Susan's Place Transgender Resources

Statement: Androgynes have it easier (than Transsexuals).
Let's draw a comparison here.

Topics involved

• Coming out: 'I don't feel like I belong with males or females' – is that really going to turn someone's world upside-down? Plenty of folk feel like they don't belong. It's why there are social clubs and the cliché statement 'We'll do our best to make you feel right at home'. That's nothing compared to confronting your loved ones with a 180.
• GID: So you think your body isn't right, that some parts 'ought to be adjusted'. Perhaps open a women's magazine someday and read some 'I'm unhappy about body part X' articles. People are (nearly) always unhappy with something about their body, but at least it's the right body.
• Transitioning: For most just a haircut, a wardrobe change, for others hormones, but that doesn't really take up years and years of your life with never ending paperwork.
• Discrimination: let's invite a club of non tolerant airheads and see who gets beaten up (physically/verbally) firs shall we.

Count the prejudices, count the facts, what is your honest opinion on this statement, these topics and what truth can you share?

I invite everyone; AG's, TS,' TG's, IS's, SO's, CD's – the whole umbrella, to participate.


Poll Results 03/08/2010
Yes - 3 (8.6%)
Maybe - 10 (28.6%)
No - 22 (62.9%)

Total Members Voted: 35



Note: Yes I am playing the devil's advocate here and this topic is intended to provoke a discussion not to offend. I'm just curious about some real opinions.
Try to keep the thread flame-free though - much appreciated.

Ah, and if you disagree with this thread, feel offended (not my intention) or have some questions about it then feel free to throw me a pm.  8)

Do you think I'm taken seriously? Because I'm not. I'm forced to lie to my doctors to get the hormones I feel like I need. MtF's or FtM's don't have to lie. They have the WHOLE SOC set up for them. There's NOTHING for me. Nothing.

To the point where...because I can't find any androgyns in my community anywhere...I really do feel like an island to myself. I feel like the only transitioning andro in the world.

I came out to my SIL recently and it went really well. Since...she's basically treated me like this is a phase and something she should just ignore. She still calls me "sista" and other fem things. She openly "doesn't get it" because there are two options. Female, and male. Since I don't "feel like either" she's decided FOR ME that I'm female and should be treated as such.

I've actually heard it said that "I understand people who feel like they were born in the wrong body..I get that. But this...feeling like neither?! Well...that I just don't get."

To your point of who would get beaten up first? I surmise that the person standing closest to the offenders would get beat first.

Well, I'd say it depends on the androgyne and their particular feelings about their own androgyny.

Broadly, there are two basic categories of androgynes - those who prefer an androgynous gender expression, and those who have a strong desire for a physically androgynous body. There are of course some who belong to both groups.

The first group - the gender-angrogynes, for shorthand - might have it easier when it comes to being understood and accepted. It helps if they're attracted to people of the same biological sex, since there's lots of room for androgynous or gender-bending presentations in the gay communities, but even if they're biologically heterosexual they probably won't have a terribly hard time being accepted, no more so than people with other non-standard presentations like goths or people into body modification. They probably do have a hard time being taken seriously though; pronoun use is likely to be a problem, their bathroom/locker room concerns will be totally ignored, and they may feel rather invisible.

Body-androgynes are in a whole different boat. There are no standards of medical care for them (though this may change with the new DSM), they aren't taken seriously by the public, and even the trans community might have a little trouble comprehending their feelings about themselves. I have to admit that my brain has a little trouble wrapping itself around the idea of wanting an androgynous body (not too much more trouble than I have understanding those who want a female body) but I've come to a certain level of understanding of both through analogy to my own experience. Those who haven't had that experience have to do a lot of work to come to a place of understanding, even if they start in a place of respect and empathy.

Maybe transsexuals have it both harder and easier than androgynes. In a general sense of course. Situations vary. Harder in terms of all that transition entails and generally more extreme incongruency issues. Easier because our transition ends. Our state of incongruency ends for the most part. We go through it, and then we're done. Androgynes have it difficult because their path is not defined. And the light at the end of the tunnel is hazy.
Plus with our society being so hung up on male and female, transsexuals have more signposts and can achieve 'normalcy' or whatever afterwards.
But that's just a general simplified guess.

Quote from: Nero on February 26, 2010, 11:14:57 AM
Maybe transsexuals have it both harder and easier than androgynes. In a general sense of course. Situations vary. Harder in terms of all that transition entails and generally more extreme incongruency issues. Easier because our transition ends. Our state of incongruency ends for the most part. We go through it, and then we're done. Androgynes have it difficult because their path is not defined. And the light at the end of the tunnel is hazy.
Plus with our society being so hung up on male and female, transsexuals have more signposts and can achieve 'normalcy' or whatever afterwards.
But that's just a general simplified guess.

