about how cool that was that transexuals were on the verge of being able to better label and present themselves to the world. And then I got thinking about all this gobbeldy-goop about the gender spectrum, and how as long as I am unwilling to commit to some kind of easy label, it is going to be that much harder to know myself, much less for the rest of the world to have a chance of understanding. In that other news post I made a joke about how the next step is for them to add androgyne to the list. But after pondering it a little more, I don't think that is necessarily such a far fetched idea. It's not necessarily something I am hoping for happening in my life time but as advances in biology and psychology possibly legitimize an androgynous state of being, it may someday make it totally normal for people to identify as a third legitamate gender. The full label for legal purposes would include your actual sex e.g. male androgyne or female androgyne, but would make it possible to understand the "type" of person they were interacting with on every level.

Just thoughts to add to the mix.

I chose 3 genders.
These are male, female, and androgyne. There are people born intersexed, surely there are also people born intergendered.

Darnit. Nero you're just making it more complex. I had figured it all out, everything made so much sense, and then you remind us of the intersexed. So now I need to choose "4". Where will the insanity end?  :)

I've got it, maybe gender is like race and nationality, there a lot of humans, but many races and nationalities. Okay, the world makes sense to me again (and as long is does for a few minutes day I'm fine  :) ).

Intersexed is a physical state, not a gender. Intersexed can choose / or forced to be male , female, live androgynous, or nuetrois just like everyone else. They just start with a different biology. They just face different gender challenges from birth.

Tell me about it. :)

Bri

Quote from: Brianna on November 06, 2006, 04:13:59 PM
This idea is such a cop out, in my opinion. So many transsexuals want to delude themselves into thinking passing happens seridipidously. They think they can act like men and be accepted as women. This idea seems like a dangerous delusional fantasy to me.

Certianly, there are degrees of gender. But the idea of magically creating more that three genders (man, female, androgynous) is just mind fattening candy for the fantasy multiplex.

Bri

If I may add a little spice to the pot Bri...  :)

How about this... I don't think that it's transsexuals who are deluding themselves as a true transsexual would not consider that there would be more than two genders, for it would be impractical, even ludicrous that a TS would transition to something other that MtF or FtM.  For example I do not consider that a person who is male and believed that they were androgynous would be considered transsexual, what are they transitioning to.  This is why I feel that TS doesn't belong under the Transgender Umbrella, but that is another topic that is way too divisive to discuss I'm afraid.

Spicy enough ;)

Steph

Quote from: Steph on November 07, 2006, 07:21:38 PM
If I may add a little spice to the pot Bri...  :)

How about this... I don't think that it's transsexuals who are deluding themselves as a true transsexual would not consider that there would be more than two genders, for it would be impractical, even ludicrous that a TS would transition to something other that MtF or FtM.  For example I do not consider that a person who is male and believed that they were androgynous would be considered transsexual, what are they transitioning to.  This is why I feel that TS doesn't belong under the Transgender Umbrella, but that is another topic that is way too divisive to discuss I'm afraid.

Spicy enough ;)

Steph

I strongly agree with everything in this post, steph. Especially that transgender and transsexual don't belong in the same classification. I, personally, do not liken my own journey with that of the transvestites, and I don't wish to be corelated with them by society.

I think you are correct that no one WILLINGFULLY classifies themself into the category you describe. But, if you will so indulge me, could I ask you to participate in a thought experiement with me?

Let us take a hypothetical transsexual, HyTran. They are a 50 year old who says they are a  M2F. For purposes of this thought experiment...

HyTran doesn't think voice is important to train and is always read.
HyTran keeps up very traditionally male intrests such as Star Trek, construction, and war movies
HyTran doesn't dress in a way that easily communicates gender
HyTran doesn't think finishing electro is important.

HyTran does this under the rationale "There are all kinds of women. Women that have low voices, like Star Trek, don't wear feamle clothes, and have facial hair." HyTran does this under the rationale "there are hundreds of genders."

Is this beleive that there are multiple genders healthy for HyTran? Is it recuscant? Is it a textbook delusional complex?

