Susan's Place Transgender Resources

Save the ta-tas - Topless transgender men may affect LBGT rights
The Examiner - San Francisco
June 7, 12:31 AMWilmington Civil Rights ExaminerAngel Clark


http://www.examiner.com/x-41752-Wilmington-Civil-Rights-Examiner~y2010m6d7-Save-the-tatas--Topless-transgender-men-may-affect-LBGT-rights (http://www.examiner.com/x-41752-Wilmington-Civil-Rights-Examiner~y2010m6d7-Save-the-tatas--Topless-transgender-men-may-affect-LBGT-rights)


These men, with female breasts, chose to continue to use the  rights enjoyed by men. When staging rallies and protests in other states, the women who associate themselves with men take off their tops, obeying laws which apply to men while disobeying laws which apply to women. The men in Rehoboth Beach, although they had female sex organs, felt it was appropriate to act in accordance with society's views of men.

One wonders why these men would go through the effort of changing their appearance to that of women simply to continue to act like men.

this article confused me.. because the people were called 'transgender men' and transgender men are FTM's

To me it seems as if the author is an ignorant bigot and seems to either think that all trans people are MTF and/or that "transgender men" refers to MTFs.

Besides the obvious stupidity, the notion that women take off their tops to make a parallel with men is just...
*facepalms*

Well; I don't know the laws in the US, but here in the NL, there is no law about going out topless (for as far as I know, anyway). In the UK, you're fine as long as you wear a pair of shoes, a bowler hat and a tie, which basically makes most of the UK residents, by law, naked anyway. Nudity laws are silly; if states care so much about it, they should start by arresting all the animals. :S

Quote from: Dryad on June 14, 2010, 09:15:21 AM
Besides the obvious stupidity, the notion that women take off their tops to make a parallel with men is just...
*facepalms*

Well; I don't know the laws in the US, but here in the NL, there is no law about going out topless (for as far as I know, anyway). In the UK, you're fine as long as you wear a pair of shoes, a bowler hat and a tie, which basically makes most of the UK residents, by law, naked anyway. Nudity laws are silly; if states care so much about it, they should start by arresting all the animals. :S

topless women are not allowed in public...tgirl or not its considered indecent exposure. they should have been arrested legally speaking.

Still a stupid law.. We are bórn naked. The natural state of all animal-hood is being naked. Everyone save humans are.. Naked, and quite a lot of humans are still naked, too.

Indecent exposure..? That's a whole lot of stupidity, as well, if you ask me. Who decides what is decent? Why are genitals indecent? What's so shocking about bits that everyone else has, too?

Yes; I dress when I go outside. Of course I do; it's socially.. Enforced, nearly. As an unwritten law. But anyone making an actual punishable law of it is just being silly, really.
What's next? Arresting lions for poaching?

Ignorant. But being ignorant is no justification, legally or morally.

Cindy

Confused me too.  How can you have "both male and female sexual organs" for a start? Unless the breast is considered a sexual organ? which makes even less sense.

Either they were topless women, or they were guys without shirts.

Somewhat bizarre article????

Here in Ontario, the solution is simple.  The law was changed about 20 years ago, so it's perfectly legal for any woman (trans or not) to go topless in public.  Very few actually do.  In fact, I've seen only one, and that was at this year's Gay Pride weekend in Toronto, lol...

We need more women going topless.   >:-)  ;)  I'm all in favor of that.

honestly, i think that the "save the ta-ta's" campaign is really sexist and objectifying anyway.

/feminist

The law still sees pre-op MTFs that are STILL transitioning as men so legally they couldn't be charged etc etc. Legally they can be considered MAN-BOOBS. It is strange that the law defenders can change the rules when they see fit. Stupid sensationalism. FAIL.

I think that the fact that women can't go topless by law, period, end of statement, is just unfair.

But more than that, women couldn't go topless by social convention, they'd get seriously messed with most of the time.  Also unfair.
It's not like moobies are any less jiggly, right?  Yet men, no matter their physique, are going to show us their nerples when it's hot.

I live where it gets very, very hot.  Wearing nothing but industrial sunblock from the waist up might be really convenient.

That having been said...nobody really wants to see what's left over when a middle-aged person loses over 100 pounds.  Really you don't.  I'm not showing it off, nope, not even in a sports bra-which would be totally legal (since I'm legally female-and third gender isn't a legal option now, is it? :().  Not even mowing the yard in 100 degrees Fahrenheit(which is like 38c?)

There's enough flappy business hanging out of the tank top I do wear. :o

One of the fun things about being mtf, my wife tells me, is that you get to experience all the BS parts stuck on to being a girl for the first time as an adult.  It makes the BS sooo much more obvious, or to paraphrase her:" It's like I lost ten IQ points when I started taking estrogen and wearing a dress."

