Susan's Place Transgender Resources

There's an Internet forum dedicated solely to FFS.  Naturally, almost everyone there is planning surgery, recovering from surgery or enjoying the results of the surgery.  But I rarely hear of anyone here having had FFS or even thinking about it.  I was just wondering how many ladies have thought about this.  There is a belief out there that FFS is just as important as SRS, maybe even more so. 

Just curious why it's so rarely discussed here.

Julie

Dr O's talks aside, I think it is rarely needed, particularly for us older gals.

If I had had FFS, I think I'd still have had my SRS first.  Then, if there had still been funding, go for the $40K or so for the face.

In your case, Julie, as I've mentioned several times:  I don't see where it could make you any prettier or any more feminine.

I had a traech shave and would like to have a nose job and the bags under my eyes removed.  Probably won't ever do so.  A Maui timeshare might bring more pleasure in the long run.  <grins>

Robyn

tinkerbell :icon_chick:

I never thought about it much. It never made it to my priorities list.  I never had the trach shave and I should have done that. It does poke out.  I suppose that if I could have done a little better finanancially back then, I may have considered it. I have thought about it recently only after coming here last summer.  Until then, I really didn't worry about it.

But now, my mind is racked every night.  OMG, I have an Adam's apple now.  I find myself wearing my shirts buttoned up high, or hiding it with my hands.

Oh.. just writing this message has made me so miserable.

hehehehe.

Cindi

Well if i was gonna transition i would want the works, i fear it still would not be enough????
I know I'm a miserable sight, but I'm full of love you just cannot see it!
cyber bunnies :o
ricki

Quote from: Cindianna_Jones on November 14, 2006, 08:42:18 PM

But now, my mind is racked every night.  OMG, I have an Adam's apple now.  I find myself wearing my shirts buttoned up high, or hiding it with my hands.

Oh.. just writing this message has made me so miserable.

hehehehe.

Cindi

LOL...you are so funny!   ;D :D....and don't forget about all those wool scarves you wear in the summer time to cover your neck... ;D

tinkerbell :icon_chick:

Ive considered FFS, and up untill going fulltime it was my number one priority... not because I really need it to pass (well, yeah the trach shave is a must) but because I NEED it for me....  I want to have my jaw/chin rounded/softened... but overall I want the same overall shape and angle.  I want the brow bossing, maby narrow my nose a bit sence Im doing everything else, and maby they can correct my sinus problem while there at it LoL....

Sence going fulltime Ive found FFS to be alittle less improtant, though its still on the priority list... but now if I could have the final surgery tomarrow or FFS tomarrow... Id go for the final  :D

Hey Julie,

I am a minimalist. I want to do the absolute minimum I can. What I mean by that is, the minimum to abate my gender dysphoria. I am not particularly impressed with the results of FFS. I also beleive I already have a very feminine looking face, other than a big nose. However after looking at pics of my mother, I realize she has a big nose too.

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Felizabeth-alive.com%2Fmomandme.jpg&hash=0273b45af4cb58cef534fe7d7dbb1f1cae7c09f4)

You be the judge. This is my mother and me in a blond wig. I think we look very similar.

Love always,
Elizabeth

For me, I feel it would be a nicety.  Not something absolutely crucial to fully live life as a woman, but I think I would probably do it to improve my appearance.  At this particular point in time however (not due to finances), if I was offered FFS, I would probably decline because of some recent things.  Since talking about my looks seems to make me come off as vain and conceded, I will decline to state why. :-\

For me, it would be more important than SRS.

Face it girls (sorry), your face is the first thing society sees.  The SRS only addresses something polite society should *never* see.  :D

If it weren't for the fact that you need SRS to get your primary documentation changed I wouldn't do it.  Or at least only if I ended up in a relationship that I felt would be made stronger by giving me the ability to have intercourse with the proper equipment.

I want society to accept me as the woman I know I am.  FFS would help that.  SRS, for me, only confirms my belief.

And to my mind, were society more sanely put together, FFS would be the operation(s) to require two letters and RLT. 

The way it is now you can look as feminine as you want and all you need is your checkbook.  The FFS surgeries are as just as irreversible as SRS.  Yet one minor corrective surgery between the legs and you have to ask permission of gatekeepers who probably haven't experienced the anguish we have.  You must say the proper words and pass the proper tests because they, the males who have the power and skill, couldn't concieve of anyone wanting to mutilate their genitalia.  So anyone who does wants to is obviously deranged and needs to prove that they really, Really, REALLY want to!

Sorry ladies, I'll get off that soapbox now.  This is obviously something that everyone has heard before or thought it themselves, but every now and then I need to vent...

-Sandy (the timid and unopinionated)

Quote from: Kassandra on November 15, 2006, 12:33:06 AM
The way it is now you can look as feminine as you want and all you need is your checkbook. 

Your checkbook but most importantly money in your checking account.... :D


tinkerbell :icon_chick:

I think FFS is a mixed bag.  I do believe many people can benefit from it, I also believe many more people that don't need it or only minimally benefit from it are oversold on it.  Lastly, as much as I'm sure Dr.  O is a miracle worker, any surgeon can do a nose job and many of the other procedures Dr.  O charges 10x for.

If anything, I don't blame him, he's merely charging what the market is willing to pay and offering services his customers obviously want.  If anything he's a great salesman, most plastic surgeons are.

FFS, like SRS, is a vehicle to passing not the only means of it.

There's a FFS surgeon not even 20 minutes away from my house who is described as an artist.  In comparing him to a very popular FFS surgeon (Dr.X) she said Dr X will make you passable, Dr Y will make you beautiful.  That has really got me thinking.  Thank you Robyn for the kind words but I have been read before just because of my face.  I can't change my bone structure.  I'll forever battle my deep voice but if I had a decidely feminine face it would sure make life easier.  And if it was beautiful it might open some doors for me that would normally be closed.

A lot of the girls here look to me like natural women but I'm seeing a 2D picture that most likely is the best one they can find.  That's what I do.  You'll never see a bad picture of me.  Why would I want to put my worst foot forward?  Kassandra has seen me in the flesh and if she was totally honest she'd probably tell you FFS would make a huge difference.  And you don't have to spend $40-50K to get that look.  A friend did a comparison between the famous Dr X and Dr Y and found Dr Y to be half the cost of Dr X.  And he's less invasive so there's a shorter healing time.

People will read your face first and they will do it in a couple of seconds.

Julie
 
   

Quote from: Tinkerbell on November 15, 2006, 12:47:51 AM

Your checkbook but most importantly money in your checking account.... :D

tinkerbell :icon_chick:

Now wait a minute... I must have lots of money left in that account.  I still have a whole box of blank checks!  ;)

Cindi

Quote from: Julie Marie on November 15, 2006, 06:43:49 AM
There's a FFS surgeon not even 20 minutes away from my house who is described as an artist.  In comparing him to a very popular FFS surgeon (Dr.X) she said Dr X will make you passable, Dr Y will make you beautiful.  That has really got me thinking.  Thank you Robyn for the kind words but I have been read before just because of my face.  I can't change my bone structure.  I'll forever battle my deep voice but if I had a decidely feminine face it would sure make life easier.  And if it was beautiful it might open some doors for me that would normally be closed.

A lot of the girls here look to me like natural women but I'm seeing a 2D picture that most likely is the best one they can find.  That's what I do.  You'll never see a bad picture of me.  Why would I want to put my worst foot forward?  Kassandra has seen me in the flesh and if she was totally honest she'd probably tell you FFS would make a huge difference.  And you don't have to spend $40-50K to get that look.  A friend did a comparison between the famous Dr X and Dr Y and found Dr Y to be half the cost of Dr X.  And he's less invasive so there's a shorter healing time.

People will read your face first and they will do it in a couple of seconds.

Julie

Ok, I figured out who Dr. X and Dr. Y are and I would have to definitely agree with you in terms of results.  That's also great to know he is half the cost of Dr. X.

Melissa

Quote from: Julie Marie on November 15, 2006, 06:43:49 AMThere's a FFS surgeon not even 20 minutes away from my house who is described as an artist.  In comparing him to a very popular FFS surgeon (Dr.X) she said Dr X will make you passable, Dr Y will make you beautiful.

OOoo, I'm jealous. Doc Y (if I'm guessing this right) is either a flight or 12 hour drive for me. I did a telephone consult with him a ways back, and he seemed to genuinely care and listen to my concerns without imposing his own views. He also patiently answered my zillions of questions, which I very much appreciated.

The only thing I didn't like was his emphasis on beauty during his initial sales pitch. Sure, I'd like to be pretty, but I *need* to be passable - or at least I used to think so. I dunno, I'm beginning to relax a bit on my "I'll either pass or kill myself!" melodrama as I grow into this.

Do I need it though? I don't know, we'll have to wait and see what HRT does. I swear there's no way I'll ever pass without FFS, and yet my wife and therapist laugh hysterically whenever I say that, so... who knows? We tend to each be our own worst critics.

In any case, FFS would be at *least* a year or more in the future for me, so in the meantime I'm just casually doing my research, doing the consults, comparing techniques, etc. I'm hopeful that I'm just wasting my time ;)

Quote from: Kate on November 15, 2006, 08:32:53 AM
I swear there's no way I'll ever pass without FFS, and yet my wife and therapist laugh hysterically whenever I say that, so... who knows? We tend to each be our own worst critics.

Yep.  Besides, I thought you already did get ma'amed in the supermarket. ;)  I think a lot of passing is accepting many of the features we may consider "male" and realizing they can be female as well.  A lot of it is self-acceptance.  I'll just say that I used to be like that and think I would need major FFS and now I have almost completely accepted how I look and am currently not considering FFS.  The times I do is when I feel insecure.

Melissa

I needed it, I've had it and it has been nothing short of a miracle for me.  I went from barely
passable to fully female after undergoing the full suite of procedures and I wouldn't hesitate
to do it again.  It was quite simply the best money I have ever spent.  I went to Dr Zukowski
in Chicago (Julie's Dr Y) and I think he is the best.  I had a Neanderthal brow-ridge that he
reduced to a flat feminine profile.  Hormones will do a lot but they will not change the brow-ridge
and the lower flat eyebrow profile that most men have.  If you don't need it, I think that's wonderful
but if seamless passing and stealth are part of your future I don't know how you can not consider
these procedures (other than the cost).  Regrettably, I am no longer comfortable posting a pre-op
photo of myself so I am unable to provide photographic evidence of my metamorphosis.  Kate has
seen them so she can comment if she wishes.

Dawn

Quote from: DawnL on November 15, 2006, 08:51:33 AM
Regrettably, I am no longer comfortable posting a pre-op
photo of myself so I am unable to provide photographic evidence of my metamorphosis.  Kate has
seen them so she can comment if she wishes.

OH MY GOD is my comment, lol. The before and after photos show two entirely different people. It's really astounding... miraculous even. Not that you were a bad-looking.. uhmmm... you know, that other sex. But the *difference* is just truly amazing. It's not an "improvement" on existing features, it's a complete metamorphisis.