Would it be healthier for HyTran to understand that most of society operates in a bianary gender hegenomy, and that presenting themself as a plausable member of one sex of the other is healthier?

Bri, thoughtfully

I thoughtfully volunteer for the thought experiment:

If I understand, you believe HyTran, as a proclaimed transexual (post-op?), is doing herself, and potentially, transexuals everywhere a disservice by not conforming to prescribed notions of gender based on her actions.

Putting aside for one moment issues of gender identification at all, if I understand correctly the entire purpose in transitioning, is to bring in line a persons body to their perception of themselves as a man or a woman. I would suggest that HyTran is doing that. HyTran is matching the body to the belief that she is, was, and will always be a woman. Therefore, if HyTran has completed the transition to her satisfaction, who are we to come along and question her committment or notions of what it means to be a woman?

There are woman who like Star Trek, sound and talk like a man, dress in a careless ungroomed fashion, don't take care for their bodies in prescribed notions of beauty, who don't shave their legs, who are unattractive, who...

Now, I can't argue that HyTran might find more broad social acceptance if she took extra steps to ensure she "passed" to the best of her ability. But what exactly is HyTran recusant to? Where is the book of life that dicates how things should and shouldn't be? What standard of expectations are we measuring HyTran by? Yours? Mine? The fashion magazines? What the bigoted neighbor thinks? What Christians think?

If HyTran is happy, lives in an environment lacking in excessive hate-crimes, has friends, support groups, recreation, work, and laughs a few times a day, whose right is it to even question it? Maybe the bigot, religious, and uneducated feel obligated, but I hardly think it is the place of the apparently fragmented transgendered community to be handing out social dictums on how any individual should be living their life. A happy HyTran in this case meets and exceeds her personal relationship with society, and more importantly with self and personal relationships.

For all intents and purposes, HyTran is now a woman, her kind of woman, the kind of woman she wants to be. The transition is complete, and as Steph suggests, she is no longer transexual, she is a woman.

On the other hand if HyTran is unhappy, constantly depressed and frustrated by a lack of joy, lack of friendship, and the painful object of reprobation because HyTran does not present effectively to any community, eschews chiding or advice from friends and community, and is otherwise just not trying to be participate at all within society, then HyTran has problems that extend much farther than whether or not the concept of multiple genders is acceptable. Even if HyTran created a worldview hinging on the validity of a gender spectrum, if HyTran is unwilling to acknowledge her role in society, and make appropriate changes at appropriate times, then HyTran will experience nothing but pain. And yet, I don't think the idea of multiple genders could possibly be blamed for the the end result of HyTran. Her worldview and powers for decision making would have been well formed long before the concept of gender was even an understandable topic.

In the scenario where HyTran is unhappy, maybe it is textbook delusion; at the very least it obviously isn't healthy. Nonetheless concepts of gender, hegemonic or rarified, are doubtful at the root of the problem; an excuse of some kind for some other shortcoming or deficiency in HyTran's mental state maybe, but not a cause.

---

Regarding Brianna's comment...

Quote
...transgender and transsexual don't belong in the same classification. I, personally, do not liken my own journey with that of the transvestites, and I don't wish to be corelated with them by society.

Strangely, or perhaps rationally enough, as an androgyne (until the term changes again) I do not liken my journey to that of a transvestite either. However, based on my understanding of gender, utilizing dictionary definitions, androgynes, transexuals, and transvestites are addressing gender issues that transcend or cross traditional views of birth-sex and cultural gender expectations. Based on this rationale, I can even stand by Steph's assertions that a transitioned transexual is no longer transexual, but I'm not sure how that escapes the idea of having been born transgendered, or how being transexual, especially pre-op is not a transgendered issue (again using only dictionary definitions).

Honestly I am not trying to argue or open a painful dialogue. On the contrary, by way of alleviating such frustration, I would appreciate some further explanation and basis for some of the comments that are being made in this post by a segment of the population, if not of a transgendered community, at least the community here at Susan's. Comments that some here, myself included, could perceive as incendiary instead of enlightening; I do not doubt some motive of good intention behind the comments or suggest them to be intentionally dissentious.