(Sorry for rambling)

Quote from: Muffin on September 12, 2010, 01:10:48 AM
The law still sees pre-op MTFs that are STILL transitioning as men so legally they couldn't be charged etc etc. Legally they can be considered MAN-BOOBS. It is strange that the law defenders can change the rules when they see fit. Stupid sensationalism. FAIL.

In Colorado, the Department of Corrections doesn't recognize sex changes.  So a transwoman could go to men's prison for showing her boobs.  But Colorado law also recognizes gender identity, so pre-op and non-op transwomen could also go to prison for showing their boobs.  Under the law, if I was arrested, I would get searched by a female officer and then be put in jail with men.  And with a sex-offense, it could be for life.  So, theoretically, a transwoman could get a life sentence in men's prison for streaking.

I'm gonna put that in my signature.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^Couldn't they just plead moobs for the sake of survival?

Hey, if Janet Jackson can do it on national TV...oh, wait, I guess technically that was a wardrobe malfunction.  Right.

I do think it's supremely unfair that men can run around without shirts but women can't.  It's always made me more than a little annoyed.  I wouldn't take advantage of it at this time even if females did have the right, but I'd like to be able to if I wanted.

And once I get top surgery done, one of the first things I'm going to do is run around outside without a shirt.  I imagine it'll feel weird after all the years of societal conditioning.

Quote from: jmaxley on September 24, 2010, 02:36:50 AM
And once I get top surgery done, one of the first things I'm going to do is run around outside without a shirt.  I imagine it'll feel weird after all the years of societal conditioning.

It's not just societal conditioning.  It's personal habit.

I remember the first time I went topless as a woman.  Used to going topless for 45 years without thinking about it, then after habitually making sure I never forgot to cover by chest; one warm spring morning, walking the dog alone in an empty park, I pulled my top up to feel the sun on my naked boobs.  It was like I had never, ever gone topless in my life.

As i read the posts a lot of people are attacking the transgender men issue more then the fact they were topless at a beach that didnt allow topless women.  If you got boobs cover them up, its a modesty thing more then anything, your only allowed to flash them in public on rare occasions like a certain party in new orleans, or nude beaches. 

I really dont like the fact they there obviously exploiting the system, maybe it was a political statement planned on purpose.  When i was first going out full time as a woman i decided on day to go to guy mode for convenience, i didnt want to spend 2 hours doing hair and makeup, my friend caught me and she told me, WE cant do that, that means YOU cant either, stop cheating.  I laughed and said she is right... from that point on I didnt do it again, and i am happy that it only takes me 15minutes to put on my makeup now ^_^.   To me these people are cheating... you cant be expected to be treated like a woman, but not follow the same laws women have to, thats BS.

Quote from: Izumi on September 24, 2010, 12:16:53 PMI really dont like the fact they there obviously exploiting the system, maybe it was a political statement planned on purpose.  When i was first going out full time as a woman i decided on day to go to guy mode for convenience, i didnt want to spend 2 hours doing hair and makeup, my friend caught me and she told me, WE cant do that, that means YOU cant either, stop cheating.  I laughed and said she is right... from that point on I didnt do it again, and i am happy that it only takes me 15minutes to put on my makeup now ^_^.   To me these people are cheating... you cant be expected to be treated like a woman, but not follow the same laws women have to, thats BS.

I suppose my viewpoint might be different because I'm androgyne, but I don't see what's wrong with not following gender expectations. There are plenty of cis women who go out without makeup or doing their hair or anything else, even if they are expected to "play by the rules". There are plenty of cis women who show their bare breasts in protest of laws, even if by doing so they're breaking the law. Just because someone is MtF doesn't mean she wants to take on a very, very narrow idea of what it means to be a woman. Being a woman isn't about society's rules, but your identity.

Quote from: Lepidoptera on September 24, 2010, 12:45:03 PM
I suppose my viewpoint might be different because I'm androgyne, but I don't see what's wrong with not following gender expectations. There are plenty of cis women who go out without makeup or doing their hair or anything else, even if they are expected to "play by the rules". There are plenty of cis women who show their bare breasts in protest of laws, even if by doing so they're breaking the law. Just because someone is MtF doesn't mean she wants to take on a very, very narrow idea of what it means to be a woman. Being a woman isn't about society's rules, but your identity.

If they wanted to make a point of it being a political statement then they wouldnt have covered up and probably went to jail.  Its one thing to not wear make up its another thing to break the law.  If you dont like the laws then go an change them, however it is against the law in that location to show breasts in public if your a woman, you cant say your a woman and not follow the LAW as a woman does.  Like i said if they were making a statement thats one thing, if they were just in it for themselves, then that hurt other TS women like myself because of the negative image it portrays about us and about what they believe being a woman means. 

Quote from: Izumi on September 24, 2010, 01:53:07 PM
... Like i said if they were making a statement thats one thing, if they were just in it for themselves, then that hurt other TS women like myself because of the negative image it portrays about us and about what they believe being a woman means.

