Susan's Place Transgender Resources

I'm very atheist so I can't really understand this. How can you be happy for the body that god gave you? How can you be religious when there's religious groups that hate on us?

I am not Christian, but I do believe in the Goddess.

I believe that this life is a personal chalenge issued to us by the gods/demons as a learning oportunity for our eternal souls.

Also not all religions or even all christian churches are anti trans.

Being religious doesn't automatically make one happy with what gave you.

Because there are religious groups that accept LGBT members. They're usually the ones that realize that all the passages in the bible about 'homosexuality' and such, aren't really about that. There's also nothing really about transsexuals in there, the only thing that comes close is a passage about it is the whole clothing thing... which had more to do with men dressing up as women to get away from wars and women dressing as men to get into them.

Jesus also pretty much came along and denounced a lot of things too. I don't think he intended for a religion, I think he intended for people to simply not be so zealous and not persecute people like they were. He was all about hanging with those who 'sinned'.

God also doesn't meddle in mortal affairs anymore. So it's not him that messed things up, it's just the course of natural error. The whole, "If God exists, then why was there an earthquake in Haiti or this in X place" arguments don't really work because he's backed off from these things a long time ago.

I'm not particularly religious myself, for other reasons, but I don't think a couple of religious groups that hate on a certain type of person should scare someone away from all religion.

I am a Christian.  I managed to come to terms with the issues.

Sarah L.

Quote from: Amy on June 04, 2010, 09:46:55 AM
I'm very atheist so I can't really understand this. How can you be happy for the body that god gave you? How can you be religious when there's religious groups that hate on us?

There are groups claiming to represent all sorts of religions who behave is disgraceful ways.

There is no justification in Jesus teaching for any sort of hatred.

I can be happy with everything God gave me. But it's up to me to do the best I can with it. God didn't tell me to pull my teeth, but it sure beats toothache.

Same as anyone else can.

I'm not an atheist because I'm trans, or because I'm angry, or because I'm feeling sorry for myself, or because I feel wronged by religion, or because I hate religious people. I'm an atheist because I don't believe in a god or gods, never have, and likely never will, because I seem to be just as constitutionally incapable of believing in deities as I am incapable of being a girl or being attracted to girls (and I've tried all three).

But for people who do believe, being trans is no more an obstacle than being gay or having a chronic illness or a tragic bereavement. Religion gives comfort and purpose to many trans people same as it does to many cis people.

I myself am not religious at all but I am very spiritual and believe in both a God and Goddess.  Quite honestly it doesn't make any sense to me any other way.  I also believe that we choose our path before we get here and we are only here to experience for our soul's advancement and for the God and Goddess.  I also believe that we are an overall product of all of our experiences from all of our lives.  We are also male and female entities on the other side and can choose to come down here to experience the world and go through what we do and overcome those challenges.  Whether it be a female entity in male body (myself) or others who are a male entity in a female body.  Also you can expect if you were the opposite sex in life more than your current one than chances are you are going to be attracted to the same sex in this life.  I don't believe that has to be the case for everyone but we did choose our bodies and what we were going to deal with before we got here.  The Mother and Father God are waiting for us on the other side where nothing but pure happiness and love exist.  I absolutely believe the only hell you will find is the one we live in right now for if the Mother and Father God are absolutely perfect beings than we can't put human characteristics on them and they would never want us to suffer eternally for any reason.

(Not) Having a deity doesn't answer all questions. Does the deity choose imperfection as another kind of perfection? After all; purity creates homogenization; maybe the deity simply chooses to let DNA run haywire, in order to get the best results? Sure; some people get to be the butt of the joke, but that doesn't make it bad, per sé.

Being religious doesn't mean one would assume that the deity/deities of choice simply hand everyone some cards, and some people get a better hand then others. A lot of people believe in a deity that advocates freedom of being (as long as it harms none). Mishaps are a drawback of freedom, after all, but the beauty of it is worth it, to most people.

If a deity exists, who would be as arrogant to claim to understand it? To know how it reasons? To know that would be to know everything, and I don't think anyone would be as arrogant as that...

So for the rest of us: I think religion is for those of us who believe. There is no moral reason to follow a religion. There is a myriad of psychological reasons to follow a religion. And then there's simple, pure faith.

I do not really accept dogmatic religions, but I do have a very deep spiritual connection to something "out there".

In a clinical analysis, this condition is just like many other birth defects.  Neither praising or damning to the random quantum fluctuations that occurred when my parents DNA combined to form me.

Would I hate G(g)od(dess) if I were born with a club foot?  Should I despise that which passeth all understanding because I was not born perfect?  Hardly.

I don't particularly believe in predestination or being given an earthly task to do.  But I do know that not everyone can carry the burden of this blessing inside a curse.

We endure, we survive.  For whatever reason, we are here.  To search for a reason, an excuse, someone to blame it on, in the end really serves no purpose.  You can't go back and unmake your life.  You have arrived here because of the conditions in your life and your reaction to them.  All that you can do is go on from here.

I participate in a dogmatic religion because I am accepted there and I do enjoy communion and fellowship with my neighbors.  Some know about me, some don't, all of them don't care.

