Susan's Place Transgender Resources

'out' as in yourself or a third party causing someone to have suspicion that you are a transexual. of course there can be the physical appearance factors like if you've got huge shoulders narrow hip flat chested loooks like arnold schwarzenegger with a barry white voice and hair all over except on your head  :D

but beyond that?

A vaginal exam at the doctor's office.  Other than that nothing.  I'm a college student & I share this place with other roommates, some girls like myself.  We share everything, the showers, the locker rooms & nobody has ever questioned me about anything. 

Very little physically unless you have, as the OP said, a poor voice a huge adams apple or something like that... in which case you should probably get that seen to.

The things which could out you are either coincidences like meeting someone from your past or little behavioural things which could trip up someone who hasn't grown up in that gender. For example someone might notice if you never seem to buy tampons or pads or have them in your bag.

I'm pretty well placed having actually managed to more or less grow up as a girl but even I found that I would very occasionally say something or do something and then think afterwards, no that wasn't quite right. Fortunately no one ever seemed to notice and after the best part of 30 years all those little potential slips have now been ironed out.

So the answer is not a lot...

I'm not supermodel beautiful but my features are undoubtedly female.  If some of you remember my piccies, you know I'm right :P I have no Adam's apple (which by the way is a dead giveaway of maleness), I've got softer characteristics, no square jaw or prominent brow ridges, so facially I'm okay.  I'm small frame, small hands, small feet, small breasts proportional to my body frame, passable voice.  No broad shoulders & I'm not tall.  It helps to be half Hispanic & half French :laugh: so physically I'm okay too.  I haven't kept in touch with people from "my past" but if we were to meet, they wouldn't know who I am anyway.  They wouldn't say "oh that girl there used to be a bloke" because there wouldn't be anything in their knowledge to make them think that.

So the only thing I can think of is me putting my piccie (like I did before - bad idea) on a transgender forum & someone from my current life stumbling upon it, opening an account at Susan's & reading everything I've posted so far.  Maybe too bizarre but I know someone that was outed that way.

the only thing i can think of that cannot be changed that can still out you is your fingers. IIRC it is a XY thing but, people born male have a longer ring finger than index finger, I don't think this is anything the average person could notice though...

Quote from: Hikari on March 13, 2010, 05:04:13 PM
the only thing i can think of that cannot be changed that can still out you is your fingers. IIRC it is a XY thing but, people born male have a longer ring finger than index finger, I don't think this is anything the average person could notice though...

Not true, I was born female and my ring finger is much longer than my index finger

Agreed definitely not true. My index and ring fingers are the same length almost to the milimeter.

There theory is that finger length ratio is an indication of how much tetstosterone you were exposed to in the womb. In my case presumably very little, although I don't know if Androgen Insensitivity maybe skews the results in my case.

I am sure it isn't always true, but there are also plenty of genetic girls with a bit of an addams apple, and people suspect them as well. What I mean to say to be more correct is statistically speaking people born male have longer ring fingers than genetic girls usually.

I know it isn't always the case as my right index finger is longer than my right ring finger by 1mm while my left is shorter by 4mm. When talking about anatomy nothing is ever absolute, every person is different. 

If you're in a serious relationship and haven't disclosed, if the topic of kids comes up, you might have trouble answering questions about your infertility convincingly.

Also, any x-ray that shows your pelvis is likely to out you.

Other than the medical stuff...I don't see any of the behavioral stuff mattering. Have you seen how hard it is for FTMs to be seen as male? No purse, no tampons, no pads, no makeup, none of the accoutrements of femininity is necessary if your body is sending "female" signals.

QuoteI don't see any of the behavioral stuff mattering. Have you seen how hard it is for FTMs to be seen as male? No purse, no tampons, no pads, no makeup, none of the accoutrements of femininity is necessary if your body is sending "female" signals.

That is a bit contradictory.

