Susan's Place Transgender Resources

I really don't understand why there's a T in LGBT. Being transgendered has nothing to do with sexuality, and I think it makes the whole issue more confusing for everyone to understand. Whenever I tell other people about being transgendered they always question my sexuality, which is partly due to this. Although I am bisexual it's got nothing to do with me being transgendered.

The lesbian, gay and bisexual parts are all connected, and to me, the transgendered part is unrelated.

I think it is because we face many of the same issues that the LGB community faces.  Like great strength in numbers.

Many think ours is a life style choice, similar to the way they think being gay is a life style choice.  But they are only half right.  It is a life choice.  To choice life rather than death.

Like Janet said we have the same fight.

Problem with the LGBT is that the LG part is often ready to sacrifice their BT members interests in favor of their own.

Many gay people are harder and more bigoted to us than the strait world.

Our situation is not a sexual orientation. We suffer from a simple birth defect that is treatable.

Based on these things I personaly think we should disassociate ourselves from the GLB movement like it is the plague.

Oh and I am bisexual and have a lesbian mom and I entirely suport the gay cause but I do not think we should be a single organisation.

There's a fair bit of overlap between glb & t, 'specially when you look at "transgender" as an umbrella term.
We face many of the same abusive treatments and discrimination.
Strength in numbers.

Quote from: cynthialee on June 19, 2010, 09:30:21 AM
Problem with the LGBT is that the LG part is often ready to sacrifice their BT members interests in favor of their own.

Many gay people are harder and more bigoted to us than the strait world.

Our situation is not a sexual orientation. We suffer from a simple birth defect that is treatable.

Based on these things I personaly think we should disassociate ourselves from the GLB movement like it is the plague.

Oh and I am bisexual and have a lesbian mom and I entirely suport the gay cause but I do not think we should be a single organisation.

Sweet Jesus!  Someone who actually shares the same belief as me!

Quote from: cynthialee on June 19, 2010, 09:30:21 AM
Problem with the LGBT is that the LG part is often ready to sacrifice their BT members interests in favor of their own.

I saw this for myself when I went to a few meetings of our local supposed GLBT group. Many times during discussions about ENDA I heard this over and over: "the G and L need their rights and the T can wait". (notice how they left out the B altogether?). Needless to say I was completely disgusted by this and I stopped attending the meetings. It just shows that people are only concerned about their own interests and couldn't care less about other people.

The gay rights movement and the feminists had a lot in common. Both, essentially, demanded to be treated as equal before the law and society, while continuing to express themselves as they chose.

That argument was just so good, that it was conceeded. Discrimination continues of course, but it is a mark of how it is viewed that generally, those that discriminate, seek to cover it up or find specious arguments.

While most women, having won their battle, sought to return to their lives, a few looked for more battles. The phrase, All Men are Rapists was a more extreme example of the depths this rump sank to.

For the gay activists, a few toyed with a notion, in the late 70s, that the age of consent for gay people should be abolished. Quick explaination. Here in the UK the age of consent was intially put at 21, then 18, while the age for hetrosexual people was 16. The activists argued that since there is no corelation between gay and child molesters, (absolutely true of course), then there is no argument for imposing any age restrictions on gay relationships.

The flaws in this argument are obvious but it was made quite openly and supported by a number of accademics at the time. We can only be grateful that the press didn't take it up before it was pushed into the rubbish bin.

But the activists continue with their notion of 'coming out', as if this is some sort of social necesity, a mark, not just of self respect, but of distinction.

I and I know a lot of gay people take issue with this. My sexuality is no-one's business other than who I choose to share it with. I am not ashamed of who or what I am. (At least now). But as far as I am concerned, all society needs to know about me is that I am a respectiable citizen who contributes to society.

It is no-one's busness who I sleep with. I don't happen to sleep with anyone. My wife and I have for over 20 years slept separately through mutual choice. Again, that is no-one's business other than those I choose to tell.

The bisexual community presents a specific problem because, by implication, its sexual interest, and therefore activity, is with both sexes and therefore with multipul partners. Another, completely separate, can of worms really.

The transgendered community presents further problems for the gay activists. Firstly, because within our community, there is a broad range of needs.

Some actively seek to change their gender and live, hetrosexually in that gender.

On the other extreme, some simply seek to express themselves in their opposite gender.

In between, is a wide range of other needs. There is a significant cross over with bisexuality. And then there are those, like me, who would dearly love to change but lack the opportunities or the courage.

For us, we seek the right to express ourselves within the context of society. Few of us, I believe, really want to stand out as beligerant 'Trans'.

Now the issue of self expression deserves to be looked at more closely. It may seem like a non-argument to many, like democracy, liberty, comfort. But in reality, it is a political objective.

Social order and conformaty is completely natural to many. Companies frequently demand uniforms for their employees, or at least, a standard of dress. Many people find the sight of a beard to be unsightly, even unplesent. Margaret Thatcher was known for this for example.

This is what we are really faced with. Those that rant about bathrooms are just a silly bunch of rabble rowsers appealing to the rednecks or their non-American equivelent.

Self expression is about individuality. It is about individual freedom. It is about each of us, transgendered or otherwise, having a natural opportunity to participate and contribute to society. More, or most importantly, it is the notion that contributing to society is a bigger imperitive than conformaty. Social exclusion is a bigger threat to social order than crime or drug abuse.

The opponents of individuality of course, seek to enjoy and defend the freedoms they enjoy. They see these as natural and the achievement of these as a fulfilment.

Those of us who demand Individuality, see the achievement of those freedoms so far acheived as part of an incomplete process.

For those gay activists who think failure to come out is a sign of inferiority or cowardice, such complicated notions are possibly too difficult to manage. In any case, they have achieved their goal. Now they pat us on the head and expect us to be grateful they are providing a small corner where we can get on with whatever, as long as we don't make a fuss. (And disturb the 'Adults').

But more importantly. many of these gay activists, are not really in favour of establishing a new front of individual liberty.

We can perhaps, compare our own situation with the 19th century Americans, left out in the cold while a few declared that 'We hold these truths to be self evident, that all White Anglo Saxon Males are created equal.'.

QuoteWhenever I tell other people about being transgendered they always question my sexuality, which is partly due to this.

If it's any consolation, they would be questioning your sexuality anyway.

I consider my personal situation a medical condition. It's not a lifestyle for me, it's just something I need treatment for. Anyone who is human can relate to that. Sometimes I question the effectiveness of our relationship with the LGBT folks. We have a common enemy, and many of the same political aspirations, but that's the extent of it.

I suppose we're stronger together than broken apart at the moment so it's a compromise worth the relationship for now.

EDIT: As for the LG discrepancies with Transfolks, one thing I learned in life is that when some folks say "We want equality for ALL", what they are really saying is "I want equality for ME." In otherwords, they only care that they get their rights themselves. They care not the idea that we should all have freedom, liberty, and a chance at happiness without religious persecution [principles our country was founded on]. The blacks voted for proposition 8 in droves, the gays discriminate against their trans brothers and sisters, and the Ts also aren't going to give a damn about the next poor fool who needs their rights.

Folks are just hideous like that, especially in this country. When I realized that, I was depressed for days.

Quote from: cynthialee on June 19, 2010, 09:30:21 AM
Problem with the LGBT is that the LG part is often ready to sacrifice their BT members interests in favor of their own.

Many gay people are harder and more bigoted to us than the strait world.

Our situation is not a sexual orientation. We suffer from a simple birth defect that is treatable.

Based on these things I personaly think we should disassociate ourselves from the GLB movement like it is the plague.

Oh and I am bisexual and have a lesbian mom and I entirely suport the gay cause but I do not think we should be a single organisation.

I've noticed this myself. Strength in numbers, but the LGBT is clearly divided. How can we expect to get places if we're fighting amongst ourselves at times?

Granted there are LGBT organizations that are accepting to all involved, but it's unnerving to me that I can't even feel 100% safe in a community that I supposedly belong to.

Their fight is our fight because no matter who we sleep with or how we identify, somebody always thinks we're gay. Witness the inconsistent patchwork of laws across the country - we can marry cis people heterosexually in some states, cis people homosexually in others, and whether or not we can marry our chosen trans partner depends in most states on how far along each of us is in transition, except in states that don't recognize gender market changes at all, where we can only marry opposite-sex trans partners. Also look at how the bigots treat us - Brandon Teena's rapists/murderers called him "->-bleeped-<-got" as they brutalized him, and he was straight, and this was *long* before "LGBT" was in the lexicon of country boys in Nebraska.

Our fight is their fight because so much of homophobia is rooted in issues of gender rather than sex. Remember that young trans kids are indistinguishable from young gay kids (who in fact make up the majority of GID diagnoses in children), and most gay-bashing is based on perceived gender nonconformity.

We stick together because of that and also because of our history - at Compton on the West Coast and Stonewall on the East, LGB and T people rose up together to throw off the shackles of oppression and demand to exercise our rights to freedom of speech (including gender expression) and association. It's Pride month - it's a good time to read up on the history.

(I use "we" above to mean trans folk and "they" to mean LGB, even though I identify as both G and T, because of the context of this forum.)

There will always be sexists, racists, homophobes, and other etc. These kinds of battles just aren't things that can be won. That isn't to say that you shouldn't fight. Just don't lose perspective along the way. 

Quote from: ƃuıxǝʌ on June 20, 2010, 05:21:21 AM
Because women haven't won.
We're winning, but there is still plenty of inequality going on.
If you think women have 'won'...well, I'd best not say what I think of you in this setting.

Your point is well made and genuine.

But as I also said:

QuoteDiscrimination continues of course, but it is a mark of how it is viewed that generally, those that discriminate, seek to cover it up or find specious arguments.

That the irrelevant discrimination that continues against people is being justifed at all, demonstrates that the tide has turned. That battle is won. All that is left is mopping up the stupid and the ignorant.

But the discrimination against self expression continues. It continues because the previous battles were fought on a piece meal basis. One issue at a time.

There are specific laws against discriminating against people because of the colour of their skin. Because of their gender, because of their sexual orientation. All perfectly justfied in themselves.

But those battles were part of a war against discrimination based upon irrelevances.

Society is made up of each of us. Each of us has an exactly equal right to be here.

Society needs each individual to contribute to the common good.

But society continues to exclude people based upon irrelevances, such as our appearance and self expression.

That is counter to the good of society.

While we continue to view our situation as Transgendered people against society, even if we manage to win, we will have done society no service at all. Because discrimination based upon irrelevance will continue.

Our community is sufficiently broad, sufficiently varied that we cannot afford to concentrate upon specifics.

It isn't about the right of a man to wear a dress, or a woman to look male. It is about social exclusion.

We, decent, intelegent, honest people are being prevented from contribution, from working, from living and earning because of something that is entirely irrelevant to our decency, our honesty or our intelegence.

The best way I can describe the comparison of feminism and the LGBT movement is pretty much that many LG(b) folks that are cis and fit somewhere in the "acceptable gay" category/mainstream "LGBT" movement are similar to the Bourgeoisie while some of the B and a lot of the T are closer to the working class...if we're talking first wave.

Ending suffrage=gay marriage
Allowing women to not lose jobs due to pregnancy= gender inclusive ENDA

I, like many people, tend to just ignore the 'T' in LGBT. whenever the phrase LGBT is used, it really only menas LG (and to a lesser extent B), and nothing to do with T.

But why is there one? It's simple, because it's a cross gender behaviour, as is homosexuality (it's behavior that defies expectations for your gender). And the whole lot has been lumped together.

QuoteThe bisexual community presents a specific problem because, by implication, its sexual interest, and therefore activity, is with both sexes and therefore with multipul partners. Another, completely separate, can of worms really.

And those ->-bleeped-<-gots are just a hop skip and a jump away from f***ing farm animals.

Monogamy has nothing to do with sexual orientation. And considering how many straight people cheat, it's just downright offensive to use that as an argument. And, you know, straight people have multiple partners anyway. More people would talk about it if society weren't so prudish. Personally, I am only interested in monogamous relationships for myself. And if I'm not in a relationship, who cares how many people I'm f***ing?


Besides, gay rights = bi rights. As the thread has already said, if you're queer, you're just gay anyway, so where it matters, all of us are ultimately the same in the eyes of the ignorant anyway. Bis get screwed by everyone socially because neither sexuality trusts them, and while they can reap the benefits of being apparently 'straight', blowing their cover can be even worse than someone who was openly gay and would never get into the positions that someone bi does. Plus, a lot of people just can't understand someone being bi.

When I first whispered about transitioning at work, my boss could sort of understand that. But she couldn't understand me liking both. Then when I transitioned, most people just assumed I liked guys. Most of the people who I've mentioned to that I have a girlfriend now physically stop, literally ask "How does that work?" and I give them a graphic explanation of transsexual sex!

I can understand the "strength in numbers", but I don't think it really makes sense for LGBT to be together. The LG have problems with the BT because they don't "fit". The problem with strictly the LGB and T being together is that transgender has nothing to do with sexuality, whereas LGB does; it's what they have in common. They just lumped us all together because they deal with the same "general" topic.

Quote from: Amy on June 19, 2010, 07:52:47 AM
I really don't understand why there's a T in LGBT. Being transgendered has nothing to do with sexuality, and I think it makes the whole issue more confusing for everyone to understand. Whenever I tell other people about being transgendered they always question my sexuality, which is partly due to this. Although I am bisexual it's got nothing to do with me being transgendered.

The lesbian, gay and bisexual parts are all connected, and to me, the transgendered part is unrelated.

The T is the tie that binds.  Not that many want to admit it.  Transgender is about crossing socially acceptable gender lines.  An effeminate gay man has crossed that line as has a butch lesbian. 

An awful lot of lesbians I know and see present so male that it's jaw dropping to hear them dis trans people.  Same with effeminate gays.  Take a look in the mirror!  Gays love drag but drag performers aren't considered trans?  And how do mainstreamers identify gays or lesbians?  By their cross gendered presentation.  It makes you scratch your head and wonder how LGs can miss something so obvious.

I know I'm repeating myself but once the negative stigma eases, the LG community will wake up and see an awful lot of them are trans.  And then they will drop the resistance to full inclusion.

Quote from: Autumn on June 21, 2010, 02:42:29 AM
And those ->-bleeped-<-gots are just a hop skip and a jump away from f***ing farm animals.

Monogamy has nothing to do with sexual orientation.

I do apologise. My wording was very clumsey.

I was referring to perceptions.

It isn't my place to say what an entire group do or don't, think or don't.

I appreciate that many people feel a need to identify themselves, to be able to say who they are and put their stake into the ground, so to speak.

I'm concerned about the fragmentation that may result.

Our comminality is our approach to our self expressions of our own gender identity. But within that, we each have so many different approaches.

I, for example, accept that I am gay, though I would wish to be female. So, would I still be gay? I don't, openly dress feminine because of the social problems which I lack the courage to face. I am married to a woman for whom I would willingly give up anything. So, am I bisexual?

I suggesting that the radical, confrontational approach of the gay community (we're here, we're queer...) and the feminists (equal rights, equal pay...) is not just unsuited to us, it is counter productive.

I believe that we can do better with argument. That our appearance is irrelevant.

We are decent, honest and want to contribute to society. It is in societies interests to judge all of us on what we contribute, on our characters.

I appreciate and fully acknowledge the similarities to Martin Luther King, when he said, judged, not by the color of their skin but by the content of their characters. I go further and say this is my source. I go further and say that my greatest honour is to have been alive at the same time as three of the most incredable people in history.

But the principal is a good one. It is a right one. It is the way froward, into society. Because it will make each of us part of society, not some freaks, with special rights.

One thing that seems to slip minds here is that the GLBT movement isn't just one thing. That is to say, it's not the same "here" as it is "there".

The Icelandic GLBT movement doesn't really divide itself so much. It's more concerned with "all inclusive human rights" than "gay rights".

(I'm wording myself poorly today, tired and my head hurts)

Quote from: Miniar on June 21, 2010, 08:57:23 AMThe Icelandic GLBT movement doesn't really divide itself so much. It's more concerned with "all inclusive human rights" than "gay rights".

Well, here in the US, we slice and dice everything into little bits. Then so-called leaders try to gather up the pieces and unite them so as to advance their own personal agenda.  It's the age old tactic of divide and conquer.

Try to push a simple all inclusive human rights movement forward and it's just a matter of time before some voice from the distance begins fear mongering tactics so our morals won't be eroded, our children won't be harmed or our religious beliefs won't be challenged.  And sure enough the sheep will follow.

Majority rules.  Might makes right.  That's how we do it here.

Was saddened to find my local LGBT society didn't even cater for the -T.

It's almost like a way of keeping all the "weird" people in one group, even if that label is used by those in it themselves.

The Icelandic GLBT movement doesn't really divide itself so much. It's more concerned with "all inclusive human rights" than "gay rights".

Well, here in the US, we slice and dice everything into little bits.

Of course the total population of Iceland is a solid 100,000+ people LESS than the semi-rural/mostly agricultural COUNTY I live in in California, or, about 1% of the population of the United States as a whole.  That might make a bit of a difference.

Iceland = 317K
Sonoma County = 466K
US = 307 million

Quote from: tekla on June 23, 2010, 04:32:08 PM
The Icelandic GLBT movement doesn't really divide itself so much. It's more concerned with "all inclusive human rights" than "gay rights".

Well, here in the US, we slice and dice everything into little bits.

Of course the total population of Iceland is a solid 100,000+ people LESS than the semi-rural/mostly agricultural COUNTY I live in in California, or, about 1% of the population of the United States as a whole.  That might make a bit of a difference.

Iceland = 317K
Sonoma County = 466K
US = 307 million

Canada 33 000 000

I am definitely in the B/T community, and although I fully support the G/Ls, I can't personally identify with them. 

Quote from: DeniseK on June 23, 2010, 05:58:06 PM
I am definitely in the B/T community, and although I fully support the G/Ls, I can't personally identify with them.

I'm only in the T and it makes it very noticeable how the vast majority of references to LGBT have no real relevance to me because of it.

LGBT really just means LGB.

I think the reason they are allied is because one is often perceived as the other by the ignorant masses. For example, many people think that trans people are just "ultra femme" gay men or "ultra butch" lesbians.

I appreciate the inclusiveness of LGBT(&Q). In LA where I am, "The Center" has programing for all of the letters  That has been very important to me in my journey as I try to learn/experience/experiment to find out who I am from within. I have participated in Gay Men's events and groups and in Transgender events and groups. It has been helpful. For me, the boundaries are not so clear. Am I a feminine bi man? A MTF transsexual with bi leanings? Am I attracted to women or do I envy them? And so on. and on.

So, I guess, to me although some gays are uncomfortable with my femininity at the center, for the most part I have been supported and respected; and I see connections in the LGBTQ grouping as well as differences.

Kendall

I saw a gay guy make this comment about a little transgirl:
I think people get this mixed up, she is a he. Im not being disrespectful. Im gay and in the gay community 'she' would be a 'he'
Until he gets his penis surgically removed he will be a boy. Im gay so dont think for a second im homophobic

It made me so mad. Its like he was saying hes entitled to say shes a he because hes gay
Gay people can be just as clueless as straight people if not more. They can be like "get those freaks out of our support system"

Actually, the reason it's there is because people like me get out and make it part of it.  The reason it will not get out of there is that the people who really don't like it are not going to do much about it other than bitch on the internet.  I win.

I wish T would just be by itself cause I'm a transgender for a reason. I would prefer to be considered in the heterosexual catergory but that is my opinion because I'm straight. Anyways, I don't see much LG supporting us so why should we be listed among them.

Quote from: accord03 on June 24, 2010, 05:40:51 AM
I wish T would just be by itself cause I'm a transgender for a reason. I would prefer to be considered in the heterosexual catergory but that is my opinion because I'm straight. Anyways, I don't see much LG supporting us so why should we be listed among them.

Your trans because you want to be straight?

I'm trans because I'm a guy (straight aswell) so I don't be linked to homosexuals. I've already had enough trying to transition and people thinking trans are homosexuals who are just trying to fit into society I don't want things linking to homosexuals cause it's like validating their point.

Ok, it just sounded like you were only transitioning to been seen as straight.

QuoteI saw a gay guy make this comment about a little transgirl:
I think people get this mixed up, she is a he. Im not being disrespectful. Im gay and in the gay community 'she' would be a 'he'
Until he gets his penis surgically removed he will be a boy. Im gay so dont think for a second im homophobic

It made me so mad. Its like he was saying hes entitled to say shes a he because hes gay
Gay people can be just as clueless as straight people if not more. They can be like "get those freaks out of our support system"

I know a gay gentlemen that I've overheard talking about trans people as "trying to hard" to act like their identified gender. On the other hand, there is a GG we all know who constantly wears pink, has super girly and pink items in her hair, has a super high pitched voice, is very femininely animated when she talks and expresses herself -- she's like a cartoon character of femaleness -- and nobody thinks twice about it. It's viewed as a cute and accepted part of her personality because she's cis. If she were trans, people would judge.

I've often wondered if gay rights are where black rights were 30 years ago and trans rights are where gay rights were 30 years ago. The gay community overall has done a lot to help our movement, and we've been tied since Stonewall, but sometimes it feels like we really are the red-headed stepchild.

Quote from: Amy on June 19, 2010, 07:52:47 AM
I really don't understand why there's a T in LGBT. Being transgendered has nothing to do with sexuality, and I think it makes the whole issue more confusing for everyone to understand. Whenever I tell other people about being transgendered they always question my sexuality, which is partly due to this. Although I am bisexual it's got nothing to do with me being transgendered.

The lesbian, gay and bisexual parts are all connected, and to me, the transgendered part is unrelated.

we are so few in number and power...i don't believe there is an easy answer...but we do need all the friends we can get, and our issues are similar in many cases...

the downside is that you are right in that a T persons situation is totally and completely different from a persons sexuality...of course, some of us have sexuality issues as we go through life as well...hehe

In social and cultural terms there are a lot of differences between gay and lesbian people.  They are also different from bi people.  Trans people are in a different category because so many of us have more than one of those letters.  We are T&L or T&G or T&Bi or T & Straight. 

We have many more things in common than we have differences, however.  A very large part of the trans community is lesbian, gay or bi.  Large numbers of gay lesbian and bisexual identified people also violate gender norms and stereotypes.  Cissexual butch lesbians and femme gay men all get discriminated against for the same reasons that transgender, transsexual and intersex people are discriminated against.  The similarities between the various sections of the community outweigh and outnumber the differences.  The lines of demarcation are so blurred as to be irrelevant. 

Lesbians had to fight for inclusion back in the '70's.  Bisexual people had to fight for inclusion after that and trans people are still fighting for inclusion.  That said, these divisions only have meaning within our community and the educated portion of the general public.  For all too many people, trans men and women are just very very very gay and because of that, as Jenny Boylan once said, we are all together in this fight because "we get beat up by the same people."