-Sandy

In an almost bizarre twist of fate, fundamentalist Islam has no problem with transsexualism or srs, it does however decree that homosexuality should be punishable by death, and this kind of thinking (particulaly in Iran) can lead to gay men having srs due to external pressures despite the fact that they are not transsexual. I have seen bits in the bible to suggest that christianity is not particulaly anti trans either, but it is more like stuff about God only caring about the inner soul and not the external body and some stuff about eunarchs. To be honest, I think that it's all a load of old tosh but that's just my opinion. Although if you actually read any of the gospels then I think that Jesus said some pretty cool things. Seems to bear very little similarity to the rubbish spouted by modern christians though. Can't wait for the rapture so that there are a lot less of them around :laugh: :laugh:

I've found that too many people in general are quite at peace with hypocrisy, ƃuıxǝʌ.  ;)
Yes, I agree with the doing-what-you-can-with-what-you've-got approach. Your body is not ideal, but I reckon that a benevolent God would not begrudge you doing what must be done about it. I do not think that living your life trying to act a different persona while trying to deal with your body not being right is in God's plan at all! At the basis of most religions is this: 'be a good person'. How can you do that if you are not a person at all, just an act of one? (I'm not sure if that sentence was grammatically correct, it looks clumsy...)
Also, where are all the Christians here? I thought we had quite a few around...?

not all religions /religious people condone transsexualism .
and weather it was God , nature ,coincidence , or seamonkeys  that caused (e.g) my existence , the fact is there *are* a lot of things that i'm no happy about (no only body) and what makes me unhappy should/would only be changed by me , so religious or not it's my own life and my own happiness , no one else is affected by it , so i don't care what anyone/thing else think about my pursuit of happiness , that's what i used to think when i was religious , and that's what i think now that i'm agnostic

I find it rather strange when people assume that everything has to be perfect, therefore, anything less than perfection must be God's fault.

Perhaps I should be asking, why do you think everything has to be perfect?

What exactly is perfect?

In a perfect world, we would all have perfect bodies and never get sick. There would be no war, no poverty, no natural disasters.

The problem of a booming birth rate would also be perfection since most of us would die of utter boredom.

Quote from: spacial on June 06, 2010, 03:37:02 AM
I find it rather strange when people assume that everything has to be perfect, therefore, anything less than perfection must be God's fault.

Perhaps I should be asking, why do you think everything has to be perfect?

What exactly is perfect?

In a perfect world, we would all have perfect bodies and never get sick. There would be no war, no poverty, no natural disasters.

The problem of a booming birth rate would also be perfection since most of us would die of utter boredom.

nah, in a perfect world, population control would be a natural phenomena, like after a kid or 2, your body becomes infertile, or something along those lines.

Easy.  As Galileo said, "The Bible tells me how to go to Heaven, not how the Heavens go". The same principal can be applied to every aspect of life, including GID.  Christian faith is not complicated, but some people seem to want to make it so.

Jesus message is about abolishing the artificial barriers that prevent people from connecting, and breaking down hierarchies. If someone is using the Bible to push a particular barrow, they are probably being selective in their use of the Old Testament, or putting the Letters of St Paul, for instance, above Jesus parables and other "direct" quotes.

Either way they are building walls, not pulling them down, and have missed the point completely. I pity them for leading stunted lives.

Quote from: spacial on June 06, 2010, 03:37:02 AM
I find it rather strange when people assume that everything has to be perfect, therefore, anything less than perfection must be God's fault.

Perhaps I should be asking, why do you think everything has to be perfect?

What exactly is perfect?

In a perfect world, we would all have perfect bodies and never get sick. There would be no war, no poverty, no natural disasters.

The problem of a booming birth rate would also be perfection since most of us would die of utter boredom.

Well according to the Bible it is, kind of. All was perfect in Eden until Adam ate the apple. Leading to God unleashing disease, ageing, natural disaster etc. You can pin it on Adam for succumbing to temptation or on God for unleashing it.

Either way the explanation for how God the perfect being can only create a perfect creation makes sense in my eyes. If you are a perfect being, 100% perfect in every way. Then how could that which you make not be perfect also? After all all that you make is a reflection of yourself, creating an imperfect thing shows you to be imperfect. Virtue of your flawed ability in creating that imperfect thing.

However in my opinion the whole lets put an apple there, create a snake to tempt them and then unleash "hell" upon them if they succumb to it. Questions the perfection of his moral values.

By the way I am not religious, agnosticism is the only philosophical defencible position in my eyes. It is non-comittal :D

That's only if you look at the Western Churches though.
As I understand it, the Orthodox have a different interpretation of the Garden of Eden story, and are working from the Greek Bible, not the King James or RC translations.

When you look at it like that, you realise that we have based a whole society on a story about a talking snake conning some guy into eating an apple ??? ??? ??? ???

Is that really the best we can do?

Well of course the whole thing is a metaphor.

But even if it is a metaphor God set up the temptation trap somehow!

Quote from: MillieB on June 06, 2010, 07:56:43 AM
When you look at it like that, you realise that we have based a whole society on a story about a talking snake conning some guy into eating an apple ??? ??? ??? ???

Is that really the best we can do?

