Susan's Place Transgender Resources

Update: I have changed the location to X. I didn't mean for any location to be identified in my post, so I have changed it. I am extremely grateful for everything the people at this place have done for me over the past year, and I never intended to show this place in a bad light. I've kept the rest of the post, even though there are things I have said that I feel are too much of a slap against the person in question, as I've mentioned later in this thread, and I have been tempted to remove some of my words, but I think it would be disingenuous for me to alter what I have said after the fact, so my post remains unchanged except for the location.

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I have expressed on here already in a post about a month ago that I am really pretty self-conscious about my shoulders. Anyway, I was at this group at X; the focus of the group is about ways to combat depression, and my therapist had suggest I attend so I can meet new people. I'd been to the group a couple of times already. Well this third session last week, I was the only person who showed up, aside from the convenor. Now the person who convenes this group doesn't really understand trans issues very well. She is a butch lesbian GG, and calls everybody 'he' for a start. Granted, I don't really care, since I still go out dressed as a guy and only use my female voice in private, although I do use my female name whenever I am at X. But there was one older woman there at the previous meetings who was fully dressed in a female business suit, and called herself a female name. The convenor called her 'he' as well - hmmmm.

Well, at this last session, it was just me and the group convenor. We'd been talking for an hour or so about coping mechanisms for depression, and eventually I told her that some of my melancholy moments stem from the fact that I am very self-conscius about my upper body. I told her that I though my arms were still a bit thick looking. She looked at and nodded, and then said that my shoulders look really big too - (she didn't just say a bit - she said really big). I was pretty much floored, but as I was brought up to be non-confrontational and polite in company, I just continued the conversation as if she hadn't said a thing. What is really stupid is that she is rather short, about 5"2 or something, and quite rotund, and if we were the same height she'd have wider shoulders than me, so WTF?

After the session I walked to my car in the rain, and I sat in the driver's seat, soaked to the bone, and cried for a full ten minutes. I then started my 45 minute drive home, and all the way home I cried and cried, at the same time trying to negotiate the traffic in the torrential rain. It was horrible. I have never felt as disgustingly self-conscious about myself as I did after that woman said what she'd said. I felt so weak and self-indugent. That night I lay in bed sobbing for hours, and seriously contemplated throwing away all my hormones, and shaving my head with the clippers I use to groom my dog. I even had ridiculous thoughts about attaching a hose to the exhaust of my car, passing it through the window, and just succumbing to carbon monoxide poisoning. I wouldn't have done it of course, but the thoughts were still there (even if I had tried, I googled it and found that because my car is late model, and has a catalytic converter to obliterate CO emissions, it would have been impossible even if I had wanted to - so to anybody out there who is thinking about this and you have a late model car, don't bother.). I had my counselling session with my regular therapist the next day, and she immediately commented that I did not seem like my usual bubbly self. I told her why, and she commented that she'd never seen me like this before (I've been seeing her for a year).

Prior to this conversation with this woman, my upper body issues had merely been a source of annoyance, something that I didn't really like, but I could control my feelings about them. Now it seems like I'm bordering upon obsession. When I go to the mall now, I always walk behind other women my height and observe their body width. They are all smaller than me, except the really overweight women. I just look at them, then look at myself in the mirror, and shake my head. This thing is getting ridiculous...

I am quite small for a male - 5"8, 137lbs, and my shoulders are like 16.5 inches across and 39 inches circumference. Interestingly enough, I am exactly the same height, weight, and size I was when I was 16... I am now a decade and a bit past that, and started hrt last year.

I know this sounds like a whole lot of complaining - I rarely complain, but this thing has really pissed me off. I mean, I was really working the balancing act of self-acceptance in my mind, and then this tactless cretin comes along and knocks me down completely. And the thing is, I think she is right. They do say that the truth hurts...