In other words, while there are cultural and social differences, we also have a lot of commonalities and, for sure, politically we are all in the same boat.  Focus on the Family and their ilk could care less about the internal divisions within our community unless it's to use them against us (witness the effort against ENDA that concentrated on trans people and ignore GLB people).  Most people don't even know about them, or care to fo that matter.

The reasons behind our political oppression are all too similar as to justify emphasizing the differences between the various groups within our community.  We need also to acknowledge the fact that self-limiting attitudes play right into the hands of our political opponents who love nothing more than to see fractures in a political front that needs to be unified against their hateful animosity.  There's a T in LGBT because the reality is that you can't honestly separate them.

I'm not too sure about that Emelye. I HATE when people use the term 'LGBT.' Growing up, every always assumed I was 'gay' and called me that, and it really sucked.

Yes we have some similarities, but everyone has similarities with between each other. Almost every group you can think of, whether it be religious, racial, ethnicity, etc, have been politically oppressed at some time. Should we just lump all these groups together?

Sure we violate gender norms, like many GL's do, but everyone has both masculine and feminine traits, and everyone does it for different reasons.

GL's don't even like us most of the time, so why should we turn to them?

This GLBT business REALLY needs to stop.

The T in GLBT = Transgender
Not Transsexual.
Transsexual are a "sub set" of Transgender.

As much as some of us would like to, we cannot separate the T from the GLB.  Not that it was very possible before but by now, I think it's impossible and I think that's a good thing.  We will always have divisions and sometimes they will cause conflict.  We are a much stronger community, however, especially in political terms, when we stick together.

Yes, there are GLB transphobes out there just as there are trans homophobes.  Separating the community won't ever change that, however, unless it's to make it more prevalent.  By being involved and showing the haters - hetero or homo - that we are decent human beings who have rights as well as they and are able and willing to contribute to the common cause, will go a long way to make sure the dinosaurs die out and that new 'phobes won't be "born."

Because no sandwich is complete without tomato?

I'm with Emelye, and I hope I'm not re-treading too much by adding my own two-penneth.

"LGBT" works for me because there is such a frighteningly small "T" presence where I live. There are many reasons why a transgender individual would want to stay away from such societies, but I decided early on that I would need to seek out similarly-affected people. The only place I could go was a university group, with all of 4 transgender people, including me. We were united because we've all had to deal with sexuality at some point. Whether we realised we were actually gay or lesbian ourselves, or we had ruled homosexuality out and were transitioning as straight people, there was something of relevance to talk about in an LGBT group.

The four groups aren't bound, though - just as gay guys will have little to talk to lesbian women about, the trans attendees may form their own discussions too. It's just that the likelihood is an LGB group will be accepting of trans people, and it's a darn sight better than trying to arrange a very small, trans-only society at a university.

We may be stronger in numbers when we get together, but when we stand with GLB's there is never enough of a distinction b/w the GLBs and the T, so the general public know that T's exist, but assume they are 'gay' too.

Chrissi

Quote from: Icephoenyx on June 27, 2010, 03:51:32 PM
We may be stronger in numbers when we get together, but when we stand with GLB's there is never enough of a distinction b/w the GLBs and the T, so the general public know that T's exist, but assume they are 'gay' too.

That's not necessarily a bad thing, and is true for many. ;)

I think the point that "we get beaten up by the same people" stands true there. Whether singled out as trans or as LGBT.. we're sadly at risk of some pretty phobic abuse. Many people are now far more accepting of homosexual people than transsexuals.. so hopefully that'll help?

To be honest, I'm lost in this debate. :P I guess that in the end, people shouldn't feel obliged to join LGBT if they're not homo- or bisexual. LGBT groups do not seem to 'steal' resources from trans-specific groups in my limited experience, so I believe they're doing more good than harm.

I disagree that T should be part of LGB.  I dont know if its the same for other TS out their but i have always known and still tried to live a normal life in terms of the sex my family believed me to be, however in the long run i could not and transitioned.  LGB might be genetically imprinted, but doesnt effect your outward life, however being TS does.  Notice i said TS not TG, which i also believe should be separate from TG.

As more research is being done it points to TS being caused by genetics or birth defect.  This means we really have no choice in how we are, its like being born with a defect like blindness, you have to overcome it to move forward.  A lot of people believe just because you pick when you transition that being T is a choice like LGB, this is not the case.  Just because you have cancer and choose not to treat it doesnt mean it wont kill you eventually.   I was born TS, i will overcome it through therapy, drugs, surgery, and eventually live a normal life.  As more research is done we see being TS is nothing you can choose to be.  Although, just like in the LGB community their are some posers.

So with the following in mind:
  TS linked to genetics
  TS not a choice
  TS requiring extensive therapy both drug and psych.
  TS government having a legal system in place to change birth sex
  TS tax code in the US acknowledging that TS medical expenses are required and therefore deductible

How can we say that LGB is anywhere near the same as T? If your gay your still a gay man, if your lesbian your still a lesbian woman.... you are still who you always are in the outside world no matter what, however, if your TS, you have to put on an act to survive.  I believe because T is a part of LGB that is why we are not allowed to marry or any other privileges given to normal people and intersex.

sorry for the rant.

Good points all, Izumi, but I still believe that many of the struggles faced by LGB people have parallels in T life too. Fundamental to all is the pressure to be ourselves, and both camps benefit from counselling and support in that regard even if only the T folks require medical help. The transgender struggle is one of outward appearance as you say, but as I've reflected with gay friends of mine, there is still a social weight placed on pronouns in their lives too. There's the pressure behind assuming that you're in a male/female couple, and that your partner will not end up being who your parents might have imagined.

.. but that's a pretty weak point for me to make. ;P

Quote from: Izumi on July 07, 2010, 11:26:02 AM
  TS linked to genetics
  TS not a choice
  TS requiring extensive therapy both drug and psych.
  TS government having a legal system in place to change birth sex

These four all seem to apply to LGB folks, though. Some do require therapy, although the cultural acceptance of homo- and bisexual people does presumably mean there are now fewer risks to mental health, such as from having to hide your true feelings. It's easier to be a gay person now, and LGBT pride has helped with that. As for governments and legalities.. civil partnerships and marriage, anyone? :)

You bring up some interesting points but i still disagree, i think the fact that T issues are bundled in with LGB issues is why a lot of legislation doesnt go through.  Legalizing something for T means legalizing it for all, and also not means not for all, its a double edged sword so to speak.  Imagine if T was a separate entity in itself, and we want rights for T only, the argument could easily be won in court and here is why:

Current law states that the federal definition of marriage is between a man and a woman.  Well, then the T community would put a challenge on the term man and woman.  There is no definition of man or woman other genetics, but it can be disputed easily if you throw intersex into the ring.  For example, a XXY woman can marry then why not XY Transwoman?  They both have a Y chromosome dont they?  Also an XXY woman can marry a woman or man depending on what their parents put on their birth certificate, thereby nullifying genetics as form of sexual identification.  If you combine that with all the other problems and ambiguities caused in conception and birth of children you come to the conclusion that sex is actually what you legally describe yourself to be federal and state.  Since TS legally change their sex the marriage law forbidding gay marriage should not apply, i mean why should it when the federal and state governments sign off on the change to their records? 

So a court case stating TS should be allowed to legally marry the opposite sex comes to any court on its own, will most likely pass, but because its bundled with LGB issues, legalizing it means legalizing same sex marriage which gets pressure from the public religious groups to deny it.  So by default T gets taken down even though our circumstances are different.  Not to mention the fact that many LG part of LGBT dont like T for one reason or another.   

It really has more do to with the notion that all of those groups had a common community in being gender transgressors in some way.

Quote from: ƃuıxǝʌ on July 07, 2010, 03:46:09 PM
There has only been one case of this. It's hardly setting a worldwide precedent.

Just because it isnt public doesnt mean it doesnt exist, with the complexities of birth the way it is, children are born "different" everyday, some GG women are born with a penis and are not XXY but may suffer from birth defects, some have no vagina at all, some boys suffer the same way.  My point is that perceptive sex when born and actual sex is different and a procedure should be in place to say, Yes i figured it out, officially I am this or that, and everyone treat me as such.  I think the current procedure that TS people have to go through is good enough,  therapy, HRT, 1 yr full time life, and SRS. 

No one can ask the baby what it is, its an assumption based on facts presented to the parents, its possible that they are wrong, and in a lot of places they are, for example boys born with certain conditions are announced and treated like girls until puberty when they finally realize what they are.  Its not fair imo that what is decided without your consent has such lasting impact on your life. 

Not XX and not XY   one in 1,666 births
Klinefelter (XXY)   one in 1,000 births
Androgen insensitivity syndrome   one in 13,000 births
Partial androgen insensitivity syndrome   one in 130,000 births
Classical congenital adrenal hyperplasia   one in 13,000 births
Late onset adrenal hyperplasia   one in 66 individuals
Vaginal agenesis   one in 6,000 births
Ovotestes   one in 83,000 births
Idiopathic (no discernable medical cause)   one in 110,000 births
Iatrogenic (caused by medical treatment, for instance progestin administered to pregnant mother)   no estimate
5 alpha reductase deficiency   no estimate
Mixed gonadal dysgenesis   no estimate
Complete gonadal dysgenesis   one in 150,000 births
Hypospadias (urethral opening in perineum or along penile shaft)   one in 2,000 births
Hypospadias (urethral opening between corona and tip of glans penis)   one in 770 births
Total number of people whose bodies differ from standard male or female   one in 100 births
Total number of people receiving surgery to "normalize" genital appearance   one or two in 1,000 births

As you can see, it happens even though its not public.   Their is a lot of people  "different" out there, TS imo is more in line with intersex then it is with LGB. 

My point is with layers and layers of overwhelming facts, if TS detached from being associated with LGB, then we would probably already have the structure in place to give us 100% the rights of the gender we truly are, instead of feeling the political backlash dealing with gay/lesbian marriage and civil unions.

Quote from: Izumi on July 07, 2010, 12:49:07 PM
Current law states that the federal definition of marriage is between a man and a woman.  Well, then the T community would put a challenge on the term man and woman.  There is no definition of man or woman other genetics, but it can be disputed easily if you throw intersex into the ring. 

Actually the laws of virtually every place I have ever seen define it by genitals, not chromosomes.

Also any chromosome arrangement with the presence of a Y is generally considered to be male.

Also the laws against gay marriage in fact generally do not apply once a legal change of sex has been recorded (assuming it's between a legal female and male).

I too feel that the T belongs in the group, and to exclude them is wrong and somewhat ignorant. Anyone who lives outside the accepted gender norms, whether they be gay, lesbian, bisexual, transsexual, androgynous, drag, etc. are in one way or another "gender variant". To not include one part of a group is like denying that your arm exists.

We all face very similar problems; we all risk being discriminated against, bashed, abused, raped, beaten, and even killed for our "gender variance." So why the hell should we be fighting amongst ourselves over such inconsequential differences when there is a larger battle to be fought that we can all benefit from in the end?

Shouldn't we just stop drawing LINES to separate ourselves from each other, stop labeling and categorizing each other, and just ACCEPT and LOVE each other as the thinking feeling HUMAN BEINGS we all are? There is great wisdom in the saying "United we stand, Divided we fall."

~April

The enemy of my enemy is my friend
    Arab proverb


Also the laws against gay marriage in fact generally do not apply once a legal change of sex has been recorded (assuming it's between a legal female and male).

Actually, any contract entered into in 'good faith' is valid.  California might have 'outlawed' gay marriage, but those marriages done in SF during the Winter of Love, as well as those done after the Supreme Court decision, but before the vote, are all valid and binding.

Quote

Also the laws against gay marriage in fact generally do not apply once a legal change of sex has been recorded (assuming it's between a legal female and male).

this was not the case in Christie Lee Littleton's case, which is still being used in making decisions for other TS marriage based cases. 

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Post Merge: July 08, 2010, 11:36:04 AM

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Quote from: AprilDawn on July 07, 2010, 11:41:43 PM
I too feel that the T belongs in the group, and to exclude them is wrong and somewhat ignorant. Anyone who lives outside the accepted gender norms, whether they be gay, lesbian, bisexual, transsexual, androgynous, drag, etc. are in one way or another "gender variant". To not include one part of a group is like denying that your arm exists.

What about the people that dont feel they belong in that group? What about the fact that some gay/lesbians dont like TS people for one reason or another and have animosity towards them.  I have talked to lots of TS friends that call a LGBT hotline for consultation and help only to get a hostile response or someone that just doesnt know what to do with them or just doesnt care. 

The way i see it, i was born with a defect, just like someone who was born blind or deaf, or any other mental/physiological difference.  A symptom of that is depression, treatment involves self esteem and self image, just like someone who is blind can live a normal life so too can someone who is TS.  You dont see parades and gathering of groups that are one birth defect gathering with a different birth defect, because i think if given the choice almost all would just like to be normal human beings, i know i do, I dont want to be this way and in fact i HATE it, but this way is the only way i can live.  As a man i was a complete failure for years and i didnt understand why, after i went full time my life is perfect, things make sense and life is harder, but living is way easier and stress free.

So why is it so important to be a part of LGB?  Is it because we dont think we can get things done on our own? I think being a minority has advantages.  Giving equality to a small group rather then a huge swath of a population is less threatening to a lot of people, if you base those rights to facts.  You have to remember forcing change often times leads to more anger and hatred, and that gradual change might lead to better results and more comfort for everyone.  Let me give you this example:

What if you made a friend after you went full time, the friend didnt know your past, and you are friends for years, you shared many a happy time, that person is married to someone in power or is someone in power.  Later on they discover that you are TS.  Would this person's views on TS have been changed, yes, will that person make decisions based on your friendship in matters relating to TS issues, yes.  Not to mention the fact that becoming friends with that person makes you friends with a lot of their friends and is a ripple effect. 

There is a  lot of fear with TS and LGB in general is due to people turning on the TV and seeing weirdness.  I have seen people do things in parades that just sicken me sometimes, and instead of uniting we divide, i know if i dont want to be associated with those people, neither does a lot of others.  I dont know about everyone else who is TS like me, but i just want a normal life, you know, the house, the adopted kids, the picket fence, the dog, the car, and a nice spouse, i am not like the people portrayed on TV, but i find that things like that do more damage then good, which is why i believe TS should be apart from LGB and even TG, if assimilation into the norm is what we are after.

I dont mean to offend in my way of thinking, I am just putting things out there, many people have posted very intelligent answers but know that unity is not always a good thing, typically coming together can mean getting things done, however in the case of lemmings it means if one falls they all fall, and it is my belief the TS community is strong enough on its own to get things done, but if you want to join with someone, join with intersex as they have more in common.

"You" can choose not to involve yourself with the GLBT.
"You" can choose to start a "T only" movement.

The rest of us that are happy being with the GLB bunch, for any number of reasons, can choose to hang with them.

Honestly, I wouldn't trade the strong support I got amongst my GLBT organization for anything.

Quote from: Miniar on July 08, 2010, 11:48:38 AM
"You" can choose not to involve yourself with the GLBT.
"You" can choose to start a "T only" movement.

The rest of us that are happy being with the GLB bunch, for any number of reasons, can choose to hang with them.

Honestly, I wouldn't trade the strong support I got amongst my GLBT organization for anything.

Can i ask what kind of support you got? what have they done for you specifically?  I am not being hostile i just want to know how they helped, because i got none.  I did meet nice gay / lesbian / Bi, but they were just people i met not at some LGBT function or anything.

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Post Merge: July 08, 2010, 11:18:16 AM

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Quote from: Arch on June 26, 2010, 01:14:59 PM
Because no sandwich is complete without tomato?

As long as their is a B in there for bacon i am happy.

I had an intersex acquaintance that was upset that "I" was often left off of LGBT.  Now I am seeing LGBTI more often, but it is still not common. 

I have had several gay friends think that bisexuals are just confused - there are stereotypes and prejudices to overcome even within the LGB community. 

I see the point that grouping T with LGB mixes gender and sexual orientation, but on the other hand, there are a lot of commonalities as well and there is more strength if both communities group together.  The latter just means that there must be adequate education both within and without the LGBTI community. 

Quote from: Izumi on July 08, 2010, 12:16:29 PM
Can i ask what kind of support you got? what have they done for you specifically?  I am not being hostile i just want to know how they helped, because i got none.  I did meet nice gay / lesbian / Bi, but they were just people i met not at some LGBT function or anything.

The most important thing they've done for me, as an individual, is when the social worker working for the Icelandic GLBT organization called Samtökin 78 was the person which was able to tell me who to contact to start transition. She even met with me face to face for a coffee to make sure I had all the information available.

Other than that "for me specifically" thing, S78 have a place where people can meet up and do stuff. They host a monthly trans-meeting, providing the meeting with not only location, but drinks (coffee mostly) and such as well.
They also allocate a portion of their income to fund trans-folk to come to the annual trans-groups organizational meeting where "management" of the sub-group is voted for and such.
They also help make Transsexuals more visible with Pride, making a point to offer trans-folk the option to nominate their representative as a "speaker" at the end of the march, giving the T of the GLBT equation an equal opportunity and time allocated, to speak out.

Quote from: Miniar on July 08, 2010, 01:29:39 PM
The most important thing they've done for me, as an individual, is when the social worker working for the Icelandic GLBT organization called Samtökin 78 was the person which was able to tell me who to contact to start transition. She even met with me face to face for a coffee to make sure I had all the information available.

Other than that "for me specifically" thing, S78 have a place where people can meet up and do stuff. They host a monthly trans-meeting, providing the meeting with not only location, but drinks (coffee mostly) and such as well.
They also allocate a portion of their income to fund trans-folk to come to the annual trans-groups organizational meeting where "management" of the sub-group is voted for and such.
They also help make Transsexuals more visible with Pride, making a point to offer trans-folk the option to nominate their representative as a "speaker" at the end of the march, giving the T of the GLBT equation an equal opportunity and time allocated, to speak out.

More then i got or my friends.  Pretty much on your own in a lot of places, my therapist actually holds monthly gatherings for her clients, which is a nice place to meet.  I guess its different where you go, but like i said people are what make a difference if you have people willing to help that is nice but i have to ask one thing.....

Are you really proud to be TS? Its something i cant grasp, because i hate being TS, people talk about the TS lifestyle i dont know what they mean, its not anymore exciting or FUN its no different from what a normal Female(MTF) or Male (FTM) does... 

I mean given the choice wouldn't you rather have just been  born a GG guy or girl and not had that part that makes you TS? I dont understand how people can be proud to be something that gives them pain.   Someone asked me once if i could take a pill that would make me a normal guy instead of MTF, and i would be able to feel and be a normal guy would i take it?  I said YES, its a no brainer, I would give anything to not have to go through all this, i do it only because i have to and life makes sense when I am a woman, I dont have the mentality to be a man, i tried, i suck at it, i have to change all my initial ways i react to things and be more an actor playing a part rather then just living my life.  Are you the same? or am i just unique in that....?

"... are you proud of being TS? ... I dont understand how people can be proud to be something that gives them pain."

The problem is that "pride" has many different meanings. I'm not "proud" in the sense that I'm "proud" of my high score on MarioCart or the gold star my kindergarten teacher gave me for the picture I drew of a cat or whatever. I'm not "proud" in the sense that I'm proud of my puppy for learning how not to pee on the kitchen floor, or in the sense that I'm proud of the noble men and women overseas defending my Freedom from the forces of Evil, or in the sense that I'm proud to be a Texan.*

I'm also not proud in the sense of committing the cardinal sin of placing myself above others; at least, not in any way that relates to my trans status.

I'm very definitely proud of being trans in the sense that I'm not the slightest bit ashamed, and that I don't see myself as any less fully human, and that, except for not wanting to deal with people's ignorance and bigotry, I don't care to hide from the fact that I'm trans nor to hide it from others, however painful it might have been or might continue to be. And I'm quite proud that I managed to eventually screw up the will and determination and strength of character to stand up to all the many societal forces acting against my desire to transition.

What I don't get is why anyone would be proud of anything that didn't ever cause them pain or hardship. What's to be proud of?





*I'm actually from Massachusetts; Texas is one of my least favorite states. I don't have a puppy or play MarioCart either. I was being rhetorical.

I am proud of myself for choosing transition over death. I am proud of the acomplishments in my transition to date.
It takes alot of integrity to live true to self when all of society seems hell bent on grinding us to the ground and erasing our existance.
I am a proud TS for these reasons.

Quote from: Alyssa M. on July 08, 2010, 03:15:38 PM
"... are you proud of being TS? ... I dont understand how people can be proud to be something that gives them pain."

The problem is that "pride" has many different meanings. I'm not "proud" in the sense that I'm "proud" of my high score on MarioCart or the gold star my kindergarten teacher gave me for the picture I drew of a cat or whatever. I'm not "proud" in the sense that I'm proud of my puppy for learning how not to pee on the kitchen floor, or in the sense that I'm proud of the noble men and women overseas defending my Freedom from the forces of Evil, or in the sense that I'm proud to be a Texan.*

I'm also not proud in the sense of committing the cardinal sin of placing myself above others; at least, not in any way that relates to my trans status.

I'm very definitely proud of being trans in the sense that I'm not the slightest bit ashamed, and that I don't see myself as any less fully human, and that, except for not wanting to deal with people's ignorance and bigotry, I don't care to hide from the fact that I'm trans nor to hide it from others, however painful it might have been or might continue to be. And I'm quite proud that I managed to eventually screw up the will and determination and strength of character to stand up to all the many societal forces acting against my desire to transition.

What I don't get is why anyone would be proud of anything that didn't ever cause them pain or hardship. What's to be proud of?

It seems to me your are proud of your achievements at overcoming being TS then actually being TS, like i mentioned before no one wants to be TS, if they do they have a screw loose somewhere, but going through everything changes you into a stronger person, sadly some people die from the attempt.  If you stop and think of it, it can be the scariest thing you ever do you have to be willing to give up everything you treasure in life, your family, your friends, your career, and even your life when you choose this path there is no guarantees and its only the strength of your hope that helps you continue....

So reading your post it seems that your not proud of being TS, you are just proud of yourself for being strong enough to deal with it.  There is a difference in the two. LGB are proud they are Gay, Lesbian, or BI, TS aren't proud to be TS, they are only proud they survived it.... 

Quote from: Izumi on July 08, 2010, 01:40:57 PM
Are you really proud to be TS? Its something i cant grasp, because i hate being TS, people talk about the TS lifestyle i dont know what they mean, its not anymore exciting or FUN its no different from what a normal Female(MTF) or Male (FTM) does... 
-snip-
Are you the same? or am i just unique in that....?

If given the choice to change the past and be born a perfectly healthy baby boy instead of the little "mishap" at birth, I'd think about it. I'd consider it.
I won't lie, I would be terribly tempted even.
But then, I look around myself, and I start to think about the things that would have turned out different for the change.