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.michaeltotten.com%2Farchives%2Fimages%2FGeorge%2520W%2520Bush.jpg&hash=a35eada6d8f32e97e44f7057013909e958ed8a04)

And your point is?

-Sandy

Either way, if there's an all powerful, all knowing, omnipresent god, who is the one and only creator of "all" things in existence... well.. then that god created not just the good and the bad, but he also created what lead to the bad.
I mean..


If god creates every tiny aspect of a being, including all it's instincts and all, as well as every tiny aspect of the being's surroundings, does the being have "free" will?
Does it have "any" chance of overcoming the influences of it's own nature, it's surroundings and.. well.. "everything"?

QuoteIf god creates every tiny aspect of a being, including all it's instincts and all, as well as every tiny aspect of the being's surroundings, does the being have "free" will?
Does it have "any" chance of overcoming the influences of it's own nature, it's surroundings and.. well.. "everything"?

The answer is, of course, 42. :P

Quote from: Dryad on June 06, 2010, 06:35:40 PM
The answer is, of course, 42. :P

Ditto

Quote from: LordKAT on June 06, 2010, 06:58:34 PM
Ditto

Then the answer would then be 84...

-Sandy

Why is everyone basing religion against transgenders and homosexuals? The question is : Why can't we be religious just cause we're transgendered? It's exactly as a murderer or a rapist (or any sinner for that matter) who are religious. We sin but we still believe in God. I think it's quiet natural, it's a feeling you get in your heart and nobody is perfect so we can't follow through every guideline that's written in the bible. We are ALL sinners in someway.

We can't blame God for being transgendered. There is always a reason for something and I'm sure we are transgendered for a reason. It could be a personal challenge? It could be that God wanted us to be in a different body so we know how the other gender feels or what they go through. We should be grateful we have the opportunity to be who we want to be and overcome this barrier. If God was to abandon us, there wouldn't be a 'cure' for our 'disease', would it? Everything has a purpose and I strongly believe that before we were brought into this world, God has already planned our destiny and our life.


I was raised as a christian but I am converting to muslim one day.

Stone children to death...turn page
Kill those that work on the sabbath...turn page
Kill your wife if she is on her period on your wedding night...turn page
ah, yes...kill homosexuals

Quote from: Miniar on June 06, 2010, 08:32:07 AM
Either way, if there's an all powerful, all knowing, omnipresent god, who is the one and only creator of "all" things in existence... well.. then that god created not just the good and the bad, but he also created what lead to the bad.
I mean..


If god creates every tiny aspect of a being, including all it's instincts and all, as well as every tiny aspect of the being's surroundings, does the being have "free" will?
Does it have "any" chance of overcoming the influences of it's own nature, it's surroundings and.. well.. "everything"?

Yes.

And this raises the question about the nature of right and wrong.

Our point of view is heavly based upon punishment for wrong.

If hell doesn't exist, then the notion of punishment suffers. Which in turn, calls into question, the notion of right and wrong.

Now if we accept the perpetual existance of the soul, then its destiny, after being freed from material existance needs to be considered.

Most, in our tradition, see the soul as an individual entity, endowed with self awareness and integrated into relationships with each other and our environment. That when we die, our individual memories and exeperiences will continue with each of us.

Jehovah's Witnesses, for example, don't believe in traditional hell. They claim that, those who have lived according to God's commandments, which they have chosen to expand, to encompas the whole Bible, will dwell near God, while those who have chosen not to, will dwell furthest. They claim this is the predicted anguish.

The Hindus on the other hand view God as a single, all encompasing entity. That each of us is part of that entity, but for various reasons, we have broken away. Such is the pain we individually feel that we have created the illusion of materialism. We are continually reborn into material existance because we have lost the awareness of the Godhead. Only by becoming aware, once again, of the Godhead and our part of it, can we die. Once we rejoin the Godhead, we will cease to exist as individuals.

Most Anglicans, certainly high church, take a perspective similar to the Hindu, while maintainting the individuality of the soul. Namely, that we will rejoin with the Godhead. Anglican notions of hell are somewhat moot.

But, from our perspective, it does raise the issue of morality. Are moral precepts handed down by a god?

The pure Christian notion, based upon the teachings of Jesus, is that we are each individually responsible for our own souls. We are commanded to abide by the Commandments, which are 10 basic rules, few could argue with. But none has the authority to judge anyone else.

One the other extreme, again within the same tradition, is Islam with its extensive body of immutable laws, all of which are imposed by and judged by those appointed by acclimation.

In between we have the politico-christians, such as the SBU. Though, for many, these are more political movements, much like the cult of personality practiced in N Korea.

There are also the Roman Catholics and perhaps, Mormons, with their ambitions of political influence.

It is however, interesting that those that preach the notion of hell and judgement are those thst seek to assume authority and benefit materially from it.

Quote from: accord03 on June 25, 2010, 04:49:10 AM
Why is everyone basing religion against transgenders and homosexuals? The question is : Why can't we be religious just cause we're transgendered? It's exactly as a murderer or a rapist (or any sinner for that matter) who are religious. We sin but we still believe in God.

I regect your violent assertion on my soul that I am a sinner. Maybe it would be better to say 'we christians believe we are sinners'.
Personaly I take it as an assault on my identity for anyone to make a blanket statement all have sinned. Please refrain from labbeling all people sinners. I am not a sinner.

