Susan's Place Transgender Resources

Enjoy! LOL SO TRUE.

http://www.ehow.com/how_2138852_deal-female-mind-male.html (http://www.ehow.com/how_2138852_deal-female-mind-male.html)

Somehow a article that says women are liars, manipulative, and stubborn is not one I want to read.

I smell sexism.

And a little bit of misogyny as well. What's the need to debase/demean a gender like that? It's simple. If you do not understand, ask but ask with respect.

And it's not true. I've grown up with some strong women role models in my family. What I learned was how to open my yap and ask.

Well what they said is true for some women. But its not right to say every woman is like that. It's just like saying every man only wants to get in your pants and will sit around drinking beer and watching the game.

Quote from: Kyle XD on May 28, 2010, 11:01:31 AM
Well what they said is true for some women. But its not right to say every woman is like that. It's just like saying every man only wants to get in your pants and will sit around drinking beer and watching the game.

Wait...all men aren't like that? :o

Quote from: Jeatyn on May 28, 2010, 11:05:16 AM
Wait...all men aren't like that? :o

Hard to believe right?

I thought that article was meant to be humorous and not taken seriously.  I'm sure the men who wrote it love their gfs/wives, and I'm sure women write very similar articles about men.  Believe me.   ;)

Quote from: V on May 28, 2010, 12:48:11 PMI'm sure the men who wrote it love their gfs/wives, and I'm sure women write very similar articles about men.  Believe me.   ;)

It was written by a woman.

Apparently I missed that.
I don't really think that changes things.  I think there is a lot of joking going on between the genders, and I don't necessarily think the author thinks all women are evil, conniving liars.  That would be a little ironic.

I don't think it changes things either, just pointing it out.

Of course there is a lot of joking that goes on between the genders, I've made them too, I just didn't really find it all that amusing. If her other articles are anything to go off of, she might be genuine but it doesn't matter. The real amusing part to all this is that I hear and see people actually believe these sort of things.

What troubles me is someone posts this and says that it's true.

Quote from: Lachlann on May 28, 2010, 01:50:18 PM

What troubles me is someone posts this and says that it's true.

Ditto

If it really is believed to be true, then that is definitely troubling.

From the biological male perspective, the article is fairly accurate, reflecting my experience with only mild exaggeration and over-generalization provided for humorous effect.  Of the men I know and have spoken with on the subject, I can think of only one (and he, unmarried and deeply idealistic) who would venture disagreement; the married men and women that I know, and the female engineers that I have studied with, could very well have written this article, judging by their expressed opinions.

- N

As someone who attended an all woman's college and spent 4 years surrounded by hundreds of women, I have to say that while the wording of the article could have been nicer, most of the generalizations were fairly accurate for the majority of women.

It worries me that the OP, as a transgendered person could be that close minded. Generalisation and stereotyping is all crap, and trans people should know that more than most.

So, on that note. All transmen are just confused and disturbed lesbians.
Oh, and as lesbians are women, we're all liars too!

Quote from: Ryan on May 28, 2010, 08:00:43 PMGeneralisation and stereotyping is all crap

Actually, generalizations are very useful in psychology and learning how to best deal with different groups of people (because different groups DO need to be treated differently because they ARE different.  It doesn't help someone raised in Chinese culture to try to teach them math the same way you'd teach someone raised in American culture.  They learn differently).  They way we learned it in my multicultural education class, generalizations are based on fact and research and are good as long as it's recognized that every member of a group won't fall into the generalization.  It's stereotypes that are bad because they're not based on research and fact the way generalizations are.  For example, in this case it would be an unhelpful stereotype to say that all women are manipulative liars, but it would be a helpful generalization to say that women's brains and socialization lead them to be able to sway people and influence them appealing to their emotions more so than men.

Well that shut me up ;)
Yeah, you raised some great points there. My point shall still stand, just without the generalisation bit.

I found it funny.. but then again.. I usually don't like women.. but that is probably just a deep rooted anger towards them.. because they are what am I trying so hard to NOT be, despite the fact that people continue to call me that.

Read one sentence, closed the window. No thx sexism.

I think this post (link) was intended as 'guys slapping each others back' kinda thing and having a laugh about how women are manipulative liars but adorable all at the same time.   ::)

Yes, most part of that article is true about women and it should of written in nicer words but it's still true and funny. And yep! Most bio males would give eachother a slap on the back and laugh. I don't know why people on here wouldn't find this funny and become so sensitive about it. I thought we were all males?  ???