You see, it wouldn't just be the genitals that were different.
When I was 15, I moved to Reykjavík (in with my dad) in part to be with a boy I knew. I never would have dated him if I had been male, since he was straight.
If I'd never dated him, maybe I wouldn't have gone to Rvk. And then I wouldn't have met Fjóna, my best friend for years. And if I hadn't met her I'd never gone to the goth nights and met my first husband. And if I hadn't met him I wouldn't have my daughter and also, I wouldn't have started playing Dark Age of Camelot and I wouldn't have met (through that game) the Swede I partnered up with and lived with after my marriage fell apart. And if I hadn't gone to Sweden I wouldn't have met PP, and if I hadn't met him I wouldn't have found out about otherkin and I wouldn't have joined Other Haven. And if I hadn't joined Other Haven, I wouldn't have met my current partner, lover, husband and best friend (one person).
I also wouldn't have met Archer, Gesigewigu's, K, etc, etc, etc, .. people I call friends, people I love.

Yes, it's probable I would have had other friends instead, other partners, other loves. But I don't know anything about these other people, who I know are the people I have.
And I truly love the people I have.

I'd lay down my life for my partner. I'd give my last dollar for any of these friends.

I'd take the time to look at these things, and I would choose not to make the change.

Who I am is defined not only by my mind, but by my body.
My body has, in part, shaped the life that I have lived and the experiences I have gotten through it, both bad and good.
What I have experienced, what I have lived through, has created the person I am today.
I wouldn't be "me" if I had been born a perfectly happy baby boy. I'd be a whole other person. I might not even be a person who "I" could respect. I don't know who I'd be.

I consider myself a reasonable intelligent, and honorable man.
I take a measure of pride in who I am, and my brain-body mismatch has been a factor in creating the person who I am.

I don't find my transsexualism something to be shameful, nor do I see it as something to be proud of in the sense that you're proud of your achievements.
But I do take enough pride in who I am to not feel the need to hide, or to excuse myself in any way.

Yes, being trans causes me pain, but I refuse to allow it to cause me any more pain than it has to. I accept it's inherent pain (the undeniable realization made every morning that the body isn't what it should be) and seek to alleviate it by making the necessary changes, but I refuse to accept any unnecessary pain caused by it (shame, jealousy, guilt, excessive wishful thinking, obsessing over what-ifs, etc, etc, etc).
This is a part of my life, for better or worse, but it isn't my whole life. No more than my eyesight is. No more than the length of my legs is.

Are you really proud to be TS? Its something i cant grasp, because i hate being TS, people talk about the TS lifestyle i dont know what they mean, its not anymore exciting or FUN its no different from what a normal Female(MTF) or Male (FTM) does...

I may not be proud to be TG (I don't really care for the term TS so I don't use it), but I am definitely proud to be ME. I'm happy to be me. That's something I have never been able to say ever before in my life. Not knowing myself, and hating myself, and not understanding anything I felt or why I felt it was the worst feeling I could imagine. No, I would not choose to be TG, but what is the point in wasting energy stressing and worrying and wishing and hating? Does all that negative energy do any good in the end?

I also do not think I have a "birth defect" or a "mental illness" or a "disease". I'm just one of millions of unique, special, and beautiful people on this planet trying to find her way. Maybe you feel so badly because of a lack of support. I'm one of the lucky ones, I know, since nearly everyone I hold dear is still with me after coming out and beginning transition. I'm also excited as hell that I don't have to HIDE my true desires, feelings, and actions. I don't have to wear the "man suit" any more and try to fit in. I can be me. Fully, beautifully flawed me. Why should I still be miserable?

Quote from: Izumi on July 08, 2010, 05:13:16 PM
LGB are proud they are Gay, Lesbian, or BI

I am also "pansexual". (Goes under the B part of the GLB)
I'm married to another man.

I approach it the exact same way as being Trans.

None of the GLB people I know are "proud" of their sexuality like people are "proud" of their achievements.
They have a measure of pride in their own selves and refuse to hide themselves.

"Pride" is not about pride. It's about visibility, solidarity, and self confidence.
Not about how "awesome" it is to be Gay, Lesbian, Bisexual or Trans.
It's about the fact that we exist and we should not be made to feel ashamed for being who we are. That we ALL deserve the same rights.

Quote from: Izumi on July 08, 2010, 05:13:16 PM
It seems to me your are proud of your achievements at overcoming being TS then actually being TS, like i mentioned before no one wants to be TS, if they do they have a screw loose somewhere, but going through everything changes you into a stronger person, sadly some people die from the attempt.  If you stop and think of it, it can be the scariest thing you ever do you have to be willing to give up everything you treasure in life, your family, your friends, your career, and even your life when you choose this path there is no guarantees and its only the strength of your hope that helps you continue....

So reading your post it seems that your not proud of being TS, you are just proud of yourself for being strong enough to deal with it.  There is a difference in the two. LGB are proud they are Gay, Lesbian, or BI, TS aren't proud to be TS, they are only proud they survived it....

You are focussing on part of what I said, but you're missing the most important part:

Quote from: Alyssa M. on July 08, 2010, 03:15:38 PM
The problem is that "pride" has many different meanings. ...

I'm very definitely proud of being trans in the sense that I'm not the slightest bit ashamed, and that I don't see myself as any less fully human, and that, except for not wanting to deal with people's ignorance and bigotry, I don't care to hide from the fact that I'm trans nor to hide it from others, however painful it might have been or might continue to be.

[additionally, but less importantly]

I'm quite proud that I managed to eventually screw up the will and determination and strength of character to stand up to all the many societal forces acting against my desire to transition.

...

I'm sorry I didn't make that more clear. Also, I don't know a single person who is proud of their sexuality in the way you are talking about; though I definitely know gay/bi/pansexual people who are proud of getting over the bigotry they have had to face in order to come to terms with their sexuality. I think sometimes trans people (myself included) forget how hard just being gay can be for many people; it just seem so comparatively trivial.

--

When Miniar says this:

Quote from: Miniar on July 08, 2010, 07:34:26 PM
"Pride" is not about pride. It's about visibility, solidarity, and self confidence.

Well ... that's what I would call "pride," or at least it's something very close to it.

For reference, this is what I'm talking about:

Quote from: The Oxford English Dictionary
pride

I. The quality of being proud.

1. a. A high, esp. an excessively high, opinion of one's own worth or importance which gives rise to a feeling or attitude of superiority over others; inordinate self-esteem.
  In this sense the first of the seven deadly or capital sins
1. b. An instance of this. rare in later use.
1. c. Personified, esp. as the first of the seven deadly sins. Now chiefly in proverbs, see sense 1d.
1. d. In proverbs. various examples from the Bible and Biblical commentary
1. e. With of specifying the cause or subject of pride.
  Now passing into senses 3 and 5. See also pride of life at Phrases 1.

2. Arrogant, haughty, or overbearing behaviour, demeanour, or treatment of others, esp. as exhibiting an inordinately high opinion of oneself.

3. a. A consciousness of what befits, is due to, or is worthy of oneself or one's position; self-respect; self-esteem, esp. of a legitimate or healthy kind or degree.
3. b. pride and prejudice (occas. prejudice and pride[/b]). Cf. PREJUDICE n. 1.

4. A person of whom, or thing of which, any person or group of people is proud; that which causes a feeling of pride in its possessor; (hence) the foremost, best, or most distinguished of a class, country, etc. In pride and joy: a cherished person or thing. See also Compounds 2.

5. The feeling of satisfaction, pleasure, or elation derived from some action, ability, possession, etc., which one believes does one credit. Chiefly in to take (a) pride in.

II. In extended use
(the OED lists various extended uses of the word, most obsolete or poetical)

So, Izumi, you're thinking of sense 5 of the word. I'm thinking mostly of 3a, as do the overwhelming majority of people at Pride. I don't know a single person who is "proud," in sense 5, or their sexuality, whether gay, straight, or anything else.

Quote from: Alyssa M. on July 08, 2010, 11:36:42 PMI think sometimes trans people (myself included) forget how hard just being gay can be for many people; it just seem so comparatively trivial.

I agree on this.
I am an ftm and married to another man, and I have the full love and support of my people.
My friend chooses celibacy to the point where he refuses to acknowledge even having a sexuality (has told me that much) because he fears being bi or gay, because if he were, he'd face being rejected from his family, his job, and even death.

The difference between my life and his is drastic.
More so because of the differences between the countries in which we live.

Another friend of mine uses selective language to misinform his mum about the two blokes (me and hubby) he's about to go see this summer in Toronto, because otherwise she'd go on a rant about "the gays".

(Heck, I have a straight, white, cis-male friends whose lives have been harder than mine.)

The GLB crowd still doesn't have equal rights nor freedom from hate and abuse.

Agree with Izumi, on everything she has said, (you look great in your avatar pic btw!). A few of you have said that there GLB and T should be together because they all cross typical gender roles. But, not all of them do....there are some manly gay men out there and some very femme lesbians. So, how can it be we reunite over gender variance, when this doesn't always happen.

Again, no reason for GLB to be part of T unless they can actually mutually accept each other, which of course doesn't always happen, as many of us have seen.

Chrissi

Quote from: Amy on June 19, 2010, 07:52:47 AM
I really don't understand why there's a T in LGBT. Being transgendered has nothing to do with sexuality, and I think it makes the whole issue more confusing for everyone to understand. Whenever I tell other people about being transgendered they always question my sexuality, which is partly due to this. Although I am bisexual it's got nothing to do with me being transgendered.

The lesbian, gay and bisexual parts are all connected, and to me, the transgendered part is unrelated.

Because someone has to be last in line.

Quote from: Icephoenyx on July 14, 2010, 12:10:47 PM
Agree with Izumi, on everything she has said, (you look great in your avatar pic btw!). A few of you have said that there GLB and T should be together because they all cross typical gender roles. But, not all of them do....there are some manly gay men out there and some very femme lesbians. So, how can it be we reunite over gender variance, when this doesn't always happen.

Again, no reason for GLB to be part of T unless they can actually mutually accept each other, which of course doesn't always happen, as many of us have seen.

Chrissi

It seems to me that homo- and bisexuality do indeed cross traditional gender lines, when seen from the point of view of a heteronormative, cisgendered society. This point of view dictates that people who are sexually interested in people of the same sex have indeed crossed a line, and have violated traditional gender roles.

So it isn't so much the gender role presentation (manly man, femme woman, femme man, manly woman), but the gender role with regards to romantic/erotic relationships. From a heteronormative, cisgendered point of view this cross the same line as being transgender.

At least, that's how it seems to be to me.

Quote from: Omika on July 14, 2010, 01:49:54 PM
Because someone has to be last in line.

Awww i dont want to be last in line, I would rather be the tomato in the Lettuce Gorganzola Bacon Tomato sandwich ^_^b.  Mmmm... heh, i think i will make a LGBT right now, it made me hungry.

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Post Merge: July 14, 2010, 03:27:17 PM

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Quote from: Shades O'Grey on July 14, 2010, 02:22:33 PM
It seems to me that homo- and bisexuality do indeed cross traditional gender lines, when seen from the point of view of a heteronormative, cisgendered society. This point of view dictates that people who are sexually interested in people of the same sex have indeed crossed a line, and have violated traditional gender roles.

So it isn't so much the gender role presentation (manly man, femme woman, femme man, manly woman), but the gender role with regards to romantic/erotic relationships. From a heteronormative, cisgendered point of view this cross the same line as being transgender.

At least, that's how it seems to be to me.

Well aside from all that i think the reason why T is different from the rest is not the gender situation as much as people are looking to add trans sexuality into the DSM as a medical defect similar to intersex.  People dont like the term defect, i understand, i am just not implying that your less then human by that statement, it means you have things to overcome that other people do not.  A blind person is blind, their is no disputing that, they overcome their blindness with treatment and practice, so a TS is TS and with treatment lives a normal life, so far as i know their is no treatment for gay lesbian or bi, neither is it a medical condition which needs correction.

It is possible a TS can be gay, lesbian, or Bi, as well, in that case they should be a part of the LGB group imo.  However, some TS are hetero and just want to blend into society and fear the stigma that being grouped up with LGB can cause.  When your a member of large group it is possible for the something beneficial to raise everyone to a new level, but just as possible that the actions of a few people in the group can give the whole group a bad reputation in society.  Whether being separate from LGB or staying with them is a good or bad idea i am not 100% sure, but until we have an alternative we will never know.  I will just try and live stealth and see how well it goes, so far so good.

L, G, B, and T were banded together to fight our common enemies of ignorance, bigotry, and discrimination. It's sometimes an uneasy alliance. I do think it's ridiculous in the extreme that so many people can't just live and let live, or cannot understand that love has neither color nor gender (nor religion).

I am proud of having overcome my lifelong condition and reached a point where I now feel whole, complete, and cured. I am proud of this achievement. I don't care anything at all that I used to be a man, or whatever. ::) I'm not ashamed of it; it's part of who I am. I'm not going around carrying a "PRIDE" banner, and I generally choose to live my life as stealth as possible. But if someone knows my past it really doesn't matter. If I can use my experience to help someone else struggling with this condition, then I will gladly do so. Since my surgery it just doesn't seem that big of a deal whether anyone knows or not. It's never a problem. My dysphoria and GID are soundly cured, and that's what matters most to me.

My surgeon, Dr. Christine McGinn (http://www.drchristinemcginn.com/drmcginn/), is also a transwoman who made the decision to be publicly open about it in part to provide a positive role model for other transfolk. In my eyes she is a first class hero.

As a practical matter, GLB defy gender stereotypes in the eyes of society by sleeping with people of a sex that is not considered appropriate.  "Straight" transgender people also defy gender stereotypes in the eyes of society by transitioning.  In that sense, we share a common enemy: societal taboos regarding defiance of gender stereotypes.

At the same time, a much higher number of transitioners identify as gay or lesbian post transition than in the general population.  And every transitioner is classified by society as GLB at some point, unless their sexual orientation orientation happens to change upon transition.  As a result, transgendered people, pre or post transition, are much more common in the GLB community than they are in society at large.  Thus, it is difficult for GLB peeps to simply tend to their own business without having a need to include the fairly common and highly visible transgendered people in their midsts, especially since the enemy is basically shared.

Quote from: glendagladwitch on July 14, 2010, 11:14:30 PM
At the same time, a much higher number of transitioners identify as gay or lesbian post transition than in the general population.  And every transitioner is classified by society as GLB at some point, unless their sexual orientation orientation happens to change upon transition.

My sexual orientation changed during transition.....
As a guy i liked girls, as a girl i like guys, as HRT continued my interest in women went poof, and replaced by wanting to be with men.   So .... what does that make me, i no longer have an interest in sleeping with women at all?

The point i was trying to make in the previous statement is that while TS are gay lesbian bi and straight, that's a separate issue from being TS and while the other 3 LGB are attacked by society because of their sexual preferences, a T is different in the respect that started out incorrect to begin with and have to correct it first, before we can even really know our orientation.  A T (mtf) dating a man is straight as is a T (ftm) dating a woman after all. 

I am saying that T should be separate because, TS typically want to just transition and blend into society, transitioning is treatment for a condition we have, we really dont have a choice, if we want to live normally we have to transition.  After that, yes a MTF can go on to date a woman but then she wouldnt be a T, she would be a lesbian.  See what i mean?

I dont know about everyone else, but i hate even the word transsexual, I am a woman.  Thats all i will ever be, and thats all i know how to be, so i would rather just be called that.  To be called a Transsexual woman even makes me sad.

See being part of LGB makes T into a sexual thing when its really not, and we get caught in sexual issues when we should be caught in medical issues.  I care about my SRS more then what sex i am attracted to.  If TS people were treated the same as someone who is born blind then the stigma that people have toward us in society would start to go away, and understanding would follow.  Next time you see a blind person you feel compassion for what they have to go through and feel good that they function normally in society, many are even amazed at their skill even though they are missing their sight, along with this you see them as still fully human.  Wouldnt it be interesting if society saw TS people the same way? "Oh, she was born with that, but look how she's overcome it, congratulations".  We in the TS community already praise each other in the same manner and are amazed at each other's progress, but since we are mixed in with LGB the fact that we have a medical issues are second to our sexual issues, which is NOT how it should be.

The idea that T should be different because T just want a "normal" life makes me a bit sad.
I'm a pansexual & polyamorous person. I don't think the life I want, married to a man, is "abnormal".
I don't think that being "not a straight person" is to have an "abnormal" life.

I want to be accepted as "just another human being" be it as a pansexual bloke, a polyamorous bloke, or a transsexual bloke.

In that way, I think that separating the T from the LGB is incorrect, if not a little bit homophobic.

Quote from: Miniar on July 15, 2010, 01:22:11 PM
The idea that T should be different because T just want a "normal" life makes me a bit sad.
I'm a pansexual & polyamorous person. I don't think the life I want, married to a man, is "abnormal".
I don't think that being "not a straight person" is to have an "abnormal" life.

I want to be accepted as "just another human being" be it as a pansexual bloke, a polyamorous bloke, or a transsexual bloke.

In that way, I think that separating the T from the LGB is incorrect, if not a little bit homophobic.

You misunderstand my intention, a normal life can be a normal gay lesbian bi, whatever.  A normal life simply means when you walk down the street and people dont stare at you and think your a freak.  Thats the normal life i speak of, you look at a gay man they can be gay and you wouldnt know it, you look at a transsexual depending on the degree, the reactions are mixed, regardless if they are gay or straight.  Would people have the same reactions to someone who is born blind or deaf or something else? NO, but they do for us, like i said because people put more emphasis on sexuality then they do on the medical aspects of what being TS.  Our goals sexually are the same as LGB, even if we win rights to gay marriage or whatever stigma disappears from being gay lesbian and bi, that still wont erase how people feel about TS, and that is why i believe we need a separate agenda, however meeting and working toward goals of sexuality are fine, I see no problem of an MTF woman joining a lesbian LGB group, but will she be treated like a woman? or a TS?  now you see what i am getting at... no matter what we are, when we are "found out" we become T, even if we see ourselves as a woman or man, and even people in the LGB community see us T and not like them.... and that is MORE sad.

In my GLBT group there's one MTF and me, She's seen and treated as a woman and I'm seen and treated as a bloke.
A person that had recently joined the meetings even had a "wtf?" moment with her because she's straight (as in, what the heck? why is she in charge? she's not even bi?). When she explained her situation, the issue went away, and she was after that treated as a woman none the less.

I don't want people to look at me as if I were blind.
I don't want sympathy nor awe.

I just want to go on with my life.

I know it's not intended to state that GLB "Life" is "abnormal", but that is undeniably what comes with it when the assertion is made that the "difference" between them and us is or includes that T just want a "normal" life.

What I want as a transsexual bloke is exactly the same as what I want as a pansexual bloke, in way of treatment from the world and rights.
I want to be me, who I am, what I am, the way I am, without being in any way discriminated against for it.
I want to be seen as normal.

I don't want to be seen as "not transsexual", I don't mind being seen as a TS, I want TS to be seen and treated as "natural".
Not strange, not weird, not wrong, not "less of a man" than a non TS bloke, not something horrible, or respectable, or in any way anything "other" than "a thing".

I want my transsexual status to be considered "something that happens sometimes, but can be treated, not a big deal".
I want to be able to say "brb, is time for my testosterone shot" in any setting and not get any "wtf?" responces.
Just like I want to be able to say "brb, hubby needs me" without the "wtf?".

My sexuality and my transsexual status are two, different, and unrelated things, which are being treated to the exact same type of bigotry.
If one is accepted, then the other may suffer less hate.
To fight this type of bigotry is in the best interests of me as a trans-man as well as in the best interests of me as a pansexual-man.

As such, I'll happily join hands with anyone else suffering this form of bigotry as we have a mutual best interest, a mutual cause, even if our causes differ.

It's like that poem...

"THEY CAME FIRST for the Communists,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist.

THEN THEY CAME for the trade unionists,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a trade unionist.

THEN THEY CAME for the Jews,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew.

THEN THEY CAME for me
and by that time no one was left to speak up."

Quote from: Miniar on July 15, 2010, 02:04:29 PM
"THEY CAME FIRST for the Communists,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist.

THEN THEY CAME for the trade unionists,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a trade unionist.

THEN THEY CAME for the Jews,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew.

THEN THEY CAME for me
and by that time no one was left to speak up."

Thats a very nice quote, but you forget that groups while great for banding together in common purpose suffer from stigma as a group as well, and just because your large doesnt mean you wont suffer.  I give you the example of ACORN which had to break up and change its name once a few people in the organization did something "BAD". 

You mentioned the following:
"I don't want to be seen as "not transsexual", I don't mind being seen as a TS, I want TS to be seen and treated as "natural".  I have to agree with you in that people have to understand that being TS is natural, however i dont agree with you when i comes to being seen as NOT TS, and by keeping that label you are asserting yourself as separate from the rest of society and different.  So LGB are different too so lets join them right? what about the larger group of people who aren't LGB, why not join them? isn't their strength in numbers like you mentioned in the poem?

All i am pointing out is the issue is more complex for us then simply sexuality.  A lot of other factors come into play and hoping that if the LGB agenda is completed will somehow elevate us is something based on speculation / hope and not on fact.  Its much easier to tolerate a gay person because they seem like everyone else, however if a TS uses the bathroom it becomes a whole issue for a company, but a LGB using one isn't.  Personally i hate the term TS to describe me, its term that degrades, and separates.  I would rather be a woman that has TS, or in my case SUFFERING from TS.  TS is natural, so is blindness, cancer, and a whole bunch of other things....

You also seem to shun things like pity and sympathy.  In exchange what would like to have? hate,fear, and indifference like we have now.  I would rather someone feel sympathetic toward me then nothing at all or even worse hateful.  I see nothing wrong with that emotion, its one born out of love and compassion for each other, but because people dont want to be labeled as a defect or whatever you cast it aside as if it were worthless.  If they feel nothing their is no contact their is no interaction there is no chance at connection, with sympathy at least a chance to make a connection for understanding can be established.  The more people you come in contact with and the more lives you touch the more the world will change, just by being a good person will people change around you...

So i see myself as a woman suffering with TS, I see you as a man suffering from TS, am i wrong? do you not suffer because of it? why do you let it define you, people get cancer they go through it, they beat it and they become stronger people, they dont say oh thats a cancer person.   They say that X, they survived cancer.   Would it be so bad if the world looked at us the same way in awe of the strength it takes to deal with this?

I dont know why its so hard to accept that you were born different and have an issue dealing with birth, the only way you can accept actually being labeled TS in my mind is if you dont really have it and want to live the "LIFESTYLE" or whatever.  I think of it as a birth defect that needs to be overcome, nothing more.  If everyone saw it that way i think people wouldnt hate us as much and maybe even show sympathy for what we have to go through.   

