Susan's Place Transgender Resources

I've always thought that MTFs are a lot prettier than biological girls. I mean, obviously some girls are prettier than others, that's just how life works. It just seems to me that MTFs have this sort of internal beauty that radiates from them, making them more attractive... I've also found that I find trans supermodels way more attractive than biologically female models..

Is it just me? My best friend seems to disagree with me, but he's asexual so I wonder what it is that makes me feel this way.

It really annoys me when I hear people saying negative things about MTFs, or pick on someone for not passing well enough, because I just don't get why people don't see whatever it is I'm seeing.

Does anyone else feel the same way?

I agree with the part about other people not seeing the way that I do but trans or not is not the issue with me.

I don't know, MTFs are just women to me as far as that goes.

Quote from: SilverFang on May 09, 2010, 04:46:17 AM
I don't know, MTFs are just women to me as far as that goes.

Agreed, i tend to find it difficult to picture who they were before when their talking about the past.

I agree that (postop for me) MtF's have a certain mysterious sexual allure - then again as I am technically one myself and I chose one as my partner and in preference to a choice of cis suitors I would say that wouldn't I? But I agree with the others that singling us out is rather dangerous ground.

I also would caution the OP in not making the mistake of assuming that we all seek to be beautiful. There is nothing I would hate more than being some sort of supermodel style bimbo. After living most of my life inclduing a large part of my childhood this way I pass just fine. It took SRS to get the body I wanted, but I am deliberately a tomboy type, and that's what I pass as.

I don't seem to get any adverse reactions but if someone mistakenly thought they could insult me by calling me a man they would end up being sadly dissappointed. While I would disagree with the accuracy of their chosen epithet I honestly couldn't care less. Indeed the shallowness of such thinking positively amuses me.

I am that which I am.

Jenny x.

Quote from: rejennyrated on May 09, 2010, 05:09:04 AM
...
I also would caution the OP in not making the mistake of assuming that we all seek to be beautiful. There is nothing I would hate more than being some sort of supermodel style bimbo. After living most of my life inclduing a large part of my childhood this way I pass just fine. It took SRS to get the body I wanted, but I am deliberately a tomboy type, and that's what I pass as.
...

That is a very good point.
I should have been more specific. I have a friend that wants to transition but she's still in the closet, so I guess what I really meant is that whenever she hangs out with our other friends and myself, and she wears her hair up and even wears skirts, she's still got the body of a man but she's just got this radiance to her, like she's able to be herself, and it really makes me smile.
By beautiful, I mean something more than just pretty or even good-looking. I mean... It's like her soul is glowing.

And really by MtFs I meant transitioning women, or in the earlier stages. I have a friend who is really insulted if you call her trans, she USED to be trans as in she "transitioned and now it's over", so I'm used to using it in that respect and forgot that's not really how it's usually used.
Sorry it sounded like I was comparing... I guess I didn't really think about it.

Quote from: fedorahead on May 09, 2010, 05:29:37 AM
That is a very good point.
I should have been more specific. I have a friend that wants to transition but she's still in the closet, so I guess what I really meant is that whenever she hangs out with our other friends and myself, and she wears her hair up and even wears skirts, she's still got the body of a man but she's just got this radiance to her, like she's able to be herself, and it really makes me smile.
By beautiful, I mean something more than just pretty or even good-looking. I mean... It's like her soul is glowing.

And really by MtFs I meant transitioning women, or in the earlier stages. I have a friend who is really insulted if you call her trans, she USED to be trans as in she "transitioned and now it's over", so I'm used to using it in that respect and forgot that's not really how it's usually used.
Sorry it sounded like I was comparing... I guess I didn't really think about it.

yeah ok - I absolutely get that then... Sorry if I misunderstood you.

I too tend to think of the whole transthing as being kind of over since SRS - except of course that as a historical fact it will always be a part of my past, and as we are in part at least, the sum of our memories and life experiences, even though it technically ended a long while ago, it will therefore always be a part of me.

I actually feel quite sorry for those who can't accept that fact because it seems to me that they must spend a huge part of their lives either running away from inconvennient parts of themselves or else deluding themselves that it was different from how it was... I would rather embrace the positives and celebrate all of who I am. (Although in fairness I will admit that as I had the exceptional good luck to have parents who let me grow up openly trans even back in the 1960's - which obviously took huge courage on their part - I may have a different feeling on this from most simply because my road to being me was vastly less filled with pain than many.)

Either way denial, for me, takes way too much emotional and spiritual energy to be worth the candle! And as for getting upset, like I say, I really can't be bothered. Life is just too short.

I think that the inner beauty you are talking about comes from having the confidence to just be yourself and it's not limited to MtF, FtM or anyone. The confidence to just be yourself and not care what the world thinks is an incredibly attractive thing...well at least for me it is.

