Susan's Place Transgender Resources

If you have ever wanted to know who is working to deny LGBT people their rights and how they are doing it, 8: The Mormon Proposition is worth seeing. 
Trailer (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m76isUF49P8#) [Website (http://www.mormonproposition.com)]

It's about Prop 8 in California and how the Mormons poured money into anti same sex marriage campaigns to work to change the California constitution.  You will be shocked at the extent they go to in order to force their beliefs on everyone else. 

Imagine what they have spent or will spend fighting ENDA.

QuoteImagine what they have spent or will spend fighting ENDA.

Imagine if they actually did do God's work and promote equality under the law.  Oh wait we are talking about the Mormons.  *Personal opinion withheld *

QuoteSpokesperson: They are the greatest threat to America.
interviewer: who the Gays?
Spokesperson: Yes

He was half right,  The Mormons are the greatest threat to America.

One of my fears is that some day the Mormons and the other christofacists will take over the country via revolution.
If that happens we (LGBT) will be hunted down and exterminated in the name of rightousness.
Makes me silently hope there is a Christian Hell. There will be alot of christians down there should it be real.

I first read about this in an article in TimeOut Chicago.
8 Is Enough (http://chicago.timeout.com/articles/gay/86455/8-the-mormon-proposition)

From the article:
In 1996, Hawaii becomes the first state to declare limiting marriage to opposite-sex couples unconstitutional. According to Karger's papers, the Mormon church is already on the offense. It conducts a public-opinion survey and learns it has a low favorability rating in Hawaii. So it forms a partnership with the Catholic Church and creates a coalition called Hawaii's Future Today, fronted by a young mother, which funnels $1.25 million toward amending the state's constitution. The successful strategy is used again in California in 2007, when the Mormon church forms the National Organization for Marriage (NOM) to lobby for the passage of Prop 8

They find out they aren't well liked in Hawaii so they make up some organization, use a young mother as their front woman and pour $1.25M into a campaign to overturn the 1996 ruling on same sex marriage. It works so they do the same thing in California. These people are devious AND dangerous!

"Mormons make up 2% of Californians but represented over 71% of the contributions for Prop 8."

I thought religion was about god, not money.

It becomes available on DVD next month, I look forward to seeing it, has been saved in my netflix queue for months.

Z

Quote from: Julie Marie on June 22, 2010, 09:02:20 AM
These people are devious AND dangerous![/font][/color]

"Mormons make up 2% of Californians but represented over 71% of the contributions for Prop 8."

Yup, so much for the 9th Commandment, "You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor"


Dawn

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Post Merge: June 22, 2010, 12:29:27 PM

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Quote from: cynthialee on June 22, 2010, 08:20:22 AM
One of my fears is that some day the Mormons and the other christofacists will take over the country via revolution.
If that happens we (LGBT) will be hunted down and exterminated in the name of rightousness.
Makes me silently hope there is a Christian Hell. There will be alot of christians down there should it be real.

Let 'em begin the hunt. I'm not a bad shot myself! They need to remember, bullets can fly both directions!

Dawn

I hate it when people use religion to justify discrimination and pretend that they have the ultimate authority to define who gets rights and who doesn't. Sounds like they are playing God to me.

Quote from: Dawn D. on June 22, 2010, 12:25:38 PM
Yup, so much for the 9th Commandment, "You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor"

Dawn

Sadly, for all their claims, these people are not Christians. Even more so than the SBU and their ilk.

They have their own book and suppliment this with their leader who they claim gets messages from god and speaks these.

I should add that, here in Europe, the separation of Church and state that the US constitution offered was initially welcomed. But like every revolution that has ever occured, the end result has been somewhat worse than what they sought to eliminate.

Ours is a gradual, developmental approach. We seem to have put these religions into the context they deserve.

Quote from: spacial on June 22, 2010, 12:58:15 PM
I should add that, here in Europe, the separation of Church and state that the US constitution offered was initially welcomed. But like every revolution that has ever occured, the end result has been somewhat worse than what they sought to eliminate

This would be, that the original reasoning behind "freedom of religion" was to escape the fundamental nut jobs that were running around the Middle East and Europe putting people to death for what? Being questioning and different!