And yes, Z is on the top of my short list as well. My only concern is that I just don't know if his endoscopic shaving will be enough, as I have no idea how thick my sinus/orbital rim bone is. The forehead overhang is my worst feature (along with hollow cheeks - but HRT should help there), so I'd hate to pay 30K for a minimal reduction. I really need to find a way to organize a skull X-ray.

For what it's worth, my wife knows me better than I know myself, and SHE insists that I will do it... and much sooner than I'd expect...  because I tend to be a perfectionist and want it ALL. And NOW. So, in spite of my idealistic ideas that I'm *trying* to make stick, odds are I'll end up doing it in the end. My informal prediction would be summer of 2007.

Sure, as soon as I hit that lottery...

Quote from: DawnL on November 15, 2006, 08:51:33 AM
Kate has seen them so she can comment if she wishes.

I've seen them too and they are utterly amazing.  I also know somebody else that went to Dr. Z and had just as miraculous of a transformation.  If I had FFS, he is the Dr. I would go to, hence my first comment about him being better.

Melissa

Quote from: Melissa on November 15, 2006, 08:38:12 AM

Quote from: Kate on November 15, 2006, 08:32:53 AM
I swear there's no way I'll ever pass without FFS, and yet my wife and therapist laugh hysterically whenever I say that, so... who knows? We tend to each be our own worst critics.

Yep.  Besides, I thought you already did get ma'amed in the supermarket. ;)  I think a lot of passing is accepting many of the features we may consider "male" and realizing they can be female as well.  A lot of it is self-acceptance.  I'll just say that I used to be like that and think I would need major FFS and now I have almost completely accepted how I look and am currently not considering FFS.  The times I do is when I feel insecure.

Melissa

FFS won't change your personality and I think that trips up passing for most people, more then anything else.  From my last transition attempt I always remember the quote "You start passing when you stop caring about passing or not and just be yourself."

While there are always exeptions, I think its basically a true statement.

You are right in that passing involves more than just how your face looks. :)

Melissa

Quote from: DawnL on November 15, 2006, 08:51:33 AM
I went to Dr Zukowski in Chicago (Julie's Dr Y)

I didn't want to say anything personally negative so I gave the two doctors anonymous IDs.  But I also don't want to mislead anyone.  Mark Zukowski is Dr X.  Raymond Konior is Dr Y.  "Zukowski will make you passable, Konior will make you beautiful" was the quote.

Dawn, I'm not saying Z didn't do all you said or that anyone could have done better.  FFS is a very personal thing and all that matters is that the patient is happy.

Julie

Actually I'm glad you mentioned names.  I had never heard of Dr. Raymond Konior.  I think many of us have our opinion about hwo is the best and who isn't, but we are entitled to those opinions. :)

Melissa

Even on a forum dedicated solely to FFS Konior is anything but a household name.  Zukowski has made FFS a major part of his practice, for Konior it's probably just a small fraction.  But when someone like a TG therapist is that impressed, you have to give it some consideration.  When I'm ready, I'll check both Zukowski and Konior out.  There are things I have to know first hand before making a decision like this.

Julie

Hiee,

  I think way to many don't give HRT and their own self confidence a chance before its off to the Plastique shop. I don't consider myself to be particularly feminine looking at all. I can say though that when I stop in the grocery store or some other store on the way home from work, in my work clothes and usually pretty grimy (re:dirty) I am treated like any other woman. Sometimes I get the feeling that some woman actually admire me for working in a prodominately male occupation. I feel unequivicolly that I am female and that is what I think does it myself IE Self Image and Esteem.

  Now to eat my words a bit. I may and that is a very very BIG MAY get implants if I don't at least increase again in size by next Sept as I did in the past year to year. Being in my mid 50's I do think though that it is much easier to meld in with the other woman. The down side for me being that I tend to dress youngish, Blame that on Puberty :).

Byee,
  Brina

Quote from: Julie Marie on November 15, 2006, 04:19:18 PM
I didn't want to say anything personally negative so I gave the two doctors anonymous IDs.  But I also don't want to mislead anyone.  Mark Zukowski is Dr X.  Raymond Konior is Dr Y.  "Zukowski will make you passable, Konior will make you beautiful" was the quote.

Dawn, I'm not saying Z didn't do all you said or that anyone could have done better.  FFS is a very personal thing and all that matters is that the patient is happy.

Actually, now that you mention it, I recall hearing that at the Be-all this year.  I don't know anything about Konior
so I can't comment.  Dr Z worked miracles with me and at 52, I never considered beauty an option.  Anyone considering
FFS should choose a surgeon after careful research and also choose someone they are personally comfortable with.  I
did extensive research and Konior's name never came up.  That would be a concern for me.  Of course, if you are able
to meet some of his other patients, as I did with Dr Z, then you would have a first hand opportunity to see for yourself
what kind of work he does. 

Dawn

Wow, cool thread!
1st off Melissa if that is your cat he/she (cannot tell from the head shot) hehe.. is a cutie!
Elizabeth, you do and you know male features aside i've had tons of people tell me how much me and my mom look alike and how me and my sister share features, sadly the youngest does not look like us? Hmmm the old postman kid's syndrome i fear, lol
Anomi .. You look really good in your picture, maybe you do not even need surgery ????
Wow to be so lucky!
Excellent post Julie Marie..
I'm just following along I'll end this now and not bore everyone!
Enjoy the chocolate cheesecake!  it weighs, GET THIS.. 6 1/2 lbs!
Ricki

I want it for the plain simple reason that I cannot handle being ridiculed or treated with disdain or treated like an outcast. Do I know this will happen? Not really, but I do know society can be cruel and non attractive women dont do as good in society as attractive ones. That is not how its supposed to be but that is the fact of life. Beauty wins. And since nobody is going to check in-between my legs to see what sex I am, my priority will be from the neck up. FFS is second on my list to assimilate womanhood, the first things being HRT/electrolysis. Not only do I feel FFS is necessary, I want it. I want to look like a woman, not a man that has been feminized. If I had transitioned in my teens it wouldnt be an issue. But at 38 the skull has features that cannot be erased by HRT no matter the dosing or type.

Others are stronger and have the ability or attitude to tell the world it shouldnt or doesnt matter. "I am a woman, accept me or don't".  I feel it does matter to me how geneticly feminine I can make myself look. I'm telling the world I'm changing genders and sex and will be under the microscope regardless of what people like to believe. I'm forcing them to accept me as the real me, I need to look as good and feminine as I possibly can for them and me. I want to be able get up and run to the doughnut shop with no makeup and my hair in a ponytail and get mammed because with FFS there would be no way I could be mistaken for a man.

I want it because I dont want to make waves in society or force myself as a feminized male upon it because I am not wanting to fight or draw unwanted attention to myself and deal with confrontation that genetic women dont have to face. I want to blend in seamlessly and fit in. FFS will be a huge step and I personaly feel it is 100x's more important then what cannot be seen such as SRS. Like I said in an earlier post, I may not be a "TS" and I was a "Pickle" because SRS is not what I consider the most important thing in becoming a woman in society.

I will have SRS eventually to finish things off, but the sooner I can have FFS the quicker I will be able to be my true self and the woman in the mirror I've always known was there.

Perception is everything, as the saying goes.

In todays world Men are still taken at face value and women on the value of their face. Feminimity in the form of percieved beauty is a value most women aspire to.

FFS is one avenue available to improve our lives and acceptance into society, but it is part of a package that must include voice, facial hair removal, mannerisms and a high level of confidence and acceptance of our own abilities.

Unless we are castrated young (before puberty) and start on hormones the degree of changes to the facial area are minimal and for most people the ravages of testosterone are their for all to see. Hormones will not change the bone structure.

I had 10 hours of surgery in 2001, to alter the bone structure of my face and eliminate some of the traditional male traits (brow bossing, tracheal shave, squarer jaw, along with feminisation of my nose.

Over the following year, my pass rate went to a level where I was totally confident and acceptent of myself in public, which made a massive difference to me (despite my percieved other issues with body ).

It is expensive and I accept many people may never afford FFS, with SRS being considered a priority.

5 years on from FFS, the changes in my appearance (from my old male photos) are quite remarkable and have been a major factor in achieveing how I can live my life now.

Buffy

Julie,
   Like someone else said, I think you look very beautiful. I don't see any problems with you at all. Now, I'm just looking at a picture but what I see is very nice looking. I for one was not interested in FFS. I don't have a Adams Apple so was not concerned with that. I was really concerned with me. I didn't like what I saw in the mirror or what I felt like. I wanted to be whole. I transitioned when I was in my early 50's so having a wrinkle or two does not concern me. I think I might want a nose job, but have been told you are fine. Just like another lady said about her mother. Well, my mother and I look very much alike and my grandma we could be sisters. My mom does geneology and sent me a picture of a great grandmother or maybe it was two greats, I don't remember, but Pat said that is you. So I have all my features on the fem. side. The only thing I have that they don't is my bigness. So, I'm happy without the FFS. I don't care if someone else wants it as that is what they need for them to pass. I will not pass judgement on them for how they want to transition. I had a hair stylist tell me that she has had clients who have had face lifts and they only last about 5 years then they will have to have another one or they will turn old real fast. I like to think that I'm turning old gracefully. If you transition at a young age you probalbly won't have to have anything done. The older you are the harder it is, but then again you are old and who cares. Just my thoughts.
Sheila

Quote from: Cindianna_Jones on November 14, 2006, 08:42:18 PM
But now, my mind is racked every night.  OMG, I have an Adam's apple now.  I find myself wearing my shirts buttoned up high, or hiding it with my hands.

Wear scarves, it is cold weather season. ;)

Quote from: Ricki on November 15, 2006, 08:19:05 PM
1st off Melissa if that is your cat he/she (cannot tell from the head shot) hehe.. is a cutie!

Thanks Ricki.  It's actually my ex's cat, but he's my favorite.  His name is Bandit.  I was the one who named him. :)  I loved the picture so I went with it.

Melissa

I've always liked my face, and people have commented on the smallness of my nose and my pretty eyes, and once my therapist had told me that she hardly noticed my Adam's apple. So I will forego FFS, and will save up for SRS.  :)

Hey Dawn, I remember seeing your pictures, and you do look 100% better now. Life is so grand!!!  :)

Gina

Lori that was an awesome statement you mirrored some of my thoughts very well for me!
thanks
ricki

I've heard natal females, I personally hate the term GG, I think its derogatory towards everyone, complain about their huge foreheads, so that's always something to think about.

I think its like a lot of things, less is more.  I don't like my nose, but that has nothing to do with my gender - I just don't like it either way.  I think my chin could use some work.  I suppose I could persuaded to get my brow touched up, definitely nothing major, but all the same I'd leave it the way it was and be just as happy.

When I was on hormones before, it was almost scary how many of my mother's facial features especially her cheekbones, came through.