It's so sad that the general public can and do judge the actions of just one person to be a general rule for how all people like that are. I'm sure it's not just LGBT but it's a shamefully sad not to mention lazy and short-sighted way of thinking. *screams from a roof top* "My medical condition does not define me!!!" :P

The law should be changed...it's not the most pressing law that needs changing, though.  It's a minor unfairness.
I think it ought to be legal for women to breastfeed in public, too-do you really want to nurse a immunologically-sensitive baby in a public bathroom? With cooties floating from the toilet spume?

I think we ought to include freeing the boobies with a more general gender liberation.

Quote from: Muffin on September 24, 2010, 09:29:41 PM
It's so sad that the general public can and do judge the actions of just one person to be a general rule for how all people like that are. I'm sure it's not just LGBT but it's a shamefully sad not to mention lazy and short-sighted way of thinking. *screams from a roof top* "My medical condition does not define me!!!" :P

Well i tend to look at people one at a time rather then in groups.  I find good and bad in everything and hate generalizations but most people just need something in their lives they can attack, maybe to escape or find meaning in their own sorry existence, we are different so we fit the bill, but really you dont need to be TS to have people hate you for being different, you can be almost anything, even normal and someone out there will hate you and want to hurt you because your not their type of normal.  Heh, as a species i dont think humans will make it in the long run if they keep this up.... oh well, it was a good run.

Quote from: Izumi on September 27, 2010, 12:06:42 PM
Heh, as a species i dont think humans will make it in the long run if they keep this up.... oh well, it was a good run.

I'm surprised sometimes we've lasted as long as we have.

Quote from: Hauser on June 14, 2010, 09:28:29 AM
topless women are not allowed in public...tgirl or not its considered indecent exposure. they should have been arrested legally speaking.

What about FTM's who have had chest surgery?

Quote from: Hauser on June 14, 2010, 09:28:29 AM
topless women are not allowed in public...tgirl or not its considered indecent exposure. they should have been arrested legally speaking.

i couldnt agree more with you.  We fight so hard to be accepted as women, yet these yahoos go and disrespect themselves and ALL of us.

I choose to refer to them as men to. Because that is what they are men with boobie fetishes

Anywhere a man can go topless, a woman should be able to go topless too.

Problem solved.

Quote from: jmax on September 12, 2010, 12:30:43 AM
We need more women going topless.   >:-)  ;)  I'm all in favor of that.

I agree

Yes, that writer is obviously too ignorant on the subject of transgender persons to be published by a legitimate publication or site discussing the topic. The matter does point out the inherit absurdity of such gender-based public nudity laws, though. There should be no legal difference to a woman going bare chested or a man doing so. These transgender persons are simply bringing that issue to the forefront where it should be. Of course, the next big issue that community may have to deal with is the antiquated notion of having any law that is gender-based since gender is by no means an entirely either/or concept.

Quote from: Colleen Ireland on September 10, 2010, 02:59:18 PM
Here in Ontario, the solution is simple.  The law was changed about 20 years ago, so it's perfectly legal for any woman (trans or not) to go topless in public.  Very few actually do.  In fact, I've seen only one, and that was at this year's Gay Pride weekend in Toronto, lol...

I believe that the ninth circuit court of appeals has legalized women going topless if men can.

As to the actual number of women going topless? Exactly 0 haha.

Quote from: Muffin on September 12, 2010, 01:10:48 AM
The law still sees pre-op MTFs that are STILL transitioning as men so legally they couldn't be charged etc etc. Legally they can be considered MAN-BOOBS. It is strange that the law defenders can change the rules when they see fit. Stupid sensationalism. FAIL.

Thanks muffin. You cleared it up for me. They are mtf. When confronted with legal trouble they did what any sensible person would do and argued their situation based on the letter of the law. Legally, they are still men.

The author of this article used his own terminology which made it confusing.

He seems to be incensed that the Mtf's did not use the incident as a political platform.Evidently he sees all transgender and gays as political activists and sees this inconsistency as another contradiction to offend his senses.

Quote from: Izumi on September 24, 2010, 12:16:53 PM
As i read the posts a lot of people are attacking the transgender men issue more then the fact they were topless at a beach that didnt allow topless women.  If you got boobs cover them up, its a modesty thing more then anything, your only allowed to flash them in public on rare occasions like a certain party in new orleans, or nude beaches.

And therefore we need a modesty police, a mutaween? Can't society decide for itself what is modest enough without legal intervention? And what justification is there for a discriminatory law?

Topless laws seem to be a bit of "It's bad because I say so."  Apparently women are okay as long as the nipples don't show......but nipples are fine on guys.   ::)

Is this actually an arrestable offense some places?  The public nudity laws here don't include breasts, just genitalia.  Actually, a local woman recently proved her legal right to garden topless.