And, now we come full circle here at home in the U.S. (as well, in some other parts of the world) with those whom have forgotten the very purpose of the principle intended and returned to the controlling, discriminatory and oppressive tendencies that derive from people who wish to do so. All in the name of salvation and righteousness.

Dawn 

The problem in the US is the combination of the official recognition of religion in the form of tax breaks and other protections combined with the intentional exclusion from schools.

The first is empowering. The Mormons and others can deliver huge amounts of cash because of it.

The second has been used and misrepresented as an attack on the welfare of children, which needs to be defended. Hence their excuse for taking radical political stances.

But the reality is, most of these so called religious groups are political and simply using the liberities granted to religion as an excuse.

It has often been said that America's greatest enemy is itself. That when America does collapse, it will be from within.

You are saddled with a constitution that itself, has taken on religious importance and significance. These religious types will often and deliberately exclude those parts of the Bible they find inconvienent. Not killing for example.

Yet the constitution is held to be absolutely sacrosanct, even when the wording is either embiguous or clearly different from the general interpertation. The second Ammendment for example.

But you are all saddled with it, in its entirety.

Dang!!! I need new glasses... I thought it said "The Mormon Prostitution"

spacial:

Quote from: The United States Constitution Online The Second AmendmentA well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

Pretty well self explanatory to me.  It establishes a regulated army of citizen solders, aka The National Guard..  And it also establishes the fact that we have the right to keep and carry weapons.  Both of these are for the defense of the United States.

But most important is the First Amendment.

Quote from: The United States Constitution Online The First AmendmentCongress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

While there is no Official religion in the United States, which we all know is unofficially Christianity, there is nothing stopping the LGBT community from forming their own religion and get the same benefits that the Mormons get.

Maybe it is because I am American and I have been taught the Constitution that I know it and understand it.

QuoteIt has often been said that America's greatest enemy is itself. That when America does collapse, it will be from within

It may well be that we are our own greatest enemy   But Even Marx was surprised when the US did not have a revolution to adopted Communism.  But if America does collapse, another democracy shall raise from the ashes.

Quote from: spacial on June 22, 2010, 04:14:26 PM
The problem in the US is the combination of the official recognition of religion in the form of tax breaks and other protections combined with the intentional exclusion from schools.

Hi Spacial!

I hope you don't mind, I would like to address your comments quoted above. Just so that you are assured, what I say in disagreement or clarification to parts of your last post, is done so with the utmost of respect.

First. Problems? Oh yeah, we have lots of those. LOL.

With respect to recognition in our tax code regarding religion; of what ever qualifies under those codes as a religion, and the tax breaks accord them. I feel that if they are removed from said codes (and I actually support this cause), then also any other entity that operates as a tax exempt organization under the U.S. tax code, who uses that organization in a political manner should likewise be removed from tax exempt status, post haste!

QuoteThe first is empowering. The Mormons and others can deliver huge amounts of cash because of it.

Having come from a background within the Mormon Church and having a vague understanding of the financial obligations expected of the Mormon faithful, I'm pretty sure, tax exempt or not, the Mormon church among a number of other denominations would still have plenty of cash available to them to support the causes they do.

QuoteThe second has been used and misrepresented as an attack on the welfare of children, which needs to be defended. Hence their excuse for taking radical political stances.

Of course, they always want to throw the "children" out there in your face demanding protection for them based upon their interpretation and misgivings for whatever the issue. It's a typical scare tactic that becomes an effective emotional political tool toward the argument in vogue at the time. It's nearly always repulsive when it occurs and in regards to our situations and the same sex marriage issue, we know this is a red herring. However, it seems that is the last ditch effort they run to when they have no real, valid evidence to offer in support of their position.

QuoteIt has often been said that America's greatest enemy is itself. That when America does collapse, it will be from within.

