Susan's Place Transgender Resources

O.K., I don't get this. I pass the majority of the time but when I don't it is always with women. One example- over the weekend I was at the mechanic getting some work done. All the male employees (which is most of them) saw me as male, but the lady at the counter read me as female from the start. It got to where the male employees and customers started looking at her weird. Also, they mixed up my name with my ex so on their records that had me as (extreme male first name) and (my gender neutral real first name) as my middle name. Even then I still got the she's from her. I know it made her seem senile but still... WTH?

I've noticed that men read me as male the most often but women less. Any idea why that is? I know I should be happy that I'm being accepted into the male fold but I just can't figure this out about the women. What do you think they're seeing I'm missing? What is it that makes men see me as male right away? I would think if anything they'd be the ones picking up something odd or different (like mannerisms). Does anyone else have these experiences? It just baffled me.

The same thing happens to me, every male cashier I get is eager to say "man, sir, bud" and anything that obviously distinguishes me as male and female cashiers or something that are more likely to use neutral pronouns or none at all.

I don't know if it is that men are less observant in general and see one male characteristic and just stop looking and women are constantly studying people and "trying to figure you out"... I don't know. Or maybe it is easier for women to look at someone who is even slightly feminine and pick out those characteristics instinctively.

If you didn't figure it out from dating them, men are in some ways much better at lying than women are, particularly when it comes to saying what the other person wants to hear.

a) Of course I Love You
b) I will still respect you in the morning
c) Oh no, your sister is much too young (or mom too old)

But wouldn't most people care less about how to address someone they'll probably never see again? Also, if a guy sees someone who looks like a guy and acts like a guy but they think isn't a guy don't you think they wouldn't humor that? I would think they'd be more blunt and less likely to "suck up" to you.

I had the same thing. But now I seem to pass with everybody. Maybe it's because guys are more careful about misgendering another guy? You know, not wanting any trouble.

Quote from: Nero on March 30, 2010, 01:46:08 PMMaybe it's because guys are more careful about misgendering another guy? You know, not wanting any trouble.

True fact.

men are less observant, period

Yet as an MtF I used encounter the exact opposite, so I wonder if there is something more intriguing going on?

If I cast my mind back to my own dim and distant early days I seem to recall that I used to get "spotted" a lot more by men than by women. Most women have always seemed to accept me as one of them, even in my childhood when I was somewhat ambiguous.

So I do wonder if it is actually that the men are being rather "more" visually observant and are seeing the tiny little tells of physical masculinity, whilst the women are reading body language, psychological attitudes, the way you speak, levels of aggression, maybe even phereomones... I don't know - but I personally think it's not as simple as men being unobservant.

I think a man would consider it more offensive to be misgendered as a woman than as a man, so they go with male pronouns when unsure.  Women are more likely to have a neutral or opposite view, so they go the other way.  But, I'm just taking a shot in the dark here.

I'd say I pass equally to both genders... well, actually, come to think of it I do pass a lot with women. Guys are usually quiet.

Quote from: rejennyrated on March 31, 2010, 10:52:55 AMYet as an MtF I used encounter the exact opposite, so I wonder if there is something more intriguing going on?

I've wondered that with transladies. Very fascinating.

Quote from: rejennyrated on March 31, 2010, 10:52:55 AMSo I do wonder if it is actually that the men are being rather "more" visually observant and are seeing the tiny little tells of physical masculinity, whilst the women are reading body language, psychological attitudes, the way you speak, levels of aggression, maybe even phereomones... I don't know - but I personally think it's not as simple as men being unobservant.

I think there's some truth in this. I know the woman in my example called me a she before I even talked. However when I'm on the phone I'm pegged as male every single time (which is making work... interesting). Other times when someone seemed unsure after hearing me I'm pegged as male.

As for the psychological attitude I was simply in line and hadn't talked to her yet so I'm not sure what attitude I was emitting. As for level of aggression let's just say I've always been known to be an aggressive person. I've wondered pheromones too put wouldn't that change on T (or E)? Also, why do some women see me as female and others male with no consistancy?

So wouldn't this all point to one thing, we see in other's what we see in ourselves? Excuse any weird use of pronouns in this, I'm just trying to get it out in a way that seems clear.

Men see an ftm as a man more often than women do, where as the opposite happens on the opposite end of the spectrum most women see an mtf as a woman.