While the destinations and paths of the journey are without question different, by my understandings of transgendered issues, which admittedly I have clarified most by way of participation here, the impetus for that journey begins in a similar place. That place is some moment, usually very early in life, when you sense something just isn't right, isn't as people keep indicating it should be; and a long journey begins of understanding what it is, what it means, and what your options are.

For the transexual that same journey has a destination of acceptance and expression through physical transition.
For the androgyne it has a destination of acceptance and expression through naturalization.
For the cross dresser it has a destination of acceptance and expression through respite.

But each of them had that, oh too similar, frightening and/or freeing moment of realization that started them on that journey. We all make different choices for different reasons, and yet I have yet to see any reason to doubt that these people have more in common than not. I don't understand the ultimate needs of the transexual. I don't understand the ultimate needs of the cross dresser. Neither make sense for my circumstances, for how I was raised, for how I learned of my situation and potential options, for the desperate hoops I've forced my brain to leap, to find an answer that did make sense to me at the time I was capable and willing to make such decisions. And in the end I don't need to understand, but I can sympathize, try to understand, but I can't regret what are conscious decisions we all face.

If the subhead on this site means anything, and we who walk these halls are indeed standing at a crossroads of gender balanced on the edge of a sharp knife, then gender is a word every one here should be extremely famililar with; not for how it makes us different, but for how it brings us together.

   I agree with Madison's post. many people who are genetic born fully male or fully female have odd traits or behaviours or personalities that set them apart, but they are still human beings and maybe thier personalities don't allow them to adapt to preconceieved or accepted notions of how they groom or dress themselves.
   I don't think someone loses the transsexual category if they follow the baselines but don't fully meet the cultural expectations. It's a hard life to begin with. Why make it harder for someone?


Rebecca

Wow Madison!

That was a fantastic post!

It was so well spoken and clear. Thank you.

I agree with Julie, Rebecca and Madison.

With regard to each of our journies, I do not believe any of us has a right to judge or classify any other. That almost seems hypocritical. Each journey is totally determined by the individual and that person's needs. As long as they do no harm and end in a place where they want to be, their journey has served it's purpose. Who are we to question another's journey?

In my opinion, the best we can and should do is support those in need, learn from our own mistakes, help others learn from mistakes made, grow and strive for our own happiness and fulfilment.

*hugs*

Genevieve

Thank you Genevieve and Rebecca.

And I agree completely with Genevieve's statement:

Quote
In my opinion, the best we can and should do is support those in need, learn from our own mistakes, help others learn from mistakes made, grow and strive for our own happiness and fulfilment.

But I truly wish to clarify that I am not seeking some uniformity of belief, and that we should agree on every little thing. I only seek to better understand how and why other viewpoints might differ from my own, and further assess whether or not those viewpoints might be more beneficial in my own life. In the meantime of course, I have developed my own viewpoints that I believe carry a certain amount of validity, and might be of value for others to consider.

And I would also like to add some a few more thoughts that arose from another post in Androgyne talk  (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,7169.0.html)that might be of use here as well.

Quote
It was stated once, that androgynes are not transtioning, but I offer that my very existence is proof of a type of transition. I am attempting to transition to a recognizable representation of how I feel. It is not physical, but there is a definite mental transition happening to make space for an androgynous concept that has been entirely left out of my culture, but has existed elsewhere. It makes sense to me to as you say, "gender-splice." But only because my culture has left me no alternative.

...

Considering the idea of a third gender is something that has not been adequately explored. And I offer another thought experiment for illustration. The journey of a transexual is that from birth-sex to the opposite sex, in an effort to match the body with the spirit. Given that there is, beyond question, a third SEX, the intersexed aka the hermaphrodite, is it not possible or even necessary for some of us to take that journey from our birth-sex to intersexed?

(Note: I'm only just now considering this for the first time. And while you could think me being flippant or exaggerating to make a point, it really makes me wonder.)