If someone tells me, after a brutal 16 hour day, that we are the best crew ever I might believe them a bit, but if that what you tell me when you first roll off the bus I know you're lying.

I agree with SilverFang, about more attractive, this is individual issue  :D :D :D

Quote from: SilverFang on May 09, 2010, 04:46:17 AM
I don't know, MTFs are just women to me as far as that goes.

 
As much as I feel like a female inside, i wasn't born one, and i doubt i will ever have enough confidence to say "i'm a transgender female" if i ever decide to transition..because yes: I would definitely agree i'd rather be seen as a woman only-- 
But...I think it's important the transgendered  community recognizes themselves in a transgendered way because I think completely avoiding the "i was born a male" thing is dissassociating from a past we shouldn't regret but be proud to say we overcame. I think skipping over that is caused by an obsession with passing when being transgendered isn't about that.  This is my opinion-- ultimately, i think it is healthier. So I appreciate the thread!

My 'obsession' is with staying alive and healthy as well as being me, not a thing to be ostracized.

Agreed lord Kat

Quote from: jesse on May 10, 2010, 03:36:03 AM
Agreed lord Kat

Hi beautiful lady,

Those who haven't dealt with some of the harsh realities others have, feel safe.

Some of us aren't that lucky.

Good to see you.

Well I don't know about others but I am. Jessica's OK with a paper bag over her head. And the others. WELL

Sorry sisters I couldn't resist please forgive.

You OK Jessica :-*

Cindy, the girl that Angeline Joli wants to have FFS to look like (beard and all) :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

waves excitedly at Kat he noticed me  :-*

im ok cindy im not drinking...yet lol slept to much this weekend couldnt get out of bed for whatever reason
hugs
jessica

---

Post Merge: May 10, 2010, 03:53:26 AM

---

paper bag with no eye holes that way nothing can see me lol

Hiya Cindy,

Yes you are beautiful too.


Neither of you qualify for a paper bag so you have to do without.

*steals paper bag. Puts on head* I'm pretty when I have a paper bag on my head.

oh dang broke anouther mirror i need my bag back
jessica

*destroys all paper bags used by gorgeous ladies*

This includes you gothique

Jessica, you can only make mirrors green with envy. better look again.

Quote from: LordKAT on May 10, 2010, 04:30:36 AM
*destroys all paper bags used by gorgeous ladies*

This includes you gothique

Jessica, you can only make mirrors green with envy. better look again.

OK do we share this guy or raffle him. I'm broke so an auction is out for me.

Then I've been reading about cloning, maybe........

Cindy

we share him after all what are sisters for lol  >:-)

I'm liking this.  ;D   :-*

Quote from: jesse on May 10, 2010, 05:20:52 AM
we share him after all what are sisters for lol  >:-)

Quote from: LordKAT on May 10, 2010, 05:35:38 AM
I'm liking this.  ;D   :-*

...I just knew something like this would happen.... ::)  :icon_rolleyes2:  :rolleyes: ::)

:icon_hug:

Chrissty

Ah a word from another lovely lady.


Greetings this AM Chrissty

were ganging up on you lord kat  ;D a couple more girls and you should "feel like a rock star" lol
hugs

Hold on LordKat - what went wrong between us? I thought you only had eyes for me darling ;)

Last night I was being invited round for beer and poker - now you've deserted me in favour of all these beauties :P

Dear Jenny,

I am inviting any to join my poker party and free beer. I would never desert you  as you and I seem to share some wonderful thoughts and past feelings.

I do so enjoy this wonderful group of lovely ladies. Each of you know how to make my day at different times and I appreciate it far more than any of you probably know.

Quote from: jesse on May 10, 2010, 05:47:00 AM
were ganging up on you lord kat  ;D a couple more girls and you should "feel like a rock star" lol
hugs

Hmm, I drink rockstar and love the song. It is quite fitting I think.

OK,
Yet another one who will not make a comittement. He told me that he owned Microsoft his name  was Bill and had an 11 inch tongue. No idea why he told me that :P

Sorry Lord Kat thanks my friend. I enjoyed  a laugh when I felt down,


Sleep well

Cindy.

Good night Cindy. Sleep well yourself.

night cindy hugs ill be thinking of you
jessica
and night lord kat i need to sleep as well :-*

Snore
They just phoned from UK.
They say they love me.

Bed crying
Thank you my friends

C

Sleep well dear jessica, Sweet dreams for both of you on the wings of angelic thoughts by me.


>:-) :-*

Quote from: LordKAT on May 10, 2010, 07:01:46 AM
Sleep well dear jessica, Sweet dreams for both of you on the wings of angelic thoughts by me.