Behavior matters.

hmm interesting comments...fyi school textbooks nolonger list adams apple as a secondary sex characterstic, probably b'cos there's no medical certainty as to how 'big' the adam's apple got to be before it is regarded 'male'...lots of my female friends have it anyways...seems like if you are thin there's a high chance that there will be a bit of apple.

i guess the behavioral slips are most likely to be picked up by a female friend, and perhaps a husband may start wondering why his wife never had a period. on another note, has any girl here been outed by her gyne through physical exam alone?

I don't see how I'm contradicting myself. Behaviour matters somewhat, in that if you can manage to make your body look sufficiently ambiguous, your behaviour/clothes/whatever can push you over into being seen as male. But if the body isn't ambiguous, you can behave in as masculine a manner as you like and it's not going to make a difference.

And the examples listed...I mean, not only have I never carried tampons/pads in my bag, even in full-femme mode I never even carried a bag other than for specific purposes like books or gym stuff. What did people think of that? I have no clue, but I can tell you nobody ever thought I was a trans woman because of it. Or because I walk like a guy (always did) or because I'm a little taller than average or because I curse like a Sailor (was one) or because I prefer weight lifting to cardio or because my ring finger's longer than my index finger or because of any of the millions of things about me that indicate I wasn't brought up as a proper little girl (I was, but it didn't take).

Quote from: kyril on March 14, 2010, 10:45:21 AM
I don't see how I'm contradicting myself. Behaviour matters somewhat, in that if you can manage to make your body look sufficiently ambiguous, your behaviour/clothes/whatever can push you over into being seen as male. But if the body isn't ambiguous, you can behave in as masculine a manner as you like and it's not going to make a difference.

And the examples listed...I mean, not only have I never carried tampons/pads in my bag, even in full-femme mode I never even carried a bag other than for specific purposes like books or gym stuff. What did people think of that? I have no clue, but I can tell you nobody ever thought I was a trans woman because of it. Or because I walk like a guy (always did) or because I'm a little taller than average or because I curse like a Sailor (was one) or because I prefer weight lifting to cardio or because my ring finger's longer than my index finger or because of any of the millions of things about me that indicate I wasn't brought up as a proper little girl (I was, but it didn't take).

I never carried a purse/bag either or carried hygeine items. Lifted weights and was raised pretty much as a guy for the first 14 years. At 16 I was accused of being gay cause i smiled at a guy.  Then the girl training started. Now I can't pull off the guy mode near as well. It is the little behaviors that cause the problem, looks make a difference but it is a total of all cues that give an impression one way or the other.


To say it isn't behavior and it isn't how you dress or look means there is nothing to give you away. Those "female signals" are body language as well as possibly pheromones or such.

Beyond the physical, I find that the way you carry yourself -- I guess, your aura -- makes a difference. It's hard to explain, but confidence in yourself as a woman makes a big difference. You don't have to be a super model or look perfect, because there's a lot of variation; however, if you're going around constantly wondering if people know about your past, or think about any "maleness" it will draw attention and have people have a second look at you. I've seen it countless of times with many other TS girls.

You can have the perfect looks and the perfect voice and the perfect mannerisms - but if you don't know if you're woman, others will sense it. There's a difference in knowing and wanting to be or trying to be.

I know I'm a woman, and that's not questioned. I might not be perfect, and sometimes I will nit-pick myself. I will think that my voice sux, or that my looks aren't good enough. I don't know if I'll ever get over that. But, at the end of the day, I know I'm a woman and I've never been questioned on that. I own that.

I explained to one friend that it's like if you decided to go for a fashion that you don't normally wear -- say, you normally dress pretty regular, and then decide one day to goth it up. Then, you go walk around the mall all gothed up dressed different than yourself -- people are going to notice you and get a sense that something isn't right. You'll probably run into other goths who'll probably spot you as a poser right away.

So, really, a lot of it comes down to your own psychology and knowing who you are and owning it. Others will sense that and you'll be fine.

Not that the physical things don't help, such as looks, voice and mannerisms. Those are great things to work on because those are tools for you to use to become yourself. If you don't know yourself, however, then those tools will have no foundation to build on. Also, look good for you and sound good for you - it's about you. Don't do it to try to impress others or try to make them accept you, 'cause people are going to sense that and wonder what's up. Hold yourself up high, be yourself, and everything else will follow.