I'm sorry, I cannot agree that America's greatest enemy is itself. That position would be the antithesis of the same position that these religious wacko's feel that we represent to and within this country. Instead, as the "great melting pot" that we are, there is going to be disagreement and there is going to be some ugliness to our process. However, if our system was more of a threat to itself from within, then we would have never reached the milestones we have. Such as the successful end to our own civil war in 1865. As close as that event was to the point you raise, it still did not destroy us as a nation. Nor our constitutional system. One hundred years after that event we achieved the 1964 Civil Rights Act which equalized our voting system and effectively ended racial segregation. Was it perfect? No, far from it. But, here is the beauty of our system. We can change what needs to be changed for the betterment of those who are oppressed if the will is there to do so. And, if our politicians don't respond to our will as a people, we can give them a new mailing address in November!

QuoteYou are saddled with a constitution that itself, has taken on religious importance and significance. These religious types will often and deliberately exclude those parts of the Bible they find inconvienent. Not killing for example.

"Saddled with a constitution"? I can't agree with that assessment. I think we are lucky and fortunate that we have the constitution that we do. I am maybe one of that few "conservatives" that feel that our constitution is a living, breathing document; as is so often a thought laid at the feet of "liberals" in their beliefs about our constitution. What's wrong with it being thought of this way? If it is not a living, breathing document then our founders should never have placed within it a method of adding to it or deleting from it as our needs in society dictate!

As for the religious elements wrapping themselves within it. Yes, I agree that they do pick and chose their parts of it and those parts within the Bible that suit their own benefit and convenient interpretations. I just think we need to call them on every single one of their self-empowering misinterpretations that we find them gripping to in their fear based false theories and accusations.

QuoteYet the constitution is held to be absolutely sacrosanct, even when the wording is either embiguous or clearly different from the general interpertation. The second Ammendment for example.

As for the Second Amendment. It's been, and is getting even more settled in our court system by recent U.S. Supreme Court rulings, that it means what it says and has been interpreted as meaning for the last 220+ years. So, we'll just have to agree to disagree on that one.  :)

Again, Spacial. No disrespect is intended nor arrogance meant to fly against the opinions you've offered. I value your thoughts as much as any other person out there! I just have rather strong pro-U.S. Constitution opinions.


Dawn   

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Post Merge: June 22, 2010, 06:57:48 PM

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Quote from: Janet Lynn on June 22, 2010, 05:19:30 PM

But most important is the First Amendment.

While there is no Official religion in the United States, which we all know is unofficially Christianity, there is nothing stopping the LGBT community from forming their own religion and get the same benefits that the Mormons get.

Janet, please correct me if I'm wrong about what you meant. However, when we refer to our country as a "christian nation" or the official, unofficial religion is Christianity in America, I get a bit tense. Usually I respond that way when I hear the likes of Sean Hannity on Fox or some other individual make such a statement, as though it were actually written into the Declaration of Independence or the U. S. Constitution. I don't think that is what you meant though. And, I apologize in advance for placing your name and that of the likes of Hannity in the same paragraph, lol. Believe me, I have much more respect for you than I will ever have for him!

Back to my point. There is plenty of evidence that supports the truth that this country was never founded as a "Christian" nation. Nor intended to be thought of as such. In 1791 George Washington negotiated and signed a treaty with then Tripoli (now Libya) in North Africa. In that treaty it states very clearly that, "As the government of the United States of America is NOT IN ANY SENSE FOUNDED ON THE CHRISTIAN RELIGION,......". That seems pretty unambiguous to me.

John Adams, Benjamin Franklin, Thomas Jefferson, James Madison and even Abraham Lincoln, they all have made public comments and declarations about the miss-assumed intent or idea of Christianity being somehow thought of as a foundation of our government and the pitfalls associated with that premise.

Dawn

I really didn't mean to open any cans of worms here.

I was attempting to suggest that the very different cultural and social developemnt between Europe and the US is based upon the gradual development and change in constitutional practice in Europe. Whereas, the continual reference to the constitution and its intention is a benchmark in the US which tends to make change difficult.

The relative power of religious organisations in the US is a case in point. Having been constitutionally excluded from government, while having constitutional legitmacy, they have ended with more legislative influence than most other interst groups in the US. This level of influence is seen frequently as rather alarming by many here.