>:-) :-*

...Hey KAT...now they have both gone to bed and we are alone together....... ::)  :rolleyes:  >:-)

:icon_hug:

Chrissty

Very sneaky!

Saw that chrissty not sneaky enough lol
good night all

I can see where the OP is coming from, a lot of transgendered women are tall and willowy (which helps fit the "ideal woman" spec for a lot of guys, also many transwomen are even more paranoid about their appearance than ggs so they put a lot of effort into looking good. However it is dangerous to be segregated from the gg population, as it can be damaging to the public image of transpeople and also the self acceptance of the transpeople themselves.

Hi fedorahead, :icon_wave:

..I just want to apologise for the large number of off-topic replies... ::)
... we don't often get the chance to laugh with this condition, but when we do, it can get to be a little silly.. :icon_bunch:

:icon_hug:

Chrissty

I think that in general girls are pretty who take their time to look their best, either cis or trans.  I have little respect for those who look like they crawled out from under a rock and make no effort to look better.  It matters not to me what configuration their genital skin was at birth.

Quote from: jesse on May 10, 2010, 05:20:52 AM
we share him after all what are sisters for lol  >:-)

Hey! you can't have him he's mine!!  >:(

Quote from: FairyGirl on May 10, 2010, 02:21:09 PM
Hey! you can't have him he's mine!!  >:(

Oh no, I missed the sign-up sheet.  Not fair!  Not fair!


(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fganjataz.com%2F01smileys%2Fimages%2Fsmileys%2FloopyBlonde-blinking.gif&hash=4545ddf8251cf9c32ae6074d56e48bc34a755857)Kristi

Quote from: fedorahead on May 09, 2010, 04:29:04 AM
I've always thought that MTFs are a lot prettier than biological girls. I mean, obviously some girls are prettier than others, that's just how life works. It just seems to me that MTFs have this sort of internal beauty that radiates from them, making them more attractive... I've also found that I find trans supermodels way more attractive than biologically female models..

Is it just me? My best friend seems to disagree with me, but he's asexual so I wonder what it is that makes me feel this way.

It really annoys me when I hear people saying negative things about MTFs, or pick on someone for not passing well enough, because I just don't get why people don't see whatever it is I'm seeing.

You really are a kind person, I wish more people were more like you! ;D I think that your friend is really lucky to have someone like you around, because it is always comforting and relieving to meet somebody who admires MtFs when faced with a world who must scrutinize it..

I dont know if any else said this, but reading your post made me smile :)

*Can't stop giggling enough to post much of anything* ... LOL  :icon_wave:

I'm picky as it is.  As far as what I find attractive, I like blondes, tall, with high, firm breasts and long legs and arms and good abs that's physically active as I am.  Getting that alone doesn't really allow me to be as picky as determining, "Well, you have to be born biologically male, or pass..."

And a lot of times, if the girl's pretty, I'm not the best person to guess, and I was raised by the sort of people who urged me not to ask about someone's genitals they were born with on the first night.  You know, us southerners are just backwards that way.

The othering is annoying at best, and it bears repeating that the only people who anyone ever perceives as trans are those who don't pass, whether they're trans or not. So it's a bit of a skewed sample. I don't know why people don't seem to get this. But plenty of seemingly intelligent people, ones who understand logic and are aware of common logical fallacies, don't seem to understand that it's even possible that many trans women pass well.

I don't find anything complimentary about the notion of someone being into me because I'm trans. I can't help but suspect it's a kink. Now, I've got nothing against kinks per se, but my gender variance is the opposite of a turn-on for me. So that's not a kink that I would find terribly compatible.

I can admit the possibility that it's not a kink, but what you might call a "type." Maybe some people are just a little bit bi, or maybe they like tall women, or women with strong facial features, or maybe their opinion regarding the ideal proportions of the female posterior is the opposite of Sir Mix-a-Lot's. I wouldn't find any of that particularly offensive.

But my first instinct is that it's a kink.

Am I too late to get in on the LordKAT sharing and rock-star idolization? :)

As for the OP, I really don't have an opinion or offense. I know that I don't pass 10% and well, for now, I'm okay with that. I know that I am trying to make some headway towards becoming the woman I was born to have been. Hopefully I get there before I die.

Deanna

Kaleis i have to appologize also for assisting with the derailing of your thread we all got off on a tangent hugs hun i hope you have a good day
jessica

Quote from: ƃuıxǝʌ on May 10, 2010, 09:36:39 PM
Well, let's look at this objectively.
Someone who is early in transition will find this quite complimentary.

Well yea, wasnt that what I was talking about? I was merely saying that it is nice to have acceptance instead of rejection/scrutiny while an MtF is transitioning.. I think it's important to have support from friends and/or family.