Quote from: accord03 on May 29, 2010, 04:37:09 AM
Yes, most part of that article is true about women and it should of written in nicer words but it's still true and funny. And yep! Most bio males would give eachother a slap on the back and laugh. I don't know why people on here wouldn't find this funny and become so sensitive about it. I thought we were all males?  ???

Just because they can be insensitive and misogynistic doesn't mean you should either. Why not be a man of integrity and stand up for woman? There was a time when white men would make similar remarks about african american men. There ain't no way I want to emulate that.

You don't have to belong to the "ol' boys" club to be a man, you know?

Loving that the OP has gone from watched to moderated again.

We are men, but I think we're a different breed of men. We've been through experiences that alter our views on gender and sex. I think many of us are probably more understanding of womens' issues, having probably been through them ourselves at some point.

I don't think that OP is a troll either. Just obnoxious and a bit too far up his own ass.

Gender is a much more complex thing. It's one thing to feel physical dysphoria and feel like you belong in a certain body, but most of the stereotypes about gender that we have are simply man made. It's not as simple as saying, "I'm oblivious to people's emotions and feelings, therefore I'm a man, lawl~."

Not every man is the same, not every woman is the same. There are so many different types of men and women in the world that I think it's really silly to me to hold people to a lot of these stereotypes. My mom doesn't act like the women they talk about in the article, in fact, my dad tends to. The only women I've ever known to act like the stereotype were either following it because they were raised that way or they were extremely insecure with themselves. I've met so many women who weren't the stereotype, probably more than the ones who were.

It's not about being overly sensitive, it's about treating people as individuals. I believe in letting people show me what kind of person they are without stereotyping them with age, gender, sex, race, nationality, orientation, etc... because I think it's only fair because I'd want to be treated that way too. Humans aren't one dimensional characters.

Quote from: Ryan on May 29, 2010, 09:04:35 AM
We are men, but I think we're a different breed of men. We've been through experiences that alter our views on gender and sex. I think many of us are probably more understanding of womens' issues, having probably been through them ourselves at some point.

I think this is dangerous ground. You can't assume that trans guys have some sort of common base of experience that makes us better men or helps us understand women's issues.

Truth is that a lot of my experience of being trans paints women in a very negative light. In my experience they're the ones who enforce gender roles, expectations of dress/presentation, and behavioural standards on other female-bodied people. And my experience of being expected to understand why they do the things they do, why they behave the way they do in relationships, has forced me to come to the realization that I just..don't. And can't. A lot of it just seems nuts. And it's really hard, given my experience as a trans guy, not to be a bit of a misogynist. But I've chosen to be a die-hard feminist instead - not because I'm trans, but because I believe that it's morally right (and in the end it's better for men).

But not all trans guys are going to react that way, just like not all cis guys will. We're not some sort of "new and improved" model of men who can all be expected to be enlightened. It's that sort of reasoning, relying on our so-called "female socialization," that has many cis women convinced that we should be allowed into women-only spaces and our trans sisters should be excluded. Both of which are bad choices.

Like Lach, I know of no woman who is like that article but I know men who say that about women to put them down. Sometimes some women act a bit like one piece of it but so do men. Saying all women are manipulative liars is just plain bad behavior in itself and very childish.

accord03: Many of us have said it's not true and is not funny.
I think that many of us have faced some sort of sexism in our lives.

Quote from: accord03 on May 29, 2010, 04:37:09 AM
Yes, most part of that article is true about women and it should of written in nicer words but it's still true and funny. And yep! Most bio males would give eachother a slap on the back and laugh. I don't know why people on here wouldn't find this funny and become so sensitive about it. I thought we were all males?  ???

In my experience, there are remarkable differences between biological males and transmen with respect to experience, opinion, values, and neurobiology, and transmen demonstrate remarkably greater variance as compared to biological males with respect to these characteristics.  Additionally, as this is a support site, and therefore those present here express, by their very presence, some need for information and/or emotional contact; you can expect that these needs produce emotional stress and, logically following, defensive reactions, often unreasoned.  As a result, conversations here can quickly devolve into a maze of vehement, conflicting, and usually unsupported, assertions.

Recognition of the nature of this forum may allow you to use it more effectively.  I'd suggest using this site as a support forum rather than as an assumed peer group or as a venue for reasoned debate; offer questions, or comments which may be effective in answering others' questions, or occasional requests for clarification of questions posed.  This forum is often helpful, but often unfriendly.