To me this would mean that men look at all of us and see the male traits. Meaning they look at an ftm and see our male traits so they take us as men too, but when they look at mtfs they still see the male traits and identify them as being male. And with women they see our female traits, so they look at an mtf and see another woman, but they also see a woman when they look at an ftm.

So since women are picking up on female traits and men are picking up on male traits, wouldn't they just be recognizing themselves (what they are) in another person?

If that made sense to anyone else it means throwing all of my consideration for feelings and proper word use out the window worked. Hell I may have even been proper in that... there is so much gender in this post I don't even know anymore :X lol

Quote from: Cowboi on April 01, 2010, 01:34:37 AMMen see an ftm as a man more often than women do, where as the opposite happens on the opposite end of the spectrum most women see an mtf as a woman.

I think this is completely right. I've even had conversations about this with other people. I'm still curious as to the how and why though.

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Post Merge: April 01, 2010, 12:12:23 PM

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Quote from: Cowboi on April 01, 2010, 01:34:37 AMSo since women are picking up on female traits and men are picking up on male traits, wouldn't they just be recognizing themselves (what they are) in another person

Good point, but how would you explain a very feminine acting biomale who is never mistaken for being female and visa-versa? They might be seen as gay or butch (which they might be) but are always seen as their identified gender.

Quote from: Radar on April 01, 2010, 12:07:05 PM
Good point, but how would you explain a very feminine acting biomale who is never mistaken for being female and visa-versa? They might be seen as gay or butch (which they might be) but are always seen as their identified gender.

No significant somatic irregularities or physical characteristics. Or very few, anyway.

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Post Merge: April 01, 2010, 03:42:04 PM

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Quote from: Cowboi on April 01, 2010, 01:34:37 AM
Men see an ftm as a man more often than women do, where as the opposite happens on the opposite end of the spectrum most women see an mtf as a woman.

If true, it could be good old-fashioned tribalism. We're looking for others like us, and we want to find others like us.

I pass very well but i look alot younger.
Im 18 and look about 14 lol, so women think 'aww bless' than anything else apart from the one in college.

I sort of think it has to do more with how society accepts trans people and so how people are outwardly acting, even if you're not passing.  I didn't even know FTM people existed until I was in college.  When you heard about transgendered people it was almost always men.  So I think, in my own generalized opinion, if a woman sees a transwoman and notices those male traits (adam's apple, build, etc), women tend to want to be more sympathetic and outwardly accept that transwoman, even if they inwardly don't.  But when a man sees a transwoman, it's some what insulting or questioning the very concept of masculinity, which they might take as a personal insult and thus be less accepting.  And it may be the opposite for a man looking at a transman.  The transman isn't really insulting the concept of masculinity-- mostly he's trying to conform to it, so the cismale might be more accepting of that.  Whereas the transman could be seen as questioning the concept of femininity, which might make a cisfemale feel challenged and defensive so they want to make that person into a woman.  Just a theory...

Quote from: Devin87 on April 01, 2010, 09:13:11 PM
The transman isn't really insulting the concept of masculinity-- mostly he's trying to conform to it, so the cismale might be more accepting of that.  Whereas the transman could be seen as questioning the concept of femininity, which might make a cisfemale feel challenged and defensive so they want to make that person into a woman.  Just a theory...

While I agree with most of what you said as being a really good theory this last part (I feel) hits a few bumps on the way lol.

The idea that cismen don't see transmen as insulting to the concept of masculinity is way off base, at least from every single conversation I have ever had with a cisman about the concept. I've had more men challenge my gender than any ciswoman or other gender combined. Most cismales seem to find it absurd that we consider ourselves male if we don't have a "penis" which is the strongest masculine trait to them. I've been disregarded by many cismales (both gay and straight) based upon the idea that I have a vagina, it has also been the central point of any argument or conversation I have ever had about being trans with a cismale. The cismales that do take me as male and respect me as male are only the ones who have no idea what is in my pants.

As for ciswomen, I have never once encountered a single one who felt I was insulting femininity in any way. More often than not they are far more accepting of me and find it easy to refer to me by male pronouns and my male name. However I completely agree with the idea that they are being sympathetic and outwardly accepting towards transwomen, I think that is far more common than we realize. From my experience though they show us transmen that some sympathy and acceptance when they do know how we identify. Of course there are always the people who are an exception to this, but most of them are close minded bigots lol.