That is very true.

I agree with what Gothique11 said very much.

In fact I think I said something rather similar in an earlier thread when someone was going on about silicone implants and FFS and the like - and I said - actually "passing" (don't really like that word) is more about having confidence in who you are than in looking perfect. It's why some poor souls never manage it, because they are forever chasing more and more visual perfection and never reaching the psychological point of self belief.

I'm a pretty average middle aged woman. I "pass" not because I look perfect or particularly pretty but because I know in my bones 100% that that is what I am.

QuoteI "pass" not because I look perfect or particularly pretty

I disagree in part. You are particularly pretty whether you think so or not.

Just ask Alison.

Quote from: kyril on March 14, 2010, 10:45:21 AM

And the examples listed...I mean, not only have I never carried tampons/pads in my bag, even in full-femme mode I never even carried a bag other than for specific purposes like books or gym stuff. What did people think of that? I have no clue, but I can tell you nobody ever thought I was a trans woman because of it.

One day I went to get a haircut, didn't expect to pass, but I did. Went through the whole thing, and asked for a bag at the end because they gave me some token cosmetic stuff as a first time customer. She said something like 'That's what happens when you don't carry a purse!'

I told her that I was expecting to just run in real quick and do an errand and didn't want to lug it around. Did I feel self conscious not carrying a purse? Oddly enough, yes. I keep it in mind any time I'm not carrying one.

Quote from: LordKAT on March 14, 2010, 08:16:03 PM

I disagree in part. You are particularly pretty whether you think so or not.

Just ask Alison.

Blush! gasp faint...  Thank you! :)

but Alison is of course biased - as indeed I am over her. To me she's the most beautiful woman in the world and I am very lucky to have her by my side.

Depending upon how deeply they dig, there is always the chance that a background check will out you to an employer, especially if your original name was gender specific. 

Of course, some people have to really watch what parts of their past they discuss with people.  For example, I know a woman who was a merchant marine long before women were allowed in most military services.  Same is true for another lady I know who fought in WWII.  (Or was if Korea?  Not sure.)  And then there are a couple guys I know of who can never use their college degrees on their resumes because they went to all girl schools. 

Depending upon how deeply they dig, there is always the chance that a background check will out you to an employer, especially if your original name was gender specific.

If anyone cares enough to pay for it, anybody can find out just about anything, on anyone - particularly the government and financial sectors.

Add to that:
- x-rays and similar medical scans
- DNA
- People who knew you before. (When I got a security clearance back in the 1980's the FBI went and talked to people who knew me, and taught me in High School, and then went to the state I have lived in for 7/8th grade and made inquires there.)

Quote from: tekla on March 15, 2010, 04:28:34 AM
(When I got a security clearance back in the 1980's the FBI went and talked to people who knew me, and taught me in High School, and then went to the state I have lived in for 7/8th grade and made inquires there.)

Been there too! - For one job I did many years ago, which obviously I can't talk about, I had to sign the UK official secrets act and be positively vetted (one of the highest forms of security check in the UK) that was fun. Fortunately I had decided to be open with them so it wasn't a problem.

i feel im pretty lucky on that point my name is the same either sex so a name check will never out me its a minor spelling change jesse to jessie ive even thought about slipping it past DMV lol
jessica

Quote from: tekla on March 15, 2010, 04:28:34 AM
Depending upon how deeply they dig, there is always the chance that a background check will out you to an employer, especially if your original name was gender specific.

If anyone cares enough to pay for it, anybody can find out just about anything, on anyone - particularly the government and financial sectors.

Add to that:
- x-rays and similar medical scans
- DNA
- People who knew you before. (When I got a security clearance back in the 1980's the FBI went and talked to people who knew me, and taught me in High School, and then went to the state I have lived in for 7/8th grade and made inquires there.)

