Susan's Place Transgender Resources

Just as the subject line says. I'm really only looking for agnostic/atheist/nonreligious/areligious responses. But if you're religious and have a conception of spirituality that does not intersect with your religious beliefs--if that's possible?--by all means chime in.

errm...in order to explain my take on it, i have to ask a question first.

How familiar are you with Daoist philosophy?

Only a little, so explain away.

You go to nature, not to a church.

there's a passage in the Dao that (loosely..all chinese to english translations are loose) goes

"if you mold a cup, you must make a hollow: it is the emptiness within it that makes it useful"

which could be interpreted a number of ways.  but to me i see an ideal of being passive in one's sense of greater things. it is a refusal to define what is too great to be defined that shows a proper respect for it.

that's a sort of...understatement of the century way to explain it..but the essence of my non religious spirituality lies in there being no definitions or names for "..........." that is beyond human capacity.

It stems from my position of empiricism. I need hard evidence to believe something. However i cannot deny certain feelings i have. so i simply accept them.

that's it. i accept. there's nothing i can reliably place belief in. the question of belief in a specific definition of deity or even just a general idea of something greater...without the capability to empirically define it..is imo disrespectful to the potential of higher....something.

Quote from: tekla on June 12, 2010, 12:42:56 PM
You go to nature, not to a church.

This.

I think spirituality is part of your reaction to the world vs self. Spirituality is in you, a communication between your brain and your heart in effort to make things real and help to create an understanding of your life and life in general that seems as logical and understandable in relation to you, your space and your interaction with the physical world. I develop and explore spiritual feeling through nature, meditation,and occasionally emotion. It is kind of like going inside and seeing what is really there and dealing with it, for me. A lot of acid in my younger years had an effect on my spirituality. My mind is way more useful when it's empty.
Does this make any sense? No more acid just meditation, now.

Religion is buying into a program, usually with rigid parameters that one must believe in and follow. Sort of a faith based suspension of reality with some vague promise of a reward of sorts, upon termination of life.

"Spiritual, but not religious" is the designation I usually use because, although I do believe in a higher power, I'm not convinced of any particular religion's definition of that power.  Is it a God or a Goddess? Or a pantheon of Gods and Goddesses?  Is it an energy force?  Or an untapped portion of the human mind?  I don't pretend to know.  My suspicion is that it is all of those things, and yet none of them.  That it is something beyond human comprehension, or at least beyond the ability of language to describe.

People's definitions of spirituality seem to be all over the map.

Keep 'em coming...

spiritual but not religious = crazy but indecisive

Quote from: glendagladwitch on June 16, 2010, 10:05:43 PMspiritual but not religious = crazy but indecisive

:laugh:

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Post Merge: June 17, 2010, 12:21:09 AM

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Quote from: tekla on June 12, 2010, 12:42:56 PMYou go to nature, not to a church.

So instead of feeling a god calling to you, you feel a call of nature?

Dictionary to the rescue!!

spir·i·tu·al    (spĭr'ĭ-chōō-əl)   
adj.

   1.      Of, relating to, consisting of, or having the nature of spirit; not tangible or material. See Synonyms at immaterial.
   2.      Of, concerned with, or affecting the soul.
   3.      Of, from, or relating to God; deific.
   4.      Of or belonging to a church or religion; sacred.
   5.      Relating to or having the nature of spirits or a spirit; supernatural.


re·li·gion
   /rɪˈlɪdʒən/ Show Spelled[ri-lij-uhn] Show IPA
–noun
1.   a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, esp. when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.
2.   a specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons or sects: the Christian religion; the Buddhist religion.

Underlining the specific things that people "tend" to refer to when they call themselves spiritual but not religious and there you go.

"roughly"
A spiritual person has personal beliefs concerning the "non-physical" such as a soul/spirit, gods, "metaphysical energy" and etc, etc.
A religious person has a specific "manual for life" that originate withing their religion which they haven't created for themselves and observes rituals pertaining to those/that.

Most religious folk are spiritual and most spiritual folk are at least a little religious.
When people say they are spiritual but not religious they refer to not belonging to an organization, having their own manual for life though it may be inspired by a religious one, and/or not being invested in anyone else's rituals.