Hahaha okay then!

Answer me a few questions if you claim to not be a sinner cause everyone is. No one is perfectly flawless and have followed through all the guidelines of being the perfect child for God.


Did you have sex before marriage?

Did you ever lie?

Quote from: accord03 on June 25, 2010, 08:20:25 AM
Did you have sex before marriage?
Did you ever lie?

As I do not have Christian beliefs and my mother and father made me promise to have sex with a prospective lover before marriage that is not a sin to me. (they were afraid I was gay and would marry a woman just to make society happy) Also I am polyamourous and in an open relationship, so don't run to adultry to see if you can pin that on me, it is imposible for me to comit adultry.
Lieing is only a sin when it brings pain or stress to anouther. If a lie spares someones feelings or prevents conflict then it is just fine and dandy.
You have to remember that not everyone has the same set of morals. Not all of us care to be measured by someone elses yard stick.
By the standards of my faith I am curently doing very well. I am free of sin and I get reincarnated regardless of my lifepath I follow now.

Quote from: accord03 on June 25, 2010, 08:20:25 AM
Hahaha okay then!

Answer me a few questions if you claim to not be a sinner cause everyone is. No one is perfectly flawless and have followed through all the guidelines of being the perfect child for God.


Did you have sex before marriage?

Did you ever lie?

I am an atheist and therefore can't be a sinner. Just because you believe in a higher power doesn't mean I do. And just because that higher power tells you I am a sinner it is only your perception that I am one. If a crazy person walking down the street hears a voice saying "She is the devil". In his mind I am the devil but in reality I am not. It is only his perception.

I don't think cynthilee is denying she is a sinner. I personally don't see myself as a sinner, but rather as flawed.

However, the point I'm sure that is being made is that being transgendered isn't a sin. It's what we are.

Incidently, there is no commandment against sex before marriage. The only commandment relating to sexual matters is against adultry.

No, I am denying I am a sinner. I am not. Such a thing is almost impossible to me.
For me to sin would require me intentionaly inflicting stress or pain on anouther sentient soul, without regard to the cause or results, or the intentional harming of self.

Understood cynthialee.

Can't say as I disagree with your position.

Quote from: cynthialee on June 25, 2010, 08:41:41 AM
No, I am denying I am a sinner. I am not. Such a thing is almost impossible to me.
For me to sin would require me intentionaly inflicting stress or pain on anouther sentient soul, without regard to the cause or results, or the intentional harming of self.

I am sure you have caused stress or strain on another human being. People can't always watch what they say or maybe you have offended them by your facial expressions or tone. Maybe, I am concluding this cause I believe in God and I know that everyone is a sinner.

Btw, are you trying to say that you're perfect?

I never said I was perfect. I just refuse to be measured by christian standards.  I live my life without blame. Also if some take offence to what I have done or am doing then that is on them. I am not required to live my life to impress or satisfy anouther.

As I pointed out earlier, and in another thread, the Eastern Christian Churches have a very different idea of the concept of sin. The very idea of "Original Sin" is unknown in the Western sense. 
I am no expert but my understanding is that the modern Western position has drifted considerably from the time the Orthodox and Catholic Churches split.

A lot of American Protestants also appear to have adopted a literalist approach that dates from the early 1900's, and has no precedent in earlier traditions at all.

In many ways American fundamentalists seem to have become some sort of neo-Zoroastrians, with their emphasis on Good vs Evil, belief in angels and lots of other aspects that just look strange to many foreigners.

I think you're denying this whole "I'm not a sinner" is because you don't believe in God but I do so I am going to state my opinion and put religion standards on people.

To me, everyone is a sinner and I'm sure people who believe in religion would agree to that.

You are pretty much saying you're "perfect" because you keep on denying you haven't done any faults in life.
Faults are sins. Whether it is a very bad thing or not so bad but it is still a sin.

I get the impression that most people don't know the fundimentals.

Many seem to think original sin was sex. Most don't know what Jesus taught and I'm regularly surprised that most don't seem to know what the commandments say.

I personally think the churches have a lot to answer for here. They spend most of their time trying to make themselves powerful and influential and practically none on teaching.

The American churches are probably some of the worst. They appear to be intensly political. I have a niece who was in a happy clappy church for a while. Some of the stuff she came out with was quite extraordinary. When she did finally leave and we discussed some of these notions, it was clear she had been fed with cherry picked quotes, being told they mean this or that.

Why can't you simply pass up atheists? Aren't there plenty of religious people you can "put religion standards on "?

I used to go to a baptist church. I stopped going because I could not follow what they told me. I kept reading the word of God because I wanted to know why I was this way. one verse come to my mind when I asked the question "why did you make me this way?."

the disciples asked what did the parents do to make this man to be born blind. Jesus said that the parents did not do anything to make this man born blind. He was born blind so that the glory of God could be seen.

respect how others think no matter what. I am rejected by churches because they still can't see. could it be that they are blind for God's glory. they are blind, but through their blindness I see.

respect what an atheist says or anyone else's for that matter. I wanted to walk a way from God. But I remember that he sees me for who I am.  why would I walk a way from the only other person that knows me for me.

thank for just one minute how you feel about being a women in a man's body and no one believes you or vise versa. Believe it or not God is in the same boat because the body (church) is working against the way he feels.

