Susan's Place Transgender Resources

This is a topic I discussed before with some cisgender friends who don't agree with the situation but for myself I don't feel as if I was in the wrong. So, advice or any sort of thoughts would be awesome.

I have been living as male for a few years, pre-T, non-passing the majority of the time and my name and gender on my ID are both female. A few months ago I went to a bar to celebrate my friend's birthday. It wasn't a "queer" bar. I was asked for ID when I went to get a drink and was told it was ladies night which meant many drinks were free where as I would've paid maybe $8 for a long island iced tea. Since I don't have much money, didn't have to worry about driving and was there for a friend I just went with the bartender reading me as female.

Is it necessarily a bad thing to take advantage of things typically reserved to women?

Edit to add: I apologize if this isn't a topic that would ordinarily fit in this forum.

I only think it would be wrong if you dressed up feminine.. JUST to get the free drinks, but if you were already read as female.. well, hey, free drinks.

the only problem i can see with it is losing credibility with cis people that may think "well you got  free drinks you're not REALLY..."blahblahblah

other than that, hell go for it. if i was of the body type that was popular at the moment lemme tell you i would be taking advantage of it  :D

well i think it comes down to you really. like, are you willing to be seen as female for a night to get cheaper/free drinks? i mean, personally its something i don't think i'd do.

i could see how that could be offensive or disagreed with or w/e.

I think a guy having to live in a female body deserves a free drink.

Well...with myself the thing is that my friends and the people I was there with called me by a male name and male pronouns. It was just a matter of the bartender is going to see my female ID and reading me as female. It wasn't a bar I frequented or would go back to by choice. It's not my kinda bar.

If I don't pass getting into strip clubs, I figure they lost the money, I didn't steal it.

I think a lot of people, probably your friends included, have taken advantage of a situation like that.

They're called loop holes, I'm sure they've done it before.

as captain jack sparrow always said , take what you can get and give nothing back

Quote from: eNTROPY on June 01, 2010, 09:08:39 PM
as captain jack sparrow always said , take what you can get and give nothing back

oooh  I like you :) movie quotes? johnny depp movie quotes...

highfive!

"And wuv, twu wuv, will fowow you foweva..."

Oops, wrong topic.  :D

Quote from: jmaxley on June 01, 2010, 09:28:48 PM
"And wuv, twu wuv, will fowow you foweva..."

Oops, wrong topic.  :D

princess bride?

Quote from: Elijah on June 01, 2010, 09:30:40 PM
princess bride?

Love that movie.  8)

LOL, I was just watching that movie yesterday.

Anygaaaay my friends had thought that if I want to be seen as a man then I have to give up the advantages given to women/females. That I'm undo-ing progress for myself and trans folks in general...

Just wanted to make sure that I'm not the only one thinking the way I do.

Quote from: Nygeel on June 01, 2010, 09:45:34 PM
Anygaaaay my friends had thought that if I want to be seen as a man then I have to give up the advantages given to women/females. That I'm undo-ing progress for myself and trans folks in general...

You know what? We get screwed all the time by "the system." If I change my sex with my health insurance company, I suddenly can't get the maintenance healthcare I need. But if some women's clinic is willing to do it for a reduced price and I have the parts...okay, I wouldn't go to a women's clinic, but some guys might.

It's your decision. But if you have to flash your ID and your ID has an "F," go for it. I see what your friends are saying, but it's not like you went out of your way to deceive someone; you are legally female.

We get few enough advantages as it is.

Quote from: Arch on June 01, 2010, 10:57:05 PM
You know what? We get screwed all the time by "the system." If I change my sex with my health insurance company, I suddenly can't get the maintenance healthcare I need. But if some women's clinic is willing to do it for a reduced price and I have the parts...okay, I wouldn't go to a women's clinic, but some guys might.

It's your decision. But if you have to flash your ID and your ID has an "F," go for it. I see what your friends are saying, but it's not like you went out of your way to deceive someone; you are legally female.

