Susan's Place Transgender Resources

Ive been thinking a lot lately about all the threads I see about passing, or the effects of HR,. As some of you know, I work in law enforcement. I encounter people everyday a lot of them in-fact. The variety of women I see makes me wonder at times, why we are so hard on ourselves. Take for instance a female who has been on Meth a very long time. Her body is wasted; her face is gaunt looking almost skeletal and may be covered with sores. Her cloths are ill-fitting do to massive weight loss. Where am I going with this? Simply that even in this sad state, she is read as female. How is this possible when she barely looks alive her ill-fitting cloths give no hint to her body shape removing that visual cue. Her clothing style may be androgynous looking or may be female or male styles. What do we have left then? Not physical size that was eliminated by the effect of the drug and hidden by the cloths. That leaves simply the face and the voice. Clue number one could be the hairstyle if her hair is short is she still read as female 90 percent of the time I would say yes.   That only leaves bone structure and the face itself.
Does this mean that the single best thing a trans woman can do to effect her pass ability is to concentrate on her facial features. 
Perhaps I've oversimplified a complex set of circumstances that go into pass ability or perhaps we overcomplicate it.
Jessica
Opinions welcome

I don't live in the trans community I've never encountered another MTF in my life thus if I am to transition I need to be accepted by everyone and I noticed as you did the two factors that decide whether anyone would accept me in day to day interactions and thus most important factors to me are.

1: Face
2: Voice

If I had those two attributes I know I could pass 99% of the time. And it baffles me why major governmental organisations and even the NHS put such incredible legal interest in genitals.

Without SRS I would just lead my live without sex (only potentially causing a problem if I fell in love), and I would even gladly live without boobs if I had those two attributes.

I think I have to agree 100% Jesse.  There is a woman who works at the local supermarket who is tall and very thin, no bust (mastectomies?), she has a thin face, but is still recognisable as a woman.

Having seen her close up at the checkout I would say it is her skin, lack of facial hair, and full head of hair, that make the difference even before she speaks.

If I can get the voice and the face right, especially my complexion, I think I will be well on the way.  A hair transplant would help if I don't want to wear a wig too. HRT with or without SRS or orchidectomy will change the skin, so that leaves the voice as the main thing to work on first.

True I will probably be thought of as some sort of butch lesbian bikie, but you can't have everything.

Voice, face and body language to an extent.

The real battle is to get yourself to the place where you truly believe that you *are* that which you present as.

Most trans people paradoxically fail because they try too hard to convince. They are afraid to break the rules. That marks them out.

I started to pass the day when I stopped trying and instead learned the trick of being passively female - by which I mean that I didn't do anything to reinforce the preception of my gender. Instead I just presented myself as I was, did what I wanted, and let others make up their own minds. Result pretty much everyone reads me as female, and because I NEVER correct anyone even the very few people who might get it wrong soon correct themselves. Thats just way it seems to work...

I don't agree with Pebbles about SRS - having a body which has the appropriate bits was overwealmingly important to me. Not least because I am a very sexual person and I couldn't contemplate the hell of not being able to share physical intimacy with someone else in the way I wanted to. But I guess we are all different... which is a good thing.

i totally agree with jenny that the battle is within you and once you feel and know in your bones that you are male / female the battle is almost over.

it is a package however and some will never pass without surgery and some will that is what makes the journey exciting that we are all so individual.

see now jenny has added something to the equation body language/mannerisms if that same woman in my example is found unconscious hence no manerisms or body language is she still read as female the answer is yes she is so the torpedo sinks that addition.  to me that equates manerisms and body language-zero effect on passability. and voice is removed in same situation. so voice -zero effect on passability though a male voice would certainly go against your passability as would overly male manerisms but i think if the face is female it would negate the latter pretty efficiantly hence the term tom boys.
jessica

Quote from: Vanna on April 29, 2010, 05:51:12 AM
i totally agree with jenny that the battle is within you and once you feel and know in your bones that you are male / female the battle is almost over.

it is a package however and some will never pass without surgery and some will that is what makes the journey exciting that we are all so individual.

Absolutely - which I had my SRS at the earliest possible moment. I also had the benefit of having come out as a very young child.

My point is that just as some people can pass before having it, there are sadly others who can't even after they have had it AND FFS and BA and CTA and whatever else simply because their self belief simply isn't there. They think that it is the surgery that will MAKE them female - when actually all surgery does is make you look like what you alread are...