God's grace is over everyone that has been pushed away by religion. even if you don't know it. even if you don't believe it or even can't believe it.

beside why would anyone want to know someone that rank worser than Hitler for mass murder. This is the God that churches show us.

the wheat 99% tares 1% How much of the world is God going to save? 

I believe Saint Thomas Aquinas, though it could have been another major Christian, said that it was up to the person to decide which part to follow in the face of hypocrisy.  He showed the different conflicting parts in the Bible, and then he left it up to the reader to figure out which part was right and which wasn't.  He also said that the errors were scribal errors and not due to God.  People make mistakes when it comes to writing, so it was only natural for a human scribe to make mistakes when copying the word of God or originally writing down the word of God.

Anyway, I identify as loosely Catholic.  I have no issue with it because I don't follow the bastardized version of the teachings and head back towards when Christianity first arose and really wasn't considered a part of Christianity and was considered just another part of Judaism.  I also have a tendency to prefer the God in the Old Testament, but I don't like the notion of a "good" god.  I prefer a god who isn't afraid to stand up for what he feels.  I also mix in the Buddhist way of life and then I mix in Anubis into my system.  So far I have not had any issues.

Well, I'm done with the rant.  To me, it makes no sense for God to hate or condemn people that he supposedly made.  He would have made you in what he thought was the proper way, and that being trans is just a challenge that he set for us to overcome.

Quote from: Dana Lane on June 26, 2010, 12:00:03 PM
Why can't you simply pass up atheists? Aren't there plenty of religious people you can "put religion standards on "?

I'm not aware of anyone here trying to put anything onto anyone.

I am Southern Baptist, and a born again christian. I believe God made me how I am. And there is nothing in the entire bible to say that transgender is wrong. I am slightly asexual, as I have never really wanted to have sex. But I do love the companionship of a relationship with people. And my girlfriend I love with all my heart!

I will continue to love God despite what some people think about it. And surprisingly my church has no objections at this point.

Quote from: CrazyTina on June 26, 2010, 02:43:07 PM
I am Southern Baptist, and a born again christian. I believe God made me how I am. And there is nothing in the entire bible to say that transgender is wrong. I am slightly asexual, as I have never really wanted to have sex. But I do love the companionship of a relationship with people. And my girlfriend I love with all my heart!

I will continue to love God despite what some people think about it. And surprisingly my church has no objections at this point.

So you have a girlfriend? Does that make you gay? Because they most definitely have words in the bible about that!

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Quote from: spacial on June 26, 2010, 01:06:29 PM
I'm not aware of anyone here trying to put anything onto anyone.

I was quoting accord03.

Quote from: Dana Lane on June 26, 2010, 02:45:48 PM
So you have a girlfriend? Does that make you gay? Because they most definitely have words in the bible about that!

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I was quoting accord03.

The parts of the Bible which make any claims about any sexual matters, apart from adultry, were abrogated by Jesus.

In short, they don't count.

Apologies for #45

Why does a large portion of this thread read as if religious = christian?

Quote from: Miniar on June 26, 2010, 04:46:58 PM
Why does a large portion of this thread read as if religious = christian?

At a guess, perhaps because this is the Christinity forum.

Quote from: spacial on June 26, 2010, 05:19:42 PM
At a guess, perhaps because this is the Christinity forum.

This.  It's why I was coming from a Christian standpoint because this is the Christianity forum.

The subject of this thread is posing the question : How can transgendered people be religious? posted in the Christianty forum.

It is presumed that this question is asking the question from a Christian perspective.

All I can say, from a Christian perspective, is that I, as a Christian, am responsible for my own soul. I will answer only once.

I as a Christian feel no trouble in my conscience, with my own feelings, nor with encourageing others. (Though never going beyond encouragement of decisions already taken).

If I am asked for my textual justification I will point out that the only Commandment dealing with sexual matters is a prohibition on adultry. (Like all of the commandments, I really can't see any reasonable person, of any conscience, finding anything to disagree with here).

Quote from: Amy on June 04, 2010, 09:46:55 AM
I'm very atheist so I can't really understand this. How can you be happy for the body that god gave you?

As a Christian, i do not accept the premise.

god didn't "give me this body" any more than he gave a Downs Syndrome baby their disability.

I believe we live in a fallen world where bad things happen - including birth defects.

QuoteHow can you be religious when there's religious groups that hate on us?

Can't blame the god because the followers are screw-ups. According to my faith system, it's BECAUSE we are so screwed up that we needed a savior.

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Quote from: Seras on June 06, 2010, 07:58:28 AM
Well of course the whole thing is a metaphor.

But even if it is a metaphor God set up the temptation trap somehow!

Have you ever heard it said "how would we know of pleasure if there was no pain?" nd such like?

It's similar to that - if there is no possibility of failure, then how does one define success? if there is not potential for "sin" then how can anyone be said to be "good"?

It is only the real existence of darkness that makes light praiseworthy.

If God had set up a people and a system in which no one could ever do the wrong thing, there would be no such thing as doing the right thing - we'd be automotons, not free beings.