So perhaps their really is a transition to be made for the androgyne. And androgyne being little more than a descriptor of that inbetween state until such time as the physical matches the spirit. Just something to consider.

And from that same post, a few thoughts that might better express my intentions here...

Quote
On one last note, I would like to make it known that I do not feel as though I have the answers, that it all makes sense, and that I have the way to salvation, far from it. And moreover, I do not feel as though any of you do either. That is the point of these dialogs, to live and grow, and experience truth for the beautiful fluid thing that it is. Humans use words and symbols to communicate and do more than simply survive. Human vagaries of what life is, what life means, and how we should do it will likely always be changing, and we will never truly know all. But what we can do in the meantime, is have a hell of a lot of fun pondering it, and trying to make this brief stint as comfortable and pleasant as possible.

These discussions are a chance for us to learn how and why people make different decisions from us, and whether those other decisions had outcomes that we might find more favorable in our own lives. Thank you all for sharing and growing with me.

Madison, you hit on a lot of excellent points, many of which point to one simple but seemingly elusive state, happiness.  If you find what makes you happy and it doesn't cause anyone physical harm or specific emotional harm, then we should all be happy another human being has found happiness.  And in doing so will no longer burden society.  We should rejoice rather than guilt them into being what makes us happy.

Just a side note: specific emotional harm is a term I used for intentionally doing personal damage to another.  Not to be confused with people who are blown away because someone they have known all their life now wants to life their life in the opposite gender.

I will only add that being a non-transitioning m-to-female
9iok asdbh(sorry my puppy id that jumping onto my keyboard-how cute...*__*)
Does not mean i am accepting anything society has to dish out or assertain as their normality or my "role"  I chose non-transitioning because i realized that due to financial, social, family, and physical issues (FOR ME) my transition would not be anything near the completeness i would want or deserve and without knowing fear the worst and think it would not end in a good result? One i could not live with????  noe that also present s the day to day challenges of living with who i am and am not....
Now dealing with it however does not mean that pyhsiologically i am not in a female developement or trying to develope even though my physical self reamins a guy?  its as much as a hard path as developing as as much as a mystery and  in some ways has had it ups and downs and rewards as developed ts individuals....
Definately a work in progress I add only that to this post!
Ricki

QuoteWould it be healthier for HyTran to understand that most of society operates in a bianary gender hegenomy, and that presenting themself as a plausable member of one sex of the other is healthier?

Although most society accepts and enforces the binary gender system, not every person fits neatly into an either/or reality. Speaking from my own personal experience, after doing a year long RLT, I felt that although I had never fit into the box labeled M, I didn't exactly fit into the box labeled F either, even though I felt happier there. It just wasn't that simple. I'd probably have an easier life if I could just blend in and be one or another, but that truly doesn't work for me. Believe me, I've given considerable thought as to whether thinking that I'm a third (or other) gender could be a form of denial, but I don't think so. I can't speak for the hypothetical HyTran, but for me, there's way more than two genders.

zythyra

I was raised that there are only two options - male or female.  After 48 years, this is my opinion.

Three genetic sexes - male (XY), female(XX), and hermaphroditic (XXY or XYY).

Three physiological sexes - male, female, and intersexed.

Three genders (self perceptions) - man, woman, androgenous.

Chaunte

At the risk of jumping into a discussion that I haven't followed (I just joined), I see gender as a contiuum, not as discrete packages.  I also think we tend to slide along that contiuum pretty freely depending on mood, circumstance, and so on.  Just my 2 cents worth. 

Julieanne

Society does not exist to tell us who or how to be.  It is a product of who we are.  It is not an abstract entity divorced from the individual identities of its' members.  The true anti-social is he/she/ze who chooses to define and divide people either by what they deem to be conformist or recusant behavior.

Much the same argument could be applied to the notion of 'gender'.

Quote from: Brianna on November 07, 2006, 10:35:53 PM
Let us take a hypothetical transsexual, HyTran. They are a 50 year old who says they are a  M2F. For purposes of this thought experiment...