Quote from: jesse on April 29, 2010, 06:03:17 AM
see now jenny has added something to the equation body language/mannerisms if that same woman in my example is found unconscious hence no manerisms or body language is she still read as female the answer is yes she is so the torpedo sinks that addition.  to me that equates manerisms and body language-zero effect on passability. and voice is removed in same situation. so voice -zero effect on passability though a male voice would certainly go against your passability as would overly male manerisms but i think if the face is female it would negate the latter pretty efficiantly hence the term tom boys.
jessica

True - but even when you are unconcious you do have an aura, which is a kind of body language of it's own.

That's kind of what I mean by being passively female - if you look at me as a piece of meat nd disect my physical attributes - I have some male attributes - for example slightly heavier build to my torso... and perhaps a few minor androgynous facial attributes...

But I also have small hands, small feet, no adams apple, a broadly female fat distribution, some suggestion of hips, and of course ostensibly female genitalia - but that last point isn't seen unless I was nude.

Thing is, with exception to the huge bust and the female naughty bits I had all those same attributes before I started... and yet when I did my reparative therapy I was accpeted as male most of the time.

So there is something more involved - although I will agree that it is difficult to pin down.

ok so i see jenns point and i have to agree that your confidence in your gender probably does go along way to helping you pass. hmmm have to think alittle more on this point
jessica

Quote from: jesse on April 29, 2010, 06:11:27 AM
ok so i see jenns point and i have to agree that your confidence in your gender probably does go along way to helping you pass. hmmm have to think alittle more on this point
jessica

Yep - that's it - get the self belief - and then you can get away with murder! (well in gender terms anyway) - because somehow even when you do boy things - you will then do them in a *girl* way - that the nearest I can come to expaining.

I suppose we are really talking about a combination of things.  In summary then -
Body language and posture will be visible at a distance, even before the face is visible, or the voice heard.

Voice is a give away on the phone, but can be changed with practice.

Hair, unless we are very fortunate is something that we have to counter with a transplant, wig or some other means, if it has started to go.

With regard to the face I think it is a combination of bone structure and sub-cutaneous fat, as well as lack of hair.  FFS will be dependant on what you start with I guess, so results will vary.
Laser and electrolysis can remove the facial hair, so that leaves a combination of HRT and makeup expertise to change the apparent softness of the facial features. 

Does that sound reasonable? Others have been doing this a lot longer than I have, so any advice is very gratefully acepted.

Quote from: justmeinoz on April 29, 2010, 06:22:50 AM
I suppose we are really talking about a combination of things.  In summary then -
Body language and posture will be visible at a distance, even before the face is visible, or the voice heard.

Voice is a give away on the phone, but can be changed with practice.

Hair, unless we are very fortunate is something that we have to counter with a transplant, wig or some other means, if it has started to go.

With regard to the face I think it is a combination of bone structure and sub-cutaneous fat, as well as lack of hair.  FFS will be dependant on what you start with I guess, so results will vary.
Laser and electrolysis can remove the facial hair, so that leaves a combination of HRT and makeup expertise to change the apparent softness of the facial features. 

Does that sound reasonable? Others have been doing this a lot longer than I have, so any advice is very gratefully acepted.

The hair yes - it's not impossible, but difficult to be a woman with a receding hairline.

Facial hair absolutely 100.0% - you have to have electrolysis or laser before you can even think about thinking about thinking about passing.

FFS - ONLY if absolutely needed. Use your eyes - lots of women have androgynous faces - otherwise I wouldn't get away with mine so easily. Yes if you have a huge square chin and/or a massive brow then maybe it's worth it. But otherwise no.

Voice is important. Not just just pitch but intonation and *style* of speech. By that I don't mean you have to be all flowery and prissy - just that women tend to use more animation when they speak.

But the biggest thing is SELF BELIEF. If you lack that all the rest will be futile.

i reach this conclusion if the face structure is good along with the details implied by that statement you will pass until the combined weight of negatives results in us getting read as male for instance you look female but your posture and manerisms =male -1 point you speak and voice is male -1 point  your self confidence is low in your own passability - coupe de grace in others eyes = male cross dressor or whatever other term they want to apply as we have just been read.

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Post Merge: April 29, 2010, 06:41:48 AM

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thanks for playing along with me i like to anaylize stuff so it helps me to progress
jessica

Quote from: rejennyrated on April 29, 2010, 05:47:10 AMThe real battle is to get yourself to the place where you truly believe that you *are* that which you present as.

THAT is the ONLY difference between other women and TG women - other women KNOW who/what they are and never question it.

