Susan's Place Transgender Resources

Alright, so over on the MTF forum someone made a post (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,71117.0.html (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,71117.0.html)) asking for input about something someone at her work had said, related to "spotting" a TS by the length between finger and index ratio, and whether it's even or not.

Unfortunately, her friend at work has it mixed up, there is a known correlation between prenatal hormone exposure and your 2d:4d ratio, but it's that males tend to have a ratio of 0.96 or less, females a ratio of 1 or higher. A lot of females fall into the higher category, and thus would also have "uneven" fingers and be considered male by that definition.

Index ratio's have found to be correlated with a number of things, personality traits, autism, TS, homosexuality to an extent, maths ability, sporting ability. Studies in the past have shown MTF's tend to have ratios in the normal female range, adding fuel to the biological cause theory.

So anyway, since everyone over on that thread is answering with completely useless trivia, I thought I'd post a thread so we can get some only mostly useless trivia.  ;D

My question is this, are you an MTF or an FTM (if neither, sorry I don't have a poll option, but you're more than welcome to post in the thread), which is your longer finger, on your dominant hand (the dominant hand is said to be the better indicator), the ring finger or the index finger? If you really want to get crazy you can measure both with a ruler, and divide index length by ring length to get a numerical value. Males on average have 0.96 or below, females 1 or higher.

In real life I've observed that this indicator is pretty accurate between cismales and females. There's exceptions, but almost everyone I have seen fit the averages.

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fmedia3.washingtonpost.com%2Fwp-dyn%2Fcontent%2Fgraphic%2F2006%2F10%2F16%2FGR2006101601457.gif&hash=adf3142940ff339e6c0f0a851cfcb37f3c069640)

Above picture from the washington post.

Please by all means post and comment on the thread, thanks for playing.  ;D

I am right handed and my ratio is 1 or higher (longer index finger), according to the picture.  But they are close in size.  The index finger is slightly longer than the ring finger.

Mine falls under the 'I am an MTF and my ratio is 1 or higher (longer index finger)'
but during lower school when I was 12 I was a sports captain and I was on all of the interschool teams, including netball :P
But of course once puberty kicked in I lost all interest in team sports rraarrrr! :P

Kinda interesting that thus far all the FTM votes are all longer ring fingers.

Wait, if the ring finger is bigger then what does that mean?

Also, I've just noticed.

On my left hand the index is bigger then the ring finger...

And on the right the ring finger is bigger then the index! O.o

Quote from: Lullabye on January 21, 2010, 11:15:21 PM
Wait, if the ring finger is bigger then what does that mean?

Also, I've just noticed.

On my left hand the index is bigger then the ring finger...

And on the right the ring finger is bigger then the index! O.o

Your dominant hand should be more significant than your non dominant hand, and it's the one I'm interested in for the poll.

Also, you need to make sure you're not tilting your hands to the sides when you look, your hand should be flat and inline with your wrist in the most comfortable position possible.  ;D

Aww, no Androgyne option? (figures in a way)
Guess I'll sit this one out.  8)

Edit: or wait, just read the thread again...
Androgyne here, right hand; index finger is longer - left hand; ring finger is longer. Erm. Neat.

If I check it according to that picture, the index is definitely longer. But is that how it's supposed to be measured? I had assumed they'd defined the finger as starting at the knuckle, and the knuckles don't run parallel to the wrist (not even on that picture). I have, however, assumed wrongly on multiple occasions; so I won't feel too bad if I was measuring the wrong way.

Not that it matters, as even by that measure they're 1:1 at least.

I have never had anything close to 'athletic skill', except running...
One more piece of nearly irrelevant evidence, yay! ^_^

Quote from: Luna! on January 22, 2010, 07:23:38 PM
If I check it according to that picture, the index is definitely longer. But is that how it's supposed to be measured? I had assumed they'd defined the finger as starting at the knuckle, and the knuckles don't run parallel to the wrist (not even on that picture). I have, however, assumed wrongly on multiple occasions; so I won't feel too bad if I was measuring the wrong way.

Not that it matters, as even by that measure they're 1:1 at least.

I have never had anything close to 'athletic skill', except running...
One more piece of nearly irrelevant evidence, yay! ^_^

Usually they say to measure using the center of the bottom most crease of your finger to the tip.

I feel like a lesbian girl inside a male body, I'm right-handed, and my ratio is 1.01, my index finger being just a bit longer. My father's ratio is way less than 1 though, he has a much shorter index finger (and he's straight, but I suspect he might be transgender and not have realized it yet). Both my hands are of the same ratio, and I'm an only child. Interestingly, lesbians typically have a similar ratio as mine:)

While I haven't broke out a tape measure, mine are pretty much dead even on both hands, it doesnt matter though which hand, I am ambidextrous.