I appreciate the second ammendment, though the way I read it, the reference to people is as a body, rather than as individuals.

I understand the reverence that many Americans place in their second ammendment rights. I apppreciate the enormous numbers who are regularly murdered by some nutjob with a gun is seen as a price to pay. I certainly wouldn't seek to interfere. But I do remanin curious why this constitutional provision is not granted to those on death row. It does seem sad that red blooded Americans, facing their ends cannot own a gun like everyone else.

But I'm sure this all makes perfect sense to you.

I have heard a lot of stories about Karl Marx. Having read some of his work and many others aprasals of it, I often wonder why so many Americans haven't realised that, America Europe and many other societies are progressing quite well along the gradual path he predicted. (Or perhaps I shouldn't be mentioning it. Sorry).

The statement that America's greatest enemy is itself was not intended to be critical of demeaning. Rather an observation. A similar observation has been made in the past using the term, hyphenated Americans. It seems that so many groups need to spend so much effort demanding equality. The end result is yet another diverse community with privelege.

America is a nation of separate communities, each jealously guardng their special rights. Each looking for any justification to claim offense or to demand privelege. While researching Oprah winfrey, for another thread, I read of an incident in Paris when she arrived at a store, 15 minutes after closing and was refused entry. She claimed this was some sort of racial slurr.

QuoteWinfrey arrived fifteen minutes after the store's formal closing time. Winfrey believed she would have been allowed in the store if she were a white celebrity. "I know the difference between a store that is closed and a store that is closed to me", explained Winfrey

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oprah_Winfrey#2005 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oprah_Winfrey#2005)

Those of us who know Paris well would find this both very funny and really quite rude. But are we permitted to say that Oprah winfrey is a rude, semi literate ass whose skill is playing the race card?

But I'm sure that the development of such special privelege based upon an accident of birth suits Americans well. The irony is not lost on Europeans as we continue to dismantle the structures that the founding father claimed to be so aggreved about. And no-doubt would have Karl Marx feeling quite proud.

But in any case, we all really should try to stick to the matter in hand. Creating an environment where people can express themselves openly without fear of attack from those that don't like change.

spacial,

Most of Europe, if not all, were at one time a monarchy.  The US was founded with the Constitution and every law is based on it.  Even though sometimes it does not seem like it.

QuoteThe relative power of religious organisations in the US is a case in point. Having been constitutionally excluded from government, while having constitutional legitmacy, they have ended with more legislative influence than most other interst groups in the US. This level of influence is seen frequently as rather alarming by many here.

I emphasize this portion because, not only does this happen in the rest of the world, but here also.

QuoteBut I do remanin curious why this constitutional provision is not granted to those on death row.

Anyone convicted of a felon and certain misdemeanors give up a lot of their rights.  Some of which is the right to keep and bear arms, and the right to vote.

QuoteAmerica is a nation of separate communities, each jealously guardng their special rights. Each looking for any justification to claim offense or to demand privilege.

Yes we are.  American has been call the "Great Melting Pot".  And those communities, such as the Trans-community, only wish to be afforded their basic right granted to them.  There are groups who will use the Constitution to deny those rights.  But the nice thing about the Constitution is that it is changeable.  Thus the amendments.  Like the 19^th.

Quote from: FindLawSection 1. The right of the citizens of the United States to vote shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or by any State on account of sex.

Section 2. Congress shall have power to enforce this article by appropriate legislation.

ENDA is a similar type of law.

As for Ms. Winfrey.  She is only half right.  Had Paris Hilton done the same thing, she might have gotten in.  Who knows.  But even here when a store is closed it is closed.  But to play that card was uncalled for.

QuoteBut in any case, we all really should try to stick to the matter in hand. Creating an environment where people can express themselves openly without fear of attack from those that don't like change

Absolutely.  Well said.