I had the good fortune to have SRS & transition back in 1974 and was just so naive that I never doubted  that I was just another girl. That confidence carries more weight than anyone recognizes!

I think face means much more than most people let on. Everyone checks out the face even if it is only for a few seconds. I think it has to do with bone structure of the face. Unfortunately, that is hard or impossible to change for FTM.

I think it depends on who is looking as I get taken for woman most of the time but then some people make it perfectly obvious that they read me straight away.  Obviously teenage girls read me while I'm invisible to teenage boys.  I really don't know what it is that says 'male' in my case.

Ok my 2 cents.

Face.
Voice.
Attitude.

And by attitude I mean to own the fact you are your true gender.  One has to truly own the fact that you are your gender.

I guess I'll just chip in and agree with what is being said here.. ;)

...just let's not forget the free facial feminsing effect of "a smile"  ;D ;D ;D

Chrissty

Quote from: rejennyrated on April 29, 2010, 06:31:51 AM
Facial hair absolutely 100.0% - you have to have electrolysis or laser before you can even think about thinking about thinking about passing.

Completely this...as much as I hate having to do boy mode outside the comfort of my house...I know I have no chance of passing with the 5 o'clock shadow of doom. Waiting is a pain in the proverbial....grrrrrr.

Quote from: rejennyrated on April 29, 2010, 06:31:51 AM
Voice is important. Not just just pitch but intonation and *style* of speech. By that I don't mean you have to be all flowery and prissy - just that women tend to use more animation when they speak.

But the biggest thing is SELF BELIEF. If you lack that all the rest will be futile.

I'd say a lot of the voice is down to confidence as well...the actual control techniques are simple, i'd got to a point where I could raise the pitch and resonance into a female range in a couple of weeks...however I still thought it was just a high pitched male voice. However speaking to Jenny last sunday and receiving a huge, huge, huge compliment in regards to my voice it really does sound female to me, so being confident in yourself is easily your biggest advantage when it comes to passing.

P.S Jenny is awesome ;D

1. Voice
2. Face, but almost as equal as the voice
3. Hips larger than shoulders
4. Proportional body shapes for a typical female
5. Long hair, fashion, mannerisms

In that order

I don't believe in auras/behavior that much, since I can pretend I am a woman so much till my heart screams it but the truth is people will read me as a male. Masculine women are still read as women, but read as lesbians, still their mannerisms are male and yet most people read them as a female because they are GG. It's not their aura.

nah it's just the face alone...if they can't see your face then they'll check out your hair and body shape...voice is only if you start speaking (duhhhh) and mannerism only when you start moving (duhhh x2)....

Quote from: Rhalkos on May 01, 2010, 02:43:33 AM
Get DD boobs.
No one will ever look at your face or listen to your voice.  ;D

Done that - Mine are F - trouble is it does get tiresome always wanting to say to men "I think you'll find I'm a foot taller than that!"

Quote from: rejennyrated on May 01, 2010, 04:42:29 AM
Done that - Mine are F - trouble is it does get tiresome always wanting to say to men "I think you'll find I'm a foot taller than that!"

carry an umbrella or something similar so you can wack them under the chin.

"eyes up man...and straighten that back...slouching is so unbecoming."

My opinion on passing.

1. Face (and body shape to a large degree)
2. Voice

Voice being only ever so slightly behind 1.

And uhh, for the most part that's it. There's other stuff that helps, but it pretty much boils down to just that.

I don't believe in any of this 'attitude' and 'mannerisms' stuff. Everyone else is free of course to believe whatever they like, but in my opinion, if you sound male (which is like 90% resonance and 10% pitch as far as importance), you'll be read as male, pretty much no matter how you look.


The way I see it, it kinda works out like this.

If a male suddenly woke up looking like Jennifer Aniston, all the masculine attitude and voice mannerisms and 'way of walking' in the WORLD isn't going to get them read as male.

::)

Quote from: Chrissty on April 30, 2010, 05:59:49 AM
...just let's not forget the free facial feminsing effect of "a smile"  ;D ;D ;D

This is actually one of the absolute most important things you can do to pass. Once I moved back home from living life across the country for a half a year, and broke out of my shell, I started practicing smiling and I started passing more often (having lived my teenage years being accidentally clocked as a girl on and off.) Even several months into HRT, living full time as a girl, I've trained myself to default my facial muscles into a partial smile because it SERIOUSLY pumps your cheeks up and out. This is why people say women are beautiful when they smile - the full cheeks are what make girls look female.