Quote from: Dana Lane on June 26, 2010, 12:00:03 PM
Why can't you simply pass up atheists? Aren't there plenty of religious people you can "put religion standards on "?

Then why are atheists on a Christian thread in a religion section?

This is how. Transgenders who are religious believe in God not the Bible.

Quote from: cynthialee on June 25, 2010, 07:55:56 AM
I regect your violent assertion on my soul that I am a sinner. Maybe it would be better to say 'we christians believe we are sinners'.
Personaly I take it as an assault on my identity for anyone to make a blanket statement all have sinned. Please refrain from labbeling all people sinners. I am not a sinner.

Doesn't that sort of depend on your definition of sin?

for instance....if you consider lying a sin, almost no one would deny they have lied at some point...

Or is it like being a writer? A lot of people write, but few can actually call themselves a writer.

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Post Merge: June 27, 2010, 01:17:28 AM

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Quote from: cynthialee on June 25, 2010, 08:41:41 AM
No, I am denying I am a sinner. I am not. Such a thing is almost impossible to me.
For me to sin would require me intentionaly inflicting stress or pain on anouther sentient soul, without regard to the cause or results, or the intentional harming of self.

ok, cool. that's something to work with.

but let me preface by saying I'm NOT trying to change your mind or define you according to Christian theology....It's just an intellectual exercise here because of the confidence with which you speak.

Would you claim that, in the heat of anger for instance, you have never said to another person  something that was intended to be and was painful for them to hear?

I don't doubt that there are people like that - I'd actually claim that it's very rare that I would do so - but I offer it as an example of how it is possible for a person to violate their own standards. whether or not you feel you are a sinner in the Christian tradition, i find it stunningly hard to believe that anyone could review their own behavior and not see ANY point in which they violated their own ethic of right and wrong.

you might not prefer the use of the word sin, but it's an equivilant idea.

Oh, and by the way, pretty much everything anyone ever posts on a discussion board has an implied "in my opinion" attached to it. when a Christian (for instance) says "all have sinned" it should be read "In my opinion, all have sinned"

A person can only speak from their own worldview, and it doesn't logically follow that the person is insiting that YOU think you are a sinner, they are merely saying that in their own worldview, you have to be by definition.

I don't see the point in taking personal offense at that. so long as no one attempts to impose upon your liberties based on that belief.

Laura Hope pretty much summed up things I wanted to say.

Quote from: ƃuıxǝʌ on June 27, 2010, 08:08:21 PM
'Trangenders' isn't a word.

I made it a word :P

Also, transgendered people was too much to write. (Yes, I'm lazy ;D)

Stope being so sensitive and pendantic vixen.  :D

You know what she meant.

Only French people worry about such things.  :D

I thought it was a step in NZ :D :D

Quote from: ƃuıxǝʌ on June 28, 2010, 05:28:09 AM
What's a stope?  ;D

It's a pointe just outside the shope, where mene and womene ponder on the incomprehensibility of spellinge.

Damm. It's bad enough being dyslexic, but trying to spell things wrongly is even more difficult than trying to do it right.  :D

I got into a conversation once with someone who is a lesbian, but didn't understand transgendered issues in terms of religion. She told me she didn't understand it because she felt that God made us perfect the way we are. I gave her my point of view, which was this.

God doesn't make perfect in terms of how WE see things. We are human, therefore, we are imperfect by nature. What He does is set people on a journey, which is called life. The people who are transgendered, that is part of THEIR/OUR journey. That doesn't make them/us imperfect, it's part of the struggle of being human. It's how we handle that struggle, how we survive and make an impact, that's what the point is. The Bible was written by men, how can we know exactly what God thinks? So He makes people differently because everybody has a different walk of life, and what you encounter in that life is what makes you closer to God in understanding how He sees things. The people you encounter add to this. My life is enriched by meeting people who are different from me, because I learn more about the world we live in and more about different lives.

I am a Christian by faith, but most Christians are ignorant and shameful. God does not want us to conform to His standards. He wants us to live our lives with integrity, honesty, and to do no harm to other human beings. That's basically it. What's wrong with that?

Thanks to all the Transphobic people in the world, I'm afraid I'll go to hell. God wants us to believe in him and serve him so he's probably hacked off at the people out there telling homosexuals and trannsexuals that they are going to hell and turning them away from god.

Quote from: kentrie1994 on September 29, 2010, 12:10:37 AM
Thanks to all the Transphobic people in the world, I'm afraid I'll go to hell. God wants us to believe in him and serve him so he's probably hacked off at the people out there telling homosexuals and trannsexuals that they are going to hell and turning them away from god.

If a god exists, I think this is a very likely scenario:
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fzs1.smbc-comics.com%2Fcomics%2F20100414.gif&hash=bab71cecf25a894f0f082f10c9b07b16f96914fb)

Quote from: kentrie1994 on September 29, 2010, 12:10:37 AM
Thanks to all the Transphobic people in the world, I'm afraid I'll go to hell. God wants us to believe in him and serve him so he's probably hacked off at the people out there telling homosexuals and trannsexuals that they are going to hell and turning them away from god.