Welcome to Susan's Place.

- N

Quotebut often unfriendly.

I don't agree, i have found many friends and friendly  people and posts here.

I've found a lot of friendly, helpful and supportive people, here. While I've only been around for a few months, I have found Susan's to be a safe place to discuss things. In fact, the first time I felt uncomfortable or felt unfriendly vibes was when accord03 started posting and acting in a manner I cannot properly describe without violating rules.

Quote from: kyril on May 29, 2010, 10:51:01 AM
You can't assume that trans guys have some sort of common base of experience that makes us better men or helps us understand women's issues.

I said many of us. Obviously you're not included in that many.
Either way, I just type what I think. That doesn't make it true in any way, shape or form. It's just how I see things.

Quote from: accord03 on May 29, 2010, 04:37:09 AMI don't know why people on here wouldn't find this funny and become so sensitive about it. I thought we were all males?  ???

Being a man is not about being a chauvinistic prick. You don't have to treat women poorly to assert your masculinity. You don't have to beat your chest like a gorilla to assert your masculinity. You don't have to behave in accordance with "any" of the alpha-male stereotypes to assert your masculinity.

Stereotypes are never an accurate representation of the whole.

Men can be sensitive, respectful, intelligent, gentle, loving, creative, artistic, etc. It doesn't make them less male.

Is it possible you're overcompensating a little?

I honestly can't believe I'm agreeing with Accord03 of all the people on this thread.. but really are we all this touchy? yes the article is insensitive and demeaning to women, and the OP is showing (yet again) a lack of life experience by posting it and assuming that as guys we'll all think it's funny and slap each other on the backs.. but this article was written by a heterosexual military wife, if she wants to perpetuate a false stereotype then.. she's an idiot, and how much better are we for calling Accord03 a troll, sexist, or anything else said along those lines? He's already stated in another thread that "..I haven't come across people who tried to attack or abuse me" about being trans. So maybe instead of attacking his naivety (about life in general) we should educate him first? If that doesn't work it's always better to ignore than feed..

You're right to a degree, Evan, people could be a lot more nicer in how they go about educating Accord03, but some of us already are trying to be as polite as we can. No one has called him a troll in this thread either aside from the ones saying that he is not one out of the blue.

I also don't see anyone calling him sexist, they're taking issue with the article more so than with Accord03. It does concern me that he believes it to be true, but others, including myself, have explained why we think that it's wrong.

I'm drunk. Got nothing to say  ;D

Probably, having such strong moral correctness leads to problems like this.  Do I think the article mentioned is some field guide to women?  Do I think it tells all truths about every female individual in the human race?  No, and I'm sure no one does.  (If they do, they should be tested for various psychiatric disorders, no doubt).  Women probably wouldn't take offense to this either, especially as it was written by a woman as a sort of in-joke, and what does it say about us, or anyone else for that matter, if we are so quick to offend?  If we are so quick to jump up and point in accusation?  That is what uptight Christians do to television; scream offense at the slightest thing and have a show canceled.

Sure, one could technically translate this whole thread into how men treat women and the many horrors of misogyny, but I think that energy could be directed elsewhere.  Like, per se, to real misogynists.  Again, insane moral compasses sometimes lead to overreaction.

I think you're being hyperbole on this situation, V. All I see are people who disagree that the article is true or don't think it's that funny. Some people don't like dead baby jokes, but I'm not going to hold it against them and think they're overly sensitive.

I mean, I can't speak for everyone in this thread, but I'm not offended by this article. I've laughed at sexist jokes before, this isn't the type I find all that funny because it sounds pretty lame. What actually irks me is someone saying it's true, and in another thread, perpetuates the same stereotype and seeking advice about how to communicate with his gf. Then wonders why we don't automatically find it funny because we happen to be male.

I have seen people overreact a lot on this forum before, this is a really tame case of overreaction imo.

@lachlann I haven't been exactly polite to him either (not this thread), and you're right about the sexist/troll comments.. after reading the whole thread to that point, I went ahead and grouped this thread with a couple others to try and better illustrate what I was thinking. I should have stopped and thought it through better before I just started typing.. whether or not he thinks there is truth to the article, along with any other things people have been calling him out on recently, I still feel like any overreaction no matter how slight might not be the best coarse of action to deal with him

Im gonna jump in here, even though its totally not my place..seen as I'm a girl..and say that I do these things..and feel this way, I didnt find it sexist or demeaning or any other negative sense of it..like...I think its hard for guys on here to read that and say its wrong because, like you've always been a guy..like even before you came out, you had a male brain hence the reason for transitioning so, say that its wrong and sexist may only be coming from you never doing any of these things before coming out and therefor see it offensive to women..idk..

but i feel like it definitely sits true with me, and alot of my other girl friends.