Quote from: Megan on April 30, 2010, 02:55:10 PM
1. Voice
2. Face, but almost as equal as the voice
3. Hips larger than shoulders
4. Proportional body shapes for a typical female
5. Long hair, fashion, mannerisms

In that order

I don't believe in auras/behavior that much, since I can pretend I am a woman so much till my heart screams it but the truth is people will read me as a male. Masculine women are still read as women, but read as lesbians, still their mannerisms are male and yet most people read them as a female because they are GG. It's not their aura.

I can't possibly disagree with you more. You're too fixated on feminine perfection.

When I first started, people told me things like "people see through to the real you on the inside." And I was like, "Bull->-bleeped-<-, they're stupid and blind, I don't look anything like a girl." That's certainly what my family and friends told me in the beginning...

The thing is, your 'aura' IS how you present yourself. It's in the words you use. Where and how you stand, how you move your body, or don't move it, your inflection, your physical reactions to the other person, all of that, your clothes, and more come together to be your presence, and that's the package that has to pass.

You do not need breasts, or hips, or curves, to pass as a woman. Believe me, I've done it plenty. I answered the door once without a shirt on and completely freaked the random guy out because he thought I was a topless chick, even though I hadn't started breast growth. And because of a birth defect with my spine, I wouldn't have hips or curves even if I were born with a vagina. And even with how much I hate my body, everyone wants a piece of it or tells me how great I look, because I'm not fat. If you're thin or even average, people are going to find you more attractive and acceptable just because you're more appealing than others.

To me:

Your height is a multiplier on all other factors, which cannot be changed. If you are 5'3, like I am, it's very easy to pass. If you are 6', it's hard. If you are average female height or less for your area, you get an automatic easy ride. There are very tall naturally born women, but you *know* they hear ->-bleeped-<- jokes behind their backs more than once in their life. The plight of being a tall woman in our society is an issue in and of itself.


You need to not have a shadow, because that is a key indicator for people regardless of any other circumstances. Some stubble will not actually make much of a difference, as some women, especially non-whites, will have upper lip hair - but if it's everywhere, you're running a big risk of being outed. A large adam's apple likewise will give you away immediately. Women DO have cartilage growths, and some women do have small adam's apples, so do not obsess over ones that are not prominent, but some are obviously male.

Your mannerisms, walk, what you say, how you say it, and so on. If you are naturally dainty and have an expressive personality - and I mean genuine behavior, not flamboyance, then you will pass easier as a female. The more I accidentally passed, the more confidence I had in expressing myself the way I really wanted to, which in turn made me pass more and so on. Also, when you get to the point of confidently dressing female, your clothing helps, too. I started my transition by wearing womens slacks/jeans with button down blouses and T shirts. I picked up tank tops eventually. A button down shirt throws some ambiguity out there, but it was my safety net in case I didn't pass - whereas if you're wearing an unquestionably female top like a lacy cami, it might help push you into the female range, or it might bomb horribly if you get clocked.*

A clearly male voice is a dealbreaker once you open your mouth, but if you stop to listen, you may be surprised at how deep a lot of womens' voices are. You can always cough a lot and blow your nose and pretend you've got a horrible cold or allergies in a pinch.


*Not to say that all women have a certain personality type, but, it's the whole package that makes transition work or not work. If you have a tomboy personality, and a buzzed head, and wear baggy clothes, then until your face grows female cheeks, you'll look like a guy, and then you'll be clocked as a dyke. But GG (or GM) have the confidence to be different, if they are different.

I'm going to just put out there the idea that if you go into a place, presenting clearly female and wearing the right clothes (not big shoulderpads or ruffles if you have big shoulders, an A line skirt instead of a pencil skirt, using a belt/empire waist properly, wearing the proper shoes for your outfit, and in general dressing age appropriate; ie blending in) and none of your features are particularly special, you're going to pass just fine. Now if you go in and you are timid, or shy, or dressed inappropriately for the place or your age, or other factors that make people scrutinize you and focus on you; you leave them wondering and they start looking at every little clue to find an answer, then you're going to have a worse time.

I'd say Jesse's meth whores pass as women more from the absence of male traits.

Thank you Autumn - for saying so eloquently what I wanted to say but didn't.

And Megan - Even if I discount my openly transgender childhood entirely I've been at this game for about 30+ years I do KNOW what works and what doesn't from decades of experience of living working and being accepted as a woman, whereas you, with all respect still have a considerable learning curve to go up.