Quote from: ƃuıxǝʌ on May 10, 2010, 09:36:39 PM
Well, let's look at this objectively.
Someone who is pretty much through transition will not like being differentiated from cis women.

I guess I should have said something about post-transitioning because I'd agree with this statement, I don't think it would be nice if an MtF is forceably reminded that she is different from the genetic girls.. It could even be insulting if the person was insistant on this. But do you think this guy saying that he thought us MtFs were beautiful in our own way was him objectifying in some degrading manner? It sounded to me that he is a little ignorant on how to talk to transexuals (because we need such a very intricate and delicate way of language to talk about ourselves), and is here to learn more, because he wants more suport for his friend.

Alternatively, I could be totally wrong on my interpretation of this fellow, and he could very well be one of those guys who stays up till 3am combing through a thousand ->-bleeped-<- pornography sites every night :)

Nobody knows..........

Quote from: ƃuıxǝʌ on May 10, 2010, 09:36:39 PM
Personally, I'm rarely comfortable around someone who singles out MTFs for being MTFs - it's just a tiny bit creepy.

I suppose it is, if he is sexually attracted to us then I sure hope he knows the limits to what he can do in a civilised society, to somebody he finds sexy.. I don't think being sexually attracted to a certain kind of people makes you a predator until you act upon these instincts.. The same could be said about those men who find obese women sexy, or those men who find dominatrixes sexy, these are all things called "paraphilias".. We all have our paraphilias that we do not tell anyone if we can help it! ;D

PS: I'm just debate in a friendly manner, defending myself otherwise I'd look silly ;D I dont want us to have an all-out argument or anything

Quote from: ƃuıxǝʌ on May 10, 2010, 09:36:39 PM
Well, let's look at this objectively.
Someone who is early in transition will find this quite complimentary.
Someone who is pretty much through transition will not like being differentiated from cis women.

Personally, I'm rarely comfortable around someone who singles out MTFs for being MTFs - it's just a tiny bit creepy.

Undoubtedly absolutely true when you are only a few years past transition and/or SRS.

At that point I went into total stealth for quite a long time and I would have been mortified to be picked out. But then, if you are like me, when you get to around 30 years post transition and SRS things can change again.

You may also reach the point where it's all now so far back in the past that you no longer care any more. I've lived almost all my life as the fairly unremarkable, if a little adventurous, girl next door. After managing that nothing really matters that much.

I totally agree out and out ->-bleeped-<- ->-bleeped-<-s are creepy - but at 50,and ultra long time after all my treatment, if I thought someone was genuinely just trying to be nice and being a bit clumsy about it then I probably wouldn't care. :)

Ummm... Maybe its just me, or maybe I missed something in the various posts, but I don't recall seeing anything that indicates that the OP was sexually attracted to MtFs or anything what-so-ever about sex. Attractive/beautiful and sexually attractive are quite different terms. If I say a baby is beautiful that does not make me a pedophile, it simply means that I think the baby is a beautiful baby.

Perhaps what the OP is intending by his comment that he finds early transitioning MtFs more attractive than GGs is that GGs are well established in their femininity and don't have anything to prove to themselves or the world while MtFs, like myself, who are early in their transition are still exploring their femininity and their re-pubescent bodies (I made that one up just now) and are basking in the glow of finally becoming the woman/women that we had closed off for however long we did. For that I thank Fedorahead.

If I am alone in this appreciation then I apologize for generalizing and will return to my basking in privacy.

Deanna (happily exploring who I am finally)

I just wonder how you can be in a crowd and be able to tell the difference between ones who are not biological females opposed to the ones who are? Anybody can guess but I think beauty is deeper than a gender label.

Quote from: Deanna_Renee on May 11, 2010, 10:02:26 AM
Ummm... Maybe its just me, or maybe I missed something in the various posts, but I don't recall seeing anything that indicates that the OP was sexually attracted to MtFs or anything what-so-ever about sex. Attractive/beautiful and sexually attractive are quite different terms. If I say a baby is beautiful that does not make me a pedophile, it simply means that I think the baby is a beautiful baby.

Perhaps what the OP is intending by his comment that he finds early transitioning MtFs more attractive than GGs is that GGs are well established in their femininity and don't have anything to prove to themselves or the world while MtFs, like myself, who are early in their transition are still exploring their femininity and their re-pubescent bodies (I made that one up just now) and are basking in the glow of finally becoming the woman/women that we had closed off for however long we did. For that I thank Fedorahead.

If I am alone in this appreciation then I apologize for generalizing and will return to my basking in privacy.

Deanna (happily exploring who I am finally)

Thank you Deanna, you're entirely right-on about what I was trying to say- I'm not even sure I'm sexually attracted to anyone, but I just feel that girls who are finally becoming who they feel they should have always been have a certain happy radiant aura that just seems to draw me in.