But even fingers, might explain why I am stuck and having a long hard personal journey.

my index finger is longer.  i feel "like a real woman" now.. tsk tsk tsk.

isn't there a thread here somewhere about the size of your toes too?  seriously. :laugh:

I got flustered by the math here, but I'm left-handed, and my ring finger is longer than my index by a factor of a little over 1. So is that more feminine (I hope, I hope, I hope) or is that one more item to put on the feminization surgery list?  ;) Actually, about 15 years ago I tried to do that, cutting off about a quarter of an inch off the left ring finger, and it's still longer than the right one! The stupid nail curves over the tip.  >:(

SusanKG

Longer ring finger :P

My ring finger is ever so slightly longer than my index finger, measuring gives me a 0.99

on my dominant hand (right) my index finger is longer but not by all that much maybe 1/16"-1/8" it is reversed on my left (non dominant) and a bit more pronounced.

I am not sure what that means, but I know I am terrible at math, maybe I can blame it on my fingers?

Measuring comes out with the exact same length giving me a 1.  Initially, just by looking, it appeared my index finger was slightly shorter but that was a result of it's placement and not it's length when measured.

Longer ring finger, but just barely.

Hi ,

on my left hand which is dominant , my index finger is quite smaller than the ring finger . On my right hand the index finger is still smaller or maybe the same . It depends on where do I start the measurement exactly .
Anyway , do you still Is any hope for me to be a MTF rather than a man with a transvestic fetish ?
Any other articles or stuff that explain other possibilities ?
I heard about this ratio only a few days ago and pretty much messed my entire life and beliefs .
Also I found some links to other related stuff like what is the dominant hand , etc. etc. and all made me feel that I would be classified  into the man 's category . 
I felt a girl inside for many years now , not that clear since childhood like other girls (but I thought I have some explanations about that ) , and now I am completely suicidal .
I went in Belgium today and I saw 2 cis girls with longer ring fingers , and I felt pretty good . Now I am back in France , and I saw many others with typical girl ratios and I am down again .

The science has a big influence on me , I feel that I can't argue with the universal laws and also alter my perception /opinion about other of my traits .
So I hate that I found out about this ratio , basically if I won't kill myself soon , I will still continue the transition , but it feels like I won't ever get the peace of mind that I really am a girl .

It is interesting here though , as the percent of MTF with smaller ratio is even bigger than the percent of MTF with digit ratio of 1 or above .

Mine are exactly the same ,,,lol

You all know this is debunked meaningless nonsense, right?  Scientifically it holds about as much water as phrenology or a sieve.

Forget this and move on.

I wish I could , but I' m very obsessive (i mean i have  detailed procedures and routines  for washing hands and i arrange things to the millimeter ) so it is difficult . After many years living with myself i understood some of my mechanisms , and i think something like a counter-argument could help . I hope that my ethnicity will help , at it seems the finger ratio depends on ethnicity (on some , females are common in having lower ratio), but i don't know exactly which one , or exactly what am i  ;D
Also from what i remember , my mom have the same type of hand , so i still hope .

I feel like if i would have a 'proof' like that , i wouldn't care about anything , including being clocked or something like that , as that is how the universe made me , it wasn't a choice , i would be proud and motivated to continue transitioning .Maybe a brain CT would clarify things but i am too scared to find the truth .

If you feel like you're female, you are.  This is by far the best gender test.  The other ones are best done post-mortem. (Sorry, dark humor is my specialty.)

I've accepted this about myself and have long since moved on.   It's best to live your life and not spend it worrying about such things every waking minute. 

If HRT is working for you, let it continue to do so.   You deserve this wonderful opportunity to enjoy your life.

My index finger is way longer. I'm FTM so I guess that puts me firmly in the minority. But I'm also queer and kinda femmey so I feel like that could impact things. '

I'm FTM and my index finger is way longer. Honestly I'm skeptical of a test can that can tell your gender by finger ratios.

It is not a gender test by itself , but the study say that (for example in my case) a lower index ratio would show a male brain , because that is how it is in the majority , and also they give some biological explanation , like a longer ring finger would 've been helpful in stabilizing and throwing a spear , so that would make a better 'man ' , so that is a male feature . And also that straight girls unconsciously like and choose a man with this kind of hands .Also , they are some personality and behavior traits associated with the index ratio  - brain gender , so it would appear that it is true after all , especially that a lot of my features that I thought to be feminine , are also present in men with low index ratio .

For me , it was the worst influence  the science ever had on me , as now it is all I can think about . I feel like I am a fetishistic man now , not a real girl . It gets me down whenever I see my hands , I hated them before because they are quite big for a girl , but now I hate them completely . This study really blocks my gender identity , as it makes me think that I am a man , and I just don't want to accept that because of some other reasons . I really can't tell what I 'feel' , because I was always influenced by the rational factors in perceiving my feelings , including related to gender identity .