Quote from: Izumi on July 15, 2010, 02:59:24 PM
Thats a very nice quote, but you forget that groups while great for banding together in common purpose suffer from stigma as a group as well, and just because your large doesnt mean you wont suffer.  I give you the example of ACORN which had to break up and change its name once a few people in the organization did something "BAD". 

I looked up ACORN, it's not quite comparable, but I'll take the analogy/example.
No, just because you're a larger group, doesn't mean you won't suffer.
Most prejudice stands because of the actions of the few being held as examples of how the many are flawed, this happens without banding together, this happens as long as people have "anything" in common. I take to point the recent news about a transsexual woman who was convicted of possessing child pornography.
How many people will take this as evidence that all "->-bleeped-<-s" are perverts and freaks?
You really think that number is affected by T standing with GLB?

Quote from: IzumiYou mentioned the following:
"I don't want to be seen as "not transsexual", I don't mind being seen as a TS, I want TS to be seen and treated as "natural".  I have to agree with you in that people have to understand that being TS is natural, however i dont agree with you when i comes to being seen as NOT TS, and by keeping that label you are asserting yourself as separate from the rest of society and different.  So LGB are different too so lets join them right? what about the larger group of people who aren't LGB, why not join them? isn't their strength in numbers like you mentioned in the poem?

We are all different, but I'm not separating myself from the rest of society.
I explained that I want to be seen as a perfectly normal human being, regardless of whether I'm trans, poly, pan, or in any other way "different".
I don't mind being seen as a transsexual, the problem isn't that "I'm" seen as transsexual, the problem is the ignorance, hate, stigma, and other BS that people impose on us. The problem is not that I'm trans, the problem is that people see trans as "abnormal".

I also explained Exactly what the benefit of being associated with the GLB gives us.
We are fighting the "exact" same type of bigotry that originates in the exact same ignorance and idiocy.

Quote from: IzumiAll i am pointing out is the issue is more complex for us then simply sexuality.  A lot of other factors come into play and hoping that if the LGB agenda is completed will somehow elevate us is something based on speculation / hope and not on fact.  Its much easier to tolerate a gay person because they seem like everyone else, however if a TS uses the bathroom it becomes a whole issue for a company, but a LGB using one isn't.  Personally i hate the term TS to describe me, its term that degrades, and separates.  I would rather be a woman that has TS, or in my case SUFFERING from TS.  TS is natural, so is blindness, cancer, and a whole bunch of other things....

Sexuality is not that simple, not for a lot of people.
I have also explained why GLB fighting the same bigotry as we face would carry some effect for us.
And no, not all gay persons "seem like everyone else".

The word transsexual does not separate any more than you allow it to.
Every word we could use to describe ourselves can be considered a word that separates if we choose to take it thus.

Quote from: IzumiYou also seem to shun things like pity and sympathy.  In exchange what would like to have? hate,fear, and indifference like we have now.  I would rather someone feel sympathetic toward me then nothing at all or even worse hateful.  I see nothing wrong with that emotion, its one born out of love and compassion for each other, but because people dont want to be labeled as a defect or whatever you cast it aside as if it were worthless.  If they feel nothing their is no contact their is no interaction there is no chance at connection, with sympathy at least a chance to make a connection for understanding can be established.  The more people you come in contact with and the more lives you touch the more the world will change, just by being a good person will people change around you...

It's easy to see in my writing that I do not want hate nor fear, but indifference wouldn't be so bad to be honest.
A person who was indifferent to my being transsexual would simply not see it as a thing that would sway their emotions for or against me. It would mean that I was judged on the merits of my character, not the congruity of my chromosomes/genitals/what have you.

You can not "love" what you do not "know".
Pity is not an emotion I'd consider born out of "care" for me.

If someone pities me for being trans then they have done so because of their emotional gratification for it, not because it helps me, not because it has a bearing on who I am. I am who I am because of the life I have lived. I wouldn't be "me" without this history and I'm quite comfortable, happy even, with who I am. With me.
I don't want pity. I want the same basic respect as I give others.

You can not have love and care for the person I am without knowing the person I am.
If you don't know me, then your sympathy and pity are in existence only because of what they give you.

People who know me, and care about me, don't pity me for my conditions, not any of them. They respect me on merits of my character, my intelligence, and my ability to do things in-spite of my conditions.
People who don't know me have no business expressing any emotion about my life for they know nothing of my life.

Quote from: IzumiSo i see myself as a woman suffering with TS, I see you as a man suffering from TS, am i wrong? do you not suffer because of it? why do you let it define you, people get cancer they go through it, they beat it and they become stronger people, they dont say oh thats a cancer person.   They say that X, they survived cancer.   Would it be so bad if the world looked at us the same way in awe of the strength it takes to deal with this?

I am a transsexual. I am also a man. I am also a tall person. I am also white. I have fibromyalgia. I wear glasses. I wear clothes.
I am who I am, all of it, for better or worse. I don't define myself by any one word, to assert that is false.
I do have negative effects from being transsexual, it is a problem in my life, but so are other things.

People do beat cancer, yes, and then it goes away, and they don't need treatments anymore.
I will never be fully free of transsexuality. 
I will have to take hormones for the rest of my life.
I will have to live with scars where most other men do not.
I will have to live with genitals that aren't fully "up to code".
I will never father children.
I will never know what it's like to "not" have been born this way.

I refuse to behave as if "trassexual" is some bogey man word that'll overtake my life, steal my identity, and make me less of a man, even with all that.
I'm going to Live, With this.

Quote from: IzumiI dont know why its so hard to accept that you were born different and have an issue dealing with birth, the only way you can accept actually being labeled TS in my mind is if you dont really have it and want to live the "LIFESTYLE" or whatever.  I think of it as a birth defect that needs to be overcome, nothing more.  If everyone saw it that way i think people wouldnt hate us as much and maybe even show sympathy for what we have to go through.

No accusation here, but, are you insinuating that people who accept that they are transsexuals aren't "true" transsexuals?
There's more than your way of doing things you know....

Wow where to start.  First off, i love this discussion it really makes you think, i think that our pasts are probably influencing our ways of thinking which is really interesting.  You for example might have gotten a lot of help from the LGB community while i received none, some of the people i know have horror stories of the way they were treated as well, but i know there is always some bad seeds along with the good.

Here are some quotes:
"You really think that number is affected by T standing with GLB?"

reply to quote 1:
Yes, do think the numbers are affected.  The reason being now you have people that dont really have TS issues getting in trouble and by association TS become part of it, also visibility as a group is lower since people thing LG first then BT last.  Also because of the T in LGBT, we are always referred to in the news as TS man or TS woman, and not a man with TS or a woman with TS, or even left out.  If things were correct then that article would be just about a woman who has child porn and not a TS woman that has child porn like it is now.  Are LGB fighting for your right to be called a man, and mine to be a woman or will i forever be a Trans woman?

Quote 2:
"I also explained Exactly what the benefit of being associated with the GLB gives us.
We are fighting the "exact" same type of bigotry that originates in the exact same ignorance and idiocy. "

reply to quote 2:
No its a different kind of bigotry its not the same, our goals as the TS community is different from LGB.  Hate is hate, we can say all hate is bad then we should join the NAACP as well, because thats the same bigotry by definition.  Making it a sexual characteristic to the bigotry makes it an LGBT issue? Its all still hate, its all still ignorance.  If being a member of LGB is so great, how come everyone is spending so much time educating people about gay, straight, lesbian, but not so much about TS, i dont see that in schools.... If people dont understand the difference between a straight TS woman and a lesbian one, much less the facts out about it, how does that help our cause, most people think i am gay because they have no clue what its like being a woman with TS.  A lot of people just think we are cross dressers.  So when do we start teaching people about our issues? after they win or before they win the gay marriage laws?

Quote 3:
"You can not "love" what you do not "know"

Reply to quote 3:
Yes you can love something you dont know, does your heart not ache when you people suffering? you dont know that but you know its painful for them.  Sometimes you help if you can sometimes you dont.  If you see a kitten on the ground whimpering do you not help it because you dont know what its like to be a cat?  Love and compassion for our fellow human beings is a fundamental emotion we have to survive as a species.  How selfish is that to say that helping you out of pity would be for the other person's benefit not yours.  Giving of yourself for others sake elevates you both, to not accept a gift like that when freely offered is kind of sad.  In today's society where selfishness is the norm its not often you get people who will give without expecting things in return even if it is an empathy to the pain you must be going through.  Those gifts should be the most treasured.

Quote 4:
I will never be fully free of transsexuality.
- That has yet to be determined, your free when you believe yourself to be free of it.  I will be FREE of TS when i am happily married, and raising adopted children.   For you, your freedom might be different.

I will have to take hormones for the rest of my life.
-That has yet to be determined, medical science may prove you wrong.

I will have to live with scars where most other men do not.
-men suffer scars, everyone does, a lot of men have worse scars then you will ever have.

I will have to live with genitals that aren't fully "up to code".
-A science continues it might eventually be up to code, I am in the same boat although to a lesser degree, but just because things down there arent perfect doesnt mean you not a man, plenty of men have Mr. Johnson go MIA for one reason or another and make due, but now they know how you feel.

I will never father children.
-Right now you cant, but in the future, who knows.  I also will never be able to bare a child, but i hope for the day i will, along with a lot of sterile women, and on your side, sterile men, not being able to father a child doesnt mean your not a man.  Anyone can make a baby, it takes a real man to be a father!

I will never know what it's like to "not" have been born this way.
-yeah you will, once you are free from being TS, whatever that is for you, but if you never believe you will be rid of it, you never will.  Aren't you living like a man now? thats pretty much how it is.  All the FTM's i know seem like regular guys to me, i couldn't tell the difference.


I think where we differ is that i believe we can get done more as a separate group, you see the benefit of being together with other groups, while grouping up for certain agendas is fine with me, i dont believe someone in the LGB group can really know what we go through or how we really feel, and the people who know whats best for us, is well, US. 

Quote from: Izumi on July 15, 2010, 06:37:59 PM
I think where we differ is that i believe we can get done more as a separate group, you see the benefit of being together with other groups, while grouping up for certain agendas is fine with me, i dont believe someone in the LGB group can really know what we go through or how we really feel, and the people who know whats best for us, is well, US.

Exactly!!!! The only reason we may seem to have the same enemy is BECAUSE people assume GLB and T are all the same BECAUSE they are lumped together in this generally inaccurate term. Ask your local cis-lesbian what an RLT is and she will probably look at you like you have two heads.

"The T is the tie that binds.  Not that many want to admit it.  Transgender is about crossing socially acceptable gender lines.  An effeminate gay man has crossed that line as has a butch lesbian."

Thanks, Julie! I think this pretty much sums it up. 

Quote from: Icephoenyx on July 14, 2010, 12:10:47 PM
Agree with Izumi, on everything she has said, (you look great in your avatar pic btw!). A few of you have said that there GLB and T should be together because they all cross typical gender roles. But, not all of them do....there are some manly gay men out there and some very femme lesbians. So, how can it be we reunite over gender variance, when this doesn't always happen.

That is just wrong. The most manly and masculine and butch and macho gay men and the most girly and feminine and dainty and ladylike lesbian women transgress one of the most strongly-defended gender norms in this society. Moreover, the revulsion that many people feel toward transgendered people (of all varieties) is strongly tied up in that same norm. It's about sex.

[/quote]
Again, no reason for GLB to be part of T unless they can actually mutually accept each other, which of course doesn't always happen, as many of us have seen.

Chrissi
[/quote]

Then start bloody well accepting already, if that's how you feel. But the fact that some group (read: every group) has haters and in-fighters doesn't mean the group should split up; it means the haters and infighters need to get over themselves and learn to behave.

By your logic, LG should ditch B, and L and G should split up too. Also, gay professionals should should split up with the Castro Street crowd, and radical urban dykes should split up with suburban lesbian moms. In fact, no group of people suffering from similar forms of oppression should ever bother to try to unite.

It's a recipe for failure.

You go, Alyssa!  Speechify!

True except that: gay professionals should should split up with the Castro Street crowd - well, the Castro Boys pretty much are the gay professionals.  I was there a few weeks ago with a friend of mine who was shopping and they had these T-Shirts in one of the stores.  Plain, white cotton (long staple Egyptian cotton of course) made in Japan, only $120.  Only professionals can pay $120 for a t-shirt.

Quote from: tekla on July 15, 2010, 09:36:57 PM
Only professionals can pay $120 for a t-shirt.

Professional fools, that is  ;D

Quote from: Izumi on July 15, 2010, 06:37:59 PM
Wow where to start.  First off, i love this discussion it really makes you think, i think that our pasts are probably influencing our ways of thinking which is really interesting.  You for example might have gotten a lot of help from the LGB community while i received none, some of the people i know have horror stories of the way they were treated as well, but i know there is always some bad seeds along with the good.

Glad you're enjoying it.
I'm having a great time with it myself :)
I really love a good debate, 'specially if it challenges me.
So thank you for that.

I have gotten zero negative experiences with the GLBT of Iceland. It's not even called "GLBT" really, it's called "Samtökin 78" And the they fight for the equal rights of anyone outside the heteronorm, using volunteers from within it's own fold.
The day the first trans-person joined them, they offered her the chance to come teach them about her life, her challenges, and what she needed help with.

Quote from: IzumiYes, do think the numbers are affected.  The reason being now you have people that dont really have TS issues getting in trouble and by association TS become part of it, also visibility as a group is lower since people thing LG first then BT last.  Also because of the T in LGBT, we are always referred to in the news as TS man or TS woman, and not a man with TS or a woman with TS, or even left out.  If things were correct then that article would be just about a woman who has child porn and not a TS woman that has child porn like it is now.  Are LGB fighting for your right to be called a man, and mine to be a woman or will i forever be a Trans woman?

I disagree with you. I do not think that T being a part of the GLBT is "why" a transsexual is called a transsexual on the news. The reason a person gets that tag is that people want to point out how the subject of a piece of news, especially when it's about lawbreaking, differs "from the rest of us". It's not because of he GLB that T gets pointed out whenever possible, in the news.

The local GLB fights for T rights just as much as any other equal rights for anyone outside the heteronorm.

Quote from: IzumiNo its a different kind of bigotry its not the same, our goals as the TS community is different from LGB.  Hate is hate, we can say all hate is bad then we should join the NAACP as well, because thats the same bigotry by definition.  Making it a sexual characteristic to the bigotry makes it an LGBT issue? Its all still hate, its all still ignorance.  If being a member of LGB is so great, how come everyone is spending so much time educating people about gay, straight, lesbian, but not so much about TS, i dont see that in schools.... If people dont understand the difference between a straight TS woman and a lesbian one, much less the facts out about it, how does that help our cause, most people think i am gay because they have no clue what its like being a woman with TS.  A lot of people just think we are cross dressers.  So when do we start teaching people about our issues? after they win or before they win the gay marriage laws?

How do our goals differ? Don't we all just want to be able to live the same life as everyone else? With the same access to the same rights as everyone else?
It is the same bigotry, rooted in the same bs. The arguments the bigots use against trans-people are frequently the same arguments they use against the GLB.

In the "equals-education" in Iceland, where GLBT folk go to schools and teach about GLBT issues, trans is included, specifically because trans-people stepped up and were willing to help write material.
Why is it up to someone else to educate about us?
We can start teaching people about us right now. Just because T stands with GLB doesn't mean we have to sit on our asses and wait for them to do it for us.

Quote from: IzumiYes you can love something you dont know, does your heart not ache when you people suffering? you dont know that but you know its painful for them.  Sometimes you help if you can sometimes you dont.  If you see a kitten on the ground whimpering do you not help it because you dont know what its like to be a cat?  Love and compassion for our fellow human beings is a fundamental emotion we have to survive as a species.  How selfish is that to say that helping you out of pity would be for the other person's benefit not yours.  Giving of yourself for others sake elevates you both, to not accept a gift like that when freely offered is kind of sad.  In today's society where selfishness is the norm its not often you get people who will give without expecting things in return even if it is an empathy to the pain you must be going through.  Those gifts should be the most treasured.

Empathy allows us to think about what we would feel if we were in someone else's position. This is a function of the brain. Mirror Neurons specifically.
It doesn't require us to have "Love" for another person.
I do feel a pang of pain when I see someone else suffer, but it's not because I care about them, it's because mirror neurons fire in my brain and I place myself in their shoes, and I care about me, thus the thought of that pain is "awful".
Cats I love, if it was a fly, or a spider, or a worm, I wouldn't feel a thing. But if it's a kitten, my emotional attachment to my cats would be the backing for the emotional reaction I have towards it. That and the human brain/instinct being geared towards "protecting young".

It's not selfish, it's realistic and based in factual science.
Technically, everything we do, we do because, on some level, it gratifies us. If giving to charity didn't give us a feeling of self worth, that we are "good people" for doing it, or any such thing, then we wouldn't give to charity.
It's how we work, as a species.
It's a good thing we get a positive something from doing something good for someone else, it is necessary for the survival of the species of course, but it means that there is no such thing as a 100% selfless act.
When people assume to know anything about my life, and choose to show me pity or sympathy or awe without any knowledge to back that emotion up, it's not done cause they "love" me, or have "compassion" for me, it's because they imagine that it would be hard for them, and they love themselves.

I don't need, nor do I deserve pity. Neither do I need, nor deserve awe.
I have a friend who is blind. When people pity him, he feels cheated, insulted even. These people pity him not because his life is hard, but because they feel that their lives would be, if they were blind.
He's got a great life. He plays guitar with two bands, spends every week-day doing what he loves (music) and every weekend making a party out of doing what he loves (plays a show, sings, has beer, women and more fun than I can comprehend). And then we sit at a café and someone comes up to him and tells him something about how "proud" he should be of being out in a café, and I watch his bodylanguage shift from "comfortable and having a chat" to "uncomfortable, irritated, humiliated".
Nothing insults him more than people coming up to him assuming to know "anything" about his life.
And I agree with him.

Quote from: IzumiA science continues it might eventually be up to code, I am in the same boat although to a lesser degree, but just because things down there arent perfect doesnt mean you not a man, plenty of men have Mr. Johnson go MIA for one reason or another and make due, but now they know how you feel.

I am no less "a man" for the sake of my genitals.
But these are symptoms of a condition that is treatable, but not 100% removable.

Quote from: IzumiRight now you cant, but in the future, who knows.  I also will never be able to bare a child, but i hope for the day i will, along with a lot of sterile women, and on your side, sterile men, not being able to father a child doesnt mean your not a man.  Anyone can make a baby, it takes a real man to be a father!

Again, I didn't point these things out as reasons why I'm not a man.
I have a daughter as is.
I love her to bits, and I'm being the best mother to her a man can be. ;)

Quote from: Izumi"I will never know what it's like to "not" have been born this way."
-yeah you will, once you are free from being TS, whatever that is for you, but if you never believe you will be rid of it, you never will.  Aren't you living like a man now? thats pretty much how it is.  All the FTM's i know seem like regular guys to me, i couldn't tell the difference.

No, I will never know what it's like.
I can not change the past. No one can change the past.
I can't know what it's like to be born a perfectly healthy baby boy.
I can never know what my life would have been like if I had been born with a penis.

Who I am is forever coloured by the life I've lived, and I can not change the past.
I choose to live with it, all of it, the good and the bad.
I will own my life, not the other way around.

Quote from: IzumiI think where we differ is that i believe we can get done more as a separate group, you see the benefit of being together with other groups, while grouping up for certain agendas is fine with me, i dont believe someone in the LGB group can really know what we go through or how we really feel, and the people who know whats best for us, is well, US.

It is of course, our responsibility, to reach out and teach people about us.
If we can't teach the GLB, a smaller group we already stand with, how are we going to teach everyone else?

The T part of the Icelandic system has made a point of teaching their allies from day one, maybe that's what needs doing over there?

Quote from: Icephoenyx on July 15, 2010, 07:56:38 PM
Exactly!!!! The only reason we may seem to have the same enemy is BECAUSE people assume GLB and T are all the same BECAUSE they are lumped together in this generally inaccurate term. Ask your local cis-lesbian what an RLT is and she will probably look at you like you have two heads.

Actually, I mentioned "real life experience" at one of my earliest meetings and got a "oh, that's where you have to be you all the time right?" from the cis-lesbian sitting across from me. 
Maybe, instead of complaining about what they don't know, trans-people should be better at teaching?

I agree with everything you said in that post Miniar!

We should be the ones teaching people about our cause, because it's really not the job of anyone else but us! I've often told people that TG/TS people need more voices, someone to help speak for us, let the public know we exist and begin teaching the masses the truth about us.

I really have no problem with T being included in GLBT; I've said it before, and I'll continue to say it. As long as we live outside the established and accepted "gender norms" we all have essentially the same battle to fight. Some may say "but we ARE men and women" but to the general public, if you are a GENETIC male you should marry and procreate with a GENETIC female, end of story. Sadly, that's just how it is. We do not (no matter how much we wish we did) fit that specific dynamic. I am NOT a genetic female, and I never will be. My body, through hormones and surgery may be made to LOOK very female, but in all honesty, I will still never BE as female as a genetic female. My DNA still says MALE. My skeleton and bone structure all says MALE. Even once I fully transition, if I marry a genetic male, I am still outside those norms. There's just no getting around it.
So, because of all that, I am NOT living within the established "gender norms" and therefore I feel my "place" so to speak is with others who also live outside those gender norms. A masculine genetic gay male is still living outside those norms because they have relationships with other men. The same is true for "girlie" genetic female lesbians, and so it goes with bisexual people. Nitpicking over the differences between SEX and GENDER seems too much like an evasion to me. Some, for whatever reason, don't want to be included in the GLBT, and will therefore come up with all sorts of arguments against it.

I also agree that I will never know what it's like to grow up a genetic female. I mourn the fact that I never knew all the things that girls experience, feel, and see as they grow from a baby to a toddler to a child and beyond. Their experiences are so vastly different from a genetic males that I can't even begin to imagine it. I'll never have a "sweet sixteen" party, never hit (true) puberty and see my body develop from a childs to a womans, never get my first period, etc. My past is uniquely mine, I can't change it, I can't relive it, and there's no point in denying that it happened. My past helped mold and shape me into the unique individual I am today, and I feel that I would be a completely different person had I been born genetically female. I don't understand why some (or maybe all) therapists tell you to "pretend" you were born male/female and say things like "when I was a little girl..."
Isn't transition about being real and honest and being who you really are? How does denying your past, sometimes nearly a lifetime of a past, and then LYING to everyone about it (lying to yourself to boot) help you to "become" who you really are? And does this mean that if I meet a boy or girl and bring them home, my parents have to hide or throw out all my baby pics and other photos of me that show plainly that I was a little boy/young man as I grew? Sure, there was a girl inside all along, but still. Does that mean I have to convince my whole family to lie for me too, saying "when she was a little girl, such and such happened to her..." That to me seems counterproductive to what the therapy is supposed to accomplish.