Aww *hugs!* from just looking at your picture I think you have perfect shoulders :) It sounds like the lady you were talking to just said it in jest and probably didn't know it would hurt so bad. I'm sorry she said those things it was pretty hurtful especially if your self conscious about it :(

I can't tell if you have wide shoulder or not by your photo. But you look very feminine.
Many GG's have wide shoulders and other even think they have narrow shoulders.
Jessica Biel has very broad shoulders and does a perfect job of always looking fashionable, feminine, and stylish.  Here are a few tips to follow to help you look your best as well.

Here is tips for Broad Shoulders

    * Choose fuller bottoms over narrower ones
    * Choose diagonal lines that angle inward at the neck
    * Soften the shoulders with softer armholes
    * Choose vertical lines over horizontal lines

Hope that helps.
Jillieann

I'm sorry that this insensitive woman wounded you with her stupid comment. She sounds ridiculous calling everyone 'he', wth?! What about women swimmers, their shoulders are huge and they are proud of their athletic build, as they should be. They would be floored to be called 'he' just because of their shoulder width. :)
Your shoulders look lovely in your pic, within normal range for a woman. Don't let a one-off comment deter you from being who you really are. It's true, she should know better, and maybe you could bring this up next time as it will be a constant irritant every time you go there. Also maybe no one is game enough to correct her and it's time someone did. Does she think you're ftm? Idk. She certainly has me baffled.  ???

I'd also feel a little WTF is someone called me a freaking "he!" You look fine in that picture girl. Don't let a comment like what that she-devil had to say ruin your day... I don't get why she magnified your insecurity so blatantly like that! Heed caution with this woman or like vexing mentioned branch out on your own.

Do take care and do think positive. You're beautiful!

Breath girl, breath.  This to shall pass.

I think your shoulders look fine and you look very feminine also

I also think that this "convenor" is purposefully messing with you due to her own insecurities

She feels like crap about herself and wants to bring you and anyone else down and make everyone feel like crap as well

You're rather pretty

Another ride on her merry go round isn't worth the game token

                           {{{HUGS}}}

Judging by your photo, your shoulders look fine.  Instead of comparing yourself to girls at the mall, try hanging around the swimmers and gymnasts.  I think you'll find your shoulders really aren't that broad at all.

And as for that tactless creep, don't let one person's thoughtless blather take over your life. Either she has no real sense of body proportions, or she was bolstering her own ego by criticizing you.  It seems clear that she has issues with MtFs, in any case. 

As a side note, given that this place is supposed to be a support center for LGBT, I would complain to the board about her persistent use of improper pronouns.

That sucks you had to endure such trans-misogynistic remarks from that person.  They obviously did not understand what it means to walk in our shoes.  The real insult was this is a "gender center", where people may entrust the facilitators have an actual clue to what is going on. 

Well, I've also had to endure someone like that, my former therapist.  After a while, I learned not to discuss any self-conscious feelings I may have had about my appearance.  They became my necessary gatekeeper as long as I needed them, but I got little from the therapy itself.  She was also coincidentally lesbian who I suspect had some deep-seated beliefs about what "real women" are.  It made sense that's what was going on.  I've learned that some people just don't "get it", despite several years of higher education and credentials to their name. 

I agree with the others, I think you look great, you are nice and slim.  Personally, I'm not so self-conscious about my shoulders as I am about my butt.  I am also on the slim side and nature didn't hand out a wide pelvis to me.  So, I think maybe my small butt makes my shoulders look bigger.  It's one reason I like to wear long shirts (hard to find in my size), to make things look more proportionate.

I think your shoulders look to be typical woman's width too.
As Jamie said, check out swimmers, some of the Olympic swimmers have really large shoulders and arms, and look absolutely stunning.

If the woman who upset you is a lesbian and not trans, why on earth would she use 'he'. I would have thought it was something to be rejected.
Sounds like why you don't put a lid on the bucket when you are crab fishing. When one tries to climb out the others always pull them back down.

What seems fairly obvious is that this person has a number of problems of her own and is attempting to avoid those by being nasty to others.

It would have been really hurtful. I can really understand how you felt.

But, in all honest, you need to stay away from these sort of toxic environments. From your description, it seems that almost everyone else has already gotten that message.

Your photo is of a rather pretty young girl.