HyTran doesn't think voice is important to train and is always read.
HyTran keeps up very traditionally male intrests such as Star Trek, construction, and war movies
HyTran doesn't dress in a way that easily communicates gender
HyTran doesn't think finishing electro is important.

HyTran does this under the rationale "There are all kinds of women. Women that have low voices, like Star Trek, don't wear feamle clothes, and have facial hair." HyTran does this under the rationale "there are hundreds of genders."

Is this beleive that there are multiple genders healthy for HyTran? Is it recuscant? Is it a textbook delusional complex?

While I agree with you, I don't think HyTran's logic is necessarily flawed either in a much as women do all of those things, but not usually together all at the same time.  A beer drinking, cigar smoking woman doesn't usually attract attention, unless she's got a five o'clock shadow and is yelling at the football game on TV with her feet propped up on the coffee table.

There should be no sense of safety in a third gender.  Society functions in two genders.

Is HyTran fearful, just lazy or is she seeking to shock people with her presentation? 
Posted on: November 19, 2006, 08:42:09 AM

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Quote from: madison on November 08, 2006, 01:30:08 AM

While the destinations and paths of the journey are without question different, by my understandings of transgendered issues, which admittedly I have clarified most by way of participation here, the impetus for that journey begins in a similar place. That place is some moment, usually very early in life, when you sense something just isn't right, isn't as people keep indicating it should be; and a long journey begins of understanding what it is, what it means, and what your options are.

For the transexual that same journey has a destination of acceptance and expression through physical transition.
For the androgyne it has a destination of acceptance and expression through naturalization.
For the cross dresser it has a destination of acceptance and expression through respite.

I believe that's where the gender split exists...for the TS there is only one gender, and prior to transition its not the one they're presenting as.  Androgynes either reject or accept both genders and exist as their mood suits them.  CDs exist as a presentation of gender, expressing in the moment what their emotions are.

For me there is only Madison.  I may have some male interests, but I lack a sense of myself as a male.  My interests do not conflict with my sense of myself, who I see in the mirror does.  I'm not expressing my feminine side, I am my feminine side.  There's no interest in living as Madison and "not Madison" since there is no "not Madison" for me to live for.

I only have two gender options, me or not me.  That other people are comfortable beyond the gender black and white is their choice and while I disagree with them, its not up to me to judge them.

Quote from: Refugee on November 19, 2006, 09:54:55 AM

Quote from: Brianna on November 07, 2006, 10:35:53 PM
Let us take a hypothetical transsexual, HyTran. They are a 50 year old who says they are a  M2F. For purposes of this thought experiment...

HyTran doesn't think voice is important to train and is always read.
HyTran keeps up very traditionally male intrests such as Star Trek, construction, and war movies
HyTran doesn't dress in a way that easily communicates gender
HyTran doesn't think finishing electro is important.

HyTran does this under the rationale "There are all kinds of women. Women that have low voices, like Star Trek, don't wear feamle clothes, and have facial hair." HyTran does this under the rationale "there are hundreds of genders."

Is this beleive that there are multiple genders healthy for HyTran? Is it recuscant? Is it a textbook delusional complex?

While I agree with you, I don't think HyTran's logic is necessarily flawed either in a much as women do all of those things, but not usually together all at the same time.  A beer drinking, cigar smoking woman doesn't usually attract attention, unless she's got a five o'clock shadow and is yelling at the football game on TV with her feet propped up on the coffee table.

There should be no sense of safety in a third gender.  Society functions in two genders.

Is HyTran fearful, just lazy or is she seeking to shock people with her presentation?

I concur with you on this refugee! :eusa_clap:  Personally I wouldn't feel safe living in a "third gender".  I had my shares of horrible experiences in those days when estrogen was just beginning to cause its effects on me, and people did not know if I was male of female...I can't imagine myself living life that way, but I respect and admire those who try to live their lives outside the binary gender system.