That's a pretty good synopsis, nero. While my GID is less than someone who may be considering transition, it will never end/go way. And there is not much I can do about it.

Perhaps it is just a different experience?

Quote from: phx_rising on February 26, 2010, 09:42:19 AM
She openly "doesn't get it" because there are two options. Female, and male. Since I don't "feel like either" she's decided FOR ME that I'm female and should be treated as such.

I think this is one of the biggest issues androgynes face. People have a hard enough time accepting that someone might be the opposite gender of their body and for the life of them can't see the grey area between male and female. More often than not they just can't get their head around how someone can feel like neither or both or something completely different.

It takes a lot of strength to look inside and accept who you are no matter how different it might be from the "norm" and even more to be open about it and try to educate others who may never really "get it." This goes for anyone who falls under the TG umbrella. We all face our personal struggles and need to find strength to be who we are no matter what others think.

As for who has it easier, I'm not one to judge. There are transsexuals who have had a breeze getting through transition and then there are those who struggle and there are androgynes who have had an easy go with it and others who struggle with their gender daily.

So I guess my answer is I have no answer. lol

Yes, it's just a different experience, a different manifestation of GID.
Also, androgynes who do wish to take medical steps may run into difficulties. Not just the legalities but the actual medicines and surgeries are for someone going from one extreme to another. Like in the case of T, anyone staying on it will eventually cross over into male visually. So, it might be harder to find the right mix of medicines to achieve a physical androgynous state. Especially for a physically female person. Or maybe estrogen blockers? I don't know.

Quote from: riven1 on February 26, 2010, 12:02:15 PM
That's a pretty good synopsis, nero. While my GID is less than someone who may be considering transition, it will never end/go way. And there is not much I can do about it.

Perhaps it is just a different experience?

I don't see how it is easier for me then the trans people who go to the other side of the Binary.  As a transitioning Androgyne (toward the middle) I've been rejected by TS people.  Its OK for me to be seen with them in public as long as fit the Binary.  Normaly when I go to trans groups other then a quick Hello when I arrive and a quick good bye when I leave most of the time people don't wish to comunicate with me at all
It is not uncomon for me to be laughed at and some of the looks I get in public make me wonder if I'm safe or about to get bashed.
No I dont see how TS people would have it harder then me.
also transitioning there are rules that doctors follow and trying to find someone who will give you a procidure that is outside the norm is hard and finding shrinks who are willing to accept that not everyone fits into a label/diagnosis is hard you get labled constantly as confused.  Just because I don't fit your Boxes doesn't make me confused.

I'm on the fence leading towards easier,

let me put it in a metaphor...

a TG is climbing a large mountain, knackering, far and sometimes slippery - and androgyne is going through a wood, maybe less knackering but it is much harder to find the right way and more likely to run out of provisions.

During my first year of transition, a wise friend who is post op said to me, those who are in between have it the hardest. While I wouldn't want to make a blanket statement about who has the harder path, I can say from my personal experience that being who I am is not at all easy.

For one, there doesn't seem to be an end to the process, it's a constant transition, like eternal purgatory. As others have said, people seem to understand someone switching from one to the other, but don't get the idea that someone could be neither male or female.

Z

I am an MTF and my wife of 4 years is an androgen.

From what I can see it is much harder on hir than it is on me. I rarely find myself in conflict over gender anymore, Sevan is. It doesn't look nice at all.

For my dollar I would say Andro's have it much worse.

Hey ya'll, I got to thank all those who have voted, and those who have left their comments. It's really nice to see this thing flow.  8)

What I'm gathering from the posts it that it isn't the 'label' that determines ease, but the individual and their individual situation. Like Osiris pointed out; some ts have a breeze going through transition, for others it's one big struggle.
One ag might only need small modifications to be 'happy', and might have it easier in the acceptance circuit like Kyrill pointed out.

Yeah, but it's a hazy tunnel Nero, well said. I remember back in 2007 when I first came to these forums there was quite some discussion about the 'different kind of androgynes' and still there were plenty who didn't fit the categories. No guideless, no bad motherf***** book, just solemn journeys with a lot of 'this works for me' lines.

Though in the end I ponder when it comes to ags with GID (neutrois example) and transsexuals what's worse: longing for the (currently) impossible or longing for the possible that in some cases is simply out of reach (financially whatsoever). If something's impossible people tend to compromise and eventually find ease in what is possible, but what if what you so much desire is possible but out of reach? I'm inclined to think the first might have an easier time to make peace. Someone may so much desire for humans to be able to fly, but it's an impossibility, they'll rely on machinery to get them as close as possible, and while it isn't perfect it'll still bring a smile to their face.