One on the only hopes would be that this is in my 'ethnicity ' , so I should check my mom's hands , but I am afraid that it will confirm what the study say : just a  man .

I really consider suicide now , as I can't live as a man , I don't want and I don't fit in the standards  :( I am completely messed up

I wouldn't put too much stock in it honestly, index is longer on one hand and shorter on the other, what does that say about me? Nothing I would consider credible.

From what I have read if anything the ratio has something to do with T levels in the womb. That doesn't mean much since that is only an indicator of one variable in a very complex process that is growing a human being.

Quote from: Hikari on February 11, 2014, 07:41:26 AM
I wouldn't put too much stock in it honestly, index is longer on one hand and shorter on the other, what does that say about me? Nothing I would consider credible.

From what I have read if anything the ratio has something to do with T levels in the womb. That doesn't mean much since that is only an indicator of one variable in a very complex process that is growing a human being.

Yes , but what bothers me , is that the 'real ' human being is the what the brain indicates , not exactly what you want / feel . For example many transgenders changed their gender identity from boy/man to girl later in life , but the brain (I think ?) remains only in one way (masculinized or feminized ) , so that is what really messed my mind . If I feel like a girl now , but the brain is a male one , I guess that would make me just a man with a fetish 'to be' a girl . And I can't live with that. Anyway , lately , I've thought at that so much , that now I don't feel anything at all , I am just way to tired and messed up , my brain gets no clear signals . So I think I will just relax a while , in a week I may see a therapist , and after all that , if it really appears that I am a man , I may end this awful life .The good part is that is not that difficult , I have no one that would be sad about that , so I don't have to worry , not even to write a good bye letter . 

Seemed interesting to do regardless of whether or not there is any truth to it.

I'm mtf, right hand (dominant) had a ratio of 0.99 so close lol :P

left hand was 0.97.

only difference between the two was that my index finger on my left hand was 1mm shorter.


cool to learn something new about my body.

I am a FTM transsexual and the ratio on both of my hands is Low 2D:4D.

Quote from: Jill F on February 04, 2014, 05:04:18 PM
You all know this is debunked meaningless nonsense, right?  Scientifically it holds about as much water as phrenology or a sieve.

Forget this and move on.

Jill, sorry, but I have to disagree with you there. There's plenty of evidence showing that transsexuality isn't a purely psychological phenomenon, but is the result of an abnormal hormonal environment (higher than normal female levels of testosterone in the case of FTMs, lower than normal male in the case of MTFs), during the later stages of prenatal development. This is after all the development associated with your genitals and your physical sex has already completed but during the time the permanent structure of your brain is being built.

Basically, transsexuality appears to be a type of intersex condition, except one where it's primarily the brain that's been affected rather than the genitals.

Apparently, digit ratio does tend to correlate quite well with prenatal testosterone exposure, which would explain why the digit ratio of trans people tends to match that of the gender we identify as rather than our biological gender. A more definitive thing to look at, though, is body structure as a whole. I've posted on here a couple of times previously about the "eunuchoid habitus", which is a type of body structure seen in biological males that results from having below normal male testosterone during childhood and puberty, and is usually associated with intersex conditions (and which seems to occur more commonly in MTFs than in the biological male population as a whole). It consists of having:
* long, slender arms and legs
* legs that are significantly longer than the height of your upper body (the two should be about equal in men)
* an armspan 3cm or more greater than your height
* sparse or very fine body hair
* a female pubic hair pattern (like an upside down triangle and confined to the pubic region)
* youthful, feminine looking facial features
* an inability to build upper body muscle
* gynecomastica
other characteristics that can be associated with it are the female digit ratio, and a female carrying angle.

I've got this type of body structure. In my case, the low testosterone kept getting worse as I got older, and a few years ago reached the point where I developed most of the symptoms of acute hypogonadism. That seems to be a not uncommon occurrence among late transitioning "DES sons", I'm not sure whether it applies to MTF trans people as a whole.

I've seen it mentioned elsewhere that FTMs tend to have male-typical bodily proportions, and much higher than normal rates of PCOS and hyperandrogenism (overproduction of male hormones), so here again is clear evidence that there's a physical basis to transsexuality and a link to abnormal hormones.

Quote from: HughE on April 10, 2014, 05:38:39 PM
Jill, sorry, but I have to disagree with you there. There's plenty of evidence showing that transsexuality isn't a purely psychological phenomenon, but is the result of an abnormal hormonal environment (higher than normal female levels of testosterone in the case of FTMs, lower than normal male in the case of MTFs), during the later stages of prenatal development. This is after all the development associated with your genitals and your physical sex has already completed but during the time the permanent structure of your brain is being built.

Basically, transsexuality appears to be a type of intersex condition, except one where it's primarily the brain that's been affected rather than the genitals.