Now you are naturally quite at liberty to ignore those of us who have been at this for so many years. Maybe you think we are all deluding ourselves and we are obvious as heck - men in dresses or whatever, and if that was your opinion then you would of course be entirely entitled to it. I wouldn't even bother to argue, but I really and honestly don't think we are. Most of us have got where we got to by years of painful trial and error. All we want to do here is help you short circuit that learning process so that you don't have to repeat it.

Yes as it happens I do have big boobs and a good voice. Yes my face is at very least androgynous - at any rate it isn't downright male. But trust me I have seen people who are WAY better looking than me with way better figures fail miserably to pass, and yet I manage it pretty much entirely. So I'm sorry but from my experience you really are somewhat mistaken on this, and for your own sake I feel that you need to re-assess your view of this whole thing or you may end up bitterly disappointed.

This isn't meant to be unkind or any sort of cirticism - we are all in entitled to an opinion, and we all have to learn as we go along and there is always a possibility that those of us who have done 10, 20 and 30 years are wrong... but I really think it is more likely that we are right.

You can cover a sort of deep voice by claiming to have been a long time smoker also.

"I've been so much happier now that I'm on the patch!*"

*estrogen


Actually, back in late December, I'd had a respiratory infection for over a month and was visiting a friend. Her roommate had only met me while I was sick and said "Autumn, I just love your voice. I don't know if you used to smoke, or be a man, or whatever, but it's great. You're like doctor girlfriend."

I glared at him and said it was the cold. I couldn't help but laugh then, and laugh now.

Quote from: Autumn on May 01, 2010, 06:28:18 AM
I'm going to just put out there the idea that if you go into a place, presenting clearly female and wearing the right clothes (not big shoulderpads or ruffles if you have big shoulders, an A line skirt instead of a pencil skirt, using a belt/empire waist properly, wearing the proper shoes for your outfit, and in general dressing age appropriate; ie blending in) and none of your features are particularly special, you're going to pass just fine.

Autumn, I think you're absolutely right on that point.

At over six feet and more than 200 pounds, I never would have expected to pass.  But, by following the same common sense rules you've outlined, I've never had the slightest problem.  I don't consider myself to be particularly "feminine", but I know people who are not aware that I'm transgender.

Quote from: LordKAT on April 29, 2010, 10:30:25 AM
I think face means much more than most people let on. Everyone checks out the face even if it is only for a few seconds. I think it has to do with bone structure of the face. Unfortunately, that is hard or impossible to change for FTM.

Unless you get FMS...but a deep voice goes a long way toward negating delicate facial features. That's why I don't understand a few MTFs that I've met who could "pass" if only they would work on their voices. They have the clothes, the makeup, the hair, the mannerisms...and they speak in their normal "male" voices and complain that nobody sees them as women. I know it sucks; we should be accepted no matter what. But at least try.

Can even a meth addict who has wasted away have a few somatic cues besides face and voice that add up to "female" in the eye of the beholder?

Quote from: Arch on May 01, 2010, 02:05:05 PM
Unless you get FMS...but a deep voice goes a long way toward negating delicate facial features. That's why I don't understand a few MTFs that I've met who could "pass" if only they would work on their voices. They have the clothes, the makeup, the hair, the mannerisms...and they speak in their normal "male" voices and complain that nobody sees them as women. I know it sucks; we should be accepted no matter what. But at least try.

Can even a meth addict who has wasted away have a few somatic cues besides face and voice that add up to "female" in the eye of the beholder?

I'll agree that voice can be a clincher or out you, especially if it is far to the male or female end. The other nuances are used more when face or voice are not clear which is why we need to understand and use that more than the cis people do.

Quote from: Ashley4214 on May 01, 2010, 06:17:40 AMI don't believe in any of this 'attitude' and 'mannerisms' stuff. Everyone else is free of course to believe whatever they like, but in my opinion, if you sound male (which is like 90% resonance and 10% pitch as far as importance), you'll be read as male, pretty much no matter how you look.

I agree that a male voice is almost always going to get you read as male, at least by strangers. But that doesn't mean that other factors don't exist.

I have a friend who is so pretty and feminine. When I first met her, she had a nice female voice, a lovely face, someone to help her with her makeup and clothes...but she was unsure of herself. She was self-conscious. And she was getting clocked very frequently. Six months later, she looks the same except that her hair is longer and she does her own makeup and clothes. But she's comfortable and confident in her femaleness. She hardly gets clocked at all.