Wow.  They'd have fun doing a background check on me, then. I went to 10 different schools in 2 states and 3 countries, not counting the year I was home schooled while we traveled around Europe and Africa. :D  It might almost be fun to try to get a security clearance just to see how far they dig.   ;D

I can believe they can find anything, though.  When my dad was applying for his first security clearance, shortly before my parents got married, my mom's godfather (who had probably done a background check on him at the request of my mom's dad.  :D ) advised him to dump his roommate because the guy was dealing drugs on the side.  My dad lived with the guy and had no idea.  Needless to say, he followed that advice.

Quote from: tekla on March 15, 2010, 04:28:34 AM...When I got a security clearance back in the 1980's the FBI went and talked to people who knew me....

Back in the late 1970's (about 5 years post-op and 29 years of age) the company I worked for took on some Defence work and the security clearance required a 25 year background check. What a PAIN! You had to include every place you had lived, every absence from the country, and the names of three people who had known you at least 10 years. The question that concerned me was "Have you ever been known by any other name(s)?" I wrote "Information available to authorized investigator only." al la 'witness protection' style.

The background check was done by the RCMP and I got a call from a senior officer asking about this. I explained the situation to him (it was a lot less common in those days LOL!) and he assured me that the investigation would be handled with the utmost discretion and no mention of it would be made in the official file. He was true to his word! I heard from some of my references and the investigator had used the proper name and pronouns when talking to each person ... he preserved my stealth.  ;D

Unless I'm applying for some kind of CIA job or a freak is obsessed with me, who would take the time & pay money to find out things about me though a 20-year, 15-year background check?

An employer?  Well, again unless I transitioned old (e.g, thirties, forties, fifties, sixties, YIKES!!) & had a lot of baggage when I did, maybe I'd be worried.  But not everybody transitions so old & not everybody's got so much baggage on our backs.  So for me it's the medical stuff that could out me.

Background checks were once upon a time reserved for people doing high level security work or handling large sums of money.  Then it became anyone working with kids.  Then anyone handling any sum of money, or any position of trust.  Then it slowly morphed into everyone.  Background checks/credit checks are required for most jobs now, largely because companies are being held financially responsible for your actions while on the job, and their insurance carriers demand it.

And said checks can run from $5 to $50, all of which is tax-deductible for the company running them.

Quote from: jesse on March 15, 2010, 04:37:24 AM
i feel im pretty lucky on that point my name is the same either sex so a name check will never out me its a minor spelling change jesse to jessie ive even thought about slipping it past DMV lol
jessica

And I feel you're pretty lucky because, sweetie, you are gorgeous! Love that new avatar pic!!

Sorry, off-topic, but I felt it had to be said! :)

Quote from: Northern Jane on March 16, 2010, 04:19:08 AM
Back in the late 1970's (about 5 years post-op and 29 years of age) the company I worked for took on some Defence work and the security clearance required a 25 year background check. What a PAIN! You had to include every place you had lived, every absence from the country, and the names of three people who had known you at least 10 years. The question that concerned me was "Have you ever been known by any other name(s)?" I wrote "Information available to authorized investigator only." al la 'witness protection' style.

25 years? :o :o

AFAIK, Developed Vetting in the UK only ask 10. Sure they want to know everything/one you ever did / lived / sleep with / ... in those 10 years, but how the heck does one remember 25 years? ::)

As Gothique11 said:

Quote from: gothique11 on March 14, 2010, 06:41:36 PM
Beyond the physical, I find that the way you carry yourself -- I guess, your aura -- makes a difference. It's hard to explain, but confidence in yourself as a woman makes a big difference......

I agree with her wholeheartedly and along with Rejennyrated's 'confidence' and knowing that you are a woman.  Will always help you no matter what.

Kind regards
Sarah B

+ family/"friends" from the past who may out you
+ various databases
+ court records (did you have a name change in a court?)
+ why you cannot have children (lying is of course possible)
+ why do you need to take hormones (lying is of course possible)
+ dilation (keeping secrets works in most places)
+ X-ray/ultrasound/gynecological exam
+ someone looking at your web browsers history ;)
etc