Apparently, digit ratio does tend to correlate quite well with prenatal testosterone exposure, which would explain why the digit ratio of trans people tends to match that of the gender we identify as rather than our biological gender. A more definitive thing to look at, though, is body structure as a whole. I've posted on here a couple of times previously about the "eunuchoid habitus", which is a type of body structure seen in biological males that results from having below normal male testosterone during childhood and puberty, and is usually associated with intersex conditions (and which seems to occur more commonly in MTFs than in the biological male population as a whole). It consists of having:
* long, slender arms and legs
* legs that are significantly longer than the height of your upper body (the two should be about equal in men)
* an armspan 3cm or more greater than your height
* sparse or very fine body hair
* a female pubic hair pattern (like an upside down triangle and confined to the pubic region)
* youthful, feminine looking facial features
* an inability to build upper body muscle
* gynecomastica
other characteristics that can be associated with it are the female digit ratio, and a female carrying angle.

I've got this type of body structure. In my case, the low testosterone kept getting worse as I got older, and a few years ago reached the point where I developed most of the symptoms of acute hypogonadism. That seems to be a not uncommon occurrence among late transitioning "DES sons", I'm not sure whether it applies to MTF trans people as a whole.

I've seen it mentioned elsewhere that FTMs tend to have male-typical bodily proportions, and much higher than normal rates of PCOS and hyperandrogenism (overproduction of male hormones), so here again is clear evidence that there's a physical basis to transsexuality and a link to abnormal hormones.

HughE is right, there is more than enough evidence to suggest that transsexuality/gender dysphoria is biological in it's basis.

http://frasertheisomer.tumblr.com/post/81982795257/bridgeverse-writing-script-for-how (http://frasertheisomer.tumblr.com/post/81982795257/bridgeverse-writing-script-for-how)
http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0083947 (http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0083947)
http://transgenderscience.tumblr.com/post/57635364713/transgender-brains-are-different (http://transgenderscience.tumblr.com/post/57635364713/transgender-brains-are-different)
http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn20032-transsexual-differences-caught-on-brain-scan.html#.U0dQIvldWSp (http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn20032-transsexual-differences-caught-on-brain-scan.html#.U0dQIvldWSp)
http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2008/10/26/1224955854977.html?feed=fairfaxdigitalxml (http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2008/10/26/1224955854977.html?feed=fairfaxdigitalxml)
http://transhealthmodule.com/GenderIdentity.html (http://transhealthmodule.com/GenderIdentity.html)
http://www.shb-info.org/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderfiles/etiology-definition.pdf (http://www.shb-info.org/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderfiles/etiology-definition.pdf)
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21334362 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21334362)
http://press.endocrine.org/doi/full/10.1210/jcem.85.5.6564 (http://press.endocrine.org/doi/full/10.1210/jcem.85.5.6564)
http://www.rightdiagnosis.com/t/transsexualism/symptoms.htm (http://www.rightdiagnosis.com/t/transsexualism/symptoms.htm)
http://www.merckmanuals.com/professional/psychiatric_disorders/sexuality_and_sexual_disorders/gender_identity_disorder_and_transsexualism.html (http://www.merckmanuals.com/professional/psychiatric_disorders/sexuality_and_sexual_disorders/gender_identity_disorder_and_transsexualism.html)
http://dbm.neuro.uni-jena.de/pdf-files/Luders-JBBS11.pdf (http://dbm.neuro.uni-jena.de/pdf-files/Luders-JBBS11.pdf)
http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0085914 (http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0085914)

Not all the pieces of the puzzle have been put together, but generally speaking, the evidence from multiple independent sources supports the theory of transsexuality as a biological phenomenon and I haven't seen evidence which would prove otherwise.

I find all the evidence supporting transexualism as an intersex condition compelling, and it fits in my case as I have very low testosterone,  female carrying angle and finger ratios, sparce facial and body hair, gender dysphoria and varicocele.

My mother had a long string of miscarriages prior to me, and this strongly suggests I am a DES baby as it was the practice in that era.

Symptoms of GD occured very young, during which time my family life was stable and secure- good role models on both sides.  No siblings to muddy the waters...  I still tried to cut off parts with scissors... which suggests it is not a psychological disorder in my case that triggered such drastic behavior.   I would have to conclude it is physical.

My index and ring fingers are pretty much the same on both hands and i had a history teacher say that scientific research said that people with longer index fingers were usually gay and of course like everyone in the class looked and then he said it was bs it didnt actually mean anything it was just to see how gullible most of the class was and no i didnt look because i already knew i was mtf and gay so... idk... but i wouldnt sweat it i know feminine guys that are wicked straight and not trans in any way...that i know of!lol! I think theres so many variances in people it doesn't really matter as long as what you do with your life makes you happy!