Decades before I transitioned, I had long hair and fairly delicate facial features, and of course the chest. I was trying hard to fit in, be a girl. But I still had a secret boy life in my head, and I used to have a lot of very masculine mannerisms. End result: sometimes I still spooked women in the ladies' restroom. It didn't happen to anyone else I knew. (Not to mention that some people were still convinced that I was a lesbian.) If it wasn't body language and attitude, I don't know what it was. I would be curious to hear your take on it.

Today I did an experiment. If I walk around not saying anything with sunglasses on, I pass way more as male. But who wants to do that all the time right? I think its the brow ridge, and voice really. Which facail bones are difficult to alter. I've heard of facial structure changing on T. Does HR for Trans women do anything?

It would be impossible for me to pass 100% even if I would undergo HRT and SRS. Many people recognize me as woman when they see my body whether I have boobs or not, but face and voice make it clear that I am a biological man. While returning home from Japan 2 days ago, in the airplane, the attendant called me as sir without hesitation after hearing my voice.

I also see contrasts between my first son and little daughter. A funny thing was that, when my friend had his first daughter and I had my first son about 13 years ago. many people used to recognize my first son as a girl while his daughter as a boy. Nevertheless, to my eyes, there are clear differences in my son and daughter. For example, my daughter has far longer eyelashes than my son, although my son also has relatively longer eyelashes. In personality, my daughter is more aggressive than my son.

Smiling can make me look more feminine. People used to say that I smile like a woman.

https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php?action=mgallery;sa=item;id=2078 (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php?action=mgallery;sa=item;id=2078)

And, wearing lipstick helps me pass as a woman, as I did not underwent HRT. Long hair does not matter so much, as nowadays many men also very long hair. But, I will have longer hair again, reaching to my waist.

Barbie~~

thanks everybody for your imput it gives me stuff to think about lol
jessica

Quote from: Arch on May 01, 2010, 02:19:07 PM
Decades before I transitioned, I had long hair and fairly delicate facial features, and of course the chest. I was trying hard to fit in, be a girl. But I still had a secret boy life in my head, and I used to have a lot of very masculine mannerisms. End result: sometimes I still spooked women in the ladies' restroom. It didn't happen to anyone else I knew. (Not to mention that some people were still convinced that I was a lesbian.) If it wasn't body language and attitude, I don't know what it was. I would be curious to hear your take on it.

Me too. Long hair, androgynous socially-acceptable-for-women clothes, and I've often had awkward moments in the restroom/locker rooms because women took me for male out of the corner of their eye.

And it's not just vulnerable situations either. When I try to present as female in groups of women, I'm pretty much universally turned into a social outcast. I'm neither liked nor trusted. That's improved markedly since I stopped pretending to be one of them - for the first time in my life, women have started to be friendly with me. Even strangers.

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Post Merge: May 04, 2010, 03:28:45 AM

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Quote from: GothTranzboi on May 01, 2010, 03:08:29 PM
Today I did an experiment. If I walk around not saying anything with sunglasses on, I pass way more as male. But who wants to do that all the time right? I think its the brow ridge, and voice really. Which facail bones are difficult to alter. I've heard of facial structure changing on T.

For us, what changes most is facial musculature and fat distribution. We'll probably never have very wide square jaws because the jaw is bone, but lots of guys have narrower jaws. We do get an increase in jaw definition/reduction in puffiness from the fat redistribution, and the musculature changes can give us a more square look. And facial hair or shadow pretty much overrides most facial shape cues, which is why electrolysis/laser is trans women's usual first step.

ah ok. Thank you for clarifing that for me. As for facial hair...I already deal with that, but what used to be something had to shave off is something I can enjoy now lol.

Quote from: Autumn on May 01, 2010, 06:28:18 AMI'm going to just put out there the idea that if you go into a place, presenting clearly female and wearing the right clothes (not big shoulderpads or ruffles if you have big shoulders, an A line skirt instead of a pencil skirt, using a belt/empire waist properly, wearing the proper shoes for your outfit, and in general dressing age appropriate; ie blending in) and none of your features are particularly special, you're going to pass just fine. Now if you go in and you are timid, or shy, or dressed inappropriately for the place or your age, or other factors that make people scrutinize you and focus on you; you leave them wondering and they start looking at every little clue to find an answer, then you're going to have a worse time.

I'd say Jesse's meth whores pass as women more from the absence of male traits.