Quote from: DawnL on November 15, 2006, 08:51:33 AM
I needed it, I've had it and it has been nothing short of a miracle for me.  I went from barely
passable to fully female after undergoing the full suite of procedures and I wouldn't hesitate
to do it again.  It was quite simply the best money I have ever spent.  I went to Dr Zukowski
in Chicago (Julie's Dr Y) and I think he is the best.  I had a Neanderthal brow-ridge that he
reduced to a flat feminine profile.  Hormones will do a lot but they will not change the brow-ridge
and the lower flat eyebrow profile that most men have.  If you don't need it, I think that's wonderful
but if seamless passing and stealth are part of your future I don't know how you can not consider
these procedures (other than the cost).  Regrettably, I am no longer comfortable posting a pre-op
photo of myself so I am unable to provide photographic evidence of my metamorphosis.  Kate has
seen them so she can comment if she wishes.

Dawn

Most women like Dawn and myself who have had FFS feel the same way. It literally changes your life.

This topic can be a very divisive issue as many who can't afford the surgery convince themselves they don't need it when in reality they do. Years ago, there wasn't much trans awareness and women who presented as female fairly well "passed" without it.

Doug Ousterhout who is the pioneer in FFS and my surgeon but also almost a friend has told me  a few stories about patients who come for help. He said he is getting a lot of women who are post-op and have lived years in the role who are coming in for FFS because they no longer "pass." People nowadays are trans-aware and can easily see through the make-up. In cities where there are a lot of trans women, even "100%" passable women like me will get clocked.

The harsh reality is that most mid or late transitioners need FFS.
Posted on: November 16, 2006, 09:32:19 AM

---

Quote from: Julie Marie on November 15, 2006, 06:43:49 AM
There's a FFS surgeon not even 20 minutes away from my house who is described as an artist.  In comparing him to a very popular FFS surgeon (Dr.X) she said Dr X will make you passable, Dr Y will make you beautiful.  That has really got me thinking.  Thank you Robyn for the kind words but I have been read before just because of my face.  I can't change my bone structure.  I'll forever battle my deep voice but if I had a decidely feminine face it would sure make life easier.  And if it was beautiful it might open some doors for me that would normally be closed.

A lot of the girls here look to me like natural women but I'm seeing a 2D picture that most likely is the best one they can find.  That's what I do.  You'll never see a bad picture of me.  Why would I want to put my worst foot forward?  Kassandra has seen me in the flesh and if she was totally honest she'd probably tell you FFS would make a huge difference.  And you don't have to spend $40-50K to get that look.  A friend did a comparison between the famous Dr X and Dr Y and found Dr Y to be half the cost of Dr X.  And he's less invasive so there's a shorter healing time.

People will read your face first and they will do it in a couple of seconds.

Julie
 
   

I spent 18,600 to get where I am now but I am going to get my jaw and chin done, another 13k, but I was blessed with a very cute nose so I didn't need a rhinoplasty.


(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi123.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fo318%2Fmelissa90299%2Faaee54sm.jpg&hash=66cb86705f658fb9e09c74379699bdf9a644afa6)

Quote from: Ricki on November 16, 2006, 05:55:31 AM
Lori that was an awesome statement you mirrored some of my thoughts very well for me!
thanks
ricki

You are welcome. I guess to sum up my feelings, its not just what I want, its knowing what society is willing to accept. When in Rome do as the Romans do.

Quote from: melissa90299 on November 16, 2006, 09:52:23 AM
The harsh reality is that most mid or late transitioners need FFS.

Out of curiousity what age ranges would you apply to early, mid and late transition?

Quote from: melissa90299 on November 16, 2006, 09:52:23 AM
many who can't afford the surgery convince themselves they don't need it when in reality they do.

There are TSs who are self-confident enough to remain somewhat ambiguous. I don't think they're delusional - they're just very comfortable with who they are. For some, yes, it may be a case of sour grapes. But not for all.

I don't think I could do it though - being ambiguous that is. Maybe for a few months, but the *constant* stares and snickers would eventually wear me down. The harsh reality seems to be that most people will never consider me "truly female" unless I remove every last artifact of maleness (if that's even possible), and even THEN once/if they find out I wasn't born a girl, everything becomes invalid anyway.

Plus, to be honest, *I* don't want to look ambiguous to myself. I'm female, and I want to LOOK female. To the degree that I don't, well, that equals my dysphoria. I'm perfectly content within my own mind and emotions finally, but the physicality... that needs work ;)

FFS?  Yes.....while I don't have the brow issue common with genetic males or an adams apple or particularly masculine features I think I want some "tweaking" :P   

Besides...I'm approaching 40 and starting to see a few wrinkles around my eyes when I smile.  Since I have been staring at my face for almost 40 years I think maybe I've gotten so used to it that I don't really see the things that might stick out as masculine to other people.  I don't want to be delusional to the point that I don't consider all my options........

Quote from: Kate on November 16, 2006, 11:40:52 AM
I don't think I could do it though - being ambiguous that is. Maybe for a few months, but the *constant* stares and snickers would eventually wear me down.

I couldn't and that was my reality full time prior to FFS.  Stares, nudges, knowing looks, snickers behind my back.  I
braved it--I forced myself to--but I couldn't live like that forever.  We could get into a long philosophical discussion
here about real beauty as opposed to the shallow standards of the modern western world but it doesn't mean much
in the real world.  People are routinely judged on appearances, in chance encounters, job interviews, romance.  When
I've gone to meetings and listened to people struggling through transition, in many cases appearance was a problem. 
I didn't say so because hearing that doesn't help anyone.  Is it unfair?  Incredibly so.  But it's a reality that most of
us have to deal with.  My transition was easier because of it.  Those of you who don't need it or can live without it,
that's great.  For many of us, it's the difference between success in transition or relegation to the fringe of society.

The other issues about vanity or conceit are silly.  If people want to look better, age well, I see nothing wrong with
it.  Good cosmetic surgery does not fail after five years as suggested above.

Dawn

Quote from: DawnL on November 16, 2006, 01:47:49 PM

Quote from: Kate on November 16, 2006, 11:40:52 AM
I don't think I could do it though - being ambiguous that is. Maybe for a few months, but the *constant* stares and snickers would eventually wear me down.

  For many of us, it's the difference between success in transition or relegation to the fringe of society.

That is the reality. I was watching a documentary on LOGO on a late transitioner who was going through a lot of difficulty. She was getting ready to have her SRS and the end of the program was when she had her surgery and went to Key West and met some man in her bar and had her first contact with a man. Her presentation was AWFUL. She looked like an NFL linebacker in drag. I kept wondering why she didn't opt for FFS instead of, or at least, before SRS. And also wondered why her therapist would even approve here for SRS. Oddly, the program never explored her lack of passabilty. She even questioned why she would have to disclose to a potential lover that she was trans as if they couldn't already figure it out. (Besides her very male face, she had a big beer belly, big arms, legs and hands) I have seen a lot of women who look like her who think they pass just because someone occasionally calls them ma'am to be nice.

Hiee,
  Another thought that has come to mind considering FFS is this. Is it not largely in part due to

Internal Valadation versus External Valadation? I don't know perhaps I have just been lucky in that I

have not been overly beat up due to my looks. Have I heard the snickers and seen the looks, YES,

but over a year ago now. Do I think people are simply being polite to me when I am out in public,

not a chance, as experience has taught me that adults love to beat up on people they percieve as

being below them. In the end I suppose it comes down to the individual. For me I Want to be as

natural as I possibly can be. If people are going to judge me by my appearance only then to me they

have the depth of an OIL droplet on water, and I have no interest in them. Oh well just some more

of my musings on the subject.

Byee,
  Brina

Quote from: melissa90299 on November 16, 2006, 03:29:50 PM
She looked like an NFL linebacker in drag. I kept wondering why she didn't opt for FFS instead of, or at least, before SRS. And also wondered why her therapist would even approve here for SRS. Oddly, the program never explored her lack of passabilty.

Neither passability nor beauty are requirements for SRS or transition in general.

My hubby told me the other night that when he retires in 4 years, at 52, he intends to go in for some major work.  I've never heard him say anything like that before.  I'm pretty sure that he was joking.  But I chimed in:  "I want some too!" as I thought about the bump on my throat.  He said "Cool, we can go together".

I would like to get rid of it but I've lived so long with it that I don't know if it makes all that much sense at this point.  Besides, I didn't even think it of it as a problem until I started participating in the forums here.  It's funny how you can be influenced by all of this in a negative way.

Cindi

Quote from: Kate on November 16, 2006, 05:10:54 PM

Quote from: melissa90299 on November 16, 2006, 03:29:50 PM
She looked like an NFL linebacker in drag. I kept wondering why she didn't opt for FFS instead of, or at least, before SRS. And also wondered why her therapist would even approve here for SRS. Oddly, the program never explored her lack of passabilty.

Neither passability nor beauty are requirements for SRS or transition in general.

I concur with Kate on this.

Quote from: Melissa90299Oddly, the program never explored her lack of passabilty

Probably because the program was about transsexualism and not about physical beauty ;)


tinkerbell :icon_chick:

Quote from: Tinkerbell on November 16, 2006, 05:42:02 PM

Quote from: Kate on November 16, 2006, 05:10:54 PM

Quote from: melissa90299 on November 16, 2006, 03:29:50 PM
She looked like an NFL linebacker in drag. I kept wondering why she didn't opt for FFS instead of, or at least, before SRS. And also wondered why her therapist would even approve here for SRS. Oddly, the program never explored her lack of passabilty.

Neither passability nor beauty are requirements for SRS or transition in general.

I concur with Kate on this.

Quote from: Melissa90299Oddly, the program never explored her lack of passabilty

Probably because the program was about transsexualism and not about physical beauty ;)


tinkerbell :icon_chick:

I hate to sound cynical, but showing a well "indistinguishable" TS isn't something the news media is ready for yet.  Remember, they still get ratings for showing us as nothing but a bunch of freaks.

Oh and as for the "linebacker in drag", my mom golfs with a natal female that looks like that.

Quote from: Tinkerbell on November 16, 2006, 05:42:02 PM

Quote from: Melissa90299Oddly, the program never explored her lack of passabilty

Probably because the program was about transsexualism and not about physical beauty ;)
tinkerbell :icon_chick:

The ability to pass isn't necessary about beauty and any program discussing transsexualism should
certainly address the issue since so many of us spend so much time talking and thinking about it.

Dawn

Quote from: DawnL on November 16, 2006, 07:15:50 PM

Quote from: Tinkerbell on November 16, 2006, 05:42:02 PM

Quote from: Melissa90299Oddly, the program never explored her lack of passabilty

Probably because the program was about transsexualism and not about physical beauty ;)
tinkerbell :icon_chick:

The ability to pass isn't necessary about beauty and any program discussing transsexualism should
certainly address the issue since so many of us spend so much time talking and thinking about it.

Dawn

You are right.  The ability to pass isn't but having cosmetic surgery to improve your male features is.  I still haven't seen a transformed face by FFS that is not beautiful.  And although most of us spend so much time talking and thinking about passing, in the end transsexualism is still about gender incongruity and FFS is a type of cosmetic procedure.....oranges and bananas in other words...


tinkerbell :icon_chick:

P.S.  From one of the greatest FFS surgeons' website..... BEAUTY (http://www.beautyanalysis.com/index2_mba.htm).