Quote from: Miniar on June 17, 2010, 08:24:15 AMMost religious folk are spiritual and most spiritual folk are at least a little religious.
When people say they are spiritual but not religious they refer to not belonging to an organization, having their own manual for life though it may be inspired by a religious one, and/or not being invested in anyone else's rituals.

My main reason for asking is a conversation I had quite some time ago. I was reminded of it by recent discussions here in the Atheism forum. In my town, we have a trans/intersex group that focuses on spiritual/religious stuff. Someone asked me if I was going to start going, and I said that I was in no way religious; she responded that it was a spiritual group and I didn't have to be religious to be spiritual; I said that I didn't consider myself to be spiritual, either, and that pretty much ended that conversation.

The thing is, the name of the group says nothing about religion or Christianity--just spirituality--whereas the capsule description is manifestly Christian. The capsule starts off with a statement that the group exists to help people "grow in [their] spirituality," but then it later talks about God's love and our being "one in Christ." Furthermore, the group meets at a church that is nondenominational but distinctly Christian. What am I supposed to think? I think it's a nondenominational Christian group for trans and intersex people.

I have to admit that even if it isn't, I'm not interested. But now I am trying to tease out the notion of nonreligious spirituality and get a better grasp of it.

Well, it's fairly common for a highly religious group, or even person, to call itself "spiritual" and not religious as a way to say "You don't have to go to church" (or in some way attempt to distance themselves from the negative connotations of religion), even if the group is actually quite specifically religious. Like you described.

Yup I'm SBNR, because I think most organized religion is full of bs rules and all they really care about how is good they look though I'm sure there are exeptions so no offense to anyone ^ ^

There's a facebook page on it :)
http://www.facebook.com/SBNR.org (http://www.facebook.com/SBNR.org)

Quote from: Jamie-o on June 16, 2010, 02:41:12 AM
"Spiritual, but not religious" is the designation I usually use because, although I do believe in a higher power, I'm not convinced of any particular religion's definition of that power.  Is it a God or a Goddess? Or a pantheon of Gods and Goddesses?  Is it an energy force?  Or an untapped portion of the human mind?  I don't pretend to know.  My suspicion is that it is all of those things, and yet none of them.  That it is something beyond human comprehension, or at least beyond the ability of language to describe.

This.

That being said, I find many religious gathering places/events/practices to be wonderful venues for both spirituality and culture, therefore I'm entirely open to attending such things because it tends to be both enjoyable and eye-opening. I don't participate in religious events because they make me feel closer to god(s) or to fulfill some kind of religious expectation-- I do so because it helps me to understand how other people experience their own spiritualities. Although I do occassionally go to churches/temples/etc. and participate in religious holidays/festivals, I don't really claim any given religion.

Mostly I just feel like there's something wonderful enough about the universe to be in awe of how it all works, regardless of whether it's the universe in and of itself or some deit(ies) or force(s) that created it... or any combination thereof.

I think I'm starting to get more of a feel for this...thanks for the responses so far.

I don't have much experience with churches. When I was about four, my family went to church and I went to Sunday school. I have vague memories of enjoying the activities and the stories. Then, when I was five, my mother got sick. I guess that's when we stopped going. At that age, I started feeling smug about my "beliefs." One day, another kid on the block came home from church or Sunday school and was sharing a sort of indoctrination booklet...you know, a sort of softcover book with pictures on every page and lots of true-to-life-style moral lessons about how Johnny learned to share his toys or Janey learned that God is watching over all of us.

I remember flipping through that book and thinking something like, "Yeah, right." I guess that's when I really understood what church was about. At the same time, I didn't feel any kind of pull toward religion; quite the opposite. I felt contempt for my friend and contempt for the storiettes and contempt for Sunday school...

I used to correct my parents' grammar and punctuation, too, although that started a year or two later. I suppose I was an intolerable prig.

When I was six or seven, we went to church for a few months, and my parents sat me down with my brother and asked us if we would like to continue. We both said, "No," and that was that. With the exception of a few weeks in junior high, when I tried really hard (but unsuccessfully) to believe, well, no more religion for Arch. It was the right choice for me.

When I was ten or eleven, I was riding out in the countryside, feeling as if my horse and I were one entity, and enjoying the open sky and the breeze on my face. Maybe it was a spiritual moment. Or the closest I have ever come to one.