I sincerely apologize to everyone who thought I was being creepy, but honestly? I never said ANYTHING about sex, I said attractive. I don't have a fetish or anything like that, I just feel happy around them. Like second-hand freedom.

I'm also sorry that I wasn't able to clear this up earlier, I've been quite busy recently.

Quote from: Alyssa M. on May 10, 2010, 10:11:46 PM
The othering is annoying at best, and it bears repeating that the only people who anyone ever perceives as trans are those who don't pass, whether they're trans or not. So it's a bit of a skewed sample. I don't know why people don't seem to get this. But plenty of seemingly intelligent people, ones who understand logic and are aware of common logical fallacies, don't seem to understand that it's even possible that many trans women pass well.

I don't find anything complimentary about the notion of someone being into me because I'm trans. I can't help but suspect it's a kink. Now, I've got nothing against kinks per se, but my gender variance is the opposite of a turn-on for me. So that's not a kink that I would find terribly compatible.

I can admit the possibility that it's not a kink, but what you might call a "type." Maybe some people are just a little bit bi, or maybe they like tall women, or women with strong facial features, or maybe their opinion regarding the ideal proportions of the female posterior is the opposite of Sir Mix-a-Lot's. I wouldn't find any of that particularly offensive.

But my first instinct is that it's a kink.

This very true. People a more sceptical then ever before about any woman who doesn't fit the criteria of looking 100% female.
I remember as a child, noticing some extremely masculine looking women and nobody stared or made comments. No one even considered they might be transgendered. If they were or not, is anybody's guess.
Today, with shows like Jerry Springer and Maury Povich where they pick out a ts woman from a bio woman suddenly makes entertainment, and unfortunately, this has spilled out into every day life.

Quote from: Hermione01 on May 21, 2010, 11:03:40 PM
This very true. People a more sceptical then ever before about any woman who doesn't fit the criteria of looking 100% female.
I remember as a child, noticing some extremely masculine looking women and nobody stared or made comments. No one even considered they might be transgendered. If they were or not, is anybody's guess.
Today, with shows like Jerry Springer and Maury Povich where they pick out a ts woman from a bio woman suddenly makes entertainment, and unfortunately, this has spilled out into every day life.

That is an interesting comment. Why has the identification of TG women become entertainment. I normally don't watch such rubbish but I did see one episode of someone who was 'entertaining' the audience by trying to identify who was and who wasn't natal females. I just didn't get it. All of the women featured were very beautiful, to a point that any woman would be happy to look like any of them (IMO).

Are we going to have shows of: spot the disability? Spot the alcoholic? But the reason this rubbish goes to air is that it attracts an audience. Why?

Cindy

Quote from: CindyJames on May 22, 2010, 03:32:51 AM
That is an interesting comment. Why has the identification of TG women become entertainment. I normally don't watch such rubbish but I did see one episode of someone who was 'entertaining' the audience by trying to identify who was and who wasn't natal females. I just didn't get it. All of the women featured were very beautiful, to a point that any woman would be happy to look like any of them (IMO).

Are we going to have shows of: spot the disability? Spot the alcoholic? But the reason this rubbish goes to air is that it attracts an audience. Why?

Cindy

Yes it's rather barbaric isnt it? This is what I eas trying to say before about Gays in Soap Operas being nothing more than comical effect, they never get a serious love plot where they find a partner, and if thet do then they are promptly removed entirely from the soap. Its almost as if thet dont want them there on account of being homosexual, thats discrimination.

It's very sad that we are seen as something trivial or entertainment and don't deserve any respect.. :'(

Quote from: fedorahead on May 21, 2010, 10:28:25 PM
I just feel that girls who are finally becoming who they feel they should have always been have a certain happy radiant aura that just seems to draw me in.
I just feel happy around them.

Whole heartedly feel the same. I think a few of them know that about me.

I found some more paper bags.lmao :)

This is what I eas trying to say before about Gays in Soap Operas being nothing more than comical effect, they never get a serious love plot where they find a partner, and if thet do then they are promptly removed entirely from the soap. Its almost as if thet dont want them there on account of being homosexual, thats discrimination.

It's part of a natural progression, several soaps have gay stories/relationships in them now that are just as messed up/boring as everyone else in the series is. Lots of TV shows have African-American characters that are no different (they are not comic-relief, nor are they playing the second stereotype, that of the kind of cool guy that Cosby was on I Spy) then the other characters.

Quote from: scarboroughfair on May 23, 2010, 01:40:45 AM
You're one in a million...

It truly is about "internal" beauty. If I had to live as a guy, I would definitely check out ts girls because the "Feminine" power in them or "us" is so much more rich that that of a genetic girl. If you are for real, bless you. :)

How do you figure that?