With a bit of a front row seat on the California Proposition 8 challenge, (I live only about 8 miles from the Courthouse the Federal Court suit is taking place in) I am aware of a Friend Of The Court Brief that takes the position that marriage should not be used in ANY State or Federal law because of its ussurpation by various religions as a religious practice.  It also suggests that clergy which are currently given limited status to administer the civil contractual oath be relieved of the right to do so.  Net result, as far as the government goes, you have a Civil Contractual Union no matter if you are hetero-sexual or same sex unionist.  If you want to go to church and have a party afterward, call it what you will, marriage or holy fungus, or a bad hair day. I'm not betting that this type of good sense will prevail, but it has been presented. 

Its a bit like cutting the baby in two, and we know how that one ended-- or did it?

My comments on the US style were and always are intended as a reference. It is not my wish, certainly not on Susan's to get into a debate about the nature or vaibility of the US. I wish you all well, as I'm sure we do for all nations.

But Janet, I really wish you would stop and think about the notion of a transgendered community in the US.

The feminists and their fairweather supporters can identify themselves as liberated women when it suits them. Black people can come out chanting about being black. Many, but not all, gay people often feel little compunction with wandering around with a big gay badge on.

But, for the most part, transgendered people, of all progressions, seek to integrate. They want their documents altered and many even seek to conceil their past, in an effort to live fully in their chosen genders.

Do you really believe that most transgendered people would feel happy wearing a big badge?

Do you really think that most transgendered people will be comfortable living in a society where laws and regulations govern and protect their special interests. Special toilets for transgendered people? Special clubs? Quotas for companies to employ?

Quote from: spacial on June 23, 2010, 11:50:07 AMDo you really think that most transgendered people will be comfortable living in a society where laws and regulations govern and protect their special interests. Special toilets for transgendered people? Special clubs? Quotas for companies to employ?

At this rate I'll take it. As it stands we are a free target.

spacial,

There is a transgendered community, through out the US.  Do we all live in a ghetto?  No, we live where we can, not necessarily where we want to.  Thus ENDA.  Do we get to work where we want? No, some are lucky to even have a job.  Thus ENDA.

All we ask for is to not be afraid of discrimination, in work, housing, healthcare.  Special clubs, or bathrooms.  No.  Then the clock turns back to the days when blacks had to drink from certain fountains, eat in certain restaurants, use certain bathrooms.

Do I think that most transgendered people will be comfortable living in a society where laws and regulations govern and protect their special interests?  You are correct.  Just as woman have laws and regulations.  Just as Blacks have laws and regulations.  Just as any discriminated people has laws and regulations.

Do I want to wear a big yellow Star on my clothing?  No.  The Nazis did that in WWII.  And then rounded up all those wearing it into camps, for the Ultimate Solution.

Yes we just want in integrate into society, and many do.  But read this forum.  How many have problems changing their b/c, drivers license, SSA records?  The very laws and regulations we seek is just to guarantee that these things can be done.

I just want the same as anyone else.  To live my life as I see fit, without discrimination or fear of being attacked.  To marry who I want.  Most want the same thing.

What is wrong with asking for the same rights as anyone else.  Nothing special.  Look to your own country.  What do you have that is special.  Does your government pay for your HRT, SRS maybe?  Those are very special privileges for Transgendered people only.  Here we have to pay for it out of pocket.

I'm sorry Janet. I don't have the energy any more to carry on this thread. Hopefully it will pass in a few days.

I do hope things can work out for people in the US.

The European way is very different but there is nothing to be gained by comparisons. Transfer isn't possible.

Quote from: spacial on June 23, 2010, 03:22:24 PM
I do hope things can work out for people in the US.

The European way is very different but there is nothing to be gained by comparisons. Transfer isn't possible.

Exactly.  Europe is very much different than the United States.  And I can understand about having on energy.

Shall we agree to disagree.  ;D

We do hope that things work out for us too.  :laugh:

I would like to know how the Roman Catholic Church, which sees itself as the only true Church, excuses joining with an organisation that is clearly heretical?  Apart from being the RCC that is!