We get few enough advantages as it is.

That was my sort of view of it. The whole binary view of things screws us all over so we should be able to take advantage of whatever we can.

You know you're male, your friends know you're male, we know you're male.  But unfortunately the government and your ID still says you are F. So WTF go with it.  We get screwed over enough as it is.

I did it with regards to my hysto when I had just started T, and I did it again so insurance covered a mammogram and EKG even though my ID at that time was M, I purposely didn't change my insurance over until after.

So if a bar wants to give free drinks to people with an F on their ID, let them.

Jay

psh I went to the club on ladies night to get in free until I started getting facial hair. screw it, go for it

I think there's a lot more opportunity for us to feel guilty about this sort of thing than there is for the MTFs, because on those rare occasions when society confers an advantage on female-bodied people it tends to do so loudly and publicly. That, added to the fact that we can go full-time sooner with fewer repercussions, means that we're going to find ourselves in these situations sometimes.

In contrast, the ladies' transition process is such that they might spend years going 'part-time', benefiting economically and socially from male privilege, but being unaware of it because male privilege is handed out much more quietly than free drinks on ladies' night. And I don't think any of us would say that an early-transition trans woman is wrong if she allows herself to be read as male at work or at a job interview, even though the economic benefit of that is a heck of a lot more than a few $8 cocktails.

Meh, I probably wouldn't do it. Hurts my ego to claim to be female myself for whatever reason. That's just me though, to each his own.

Personally, I'd have given him the money and said "Too bad I'm actually a man  :laugh:".

But that's my personal pride. I wouldn't be able to tolerate being seen as female - even if it were to my "advantage". I wouldn't feel right taking both male and female privilege.

I'm just the kinda guy that checks "Male" on job applications that state "Women encouraged to apply" :laugh:.

That said, I don't hold anything against anyone that does. To each their own.

I just figure It isn't worth arguing about their misconception in a bar. I didn't when it went the other way either.

It's called "Integrity". You should try it sometime, you might like it.

Quote from: Wendy1974 on June 02, 2010, 08:51:50 AM
It's called "Integrity". You should try it sometime, you might like it.

We already had this debate before. Integrity is subjective.

Quote from: Lachlann on June 02, 2010, 08:52:44 AM
We already had this debate before. Integrity is subjective.

Lol! Thats exactly what someone without integrity would say! Rofl

To be serious though:

Integrity isn't subjective. Integrity is a concept of consistency of actions, values, methods, measures, principles, expectations and outcomes. The only thing that is subjective about Integrity is the values, principles and expectations involved. Think about that the next time you say "I'm a man" and the next time it would be easier or more beneficial to let people think you are a woman.

Quote from: Wendy1974 on June 02, 2010, 09:09:29 AMThe only thing that is subjective about Integrity is the values, principles and expectations involved.

Then it's subjective based on that alone, which is what I'm getting at. Everyone has a different idea or exceptions as to how they want to be accepted in this world. Not all of them are offended by the same treatment.

To me, they shouldn't even be doing free drinks or reducing it based on what's between your legs. If that's what they want to treat me like, then their loss.

Quote from: Wendy1974 on June 02, 2010, 08:51:50 AM
It's called "Integrity". You should try it sometime, you might like it.

So, does that mean my whole life up until transition was without integrity?  That the whole in-between phase where I was read as F, and my legal ID pegged me as F, I was without integrity if I used the ladies' room?

We already deny ourselves so much, as does society.  I fail to see how a pre-transition transperson is abusing any system or lacks integrity by taking advantage of something offered their birth sex when visually and legally they still look like their birth sex.


Jay

But he says he's living his life as a male for the past few years now Jay, thats the difference. I asked my room mate for his opinion (he's ftm) and he said:

"I am a guy and why would i even want to be acknowledged as female??  I find it weird.  Are you or are you not  male??"