It isn't my place to interfere with your beliefs. But I will say this.

There are people who claim that a government funded health service in the US will break several of the 10 Commandments.

There are people who claim that if you don't wear a black tent, pray five times a day and percicely the right time, you will go to hell.

There are people who claim that if you don't submit to the authority of one guy you will go to hell and others who say that you will go to hell if you do,

Perhaps the questions you should be asking yourself is what are these people's motivations?

Then ask yourself why you are listening to any or one of these people.

I'm sorry I can't be of any more help. You have a choice. Personally, when I don't find them tiresum, I think they are really quite funny.

I am an enlightened atheist, myself and wonder why others don't 'wake up'. When you figure out there really isn't a god it is so exhilarating and liberating. No longer do you feel that fake guilt and from then on you can live your life guilt free.

All christians cherry pick the bible to death. Well, except for the crazies in westboro church. They take the bible literally. Everyone says the bible can be interpreted several ways but it still boils down to an angry, jealous mean and nasty god who orders you to kill those around you. Working on the sabbath, kids talking back, wife not a virgin on their wedding night, etc. Kill them all. No matter how you bring the 'new testament' into the debate the god you worship is still a horrible thing.

Quote from: Angel On Acid on June 04, 2010, 09:46:55 AM
I'm very atheist so I can't really understand this. How can you be happy for the body that god gave you? How can you be religious when there's religious groups that hate on us?

did you know that most of the Christian world don't really know God. The bible is filled with info about people saying that they know God,but in all reality they them selve don't know God. They cover themselve with with us pointing out things to make them selve look more holyer then thou type things. I love God because he loves me them that say that God hates me do not know the God of love. Seek out who God is for yourself don't let other tell you who God is. If they hate us they show that they dont love. remember love they neibgourr as theyself. Is God our neibgour? does he keep his own words? Christians say that God loves you just to pull the rug out from under you when you get to close. check the link under this. hope they help.

Quote from: kentrie1994 on September 29, 2010, 12:10:37 AM
Thanks to all the Transphobic people in the world, I'm afraid I'll go to hell. God wants us to believe in him and serve him so he's probably hacked off at the people out there telling homosexuals and trannsexuals that they are going to hell and turning them away from god.

this is what I am talking about. They are left thinking that they know God and cant see that God has walked off from them because they turn others from him. Believe it or not the same thing happen to the jew however, God said that he turned from them (Jew) to make them jealous. God opens the eyes of the blind so he can see the truth and blinds the eyes of them that think that they have the truth. All of them that have been pushed a way from God are free to come to him. lay aside the waight the they put on our back because Christ died to remove what they have laid on us. If he is the truth what other truth is there? It is far from the heart of God to burn anyone in a hell. All thing were created by God through his son Jesus (LOVE ONE ANOTHER) would he have created a place like this? Is God so holy that he cant be around us. Please just go throught the links the answers are there just look for them. stay away from them that dont make peace between you and God.

Many people feel this way! He hears are cries!
How church destroyed my faith but Jesus found me:A tale of coming to universal reconciliation (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l9z38cyQR1A#)

Quote from: Dana Lane on September 29, 2010, 06:28:38 AM
I am an enlightened atheist, myself and wonder why others don't 'wake up'. When you figure out there really isn't a god it is so exhilarating and liberating. No longer do you feel that fake guilt and from then on you can live your life guilt free.

All christians cherry pick the bible to death. Well, except for the crazies in westboro church. They take the bible literally. Everyone says the bible can be interpreted several ways but it still boils down to an angry, jealous mean and nasty god who orders you to kill those around you. Working on the sabbath, kids talking back, wife not a virgin on their wedding night, etc. Kill them all. No matter how you bring the 'new testament' into the debate the god you worship is still a horrible thing.

This may sound strange coming from me. I would have give anything to not believe in God. You are right if this is there God It would be better to not beleive in a God. Cherry picking is one of the things that has made christianity what it is to day. Only one truth, not many. The truth is not found in books it is found in Christ. It is better to be an atheist and reject the lies than to be found among them that God is mad at. Atheist prove there point to me. They dont see any love among them that say they know God. "By this(love) the world will know that I sent thee."

I am a Christian and transgender. There are religious groups that do hate us but not all. God doesn't hate us but in fact created us as we are.

Gennee

:)

You make the assumption that religion is monotheism too easily. :P

I am...between religions right now. I do believe there is a greater power at work in our lives. I used to be LDS before Prop 8 came around, which really sliced deep into my own personal held beliefs, but a lot of it did make sense, so I think that somewhere between all the religions, there is the truth.

So why would a Loving God give us the wrong body? I believe that we are pushed to our very limits in order to grow, and become better for the experience. We were born as such because we can handle it.

Quote from: Astarielle on October 02, 2010, 01:05:19 PM

So why would a Loving God give us the wrong body?

I suggest he didn't.

He gave us what we have and we should use whatever means are available to do our best with it.