Also, I'm sure most here will understand when you eventually feel really angry and think about how to get back at her.

Don't. She wants negative reactions. Don't feed her addiction.

From your profile pic your shoulders look fine, mine are wider. I think self acceptance can also come from just eventually realising there's nothing you can do about it (although I admit I try to dress to minimise my shoulders, lots of black).

Seeing as you're from Australia and I don't know of any other organisations here with that name I'm wondering if it's the same place I went to - is it in Sydneys inner west?

You don't have to answer that, just if it is I'm sure that you can bring up the pronoun issue with the convenor and it will be addressed. That place has a mixture of volunteers and paid staff, not everyone is a qualified professional. I remember when I went our group leader called you by what you were presenting as until you requested otherwise, zie made a point of stating this.

Just bear in mind that it's doubtful she intended to hurt you, she may be a volunteer and may not know everything about GID. You should bring up your concerns about the way she conducts the group and judge her by the way she addresses the problem, not judge her by the way she might be uninformed.

I don't mean to upset you but people can get a little irrational here sometimes - why would someone do that job just to have the opportunity to insult people, especially if she's not getting paid for it? By the sounds of it she's not qualified so it's quite likely she's a volunteer.

And put the hair clippers away.

Quote from: andream on June 05, 2010, 09:33:02 PM
I am quite small for a male - 5"8, 137lbs, and my shoulders are like 16.5 inches across and 39 inches circumference. Interestingly enough, I am exactly the same height, weight, and size I was when I was 16... I am now a decade and a bit past that, and started hrt last year.

Your shoulders look fine. And they're only an inch or two bigger than mine either way- I'm rather small boned and shorter than you. Don't sweat it. Plus, she only agreed with you. Probably didn't expect you to be offended by something that you claimed.

Oh no no no everybody, I don't think she meant to be hurtful at all.

I now realize what I have written about her has been much too strongly worded. I think I got far too carried away and I feel I've crossed a line.

The facts are the same, but the way I wrote about her wasn't kind at all. She is in fact a very nice person, and we get along really well, and the more I think about it after reading the different types of responses here, the more I think I was really making too much out of an off-hand comment. The responses here have really put my mind into perspective about this.

In this post I should have focussed more on the impact of what she'd said to me rather than talking so negatively about her. spacial - no I have no desire to get back at her, as I am not angry at her at all. She really did nothing wrong. I am really just frustrated with myself for allowing myself to feel this way because of an off-hand comment, a comment I walked into by bringing the topic up anyway. I'm not the type of person to get really angry at anybody at all, and I look at what I have said about her here and sort of think - okay, I can be quite bitchy too. So to lay it to rest, the topic shouldn't have been about her, but rather my inability to cope with my reaction to what was said by her unintentionally. Anything I said about her in my post was really just me venting and moaning -shakes head-. :-\

I understand the feeling and I sympathise but I think the thing is all our body parts have to be in proportion. I too am 5 foot 8 but even though that was short for a man it is towards the upper end of what is normal for a female so if you are taller than other girls then you are inevitably going to be broader too.

I am well proportioned and I pass well enough... but if I compare myself to a lot of petite females that I see I have to admit that I am one "strapping" big girl.

I wish I was smaller. But it's not going to happen and anyway being bigger sometimes carries the odd advantage. So try not to let it get to you. You look fine.

andream.


If I may suggest, you be who you are, a girl with a body she has to live with. Every one of us is basically in the same situation. In recent years, it has become possible for some to have some features altered, but for most they make do with what they have.

At the end of the day, the question you should be asking yourself is, do you need to apologise to the world for existing?

I suggest the answer is, no, the world will just need to change to accommodate you.

/edited to remove location information/

One thing I love about Sydney is there seems to be a large number of tall women. I'm 5'9" and regularly see woman in the mall, the grocery, at the beach my height or taller, even teenage girls, and with all sizes and shapes of shoulders, waists, and hips. These things are sensitive subjects with us because we are so hyper aware of our differences. But if you start noticing the things you have in common with a lot of other women it helps to get a more clear perspective, and you can start thinking hey maybe I'm not so tragically bad after all. You look great honey and there is absolutely no reason for you to let it bother you.