Mmm, I would say I am spiritual but not religious.

I don't believe in any religion. They are just a human creations, I was raised catholic and it just seemed so weird to me - the ritualistic canibilism, people saying how good they were when I knew they were not, sharing herpes with a cup of wine. I did believe in the christian god untill I was about 12. I liked wearing the alter boy 'dresses', I liked the singing.

But I do feel I have a spirituality - being able to get in touch with something that is not flesh. Not that I really know, it is just a feeling. Like an orgasim that leaves you blind for a time, or watching a sunset on your own on top of a mountain, or eating something so heavenly you feel uplifted by it. I do think there is also a kind of power in faith, regardless of what it is in. It can drive you to do things you would not otherwise do.

I don't get making a distinction between spiritual and secular. Religion is just the trappings as vexing pointed out. I tell people I am a pantheist universalist Taoist animist fairy pagan (which just about sums it all up) but I don't really believe in a deity as such. Does that make me an atheist? I see no difference between spiritual and anything else, as it's basically all spiritual. Religion seems to be missing the whole point somehow.

I strive hard to follow my heart in all things. Heart, soul, spirit, whatever you want to call it. Being in touch and getting in touch with your inner self by whatever means works for you is what I think of as spiritual. I don't need religion to give me a moral compass, my moral compass works just fine without the big fat magnet of religion to throw it to hell and gone. Religious folk tend to be too obsessed with worrying about my morals. Those who are truly spiritual seem to be more concerned with worrying about their own.

Quote from: Arch on June 17, 2010, 12:20:07 AM

So instead of feeling a god calling to you, you feel a call of nature?

:laugh: nice one

in soviet russia, horse sees man about you

To me it would be more of an understanding of your part in what Rachel Carson called 'The Web of Life' that everything is connected to everyother thing and trying to understand your role in that so you a.) don't overplay your part b.) understand how your decisions, actions and inactions help or hinder everything else in the web of life. 

I like your description, Tekla. It seems the best way to think of life, the universe, and everything.

I had a teacher once who used to say (of course we thought was a total crackpot) that if anyone with two brain cells to bounce thoughts off of, sat down and really thought about the world in our place in it, the first thing they would do when they stood up was throw away their car keys and walk home.  Given the last month I think pretty much anyone with a car in their drive-way might as well just go down and pour the oil in the Gulf themselves.  (And please spare me all those 'ever expanding ass on a vinyl seat' reasons that YOU need a car.  That's the 'royal you,' not 'you Kat')

The reverse is also crackpot.  The same teacher once told me that the thing that so facinated me with the Romans was that I couldn't figure out how they managed to do all that without my personal help.  True that.  Anytime you start to think you are important, or that the world is a better place with you in it, you're just fooling yourself.  The day before you were born the sun rose in the east, set in the west, people fell in love and people fell out of love and life went on.  And on the very next day after you die, the same deal is going to go down like it has every day inbetween.  Life was fine without you, and when you're dead and gone, life is still going to be just fine.

That's why I never participate in any of those "I'm going to kill myself" "Oh don't the world is a better place with you in it" threads. How do I know that's true, I can pretty much assume its not.

Quote from: tekla on June 18, 2010, 01:07:20 PM
Given the last month I think pretty much anyone with a car in their drive-way might as well just go down and pour the oil in the Gulf themselves. 

Not long ago, I saw on the news that if you were to take all the oil spilled in the gulf so far and refine it, it would equal the amount of gas we use in the US every five minutes.

So if we did what you suggested, and emptied all of our tanks in the gulf, the result would be much much worse.

Quote from: tekla on June 12, 2010, 12:42:56 PM
You go to nature, not to a church.

That's how I feel.  Spirituality is wher your heart and mind is your guide insead of a book. 

One of my favorite explanations of this was Rumi's poem Love Dogs.