I know many gay and lesbian people and they all seem to know pretty accurately what a trans person is, and how to treat one. They know there's a difference between a cross-dresser and a transgendered person, or a drag queen and a trans person for that matter. I don't know what sort of GLB people others have dealt with, but it must be in a really really tiny town where nothing at all ever happens.

I actually think that in a small way I am fortunate to be trans. I will appreciate my femininity more than a genetic female will. I have a unique road ahead that no other genetic female will ever travel, and to me the rewards at the end make it all worth while. I also think that this gives me a unique opportunity to open the eyes of people around me, and teach them something about humanity that they may not have otherwise known. Learning once and for all who and what I am has made me excited for the future in a way I never imagined. I think people need to stop looking at the cup as half empty. Stop concentrating on the negative and don't play the victim and wait for someone to fix things for you. There is nobody to blame for being trans anyway. It happened. Deal with it. Overcome it. Make it yours.

Quote from: trnsboi on July 15, 2010, 08:37:06 PM
"The T is the tie that binds.  Not that many want to admit it.  Transgender is about crossing socially acceptable gender lines.  An effeminate gay man has crossed that line as has a butch lesbian."

Thanks, Julie! I think this pretty much sums it up.

There is a difference however, an effeminate man is still a man, his responses while tempered with his personality will be male, he will react male, and pretty much still be male.  A woman which has trans sexuality was never a man to start with her responses are the work of a feminized brain in conflict with a masculine body.  Her responses will be feminine but then must be hidden, filtered, then made fictional until such time as she transitions. 

Women and men think differently and react differently to things around them.  Even a butch woman is still a woman and while she may not show her outside feminine qualities, when she is alone or with close friends they may come out.  Women like to talk, men like to do, in terms of communication.  A well placed fist for a man can say more then talking ever will, and even make friendships.

Okay, so I just have to ask this...

Are gays upset about being identified (labeled) as gay because they are effeminite?

Are lesbians upset about being identified (labeled) lesbian because they dress masculinely?

Are any L or G people upset about being discriminated against because they have been labeled G or L because they crossed gender lines?

What is the long term advantage to denying L's and G's cross gender lines (and are therefore trans gender) is the better way to go in achieving equal rights and ending discrimination?

Just curious.

Quote from: Alyssa M. on July 15, 2010, 09:25:49 PM
That is just wrong. The most manly and masculine and butch and macho gay men and the most girly and feminine and dainty and ladylike lesbian women transgress one of the most strongly-defended gender norms in this society. Moreover, the revulsion that many people feel toward transgendered people (of all varieties) is strongly tied up in that same norm. It's about sex.


Again, no reason for GLB to be part of T unless they can actually mutually accept each other, which of course doesn't always happen, as many of us have seen.

Chrissi


Then start bloody well accepting already, if that's how you feel. But the fact that some group (read: every group) has haters and in-fighters doesn't mean the group should split up; it means the haters and infighters need to get over themselves and learn to behave.

By your logic, LG should ditch B, and L and G should split up too. Also, gay professionals should should split up with the Castro Street crowd, and radical urban dykes should split up with suburban lesbian moms. In fact, no group of people suffering from similar forms of oppression should ever bother to try to unite.

It's a recipe for failure.

You are going to extremes here without seeing a bigger picture.  In schools everyone knows what gay is, everyone knows what Lesbian is, if LGBT are all so well represented how come no one knows the truth behind being TS.  Ask a high school kid or anyone on the street they will most likely call us drag queens or cross dressers.  You would think they would know a little about us from being in such a large organization, but they dont.  While LGBT communities are good for supporting individuals they dont seem to do much other then push the agendas close to them, what about TS agenda's? when will that start getting pushed...?  Do you honestly believe that after LGB get all their rights and benefits, they will continue the fight for T as well? 

I do believe that we should work together as separate groups because the structure is not their to pull our issues to the for front.  A lot of people just want TS to be labeled a birth defect so that insurance and getting documents changed will be easier.  Do you think winning gay marriage will at all make it easier for me to change my sex on federal and state documents? honestly do you?

That combined with the fact that not every LGB community receives T well.  Some wanting nothing to do with them or calling them posers who cannot accept they are gay or lesbian. 

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Post Merge: July 16, 2010, 07:50:54 PM

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Quote from: Miniar on July 16, 2010, 09:44:54 AM
...

You mentioned quite a few things but really didnt get closer to either end.  In your country they have laws that say you can teach people about what it means to be TS, but we dont even know what TS is really.  Is it genetic? a birth defect? what if i have it? what should i do?  etc... etc.. but thats beside the point, laws here are not the same, we dont have the same programs and in your country the LGBT community as a whole can get things done, in mine they seem to only worry about LGB issues and while thats all well and good... T gets left behind, the reason we cannot work on our own agenda is because we have to use our time working on theirs....  There is just so hard i can fight for gay marriage, i would rather make SRS type surgeries easier to get, get one free easy state/federal document sex change, and in general more funding finding out exactly what i have and how we get it, so that we have another tool that says look its not a choice its something your born with, see look here are the facts....

Also what if what you want is the heteronorm, many TS people just want to change their sex and live like hetero people do, a lot are stealth, being a visible part in LGB makes them instantly associated with ideas of things they are not.  Being T in the LGB sandwich makes me feel like the person that gets last for a team on dodge ball, somehow the other members shine while I get slammed in the face with the ball thrown by the kid on steroids. 

All those things you mentioned you could not do is quite possible with advances in technology it might even be in the past that we dont need human bodies at all and have bio-mechanical ones that are much better.  There might be a time where your mind is free to experience anything and everything you want, you never know with advances in technology.

I don't see what the problem is: we often work as separate groups already. There are lesbian advocacy groups and gay men's advocacy groups and bisexual advocacy groups and trans advocacy groups. And there are LGBT advocacy groups. It's not either/or.

Now, I don't think your average high school cretin is the standard we should use to gauge public understanding of LGBT issues. They'll always give you the response they think you'll least want to hear. But frankly, I think you are both overestimating the mainstream understanding of G, L, and B, and underestimating the mainstream misunderstanding of T.

As for T support by LGB? Well, sure some individuals or groups suck at it (Barney Frank; HRC) just as some T groups suck at LGB support (HBS/WBT, etc.). But at my university, practically all the advocacy done by LGBT groups goes toward T causes  -- gender-neutral bathrooms, campus non-discrimination policy, university name-change issues, access to medical care at the student health center, etc -- and practically all the T advocacy comes from LGBT groups, not T-specific groups. Not only do I believe that the LGB, having gained some meaningful measure of protection of their rights, will continue to fight for the T; I see it happening right now.

And here's the bigger picture: When we define ourselves defensively, that is, in reaction to the misperceptions of the privileged, we lose the argument from the very beginning because we cede the right to define the grounds of the argument, when the whole problem is the grounds, the ability for mainstream culture to dehumanize certain people by defining them as "other."

As you say, "not every LGB community receives T well." Well, no kidding. Not every T community receives LBG well. Not every ABC group receives XYZ well. That's no reason to quit; that's reason to get the morons in ABC to extract their crania from the crushing pressure of their sphincter muscles. The question is, what's their problem? Why can't they be more accepting of other oppressed and marginalized groups?

The answer: They are buying into the oppression that they are trying to escape. Most likely, they are afraid of what the oppressors, the privileged, the "normal people" might think: they are afraid of guilt by association. And that's usually because they feel guilty about their identity, having internalized some of the normative ideologies and carved out a special exception -- "We're just like straight people, except we just happen to prefer romantic partners of the opposite gender of what you expected," or "We're just like cis people, except we happen to have this birth condition in which our brain is matched to the opposite gender of what you expected."

I didn't happen to be anything. I am. And if someone thinks I'm some kind of pansy or ->-bleeped-<-got or whatever because I'm hanging around with a femmy gay guy, then they can go to hell. And I'll tell them so. And anyway, my case isn't strengthened by keeping away. That would just make me seem weak and afraid.

As it is now, many LGBT groups recognize that the T is the element that unites them all. Let's not let perfection be the enemy of good.

I'm in this for the long haul: until my identity isn't questioned nor my humanity doubted regardless of whom I choose stand beside, I am not free, and neither are you. That is the big picture.

"There is a difference however, an effeminate man is still a man, his responses while tempered with his personality will be male, he will react male, and pretty much still be male.  A woman which has trans sexuality was never a man to start with her responses are the work of a feminized brain in conflict with a masculine body.  Her responses will be feminine but then must be hidden, filtered, then made fictional until such time as she transitions.

Women and men think differently and react differently to things around them."


Woah that is a HUGE generalization. First of all, how are you defining male and female, masculine and feminine? You can't. There is way too much variation among people to categorize them as such.  The whole reason men are labeled "effeminate" and women labeled "butch" is because they defy gender stereotypes--effeminate males do not, in your words, "react male." They act in a manner that our culture deems "feminine."

Simply awesome précis of the problem and the solution there Alyssa.

Kat give you a well deserved golf clap.

It's too bad that labels tend to tear communities apart. 

I wish GLBT could rebrand as the "Gender Freedom Coalition" or something like that.

Quote from: Izumi on July 16, 2010, 07:30:03 PMYou mentioned quite a few things but really didnt get closer to either end.  In your country they have laws that say you can teach people about what it means to be TS, but we dont even know what TS is really.  Is it genetic? a birth defect? what if i have it? what should i do?  etc... etc.. but thats beside the point, laws here are not the same, we dont have the same programs and in your country the LGBT community as a whole can get things done, in mine they seem to only worry about LGB issues and while thats all well and good... T gets left behind, the reason we cannot work on our own agenda is because we have to use our time working on theirs....  There is just so hard i can fight for gay marriage, i would rather make SRS type surgeries easier to get, get one free easy state/federal document sex change, and in general more funding finding out exactly what i have and how we get it, so that we have another tool that says look its not a choice its something your born with, see look here are the facts....

Also what if what you want is the heteronorm, many TS people just want to change their sex and live like hetero people do, a lot are stealth, being a visible part in LGB makes them instantly associated with ideas of things they are not.  Being T in the LGB sandwich makes me feel like the person that gets last for a team on dodge ball, somehow the other members shine while I get slammed in the face with the ball thrown by the kid on steroids. 

All those things you mentioned you could not do is quite possible with advances in technology it might even be in the past that we dont need human bodies at all and have bio-mechanical ones that are much better.  There might be a time where your mind is free to experience anything and everything you want, you never know with advances in technology.

I can not re-write the past. Advances in any field of technology will not change that.
Not in my lifetime either.

You aren't legally prohibited from telling people about being transsexual.
You aren't legally prohibited from teaching other people about your personal experience.

I consider transsexualism, at least for me, to be a matter of a body brain mismatch. I consider myself to have a male-gendered brain in a female based body. I explain, when I talk to a person, that not everyone has the same idea of what/why it is.

You aren't forced to devote your time to fighting for same sex marriage. You can choose to address other issues, within and outside of the glbt setting.

LGBT are all members of one group because they are all trying to change what it means to be a particular gender.   The vary narrow stereo typical man was born with a penis, is attracted to women, and presents himself in a manly manner.   The very narrow stereo typical women was born with a vagina, is physically attracted to men, and presents herself as effeminate.    Members of the LGBT community do not fit these stereo types and according to very those who defend these stereo types can never fit into these communities.   Bathrooms can be shared bathrooms or just for stereotypical women or stereotypical men.

Fortunately for mankind human communities never fit these plutonic stereotypes.    But there has been different amounts of social pressure to live like we do while we are in public.    The LGBT communities around the world have suffered much to get rid of the laws that enforce conformity to that stereo type.    According to this stereo type, I as a MtoF transgender can never be a real female no matter how much I changed my body and mannerisms.    At some time in all of my relationships in order not to offend someone, I would have to disclose that I had been born male.

None of us will ever have true freedom until transgenders of every kind have total social acceptance and freedom.    These are not special freedoms for a special group but freedoms for all genders.   



Anyway this is just what I think and how I feel.

I haven't been here in a very long time, and I haven't read the entire thread, but I have yet to be treated as anything other than another lesbian by lesbian women.  Maybe someday my bubble will be popped.
So, my personal take on this is, transsexuals are part of the queer community in general.

Quote from: Miss Bev on July 18, 2010, 05:27:19 PM
I haven't been here in a very long time, and I haven't read the entire thread, but I have yet to be treated as anything other than another lesbian by lesbian women.  Maybe someday my bubble will be popped.
So, my personal take on this is, transsexuals are part of the queer community in general.

But i am straight~

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Post Merge: July 19, 2010, 12:44:23 PM

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Quote from: michelle on July 18, 2010, 01:45:59 PM
LGBT are all members of one group because they are all trying to change what it means to be a particular gender.   The vary narrow stereo typical man was born with a penis, is attracted to women, and presents himself in a manly manner.   The very narrow stereo typical women was born with a vagina, is physically attracted to men, and presents herself as effeminate.    Members of the LGBT community do not fit these stereo types and according to very those who defend these stereo types can never fit into these communities.   Bathrooms can be shared bathrooms or just for stereotypical women or stereotypical men.

Fortunately for mankind human communities never fit these plutonic stereotypes.    But there has been different amounts of social pressure to live like we do while we are in public.    The LGBT communities around the world have suffered much to get rid of the laws that enforce conformity to that stereo type.    According to this stereo type, I as a MtoF transgender can never be a real female no matter how much I changed my body and mannerisms.    At some time in all of my relationships in order not to offend someone, I would have to disclose that I had been born male.

None of us will ever have true freedom until transgenders of every kind have total social acceptance and freedom.    These are not special freedoms for a special group but freedoms for all genders.   



Anyway this is just what I think and how I feel.

Well thats not entirely true, i have seen a woman go totally stealth get married and is still married for 10 years and her husband has no clue.  She transitioned at 16.  She destroyed all her old documents and had a very small paper trail to start with, and since all her documents were changed really early in life, not many people know she is TS. 

Quote from: Izumi on July 19, 2010, 12:40:01 PM
But i am straight~

But the same guy who wants to beat us for being gay asumes you are also gay. Truth of the matter is irelevant. The same guy that wants to kill queers wants to kill you.
They see transwomen like us as the ultimate expression of homosexuality. Even when faced with someone like me who much prefers sex with females in spite of being MTF.
They hate us all for the same reasons, that is enough reason to stand with someone who may not be the person you would normaly like to be associated with.
It doesn't matter what we think or know or believe true about ourselves, we share an enemy with the LGB crowd.

Quote from: Miniar on July 17, 2010, 02:12:07 PM
I can not re-write the past. Advances in any field of technology will not change that.
Not in my lifetime either.

You aren't legally prohibited from telling people about being transsexual.
You aren't legally prohibited from teaching other people about your personal experience.

I consider transsexualism, at least for me, to be a matter of a body brain mismatch. I consider myself to have a male-gendered brain in a female based body. I explain, when I talk to a person, that not everyone has the same idea of what/why it is.

You aren't forced to devote your time to fighting for same sex marriage. You can choose to address other issues, within and outside of the glbt setting.

Well, i just hope everyone still sticks around to help us after they helped themselves. 

I dont know, I just dont see myself fitting in to the LGBT, I am not lesbian, i am not gay, defiantly not bi.  I am a straight woman born with trans sexuality, which i just see is a disorder.  Everyone else identifies as Lesbian, Gay, or Bi, and even Trans, but personally i hate the term TRANS SEXUAL.  It paints with a broad brush and categorizes every Woman and Man living with Transexuality as a TRANS SEXUAL and not a man or woman.  TS implies neither one or the other, between both.  I hate that.... 

Its like someone having leprosy and calling them a leper, i dont think that nice, and implies that your less then human in some way...  So that also a reason that i hate T in LGBT because now T = Trans and all of us are now Trans to the public, not women or men, just Trans... i hate that.  How come I is not up there also? dont intersex people also need rights?  It seems strange that T is up there but no I.... Are intersex people treated with the same stigma as we are? or do we get it more because we are more visible?

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Quote from: cynthialee on July 19, 2010, 12:45:18 PM
But the same guy who wants to beat us for being gay asumes you are also gay. Truth of the matter is irelevant. The same guy that wants to kill queers wants to kill you.
They see transwomen like us as the ultimate expression of homosexuality. Even when faced with someone like me who much prefers sex with females in spite of being MTF.
They hate us all for the same reasons, that is enough reason to stand with someone who may not be the person you would normaly like to be associated with.
It doesn't matter what we think or know or believe true about ourselves, we share an enemy with the LGB crowd.

So just because someone attacks me its a hate crime? what if they dont know, they just see another woman, and target me because of that hoping to steal my purse and mug me.  There are always people who hate other people, all we need to be is different, another religion, weaker then them, etc... Laws are already in place to protect people from that.  If someone attacks me, regardless of what i am, they get in trouble.  Why should the punishment be more or less just because i am someone with TS?  All crimes are hate crimes.  Most likely "Hate" groups want to beat anyone up is because their lives are so crappy they want someone to blame for their sad state.  Even if there was no such thing as LGBT in the world, someone would find something to kill another person over, its in our nature, and when we cant think of anything, we just make stuff up to fight about that isnt even tangible.

LGBT folks have been targets of hatred long before any orginization of said individules.
I understand you are past the trans thing. Cool, but you have to keep in mind there are people who will hold your medical history against you should they find out. And trust me some one somewhere WILL find out. And if they decide to out you there is little you can do to prevent that. You can be over being trans, there are idiots who refuse to get over it when they find out. So that makes you a potential victim.

Personaly I do not like that we are tied togather with the LGBT. Being trans is not a sexual orientation. But I understand that there are those who lump us in one category and opress us equaly. That opression has nothing to do with anything we have done. It is all bassed on what we are. But as we are opresed as a group we must stand as a group. We can break up into factions and focus groups after we get equality.

Quote from: cynthialee on July 19, 2010, 01:33:03 PM
LGBT folks have been targets of hatred long before any orginization of said individules.
I understand you are past the trans thing. Cool, but you have to keep in mind there are people who will hold your medical history against you should they find out. And trust me some one somewhere WILL find out. And if they decide to out you there is little you can do to prevent that. You can be over being trans, there are idiots who refuse to get over it when they find out. So that makes you a potential victim.

Personaly I do not like that we are tied togather with the LGBT. Being trans is not a sexual orientation. But I understand that there are those who lump us in one category and opress us equaly. That opression has nothing to do with anything we have done. It is all bassed on what we are. But as we are opresed as a group we must stand as a group. We can break up into factions and focus groups after we get equality.

Ok, but that doesnt answer my question on why Intersex isnt up there.  Shouldnt it be LGBTI? or does the T imply I?  I dont see as much on intersex being hated as much as we are? why is that? Is it because everyone assumes its a medical condition they are born with and cannot help the way they were born? isnt TS the same?

actually many LGBT local groups are LGBTIQQA
I will let you puzzle that one for yourself. :)

It's a historical thing: historically intersex people haven't made themselves a major part of the community (whereas trans people have been present and visible from the beginning of the gay rights movement). There's been some movement toward intersex inclusion (LGBTQQI is the current state of the full acronym), and there's some LGBT community activism on behalf of intersex children's right to bodily integrity, but on the whole there are just fewer ties.

If intersex groups made themselves a major visible fixture at things like Pride celebrations or queer youth centers, or otherwise became more intertwined with the other aspects of queer community and culture in the way that trans rights groups have, then it wouldn't seem quite so rude and paternalistic to tack the "I" on the end.

Quote from: Izumi on July 19, 2010, 12:55:54 PM
Its like someone having leprosy and calling them a leper, i dont think that nice, and implies that your less then human in some way...  So that also a reason that i hate T in LGBT because now T = Trans and all of us are now Trans to the public, not women or men, just Trans... i hate that.

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Why is calling a human being a "leper" any worse than calling a human being a "woman" or calling a human being "white" or calling a human being "tall"? I don't see why "trans" is any worse than any other label we give to people.

Quote from: trnsboi on July 19, 2010, 03:02:20 PM
Why is calling a human being a "leper" any worse than calling a human being a "woman" or calling a human being "white" or calling a human being "tall"? I don't see why "trans" is any worse than any other label we give to people.

Because being called a woman or man or white or anything else doesnt denote a tone that your less then human, but leper and trans does.

Quote from: Izumi on July 19, 2010, 12:55:54 PM

So just because someone attacks me its a hate crime? what if they dont know, they just see another woman, and target me because of that hoping to steal my purse and mug me.  There are always people who hate other people, all we need to be is different, another religion, weaker then them, etc... Laws are already in place to protect people from that.  If someone attacks me, regardless of what i am, they get in trouble.  Why should the punishment be more or less just because i am someone with TS?  All crimes are hate crimes.

*Not all crimes are hate crimes!* Hate crimes are crimes that are committed against a person because they are a member of a certain group (trans, black, Asian, disabled, etc.) If someone beats me up because I am trans, it is much different than if someone beats me up because they want my wallet or because I cut them off in traffic. In the former case, I am being beat up because of who I am, not because of what I have or what I did. If a guy goes and murders another man for sleeping with his wife, he is doing it out of hatred, yes, but it is hatred towards a specific person for a specific act. If someone murders me because I am trans, they are liable to murder *any* person  who is trans; in other words, they are a threat to an entire group of people, not just one person. It can be said that hate crimes are crimes against groups of people, not just the individual victim.

It is possible that someone may beat you up just because they want to steal your purse and not because you are trans, but the fact of the matter is that trans people stand a MUCH higher risk of being murdered or assaulted than the general population. In fact, one in every eleven MTFs are murdered. One in eleven! That is a huge number, and in fact it constitutes a genocide by UN standards. You can read about it here: http://trans.ilga.org/trans/welcome_to_the_ilga_trans_secretariat/trans_zone/notes/transgender_and_transsexual_identities_the_next_strange_fruit_hate_crimes_violence_and_genocide_against_the_global_trans_communities (http://trans.ilga.org/trans/welcome_to_the_ilga_trans_secretariat/trans_zone/notes/transgender_and_transsexual_identities_the_next_strange_fruit_hate_crimes_violence_and_genocide_against_the_global_trans_communities)

The reason that there is a much higher murder rate for MTFs than FTMs is the same reason gay men are more likely to be targeted than lesbians: because of misogyny, and this is exactly why there is a "T" in LGBT. The majority of people who murder gay men and transwomen do it because they are misogynist males ie: they see other "men" acting "effeminately," it challenges their own gender identities, it challenges the patriarchal structure of society, and they solve the problem by assaulting and murdering the "offenders." Of course, transmen and lesbians are targeted, but not to the same degree as MTFs and gay men. So what I am trying to say is that homophobia and transphobia share a common denominator which is sexism, and this is precisely why the "T" is in LGBT, and it is precisely why we need to challenge the gender binary. Without the myth of binary gender there can be no "trans" no "gay" no "other."