*big hugs for Andrea*

Quote from: andream on June 06, 2010, 05:13:55 AM
I am really just frustrated with myself for allowing myself to feel this way because of an off-hand comment,

I think it's the same for most if not all of us when we first start, it takes a long time to get over but you will become desensitised eventually if nothing else because people are going to say the wrong thing all the time and only a small portion of them will be doing it on purpose.

**edit - Sorry for identifying the location, I should have PM'd you.

The girl in your group was probably just mindlessly agreed with you to avoid conflict. Your shoulders look completley proportional to your body and chest from your pic, be glad. I am shorter than you, have wide shoulders plus no boobs!

I sympathise totally...I've just had to deal with my mother pointing out how masculine all my features are. Regardless of what I'd say she always had an answer. I feel totally self concious now and it feels awful.

Hope you're ok hun and you really shouldn't feel self concious because you do look beautiful.

Quote from: Helena on June 06, 2010, 10:59:27 AM
... you really shouldn't feel self concious because you do look beautiful.

As do you my dear Helena - never doubt that!

Mothers have special selective vision. They always see what they want to see depending on the point that they are trying to make to you at the time.

Truth is both you and Andream are far from masculine, and already pretty darned attractive.  :)

Quote from: andream on June 05, 2010, 09:33:02 PM
I told her that I though my arms were still a bit thick looking. She looked at and nodded, and then said that my shoulders look really big too - (she didn't just say a bit - she said really big). I was pretty much floored, but as I was brought up to be non-confrontational and polite in company, I just continued the conversation as if she hadn't said a thing. What is really stupid is that she is rather short, about 5"2 or something, and quite rotund, and if we were the same height she'd have wider shoulders than me, so WTF?

I suspect possible side effects of hormone, causing depression.

My shoulders are also very wide compared with most women here, but narrower than most men.

A few days ago, I saw a young girl who was as tall as me. She was very slim and her shoulders were far narrower than me. But I do not envy her. To my eyes, narrow shoulder is not sexy at al. And it does not look healthy. I like wider shoulders (if not so fat) and narrower waist. As I can not decrease the shoulder width, I just try to decrease waist girth. Of course, I can make my shoulders look a little bit narrower by exercise and diet, but there is a limit, and moreover I do not dislike my wide shoulders as long as they are not so much fat. My shoulders tend to become scanty in summer as I exercise more.

My point is that it depends on your mind. Wide shoulders can look sexy.

And, I am sure my shoulders are wider than yours, even considering height (mine 6 feet). I love my wide  (compared to women) shoulders:

https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php?action=mgallery;sa=item;id=2125 (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php?action=mgallery;sa=item;id=2125)
https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php?action=mgallery;sa=item;id=2126 (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php?action=mgallery;sa=item;id=2126)

Barbie~~

I honestly can't figure out why people continue with the archaic notion that women must conform to some defined body standard.  It is simply not true anymore.  Women's bodies have been evolving over the last fifty or so years.  Many women today are much stronger, bigger, and more muscular than women of the seventies were.  The eighties ushered in a new era which saw women gaining interest in building and toning their physiques.  It is not unusual to see women with defined abs and lean muscle mass.  Some, like female body builders go to extremes to build mass.  I'm personally not appalled by it, but it is a little too much to my liking.   I've lost half my size--primarily fat and some muscle mass over the last year or so--and replaced that with all around lean muscle tissue.  For the first time in my life I get to wear and feel comfortable in sleeveless tank tops and nobody questions it or looks at me funny.  Except, you guessed it, the two holier-than-thou epitomy of perfect womanhood LESBIANS who live next door to me.  When I tried to pull the same look off when I was heavier, I got called everything in the book.