Personally I am a nullgender. That throws me in quite an 'impossible' circuit. Hormones isn't an option for me since I don't see how adding (even) more hormones is going to get me where I want to be (I want minus, not plus). Then again; a scale with nothing on both sides is just as balanced as one with the same amount on both sides. Still, I consider myself to be in quite a positive place since I'm grateful for all the small possibilities: a simple binder, a simple haircut, a bit of training, and in the end it's not the 4/5 days of PMS a month that matter; it's the 25/26 days without PMS that do.

So, while I might be in a position where my desires are impossiblities, I still consider myself to have it easier than most transsexuals.

Since I've read posts by members of this site saying that androgynes should "commit to a gender" and that the only "real" genders are male and female, I would not necessarily agree that androgynes have it easier. Somethings are easier yes, I think that's true. But I don't think we have it easier in all things.

Anyone that thinks there are only two genders need only get to know my Sevan. Sevan is not very fem or male but Sevan is definatly an androgyn. Thats a third gender right there. If there are 3 when there are only suposed to be 2 maybe there are even more....?

Quote from: cynthialee on March 01, 2010, 12:43:15 PM
Anyone that thinks there are only two genders need only get to know my Sevan. Sevan is not very fem or male but Sevan is definatly an androgyn. Thats a third gender right there. If there are 3 when there are only suposed to be 2 maybe there are even more....?

I kind of like Z's sig about 5 genders. What were those 5 again - male, female, androgyne, and ?

Male, female, masculine female, feminine male, and Adrogyn

Quote from: no_id on February 26, 2010, 05:11:34 AMThat's nothing compared to confronting your loved ones with a 360.

Hmm, it's more like a 180.

I have lived on 3 sides of the fence, maybe I have some useful insite. I identified as androgyne for a long time, and for a long time I was openely trans looking - mixed dress and accessories. That felt fine for me but it was hard in that I got stared at all the time. Kids would point me out to their parents, shop assistants tried to stear me to male clothing. I was read as gay, queer, student, psyco, and sexual deviant. I did not feel safe in public bathrooms. It was stupid. Like living in treacle, always under tension. Explaining it was a pain, everyone would go "I get it, I like doing male things too sometimes (from women)"

In that sense I find it easier being a woman. I guess I am lucky in that I don't find it much of a struggle to pass (not that I pass in every situation, but I act like I belong and most people accept that). Now I can just blend in to some extent. It feels good to go unnoticed yet be recognised as belonging to a sisterhood. I can go into the ladies and chat to other women. People let me smile at their kids, I feel like I belong when I shop for clothing. There is freedom in that. The world is more permissive when you fit the binary. As a woman I have more leeway for genderbending too.

I imagine that for those transgenders that don't pass as men or women they would face many of the same issues andros do.

Oh yeah, and for a real post, I've occasionally thought about it and concluded that I'm happy with the fact that I am transsexual and not androgynous.

My parents are probably having (or going to have) a hard enough time to swallow this. The easiest one for them would probably be that I'm a straight male. Being gay, androgynous, or any other more "abnormal" gender problem would probably get me dismissed as crazy or going through some sort of phase. And there is the fact that being outside the binary makes people uncomfortable.

I guess I'm kind of androgynous now though, huh? I have no desire to be seen as a female by anybody really, so I'm fairly confident that I am not seeking androgyny.

Quote from: SilverFang on March 01, 2010, 01:41:05 PM
Hmm, it's more like a 180.

Corrected. ;)

i said maybe, because i don't necessarily think they have it easier, but i also wouldn't say that they have it just the same. in some cases i don't view androgynes as someone changing gender, but rather someone who chooses not to claim a male or female gender, because they just don't see the need to, but then in other situations i think maybe they are changing gender in a way, because you don't necessarily have to be male or female to have a gender. androgynes seem to be relatively content with most parts of their gender, so they don't really make as many changes as someone going from male to female or female to male, but this is something that may make most people wonder.

Quote from: NicoleFoxFan on March 01, 2010, 07:20:36 PM
but rather someone who chooses not to claim a male or female gender

Some of us claim both genders   :-*

Quote from: ativan on March 01, 2010, 11:03:55 PM
  In a lot of ways I don't really feel worthy to belong.

Lovely post like that, course your worthy, if any of us are worthy - I feel we're more like a refugee camp or shanty town - the worthy people only come for anthropological study.

One of my loved ones confronted me with a 360.  Then we played Halo.

Quote from: NicoleFoxFan on March 01, 2010, 07:20:36 PM
i don't view androgynes as someone changing gender, but rather someone who chooses not to claim a male or female gender, because they just don't see the need to,

Personally I don't think a 'gender' can be claimed. What 'gender' someone indentifies as, yes, what 'gender' someone presents as, yes. Also, it's more of a 'it doesn't make sense to' than a 'don't see a need to' imho.

Quotebut then in other situations i think maybe they are changing gender in a way, because you don't necessarily have to be male or female to have a gender.

I think you mean 'sex' here. Technically people don't change gender, they change sex (although some along the road might identify as a different gender).