[quote author=Tinkerbell link=topic=7839.msg56304#msg56304 dat

The ability to pass isn't necessary about beauty and any program discussing transsexualism should
certainly address the issue since so many of us spend so much time talking and thinking about it.

Dawn
[/quote]

QuoteI still haven't seen a transformed face by FFS that is not beautiful.

Oh thank you! I am assuming that you have seen the pics I posted. :) But not all women who have had FFS are beautiful, far from it:

http://beginninglife.com/FFS.htm

Article on Dr Ousterhout (http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2006/04/26/DDGEMIEF771.DTL)

QuoteClaire Roberts had tried plastic surgery: two nose jobs, plus a surgical procedure in which her jawbone was shaved down to create a softer contour.

But nothing really worked. A transsexual who decided late in life to transition to female gender, Roberts went to San Francisco plastic surgeon Douglas Ousterhout last fall and requested a new face. She wanted to "pass," which in her case meant altering a Governator jaw, a large nose and a low, protruding brow line that "made me feel about as feminine as one of the females in 'Planet of the Apes.'

"I felt like I could not shift over to a full-time gender position until my face -- my identity -- was correct," explains Roberts. The 59-year-old Seattle musician and retired business executive is 6 feet tall and has a 25-year-old son. He found out about Ousterhout's innovative facial feminization surgery online and decided to take the leap. The results, five months later, are dramatic: instead of the receding hairline, lantern jaw and (actor) Geoffrey Rush profile, Roberts is a perfectly plausible female.

Ousterhout, who practices at the California Pacific Medical Center's Davies campus on Castro Street, is widely considered the country's foremost facial feminization surgeon. This is because of the cranial and maxillofacial techniques he developed to change the shape of the skull. Unlike most plastic surgeons with their standard menu of tummy tucks, eyelid lifts and rhinoplasties, Ousterhout, 70, brings skills he acquired at the Center for Craniofacial Anomalies at the UCSF Medical Center, where for 25 years he was head surgeon and worked on children born with severe skull deformities. In 1998, when HMOs reduced reimbursements for skull surgery ("I wasn't going to be able to afford my practice"), he switched to female feminization surgery full time.

"Most plastic surgeons aren't bone doctors," Ousterhout says, "and never spend time really analyzing the difference between the female and male skull." None, he claims, delivers the radical results he's achieved with 918 procedures beginning in 1978.

Surgeons who perform the work are rare. Ousterhout declined to estimate the current number, but Chicago plastic surgeon Mark L. Zukowski, who performs 80 to 100 facial feminizations per year, guesses there are "at most 12 (doctors) in the world, with three or four top people." Beverly Hills surgeon Gary Alter, whose practice also includes sexual reassignment and labiaplasty, is one of the more prominent specialists and does about 50 facial feminization operations per year.

For $22,000 to $40,000 -- roughly twice the cost of sexual reassignment surgery -- Ousterhout's patients undergo as much as 10 1/2 hours of surgery. They remain in the hospital two days after surgery, then transfer to the Cocoon House, a bed-and-breakfast facility run by two nurses in Noe Valley, for eight days of convalescence.

Eighty-five to 90 percent of Ousterhout's patients are transgender. Ninety-five percent come from outside the Bay Area. "I have one patient who wants the surgery so badly," he says. "She's in a coal-mining town somewhere in Kentucky and she says, 'I don't dare dress as a female where anybody can see me. Literally, I'll be killed.' And she's probably right."

Most of Ousterhout's patients, like Stacy Windsor of British Columbia, grew up thinking they were accidents of nature. "I figured out that I was supposed to be a girl when I was 5, when I was in kindergarten," she says. "For some reason there'd been this terrible mistake."

At 24, Windsor (not her real name) is one of Ousterhout's youngest surgical patients. Six feet two and lanky, a computer programmer who started taking female hormones and dressing as a woman at 19, Windsor came to San Francisco after researching Ousterhout on the Internet and reading testimonials.

Her mother, Karen, has flown in from southern Ontario to be at her child's side throughout the surgery and recovery. "She's my baby," Karen says. Not supporting her would be unthinkable, she adds, especially when "one of three transsexuals ends her life before the age of 30."

"It's pretty rare, sadly," Windsor says of her parents' support. "I had read all these horror stories on the Internet saying, 'If you're still living with your parents, be packed and ready to go when you come out to them.' And of course they were both totally fine with it."

Windsor, who looks like Hilary Swank in "Boys Don't Cry" -- only much more feminine -- is speaking in a private room at Ousterhout's office, its walls covered in plaques and diplomas from Ousterhout's long career. She's nervous about being exposed, especially at work, where everyone assumes she's a biological female. She asks not to be photographed for this story, or identified by her real name.

The procedure, she hopes, will help her not only to pass but also to feel more "integrated" in her female identity. "I'm having the jaw tapered," she says. "And I'm going to have the chin reduced and brought forward."

The male skull, Ousterhout explains, has more hooding over the eyes, whereas females have a more "open, convex orbit." During facial feminization surgery, Ousterhout pulls the face back from the forehead and removes part of the forehead bone, leaving a more feminine contour. The chin, which in men is wider and 20 percent longer than the female mandible, is reduced to female size and shape through a process called a sliding genioplasty. "It's like taking out the salami between two pieces of bread," he says.

"I also don't like the width of my nose," Windsor adds. In fact, it's as masculine and unavoidable as Adrien Brody's. The surgery will also lift her upper lip closer to her nose, allowing for a more feminine smile. It's a subtle difference, Ousterhout says, but men have a vertically longer upper lip than women. It's not noticeable when they smile, but when a man's lips are parted a few millimeters, the upper teeth are hidden. Ousterhout shortens the upper lip by making an incision immediately beneath the sill of the nose.

Last of all, the most obvious factor and biggest giveaway for transsexuals is the thyroid cartilage, or Adam's apple. While many surgeons make a small transverse incision in the front of the neck, immediately above the cartilage prominence, Ousterhout approaches it through an incision just behind the chin to leave less obvious scarring.

Eight days after her surgery, a few hours after her sutures and bandages are removed, Windsor welcomes me to the Cocoon House, where she's been napping and blunting the post-op edge with a series of gradually less potent pain pills. Her face is a bit pumpkin-like with orange and purple bruises and swelling around her nose, chin and jaw. Her voice is a tad weary.

"It's a horribly painful operation to recover from," Stacy says. "I was under anesthesia 13 hours. Transplants don't take 13 hours!" When the bandages were removed and she saw her new face, "I popped a Valium. It's such a huge change from how I looked before." For the next six weeks, Stacy has to take saline nasal spray six times a day. She can't wear glasses, a bicycle helmet or any kind of protective headgear for six months. Six days after our last visit, she sends an e-mail from British Columbia:

"My scalp incision shed a lot of hair around the edges, making me sensitive about people noticing it. And there's new stubble there, which will be a complete pain in the butt to style in about a month. I can't pluck my eyebrows because of risk of infection. ... I basically look like Stalin, or Bert from 'Sesame Street.'

"It's all stuff that's going to be just fine in the long term," she adds. "It's just gross now."

Stacy sees the facial surgery as being more about identity than vanity. She was homeless and on drugs two years ago, and says the expensive procedure -- $35,000 in her case -- was possible only because a family friend volunteered to front the cash. "Even if I'd found work in a field where I did well financially, it would've taken 10 years to save that much money."

"Ten really difficult years," her mother adds.

"I have a new opportunity here with the new face," Stacy says. "For the majority of Dr. O's patients, it's the difference between a very successful life and a sad and lonely, little life."

Not everyone agrees that FFS is desirable for transitioning transsexuals. San Francisco entertainer Veronica Klaus had genital reassignment surgery and breast augmentation but decided against facial surgery. "While I think it can be an important step in realizing one's potential, it's more important that one's self-esteem come first from the inside."

Lannie Rose, a San Jose author and transgender person. recommends facial feminization surgery only "if you have particularly masculine features and are having a difficult time passing in most circumstances." In her book, "How to Change Your Sex," Rose warns, "Although FFS is startlingly effective in feminizing the face, it only creates confusion if you wind up with a feminine-looking face on top of a linebacker's body; or very feminine features on a face that's still too damn large."

She's got a point: Think of Roberta Muldoon, the professional football player-turned-lady played by John Lithgow in "The World According to Garp." Or Roy "Ruth" Applewood, a Midwestern husband and dad, played by the bearish Tom Wilkinson, who shocks his family by coming out as transgender in the cable drama "Normal."

In fact, Ousterhout says, the size of the face is modified through FFS: "By reducing the forehead length through scalp advancement to a female position, and by reducing the vertical height of the chin in the sliding genioplasty, the face is made smaller in all regards."

For patients like Roberts, who go through life thinking of themselves as women despite a body that claims otherwise and then gradually find the courage to make the transition, Ousterhout's makeovers are life-changers. "The best way to describe this procedure and its impact on my life is that for the first time in 59 years my outside looks something like my inside."

Before FFS, Roberts says, "I thought I was ugly. I finally figured out that I didn't regard myself as ugly, but rather 'wrong.' The image in the picture was not me. Now it is, and that fact is so profound for me that I am still giddy from it!"

When the work was finished and she looked in the mirror, Roberts adds, "I said, 'Oh my God, I look like my mother!' While most women make this statement with chagrin, I made it with real joy. Actually, it's quite an overstatement since my mother was truly beautiful -- but I can now see much of her is in me, which touches me deeply."

Quote from: Julie Marie on November 15, 2006, 06:43:49 AM

A lot of the girls here look to me like natural women but I'm seeing a 2D picture that most likely is the best one they can find.  That's what I do.  You'll never see a bad picture of me.  Why would I want to put my worst foot forward?  Kassandra has seen me in the flesh and if she was totally honest she'd probably tell you FFS would make a huge difference.  And you don't have to spend $40-50K to get that look.  A friend did a comparison between the famous Dr X and Dr Y and found Dr Y to be half the cost of Dr X.  And he's less invasive so there's a shorter healing time.

People will read your face first and they will do it in a couple of seconds.

Julie

Yes, Julie and I have met.  Think Lucy and Ethyl if you want to get an idea of how we get along...  :D

I personally think that she is being too hard on herself.  Of course just about anyone's apperance could be improved with a gentle application of sugical skill, and yes, Julie, FFS would probably make you 99 44/100% indistuguisable from a natal female.  And beautiful.  But realize you are already about 85-90% there already.  And really very pretty. 

In comparison, my cro-magnon features would require a jack hammer and bondo to smooth and soften into more feminine lines.  And even then I think I'd still have to sneak up on a glass of water...

Tell you what, Julie.  When you trade your face in, let me have your old one!  OK?

-Sandy (The ugly step sister)

Few of us, if any, have been mistaken for natal females prior to beginning transition.  Why is that?  Is it because we have years, maybe even decades, of feedback where people read us as males?  I doubt that's the only reason.  Being comfortable in your own skin is indeed a major factor in passing but if you are battling major male features or are in the company of people educated in the difference, the chances of passing decrease dramatically.