Quote from: HughE on April 10, 2014, 05:38:39 PM
Jill, sorry, but I have to disagree with you there. There's plenty of evidence showing that transsexuality isn't a purely psychological phenomenon, but is the result of an abnormal hormonal environment (higher than normal female levels of testosterone in the case of FTMs, lower than normal male in the case of MTFs), during the later stages of prenatal development. This is after all the development associated with your genitals and your physical sex has already completed but during the time the permanent structure of your brain is being built.

Basically, transsexuality appears to be a type of intersex condition, except one where it's primarily the brain that's been affected rather than the genitals.

Apparently, digit ratio does tend to correlate quite well with prenatal testosterone exposure, which would explain why the digit ratio of trans people tends to match that of the gender we identify as rather than our biological gender. A more definitive thing to look at, though, is body structure as a whole. I've posted on here a couple of times previously about the "eunuchoid habitus", which is a type of body structure seen in biological males that results from having below normal male testosterone during childhood and puberty, and is usually associated with intersex conditions (and which seems to occur more commonly in MTFs than in the biological male population as a whole). It consists of having:
* long, slender arms and legs
* legs that are significantly longer than the height of your upper body (the two should be about equal in men)
* an armspan 3cm or more greater than your height
* sparse or very fine body hair
* a female pubic hair pattern (like an upside down triangle and confined to the pubic region)
* youthful, feminine looking facial features
* an inability to build upper body muscle
* gynecomastica
other characteristics that can be associated with it are the female digit ratio, and a female carrying angle.

I've got this type of body structure. In my case, the low testosterone kept getting worse as I got older, and a few years ago reached the point where I developed most of the symptoms of acute hypogonadism. That seems to be a not uncommon occurrence among late transitioning "DES sons", I'm not sure whether it applies to MTF trans people as a whole.

I've seen it mentioned elsewhere that FTMs tend to have male-typical bodily proportions, and much higher than normal rates of PCOS and hyperandrogenism (overproduction of male hormones), so here again is clear evidence that there's a physical basis to transsexuality and a link to abnormal hormones.

I agree that it is not just psychological. I read a study the other day discussing formations in the brain that are different in cis males and cis females. (Different number of neurons in the region I believe) MTFs have the cis female quantity and FTMs have the cis male quantity. Note that quantity does not change in cis patients that undergo hormone reversal for other medical purposes so it is specifically linked with transgenderism or a coexisting condition.

The Wikipedia article on 'causes of transexualism' gives a good summary in the brain structure section

Well on both hands both fingers are very equal.

Personally I don't think it is the one specific identifier of gender but could show some evidence of prenatal exposure to certain hormones and the effects it has on the body. With that said and everything added up there may be some truth with all the other stuff. Mine are equal in length, but not only just the fingers but my hands in general are shaped and look more female than male especially wearing girly colored nail polish, thank god. Legs and feet too look way more female shaped than male. If I make a fist, even I have to laugh and one of the main resons I have always avoided fist fights in school. Compared to some guys that look like they have hams for fist, mine looks more like a chicken leg. :P

Ever since I first heard of this I have been obsessive with looking at people's hands and it seems that it can go either way. I don't think it alone is an indication of being transgender, I think that truly lies in a person's brain and Psyche more than anything else but definately a possible physical prenatal condition that may in fact have an effect on a person being predispositioned to be transgendered.

Brb, off with my ruler to harass everyone I know. :laugh:

Jk, actually I do put stock in signs like this, but agree with the caution that this in no way invalidates anyone's experiences. Lots of straight cisgirls with masculine ratios just happen to be athletic or don't even have any outward evidence of testosterone differences, and lots of straight cisguys with feminine ratios are just chill people or don't seem any different from any other guy. Most of us probably fall somewhere in between.

While we're still working out what causes what and only just beginning to study this stuff seriously - in the past century we've hardly even come to a consensus as to what transsexuality is - we're going to have some broad markers that don't always mean anything. We for sure have biological reasons for what happens though and it's good to go down this path.

In my immediate family (parents, children, siblings) there are a ton of biological markers of gender ambiguity. I think we do ourselves a disservice by using any marker to police anyone's identity, and we impede understanding by writing all the markers off as useless nonsense. There's too much evidence to dismiss it as coincidence.

I'm curious now though about how this goes across generations. I wish we had more reliable statistics about gender and sexuality within families. It seems odd to me that my closest friend doesn't know of any intersex or gay or trans people or even tomboys or effeminate people in his family, and in mine I know of lots, even though I barely know my blood family. Maybe I just notice the signs more easily the way once you learn a word you see it everywhere. Maybe he just never learned the words.

My ring finger is longer than my index finger. I think it looks more pronounced on my left hand, but I could be wrong.