Quote from: bananaslugSociety does not exist to tell us who or how to be

True to a point, but realistically speaking, we form part of this society whether we like it or not and as far as I am concerned, the society that I form part of functions in only two genders.....but of course I sometimes have dreams where I see myself living in a perfect, genderless world, but as soon as I open my eyes in the morning, I realize that they were just that, dreams.

tinkerbell :icon_chick: 

 I voted for two genders. However I believe it to be as much as you perceve your gender, more female than male or more male than female. Personally I perceive myself as more female than male always have and always will. Male parts with a female mind.



Owen

Love being female :angel:

   You can sweep all the variations into only 2 genders, but there are always nonconformists and exceptions to every rule. The exceptions deserve thier own space if they desire it. Some people are severely eccentric or they don't consider the "rules" when they consider their self image.
    I know elderly women who have facial hair and they don't go out of thier way to remove it or to keep the hair from growing back. They're obviously women, but the facial hair doesn't make them men. In my opinion, it doesn't even make them ugly. They just don't consider that they should waste thier time grooming such an inconsequential thing as some facial hair. Who decided that women should shave thier legs anyway? I like the shaved look, but I have no problem with women who go natural.
    If I can't control my male physicality, I'm going to have to find a way to be entirely myself internally and find some kind of compromise for my external appearance. Even if I magically aquired the body and fashion that I want, I would still consider myself 3rd gender. I'll never have the life experiences and the biological effects that would truly make me a woman.
   I know I am female and that I AM NOT A MAN, but I'll never be a woman. If I look like a male, but my identity is female, there is enough incongruity there to declare myself something else. I don't really know what, but it's not man or woman.

   I believe in many genders. I believe in variation. I believe that I cannot live happily in a world that doesn't accept variation.

   I AM NOT A MAN! I AM NOT A MAN! I AM NOT A MAN! I cannot pass as a woman. What am I?


As usual, I hope I didn't disturb anyone. Written in lovely confusion by:

Rebecca Fog

Quote from: madison on November 08, 2006, 01:30:08 AM
Regarding Brianna's comment...

Quote
...transgender and transsexual don't belong in the same classification. I, personally, do not liken my own journey with that of the transvestites, and I don't wish to be corelated with them by society.

Strangely, or perhaps rationally enough, as an androgyne (until the term changes again) I do not liken my journey to that of a transvestite either. However, based on my understanding of gender, utilizing dictionary definitions, androgynes, transexuals, and transvestites are addressing gender issues that transcend or cross traditional views of birth-sex and cultural gender expectations. Based on this rationale, I can even stand by Steph's assertions that a transitioned transexual is no longer transexual, but I'm not sure how that escapes the idea of having been born transgendered, or how being transexual, especially pre-op is not a transgendered issue (again using only dictionary definitions).

Well, I personally have no issues with my gender, my issues are with the sex of my body not matching what I believe it should.  The word transgender literally means "across genders" and since a transsexual's gender is not changing, it technically does not apply.  However the word transsexual would mean "across sexes" and since we are physically changing the sex of our body from one to the other, it is a perfectly appropriate word.

Melissa

Melissa said;

QuoteWell, I personally have no issues with my gender, my issues are with the sex of my body not matching what I believe it should.  The word transgender literally means "across genders" and since a transsexual's gender is not changing, it technically does not apply.  However the word transsexual would mean "across sexes" and since we are physically changing the sex of our body from one to the other, it is a perfectly appropriate word.

  Thank you, Melissa. That thought actually reigned in my sudden burst of dysphoria. I don't know if you could tell, but I was beginning to freak out a little.


Rebecca Fog

Quote from: Tinkerbell on November 19, 2006, 08:47:35 PMTrue to a point, but realistically speaking, we form part of this society whether we like it or not and as far as I am concerned, the society that I form part of functions in only two genders.....but of course I sometimes have dreams where I see myself living in a perfect, genderless world, but as soon as I open my eyes in the morning, I realize that they were just that, dreams.

tinkerbell :icon_chick: 

I function perfectly well in society. The difference being that I don't define myself in terms of gender.
It doesn't follow that holding alternate views of gender automatically excludes one from society; that one is somewhow living in a dream world.
I'm not 'outside of society' or a 'gender rebel' as some have implied; far from it.  People are perfectly entitled to their binary gender system if that's what they feel is necessary to define society. People also have the right to believe in any religion or vote Republican/Democrat.