I was watching "House" the other night.  Dr House, who is known for being quite brutal with people, was trying to get his understudy to drop his focus on a pretty girl he was hitting on at a party.  House says, "No Adams apple, small hands, good sign."  Then the girl leaves in disgust thinking the understudy is into TSs.  Immediately I thought that TV was teaching the unaware how to spot a transsexual.  How many other times has something like this been put before the general public?  And kids today are more aware of our existence than ever.  Passing will become harder and harder.  A decidedly feminine face will at least create sufficient doubt that the average person will play it safe and treat you as female.

Not everyone wants to go through life fighting to be seen on the outside the way they feel on the inside.  And even fewer can ignore the looks and stares one gets when they are clocked.  A person born with a physical facial deformity will learn how to handle the insensitive gawkers they encounter in life.  But ask them if they could have an operation that would make them look normal would they do it, I'll bet almost all would opt for the operation.  There are enough challenges in life without having to battle just to get to ground zero.

Sandy, you are too kind, as always.  But I have some make markers I will have to deal with all my life.  Each one requires some energy to overcome.  Sometimes that comes in the form of physical energy, sometimes mental energy.  But each one saps some energy from me.  And with that energy used up it gives me less to deal with all the usual things one has to deal with in an average day.  The more male markers I can eliminate, the easier life will be. 

Right now, transitioning has created a problem on the opposite end of the spectrum.  I get looks at work that have me wondering if I am being read as a transsexual, mostly from the young guys.  Long hair, boobs, facial changes and even mannerisms will give me away to the trained eye.  And that makes me uncomfortable.  I can do all the mind games with myself that I want but it's still going to bother me.  When I fully transition I expect to get clocked once in a while.  But if it happens all the time it will eventually wear on me.  Battling being female inside, while pretending to be male because my body is male, has been wearing on me all my life, and I'm getting tired.  Transitioning has given me great peace of mind but if I complete my transition and I still have that battle going on, this time trying to pass, I will never find real peace.  The battle will still go on.

There isn't enough years left in my life to do all the things I need to do to be able to pass 95% of the time, not to mention the cost.  But I don't need to pass 95% of the time, 75% would be great.  That means only 1/4 of my waking hours will I have to deal with trying to get the same respect as a natal woman.  The rest of the time I can go about my day living the way it should have been.  I believe having FFS by a skilled surgeon will give me that opportunity.  And thinking about living a life where I'm not in a constant battle gives me lasting peace of mind.

I still have to overcome the concerns about having surgery with all its potential dangers, possibly not being happy with the results (I've read many stories where one has gone back four, five or more times to make adjustments), taking a substantial portion out of my retirement money, all in hopes of accomplishing a goal some might see as feeding my vanity.  I've never had surgery of any kind in my life and I have no idea what to expect.  But when I imagine being able to look in the mirror and see a woman, especially when I'm not wearing makeup, that creates an inner peace I couldn't get any other way.

Julie

There are plenty of "natal females" that get work done to feel more attractive and there's really not anything wrong with that, it's a personal choice. If you feel that you need it to be satsified with yourself, then you should absolutely take it into consideration. 

As a girl of Italain heritage, I will say that I don't consider a nose to be overlarge until it has its own calling area, so I'm not going to be much help as far as my opinion goes on who should get a nose job.

But, I will say that as a "natal female" I dislike my forehead (I call it my fivehead) but these are the nitpicky things that plague all girls. However, as long as my bangs will cover it, it doesn't bother me enough to consider surgery, but if it did, I'd save up for surgery!  If it bothers you enough, hey, go for it! I could ramble on about inner beauty because I personally believe that's what really matters, however, I am no longer naive enough to believe that the world actually operates that way.

By the way, I really like the term "natal female", I haven't heard it until this thread but I like the sound of it a lot more than GG. GG kinda sounds like a sex toy or something. Ewww....

Quote from: angelsgirl on November 17, 2006, 09:47:51 AM

By the way, I really like the term "natal female", I haven't heard it until this thread but I like the sound of it a lot more than GG. GG kinda sounds like a sex toy or something. Ewww....

Oh an article I read on TS children referred to "her male-bodied daughter" and a couple "female-bodied sons".  GG is just so antiquated.  I've heard from alot of old, old TS that they used to be referred as "Changes", you know the emphasis on it being a "Sex Change".

Quote from: Julie Marie on November 17, 2006, 02:06:56 AM
Few of us, if any, have been mistaken for natal females prior to beginning transition.  Why is that?  Is it because we have years, maybe even decades, of feedback where people read us as males?  I doubt that's the only reason.  Being comfortable in your own skin is indeed a major factor in passing but if you are battling major male features or are in the company of people educated in the difference, the chances of passing decrease dramatically.

Yes and even for me, unless I put on tons of makeup and wore a wig, that never happened.  When I presented as male, I was seen as male 100% of the time.  I had almost 3 decades of this.  So then I go to transition and the effects of the hormones and my hair growing just have me reeling.  I mean it definitely took some getting used to and was completely unexpected.  I wish everyone were able to experience this.  I do know there are some really good looking girls on here (Melissa eyes Julie and Kate and a couple others) who just think they don't pass with their face, but I think they do.

That being said, I think people who are not 100% passable in terms of facial features or possibly even body can still pass really well.  It's all in appearing to be comfortable with yourself, living as if you have always been female (since you technically have mentally), and just acting your natural self.  It may take some unlearning of male mannerisms, but dropping them can actually be a relief.  If you truly see yourself as a female, then why can't you just be yourself?

Melissa

Quote from: Melissa on November 17, 2006, 11:08:02 AMI do know there are some really good looking girls on here (Melissa eyes Julie and Kate and a couple others) who just think they don't pass with their face, but I think they do.

Awl, thank you, that IS nice to hear... though I'll probably forever doubt myself until it happens ;)

QuoteThat being said, I think people who are not 100% passable in terms of facial features or possibly even body can still pass really well.  It's all in appearing to be comfortable with yourself, living as if you have always been female (since you technically have mentally), and just acting your natural self.

Very, very true. One of the TSs in my support group fascinates me, as she's just so darn PERFECT. But not necessarily in terms of features. While she is pretty, I'm sure you could pull her apart feature-by-feature and see masculine traits, and yet... she's just so darn believable. In terms of an overall perception, she's just an ordinary woman. It's the sum total that makes her female in perception, and NOT having the perfect chin or nose.

I'll admit that there are limits of course. For some of us, FFS is indeed required in order to pass reliably. But as you suggest, I also believe it's possible to overcome many physical traits through behaviour, gesture, expression, etc.

The only things I would ever look to change would be my nose it has a wide flat part near the bridge and  I would get a Treachea shave should the money every be available.

Rei

I hate my nose, if I weren't going to transition I'd probably still get it done.  Other then that my only concern is my chin.

You know ....

I build and sell telescopes.  I outfit them with a very sophisticated goto and tracking system.  Lot's of people don't have tracking and goto on their telescopes.  For them, it is "not needed" and it is "cheating" to not be able to point your scope at an object in the sky.  It all boils down to money.  I've seen die hards melt once they use a tracking system and the very first thing they do when they have the cash is get a scope with all the good stuff on it.

So it is with FFS and the other surgeries.  If we can't afford it, we pass on it.  I did.  If I had the cash for it right now, I'd probably spring for it. Shoot... why not?  And if I could afford it, I'd have a personal trainer live with me along with a chef who would feed me only what I need to eat ;)

I think that it is absolutely wonderful that they have been able to perfect the surgeries to be so successful.  I checked out the website listed above and there are some very pretty faces there.  If you can do it, go for it! Life is too short to not get something that actually makes some sense!

Cindi

Quote from: Kate on November 17, 2006, 01:33:40 PM

QuoteThat being said, I think people who are not 100% passable in terms of facial features or possibly even body can still pass really well.  It's all in appearing to be comfortable with yourself, living as if you have always been female (since you technically have mentally), and just acting your natural self.

Very, very true. One of the TSs in my support group fascinates me, as she's just so darn PERFECT. But not necessarily in terms of features. While she is pretty, I'm sure you could pull her apart feature-by-feature and see masculine traits, and yet... she's just so darn believable. In terms of an overall perception, she's just an ordinary woman. It's the sum total that makes her female in perception, and NOT having the perfect chin or nose.

Yes, exactly and what I described is pretty much the mindset you need to have in order to pull it off.

Melissa

Being pretty or stunningly beautiful is not really an aim of FFS, unless you have a very feminine face and well developed other feminine features (such as a fantastic body, hips etc)

I have a few friends who are extremely pretty BUT still get read, because they suffer physically in other areas (such as height, one is 6ft 3 ins or size of hands, feet etc.) We have already said through this topic that FFS is part of the package that should include voice, hair removal, mannerisms etc.

No matter how convincing we look physically, without the upbringing of a young girl and the conditioning that goes with that, we will eventually make mistakes (or rather display some male mannerisms) that can give us away.

In general I would think in most peoples requirement of FFS is to feminise the face such that that first look by anybody remains that, a first look, no second look, no lingering and prolonged stare that can lead to the onlooker being unsure of ones Gender.

People have an expectation (in general) what Males and Females look like, all we do in FFS is further that perception. A more angled jaw, softer lines on the forehead, a slightly turned up nose, a flat forehead with eyebrows raised in the same plane, pronounced cheekbones etc...Indicate to most people Female.

Back this up further with a feminine hair style, nice jewellery and good make up and the perception is further increased... that one, first look is the most important, people form and make an opinion in seconds.

I do know people that have feminine faces and I agree that they have no requirement for FFS, they pass without issues facially.

Before FFS, I would get this frequently while out in public and it can be very disconcerting, after FFS I can say that this has not been the case. I went shopping today, jeans and T-shirt, no make up, studs as earrings, my hair tied back in a pony tail. Before FFS I would never not wear make up or a pony tail.

FFS does bring a greater confidence an acceptance in ones own ability to pass and that is the most important thing, confidence.

It is also a very personal thing and I had clear ideas of what I thought I needed to feminise my face. This was backed up by 3 of the 4 surgeons I spoke and consulted with, which again gave me confidence that I was on the right path.

Overall in my transition, FFS probably means more to me than SRS. SRS was never going to increase my ability to pass, it was just the final alignment between mind and body and was the final piece in the jigsaw to allow me to function sexually as a woman.

Every transition is different, we all set out with one aim and that is to be the women we truly are. If we can achieve that without having major surgery, that is a bonus, If we are happy and contented in our appearance that is fantastic, but many of us through the ravages of testosterone need to change and reverse that process, that is a personal choice.

Buffy

Quote from: Rommie on November 18, 2006, 12:54:02 PM
The first time I ever decided to cut Julie some slack with "You guys don't understand why I realize I have work to do." (regarding her passing) was when I saw her head to head next to a woman.  Julie's beautiful face still showed, but next to a natal woman you could see that Julie had a large skull.  I had only seen her alone.  I freaked immediately because I know I've got a head the size of Gazzoo on the Flintstones.  I now know that a lot of famous women who are gorgeous have big ass heads, but they are still beautiful, just like Julie (not the big ass head part.. that's me). :D 

I'm flattered!  You are too kind.  And I appreciate your honesty.  Yes, I have a big head.  It was the source of many a criticism from my friends growing up.  And I have no idea if FFS will help in making it look less large.  Hair seems to help a bit.  But when I remember a comment Merv Griffin made when he picked Vanna White for the letter girl, "I was looking for a pretty woman with a large head because I wanted to accentuate her beauty" (something like that) I realize it doesn't have to be a detriment.  Actually I never needed that comment to make me feel better about my hat size.  It's something I accept.  But I have a picture of me and some friends, all GGs, and the girl right next to me REALLY makes my head size stand out!  But she has a dinky head.
What did I tell you?  Did your jaw drop?