I had the pleasure of seeing this performance in person.  Coleman Barks is unbelievable. He's one of the official translators of Rumi


Love Dogs (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UF4_KZfIfVI#)

"Spirituality is the need, and religion is the junk food." - Pete Townshend

Not sure I'm perfectly in agreement with Pete, but I do often personally sense spirituality as some yearning or longing for something I can never seem to put my finger on.  And all too often, religion is junk food. ::)

Quote from: Celia on January 07, 2012, 11:57:38 PM
"Spirituality is the need, and religion 'is' the junk food." - Pete Townshend

Kia Ora Celia,

::) It's a good way to put it... I like it ;D

Metta Zenda :)

And like junk food when you need real food, it's not making you stronger, it's making you weaker.

Quote from: tekla on January 08, 2012, 12:18:16 AM
And like junk food when you need real food, it's not making you stronger, it's making you weaker fatter .

Kia Ora Tekla,

::) Just a little tweaking....

Metta Zenda :)

Fatter is generally weaker, slower, less stamina - all that bad stuff.  So sure.

OK, let me try...

Religion is to me about dogma, being dogmatic, sticking to set rules that were put down by someone else and then called... canonical if the rules are set from up the hill (Vatican). Or like religiously brushing your teeth 3 time a day as set down my mom?
If set by some other 'authority' it may be called heretical, sectarian, un-believing, etc. etc.

Spirituality to me is about AWARENESS (inner awareness) of what's out there that is not immediately accessibly, by touch, vision, smell, etc. - but a lot by some 6th sense, or intuition. It is NOT at all bound to anything like dogma or defined by canon, standard, rule, norm, principle, tenet, law, list, or catalogue.

Some things can be intuitively bad, but looking at it more 'flat' they may seem just useful.

Spirituality is related to creativity and creativeness, religion to 'secured' believes and emotional security in doing what is deemed to be 'right or good' as opposed to be 'wrong or bad' and as lid out by ... standard, rule, norm, principle, tenet, law, list, or catalogue.

OK, as I said - just a try...
Axélle

Religion is of this world.  It is programmed into us socially.  No one is born religious.  We are taught to be religious.

Spirituality is not of this world.  It's an intangible.  It's something very different for each person but also very much the same.  It can't be defined, only experienced, if one allows it.  But it is in all of us.

I used to think I was benefiting from religion, that being religious was why I felt better inside.  But I was wrong.  I used religion as a vehicle to get in touch with my spirituality.  I thought that was the only way because that is what I was taught.  Once I took a step back and looked at the whole thing, I realized religion was a social construct.  And I didn't need it to get in touch with my spirituality.

Today I get far more spiritual benefit by sitting out under the stars, letting the waves lap at my feet or taking a quiet walk through the woods, than I ever did sitting in man-made structure filled with gold and marble and images of a man tortured and crucified two thousand years ago.     

Axélle-Michélle and Julie Marie, those were both beautiful posts that ring very true to me. I'm a member of the Society of Friends as of a few years ago. I considered myself atheist for many years and now identify as Panentheist. But I would remind that labels are so limited and that's just the most apt short label I've come across for describing my beliefs. Friends don't talk to God as so many do during prayer, sometimes asking for things, or even asking for guidance. When I hear my loved ones praying who aren't Friends, it sounds almost vain, like they know all the answers already and are just going through the ritual to demonstrate devotion. We believe God speaks to all of us via the still quiet voice within so we pray silently and listen intently for guidance, sometimes for an hour or more at a time.

Mircea Eliade talks about the difference between the Sacred and the Profane.  The Profane is the material world. The Sacred is a spiritual sense of heirophany or "oneness with holy."  Spirituality would be the Sacred.  Religion would be the Profane.


http://www.bytrent.demon.co.uk/eliadesp01.html (http://www.bytrent.demon.co.uk/eliadesp01.html)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mircea_Eliade (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mircea_Eliade)

Kia Ora,

::) Spiritual=Personal Journey-----Religious =Public Transport !

::) When it comes to describing spirituality, it's like the Taoist saying  "Those who know don't say[can't put into words] and Those who say don't know!"

Metta Zenda :)

Quote from: dalebert on January 08, 2012, 11:19:43 AM
When I hear my loved ones praying who aren't Friends, it sounds almost vain, like they know all the answers already and are just going through the ritual to demonstrate devotion.

When I "was religious" I often did what I did, like go to church and pray, to demonstrate I was a good Catholic.  And if no one was watching, I kept that arrow in my quiver ready in the event anyone challenged my "good Catholic" status.  It was a show I and so many around me put on because none of us really lived the "good Christ-like life", at least not consistently.  We do have moments though.