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Quote from: Izumi on July 19, 2010, 03:13:27 PM
Because being called a woman or man or white or anything else doesnt denote a tone that your less then human, but leper and trans does.

I beg to differ. In a patriarchal society being a "woman" does denote being less than human, the same as being "black" denotes being less than human in a racist society.

Quote from: trnsboi on July 19, 2010, 03:32:22 PM

...

and

I beg to differ. In a patriarchal society being a "woman" does denote being less than human, the same as being "black" denotes being less than human in a racist society.

Ok so labeling something a hate crime does what? give a harsher punishment, is that deterrent enough? I dont think so, whether someone kills me for my money or my being TS, dead is dead.  The end result might mean they get more time in jail or even the death penalty, but that doesnt change the fact i am no more.  A crime is a crime regardless.  There will always be people who hate in society and lash out at everything that isnt them, heck they even fight within their own organizations, how will you deal with these people? no matter what you do they wont go away unless you kill them all, but in doing so , you become just like them... paradox for you.  There are people in this world that want you to die, they dont want anything else, they cannot be reasoned with or appeased.  They will only be happy when you are no more, thats just the sad fact of life, and no law is going to deter them. 

And about that woman thing, yup you got me, you are correct, women were denoted at such historically and in some cultures around the world, but what about men? In today's modern society that is not the case however.  Woman and man share equality under the law and both are viewed as fully human, so yeah, in the past maybe, but now no, except for a few places in the world.

Quote from: Izumi on July 19, 2010, 03:52:41 PM
And about that woman thing, yup you got me, you are correct, women were denoted at such historically and in some cultures around the world, but what about men? In today's modern society that is not the case however.  Woman and man share equality under the law and both are viewed as fully human, so yeah, in the past maybe, but now no, except for a few places in the world.

First of all, what "few places in the world" are you referring to? And furthermore, do you think that women were at once seen as inferior and then society just all of a sudden made a complete 180? Women may have equal protection under the law (which is still not entirely true--why do you think the ERA never passed?) but they do not have the same privileges. Men can walk down the street without worrying about getting raped. Men, especially straight men, stand very little chance of being battered by a partner. On average, men still get paid more than women for doing the same work (yes, this is true in 2010 in the United States). Men are in control of the world's resources and methods of production and own 90% of the world's property. You can believe what you want, but the truth of the matter is that women are by no means seen as men's equals even in the modern Western world.

If I'm not mistaken, I believe the T in LGBT does not stand for Transsexual, but Transgender; which is an umbrella term that includes transsexuals, intersex, androgynous, cross-dressers, and even drags... anyone who "crosses established gender boundaries" are lumped into the term.

And it's true that women, even today, are not seen or treated as true equals even here in the Western world where we like to think we are so superior and civilized.

By the way Izumi, you look beautiful in your ava pic =]

~April

Quote from: Izumi on July 19, 2010, 03:52:41 PM
Ok so labeling something a hate crime does what? give a harsher punishment, is that deterrent enough? I dont think so, whether someone kills me for my money or my being TS, dead is dead.  The end result might mean they get more time in jail or even the death penalty, but that doesnt change the fact i am no more.  A crime is a crime regardless. 

The issue here is that you are seeing the murder of a trans person as a personal problem when in fact it is a societal problem. I'm not sure about you, but if someone were to murder me because I am trans I would want everyone to *know* that it was because I was trans. It is called consciousness-raising. And that is why we have hate crimes laws, because whenever a hate crime is committed the authorities need to report it as a hate crime. It gives us an idea of what the problem is, how big the problem is, who is committing the crimes, and it helps us to figure out ways to ameliorate the problem.

Quote from: trnsboi on July 19, 2010, 04:47:16 PM
First of all, what "few places in the world" are you referring to? And furthermore, do you think that women were at once seen as inferior and then society just all of a sudden made a complete 180? Women may have equal protection under the law (which is still not entirely true--why do you think the ERA never passed?) but they do not have the same privileges. Men can walk down the street without worrying about getting raped. Men, especially straight men, stand very little chance of being battered by a partner. On average, men still get paid more than women for doing the same work (yes, this is true in 2010 in the United States). Men are in control of the world's resources and methods of production and own 90% of the world's property. You can believe what you want, but the truth of the matter is that women are by no means seen as men's equals even in the modern Western world.

Yes its true, but there are also women CEO whether they make more or less money its irrelevant.  Has anyone really worked out why women make less? Is it because they are willing to accept less then men? If a job pays 15/hour but the woman accepts 13/hour and a man says, no i am worth 15, they will give the job to the woman wont they?  So how many women are employed vs men? These figures from the 2009 state the following:

Women comprised 46.8 percent of the total U.S. labor force
The largest percentage of employed women (40 percent) worked in management, professional, and related occupations;

The unemployment rate for all women was 8.1 percent and 10.3 percent for men in 2009, so are they employed more because they are willing to work for less or simply accept less? 

Also take this into account:

"Men have been disproportionately hurt," the Financial Times explains, "because they dominate those industries that have been crushed: nine in every 10 construction workers are male, as are seven in every 10 manufacturing workers. These two sectors alone have lost almost 2.5 million jobs. Women, in contrast, tend to hold more cyclically stable jobs and make up 75% of the most insulated sectors of all: education and health care."

I just want to point out, it maybe the case when someone at an interview says, how much do you want for a job, that the woman gives a lower salary then the man, and that may be why there is a gap.  So if women want more money they have to be more firm in terms of the salary they will accept, but in turn those that get paid the least, but work just as good keep their jobs in recession and those that get paid the most are let go.

As for being attacked, a wimpy look man can get attacked just as much as a woman, you think a built 6'5" woman walking down the street would be the target of an attack or just some average looking guy?  You get attacked if you appear weak, its just that society portrays being thin and undernourished for women as a good thing.... As for rape, yes, i have to agree, women will be the main targets, its just something you accept if your a woman, and it isnt equal, its just reality, there really isnt anything anyone can do about it, but carry some kind of protection on your person like pepper spray, or even a weapon.  There are ways to minimize the risks.  As an MTF i accept the fact i cannot do the same things i used to.  I cant go out at night alone anymore for a jog, it sucks, but there is no amount of equality laws going to prevent someone from attacking you.

Even though in some areas of the world women dont have the freedoms we have here in the US.  I dont feel less equal.  I can follow my dreams just like anyone else, if i dont make as much as a man its because i settled for less, but if i can live a nice life with that amount it really doesnt bother me, and i dont really know what the top range to be offered was anyway.

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Quote from: trnsboi on July 19, 2010, 05:22:10 PM
The issue here is that you are seeing the murder of a trans person as a personal problem when in fact it is a societal problem. I'm not sure about you, but if someone were to murder me because I am trans I would want everyone to *know* that it was because I was trans. It is called consciousness-raising. And that is why we have hate crimes laws, because whenever a hate crime is committed the authorities need to report it as a hate crime. It gives us an idea of what the problem is, how big the problem is, who is committing the crimes, and it helps us to figure out ways to ameliorate the problem.

We already know who is committing the crimes, the profiles exist, its the same people that hate everyone else, but thats great, when i die, they wont remember me as the woman i am, they will just remember me as another Trans death statistic.  What a wonderful thought, my life has such a meaning that the content of my life and all its accomplishments are trumped by being TS.... 

When someone picks up the paper, they will read oh, another trans woman was killed, the LGBT community will be appalled and feel sentiment however everyone else who picks up a newspaper gets a flash in their heads of another dead cross dresser with gender issues.  It makes me seem less then human, and i hate it, I hate the term TS.  I am a woman with TS, not a TS Woman.   

Sorry its something that bothers me, i dont mean to sound hostile.... that was not my intent.

QuoteWoman and man share equality under the law

Not in the United States.  The equal rights amendment did not pass.  The Supreme Court said that there are real differences between men and women, and that diiscrimination regarding women is permittted under the Constitution as amended, as long as it is tied to those real differences.  The only clasifications that get the "strict scrutiny" review are race, religion, and national origin.  Sex and gender get the shaft.

"As for rape, yes, i have to agree, women will be the main targets, its just something you accept if your a woman, and it isnt equal, its just reality, there really isnt anything anyone can do about it, but carry some kind of protection on your person like pepper spray, or even a weapon.  There are ways to minimize the risks.  As an MTF i accept the fact i cannot do the same things i used to.  I cant go out at night alone anymore for a jog, it sucks, but there is no amount of equality laws going to prevent someone from attacking you."

Are you serious? That is so misogynistic saying that rape is just "something you have to accept if your [sic] a woman." I am not talking about laws, I am talking about privilege. Women don't get raped just because. They get raped because we live in a society that portrays women as inferior to men, objects that were put on earth for men's sexual pleasure. It is a social problem. In pre-Columbian Native American societies rape was almost unheard of. Why? Because women were regarded as equals. Even when white women were taken as captives by Natives they were hardly ever raped. Rape doesn't happen because of some natural male need to rape, it happens because of misogyny.

And no, wimpy men are not likely to get battered by their female partners. The vast majority of domestic violence is male-on-female.

And what you were saying about salaries was not true. Men are more likely to get promotions than women and they are more likely to get hired in the first place. They've done studies where they've sent out identical resumes to companies that were hiring, except that half of the resumes had a male name and half had a female name, and guess what? The resumes that had the male name got more replies. My mother has been suing her ex employers for the past three years in a gender discrimination suit, and she has very good evidence. I can send you the news articles if you want, it is very disturbing. Discrimination against women is a very real problem.

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Post Merge: July 19, 2010, 04:03:54 PM

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"We already know who is committing the crimes, the profiles exist, its the same people that hate everyone else."

Wrong again. The people who kill trans people are insecure males so yes, a profile exists, but they are not going around killing other groups of people at the same rate they are killing trans people (trans women in particular). The current cis-on-trans murder rate is higher than the white-on-black murder rate, higher than the Christian-on-Jew murder rate, higher than any other majority-on-minority murder rate.

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Post Merge: July 19, 2010, 06:11:25 PM

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"When someone picks up the paper, they will read oh, another trans woman was killed, the LGBT community will be appalled and feel sentiment however everyone else who picks up a newspaper gets a flash in their heads of another dead cross dresser with gender issues.  It makes me seem less then human, and i hate it, I hate the term TS.  I am a woman with TS, not a TS Woman."


Yup, it's a sad reality. But as long as we keep buying into the myth that gender is biological and binary, people are going to keep accepting only two categories of people: men and women. And they will continue to believe that one's membership in either category is based entirely on the genitals one was born with, meaning that trans people will be seen as "other" or, as you said, "not fully human." That is why I am so dedicated to eradicating the binary.

Quote from: Izumi on July 19, 2010, 12:55:54 PM
Well, i just hope everyone still sticks around to help us after they helped themselves. 

I dont know, I just dont see myself fitting in to the LGBT, I am not lesbian, i am not gay, defiantly not bi.  I am a straight woman born with trans sexuality, which i just see is a disorder.  Everyone else identifies as Lesbian, Gay, or Bi, and even Trans, but personally i hate the term TRANS SEXUAL.  It paints with a broad brush and categorizes every Woman and Man living with Transexuality as a TRANS SEXUAL and not a man or woman.  TS implies neither one or the other, between both.  I hate that.... 

Its like someone having leprosy and calling them a leper, i dont think that nice, and implies that your less then human in some way...  So that also a reason that i hate T in LGBT because now T = Trans and all of us are now Trans to the public, not women or men, just Trans... i hate that.  How come I is not up there also? dont intersex people also need rights?  It seems strange that T is up there but no I.... Are intersex people treated with the same stigma as we are? or do we get it more because we are more visible?

Sometimes the acronym is "LGBTQI"

I do not think that the term transsexual "means" you are not a man nor a woman.
I do not think that the term trans takes away from the fact that we're just as human as everyone else.

These are not innate functions of these words, nor found in the meaning of these words.

Labels are merely terms to describe varying aspects of the whole.
Being Trans doesn't make that all you are.
Treating the word as if it somehow robs you of something is a little strange at best.

The problem isn't the word.
The problem isn't that we are "transsexuals".
The problem is the individuals outside the transgender community as a whole who do not know nor understand anything about us.
By continuing to treat the word the same way as they do, we are perpetuating the problem.

We can rant and rave about how the GLB don't and thus we shouldn't be with them, but you know what, if we can't even be active enough in our own cause to teach our allies about us, then how are we going to teach the world?

A lot of the groups are LGBTQI (Q for queer I guess, makes no sense to me)

I've always seen intersex as a separate issue, being that it is a physical, medically diagnosed condition and (at least in theory) cannot be seen as a "choice" by the nutjob religious right groups.

I COMPLETELY AGREE!

I think at least part of the reason intersex are included is due to pure ignorance by people in the general public. They view intersex, trans, CD's, TV, and even drags as essentially the same thing... freaks. It sucks, but that's the truth. They really do not see any difference. I have known several small-minded ignorant people who don't know the difference between the types of people I listed and aren't even slightly interested in hearing about those differences. To them we are all freaks, and that's that; and bottom line, they don't even CARE about how or why.

It may all seem like common knowledge from our point of view, but that is because we are on the inside of this world. They are on the outside, living in complete oblivion, unaware of any of it because it has no direct impact on their daily lives. We LIVE this every day. They do not. They hear about this stuff mostly in bad porn and on jerry springer, and therefore have a warped view of what our world is like.

Until our people are portrayed in a positive light in the media, and more is done publicly to shed light on who we really are, their view of us is likely not to change any time soon.

Quote from: Miniar on July 19, 2010, 06:44:49 PM
We can rant and rave about how the GLB don't and thus we shouldn't be with them, but you know what, if we can't even be active enough in our own cause to teach our allies about us, then how are we going to teach the world?

Well many reasons really, one is that we are divided as well.  When it comes to treatment some of us feel its better to have TS be medical in nature like intersex, i am one of those people, it would be a birth defect then in medicine.  Some TS dont like being called defective and fight that, with a lot of infighting sometimes nothing really gets done.

In the mean time i teach the world in my own way, through one on one interaction.  Its true i am stealth right now for many reasons, one of which is my fiance who i dont want to see hurt for any reason because of what i have to live with.  Even though  I live this way I do have an effect on people, for the people who know my past they cant believe how well I can be a woman to the point where my friend for 10 years asked me "How do you act like a girl so well, its amazing", to which i just replied, "I just stopped acting like a guy and started living as myself, this isnt the act, my life before was".

Everyone who has remained friends with me from my past sees that this is the way I really work and in so doing get a better understanding of what it means to be TS.  For the people that dont know me from my past I am just like any other woman, on occasion someone finds out and confronts me, i dont deny it, i just state i am the same person you were friends with all those years, does it matter? Have i ever made you think i was anything but what i am before you?  A lot of times they are amazed, and in so also get a better understanding (havent lost a friend yet ^_^b). 

Most of all even if they dont know your TS you can be the voice of reason whenever topics come up dealing with TS issues or even LGB issues.  When topics among friends are just spinning around in rumor and i heard this and i heard that... you can provide facts and stability.  If they ask why you know so much typically I say I wrote a paper in college ^_^b (which i did by the way).

So even without being visible you can alter people's perception one at a time and that has ripples that catch other people and so on and so on.

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Quote from: Ghost on the Highway on July 19, 2010, 08:30:07 PM
A lot of the groups are LGBTQI (Q for queer I guess, makes no sense to me)

I've always seen intersex as a separate issue, being that it is a physical, medically diagnosed condition and (at least in theory) cannot be seen as a "choice" by the nutjob religious right groups.

Research has been ongoing but points to an emerging trend which denotes that trans sexuality is also a medical condition like intersex caused by genetics and androgen receptors causing hormones to not bind properly to cells preventing a fetus from fully masculinizing or feminizing during gestation.

Izumi, you keep complaining how the LGB don't accept you. The more I read your posts, the more I get the impression that the real issue is that you don't much care for LGB folk. Are you afraid someone might mistake you for a lesbian? Why should you care if they do?

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GOTH, the largest form of "the acronym" I have seen so far is LGBTQQIAA, where the Q's are "queer" and "questioning" and the A's are "asexual" and "ally." Why doesn't "queer" make sense?

Perhaps an example would help: I know a woman who tends to fit in much better with men, but is happy with her body and the way people gender her as female: she's cisgendered, definitely not trans, but that misses something. She dates men exclusively, but she much prefers to have sex with other women: she's straight, but not really. She's bisexual, kind of, but again, not really. She's not a lesbian. She's not pansexual. She doesn't fit into the convenient categories we have made: she's just queer.

So while I see "trans" as the unifying element within "LGBT," I think "queer" is even better: it accounts for all the people those "religious nutjobs" disparage. (Note that plenty of them are not religious at all -- Ayn Rand is a classic nut-case in point.)

By the way, don't underestimate the ability of people to dismiss intersexed people as freaks, in ways similar to the way they dismiss other member of "the acronym." See: "South Park"; hermapholite. See also: Curtis, Jamie Lee (http://www.snopes.com/movies/actors/jamie.asp).

Quote from: Alyssa M. on July 20, 2010, 03:00:57 PM
Izumi, you keep complaining how the LGB don't accept you. The more I read your posts, the more I get the impression that the real issue is that you don't much care for LGB folk. Are you afraid someone might mistake you for a lesbian? Why should you care if they do?

---

GOTH, the largest form of "the acronym" I have seen so far is LGBTQQIAA, where the Q's are "queer" and "questioning" and the A's are "asexual" and "ally." Why doesn't "queer" make sense?

Perhaps an example would help: I know a woman who tends to fit in much better with men, but is happy with her body and the way people gender her as female: she's cisgendered, definitely not trans, but that misses something. She dates men exclusively, but she much prefers to have sex with other women: she's straight, but not really. She's bisexual, kind of, but again, not really. She's not a lesbian. She's not pansexual. She doesn't fit into the convenient categories we have made: she's just queer.

So while I see "trans" as the unifying element within "LGBT," I think "queer" is even better: it accounts for all the people those "religious nutjobs" disparage. (Note that plenty of them are not religious at all -- Ayn Rand is a classic nut-case in point.)

By the way, don't underestimate the ability of people to dismiss intersexed people as freaks, in ways similar to the way they dismiss other member of "the acronym." See: "South Park"; hermapholite. See also: Curtis, Jamie Lee (http://www.snopes.com/movies/actors/jamie.asp).

AHEM~

This week, the District Mayor's Office of GLBT Affairs released the "LGB Health 2010 Report," an examination of everything from smoking habits to sexual behavior in the gay community. This is the District's first report to address the health of lesbians, gays, and bisexuals in the District. But as the report's title makes clear, the transgender community has yet again been excluded from the official conversation on health.

looks like they took out T themselves.  Your right its all in my head.. they love us lots, i can feel the love.  Its as thick as the sarcasm.

I dont care if people mistake me for anything, i just think we can accomplish more if we focused more on just TS issues, notice i didnt say TG issues, TS specifically.  Being part of an organization that is as large as LGB is good but has its drawbacks, the minority issues (TS) issues take a side to accomplish efforts the majority feels are more important.  I dont mind working with the LGB community for certain things, uniting on some common fronts would be nice, and i have nothing against LGB as an organization, you will find good and bad anywhere you go.  I have gay friends, i have lesbian friends, i have Bi friends.  I have enemies too~ isnt life interesting? ^_^

I meant to add this as well in my previous post:

When you say being transsexual is a medical condition, I don't exactly disagree, but it's a very slippery notion. Trans people benefit from medical services, but you can't make a direct comparison to having tuberculosis or Parkinson's disease or pulmonary edema or a broken leg. If you consider either etiology or social stigma, being trans is much more similar to being gay than to having any of those conditions. The term "medical condition" is just plain fuzzy. So yes, being trans is a kind of medical condition, but it's quite a bit more than that.

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Post Merge: July 20, 2010, 04:48:10 PM

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Yes, I've noticed you don't seem to care much for transgendered people who are not transsexual.

Regarding your example: Either the person in charge of this District Mayor's Office of BGTL Affairs (whichever District Mayor we happen to be considering here) is a jackass, or they are behind the times, or (as I'd expect is more likely) the questions that report was considering had to do with sexual activity, and therefore trans status was not directly pertinent. Also, is this District Mayor's Office of LGBT Affairs an independent advocacy group, or a governmental office? Because it sounds like the latter. I don't see how said office should speak for LTBG people; rather, I'd expect it speaks for the government, about TBGL people.

But if you want to advocate for TS-related causes independent of other organizations, bloody well go for it. Who's stopping you? How does the existence of some acronym have any bearing on that whatsoever?

Quote from: Alyssa M. on July 20, 2010, 03:39:15 PM
I meant to add this as well in my previous post:

When you say being transsexual is a medical condition, I don't exactly disagree, but it's a very slippery notion. Trans people benefit from medical services, but you can't make a direct comparison to having tuberculosis or Parkinson's disease or pulmonary edema or a broken leg. If you consider either etiology or social stigma, being trans is much more similar to being gay than to having any of those conditions. The term "medical condition" is just plain fuzzy. So yes, being trans is a kind of medical condition, but it's quite a bit more than that.

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Post Merge: July 20, 2010, 03:48:10 PM

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Yes, I've noticed you don't seem to care much for transgendered people who are not transsexual.

Regarding your example: Either the person in charge of this District Mayor's Office of BGTL Affairs (whichever District Mayor we happen to be considering here) is a jackass, or they are behind the times, or (as I'd expect is more likely) the questions that report was considering had to do with sexual activity, and therefore trans status was not directly pertinent. Also, is this District Mayor's Office of LGBT Affairs an independent advocacy group, or a governmental office? Because it sounds like the latter. I don't see how said office should speak for LTBG people; rather, I'd expect it speaks for the government about TBGL people.

But if you want to advocate for TS-related causes independent of other organizations, bloody well go for it. Who's stopping you? How does the existence of some acronym have any bearing on that whatsoever?

I agree. I mean, I do not think TS is a "medical condition" because our entire notion of what constitutes a "medical condition" is socially constructed. Homosexuality used to be considered a "medical condition" and many still think of it that way so yes, homosexuality and TS are definitely similar in that regard, and they are much more similar than transsexuality is to, say, diabetes or asthma.

Quote from: trnsboi on July 20, 2010, 03:53:10 PM
I agree. I mean, I do not think TS is a "medical condition" because our entire notion of what constitutes a "medical condition" is socially constructed. Homosexuality used to be considered a "medical condition" and many still think of it that way so yes, homosexuality and TS are definitely similar in that regard, and they are much more similar than transsexuality is to, say, diabetes or asthma.