Quoteandrogynes seem to be relatively content with most parts of their gender, so they don't really make as many changes as someone going from male to female or female to male, but this is something that may make most people wonder.

There's quite a few different androgynes on the playground and some of them choose to go through the same transitional process as TS (variations included). Unfortunately for those who wish to 'nullify' themselves there is currently no treatment provided which restricts many possible 'changes'.

Quote from: ativanWhich is easier? I dunno. Which is harder? I'm not sure it really matters. Its hard at some point, for some time ,for anyone here, isn't it?

I think that deserves a 'bingo'.

I don't know which is easier in terms of everyday or transition experience. But as someone just starting to muddle through this binary problem, I think that androgyny is hella confusing.

If I wanted a male body/identity I'd have plenty of examples on how to dress, how to act, and how to shape and use my body. Even though it may not be easy to get there, I'd have a good idea where I was going. But if I want an andro body and I'm trying to figure out how to get to that place, I have to patch together my measuring tape at the same time I'm holding it up to myself.

Quote from: ativan on March 01, 2010, 11:03:55 PM
   The mental distance from one side of binary to the other, Where Am I??? It's hard.

This. For me, trying to build something between the poles is exciting, but the ambiguity also opens up a lot of opportunity for self-doubt. Somehow I'm under the impression that if I were uncomplicatedly (ha) TS, I would feel more certain about myself.

Quote from: tole on March 06, 2010, 10:30:47 AM
I don't know which is easier in terms of everyday or transition experience. But as someone just starting to muddle through this binary problem, I think that androgyny is hella confusing.

Welcome to the club :) It is confusing being an androgyne. Most of us just make our own reality since everyone else's doesn't seem to fit too well.

I like that, I've always felt I'm pretty much making it up as I go.

fake it till you make it

Y'all have your easy and hard bits, we have ours.  I don't think it would be easier to be androgynous in this world, but it may not necessarily be harder either.

I think it's probably easier for your family to accept, but harder for society at large- not that it's easy for either of us on either of those counts.  Pick your poison I guess as to which is worse.

Quote from: nathan on March 03, 2010, 09:56:26 PM
One of my loved ones confronted me with a 360.  Then we played Halo.

i wonder if anyone else got that.

Quote from: NicoleFoxFan on March 07, 2010, 11:07:57 AM
i wonder if anyone else got that.

I did, but didn't really think it was funny.

Quote from: tekla on March 06, 2010, 10:33:09 PM
I like that, I've always felt I'm pretty much making it up as I go.

wouldn't want it any other way

Quote from: SilverFang on March 07, 2010, 01:04:07 PM
I did, but didn't really think it was funny.

I thought it was pretty funny. The game reference by itself was okay, but when you factor in that a circle is 360 degrees and a halo is a circle, and then add in the game reference...well, it's not bad word play, taken all together.

Hi...
  & thats why we keeped our mouths shut  50 years ago at age 10. or get taken away to the nut house . by the men in white suits ,
There are no pointers a long the way for us we are on our own there fore we have to be strong mentaly or we lose it. & still get to the nut house .
   so it took that long to know what was going to happen so yes to the ?  of,    is it harder for us who are andros & yes we are in no mans land not really knowing . are we one or the other .
Now of cause i know for sure with out any doughts as to who i am , & yes its great once you know because then you can really live.
      what is easyer is ,  you can live as a woman or male & still know who you are . & for me knowing i have a some what male back ground that is still me yet can embrace my womans side ,   knowing who you are .  not so much what you are , yet can be accepted for who you are .
  & those of you who are unsure still ,   dont give up . it took me 50 years to know what i was doing & then  8 more years to see who i was ,  & now at 62 live as to who i am with out any concerns as to why i am the way i am . & can live life to its fullest & be accepted as a woman with that male back ground .

,& that, is what is so neat,

...noeleena...

Quote from: riven1 on March 06, 2010, 10:16:48 PM
Most of us just make our own reality since everyone else's doesn't seem to fit too well.

Quote from: tekla on March 06, 2010, 10:33:09 PM
I like that, I've always felt I'm pretty much making it up as I go.

So on the plus side then, there's no wrong way. I'd buy that.

I have to say maybe. Society will always attempt to put people into binary catagories that may work better to TSes that pass but, when they don't people can just be exceptionally cruel to them. It seems with androgynes many people would simply make judgements as to your gender and not think twice, perhaps a "that is a feminine man/ masculine woman" and that might not be so difficult... However, getting closer to people does seem a bit more difficult, as almost everyone has heard of a TS while many haven't even considered the possibility of "something else".

Truth be told, no one can really make a decision over what is more or less difficult. It might sound cliché but, the truth is I can only live my own life, therefore I lack a valid reference point to judge such things. It has been a stimulation conversation though, very insightful to see how people view their own struggles in the context of the greater community.