Quote from: HughE on April 10, 2014, 05:38:39 PM
and is usually associated with intersex conditions (and which seems to occur more commonly in MTFs than in the biological male population as a whole). It consists of having:
* long, slender arms and legs
* legs that are significantly longer than the height of your upper body (the two should be about equal in men)
* an armspan 3cm or more greater than your height
* sparse or very fine body hair
* a female pubic hair pattern (like an upside down triangle and confined to the pubic region)
* youthful, feminine looking facial features
* an inability to build upper body muscle
* gynecomastica
other characteristics that can be associated with it are the female digit ratio, and a female carrying angle.

I agree being transgender is as much a biological condition as it is a mental one.

These above ratios describe me perfectly. I'm MTF and xxy though (Klinefelters) and have underdeveloped female parts, so to speak (please don't ask for details -thanks). I've always had a female body shape, narrow shoulders, short torso, long arms, very long legs for my height, and very feminine feet. My wrists and ankles are also very thin, and my hands are small and feminine. As for my index and ring fingers, unfortunately due to amputations from my 91 accident I can no longer measure this ratio on my dominant left hand. However, on my right hand my index is slightly (about 1-2 cm) longer than my ring finger. I was born on a Reservation out west in 1964 in October. Because my biological Mom is deceased (I lost her when I was 6, 2 months from my 7th birthday) I have no idea about DES or IS-CAIS, or other identifiable exposures my Mom might have been subjected to. I just know I'm a girl, and always have been a girl despite my adopted fathers insistence I be raised as a boy against my tribal elders wishes, and what my adopted Mom signed at my adoption (She wasn't married to him when she adopted me).

I just know I've lived my entire life in between genders always ashamed knowing inside I was a girl but unable to actually be normal. During High school it was especially hard for me in boys locker rooms. I refused to dress out for gym in school out of fear of giving those who tormented me even more ammunition once they saw I was different. I'm probably one of the few people who actually failed PE in high school, lol! I excelled in my other classes so reluctantly the school overlooked my failing gym class. You'd think my adopted parents would have explained to the school why it wasn't wise I dress out for gym. Actually at my insistence (I was a strong minded kid) my adopted Mom did try but as usual she was overridden by my macho adopted father. Sorry I have to stop here as many of these memories are painful for me (hence, why I've been avoiding these gender threads until now). I hope I've explained my situation well enough, without going too much off topic.

Ally :icon_flower:

Well, there are some interesting studies out there, and I think there is something to feminine physical traits in mtf who possess the more typical female higher ratio. However, that in and of itself does not really mean a great deal as there are plenty of feminine looking men who are perfectly happy as the men they happen to be. Then there are the men who have ratios that are lower and more typical to what is considered a more masculine looking male, who are gender dysphoric. Now this is all a theory, as the numbers in all studies and the groups for control are still leaving a great deal to be desired.

One, were the physical features of the male and female control groups a good cross section of various looks of non-gender dysphoric members of their birth sex? Meaning, were the builds equally represented? As one could hypothesis that the ratios only apply to physical features even without knowing this. There are studies that suggest that dysphoria is caused by hormone differences in first and third trimesters. The lower T in the third, after the normal (for males) higher T in the first leading to male genitalia. The finger ratio, if I understand most studies correctly, talks 13th week which plum lands us in the second trimester, smack dab in the middle of when... AGAIN IN THEORY... genitalia in the first tri, and bstc in the third are most influenced by hormones.

Thus in what I hope is logical thinking leads to the following thoughts;
1. If T levels are sufficiently high enough to create genitalia that are male, but for whatever reasons (stress to the mother, medication influence, biological abnormality, or simply chance along with other possibilities I have not thought of at the moment) lead to a reduction in T in the second tri the finger ratio would potentially indicate a correlation. Assuming the T level stay at the same lower levels or dip even lower going into the third trimester.
2. If T levels are sufficiently high enough to create genitalia that are male, and dip but not enough or at all, then 2d:4d ratio goes unaffected, yet for whatever reasons (as previously mentioned) T levels drop enough or even dramatically in that third trimester so that the bstc region (and possibly others, or something yet unknown, or not at all and this is all hocus pocus which is possible I guess) did not align the brain with the body or god forbid the all telling 2d:4d which SEEMS to have taken on a more meaningful role than sex organs for some.

Those here who really sound like they are beating themselves up for no good reason, as even if you (or me) are fetishistic (which I doubt most are exclusively so, and what is fetishistic anyways? Plenty of straight people if not all have them, so is dysphoria for whatever perceived reason even possible due to a fetish exclusively? Or isn't for that matter?) Blanchard and Lawerence especially make great arguments that transsexuality is still a very REAL issue for you (even if they assume way too much and that everyone is lying about themselves unknowingly, which sound more like convenience for their theory than plausible as most struggle mightily before getting to a point of actual transition). Then beyond that, why couldn't or wouldn't someone with the standard ratio fall into the second scenario I pose?