Not all gg's share those characteristics, and there are also transwomen that have those characteristics... you're generalizing. I would feel no reason to think I was more female than any genetic girl or any transgirl... I'm just me.

Quote from: scarboroughfair on May 23, 2010, 02:19:45 AM
Easy, some of the other "TS"girls I have met are a LADY. Most genetic girls I have spent time with are either too controlling and independent in a way that is EGO. Not to mention all the hang ups or otherwise involved with genetic girls. :D

I know you're not meaning to be disrespectful but I think your opinions are a bit off kilter. I have two friends who are ts women and have met many in the last couple of years who have all the same and diverse characteristics as genetic women, so I can't understand what you're trying to say.

I think MtF are often more in touch with their feminitity because pre trans they obviously lack certain physical attributes so they have to compensate.

Of course this is a generalization, but how many of you have known a woman that looks super feminine that acts otherwise? I have a sweet looking girl friend that swears like a trucker and is very assertive and outspoken. She can get away with it. If an already more "masculine" looking female were to act masculine, others would think she wants to be a man. There's a balance I think everyone tries to maintain to control others' perceptions. If my friend were to act as sweet and innocent as she looks, others would view her as stuck up or a goody goody. People think I look sad or angry all the time because I don't have a fake smile plastered to my face so I must present myself in a more cheerful manner when I do communicate. It's all about the balance.

I think it is because they have to do a lot of introspection and that leads to their confidence in being themselves. But what do I know.

well that's nice to hear, because many people think the opposite. it makes me happier with myself when people give those kinds of compliments.

Quote from: ƃuıxǝʌ on May 23, 2010, 03:56:32 PM
Wow, I haven't seen such blatant misogyny in quite a while.

Exactly what I thought.  :o

It may also work.  My parents proved that much (they function more or less as co-heads of the household, with one taking more responsibility when one is significantly stronger than the other on an issue... and these strengths don't neatly fall along traditional gender lines).

Yes, you are old-fashioned.

Men, women, and others should be who they are.  If you are a "traditional" woman that wants a "traditional" man, then go for one.  However, that's not going to work for everyone.  While I consider myself open to a healthy range of women, I would not be interested in one that is entirely traditional.  This is not to say you cannot be entirely traditional, of course.  You are your own person, after all.

It's okay to say what you want.  But when you start saying than other people should be what you want, then you're entering a territory of greed and demanding conformity that attacks the true nature of others.

---

Late addition: If there are supposedly more women who are masculine than men who want someone feminine, then I suspect femininity itself has a problem.  Society does not value femininity very well -- and that seems to show why people like it in others (men liking it in women) more than they like it in themselves (women doing it for themselves).

To me, personally, I think masculinity/femininity are red herrings.  What I think people should do it try is utilize their strengths and try to be good human beings (regardless of how "masculine" or "feminine" that makes them), and they should look for others to do the same.

Quote from: scarboroughfair on May 23, 2010, 08:01:42 PM
Sorry you interpreted it that way. I don't believe all woman are like what I speak of, but there are those circles that are and that's the ones I speak of. If I was on the hunt for a woman and she possesed any of the said traits I run the other way.

Maybe I'm old fashioned but the man is generally the head of the household. Take that away from him and the marriage may just fail.

Take it how you like. :)

You raise an interesting view. Many men feel that their masculinity is being trampled on as women take on more and more of their roles in society. They wish to "preserve" their masculinity but the only way to do this is by oppressing women.

Think of typical male jobs verse female jobs. More men are becoming nurses and women welcome them with open arms because they simply don't care. But if a women wanted to be a mechanic she would have to go above and beyond just to prove that she is capable and even then, many guys wouldn't want her there.

I would never enter a marriage if I couldn't 100% support myself if it were to fail. Am I less of a woman because I reject the idea of head of the household? Am I any less of a woman because I want independence and have an opinion? I think people who say yes want men to have dominance and woman to be subordinate which I am glad is becoming an old fashioned idea.

I have edited my previous post a bit (the new stuff is after the line break), but I see uni sort of beat me to the punch a bit.

To respond to uni, it is very wise to not leave yourself at the mercy of someone else should you need a divorce.  Having that independence positions you in a way where you can have an equal voice.  It is the sort of example that shows where traditional femininity runs into trouble -- at best, the husband ends up calling all the shots and tries to make sure he properly value his wife's judgment; at worst, he abuses his power and makes her do things she would never do if she had the financial means to escape.  I think it is unreasonable for a man (or a woman for that matter) to expect to have this kind of authority in a relationship, but it also speaks to why masculinity and femininity need to be scrutinized.