Don't be afraid or ashamed of how you look Andrea, because you look damn fine--and don't let anyone ever tell you different.  ESPECIALLY someone whose subculture revolves around bad hair and a poor fashion sense

I found this video on youtube showing the evolution of the female physique.  There are also other videos to show how many women are now getting involved in building their bodies.  It's time to lose the outdated notion that women HAVE TO BE soft, fat, curvy, dependent and fragile like little petunias.  The woman in the blue toward the end of the video holding the dumbell is pretty well how I am shaped

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7s2QUJ_NDcE# (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7s2QUJ_NDcE#) 

Butch dykes hate MtFs because we are raping them by trying to live in their space...see janice raymond's book about such crap ideas...so ignore her.
your pix shows a figure to die for.
if she seems to be doing the 'he' deliberately then you need to write to the head of the institute and mention political correctness...idiots like her have to be straightened out.

Quote from: ƃuıxǝʌ on June 07, 2010, 03:47:56 AM
Hey, what the hell?
Butch dykes most certainly do not!
The people you're actually talking about are a subset of radical feminist, some of whom happen to be butch dykes.

Saying "Butch dykes hate MTFs cuz..." is no different to saying "Trans women hate men cuz..."

This is definitely not my experience with the lesbian community.  When I first moved to Toronto, I was offered a job at a print chain by a women who was a dyke.  I thought to myself hey, this is so cool, if anyone has an understanding of my situation it would be her, right?  After all, we are all part of the "rainbow flag of diversity"--sisters in a sense.  Boy was I wrong!  This woman (if you can call her that) after three months began to harass and abuse me verbally.  She brought over her lesbian friends, some of which worked at other locations, where she then began to ridicule me in front of them.  She would constantly micro manage me.  She would shut down my programs or restart my computer without saving my work while I was away on a break.  She would promise customers delivery of jobs, then leave for the weekend without informing me about her promises to clients.  I was then left to defend myself from an outraged client as to why their job was not completed.  She would have the overnight guy call me late at night to inform me of a serious issue that needs to be corrected as soon as possible and I have to go to the job site.  When I arrived I would find that this so-called emergency was something the he could have taken care of himself.  The list goes on and on.  Six months later she fires me!

Fast forward four years.  I'm now living in the apartment of my dreams which took me three years to discover.  When I moved in, I had some really nice neighbors living beside me.  So nice that I really didn't mind that they would sometimes party late into the night.  About a year later they moved out.  Then these two lesbians move in.  I'm out on my balcony when one of them says hi.  I respond with some small talk, then silence.  Then they start laughing.  From that day on everytime I was on my balcony and they were on there, they would make some sort of comment about me.

Fast forward to this summer/spring.  As mentioned in previous posts, I've done a lot of work to my body--I'm buff and I'm not shy to say that I look good.  This is confirmed by my dealings with people on the street.  I guess over the winter, the couple had broken up.  The fat little militant midget with the bowl cut who wore heavy mens second hand blazers in the deadly heat of the summer was no longer there.  She was replaced by something resembling a sock puppet who, to my astonishment turned out to be pretty nice, at first.  We chatted a few times and exchanged pleasantries when passing in the hall.  Then the first heat of the summer hit.  I'm a sun worshipper and spend a great deal of time working on my tan.  I was out on the balcony when the sock puppet came out.  I was wearing my denim shorts and a halter--similar to what I wore last summer while in the sun when they had moved in.  She took one look at me and was speechless.  I said hello, then her partner--one of the original occupants of the apartment came out.  she was speechless as well.  She then dragged the sock puppet into the apartment and slammed the door.

Since that day, the sock puppet no longer talks to me.  Whenever I am out there and they come out, they spend a great deal of time making comments about me and laughing--I ignore it.  Whenever they have a friend over, they have to make a mention that I'm a 'guy'.  Nobody else calls me a guy.  NOBODY.  Nobody looks at me strangely or double takes me on the street.  NOBODY.  Other people in the complex are quite friendly and sociable, but not these people.