What I am getting at here is what I see 2d:4d having the possibility of PROVING here is one thing and one thing only. The variations of people, straight, gay, transexual, pansexual, asexual, and everything else inbetween each and outside and beyond sets it so that we all are indeed different in our bodies and minds. Those of us crossing into the gray areas if we are seeing male as black and female as white or vice a versa can not be pinpointed.

So I do see some interesting things in 2d:4d, but in no way do I see it as proving or disproving a biological correlation with gender dysphoria, but it does suggest an influence to at least a physical degree if only minor. It does little to validate whether someone is transsexual BECAUSE of the next possibility...

3. Insufficient T to produce male genitalia in the first trimester. Then increases, again for whatever unknown reason to a degree to affect 2d:4d ratios in the second trimester. Only to see the levels reduce again or increase again to produce either male or female typical brain structure (so far as I know bstc is the only known one and is also not proven, only theory as it is also not properly disproven).

Rendering the 2d:4d ratio moot, especially when you consider the final possibility and the one leading to the 2d:4d ratio of men who are happy men with a female typical ratio. Which I think could possibly show additional female typical physical traits, yet be happy as manly men, or gay men, but men none the less.

In the end, I feel no one needs to defend why they feel and think the way we do. I did not even touch on those that are gender fluid, and HOW would that work if 2d:4d ratio meant more than just another random development in the infinite possible differences between you and me and that person, and that one, and on and on.

Again, the CRUX of the dilemma we all face is that we are feeling (strongly) for whatever reason we are in the wrong BODY, and from what I know the fingers are part of the body... TYPICALLY.

So one could even make an argument, though I think a terrible one, that those with male genitalia but female 2d:4d ratios have a physical development issue and are NOT really transsexual! All they should be asking society to do is accept their fingers for the lengths that they are, or to allow them to saw them off to fit what ratio they identify this. Though I do not know a single manly man with a female 2d:4d ratio who is asking for either of these concessions.... Then again I do not know any transsexuals asking to saw their fingers off too.

But damn it, if that is what it takes to start to pass I may lead the charge!!! Plus, how much better of a "finger pointer" would I appear to be with a high 2d:4d ratio? Bleeping AWESOME I say! LOL

All kidding aside, I think we all do each other a great disservice sometimes when we try to put too much credence in a theory that I think makes us feel better about our own situations. This is entirely natural to want to do, but I really have not seen much use of it in any practical way.

Then again, I fail all litmus tests from a physical stand point, and even social stand point. I admit I could have fetishistic desires, but then I can make a damn good argument of how they developed out of frustration if anything, assuming that they are even fetishistic (I guess what I am getting at as I think I masterbate too much about being with a man as the female I believe I am. Am I nuts? Autogynephilic and just lying that I am interested in men? Am I transsexual, today, tomorrow, ever? All to be determined as I continue with baby steps through therapy, self improvement, and growth of my self awareness via doing my best not to apply social norms to my gender, sexuality, and birth sex WHICH I should have done before  starting a family during puberty when I has just started to question my sexuality (gender had already popped up but I wrote it off as I am crazy per parental suggestion.) OH birth sex and 2d:4d ratio was already set in stone by then, THANK GOD!!! lol

Honesty, I love you all, and marvel at how amazing some of you look! At how amazing some of you present yourselves! And at something each and one of you has and that is a thirst for self awareness and more.

Sincerely,
Your misfit friend, Toni

I tried this and came out as ring finger longer and a 98 variance and here is the but part.  I do have short fingers so that is one factor not accounted for just measuring fingers.  Dmab but gender confused call it that atm:) but I do have big paws and short fingers which changes the ratio a bit. By my guess I would be more on the female side or really maybe since short fingers a balance of both")  Hehe another thought to think on is are we ftm and mtf more balanced then your average cis??  And in no way to I slight someone who is transitioning for they maybe be as mtf more female then male and have every right to transition:)

I'm an FTM and ratio is lower, my ring finger is longer than my index finger.
The difference in percentage between the two options for FTMs shows a significant difference. :o

My hand looks like the first one my index is pretty long and my ring finger is smaller.

I'm kind of questioning I was born male so yeah...

Right now my 2d:3d:4d ratio is approx. 1:3:1.

My index finger is longer than my ring finger

My ring is slightly longer than my index. According to the image you included, that means I am probably good at sports. Truth in my case :)

ftm and both ring fingers are noticably longer than index fingers - I'm right handed, on my right hand it's just a little bit longer... on my left hand, my ring finger is almost as long as my middle finger.

I got this so wrong in another topic, but basically it's best to measure your fingers like so because sometimes by putting your fingers together n judging visually can give false data, anyone can put their fingers together n make one finger bigger then the other.

It's best to do it like this.