This is sort of where I wound up with my post edit, but I think this issues speaks to the need of people to embrace making *good* decisions rather than masculine or feminine decisions.  I don't think it's good for any man or woman to be violent or subservient.  I think it is good for any man or woman to be effective caregivers and well-educated.  It is true that a someone cannot be all good things and no bad things, but if the two people in a relationship can do enough of what needs to be done and avoid enough of the pitfalls, they can do well.

If these men don't want to have to do the unpaid traditional work, I would recommend they pay either their wives (to be) or someone else to do it to show how much they value it.  I have a hunch that for most traditional men that they don't realize how much that work is really worth.  And if they want their wives to make themselves nice and pretty without paying them (as they might an escort), then these men need to do some other favor or show some other courtesy accordingly.  Many men take this effort for granted, and they end being quite selfish/greedy and not even realize it.

I don't even think in terms of 'general' because as it turns out, there is no general anymore.  I don't know about the difference between male head of households, and female head of households - I don't think we have enough data to compare.

But, I'm damn sure that a single head of household deal tends to work out much better than a two head of household deal.  And that confusion and constant power tripping is far, far better then a no head of household household.  Damn Skippy about that one.

At some point someones' got to make a decision.  I've always been in the 'don't be that person' camp, but if I have to, I will.  Always fighting about who is making the decision is not efficient, and not making a decision is almost always a bad idea.  So there has to be a process of arriving at a decision in relationships.

However people choose to work that out in their relationships is up to them in mutual consent.  If that's met - if both sides consent to it, them I'm down with it, pretty much no matter what their doing is OK with me, I'm groovy with it.  After all, relationships can be defined in different ways, and all of those ways have succeed.  And all of them have failed too.  So there you go.  You pay your money and you take your chances.

The deal I had with my ex went: I'd make the big decisions, she'd make the little decisions.  But, the decision as to what is big or little, was in and of itself, a little decision.  We make a bit over 20 years that way, not too bad.   

Yeah, some MTFS who's gone under surgery are quiet attractive.  :o

The Jedi used to tell me that women were not equal to men and the Sith were evil. But since Ive stopped following that dogmatic view of the Jedi I believe we are all a part of the Force. The Force glows in those with confidence.
I love Christina Aguliera's song "Beautiful" as a point of view.

QuoteAt some point someones' got to make a decision.  I've always been in the 'don't be that person' camp, but if I have to, I will.

At least if it is arranged for, it is still possible when two people are "heads" for one to take charge without necessarily going through the partner.  Sometimes there can be criticism after the fact, but generally any "problems" with the result pale in comparison with the effort/value of having the task accomplished.  If the non-task doer has too many complaints, then it may be a case where a trade or sharing in responsibilities is in order.  Of course, if they are both passionate "experts" with diverging opinions, there could be problems (http://xkcd.com/309/), but they probably would have cared about the issue enough to have discussed it before entering in a long-term relationship.

Two-heads are definitely more complicated, but some people like what the extra engagement offers them.

What's hotter than a chick with a...

Yeah, hear it all the time:)

IMHO: GG's are generally prettier, but the transformation in some transmen and transwomen, may only be described as beautiful.  Bravo.

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Post Merge: May 24, 2010, 01:34:02 AM

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Quote from: scarboroughfair on May 23, 2010, 02:19:45 AM
Easy, some of the other "TS"girls I have met are a LADY. Most genetic girls I have spent time with are either too controlling and independent in a way that is EGO. Not to mention all the hang ups or otherwise involved with genetic girls. :D

Excuse me?

Most transwomen I've met in real life have left me with bile in my throat.  Ladylike?  More like delusional, egotistically indulgent imitations.  What comes to mind is post WW2 Geishas, where any chick who could put on a polyester kimono would refer to herself as such.  There's an ever elusive minority, it seems, that convey something beyond that.  Ladies?  Hmmph.  Perhaps within the folds of one of our other 10 dimensions.

This thread is making me "eep" ...a lot.

I guess I will talk about the topic for a bit.

Surgery SRS shouldn't be affecting the way MtFs look for as long as they have their clothes on.  Hormones can have a significant impact on such an appearance, and even some MtFs are able to pull off a look even without/before using them.

In general, though, I'd rather not get into the business of saying what is beautiful and what is not.  MtFs tend to have more hurdles (physically and emotionally/mentally) to clear to get where they want to be, and them overcoming those challenges can be moving/beautiful, but I'd rather see women and men of all types as human beings (with potentially some interest as to their gender for sexual attraction purposes).  They can be beautiful, hideous, and anywhere between (which can be shaped by "uniqueness") on numerous physical and mental dimensions.  What is considered beautiful/hideous is subjective, and the relative values of each factor are also subjective.  Personally, I'm not particularly interested is using someone's physical appearance to judge them.  But even more than that, I'm not comfortable using the "trans" factor to judge what is beautiful and what is not (and it cuts both ways).  Besides, I'd think MtFs would rather think of themselves as being loved as women rather than transwomen.