(disclaimer-Im a cis-gendered female)

Quote from: StaceyBean on May 31, 2010, 03:20:34 AM
Im gonna jump in here, even though its totally not my place..seen as I'm a girl..and say that I do these things..and feel this way, I didnt find it sexist or demeaning or any other negative sense of it..like...I think its hard for guys on here to read that and say its wrong because, like you've always been a guy..like even before you came out, you had a male brain hence the reason for transitioning so, say that its wrong and sexist may only be coming from you never doing any of these things before coming out and therefor see it offensive to women..idk..

but i feel like it definitely sits true with me, and alot of my other girl friends.

(disclaimer-Im a cis-gendered female)

Thanks babe  ;)

you are most certainly welcome. I know I'm going against the grain here on most peoples opinions but hey i thought I'd throw mine out there.

Quote from: StaceyBean on May 31, 2010, 03:20:34 AMyou had a male brain hence the reason for transitioning so, say that its wrong and sexist may only be coming from you never doing any of these things before coming out and therefor see it offensive to women..idk..

*shrug* I really don't think so. I don't think things like the N word are more acceptable coming from a black person than from someone who is white, for example. Just because I'm not black doesn't mean I don't find it unacceptable or can't pin point when a stereotype isn't as correct as it's said to be. There are also people who say really unacceptable things about whatever group they belong to. Self-hating women I've seen, self-hating gays, self-hating 'insert race here', etc... it doesn't really change things from the perspective that it's from when it comes to something like this.

I don't have to be a woman to be feminist and I don't have to be a minority to fight against their injustices or understand it. And isn't that what most transgender people want too? For people who aren't in their shoes to understand where they're coming from so we can gain equality?

One person doesn't represent everyone. You can see in this thread several times people who have experienced different kinds of women, maybe because their culture is a bit different, or maybe because there really are a variety of women out there. Some of us haven't really seen this stereotype much and others apparently have seen it more often.

To me, I've see all these traits listed in the article happen to both men and women. Which is why I don't think the stereotype is true about women, but more true about a certain type of people. People that have insecurities in themselves.

Quote from: Lachlann on May 31, 2010, 10:38:30 PM
*shrug* I really don't think so. I don't think things like the N word are more acceptable coming from a black person than from someone who is white, for example. Just because I'm not black doesn't mean I don't find it unacceptable or can't pin point when a stereotype isn't as correct as it's said to be. There are also people who say really unacceptable things about whatever group they belong to. Self-hating women I've seen, self-hating gays, self-hating 'insert race here', etc... it doesn't really change things from the perspective that it's from when it comes to something like this.

I don't have to be a woman to be feminist and I don't have to be a minority to fight against their injustices or understand it. And isn't that what most transgender people want too? For people who aren't in their shoes to understand where they're coming from so we can gain equality?

One person doesn't represent everyone. You can see in this thread several times people who have experienced different kinds of women, maybe because their culture is a bit different, or maybe because there really are a variety of women out there. Some of us haven't really seen this stereotype much and others apparently have seen it more often.

To me, I've see all these traits listed in the article happen to both men and women. Which is why I don't think the stereotype is true about women, but more true about a certain type of people. People that have insecurities in themselves.

I must agree with you, that it isn't "okay" or more okay for any race to use different words..putting it that way i can understand what you're saying. I guess my only point was, coming from where I stand, not being trans, and agreeing with the majority of what was said. Eh thats just me. You say its based on insecurities, but I highly disagree...but thats just me

Quote from: StaceyBean on May 31, 2010, 11:21:53 PM
I must agree with you, that it isn't "okay" or more okay for any race to use different words..putting it that way i can understand what you're saying. I guess my only point was, coming from where I stand, not being trans, and agreeing with the majority of what was said. Eh thats just me. You say its based on insecurities, but I highly disagree...but thats just me

Fair enough. :)

I'm with Lach on this, I've seen those traits in both males and females. I have had to deal with men like that and it gets dangerous when you do. The traits listed are not female traits so much as a personality that has both genders.