It's interesting you had the initial reaction where you weren't buying my self analysis.  And then after doing a comparison you saw some of what I see every day.  What I don't show is how I look without makeup or my hair fixed up.  No one with decent vision would read me for being a woman.  I have to work the makeup pretty hard to get a half way passing face.  Still, I get clocked, a lot.  Would FFS solve that?  Probably not but it may reduce it somewhat.  I really doubt anything would get me to 100% passing.  So I have to learn to accept myself for however I look.  It doesn't mean I don't get down on myself once in a while.  What fun would that be if I couldn't engage in a bit of self-loathing?

Julie

Julie,

If you go to Dr. Ousterhout and do what he recommends, you will pass 100% as far as your face is concerned. (and I don't see anything in the rest of you that would give you away but I can't hear your voice. Like me, you might want to do it in two steps.

In your case, you have a really wide jaw and a rather long upper lip, a lip lift and a sliding genioplasty would works wonders, that's about 18-20k. Your forhead and brows aren't that bad, and I can't see how high your scalp is. But your second step would be the forehead, brow lift and, if you need it, a scalp advance. We haven't talked about your nose but it looks pretty good form what I see.

Dr. O will reduce the appearance of the size of your head, that's what he does.

I am having a sliding genioplasty Dec 11th so you will be able to see the before and afters.

Personally speaking, I never knew I wanted or needed FFS until I heard of the procedure.

My friends and doctors tell me I don't need it but there's this nagging doubt that is amplified and distorted by feelings of low self-esteem at times, something that seems to have got far worse after GRS; I'm assuming it's part and parcel of the hormone thing going on...

Still, at the very least, a rhinoplasty to put my nose back the way it was before it was broken when I was 17 would be nice.

Needing FFS?  I don't feel I do.  Sure there are some features I would love to improve, but that's the same for many natal females.  I consider it a very low priority and a nicety.  I'd love to get my jaw reduced and a couple of other minor procedures, but I don't know if I will ever get around to spending that kind of money.  Hmm, I hope I'm not repeating myself. :P  Well, I know there are plenty of natal women that could also use FFS, so why do I need to be a beauty queen?

Melissa

Again, it's not about beauty. It's about (ugh!) "passing" completely and unequivocally.

Funny, before FFS I used to get comments from people saying  that I was "really pretty." It was nice to hear but I suspected ---and now my suspicion is confirmed since I don't get that anymore---that what they were really saying was "You are really pretty FOR A GUY!!!

It's also about looking at yourself  in the mirror and seeing a woman. I am almost there but not quite that is why I decided to have my jaw and chin done.

For me, FFS is an investment too because I am an outside sales rep. The way I look is essential to my continued success and job security. A lot of GGs in  my field opt for cosmetic surgeries to keep/make themselves more attractive. It's just a fact of life that women are judged by the way they look. It shouldn't be that way but it just is. BTW I might point out that Dr. O has performed FFS on many "natal women." Society looks at masculine features on a woman as unattractive. That's just the way it is.

Posted on: November 23, 2006, 08:30:23 AM

---

Quote from: misty on November 22, 2006, 04:54:46 PM
hi julie....you have a lovely face

large head.....its the proportions that counts!!....large or small

you have it....you have a lovely face

so feminine..........i love your face

keep your proportions & keep your beauty & your character

take care

misty xxx

Julie is very pretty AND very attractive. If she is happy as she is then I too would advise her not to waste her money on FFS.

My goodness!  I haven't visited this thread for several days and when I do I see all these compliments.  Thank you!  Thank you!  Thank you!  Funny thing, is I was in a down mood.  I'm stressing about going to my sister's house today and having her and her family see the real me for the first time and I have been tearing myself apart all morning.  I've been at it since 4AM, that was five hours ago.  Then I see these compliments and all of the sudden things don't seem so bad.  Again, thank you very much.

As for FFS, I know I could use some help.  The other day I went out to pick up a prescription and some groceries.  It was late in the day and I just didn't want to put on makeup just to go out.  So I went with what I was wearing.  Everything was ladies' clothing and I had earrings and a ladies' watch too.  I didn't get one funny look and I made as much eye contact as I could.  Everyone seemed to react to me as if was a normal everyday........ GUY!  "Thank you sir, come again."  :-\

Would FFS help?  Probably but I'll have to admit after all I've heard from the FFS forum it's scary.

First thing is to get rid of the beard.  Then I'll try the grocery store test again.  ::)

Julie

Julie, 

Yea.. .the beard is a huge tell.  And that is something that most everyone can work on.  Once you get rid of that, you'll find things have changed significantly.

Enjoy your day with your family.  You'll be surprised at how well it will come off.

Take care,

Cindi

After lurking this thread for awhile, and thinking of the pros and cons of FFS, I believe it's time for me to ask some questions (well, at least one...)

Is there any place I can go, either on the web or in person, where I can see what results I might possibly attain with my face and different procedures?

What would be great is to be able to submit a hi-rez technical photo of my face, and then have it evaluated and then modified to show the minimum attainable results.

All this talk about what is possible and should you/shouldn't you doesn't answer that core question for me.  I guess the core questions are what is the Return On Investment vis passing and acceptance, and is there a 'sweet spot' where I get maximum ROI?

BTW, Tinkerbell, that was an interesting link on beauty.  But I wonder what the practical application would be.  Could they do an analysis on my face and determine what features on my face HAD to be modified to conform to the human notion of feminine beauty, and could it guide the surgeon and his scalpel?

Last thought.  This topic (and several other recent hot topics,) are centering around the notion of beauty and acceptance.  Humans do have a built-in beauty sense.  Maybe I'll start a new topic, once I figure out which forum to put it into...

Karen

Quote from: Karen on November 24, 2006, 09:41:30 AM
Is there any place I can go, either on the web or in person, where I can see what results I might possibly attain with my face and different procedures?

What would be great is to be able to submit a hi-rez technical photo of my face, and then have it evaluated and then modified to show the minimum attainable results.

Yes, see http://www.virtualffs.co.uk/

Melissa

From the neck up the telltale markers are:
1 -10. Beard shadow!  This is a must to eliminate.  Fortunately everyone has the genetics to do this.  As far as the money  ???

From there, in no particular order,

Brow ridge - if it's to large and can't be hidden by bangs you might need brow bossing done.  It can be done without majorly aggressive surgery.

Adam's apple - again, the larger it is the more of a tell it is.  Turtle necks may help but if you want to sport some cleavage, well....

Jaw - we all know what a masculine jaw looks like.  Some women have it and it's no problem.  TSs have to add up all the male markers they have to decide if this pushes them over the top.

Location of eyebrows - if you can pluck an acceptable shape and are good with a brow pencil you can pass on a brow lift.  If you decide to have a brow lift beware the "surprised look".  :o  Some surgeons overdo the lift and you end up with that surprised look.

Hairline - if you've lost a lot of hair some may come back with HRT.  But it seems the part above the forehead is the most difficult to regain.  A scalp advance is a common procedure and moves your existing hairline forward to a more feminine hairline.

After that there's a number of things you can do to improve appearance, face lift, eyelid lift, implants and even dental feminization.  If you have $50K just sitting there and you don't know what to do with it, FFS may be a good way to invest that money.  Most initial procedures run about $30K but the $50K figure is an amount many who have had FFS, and subsequent fine tuning, say is the eventual cost.

Julie

Ouch!  This has to be the hardest part of transition for those who go through it. There is so much pain and cost! It's hard to imagine....

Cindi

Quote from: Cindianna_Jones on November 25, 2006, 04:08:55 AM
Ouch!  This has to be the hardest part of transition for those who go through it. There is so much pain and cost! It's hard to imagine....

Cindi

Cindi, I can't tell you how many stories I've read describing girls doing all I mentioned and even more.  It almost seems like an addiction.  And when asked if they would go back and do it all over the vast majority say yes.  I have a difficult time imagining myself doing it but when inundated with so many positive accounts of how FFS changed the lives of these women for the better, I have to give it some consideration.

The cost alone may preclude me from indulging.  But I have thought of utilizing Virtual FFS to see what is possible.  If I saw something I couldn't live without I would certainly be tempted to do it.  But first I have to make sure I have my retirement set to a tolerable level.

Julie

Lisa, every surgeon has his own way of doing things.  Dr O is noted for being pretty aggressive.  Dr Z much less so.  There's a lot of others to choose from, and that's just in the US.  Some travel to Thailand to get the works done because there's some cost savings and it's said the surgeons are just as skilled.  Whatever you decide to do make sure you do your homework.  It took me over a year to settle on someone I felt confident about and I'm not even sure I'll have FFS.

Julie

IMNSHO, there are two categories of FFS surgeons. There is Dr. Ousterhout and everyone else. He quite literally wrote the book. He has never had a major problem in the OR. I wouldn't trust my face to anyone but the best and most experienced. Without any question, that is Dr. Douglas Ousterhout.

Quote from: melissa90299 on November 27, 2006, 10:54:27 PM
IMNSHO, there are two categories of FFS surgeons. There is Dr. Ousterhout and everyone else.

I agree totally!

tinkerbell :icon_chick:

While I know Dr O is the pioneer of FFS and I have nothing but the greatest respect for him, each face and each person has unique issues.  Everyone must decide for themselves which doctor best suits their needs. 

Julie

Quote from: melissa90299 on November 27, 2006, 10:54:27 PM
IMNSHO, there are two categories of FFS surgeons. There is Dr. Ousterhout and everyone else. He quite literally wrote the book. He has never had a major problem in the OR. I wouldn't trust my face to anyone but the best and most experienced. Without any question, that is Dr. Douglas Ousterhout.

I agree that he is definitely one of the best if not the best, but he is also the most expensive and the most aggressive.  I have heard of many more "numbness" stories from his work than anyone else, because his technique slices along some major nerves that may not ever reconnect.  Now if I can get great results from another surgeon with less numb areas for a lower price, then I would probably go with that doctor.  But, like Julie said:

Quote from: Julie Marie on November 28, 2006, 12:54:39 PM
Everyone must decide for themselves which doctor best suits their needs.

Melissa

Quote from: Julie Marie on November 28, 2006, 12:54:39 PM
While I know Dr O is the pioneer of FFS and I have nothing but the greatest respect for him, each face and each person has unique issues.  Everyone must decide for themselves which doctor best suits their needs.

Agreed, I mean we've both watched the flame wars on another forum... wow, do people get passionate about their particular doctors!!!