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ft0.gstatic.com%2Fimages%3Fq%3Dtbn%3AANd9GcTWfZAkWy19onfXHjZYkCo8DoqbfaDt8OZQLMs68KMYg-VW0EhN&hash=09bf2da9384f82a70b7b623887ade4ae2827c551)

Mine are even.

my index finger is longer than my ring finger on my right hand

I'm always surprised by this, I match more of the low digit ratio stuff, like math, terrible handwriting, and liking women

weird

My ring fingers are just barely longer than my index fingers. Mostly equal.

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FcI7O7lZ.png&hash=e824278d9ab2acda4479ebcbe59c933fe7f51e0b)

The "typically male" pattern on both hands.

My ring finger is obviously longer on my left hand and slightly longer on my right. Hard to see with the cast on my right hand.


Tony

Quote from: Emmaline on April 10, 2014, 10:00:20 PM
I find all the evidence supporting transexualism as an intersex condition compelling, and it fits in my case as I have very low testosterone,  female carrying angle and finger ratios, sparce facial and body hair, gender dysphoria and varicocele.

My mother had a long string of miscarriages prior to me, and this strongly suggests I am a DES baby as it was the practice in that era.

Symptoms of GD occured very young, during which time my family life was stable and secure- good role models on both sides.  No siblings to muddy the waters...  I still tried to cut off parts with scissors... which suggests it is not a psychological disorder in my case that triggered such drastic behavior.   I would have to conclude it is physical.

This is really good.   My index finger is shorter than my ring finger....hmmm.

I too had gender identity issues as a child, and playing with dolls, wearing moms and sisters clothes, trying to use "personal feminine products", etc..   Have always felt very different and unique.

It took 10 years of trying to have children, with low testosterone as part of it.  I have / had limited body hair.  And, to your DES child...I had never heard of it.    My mother in 1963 misscarried / baby died within days of birth.   I was born 3 years later.   My mother and father were both raised with a lot of trauma, during the Second World War.   I have always wondered if this misscarage and my mother's health

I am MTF and I am left handed, and my ring finger is longer then my index finger. This is all quite nonsense though, but fun none the less.

Quote from: TicTac on April 12, 2018, 12:51:01 AM
I am MTF and I am left handed, and my ring finger is longer then my index finger. This is all quite nonsense though, but fun none the less.

Not necessarily nonsense, actually. I've read that it's directly proportional to the amount of estrogen you're exposed to in the womb. You (and I) received a lot more than most cis men and even some cis women.

I don't know if there's any correlation between fetal hormones and gender identity, but it's an interesting thing to think about.

I vote for nonsense, too.

Maybe it's nonsense, maybe it isn't.  But either way, you need to measure the fingers correctly.  You can't tell from a photograph, especially on the back side of the hand.

The measurement is made on the palm side of the hand.  Measure the fingers from the crease at the base of the finger to the tip.  My index finger looks like it is nearly a centimetre longer than my ring finger.  But in face, measured correctly, they are exactly the same length.  (Which, for reference is just barely within the female range.)

The 2D:4D finger length ratio is a known sexually dimorphic property.  There is substantial overlap between the male and female ranges, however.  The ratio reflects in-utero hormone exposure levels among many other influences.

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9c/Digit_ratio_visualization_according_to_data_from_Bailey_and_Hurd%2C_2005.png)

I was exposed to very high levels of a synthetic estrogen, DES, at around 50,000 times the serum level of a modern birth control pill, starting around 10 weeks into fetal development.   This had an impact on tissues that started growth past this point, including the extremities and much of the brain.  (I wear a women's medium glove and size 9 - 9 1/2 women's shoes for what that's worth.)

My 2D:4D ratio is 1.01. 

Something about my camera I think is making my hands appear slightly fatter than they really are.

Here's my hand FRONT (not back). Flip my hands around to the backside and my index is shorter than my ring but this way, they both appear about equal.  Go figure. 

(https://i.imgur.com/oOxuqFz.jpg)

My finger to digit ratio.  What's that make me? I'm guessing lesbian :P :P :P
My in utero exposure to hormones is anyone's guess.  My overall biology closely behind that guess.

Quote from: Michelle_P on April 25, 2018, 04:19:37 PM
The 2D:4D finger length ratio is a known sexually dimorphic property.  There is substantial overlap between the male and female ranges, however........

The amount of angst and fighting that the digit ratio causes is a known property too.  :)

Finger length no more determines one's gender than one's genitals do.

Too many people get stuck on one body part or aspect of transitioning and forget to live life as who they are.

That's why we have  this topic.  (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,235440.msg2108953.html#msg2108953)  :laugh:

I'm right-handed and my index finger is slightly longer than the ring finger on both of my hands. Bit more so on my left hand though. I'm ftm and gay. My fingers don't know my gender xD