Thats where I stand too. He asked for our opinions and I've given mine and my reasons for them. If you guys disagree then more power to you but I would not be comfortible trying to pass as a guy to recieve male privilige no matter how much easier that would make my life thanks. I'd rather be treated like a man in a dress then be treated like a man.

Quote from: Wendy1974 on June 02, 2010, 09:50:41 AMI'd rather be treated like a man in a dress then be treated like a man.

That's not much of a difference...

Personally I wouldn't take advantage of it. Mainly cause I can't stand the thought of anyone seeing me anything except male. I've denied housing when I was homeless in a shelter on the basis that I knew I was male, and wouldn't put up with being housed with females. That's how stubborn I am.

Quote from: Lachlann on June 02, 2010, 09:58:47 AM
That's not much of a difference...

Wow! If thats what you really think then that is sad. You obviously have no idea what you are talking about.

Quote from: Wendy1974 on June 02, 2010, 10:14:23 AM
Wow! If thats what you really think then that is sad. You obviously have no idea what you are talking about.

If people just see you as a man in a dress, they're not going to think that you're female or have a female identity.

Personally (my opinion only), when I was pre-everything, I was still F.  Even though I was presenting as male, everyone else in the world read me as F.  That, to me, is not really living as male.  Living as male means your ID is male.  If you are pre-everything and your ID says MALE, yet you are read as F, then by all means correct people.  But if you go around public spaces and into businesses, you can declare you are male, but if your ID says F, it will out you, and thus,  you are not recognized as male in society.  Period.  Sux but saying you're male and actually being legally male are two different things.

That in-between stage sux big time.  Been there, done that, hated it.  And if the world was only going to recognize me as F, because I looked F, and had ID that said I was F, then me claiming to be male wasn't going to change anyone's mind at all.


We can agree to disagree.  I see no problem with the OP taking a free drink because his ID says F.


Jay

Quote from: Lachlann on June 02, 2010, 10:16:10 AM
If people just see you as a man in a dress, they're not going to think that you're female or have a female identity.

I agree, and if a person is seen as a man in a dress they still might get a lot of the benefits that men/people passing as male get.

For me, it wasn't even as if I tried to be more female/feminine than I am. I'm just read as a masculine woman the overwhelming majority of the time.

I say screw society. Even though my gender marker isn't changed yet (which I'm getting that paperwork filled out in two weeks), I still correct people, even doctors, when they get it wrong. It's not my fault that they're not in my world and don't see me as male.

Quote from: Nygeel on June 02, 2010, 11:11:55 AM
I agree, and if a person is seen as a man in a dress they still might get a lot of the benefits that men/people passing as male get.

I'm not even going to bother trying to explain to you what is wrong with that statement. Obviously neither you nor Lachlann are capable of getting it even if I tried. Enjoy having your cake and eating it too... or at least trying to.

Quote from: Nygeel on June 01, 2010, 08:53:02 PM
Is it necessarily a bad thing to take advantage of things typically reserved to women?

I expect that this post will inspire a great deal of unnecessary pathos, but the question calls for an honest answer.  I hope that this response will serve to provide some practical benefit to you.

Regardless of what moral or legal justifications or valuations are crafted to underlie the practice, womanhood is legally and socially defined to men as privilege.  Whether from government programs, employment laws, quotas, media attention, drinks and meals, college admissions, or even homeless shelters, women may choose to avail themselves of what men provide.  By the pretense of victimhood and pseudo-academic language ('-ism,' 'system,' and 'society' are my personal favorites), and by the use of legally and socially enforced speech codes, women may choose to deny accountability.  To use your sex to gain what you did not earn, or to portray yourself as a victim above reproach, is to publicly and explicitly endorse your womanhood.

If I knew a young person who claimed to be male and then deliberately availed herself of female privilege, I would take that as a public declaration that she nevertheless considers herself to be a woman.