And I guess there are boob jobs, too (in case hormones aren't cutting to the person's satisfaction).

So, that sentence notwithstanding...

Objectification of women, misogeny, misandry, transmisogeny, elieteism and ad hominem attacks.
This thread is fail.

Quote from: cynthialee on May 24, 2010, 09:00:54 AM
Objectification of ad hominem attacks.

Mmmmm sexy ;D

/facepalm

Quote from: cynthialee on May 24, 2010, 12:19:57 PM
/facepalm

lol ;D

Quote from: Jen on May 24, 2010, 02:12:36 AM
This thread is making me "eep" ...a lot.

Ditto, it'll probably be locked soon. Why can we not just judge MTFs by the standards of other women? MTFs are probably as diverse as non-transwomen (I only say probably as I don't have social experience with MTFs.) Once a lesbian broke my mom's nose, so she assumed all lesbians were violent. Not so, it just depends on who you meet. Bigger problem since transwomen are relatively uncommon.

I do see the OP's point, though I think it was badly put. I think that anyone who has thought deeply for many years about who they are, what they want out of life and how to live a good life is left with a kind of beauty, a depth and warmth you can see in their eyes, how they carry themselves and how they interact with others. Furthermore, experiencing hardships (or harder ships than most) will make a person more humble, more able to empathise with the plights of others and stronger and more secure within themselves. And they may even develop a killer sense of humour to deal with it, too!  :P
And the above can apply to anyone, but it is more-or-less part and parcel of having GID for most. It takes years of thinking, struggling for self-acceptance, and a struggle for the acceptance of others. And posessing the above qualities makes a person so very attractive, that I think I may be able to agree with the original statement!
See, I managed to agree without any of the:

Quote from: cynthialee on May 24, 2010, 09:00:54 AM
Objectification of women, misogeny, misandry, transmisogeny, elieteism and ad hominem attacks.

So take that. ;D

I think some people like to look at trans people, or think they're beautiful, because of relief.
Let's be honest: After being locked inside the wrong body, pushed into the wrong gender-expectations, and generally being held from being yourself, the relief of finally being able to be yourself in the outside world is brilliant!
So much more relaxing; as it a leaden weight was lifted from your shoulders. A new kind of contentment that has never been before. And yes; that shows.

Other than that, I don't see why the one person would be more attractive than the other because of something like this. Really. Well; perhaps some people harbour the illusion that they can be 'straight' with a trans-person, and still be with someone who is on the same 'gender-line' as themselves.. I dunno; just guessing, really.

All in all: I really don't think a topic like this is worth such a big deal. It's not about 'more feminine than thou;' it's nót a competition! I understand why there are so many negative responses to the remark of TS women being more feminine. I'd join the opposition, were it not that either side of this is nonsense, in my book.
We are who and what we are, and what we may become. That should be enough for anyone, right?

I think people are beautiful, MTF's included. They do seem to have an inner quality that is hard to describe tho.

Quote from: LordKAT on May 27, 2010, 11:41:44 PM
I think people are beautiful, MTF's included. They do seem to have an inner quality that is hard to describe tho.

Completely agree... :)

I love transsexuals too much. Some are them are too hot to handle :)

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Post Merge: June 10, 2010, 12:54:30 PM

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IF i had a hot one. I would marry her. I am not gay

Quote from: wayz on June 10, 2010, 12:53:40 PM
I love transsexuals too much. Some are them are too hot to handle :)

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Post Merge: June 10, 2010, 12:54:30 PM

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IF i had a hot one. I would marry her. I am not gay

I can't help but worry over this post.  It's not so much your fascination with transwomen... well that is part of it, there's definitely a divided opinion within the trans community regarding particular attractions towards individuals within that community, most notably being that some are open to it and some are not.  Given this, and given that the popular majority of this forum fits the latter, I cannot find justification for such a comment as this.

The last part is... I see it on other forums, pornagraphically oriented ones.  "I like ->-bleeped-<-s, does this make me gay?"  Why must this perpetuate?

Furthermore, why isn't this in the sexuality forum?

I think everyone is beatiful in one or an other. No matter their gender heh but that's just me.

As an artist I like to see the beautiful in everyone. I think there are a lot of really good looking guys in this forum, does that make me a ->-bleeped-<-? I think it just means I like guys lol

Quote from: FairyGirl on August 15, 2010, 02:58:44 PM
As an artist I like to see the beautiful in everyone. I think there are a lot of really good looking guys in this forum, does that make me a ->-bleeped-<-? I think it just means I like guys lol

Agreed.