These experiences have been enough to turn me off of an entire sub culture.  Gay men have no problem with me.  As a matter of fact, gay men are actually quite respectable and sociable with me.  Young girls don't have a problem with me--most think I'm actually "super cool" given my age and my interests.  Women who take care of themselves and who have no hang ups about their appearance have no issues with me. So what gives?  I no longer even give these people (lesbians) a chance as I know that they are all one of the same.  If, when I resume my job search, I accept a position and find a lesbian(s) working there--I will quit.  This is how strongly I feel about the issue.  This is how deeply I've been affected by these people.  To me, the 'rainbow flag of diversity' has now become the rainbow flag of hypocrisy!

I apologize if this offends anyone but I am not afraid to speak my mind concerning disrespect towards the trans community and I refuse to stay silent when it occurs.

O.K. As I have never met butch or femme dyke , I am just wondering whehter butch dyke tends to have wider shoulders  ::)

Barbie~~

Doesn't offend me Kirstyn. Seems some lesbian people have formed themselves into a self defensive community.

It's understandable. While gay men tend to be the subject of jibes and threats, lesbans tend to be labeled as object to watch.

Ultimately, yet another example of the societial enforced perversion of men really.

I can only hope that, as transgendered people begin to establish themselves and become more accepted, that none of our number go down that route.

I would like to think we, as transgendered people can take our place and part of society. Working toward the common good. Not forming small groups intent upon inflicting onto other what we believe was done to us.

Kristyn, I've had far more positive experiences with lesbians & bisexuals in a short amount of time. Saying that you'd quit your job just because a lesbian just so happens to work there...that upsets me. A few bad experiences shouldn't paint an entire group of humanity as vindictive and malicious.

---

Andream, I often have the exact same insecurities about my own shoulders. I really think, though, that it comes down to us having impossible ideals that we construct for us to try to live up to...it's near impossible to have precisely what we want, or rather, what we think we want. There's always going to be that one quirk or trait that we detest and wish we could rid ourselves of, or change...but that's just the way people are.

We always focus on and narrow down to a problem, for better or worse.

I can't say she was doing so to hurt you...but I have had my experiences, good and bad, with different counsellors & psychs throughout the years. You find some of them just can't be what you need them to be...they are just people, after all. Sometimes, they say the wrong thing, and sometimes they make the wrong assumption.

People can say the wrong word, or agree with you at the wrong time, and that can stick with you. But hey, chin up; I personally think you're beautiful. And I know a lot of people here would agree. :]

I've had a similar situation with a therapist once. I went in 'guy mode' to my therapy sessions because I still hadn't had hair removal done and was self conscious. He asked me if I was on hormones (I had been for over a year) and when I told him that I was he flat out told me that he didn't think they were working and that he didn't think that they ever would.

By the way your shoulders look fine in your pic. If I saw your picture on any other site I wouldn't even second guess that you were anything but female.

Quote from: Helena on June 06, 2010, 10:59:27 AM
...I've just had to deal with my mother pointing out how masculine all my features are. Regardless of what I'd say she always had an answer. I feel totally self conscious now and it feels awful.

I hate this too. My mom recently told me that I couldn't possibly look any more male than I do. :(

i know a gg with large shoulders
and even a guy *i eavesdrop* said to her, 'you have broad shoulders"

she's pretty though.

i don't see really huge shoulders on you, just can't tell, but it wouldn't be something i would obsess with since i can't change that.

over the years I've done tons of research into wedding fashions and the whole wedding thing and seen thousands of pix of happy couples from all parts of the world of all ages from the last 100 years or so and until very recently the groom was almost always taller and wider than the bride - I say it's simple biology and genetics about which we can do nothing.
What is interesting in theswe pixs is that some of the widest tallest peopl are the mothers and aunts of the happy pair.
Moral is if your mother syas your shoudlers are too wide go ask her to look at her wedding pix. No, perhaps you'd better not.

In my experience through meeting lots of people of diverse gender, creed, colour, whatever. There are nice people and there are nasty people. Gender, creed, colour whatever is irrelevant. Don't get caught by the old, "she, he, it are a Xism, don't trust them. A friend of a friend had one who tied dynamite to their cat, there all the same aren't they."
No they are not.
People are people, look for the nice and ignore the nasty.
And ALWAYS treat people as you wish to be treated yourself.

Cindy