Me, I'm keeping an open mind and researching the strengths and weaknesses of each. It apparently also depends on what you need: shaving, reconstruction, or whatever. There's no one doctor and technique that's best for everyone, though I realize not everyone feels that way.

I'm still leaning towards Z myself... I melted when he called me "honey" at the end of our conversation, lol...

Rereading this thread again as I've now definitely decided to have some form of FFS in about 18 months time, the degree of which has yet to be decided, let alone where in the world I'll get it done. I'm lucky to be passable, have a very good voice (so I've been told), live in almost-stealth but despite everything being finished some time ago (electro, GRS) I still get occasionally read and seeing as I'm only 5'6", it's not a height thing. I'm just starting to research my options now especially as I might not need the full 'works'...

A future face-lift might also be on the cards. As melissa90299 said, depending on your line of work, a women's appearance can have an impact on their career and I work in a very image-conscious industry. If that makes me shallow, then so be it.

One thing, though. Many of you have mentioned an FFS forum in this thread. Could someone please post a link to it or if that's not forum-friendly, then please PM it to me. I'd be ever so grateful...

Thanks in advance :)


Edit: Have now got the info I was looking for. Thanks to all who PMd me.

Quote from: Julie Marie on November 28, 2006, 12:54:39 PM
While I know Dr O is the pioneer of FFS and I have nothing but the greatest respect for him, each face and each person has unique issues.  Everyone must decide for themselves which doctor best suits their needs. 

Julie

I would disagree with that to the point that most women want the same thing: feminization. If that's what one wants, IMO no one does it better than Dr. O. Now (I have heard) that others can make you look glamorous. But if it's feminization one wants, Doug is da man. 5 more days, need to start my Vitamin K, I almost forgot!

Quote from: melissa90299 on December 05, 2006, 09:19:14 PM
I would disagree with that to the point that most women want the same thing: feminization. If that's what one wants, IMO no one does it better than Dr. O. Now (I have heard) that others can make you look glamorous. But if it's feminization one wants, Doug is da man. 5 more days, need to start my Vitamin K, I almost forgot!

Melissa, all that's important is that you are happy with your FFS surgeon.  I think it's great you are such a fan of Dr O.  I'm sure that does a lot for peace of mind.  But I, for one, have needs/wants/personal situations that take me to another surgeon.  It's nothing against Dr O, just a personal decision. 

I wish you all the best and a quick recovery with your upcoming surgery.  Tell Dr O we all say hi and Merry Christmas!

Julie

Kiera, I've been a member of a forum dedicated solely to FFS for over a year.  It's pretty active.  The general consensus is those doctors who specialize in FFS are the only ones you should consider.  But, they all had their start in the practice too.

Personally I feel you need a surgeon who has the gift of not only being capable of doing the surgery but also an eye for the subtle differences between the male and female face.  It isn't just forehead and jaw work.  There's so much more.  

On Dr O's website there are silhouettes of the male and female face superimposed on one another.  It gives you a good idea of the differences from a side view.  But there's also the front and angular views that need consideration.  I see the best surgeons as being artists.  There's an up and coming surgeon near me that I'm hearing great things about.  He's often referred to as an artist.  If I ever have FFS he will be on the short list of surgeons to consider.

Julie

Quote from: Kiera on December 16, 2006, 10:49:38 AMHaving always thought that ones eyes and surrounding features are really the telltale sign and a true window into our inner soul I find it intriguingly haunting that I could actually take a feminine photo of someone who looks similar to me and ask a doctor "could I possibly ever look like that"??

Having been there Is that how indeed it actually works???

There is no simple answer to this question.  In broad strokes, the answer is yes, that is how it works.  In reality, little details will
determine the outcome.  In some cases, the male features can be removed, in some cases, the male features are only modified and
the result, in my opinion, is less than ideal.  Reducing the brow ridge is limited by the size of the sinus behind it though Dr Zukowski
has gotten some remarkable results with bone burring (I mention his result because I am most familiar with his work).  The chin is
usually more difficult though I am very happy with my result with Dr Zukowski which was achieved through bone burring alone.  I
had my photos altered prior to my FFS by Virtual FFS but to be honest, those bear very little resemblance to my final result.  I
think that FFS is, in part, a leap of faith in that you hope the end result is a beautiful you.  In reality, I was near desperate to erase
the effects of testosterone and I believe Dr Z did fabulous work towards that end.  I was very male, I am undeniably female now.
I don't think I imagined myself looking as I do.  I'm certain we all have a mental image of beauty that is simply unobtainable from
ANY surgeon.  

Dawn

Quote from: Tinkerbell on November 27, 2006, 11:51:56 PM

Quote from: melissa90299 on November 27, 2006, 10:54:27 PMIMNSHO, there are two categories of FFS surgeons. There is Dr. Ousterhout and everyone else.

I agree totally!

tinkerbell

Maybe years ago, yes, but not anymore, and some, including professionals, call him the Barbie Doll surgeon for his stereotype of the (trans)female face. If you like his work and can afford him, great, but he's not in his own class anymore, just a class of dedicated followers (no pummelling please, I'm not against him or you, just neutral).

It's an interesting thread, with as many views as people. I personally think it boils down to both personal and social acceptance, what you see and what you want the world to see. Some pass without ffs but, as noted, most don't, not without some surgery which would help. Some accept their non-feminine features and get through life fine, and some don't and want ffs.

Almost all I've heard or read their personal stories who have had ffs have expressed comfort and satisfaction with the results and felt it helped more than srs in their transistion on both levels, personal and social/public. As noted, realistically many of us won't be beautiful, so why have ffs if only to get inside the range of a women's faces?

My therapist has an interesting view of ffs. She says it can help but it's not essential if you accept yourself and if you accept the reality of yourself in the world. She says personality and temperament overcomes a lot (ok, along with voice). She's not against it either, she just wants you to understand it doesn't change many things, just your face, but she also sees it helps many accept themselves more than seeing their old self in the mirror.

My physician takes the slightly opposite side, namely suggesting ffs is helpful if it's clear you may have problems passing. She works with the whole person, but also says the first two things people note are the face and the voice, followed by the body (size, shape, etc.). If the face and voice don't work, she will suggest ffs. Her goal is to get you inside the range of women so you can get on with your life and not keep making your passing an issue.

And then I have to work on the voice. Just my thoughts.

--Susan--

Quote from: Melissa on November 24, 2006, 10:16:38 AM

Quote from: Karen on November 24, 2006, 09:41:30 AM
Is there any place I can go, either on the web or in person, where I can see what results I might possibly attain with my face and different procedures?

What would be great is to be able to submit a hi-rez technical photo of my face, and then have it evaluated and then modified to show the minimum attainable results.

Yes, see http://www.virtualffs.co.uk/

Melissa

The advantage of virtual FFS is being able to see what the potential is and having an expert opinion from someone other than the surgeon. An opinion that you can use to have an informed discussion with your surgeon.

The comments that I had back also included the potential changes from hormone treatment, which could be important for those trans people who have FFS at the start of their RLE.

As an example:

https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view;id=439 (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view;id=439) is before virtual FFS

https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view;id=457 (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view;id=457) is after virtual chin reduction, forehead work and cheek implants (they also thinned my eyebrows a little and removed some forehead lines in them too).

https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view;id=458 (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view;id=458) is after additional recommendations of lower eyelid surgery, rhinoplasty and reduction of the creases running down from the corners of my nose.

I found it best to have the three photos side by side on the same screen to see the changes.

My virtual FFS package included side profile and front profile and a detailed report.

It's a commercial service and it costs money !!! but I was impressed with the report I received and their comments on what I did not need as much as what they thought I did need ....

My comments are just an illustration on what you get from Virtual FFS. I am not looking for any comments on whether I actually need FFS or not !!!!!

Ruth

To me, facial feminization surgery is more important than SRS.  In fact, I see SRS as the final step.  A method of 'sealing the deal' so to speak.  Being socially accepted as a woman and being proud of what I see in the mirror is more important to me than what's hidden between my legs.  Genitals are, really, just tools we use for procreation.  I'm not an overtly sexual person.  The only reason I want SRS is so I won't be producing testosterone as much and I'll actually feel right for once.

But if someone asked me if I had to choose between FFS and SRS, I'd pick FFS in a heartbeat.  I'm open sexually.  I make due with whatever is at hand.

If the last month of pyschological integration has taught me anything, being a woman is about how you feel, not what's between your legs.

~ Blair

Quote from: Blair on February 25, 2007, 04:54:58 PM
The only reason I want SRS is so I won't be producing testosterone as much and I'll actually feel right for once.

An orchiectomy (testicle removal procedure) would achieve that.  Is there perhaps more?  Would you choose and orchi or go all the way with SRS.  After all, an orchi is a lot cheaper.

Melissa

Quote from: Julie Marie on November 14, 2006, 07:53:08 PM
There is a belief out there that FFS is just as important as SRS, maybe even more so. 

Just curious why it's so rarely discussed here.

Julie

I look around sometimes, and study faces carefully.  I find that the basic structural differences in faces are anything but absolute.  A personal close gg friend of mine is a true knock-out.  Perfect skin, perfect eyes, perfect cheek, nose, chin, structure, etc.  I look at her sometimes, as pretty as she is, and think 'if she were me, she would think her brow ridges were thick, and way too male looking, and her shoulders are actually a little wide'.  If I look at individual details, I see a number of things that could easily use 'perfecting'.

Now then, these are some characteristics of the prettiest friend I have.  Why then, is she so pretty? 
I think we TS girls, women, look too much at structural details of what we think is female, and not the essence of what makes one female.  I fear we are trapped in a mindset of what looks female, and not what IS female.

I'll keep trying.

Bev

QuoteThis topic can be a very divisive issue as many who can't afford the surgery convince themselves they don't need it when in reality they do. Years ago, there wasn't much trans awareness and women who presented as female fairly well "passed" without it.

Doug Ousterhout who is the pioneer in FFS and my surgeon but also almost a friend has told me  a few stories about patients who come for help. He said he is getting a lot of women who are post-op and have lived years in the role who are coming in for FFS because they no longer "pass." People nowadays are trans-aware and can easily see through the make-up. In cities where there are a lot of trans women, even "100%" passable women like me will get clocked.

The harsh reality is that most mid or late transitioners need FFS.

Strong opinions for sure, and you are welcome to have them, but here is another POV:

I live in a city with tons of trans-people of every stripe. Some post-op, some pre-op, some non-op, m2f's, f2m's, IS, she-males, etc, etc.   Now whereas the majority opinion of the women here seems to be that FFS makes them "unclockable," I and lots of women I know feel the exact opposite here. A woman that looks "too perfect" is ripe for closer examination, whereas a middle-aged woman with a few "facial quirks" doesn't get a second glance if they behave normally, and dress their age.

Plus, what we have noticed is that there are lots of women out there that are utterly convinced that we do not "read them" either, because they think they look so good. But, what you have to remember, is that just because a woman or a group of women does not confront you, or berate you when she "reads you," does not mean that she or they do not know. Many times, after a woman has "passed thru" our area, we all look at each other and go, do you think? It doesn't go much further than that usually, unless she was a jerk.