As an androgyne I have no problems in recognising other peoples' gender beliefs but I don't necessarily have to subscribe to them in order to be a well-adjusted and useful member of society.

I voted for three: male, female, and "something else". "Something else" can probably be broken down into both, other, neither, and none. I'm hardly a philosopher but from a practical standpoint I think that groups like with kind.

Quote from: Tinkerbell on November 22, 2006, 02:37:49 AMHowever, I'd imagine that since gender is the basis for social and cultural categories, somehow you have to follow society's binary gender system (i.e, names, types of clothing, bathroom issues, behavior issues).

That's the real trick isn't it? Trying to fit into a society that currently has no place for us. To me the keyword is "currently". Faced with the reality that sex and gender are not the same, society has started to change to reflect that reality. And if faced with the reality that some of us do not fit neatly into the binary system, and if we choose to do something about it, I believe society can begin to change to reflect that reality. I'm not asking anybody to be different, I'm just asking them to allow for the fact that I'm different.

The problem is we fit into different sides of the binary system depending on the situation, and sometimes we just don't fit at all. My sex is male and I don't claim to be a woman, so I use the men's room. Sometimes my behavior fits on the male side, sometimes it fits on the female side, and sometimes it doesn't fit anywhere in the binary. The same with my clothes. So we have to handle each situation as it arises.

Then too, society seems to be creating more gender neutral pockets. Maybe that's where we will eventually fit in, by being a bridge between male and female. (Now where have I heard that before?)

QuotePeople also have the right to believe in any religion or vote Republican/Democrat.

I agree with this intellectually, but wow is it hard for me to emotionally accept. I mean, one party and religion wants to destroy people like me. They get elected on this concept and brainwash the masses with their hate of me and my gay cousins. It impossible for me to accept other people like me enabling the very people that want to destroy us.

Still. Part of being a woman is respecting opinions I don't agree with.... the hardest part.

bri

Brianna,
I can understand and respect your views and beliefs..
it's frustrating what a tangled web gets weaved around us as we live and breath.....
Peace and hugs...
Ricki

Twenty-three!

No, probably not.

Has to be at least four, though.  For example, I consider myself an androgyne, both male and female.  And as someone pointed out on here, that's like mixing blue and yellow: what you get is green, which is made from both blue and yellow, but by that very fact is neither blue nor yellow, but something else.

Then you could have someone who considers themself neither.

I think it goes beyond that, too.  Are "boy" and "man" different genders?  "Girl" and "woman"?  I think so...if they don't have different pronouns, they nonetheless have different expectations, different roles, and so forth -- everything that should define a difference in gender.  (In the interest of fair attribution, this isn't my idea.  I got it from one of Kate Bornstein's books.)

labels,labels and more labels. Why can't we just say we are all of one gender-human??!! Well, I tried. Too easy I guess!!lol :angel:

I do not know, I am a gril but some think Iam a man
love Kim

There are as many genders as colours. Each person is different with their own ideas. Should we not try to accept others as we would like to be accepted?

3 sliding scales
Male - Female
Null - Omni
single - multi

you may sit comfortably or move around on any of these

just two. male & female.

I chose How many do you want there to be.

Binary thinkers think in only male or female.  But really there are as many variations of gender as there are personalities and people.  There is no true set of what is male/female, other than stereotypes and few entirely fit them stereotypes.  Therefor gender is really fluid.

There are two genders; male, and female (unless you're talking about grammar, in which case there are three).

Anything else is just a variation within those two.

Quote from: Yvonne on September 13, 2008, 11:29:37 PM
There are two genders; male, and female (unless you're talking about grammar, in which case there are three).

Anything else is just a variation within those two.

totally agree. there's is only male and female and sometimes a mix of both.