Yeah, of course there is, it seems that as studies continue TS is directly related to various genetic structures in our dna which prevent the proper binding of sex determining hormones.  MTF's cells reject fully or to a higher degree masculine determinate hormones and FTM's accept them more, they have various tests even that show the trends by a simple skin swab.  However more and more tests are being done and slowly the research is becoming more and more accredited.  So yes its medical in that it is a defect in the birth process caused by genetic variance.

Quote from: Izumi on July 20, 2010, 04:07:44 PM
Yeah, of course there is, it seems that as studies continue TS is directly related to various genetic structures in our dna which prevent the proper binding of sex determining hormones.  MTF's cells reject fully or to a higher degree masculine determinate hormones and FTM's accept them more, they have various tests even that show the trends by a simple skin swab.  However more and more tests are being done and slowly the research is becoming more and more accredited.  So yes its medical in that it is a defect in the birth process caused by genetic variance.

You are approaching this from a very binaristic point of view. If TS was caused by hormonal "imbalance" then trans people would be born with intersex-looking genitalia, and most would be infertile. Furthermore, the BEST predictor of adult gender identity is not the amount of androgens that one was exposed to in the womb, but rather the gender that was assigned to them at birth.

Quote from: trnsboi on July 20, 2010, 04:27:29 PM
You are approaching this from a very binaristic point of view. If TS was caused by hormonal "imbalance" then trans people would be born with intersex-looking genitalia, and most would be infertile. Furthermore, the BEST predictor of adult gender identity is not the amount of androgens that one was exposed to in the womb, but rather the gender that was assigned to them at birth.

Wait so now we are getting into nature vs nurture?  And people are born with various levels of intersex, TS might just be a milder form. We know that during gestation different specialized stem cells start forming the structures that will be become the child, its quite possible that one tissue be more affected and other be less, giving a male outward appearance and female neurological for example.  I didnt say it had to with androgens specifically thats just a part, the root cause being genetic in nature, a malformed strand of DNA can make it so hormones dont bind correctly to a cell or even reduce efficiency of the hormone to a point where little is done.  In a grander extent you get intersexuality on a lesser extent you TS, i believe both are various levels of the same spectrum.  Research tends to lead to that route from various sources i have looked at while researching myself and why i am the way I am.. 

We also know that drugs like DES which increase estrogen in the womb also prevent proper gestation and produce more MTF babies.  Thereby showing a link between TS and sex definitive hormone levels during the process of gestation and birth.

I definitely didnt choose it and i wished for a long time it would just go away but all did was get harder to deal with.

Someone asked me before my transition, if you could take 1 pill and you would be cured and not need to transition, you would think and feel like a normal man, would you take it?  I said hell yeah I would!  but there is no pill, the only treatment is this, so this is what i must do to live normally, working so far, so at least i am on the right track.

Mind you, I never said it's not a medical condition. I just said it's more than that. To me it's medical for the very real and important (and also entirely socially constructed) reason that I see doctors to help me deal with it.

I completely agree on binary thinking, though. Who says being trans is a birth defect? How do you know that it's not actually a selective advantage -- no, not to an individual, but to a society? If you presume that pre-agricultural societies didn't reject gender-variant people the way most do today, then all the hypotheses about how having some small number of gay people might have benefited a group certainly could carry over to all manner of gender-variant people. And even if it is a bona fide defect, maybe it's like sickle-cell anemia: fatal in most serious (homozygous) version, but life-saving in the milder (heterozygous) version (except that there are more than two trans alleles and many more phenotypes).

(Not that I'm much of a fan of evolutionary psychology -- I don't believe we have sufficient data to support reliable conclusions in the field -- but I do believe the questions in the field are valid and worth thinking about.)

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TL;DR: "Defect" is a social construct too; all you can say is that your own experience is negative.

Quote from: Izumi on July 20, 2010, 06:29:53 PM
Wait so now we are getting into nature vs nurture?  And people are born with various levels of intersex, TS might just be a milder form. We know that during gestation different specialized stem cells start forming the structures that will be become the child, its quite possible that one tissue be more affected and other be less, giving a male outward appearance and female neurological for example.  I didnt say it had to with androgens specifically thats just a part, the root cause being genetic in nature, a malformed strand of DNA can make it so hormones dont bind correctly to a cell or even reduce efficiency of the hormone to a point where little is done.  In a grander extent you get intersexuality on a lesser extent you TS, i believe both are various levels of the same spectrum.  Research tends to lead to that route from various sources i have looked at while researching myself and why i am the way I am.. 

Someone asked me before my transition, if you could take 1 pill and you would be cured and not need to transition, you would think and feel like a normal man, would you take it? 

What, pray tell, do you mean when you say "normal man"? It's not nature vs nurture so much as it is the binary sex model. There is no prototype of a "normal man" or a "normal woman," no prototype of what is feminine or masculine--it is our cultures that teach us what is "normal." Unfortunately we live in a culture where we only accept the existence of two sexes, male and female, but the truth is that there is way too much variation among people for there to be only two sexes. 

Quote from: Alyssa M. on July 20, 2010, 03:39:15 PM

Yes, I've noticed you don't seem to care much for transgendered people who are not transsexual.

Regarding your example: Either the person in charge of this District Mayor's Office of BGTL Affairs (whichever District Mayor we happen to be considering here) is a jackass, or they are behind the times, or (as I'd expect is more likely) the questions that report was considering had to do with sexual activity, and therefore trans status was not directly pertinent. Also, is this District Mayor's Office of LGBT Affairs an independent advocacy group, or a governmental office? Because it sounds like the latter. I don't see how said office should speak for LTBG people; rather, I'd expect it speaks for the government, about TBGL people.

But if you want to advocate for TS-related causes independent of other organizations, bloody well go for it. Who's stopping you? How does the existence of some acronym have any bearing on that whatsoever?

I have nothing against TG people that aren't TS, i dont understand their situation because i am not one, so i am not qualified to speak about them, all i know is TS so that is what i talk about, if i knew more i would probably discuss the topic more, perhaps after i educate myself a bit more.

I might form a TS organization later in life, right now I am a little busy, when i have more time maybe that will be a possibility, i also thought of running for office, only time will tell, but my want to have a family is priority above all that stuff, so it probably wont be until later in life, in the mean time i do what i can influencing the people around me.

Having it all be one big acronym makes people identify all these things as a single entity. (this is an example)  Lets say if they think 1 thing is weird then everything must be weird.  If you separate it then each part can have its own reputation be it good or bad, but the decision has already been made and by who's consent?  I am not the only TS person that feels we shouldnt be on there, and there are a lot.  In terms of uniting to fight bigotry thats a good goal, but its only one of many on the list.

Also i like when i point out something the response is, oh hes just a jackass and relatively dismiss it as a fluke, its true in your life good things came from being in LGB, but not everyone has shared in the same fortune, and some people even got just as hurt as they did from bigots....  Its a lot more rare, but it still happens.  In a TS group you might be kicked out because you are a horrible person, but you wont be kicked out because you have TS.  In LGBT, some groups just dont want you around because your TS....

Sorry to say that but it does happen.  I dont mean to offend i am sure there are nice people out there part of the community and do all they can to help, to those people i say thanks.

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Post Merge: July 20, 2010, 07:04:16 PM

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Quote from: trnsboi on July 20, 2010, 06:46:22 PM
What, pray tell, do you mean when you say "normal man"? It's not nature vs nurture so much as it is the binary sex model. There is no prototype of a "normal man" or a "normal woman," no prototype of what is feminine or masculine--it is our cultures that teach us what is "normal." Unfortunately we live in a culture where we only accept the existence of two sexes, male and female, but the truth is that there is way too much variation among people for there to be only two sexes.

You read to much into the world normal, i am speaking of normal in terms of the genetic sense of accepted variance.  A normal man would be what everyone assumes would be genetically XY free of TS and Intersex variance.  It doesnt mean he is not a psychopath, missing limbs, or has a number of other disorders, it just means he is free of the causes of intersex and TS, to which the public would refer to as... normal. 

In terms of the two sexes most identify as one or the other, with a few being andro.  So to fix the problem you simply add andro to the mix, wouldnt that fix it?

I personally believe to fix this problem once and for all adding the third option and adding perceptive sex during birth and actual sex later would fix a lot.  When your born your parents and the doctor give you a PS(perceptive sex), as you grow you learn what you are, and allowed 1 free sex change so to speak, where upon reaching age 18 you can change that with a simple to form to your legal sex which may or may not be different.  From that point on you will live as what you picked, and all old documentation will change along with your name if so desired.

eh but its only a dream...

Quote from: cynthialee on July 19, 2010, 12:45:18 PM
But the same guy who wants to beat us for being gay asumes you are also gay. Truth of the matter is irelevant. The same guy that wants to kill queers wants to kill you.
They see transwomen like us as the ultimate expression of homosexuality. Even when faced with someone like me who much prefers sex with females in spite of being MTF.
They hate us all for the same reasons, that is enough reason to stand with someone who may not be the person you would normaly like to be associated with.
It doesn't matter what we think or know or believe true about ourselves, we share an enemy with the LGB crowd.

Right, because people already use the acronym GLBT. If we had never been lumped together, people would not assume we are the same. Then we might have had different enemies.

Quote from: Icephoenyx on July 20, 2010, 07:32:54 PM
Right, because people already use the acronym GLBT. If we had never been lumped together, people would not assume we are the same. Then we might have had different enemies.

I am not sure if this was a sarcastic jab or not, but let me give you this example.  Many people accept intersexuality, they think oh they are just born with that, but they dont think that way for TS why? Is it be cause TS is bundled with T and LGB? people say that I is part of LGBT but its not visible as much.  Definitely people dont talk about intersex as much as they talk about TG which they just assume TS is apart of.

On a side note if intersex and TS joined up in an organization the name would sound pretty good.  Either TSI, heh, TSI almost sounds like a government agency to fight world terrorism, however i would avoid going the other route ITS.  People might get the wrong idea lol

Quote from: Izumi on July 20, 2010, 06:55:28 PM

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Post Merge: July 20, 2010, 07:04:16 PM

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You read to much into the world normal, i am speaking of normal in terms of the genetic sense of accepted variance.  A normal man would be what everyone assumes would be genetically XY free of TS and Intersex variance.  It doesnt mean he is not a psychopath, missing limbs, or has a number of other disorders, it just means he is free of the causes of intersex and TS, to which the public would refer to as... normal. 

In terms of the two sexes most identify as one or the other, with a few being andro.  So to fix the problem you simply add andro to the mix, wouldnt that fix it?

I personally believe to fix this problem once and for all adding the third option and adding perceptive sex during birth and actual sex later would fix a lot.  When your born your parents and the doctor give you a PS(perceptive sex), as you grow you learn what you are, and allowed 1 free sex change so to speak, where upon reaching age 18 you can change that with a simple to form to your legal sex which may or may not be different.  From that point on you will live as what you picked, and all old documentation will change along with your name if so desired.

eh but its only a dream...

I don't think I'm reading too far into the word "normal." You keep talking about "accepted variance" and "to which the public would refer to as... normal." What I am trying to get at is that there is NO prototype for what is "normal." Who is to say what a "normal" man's chromosomes should look like, or how he should act?

And when you say that "most people identify as one or the other" you need to realize that we live in a society that only accepts one or the other. I don't think adding andro to the mix would help anything, because in order to have andro ("in between") there has to be male and female, and I do not buy into the male/female dichotomy because it simply does not exist. What I would really like to see is the entire notion of gender done away with, but that is a long ways off.   

Quote from: Izumi on July 20, 2010, 06:55:28 PM
I have nothing against TG people that aren't TS, i dont understand their situation because i am not one, so i am not qualified to speak about them, all i know is TS so that is what i talk about, if i knew more i would probably discuss the topic more, perhaps after i educate myself a bit more.

You complain that people don't understand your condition, so perhaps you should try to understand other gender-variant people (those who deviate from cultural norms -- and you bet that includes TS and IS people). Also, if you don't understand their situation, how exactly can you be sure you're so different? I'm not saying you're not -- but maybe your similar in ways you thought you were different, or different in ways you though you were similar.
Until you understand those others categories a bit better, you don't have much backing up your claim to be in a category that is terribly distinct.

QuoteI might form a TS organization later in life, right now I am a little busy, when i have more time maybe that will be a possibility, i also thought of running for office, only time will tell, but my want to have a family is priority above all that stuff, so it probably wont be until later in life, in the mean time i do what i can influencing the people around me.

We're all busy, and we all have priorities. If the structure of activist groups is so important to you, maybe you ought to reconsider yours. Frankly, I think activism is a huge drag, and, yeah, I'm busy trying to make sure I get my degree one of these days -- and also, I'm busy screwing around on the Internet. But as long as my contribution remains as paltry as it is, I will try to avoid complaining about the activism others are doing on my behalf.

QuoteHaving it all be one big acronym makes people identify all these things as a single entity. (this is an example)  Lets say if they think 1 thing is weird then everything must be weird.  If you separate it then each part can have its own reputation be it good or bad, but the decision has already been made and by who's consent?  I am not the only TS person that feels we shouldnt be on there, and there are a lot.  In terms of uniting to fight bigotry thats a good goal, but its only one of many on the list.

You don't give people much credit, do you? Look, haters gonna hate. But I've only seen the reverse: people learn about the G and the L, and then they catch on to the B, and then eventually they get the T, and later they get to understand the different flavors of T.

But frankly, if anyone has legitimate reason to be worried about being seen as weird because (really?) some acronym lumps them together with social pariahs, well, it ain't us ->-bleeped-<- ->-bleeped-<- freaks.

QuoteAlso i like when i point out something the response is, oh hes just a jackass and relatively dismiss it as a fluke,

No, you didn't read the rest. I said the report you mentioned was probably relating sex and health, and therefore wasn't pertinent to trans people specifically.

Quoteits true in your life good things came from being in LGB, but not everyone has shared in the same fortune, and some people even got just as hurt as they did from bigots....  Its a lot more rare, but it still happens.  In a TS group you might be kicked out because you are a horrible person, but you wont be kicked out because you have TS.  In LGBT, some groups just dont want you around because your TS....

Sorry to say that but it does happen.  I dont mean to offend i am sure there are nice people out there part of the community and do all they can to help, to those people i say thanks.

???

Was this in response to something? I am having difficulty parsing this.

What exactly have gay people done to you that is so awful? Your aversion to LBG folks must be coming from somewhere -- the usual sources is social conditioning of homophobia, but maybe there's some traumatic event in your past. I don't know.

I've seen plenty of kicking out of people based on identity politics within the T community -- most often within the TS part. So, yes, you can certainly get kicked out of a TS group because your understanding of TS doesn't fit with others. In fact, I feel as though you're doing just that, which is why I'm, arguing the point so persistently ...

... maybe even to the point you feel I want to kick you out. I don't; I just very strongly disagree with your politics.

Quote from: trnsboi on July 20, 2010, 07:59:03 PM
I don't think I'm reading too far into the word "normal." You keep talking about "accepted variance" and "to which the public would refer to as... normal." What I am trying to get at is that there is NO prototype for what is "normal." Who is to say what a "normal" man's chromosomes should look like, or how he should act?

And when you say that "most people identify as one or the other" you need to realize that we live in a society that only accepts one or the other. I don't think adding andro to the mix would help anything, because in order to have andro ("in between") there has to be male and female, and I do not buy into the male/female dichotomy because it simply does not exist. What I would really like to see is the entire notion of gender done away with, but that is a long ways off.

Our concept of normal and the world majority concept of normal is different.  Yes i agree with you normal is a subjective term and i believe that normal can be defined only individually, however the world sees normal as one thing or another, and even though we dont like it(including myself), thats the way it is now, until changed.

I am not sure the notion of gender can go away for legal reasons.  I give you this example with an FTM friend of mine, He has cysts in his uterus but legally hes fully male, he wants to remove it for medical reasons, they will do the operation, however, insurance wont cover him because hes a MAN and doesnt have a uterus.  Also other medical benefits can effect one sex and not the other.  Also would you have prisons with mixed populations of men and women, trust me that would be chaos.

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Post Merge: July 22, 2010, 12:35:26 PM

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Quote from: Alyssa M. on July 20, 2010, 08:56:13 PM
You complain that people don't understand your condition, so perhaps you should try to understand other gender-variant people (those who deviate from cultural norms -- and you bet that includes TS and IS people). Also, if you don't understand their situation, how exactly can you be sure you're so different? I'm not saying you're not -- but maybe your similar in ways you thought you were different, or different in ways you though you were similar.
Until you understand those others categories a bit better, you don't have much backing up your claim to be in a category that is terribly distinct.

We're all busy, and we all have priorities. If the structure of activist groups is so important to you, maybe you ought to reconsider yours. Frankly, I think activism is a huge drag, and, yeah, I'm busy trying to make sure I get my degree one of these days -- and also, I'm busy screwing around on the Internet. But as long as my contribution remains as paltry as it is, I will try to avoid complaining about the activism others are doing on my behalf.


You don't give people much credit, do you? Look, haters gonna hate. But I've only seen the reverse: people learn about the G and the L, and then they catch on to the B, and then eventually they get the T, and later they get to understand the different flavors of T.

But frankly, if anyone has legitimate reason to be worried about being seen as weird because (really?) some acronym lumps them together with social pariahs, well, it ain't us ->-bleeped-<- ->-bleeped-<- freaks.

No, you didn't read the rest. I said the report you mentioned was probably relating sex and health, and therefore wasn't pertinent to trans people specifically.

???

Was this in response to something? I am having difficulty parsing this.

What exactly have gay people done to you that is so awful? Your aversion to LBG folks must be coming from somewhere -- the usual sources is social conditioning of homophobia, but maybe there's some traumatic event in your past. I don't know.

I've seen plenty of kicking out of people based on identity politics within the T community -- most often within the TS part. So, yes, you can certainly get kicked out of a TS group because your understanding of TS doesn't fit with others. In fact, I feel as though you're doing just that, which is why I'm, arguing the point so persistently ...

... maybe even to the point you feel I want to kick you out. I don't; I just very strongly disagree with your politics.

Well, the beautiful thing is that we dont agree but we have a civil discussion about it, i dont want to kick you out at all i hope you think the same of me.  Two people having different opinions shaped by their lives, nothing wrong with that, it leads to good discussion and learning in which the people participating benefit with a higher level of understanding.

I guess the worst thing I saw was a TS woman getting harassed and a little roughed up by some gay people who said she was just a poser who could accept she was a gay man, but i heard worse.  Mostly i witness just getting not accepted in some LGB groups or sensing they dont want you there, not so much as before, times maybe a changing which is a good sign.

After a while i just decided i wouldnt deal with the LGBT stuff and just join my therapist's TS group, made up of TS and friends & family, ftm, mtf, and intersex mostly.  Friends/family range from gay or straight or lesbian, some Bi.  We dont do much to help each other out talk about our experiences in a pot luck, its a lot of fun and no problems ever happen since i have been coming, everyone seems nice and civil with differing political views.   Some people think the same way you do, others do not, but its still a pleasure seeing them once every month and we always have a good time.

oh i almost forgot, the report dealing with sex and health doesnt apply to TS? eh?  I would think it does, we do have sex you know, some gay some straight. ^_^  Unless their a monk or something....

Quote from: Izumi on July 22, 2010, 12:20:31 PM


I am not sure the notion of gender can go away for legal reasons.  I give you this example with an FTM friend of mine, He has cysts in his uterus but legally hes fully male, he wants to remove it for medical reasons, they will do the operation, however, insurance wont cover him because hes a MAN and doesnt have a uterus.  Also other medical benefits can effect one sex and not the other.  Also would you have prisons with mixed populations of men and women, trust me that would be chaos.

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Post Merge: July 22, 2010, 12:35:26 PM

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The insurance issue is exactly what I mean when I say sex categories should be eliminated. Your friend is legally a man so his insurance will not cover his operation. That is because, according to our binary gender system, man=no uterus. However, your friend is a man who has a uterus. In other words, having a uterus does not preclude you from being a man, and it does not make you a woman (I'm sure you could attest to this personally). Anatomy does not determine sex, one's identity determines one's sex; in fact, the ONLY thing that ALL men have in common is a male identity, and the only thing ALL women have in common is a female identity. If we lived in a society free of the constraints of sex categories, your friend's surgery would be covered.

As far as prisons go, they should be segregated based on body strength and size. A person who is a bodybuilder should probably not be put in a unit with a person who weighs 90lbs, regardless of gender identity.

Quote from: Izumi on July 22, 2010, 12:20:31 PM
Well, the beautiful thing is that we dont agree but we have a civil discussion about it, i dont want to kick you out at all i hope you think the same of me.  Two people having different opinions shaped by their lives, nothing wrong with that, it leads to good discussion and learning in which the people participating benefit with a higher level of understanding.

Okay, good. It's often hard to express your thoughts and feelings while respecting those of others, even when you might feel (rightly or wrongly) that they aren't respecting you. So I appreciate your willingness to give me the benefit of the doubt.

Quote
I guess the worst thing I saw was a TS woman getting harassed and a little roughed up by some gay people who said she was just a poser who could accept she was a gay man, but i heard worse.  Mostly i witness just getting not accepted in some LGB groups or sensing they dont want you there, not so much as before, times maybe a changing which is a good sign.

...

I think this is what's really worth talking about -- specific experiences; reality, rather than abstractions.

That's awful. I've seen or heard similar sentiments expressed at times. Janice Raymond is the standard bearer for queer transphobia. Totally unacceptable. At some point I can understand giving up. But I think the younger generation of queer people (and also, not coincidentally, feminists) are embracing a much broader view. At least that's what I see happening.

Quote
oh i almost forgot, the report dealing with sex and health doesnt apply to TS? eh?  I would think it does, we do have sex you know, some gay some straight. ^_^  Unless their a monk or something....

Well, yeah ... my point is, what were they studying? There's a culture among gay men, and another culture among lesbians, and sometimes bi or trans people are part of those cultures, but there's no trans culture in the same sense. (Which doesn't mean anything about "the acronym": L and G are often quite separate cultures, but they come together for political purposes.) Anyway, I don't know what they were studying.

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Post Merge: July 22, 2010, 08:32:20 PM

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Quote from: trnsboi on July 22, 2010, 02:32:00 PM
As far as prisons go, they should be segregated based on body strength and size. A person who is a bodybuilder should probably not be put in a unit with a person who weighs 90lbs, regardless of gender identity.

I think you're going a bit too far there. For one thing, strength is irrelevant compared to numbers.

If we're imagining a utopian world, let's just imagine not having prisons. I like that idea a lot better.

Quote from: Izumi on July 19, 2010, 02:12:41 PM
Ok, but that doesnt answer my question on why Intersex isnt up there.  Shouldnt it be LGBTI? or does the T imply I?  I dont see as much on intersex being hated as much as we are? why is that? Is it because everyone assumes its a medical condition they are born with and cannot help the way they were born? isnt TS the same?