Sorry Guys this got a bit rambling but I think it worth posting. For obvious reasons I have crossed the good taste boundary, but it was for explanation not for ignorance or insult

This is a weird one and I think we have to be careful of individual experience versus the society think.

I had a married couple who were very close friends. When I came out She was totally accepting but concerned about my future, keeps in contact, we go for dinner together etc. He couldn't accept it at all. "I always knew you were a poofter etc.

In general I do not get anymore 'insults' from males than females, I think that the general passivity of females help us accept differences, even if we may not tolerate them. Guys generally don't worry about differences, as long as it does not affect them, they don't care if you are Gay as long as you don't come on to them etc
I think in your particular case Radar it may be more sublime. Was she the only female? If so she is exerting her femininity in a male dominated workplace. Along the lines of ( and I apologise for the wrong pronouns etc, I'm coming from an angle) I'm female, 'she' is female but not real, so guys see how feminine I am; she is using Radar to present herself. I'm a real woman who deserves your male attention. In effect what she was doing was insulting you to glorify herself. A common, and possibly instinctive  tactic among women. We have a need to present ourselves as desirable, even if we are not at all interested in being desired at that time. Go to a function were all the girls are dressed up, the talk is only about how XYZ looked, what she wore, How her hair was etc. And of course ABC are doing the same. It's competition. Females instinctively compete for mates and a transman can be used in the competition. They can be used as examples of how really feminine  I/we are. That it is insulting is totally irrelevant; for example, take the attitude, silly bitch walked out of the loo with her skirt tucked into her knickers, didn't tell her though. I have been at parties and heard a girl say to a guy, 'You know she is on her period, take me home I'm free'. And worse.

In contrast, Transmen are no threat to 'males' so they are either irrelevant ie accepted, or vilified by the homophobic. 

Sorry again if anything in this post offended, I was trying to put observations down.


Cindy

Isn't life complicated?

I think Cowboi and Cindy have come the closest to the answer.

Personally I find myself quite confusing enough without worrying about anyone else. ;) There seems no doubt that I am female but I can't help wondering how on earth that happened ;D

Quote from: Cowboi on April 01, 2010, 10:43:50 PMAs for ciswomen, I have never once encountered a single one who felt I was insulting femininity in any way.

I've come across this quite a bit. I've noticed their biggest retaliation is using female pronouns and terms to death and emphasize them. >:(

Cindy, you're right in that she was the only female employee there. There was another one in the connected store but you barely saw her. Interesting.
Wow, women really say those things? Can you tell I never got involved in those conversations or just tuned them out. I'm sure the glazed look clued them in that I care less.

I really think that the bottom line regarding reading sex/gender is threat assessment; our brains are probably hardwired in certain ways that make women more likely to clock trans men (I talk a bit about trans women below). We all have basic survival equipment, but (generally speaking) women need to be vigilant about certain things that men don't, and vice versa.

In terms of survival and competition, unless he's desperate for a mate, a man doesn't lose anything by reading someone as male. And anyway, he's more likely to find a good mate through social contacts, not rape.

But we're talking about casual encounters here. If you're female, you're not a physical threat to him; if you might be male, you might be a threat. Since, in the short run, survival must take precedence over procreation, he's actually better off reading you as male in a chance meeting because you're a bigger threat to his physical well-being if you're another male. Not to mention that another male is also a threat to the first guy's access to the pool of available females.

On the other hand, in a similar casual encounter, a woman could have everything to lose if she should have read someone as male but didn't.

Some might argue that if all of this is true, why are men so threatened by trans women? I think some of that is social conditioning/homophobia, but the same survival rules apply. If he read you as female, he thinks you are not a threat and that he can not only dominate but procreate with you. If you "tricked" him, it's a double whammy. Not only can he not impregnate you, but you were a real threat that he didn't read properly.

If it's true that women are more likely than men to clock trans men, then that would explain a lot of things. Has anyone done a study to find out whether it is true?

Trans women are a different situation altogether. In the long run, it's safer for both men and women to clock a masculine-looking woman as male. I wonder if anyone has studied this as well.

On a more humorous note, one could easily argue that if men are not good at clocking trans women, it's because they're thinking with their junk instead of their brains. :laugh:

I doubt any studies have been done but I'd love to see any results. This is all so fascinating and aggravating.