I was in high school when the hypocrisy struck me.  I was driving past our church on Sunday while mass was in session.  I saw the father of one of my friends sitting in his car, parked outside the church, reading the newspaper.  I later asked my friend what that was all about.  He told me his dad did that every Sunday to keep the peace at home.  My friend's mom was a devout Catholic.  His dad, obviously, wasn't.  So he'd leave the house, as if he was going to church, park out front of the church, then head back home after church let out.  No worries.

I realized I wasn't the only one who felt pressured to perform.  Even grown adults were pressured into this Catholic performance.  And, to keep the peace, we all went through the motions.

Though I'm technically a Buddhist, my relationship with whatever that's supposed to be has become very, very personal. My feeling is that, in some way, religion is a collective practice but spirituality is a personal experience. This isn't meant to be a definition, it's just how I see it from a certain angle.

To me, spirituality expresses itself in the sense of being part of something bigger than I am - but the something doesn't have a personality, so it's just me knowing that everything else that's "not me" is way bigger than what I think "is me", so it's worthy of respect, and I'd rather be connected than disconnected. Whether I like it or not, I have an effect on the world I'm in, so I'd like to have a good effect. And I'd like to allow myself to be affected by the world, too (I don't always want to let that happen).

"Religion is for those who fear hell; spirituality is for those who have been there"

For me, being spiritual but not religious is about finding my own truth instead of clinging to the "truth" that others (religious leaders, etc) have supposedly found. The only reason I ever had an interest in religion was out of fear of finding out a horrible truth (such as "God exists, but he hates you," or "There is no meaning in the universe, all of it is chaos, and your life doesn't matter at all"); religion is, for the most part, an elaborate fairy tale (in which the "happily ever after" is almost always after you're dead, of course) and "god" is the easiest thing to blame and/or pray to in hopes of things magically becoming the way you want.

Once I got over that fear, I felt a lot freer being able to find my own spiritual path instead of relying on what tradition and such created. My beliefs are based on my own experiences, theories (assumptions, if you want to be technical about it), and such, and I no longer find myself searching for "the answer" to it all--I don't think anyone really has "the answer," and if anyone does, it's probably personal enough that nobody else could really understand it if they explained it.

I think it's normal for people to cling to religion until they are okay with being autonomous (if ever--obviously a lot of people are religious their entire lives), after which it becomes less about following rules/commandments/"prophecy" and more of an exploration of what the truth of things really is.

So, to sum it up, I think being spiritual but not religious means you're finding your own way, you're probably open to a lot of possibilities but you're not stuck on "this *insert any belief system* is the absolute truth, and no other religion has a scrap of truth in it" assumption. Religion is the easy way out of people's philosophical dilemmas (the whole "where did I come from, what's the meaning of this, why am I here"). Being spiritual but not religious is a little bit like you're rebelling, because you have to really figure it out yourself instead of choosing option A, B, or C (as in, "will I be Catholic, Jewish, Baptist... etc") and relying on other people (the religion's founders and/or leaders) to have it all figured out for you.

To me being spiritual means to allow my own perceptions, life experiences, open mindedness to possiblities, approaches to society, actions and reactions to people and a lot of other things define my views of intellegent design and devine creation. Religious to me means to allow someone else to define those same views through doctrines and stories from long ago. My spirituality is dynamic and means that my views can evolve according to what I experience good and/or bad.

I don't fit in any religion and never have. My view of God is that God is both male and female. I believe in reincarnation, I believe that the old writings are just man's perceptions of the world and spirtuality written in the mindset of the time they were written, back then a Bic lighter would be a "magic fire stick". I believe that religions are cyclical.

BTW, when I say God it is used as a term for whatever It may be. It could be many or one of any or both genders. I just really don't think we can comprehend the true identity of such at this point in time.

Hard question.
For me spiritual is when your 1 man having an opinion and felling, belife of the big questions in life, and religious is when you follow a certain parth of belife who already been followed by many others in one way or another.

But religious as I see it only referns to if it typical nowday,
old mytologys and so on are not mention as religion and the people follow them are more called "spiritual" as I see it. So I guess it also depend abit on how common your belife is what to label it underneath.