I totally agree with this assessment. After a while you don't think or worry about "passing" anymore, it seems to eventually become a non-issue. While my long hair and breasts (as small as they are) may play a part in the fact that I don't have any issues in this regard, as I said I don't worry about it anymore either. I have no problems carrying on conversations with perfect strangers in the ladies room, or walking past a group of high school girls in the mall. I hold my head high, look people squarely in the eye, and smile. :)

Another thing that helps- When walking, pretend you have a string tied to the top of your head and it's tugging you slightly upwards. Back straight, shoulders down and back, tummy in and up, head held high and own the ground you're standing (or sitting) on. When you know who you are on the inside and are confident and rock-solid in that, then who you are on the outside will naturally follow, and you'll stop worrying (or caring) about "passing".

actually i think i have to agree with autumns assesment perhaps the reason the person in my initial post passes is the complete absence of any male gender marker so by default the observer assigns the female gender. I wonder why that is though since it would have to be universal in the way that everyone does the same thing. is it simply erroring in favor of the obvious or is something more because even females will do that and 99 percent of the time it is a correct call i would think. So in the absence of any male markers such as voice facial structure actions or stance then everyone should pass as female if this thought pattern is continued out to its conclusion
such fun lol
jessica

I learned  dogs to be male and cats to be female. I think that way even now. I wonder if some people default people to one or the other not necessarily female. I also wonder if people default people to their own sex or the opposite or if it matters.

Well, female is sort of the default state of humans. If you imagine someone who's truly physically androgynous, with neither male nor female secondary sex characteristics or pubertal changes - a prepubescent child, essentially, but grown to adult size - that person would be read as female unless sie made an effort to be read as male, as young boys do by conforming to male social norms of dress and appearance.

The default characteristics of voice, skin, face shape, and most relevant bone structures other than the hips are female-type. Testosterone modifies them to male-type, which is why FTMs look like young boys and get such good results (gaining masculine characteristics) from T, and why MTFs often perceive their transitions largely as reversing the effects of puberty.

The only problem with that theory is I don't look young, the grey hair gives me away. It does cause some people to question my light facial hair but I just admit to hormones for a lack of T and that it was discovered later than ideal.

Power of human eyes and brain devoted to vision are staggering. We are a very much vision bound species. Our ability to decipher facial details is astonishing and goes deeper than skin deep. In fact we are able by default to subconsciously read a state of physical/mental health and genetic predisposition. Our evolution is to thank for such abilities much in our Transgender disappointment. Jesse, you are absolutely correct in assessment you have concluded. Female is read female because of the package of all necessary characteristics fitting in as a whole. Ability to decipher facial character makes for the face being most important in passability, however if the rest of the package does not conform to the first observation, observer will question immediately validity of the first assessment, picking apart all aspects. "Hence a double stair"!  Observer looks onto a good looking TG, brain assesses input, makes assumption of interest, if the look is passable but not interesting observer goes on, if the interest arises the second deeper assessment will follow.
Mannerism is important but if mannerism has no backing in facial and body geometry it will not make you pass.
I am gravely disappointed for my self starting transition so late and have come to the conclusion that full passability is mostly reserved for those young ones brave and determined. Some of us older ones posses "I don't care what others say" attitude which feels like passability is in the attitude, but it is just wishful thinking on their part. I believe, at least to me, passability involves fooling someone elses powerful visual brain to read you as female when you are not( genetically that is). If passability was ego centered, meaning, we needed to fool our selves in believing we are females, we wouldn't have this discussion in the first place. It all comes down to the most basic and eons old human need, To belong! To be accepted as you are, in our case we have to swim against the current of human basic knowledge and validate to the world that we are as normal as anyone out there, guess what?     

I have to disagree Alexia.  I am older and I am a woman, I am not fooling myself.  However, like many women, I sometimes do not think I am very pretty.  But I am still a woman.  And I really don't care what others think.

Hi Janet, you are a babe and I did not intend to make an argument against our believe of who we are. We posses woman brain or what ever it is that makes one feel female. We also posses male body and chemistry which we have decided to alter to fit our self image. My argument is strictly for visual passability, and I do mean visual presentation which onlooker sees and makes a judgment as to assigning gender. Every one does make such assessment, it is an automatic survival based feature to help us spread joy of life upon the world :-) Within the confines of this reflex extreme details are assessed and answer is presented. What I am merely driving at is that for most of us older transformers time has done its inevitable damage and regardless of mannerism, sensuality and high heels :-) we will be read as "something doesn't make sense here" picture. Now, some may be fortunate to simply by chance arrive at full package but I would suspect there aren't many if any. However from your recent peaks, as I have said before, you are turning very much a passable female and to me that is a beauty. On the other hand I know myself that some pictures show me very well and then are those which went directly to the shredder. The whole package! that is where we fail and must make up with exaggerated mannerisms or whatever. And then there is, once again, who cares attitude which sort of free us of pressure but deep down beneath all the layers, beneath conscious thought and proudness of who we are lie the want to be finally looked upon without second guess, without further clarification, to be looked at as real human being and woman at that!