Im pretty sure women make a bigger deal out of clocking trans women. From my experience men just joke about it but women get really bitchy. Sometimes women Ive seen even try to stop the public and yell out things when they spot me. When I look at these women they are usually ugly. Sexy women like me but get a little nervous and men are usually stand offish but more polite. I think some men Ive seen in Business suits feel for me and cool guys never hassle me. Sometimes I like just being different and Im a real transwoman so I can feel comfortable with myself. Allthough the boys around were I live keep saying things like 'Foxy and Hubba bubba and ->-bleeped-<- ->-bleeped-<- dirty slut' So its not all positive. I like being called Foxy though. Well I am kinda sexy for a Jedi. When I think about it most Jedi are sexy, except for Yoda he was ugly as. Poor little guy.

this IS fascinating. after thinking about it, the few times i've gotten "sir" lately have all been by males (which in itself is weird since i don't really attempt to pass).

it could be something my therapist suggested about my coworkers....they all call me miss (name), new girl, girly girl, lady, stupid stuff like that - she said maybe it was their way of making up for my own lack of femininity to not hurt my feelings, since most women wouldn't want to be considered male or masculine (at least in my area). probably not in radar's case, but it's an interesting thought

Quote from: DRAIN on April 03, 2010, 12:17:34 AMit could be something my therapist suggested about my coworkers....they all call me miss (name), new girl, girly girl, lady, stupid stuff like that - she said maybe it was their way of making up for my own lack of femininity to not hurt my feelings, since most women wouldn't want to be considered male or masculine (at least in my area). probably not in radar's case, but it's an interesting thought.

That's a good point too. I'm not out at work yet, but if they couldn't tell something was going on they'd have to be blind and deaf. Maybe they're emphasizing femininity to me (what's left anyway) to compensate for my masculinity. They don't mean any harm- they just don't know. Of course they may have always talked to me that way but it's becoming more and more obvious and insulting to me as time goes by.

Weeell, I think its pretty even for me. Ever since I started transition, I havent been called a girl by anyone that doesnt know me ;D ...except for some kid I met just the other day that seems to remember me from 7 or so years back :o haha, I had quite an interesting easter weekend. Was almost asked out by two girls at the park! :P

And here's a story from today that's the opposite of before. So I was shopping and at the register the lady wanted to see my credit card and driver's license (which they've never asked for before). My credit card has my first and last name but middle initial so no outing there, but my DL has my first, middle and last name whole. My first name is gender neutral but my middle name is so feminine it's pathetic. Not only that but my DL has a female photo and a nice big F on it. ::) So the lady looks at it for awhile (not just a glance) then says "thank you sir". :icon_blink: Now, this is a wonderful experience for me but... what?

If I may offer my 2 cents...

The thing is, you never have a clue, in a casual encounter, what the other person's background or experience level with things are. Having dating a transman, and also very butch lesbians... when I'm interacting with someone who is female bodied, but very masculine... I honestly never know which pronouns to use. The lesbians I've been with could/ have been offended by being read as male, regardless of how masculine they are. And knowing what I do of transguys, I would never want to insult one by negating his gender because of his physical body.

Prior to knowing a transguy, I would have only used female pronouns because my experiences taught me that by doing so, especially in the situation Radar described, would be a way of showing solidarity. A way to say " I see you, and I like you that way. Screw gender norms!" :)

I also wanted to add, that I think what Arch said was spot on. Survival will trump mating everytime.

To me, I think its because when guys see someone who is generaly male appearing they dont scrutinize them, because they arnt interested in sex with a dude most of the time. I get outed by gay men and women. In reverse I think its because a Man is more likely to eyeball a woman. Thats my theory. 

The cisgender women that hate on Transladies are jealous plain and simple. they were born female and yetthey are ugly in comparasin to a female individual who was born with the body of a man. To them it's insulting. Too d_ bad for them I say.

Not only are guys more likely to see me as a guy, I've had only guys come up to me on the street and actually ask me what gender I am. That seems like quite a strange distinction to me.

Quote from: jimmymot on May 01, 2010, 03:18:02 AM
Not only are guys more likely to see me as a guy, I've had only guys come up to me on the street and actually ask me what gender I am. That seems like quite a strange distinction to me.

theory: Women don't care, no interest; men are wanting to know if you are a threat or friend.