On the flip side, we have been surprised many times by women that we found out later on had transitioned. Most of the women in that category tend to be either naturally beautiful and young, or plain and even on the frumpier side. What you have to remember is that not many women without a husband or rich boyfriend have the time and/or $$$ to go and have a ton of facial surgery, and to recover from it.

At the very least, if you are a middle-aged woman or older, and you have a re-constructed face, even if you do not get "read" as trans, it will be fairly obvious to most other women that you had facial surgery, which in some quarters isn't going to win you any friends either. But, that is again your choice.

I think the last point I want to address is your comment about "needing" FFS. Who is to say who needs what? Since this FFS thing is a personal decision, than wouldn't that mean you only need it if you feel you need it for yourself? If someone else doesn't need it for themself, than I would think that would indicate that they in fact don't need it. If you meant to say that people need FFS to "pass," than I would say that they are better off not passing.

Because, IMO, if you need to work to "pass," than you do not, in fact pass. And if you do pass, than are not whatever it is you are trying to "pass" as. You are just pretending to be something that you are not, and eventually, women are going to notice this fact.
If no one ever told you, women are great at keeping our own house.

Quote from: Melissa on February 25, 2007, 09:57:34 PM

Quote from: Blair on February 25, 2007, 04:54:58 PM
The only reason I want SRS is so I won't be producing testosterone as much and I'll actually feel right for once.

An orchiectomy (testicle removal procedure) would achieve that.  Is there perhaps more?  Would you choose and orchi or go all the way with SRS.  After all, an orchi is a lot cheaper.

Melissa

Well, I would love to have SRS.  I really would.  I would love it, and money isn't an issue to me.  The only doubt I've ever had is about vaginal depth.  I'd really like to be able to experience sex as a woman, but sometimes I think it's just a silly dream.  I suppose I'll have to talk to individual surgeons when I get to that part of my journey and learn the facts.

~ Blair

Lack of funds is a common reason given here for not transitioning, not having SRS and or having FFS.  And I'm talking about those who said they would do it if they had the funds.

My situation is this.  To have SRS I have to sell my house.  If I have FFS I'll have to use more of the equity I have in my house.  When I got divorced all I had left was what was in the house.  My retirement fund was wiped out, all my savings were gone.  Thirty three years of work and all I had was the equity in my home.

And I will sell the house and I will use some of the equity to have SRS.  Retirement won't be what it could have been.  Instead of moving to a nice warm place with a comfortable retirement plan supporting me, I'll be scraping to get by.  I may have to work until I no longer am able.  And if FFS is needed to fill my emotional needs, it will create further financial strain on me.  But I'll only have it if I feel life after FFS will be better than life without it.

I know one girl who said many times how she wished she could afford to transition, could afford HRT, could afford SRS.  Then she later shows me the brand new sports car she just bought!  "Now I see why you can't afford to transition." 

It's a matter of priorities.  If you really want something, you'll make that your primary objective.

Julie

Quote from: Julie Marie on March 01, 2007, 01:13:49 PM
Lack of funds is a common reason given here for not transitioning, not having SRS and or having FFS.  And I'm talking about those who said they would do it if they had the funds.

I keep saying lack of funds is only delaying me from having SRS.  I WILL have it, but when your money is being taken away from you legally, you don't really have much choice.  I am still going to find ways of getting the money, but it will just take a bit longer for now.

Melissa

Quote from: Julie Marie on March 01, 2007, 01:13:49 PM
I know one girl who said many times how she wished she could afford to transition, could afford HRT, could afford SRS.  Then she later shows me the brand new sports car she just bought!  "Now I see why you can't afford to transition."

I'm guilty of this, although it was a few years ago, before my emotional meltdown. But even then, I *knew* I was putting myself into a financial hole, and that maybe if I *couldn't* transition, I WOULDN'T.

Yea. THAT worked  ::)

Now I DO adore the car, but I also kick myself every day for not having the money I could have saved. Laser, therapy, dental work and HRT have HURT. Bad.

Plus, the car isn't exactly STEALTHY, lol, and I'm not sure if it fit's my new and evolving life appropriately ;)

Kate

Well the flip side of the money argument is whether FFS can help you earn a living in your acquired gender. Customers and co-workers see your face, not the rest of you !!!

I know a transwoman who had FFS and then due to a change in circumstances could not afford GRS and I feel for her predicament. However, she is working in her acquired gender and within a year should be able to afford GRS.

Ruth

For me FFS is a mixed bag.  If I style my hair right (and as time goes on), I seem to have no problem passing, yet I know the potential for me to look stunning is there with FFS.  I also wouldn't have my insecurities about my male features.  People are probably thinking "what male features?"  I just have learned to hide them well.  Sometimes I can feel confident enough to go out without any makeup and I get maamed in a store and other times I am wearing makeup and I don't feel like I could pass at all.  It seems to vary.  My guess is that I will eventually have FFS, but I'm ok for now.

Melissa

This is such a great thread!
My livelihood depends on having a professional appearance. I don't have to look beautiful, but adequate, and well put together. Scaring small children and dogs won't do! I have work to do in all areas of transition, probably a lot. But I will get there. May take a while. Certain things need to be taken care of to allow me to do my job as the woman I am inside. It seems wise, at this point, to consult with some FFS surgeons, to see what they think, see what can be done, and what should be done, and when. Knowledge and expert opinion will help me plan realistically.
Blessings, Tara

PS: what kind of car, Kate?  :D

I've heard it said, "I want to be able to answer the door no makeup and messy hair and have the person say, 'Hi Ma'am'.  That's what I want FFS to do for me."

For those who can already pass FFS can truly make you beautiful.  I know it's vain but I certainly wouldn't mind being beautiful.  Still, I really have doubts about volunteering to have my face ripped apart.  And what if you don't like the results?  More surgery?

Several doctors will do adjustments if you're not happy but that means you're back in surgery and have to go through the recovery process all over.  It takes a couple of months to heal but about a year to see what you will really look like.  For me there's a lot of doubts.

Julie

Quote from: Julie Marie on March 02, 2007, 04:24:04 PM
I've heard it said, "I want to be able to answer the door no makeup and messy hair and have the person say, 'Hi Ma'am'.  That's what I want FFS to do for me."

I've actually had this happen a few times already, so this is not this that motivate me to get FFS.

Quote from: Julie Marie on March 02, 2007, 04:24:04 PM
For those who can already pass FFS can truly make you beautiful.

This is the reason why.  When you "know" that the potential is there, it becomes something you think about regularly.

Melissa

QuoteFFS - Who Needs It, Who Wants It...

Who needs it = impassable transsexuals
Who wants it = every ts or genetic girl who wants to improve their masculine features.

When I was at the salon the other day, I was sitting in a chair facing a mirror waiting for the stylist to begin cutting my hair.  My hair had just been shampooed.  The chair is situated directly under a ceiling spot light, probably so the stylist can best see what she's doing.  She combed my hair back, out of my face.  Then it became obvious.

Sitting under that light with all the hair out of my face, the light shadowed and highlighted all my facial features.  It then became painfully obvious I had a lot of male markers.

Hair can hide a lot.  When I style mine just right I can pass almost anywhere.  But sitting in that chair, with all my hair wet and combed back, it just screamed male to me.  That's when I knew I'd be battling those features forever unless I had FFS.

Who needs it?  That's for you to decide.

Who wants it?  Well, I'm certainly considering it.

Julie

Every woman deserves to be beautiful, so unless you are already, you need it.  At least, I think so.

~ Blair

Quote from: Melissa on March 02, 2007, 02:51:43 PM
For me FFS is a mixed bag.  If I style my hair right (and as time goes on), I seem to have no problem passing, yet I know the potential for me to look stunning is there with FFS.  I also wouldn't have my insecurities about my male features.  People are probably thinking "what male features?"  I just have learned to hide them well.  Sometimes I can feel confident enough to go out without any makeup and I get maamed in a store and other times I am wearing makeup and I don't feel like I could pass at all.  It seems to vary.  My guess is that I will eventually have FFS, but I'm ok for now.

Melissa

Quote from: Blair on March 25, 2007, 02:40:11 PM
Every woman deserves to be beautiful, so unless you are already, you need it.  At least, I think so.

~ Blair

Most people told me I didn't need FFS, believe me I did. BUt it's not about being beautiful, it's about having a feminine face. Some of Dr O's most succesful subjects are not beautiful but very feminine.

Melissa,
You say you have the voice down and that helps a lot, there was one avatar you posted that clocked 100% but I could frame a photo with the a camera angle and lighting pre-ffs that clocked 100% female as well. if I recall, your biggest male feature is your jaw. Most MtFs could benefit from a lip lift, in fact, an awful lot of GGs could too, lip lifts are a simple procedure that can be done in a surgeon's office and are relatively inexpensive. Just about any cosmetic surgeon can do them beware though, sometimes surgeons lift them too high and the results are unnatural and even bizarre.

Quote from: Julie Marie on March 25, 2007, 09:34:47 AM
Hair can hide a lot.  When I style mine just right I can pass almost anywhere.  But sitting in that chair, with all my hair wet and combed back, it just screamed male to me.  That's when I knew I'd be battling those features forever unless I had FFS.

It's really bizarre with me... some days I look in the mirror and just want to cry, it seems SO hopeless. The next day I'll look again, and wonder how I could ever doubt I'll pass (eventually).

Hair is funny... if I just let it hang straight down on my cheeks, it seems to "square" my jaw, and I look more masculine. If I tuck it behind my ear(s), or even just pull/tie it back, my lower face actually looks female.

There's just no single answer as to whether I'll need it or not yet. I guess being at 7 months HRT, everything is still kinda in-between.

One thing I HAVE noticed though - and it's kind of a cruel catch-22 - is that I look more female on the days that I'm happy with how I look, lol. I know, I know, but being relaxed and happy makes my face very feminine. When I feel down and gloomy, everything sorta droops into an expressionless, masculine look - which only reinforces the down mood.

Kate

Need it?  I guess that depends on your level of anxiety.  The question is out on my ability to pass without it, so I guess it just depends.

Want it?  You bet!  If I could afford it, I'd sign up today.  But there are other more important things in my life right now.  I will be having blepharoplasty later this year, depending on when the doc certifies that it is medically necessary.  That would be an ideal time to add on a few little things.

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fganjataz.com%2F01smileys%2Fimages%2Fsmileys%2FloopyBlonde-blinking.gif&hash=4545ddf8251cf9c32ae6074d56e48bc34a755857)Kristi

Hmmm....
I don't usually consider it, except maybe my hairline.  But then on days like today, when I'm at the doctors office with my wife, and the nurse asks me "ummm.....who's (uses my wife's first name), I think, why worry? 
Then, another day goes by, and there I am, staring in the mirror at the hairline.
*sigh*
Yeah, if you obsess on a thing, maybe the best thing is to change it.  So, someday, if I have the money, I'll have that changed.  Hell.....everything else changed!

Bev

i understand that ffs is a very [serious, expensive & painful] operation; it takes about a year to see the results.  who wants it? dunno, everyone who can afford it maybe?  who needs it? not too many people.  hormones are enough for most of us.