That having been said, I agree that any transman probably deserves a free drink.  The bars don't offer them, though.

- N

Quote from: Wendy1974 on June 02, 2010, 12:22:47 PM
I'm not even going to bother trying to explain to you what is wrong with that statement. Obviously neither you nor Lachlann are capable of getting it even if I tried. Enjoy having your cake and eating it too... or at least trying to.

What's there to get? You made a contradictory statement. I'm not attacking your opinion or your stance, but what you're saying isn't helping your argument.

You said you'd rather be seen as a man in a dress than as a man, but that's still being seen as a man. If someone sees you as a guy no matter what you wear, they're going to treat you as one. The dress is irrelevant because they see you as a guy, period.

It's not that you are a guy, because obviously you aren't, but the statement doesn't make any sense because you wouldn't be treated differently. If you pass and/or if you are seen as someone with a female gender identity, then you aren't seen as some man in a dress and therefore people treat you as a woman socially.

If you have a female gender identity, then you are not some man in a dress. The problem is, not everyone passes and doesn't realize that.

I don't pass. I identify as male and have for a few years now, but I know at a single glance I'm read as female. If someone offered me a cheapo drink on ladies night I would roll my eyes, but take it, figuring it's the world's little way of making up for all the Ma'ams I've had to deal with all day. I would laugh it off later and call it a day.

If I passed even a fraction of the time, however, I probably would have corrected him.

Then again, I don't even drink and don't think there's a special day where they give a discount to people with vajayjays for cups of icewater. I spose my point is moot.

Boo.

Quote from: Lachlann on June 02, 2010, 12:53:10 PM
What's there to get? You made a contradictory statement. I'm not attacking your opinion or your stance, but what you're saying isn't helping your argument.

You said you'd rather be seen as a man in a dress than as a man, but that's still being seen as a man. If someone sees you as a guy no matter what you wear, they're going to treat you as one. The dress is irrelevant because they see you as a guy, period.

It's not that you are a guy, because obviously you aren't, but the statement doesn't make any sense because you wouldn't be treated differently. If you pass and/or if you are seen as someone with a female gender identity, then you aren't seen as some man in a dress and therefore people treat you as a woman socially.

If you have a female gender identity, then you are not some man in a dress. The problem is, not everyone passes and doesn't realize that.

A good part of male privilege is being respected as a male by other males. Men in dresses are not respected, but don't get the benefits women do either. Rejected by both groups.

Lachlann I hate to tell you this but if people think you are a man in a dress they don't extend you male privilige and they do treat you differently then they treat a "man". I'm done with this conversation.

Quote from: SilverFang on June 02, 2010, 01:01:42 PM
A good part of male privilege is being respected as a male by other males. Men in dresses are not respected, but don't get the benefits women do either. Rejected by both groups.

You're absolutely correct, that does happen.

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Post Merge: June 02, 2010, 01:07:40 PM

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Quote from: Wendy1974 on June 02, 2010, 01:05:08 PM
Lachlann I hate to tell you this but if people think you are a man in a dress they don't extend you male privilige and they do treat you differently then they treat a "man". I'm done with this conversation.

Then why not explain that instead? I don't get why you're acting this why, I haven't been rude at all to you.

I figure if I offer to pay and they refuse, why argue. I know a few men who have done the same. As to men getting free drinks, one bar I go to has the policy that if you are in a skirt, your first and fifth drink is free. I see men is kilts and skirts there just for the drinks. It was intended to bring in a higher class crowd, it just didn't work that way. I never wore a skirt to get a drink there, never will.

Rowan, I agree. If I passed half of the time or a quarter of the time then I would most likely refuse.

Hmm...I wonder what this topic would be if I identified as gender queer...