Quote from: jimmymot on May 01, 2010, 03:18:02 AM
Not only are guys more likely to see me as a guy, I've had only guys come up to me on the street and actually ask me what gender I am. That seems like quite a strange distinction to me.

You look like that movie actor from Xena! You're Joxer  the Mighty! OMG! :P (but younger)

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fthetorchonline.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2010%2F01%2Fgrudgeprea.jpg&hash=fb5820b222600da73a7779affdf3514790f8d021)

Quote from: DRAIN on April 03, 2010, 12:17:34 AM

it could be something my therapist suggested about my coworkers....they all call me miss (name), new girl, girly girl, lady, stupid stuff like that - she said maybe it was their way of making up for my own lack of femininity to not hurt my feelings, since most women wouldn't want to be considered male or masculine (at least in my area). probably not in radar's case, but it's an interesting thought

I've been getting ma'ams pretty much daily since I started to dress in a more masculine way. A few years ago when I was in my overcompensating stage of being uber femme, I got nothing. I know they're just trying to be polite, but every time I hear it I end up grumbling after they go away. I know I don't pass well anyway. I've got an hourglass figure even when bound. I walk all swishy. I talk with my hands. I tend to do all the things I'm told NOT to do if I want to look more boyish. Meh. Even after years of T I don't think I could act like anything not flamingly gay... As I am... very gay.

The point is, is that right now, dressing like a guy and looking more masculine than ever, it's like people hop up to the plate to say MISS, ma'am, she, etc. Whereas when I was what could be considered a hot girl (lol) I got nothing of the sort aside from on occasion creepy guys calling me honey and all that rot.

I realize that I used to do this though. If someone looked boyish but was obviously a girl to me, I would purposely say miss, ma'am, etc. thinking that they must be tired of getting pegged as the wrong gender. Yeah hi, I was in denial from puberty until about 23.

Feel kinda like a prick now though. Maybe this constant ma'aming is karma coming back to kick me in the bootay.

Quote from: LordKAT on May 01, 2010, 12:10:20 PM
theory: Women don't care, no interest; men are wanting to know if you are a threat or friend.

that sounds right to me.

ive found that women in general are less inclined to fuss about things. as a teen i was ridiculously exhibitionist about a lot of ridiculous things, fashion and fetish, and guys would make a big loud brouhaha about it whereas girls would snicker amongst themselves from afar.

Quote from: Myself on May 01, 2010, 12:36:54 PM
You look like that movie actor from Xena! You're Joxer  the Mighty! OMG! :P (but younger)

Ahaha. I've never seen that man before, but you are right. He looks like a caricature of me in 10 years. i wish i had that manly of a face!! lol

careful, joxer was the town idiot/jester.  Not something to aspire to.

Quote from: LordKAT on May 01, 2010, 09:20:32 PM
careful, joxer was the town idiot/jester.  Not something to aspire to.

i wouldn't mind the role whatsoever. i could play a mandolin.

I pass better in the country than in the city!  Ladies in country pubs refer to me as a "young gentleman", so I grunt a lot.  At car shows, the guys at the gate always assume I'm my friend's teenage son/brother and I get in free.

Quote from: jimmymot on May 01, 2010, 09:30:08 PM
i wouldn't mind the role whatsoever. i could play a mandolin.

cool!

Quote from: elvistears on May 01, 2010, 09:35:45 PM
I pass better in the country than in the city!  Ladies in country pubs refer to me as a "young gentleman", so I grunt a lot.  At car shows, the guys at the gate always assume I'm my friend's teenage son/brother and I get in free.

My daughter did that until she got f size chest.  Being 4'8" helps with that.

Quote from: LordKAT on May 01, 2010, 09:20:32 PMcareful, joxer was the town idiot/jester.  Not something to aspire to.

Yes, but he's Sam Raimi's brother so all is forgiven. :D

Update on work theory:
So when I told my manager last week she confirmed a few things with me. She said she (and probably other female employees) would emphasis some female terms since most women wouldn't want to be seen or compared to as male. Of course she also assumed something else was going on but didn't want to be rude until told differently.

Not everyone at work knows yet but she informed me few people will be surprised. I hope she's right. I have noticed that people will use the term "ladies" less when I'm included- but I'm sure the fact I ignore it helps too. So many clients are absolutely convinced I'm male over the phone that they can't be told differently so some of my co-workers have given up "correcting" them. It will be nice (yet weird) after the announcement. :D