What I've always thought about this is intersex is seen as a physical condition, L, G, B and T are thought of as a mental condition.  Society has long felt the brain can be changed so why change the body, especially when it's healthy?  With intersex, you can see the problem, with LGBT you cannot.

Most humans are lazy.  Why spend all that time learning about all those things when they don't affect you personally?  If they bother you, just tell them to change or you will discriminate against them, ostracize them from society and try to eradicate them.  That way you can sit in front of your TV drinking beer and watching cars drive around in a circle until you pass out or run out of beer.  That's a lot easier than educating yourself.

Intersex falls under the transgender part of the spectrum. You can't always tell if you are intersex.

Quote from: Cindy Stephens on July 24, 2010, 06:38:53 PM
I just wanted to point out that there has been ample evidence revealed from recent studies that homosexuality is also a "medical" condition.  At least sometimes.  Studies show that when one twin is gay, the other twin will be gay a statistically significant (by far) percent of the time.  This occurs when the twins were NOT brought up together.  Further, a recent study showed that homosexuality occurs in a predictable way depending on birth order.  It is possible, given knowledge of whether a male is the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, etc. male born, to give the odds that that male child will be gay.  It seems that nature has endowed mothers with the ability to limit active procreative male children (homosexuality increases with gross number of male children) in order to foster some sort of equilibrium. 
Therefore, I find the argument that TS people are somehow "special" in the lbgt spectrum under a claim that they have a  "medical" condition, unlike the others, to be without merit.

Good going, Cindy.  GLBT all have a physical, biological, medical basis.  But many decades ago, GLB peeps and T peeps decided to pursue different political strategies.  The GLB peeps successfully lobbied to get homosexuality out of the DSM as a mental disorder, and have rebranded it as a "lifestyle choice."  They even reached the point that they were on the verge of getting ENDA out of committee.

Meanwhile, T peeps embraced the medical stigma in exchange for instant legitimacy.  They had legal recognition as the post-operative sex, and so were able to be on an even footing with heteropeeps.  They even got their own recognition as protected from employment discrimination under Title VII under the Price Waterhouse line of cases.

But then T peeps' acceptance got threatened, and even swept away in some jurisdictions, as a result of the GLB efforts to obtain same sex marriage rights, and the religious right's reaction that included refusing to recognize T peeps as the new sex following surgery.  Those same jurisdictions have also threatened to not recognize protection under Title VII for T peeps.

So that's what happens when two groups with similar interests and goals work at cross purposes, and don't coordinate their efforts.  A lot of T peeps are viewing the alliance with GLB as a cause of the loss of acceptance that T peeps have sufferred over the past 10-15 years, but it is really a response to that loss, and a needed one. 

Beachhead established. Now step aside and let us fight the damn war. Thanks.

The only war we, as ts, seem to win is in our own minds: and that seems to occur only when we fight each other. I'm thinking that whole, "a house divided amongst itself,cannot stand", thingy.  I have no doubt of your good intentions, but damn, we just really suck at it.   Like the best Judo masters, the relig right uses our reasonable requests against us to raise money for more Rolex's and materials to trash us.  We fall for the bait every time.  I have no doubt that we will get there, but it will take time.  You cannot legislate true acceptance.  We can, however, breed and foster a climate of acceptance and goodwill amongst ourselves.  The relig right hates gays just as much as us, and the enemy of my enemy is my friend.

Quote from: Miniar on June 26, 2010, 12:34:04 PM
The T in GLBT = Transgender
Not Transsexual.
Transsexual are a "sub set" of Transgender.

I think this says it all...   I'm going to go a step further and suggest that Transsexuals aren't even part of the GLBT community. Now I have NOTHING against crossdressers at all... but the "part timers" face issues most similar to our GLB  friends.  Transsexuals only fall into the "T" category during transition. During that time, we experience much of the misunderstanding and prejudice associated with the GLBT group. The goal of transition is to live as our "true" gender... Once we've made that change, for all practical purposes, we're just like the rest of the straight world.
  It might not be a very popular thing to say but I think that sometimes, crossdressers make it more difficult for Transsexuals to be taken seriously. The difference is really between a medical condition and a lifestyle choice.

I am new to all this info. I have been married for sometime to my wife, but if I had been born a woman. I don't think that I would have been with a woman. I went from looking up to them to liking them. I have spent most of my life in confusion about my sexuality. I have felt that others thought that I was gay and set me up with girls hoping that I would change my mind. I have been with both and found that I was still unhappy with myself. When I get to the other side of this I am not sure that I will want to be with anyone. I would love to be seen as only a woman, but looks like I will not have that. I havn't thought about being grouped up with LGB. Did not know that I needed too. What ever my sexuality is many things played a roll in it even straight people pushed me to be like them. I felt wronged by straight people that made me change my clothes with "the other boys". I could not pass to the next grade because I would not change out in P.E. I was held back for 2 or 3 years over this. I did not know what I was going through. I had friends that where boys growing up some of them I thought more of, but what was I thinking.

Quote from: JessicaR on July 25, 2010, 09:31:32 PM
I think this says it all...   I'm going to go a step further and suggest that Transsexuals aren't even part of the GLBT community. Now I have NOTHING against crossdressers at all... but the "part timers" face issues most similar to our GLB  friends.  Transsexuals only fall into the "T" category during transition. During that time, we experience much of the misunderstanding and prejudice associated with the GLBT group. The goal of transition is to live as our "true" gender... Once we've made that change, for all practical purposes, we're just like the rest of the straight world.
  It might not be a very popular thing to say but I think that sometimes, crossdressers make it more difficult for Transsexuals to be taken seriously. The difference is really between a medical condition and a lifestyle choice.

Hm. So you define "transsexual" to exclude GLB trans people?

QuoteTranssexuals only fall into the "T" category during transition

This is an important point. Unlike every other group, transsexual people (and, in fact, all varieties of transgendered people) have nothing that brings them together. With oppressed ethnic or racial groups, there are family and cultural ties. With oppressed religious or political groups, there is a shared ideology. With gay, lesbian, and bisexual people, there's love. With trans people (of any variety), there's nothing that holds us together. Nothing.

I have valued many of my interactions with other trans people, such as in support groups. But I'm no more or less likely to be friends with a trans person than with anyone else I meet. On the other hand, I certainly have a connection with other lesbians that I don't have with men or straight women. That includes trans lesbians -- but their trans status is completely incidental.

But what do we do with that?

I think we can realize that T (of any scope or variety) is not a naturally cohesive category. We split among ourselves more than any other group; we split with our allies; we ditch the community (as forced as it is) as soon as we can. This is a major weakness. Our response ought to be to work on that, to recognize the very legitimate reasons we tend to want to split apart, and to try to avoid that temptation, because it doesn't help.

There's something else going no there: you're implicitly assuming passing privilege. If you can pass, then what you say is true. That's only possible if you have some combination of youth, money, support, access to medical care, and plain old luck. None of those are necessary, but you need at least one or two, and the more, the better. Until you get to the point of passing and fitting in completely, you face just about the greatest level of othering and discrimination of any group in the world. So even if it's only a few years, it's a pretty important few years.

In an important sense, it's not really true that you can ever get past being trans. Sure, you can get to the point of passing. But can you get to the point of being 100% certain nobody is going to out you? Not in this world, you can't. Even if you once could, that time is past. Perhaps you'll be lucky, and nobody malicious will ever get their grubby hands on your little secret, but I'd rather improve my odds by removing the consequences of being outed. I want stealth to be a choice. I don't want to live my life like a fugitive. That holds no allure whatsoever.

QuoteIt might not be a very popular thing to say but I think that sometimes, crossdressers make it more difficult for Transsexuals to be taken seriously

It'll make you practically a rock star in certain circles. It might even be true. But throwing them under the bus won't help. There not going anywhere, so get used to it, and figure out how to deal with it. Complaints that it's too hard because of *those people* also make it more difficult for transsexuals to be taken seriously.

QuoteThe difference is really between a medical condition and a lifestyle choice.

Wait -- are you saying being gay is a "lifestyle choice"? EPIC FAIL. Seriously, now you're just trolling.

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Cindy, I was extending your metaphor. You said this:

QuoteI say, "let the straight looking and talking gays run point and establish the beachheads!"

Um ... yeah, they did that. Job done. Congressional medal of honor to Barney for taking out that machine gun nest.

(By the way, he's certainly not "Log Cabin," not a Republican at all. And he's scarcely a poster child: he paid a prostitute for sex, hired him as a personal aide, gave him a place to live, used his clout to help him avoid legal trouble, and finally ditched him when it was revealed that he was running a brother out of his apartment. But I don't care -- I wasn't the one advocating for clean-cut marketable queers.)

In any case, now that we've taken Omaha Beach, can we perhaps move to take the rest of Normandy? Maybe liberate Paris? Hell, let's beat the Red Army to Berlin this time.

Also, fine, "run point," great. I'm not a political tool; I'm a person. Am I just supposed to sit on my hands, keep quiet, and wait for scraps of liberation and social justice to fall from the table of the socially acceptable?

Actually, I'm probably about as close as you'll get to the clean-cut all-American picture of happiness you can find: over-educated, church-going, presentable, conservative living, connected to urban, suburban, and rural culture. And I'm doing what I can to get charming Republican grandmothers to think, "Gosh, these young transsexuals are just the kind of people I hope my grandchildren might grow up to be!" even if it's just going to brunch with them on Sunday mornings after church, or taking Communion to home-bound parishoners, or reading the Epistles, or singing in the choir, or baking cookies for coffee hour, all of which seems to be working reasonably well.

But I won't betray my fellow freaks and queers and friends of mine. I won't pretend for a second that I'm better than they are. I refuse to let anyone else use my comparative social conformity and respectability and privilege to condemn them by comparison. To anyone who might do that, all I can say is, "As you have done unto these the least of my brethren, you have done unto me."

The problem with MTF transexuals disappearing into the female community and FTM transgenders disappearing into the male community is that there are states that legally define male and female for the purposes of marriage is the physical sex you were born with and it doesn't matter how much you change your body to fit your gender.   Thus there can be legal challenges to the marriage of MTF transexuals to physically born males and marriages of FTM transgenders to physically born females.  Legally changing your birth certificate, having sexual reasignment surgery, and changing your name and drivers license, and a legal marriage license will not matter.   If your spouse parents or the state or the federal government chooses to challenge your spousal benefits, inheritance, custody of the children you may be in for a battle.   The outcome may come down to you were both born male and males can't marry so you have no recourse.

We can't disappear because society won't let us.   If gays and lesbians had the right to marry in every state than transgenders marriages couldn't be challenged.   This is also how all of our rights are joined together.

Quote from: JessicaR on July 25, 2010, 09:31:32 PM
Transsexuals only fall into the "T" category during transition. During that time, we experience much of the misunderstanding and prejudice associated with the GLBT group. The goal of transition is to live as our "true" gender... Once we've made that change, for all practical purposes, we're just like the rest of the straight world.

I don't think that's really true.  Anytime a post-op fails in the attempt to be stealth, or simply chooses not to be stealth, they are subject to that misunderstanding and prejudice.  Being stealth after surgery is not as common as most transitioners hope.

Quote
  It might not be a very popular thing to say but I think that sometimes, crossdressers make it more difficult for Transsexuals to be taken seriously. The difference is really between a medical condition and a lifestyle choice.

One thing to consider is that if we can say that about them, then others can say that about us.  I just can't bring myself to demand inclusion from others on one hand, and then exclude some other subgroup like that.  That's why I view racial minorities that discriminate against GLBT as some fairly aggregious hypocrites.  It makes them as bad as those who discriminated against them.  May I never sink that low.

QuoteIt might not be a very popular thing to say but I think that sometimes, crossdressers make it more difficult for Transsexuals to be taken seriously. The difference is really between a medical condition and a lifestyle choice

Please keep in mind many of the cross dressers are actually closeted transwomen who have yet to come to terms with thier gender.

After reading your responses I realized that I should have been way more specific...
   First, a disclaimer... I have no problems with the GLBT community or our association with them... I also do not think that being gay, lesbian, bi or transgendered is a choice.. (I think the trolling comment was a bit harsh.)
I'm a bisexual transsexual so I feel that I'm part of both the GLBT and the T communities. I have no problem with the T community being associated with the GLB. But....
  Who I'm talking about, specifically, are fetishistic ->-bleeped-<-s. There's a huge difference between a transsexual in transition and a guy who gets sexually aroused by wearing womens' clothing. I see ->-bleeped-<-s as having a choice between keeping their fetish in the bedroom where it belongs and going out in public for kicks. When people see a transsexual that may not pass very well, it's automatically assumed that they're a ->-bleeped-<-. Sexuality is inappropriately attached to the situation and folks get skeeved out. If more, correct information was  out there about the differences between transsexuals and others in the "T" community maybe opinions about the condition might start to change.

An example:  I have a close friend who works in a womens' clothing store. There are 2 or 3 guys, presenting as guys, who frequent the store and always ask for help fitting a bra or wanting to try on clothes in the fitting room. They make a big deal about it and seem to get pleasure from the attention. It creeps people out, including me! It lends to the notion that ALL transgendered people crossdress in public to make everyone part of their sexual fantasy.

"Unfortunately, I think the problem is one of marketing technique.  If you look at the materials produced by the relig right, it usually contains pictures of drag queens, and leather/bondage fetish types."

This is huge point... I recently was asked not to attend an outing by a friend of a friend because she, "didn't want her kids to see that." Whether we like it or not, these are the first images that enter people's minds when they hear, "transgendered."

   "So you're just REALLY gay," a coworker said to me when I came out. That's the type of assumption about transgendered folks that I would like to change... Association as part of a greater community is fine but incorrect assumptions as a result of that association are damaging. It's like saying, "Oh, you're a communist, you must be Cuban." It's damaging because it's incorrect
   
  I'm beginning to wrap up my transition.. I just scheduled GRS...  and I'm starting to consider stealth to some degree. I know that I'll always be trans but I'm starting to not "feel" trans anymore.. Does that make sense?

  Again, my intention is not to be inflammatory... This is just something I've been thinking about recently and I'd like to know how others feel  :)

We don't ever really know why people do what they do.    I just feel like a quiet unassuming female and the outlandishness of female dress in Gay Pride Parades sort of creeps me out,  but maybe that is just how they feel comfortable dealing with their femaleness, maybe  being outlandish allows them to be female in public, and that's ok.   And it also shows how our society over does the stereo typical female image, and us girls don't have to go that far to be effeminate.    Maybe we are even letting our maleness determine what we should be as women which we girls should stamp out.   That's just what I think.   

Quote from: Izumi on July 20, 2010, 07:40:26 PM
I am not sure if this was a sarcastic jab or not, but let me give you this example.  Many people accept intersexuality, they think oh they are just born with that, but they dont think that way for TS why? Is it be cause TS is bundled with T and LGB? people say that I is part of LGBT but its not visible as much.  Definitely people dont talk about intersex as much as they talk about TG which they just assume TS is apart of.

On a side note if intersex and TS joined up in an organization the name would sound pretty good.  Either TSI, heh, TSI almost sounds like a government agency to fight world terrorism, however i would avoid going the other route ITS.  People might get the wrong idea lol

Nope, no scarcasm intended. I just wanted to point out that GLBT has been used as an umbrella term for too long, and now people assume we are all 'gay' whether that's true or not. That's why we have the same enemies of GLB's to some extent.

Chrissi

Quote from: Icephoenyx on July 27, 2010, 04:04:32 PM
Nope, no scarcasm intended. I just wanted to point out that GLBT has been used as an umbrella term for too long, and now people assume we are all 'gay' whether that's true or not. That's why we have the same enemies of GLB's to some extent.

Chrissi

WE always had the same enemies.  Our enemies are the gender binay police.  It's just that until GLB peeps started lobbying for gay marriage, T peeps were mostly off the radar.  But then we got caught in the Religious Right's backlash against those efforts, and we are on their radar now, like it or not.

Intersex people being "born that way" will not save them from that same backlash.  A lesson from history is the policy of the third reich.  They thought that homosexuality had as much a biological origin as Judaism.  It didn't stop them from persecuting gays.  And while the religious reich in the US loves to say that it's not proven that it's biological for LGBT peeps, the fact remains that most of them really don't care.  They are just shouting us down when we bring it up.

People have always conflated variant sexuality with variant gender expression, probably with good reason, as sexuality is a highly gendered trait. Many gay people have variant gender expression; gender-variant people (including those whose variance is variant only with respect to the gender they were assigned at birth) are ... well, sometimes gay and sometimes not ... and give that there are people who understand and some people who don't understand that binary-gendered transsexuals are the gender they claim to be, we're all gay to somebody.

I don't see how we can blame the acronym for people's ignorance. People are ignorant to begin with. To those morons who learn about my trans status and ask me, "so does that mean you're gay?" (a rare occurrence), I just say, "Well, no it doesn't mean that I'm gay, and it doesn't mean I'm not; however, since you're asking, yes, I am. I have only ever been attracted to other women."

And let's stop freaking out about (a) the existence of deviant people of all sorts and (b) idiotic propaganda out enemies put out. It just gives makes us look weak and insecure and gives the propaganda more credibility.

When people come to the conclusion that I am transgenderd they automaically change gears into thinking I like men, which is completely wrong and rather fustrating. I believe gender identity, and sexual orientation are completely different. Even people who are "straight" may have overly feminine or masculine traits, contrary to their gender. I just stopped believe in labels, we're all human here, I think it is a good idea to be open as a group and that anyone who displays gender or sexual traits outside the norm be accepted, and protected from the descrimination lobbed on us by the rest of the world.

Hi Llewelyn,

I quite agree with you. Of course, people assume the same thing about cis* women, too. Unless a woman makes it very clear that she is a lesbian, people generally will assume she's into men. Most people just haven't thought nearly as much about gender as, well, pretty much anybody on this forum.

* (In case you don't know, cis means not trans, borrowed from Latin by way of chemistry.)

Thank you for the clairity Alyssa :) It's so nice to be in the deluge of people understanding. Really I think it ended up "LGBT" because anyone who has to question themselfs on such a scale, whether it's their sexual orientation or identity, has a bit more humility and understand than someone who hasn't had to.

Yes, hetero trans people who have made the transition and seamlessly integrated into society in their identified gender do not have a lot in common with the rest of LGBT people.  If one transitions at puberty, it's mostly a slam dunk you will never experience discrimination because of your birth gender.

But trans people who...
- don't pass perfectly
- have a work and/or credit history as their former self that will they need to produce
- live in a state that doesn't change birth certificates
- have people from their past that might "spill the beans"
- or have any other factors that could result in their birth gender being revealed
...could experience discrimination, persecution, ostracization and other problems due to social ignorance, bigotry and hatred. 

The LGBT activists are trying to educate the public and end discrimination.  All of the above would benefit from that.  Any transsexual person can identify as transgender - regardless of the life they live, if they can pass or not, etc - by the simple fact that their sex chromosomes are the opposite of their gender identity.  And there's nothing you can do to change that.

It's past time for the transgender community to leave the GLB movement and let the GLB do their own thing. The GLBs don't really give a ->-bleeped-<- about us anyways and are typically more bigoted and hateful of the T than even some straight republicans, and above all, "LGBT" reminds me of Sesame Street like one of these things just doesn't belong here. LG and B are connected and the T is not really part of the group. LG and B all refer to sexuality and who a person is attracted to, but transgender HAS NOTHING to do with sexuality. One of the biggest problems that has come from our association with the LGBs over time is that now whenever we come out we are automatically asked if we are gay, lesbian or bi. Extremely rare is the person who will ask a transgender person if they are straight because the association of 'T' with the LGBs has created the stigma for us that we are all either lesbian, gay or bi and that's not the case at all.
The reason why there is so much conflict between the LGB people and the T people is that many T people are heterosexual with no desire to be LG or B, but with the LG and B people they are are trying to fight the heterosexuals for rights and therefore the T group has just been caught up in that.
What united the LGBT people together in the first place was the similar fight we all had with society and government, and what divided us has been LGB greed, disrespect, hate, discrimination, and selfishness.
I have been a proud supporter of the LGBT family until now. I have been to several LGBT group meetings and the last time I went I heard the sentence that summed up the LGBs for me perfectly: "We need to get what's right for us, and the ->-bleeped-<-s can just wait anyways."
So, I am a proud heterosexual, transgender woman and the only family that is mine is the transgender family, and I wish good luck upon the LGB group, but I will no longer, ever again, say that I am a proud member of the LGBT family, because it's true that those ties were severed long ago and we've been drifting apart ever since.

And are you writing the checks?  We need office space, office equipment, political connections, meeting spaces and public figures.  Got any of those things at hand?

For me I've never saw the need to be lumped in with the Queer/Bi crowd.  in the beginning I was fairly active in their community but I always felt I was always on the outside looking in, that by exclusion they were discriminating against me.  Eventually I bid them farewell.  As a herto-sexual woman I didn't fit in, and didn't need their support; In fact they became a liability.

As others have mentioned, those who have successfully transitioned really don't need any support other than that required to get through life.  We disappear for the most part except those of us who hang around places like this.

-={LR}=-

I don't think that as many 'disappear' as you - or even they - think.  And the more people who come out, the harder it is going to be to disappear.

Quote from: tekla on August 01, 2010, 10:35:25 AM
I don't think that as many 'disappear' as you - or even they - think.  And the more people who come out, the harder it is going to be to disappear.

Quite true.  No matter what, we all have a past and there are probably just as many who want to hide their past as there are those who couldn't care less.  Kinda hard to predict how successful one would be.  I guess one could move to a deserted island but as luck would have it, Gilligan and his tribe would wash up on shore and blow it.

-={LR}=-

Quote from: Dee_pntx on August 01, 2010, 02:41:53 PM
I'm with ya on that sister! (though I don't have a lesbian mom..

Whats difficult about the LGB and T question is that our experiences make us biased toward one direction or another, if an LGB member helped you when needed it you would think, yeah this is great, however, if you have a bad experience then you think its a bad idea.  All I really had is bad experiences, but that doesnt mean i hate LGB people, i have a lot of LGB friends and I love them very much, in a person to person setting we are all just people, just something snaps when we are in a group.  Its almost a mob mentality, the majority rules and their agendas come before ours.  Think back to when you were a kid or perhaps playing online games, when a goal is accomplished how many people stick together to help someone missing something or another, not many, which is my biggest concern, once gay rights are accomplished most likely we will be on our own anyway, or perhaps have a few members stand with us.

Another problem is that a lot of T are stealth, and becoming vocal means outing yourself.  Outing yourself means you lost the one thing you really wanted, to be treated the way you always should have been, but sometimes I guess you have to sacrifice for the greater good.  So in a way i can see the good in LGB, because they talk for us in some respects, and we dont have to out ourselves, but like said before, will they still be speaking for us when the fight for them is over?