Quote from: Wendy1974 on June 02, 2010, 09:09:29 AM
Lol! Thats exactly what someone without integrity would say! Rofl

To be serious though:

Integrity isn't subjective. Integrity is a concept of consistency of actions, values, methods, measures, principles, expectations and outcomes. The only thing that is subjective about Integrity is the values, principles and expectations involved. Think about that the next time you say "I'm a man" and the next time it would be easier or more beneficial to let people think you are a woman.

I guess this means you are consistent about not documenting your sources. ::)

Seriously, I see where you're coming from, and if (pre-T) I had been the one being offered the drink, I don't think I would have taken it. But I think it's pretty dogmatic to say/imply that people have no integrity if they say they identify as men but sometimes take advantage of benefits extended only to women. It really depends on where you draw the line and how you define yourself and your goals. A guy might figure, "You assume that I have female anatomy, and I do. I identify as male, but I'll take the drink." He might think, "I've had a long day, and I don't want to argue with these people." He might figure, "I'm in the gray area right now; I'll keep the eight bucks and put it into my surgery fund."

People like us fall into that gray area all the time. For example, I avail myself of "benefits for females/women" on a regular basis because I am still female on my health insurance and still have female parts. Last year, I used my insurance to cover a pre-op mammogram even though I was on T and living full-time (hadn't changed any documents yet, though). Automatic biannual mammograms are a benefit for women only, and I took advantage of it.

I am now legally male outside of my health insurance, but I still use my insurance to cover checkups for "female stuff." Pap smears are a benefit extended only to "women." I'm hoping that I can keep the insurance, and stay female on it, until I can get a hysto covered. I'm not fully happy with the state of affairs, but I'm in the gray zone now. I'm willing to work with what I've got.

Definitions and labels can quickly become a trap. If we become too dogmatic about applying them and using them to limit people, we miss out on some of the wonders of life. Like "the pregnant man." (Okay, wait, I didn't mean that...)

Quote from: Nygeel on June 01, 2010, 09:45:34 PM
Anygaaaay my friends had thought that if I want to be seen as a man then I have to give up the advantages given to women/females. That I'm undo-ing progress for myself and trans folks in general...

Just wanted to make sure that I'm not the only one thinking the way I do.

I didn't ask to be born with a 23 inch waist and an ass as wide as Texas packing a vagina along with the ride.  Ergo, until I can pass, I'll just accept whatever title I am given, pre-T.  You didn't murder someone's child or something.  You just didn't make an ass of yourself, "Well, I have a medical condition, so you insulted me..."  You did the right thing in not being a goddamn baby about being a transperson.  You don't pass right now.  That's fine, and you know there are benefits and deficits of that.  You're not going to be the first guy they ask to help do heavy lifting, but you may get a free drink.  It balances out in the end.

I haven't paid for my own drinks in a bar for....well...ever. I'm poor, I want to get drunk, so I doll myself up a bit and take advantage of people who are willing to buy me drinks. I won't have my femininity forever, may as well flaunt it while I've got it.

I've only been to a bar presenting male once, I spent a fortune and ended up in a fight because someone was feeling up the girl I was with.

I'll take dressing in drag for the free drinks any day over fights and an empty wallet :P

And hell, when I do completely pass, I'll hope there are some nice boys in the gay bars who are still willing to buy me drinks, because I'm cheap like that :D

Quote from: Wendy1974 on June 02, 2010, 12:22:47 PM
I'm not even going to bother trying to explain to you what is wrong with that statement. Obviously neither you nor Lachlann are capable of getting it even if I tried. Enjoy having your cake and eating it too... or at least trying to.

I'm not sure about this whole 'men in dresses will get same benefits as men' business. Personally, the concept of being a semi-passing MtF is absolutely horrifying to me. The homo and transphobia in this world causes this. Furthermore, many men who are even remotely effeminate are treated horribly. This same environment you says for them isn't really there socially, though it maybe there in other cases. For me, that would make all the difference in the world. If I was a semi-passing MtF in my town and not a semi-passing FtM, like I am, I'd be afraid for my life.