Well thank you Alexia.  :icon_redface:  I don't wish to turn this into a long running argument ether.

And yes there will always be "there is something not quite right here" no matter how much we spent on repairing the damage.  But how many natal women give off the same signals?  We just need to go forward and be as happy as we can be.

We may not get to the point where the 'attitude' is not required, but we will always have it because it is important to us to remain sane.

But the way, I think that your a hottie.  ;)

Quote from: Valeriedances on May 05, 2010, 07:47:06 PMI gently disagree about age being an impossible barrier in the ability to pass, be seen, live as female. I do agree that it is more unusual, rare even? ...but not impossible. I started transition at 48 and just completed it at age 52. I am never questioned nor do I receive strange looks or am ever sirred. Unless people are just being kind to me, but I do not believe that is the case. I do have a few questionable markers, my jaw should be a little narrower and my eyes are a little deep, but I do okay and get my share of male attention ...the good kind.

I completely agree with Valerie, and I'm never questioned either. In fact in the last 2 days while getting my pre-op tests done I was asked if I might be pregnant by an X-ray technician, and if I wanted a pap smear with my physical by a nurse in my own doctor's office. It is a non-issue to me, and not because it's ever a problem. I understand it as it is used here, but I've come to think the whole concept of "passing" implies that I'm trying fool others into thinking I'm something that I'm not. I know who I am and I act accordingly. Non-issue.

facial features can be  noticed with skin texture and how you are preceived . For some it is harder to pass as a female. That's why help is there for information on makeup,voice lessions,etc... to those whom seek to pass as females. Really gratful that such sites as susan's place is here.

OK, you girls do prove a point by your own example. If in fact you do look like your avatars from every angle, I would never suspect you not being a woman. I on the other hand have put the best face forward, so truly I am not all that appears but simply one picture that symbolizes my self. In the past I have also experienced similar attitude in people I have met and they simply were not aware of the surrounding reality. I don't know where I am going with this, it is my frustrations which nitpick every detail and analyze every gesture. I guess I am not comfortable with my self yet, but one thing for sure, I love you all as you are and point of my discussion here is just to find out the absolute truth and reassurance that I also can achieve the impossible.

well we are women, and actually the fact that I don't have problems with being accepted as such still amazes and amuses me sometimes, as in the 2 incidents I mentioned above. I just think we need another word that is less connotative of active deception, perhaps a passive (no pun intended lol) word like "accepted"- instead of talking about passing, say accepted or not accepted. But I think the term "passing" is very deeply rooted and not likely to change.

I passed all my classes in school just fine and that was very real. At least to the people who care to read them.

Quote from: alexia elliot on May 06, 2010, 10:21:56 AM
OK, you girls do prove a point by your own example. If in fact you do look like your avatars from every angle, I would never suspect you not being a woman. I on the other hand have put the best face forward, so truly I am not all that appears but simply one picture that symbolizes my self. In the past I have also experienced similar attitude in people I have met and they simply were not aware of the surrounding reality. I don't know where I am going with this, it is my frustrations which nitpick every detail and analyze every gesture. I guess I am not comfortable with my self yet, but one thing for sure, I love you all as you are and point of my discussion here is just to find out the absolute truth and reassurance that I also can achieve the impossible.

Ok I did have SRS at 24 - which you might say was young, but in fact most of the damage that time was going to do to me had already happened by that age as I was fully adult by several years. I'm certainly not the best looking woman in the world but I do make the grade.

In actual fact I think it's often mre difficult for us at a younger age because at that point in your life boys are looking at you in a very sexual way and often if there are any tiny flaws they will find them. I hardly ever got spotted back then but if anything as I have aged I had felt less vulnerable to that possibility.

There are several of the older girls on here who manage a far better appearance than I do, probably partly because they have taken care of themselves where I have just relaxed and let it all go where it will. So I'm going to disagree on looks alone.

Where I perhaps do have a slight advantage over some is in my voice - which because I grew up openly androgynous never got trained to male vocal manerisms. I think I have posted enough different photos and avatars (all me) on here over the years to prove that my appearance is pretty ok seen from any angle. But overall I do think that you underestimate what many of the older transitioners can also achieve. Many of them have looks that I envy.

I think I completely agree with this, which is why if I were to ever have any surgery, which is unlikely, I would just do FFS