First of all I need to state that I am not religious, but when I think of a God I try to think of it in a rational way by wondering what a perfect god would do.
When you look at religions isn't it striking how the word of God is always brought by humans? This led me to the assumption that a lot of religious people are either indoctrinated by what others tell them about God or that they use the scripture to empower their own ideas and prejudices.
You can see this also on the subject of transsexuality. Some religious people resist fiercely against it claiming transpeople are abominations and sinners. But when I got the chance to ask some those persons why they thought it, what the reason behind the claims was they only referred to the Bible. Claiming it was Gods word. They couldn't explain why transsexuality was a sin. In fact it isn't even mentioned in the Bible. One came up to me and told about the law against crossdressing as mentioned in the Bible. He said that is was only logical that if crossdressing was a sin, changing ones sex would also be a sin. On the question why it was a sin he answered that it shocks people who hold traditional values in high regard. And in order to prevent that we all have to live to those values. So he was basically saying that crossdressing and transsexuality is forbidden purely for the fact that it might be offensive for close minded people!
I asked them that if I would be suddenly committing a sin if I decided to wear a skirt in front of them? I asked them if wearing pants or a skirt actually changes who I am as a person. Their answer was that it would indeed be a sin and that I need Jesus' forgiveness for even thinking about it.
Really, people like these almost get me to wearing a skirt...

In a nutshell, the Bible doesn't mention it as a sin, and if it did people can't give a valid reason why it should be one. Instead of listening to people and their prejudices look at yourself: do you feel like you are committing a sin just for who you are? Can you help being who you are? No! We only have the bad luck that we are born in a society where people live with the idea that gender is restricted to sex and that there are only 2 standard types of gender.

So where does God come in the picture? If a perfect God exists you can by simple logic state that everything (s)he creates will also be perfect. That means that biblical sins don't actually exist because everything is created as it should be. But how can a world full of sorrow be part of a divine work? My personal opinion is that you need to know what cold is if you want to experience warmth. You need to know what hate is if you want to feel love. Imagine a world where only love exists. Would you still be able to feel it? When you think about this, the Fall of Men or the knowledge of good and evil is actually the greatest gift ever given to us. We are all here to experience life and with it we figure out for ourselves what a good way to live is. How we should se ourselves and how we should treat others. If you ask me I would say some people are much more mature in this aspect than others.

But then again I am not religious and this was the least unsuccessful of many thought experiments to try to fit a perfect God into this world.

I think one of the big issues that people never consider in thier arguments of diety....What is to say that the god (dess) entity is infalible, perfect and omnipitant?
Perhaps we do have a god model in effect here. From what I have seen if there is a diety, the creature is flawed just like everything is.

Quote from: spacial on October 02, 2010, 05:29:57 PM
I suggest he didn't.

He gave us what we have and we should use whatever means are available to do our best with it.

Isn't that what I just said?

I believe in the Flying Spaghetti Monster.  It's kind of like that religion that belives the world is on the back of a giant turtle, but the FSM just sort of pooped out the universe unintentionally.  Its not even a sentient being, and far from all powerful.  It mostly just kind of lies there going "Dorf!"  So I don't blame it or hate it for making me this way, but I also don't really worship it.  Just kind of pity it really.  And when I'm feeling down, I just look at the pitiful state of the FSM and think, "It could be worse."

Quote from: cynthialee on October 02, 2010, 08:26:53 PM
I think one of the big issues that people never consider in thier arguments of diety....What is to say that the god (dess) entity is infalible, perfect and omnipitant?
Perhaps we do have a god model in effect here. From what I have seen if there is a diety, the creature is flawed just like everything is.

That's a very interesting point.

I'm not a particularly religious person. I feel more agnostic than anything because I can't let go of this feeling that certain things are fate and are a part of some destiny we all have as individuals. My mother, on the other hand, is religious and often times tells me that whether or not god exists I was born with a birth defect that allows me to have a little more compassion for my fellow man. It helps me to be more humble and understanding of all people regardless of race, religion, sexuality, or gender identity. And if there is a god he put me on this path to become a better person.

Sorry to disappoint the people who have given you a hard time Kentrie, but I think it is a fair bet that it is they, not you, who are destined for the nether regions.

If someone says they KNOW absolutely what God is thinking, then they sound like they are committing blasphemy, and are going all the way down!

"Cos it says so in the Bible, and that's good enough for me!" as they would say.

Quote from: Astarielle on October 02, 2010, 01:05:19 PM
You make the assumption that religion is monotheism too easily. :P

I am...between religions right now. I do believe there is a greater power at work in our lives. I used to be LDS before Prop 8 came around, which really sliced deep into my own personal held beliefs, but a lot of it did make sense, so I think that somewhere between all the religions, there is the truth.

So why would a Loving God give us the wrong body? I believe that we are pushed to our very limits in order to grow, and become better for the experience. We were born as such because we can handle it.

I get your point. I study diffrent religions to see how they are the same and how they are diffrent. Why one group believe this and the other don't. I have found some truth in each, yet it has err mix into it  as well. when I say truth I am talking about personality of God, yet over layed with who man thinks God is.

The diffrent groups are telling their view of who God is and how we interrelate with God. To me it is like gossip about God and his charicture how he hates this or that. Loves this or that. but they don't really know who he his so they just talk about him.

Quote from: Astarielle on October 02, 2010, 09:14:48 PM
Isn't that what I just said?

Yes it is.

I apologise for my misunderstanding. But even more for failing to respond earlier.