It's just typical religion/politics... "We'll get along for the moment because we have a common enemy"

Quote from: Vicky on June 23, 2010, 10:15:08 AM
With a bit of a front row seat on the California Proposition 8 challenge, (I live only about 8 miles from the Courthouse the Federal Court suit is taking place in) I am aware of a Friend Of The Court Brief that takes the position that marriage should not be used in ANY State or Federal law because of its ussurpation by various religions as a religious practice.  It also suggests that clergy which are currently given limited status to administer the civil contractual oath be relieved of the right to do so.  Net result, as far as the government goes, you have a Civil Contractual Union no matter if you are hetero-sexual or same sex unionist.  If you want to go to church and have a party afterward, call it what you will, marriage or holy fungus, or a bad hair day. I'm not betting that this type of good sense will prevail, but it has been presented. 

Its a bit like cutting the baby in two, and we know how that one ended-- or did it?

Most all of us know that the Roman Catholic Church was involved in almost every government throughout Europe prior to the development of the US as we know it today.  When a new ruler, king, queen, monarch, dictator, whatever, was installed, the RCC was there presiding over and sanctioning the event.  The RCC was there for almost every major decision and never hesitated to use their growing power to influence government to do things their way, and increase their power. 

The people who drew up the US Constitution wanted to end that.  But the problem was the people colonizing the US were mostly christians and I'd imagine they believed the Constitution said they have the right to practice christianity without interference and the RCC was more than happy to help. So, rather than taking the literal meaning, freedom for all to practice whatever religion they wanted without persecution, the citizens created a new, unwritten, rule and turned freedom for all into freedom for christianity.

In a very real way, I think that opened the door for the US to become a christian nation, regardless of what the Constitution said.  People, not the Constitution or even written law, decide what is right and wrong.  And here, it's majority rules, minorities get quashed, regardless of what the Principles of Democracy say.

And anyone who opens their eyes enough sees that the people with the money dramatically influence lawmakers to "see things" their way.  The Mormons exert enormous pressure on their members to donate huge amounts of cash to fill up their coffers.  And their leadership uses that to change laws, create new ones and sway voters so that this country is more to their liking.  And no politician, no government authority, will stand up to them.  They have too much financial clout. So much for separation of church and state.

Separation of church and state only exists when the church has no money.

The Mormon church owns and runs many corporations and businesses. When I worked in the financial sector, the state of Utah was a small but very active member as far as trading was concerned.

This isn't about God or morality; this is about power and influence. In Salt Lake City there are homeless LGBT people because they were kicked out of their homes. Why? Because of who they are.

What galls me is when the Mormon leaders say that we're the greatest threat to society and marriage. Divorce is the great threat to marriage. I've gotten to the point that if anyone says that my being transgender is a threat to marriage and society, I will confront them.

Gennee    

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Post Merge: June 24, 2010, 12:38:33 PM

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Quote from: Julie Marie on June 24, 2010, 05:53:45 AM
Most all of us know that the Roman Catholic Church was involved in almost every government throughout Europe prior to the development of the US as we know it today.  When a new ruler, king, queen, monarch, dictator, whatever, was installed, the RCC was there presiding over and sanctioning the event.  The RCC was there for almost every major decision and never hesitated to use their growing power to influence government to do things their way, and increase their power. 

The people who drew up the US Constitution wanted to end that.  But the problem was the people colonizing the US were mostly christians and I'd imagine they believed the Constitution said they have the right to practice christianity without interference and the RCC was more than happy to help. So, rather than taking the literal meaning, freedom for all to practice whatever religion they wanted without persecution, the citizens created a new, unwritten, rule and turned freedom for all into freedom for christianity.

In a very real way, I think that opened the door for the US to become a christian nation, regardless of what the Constitution said.  People, not the Constitution or even written law, decide what is right and wrong.  And here, it's majority rules, minorities get quashed, regardless of what the Principles of Democracy say.

And anyone who opens their eyes enough sees that the people with the money dramatically influence lawmakers to "see things" their way.  The Mormons exert enormous pressure on their members to donate huge amounts of cash to fill up their coffers.  And their leadership uses that to change laws, create new ones and sway voters so that this country is more to their liking.  And no politician, no government authority, will stand up to them.  They have too much financial clout. So much for separation of church and state.

Separation of church and state only exists when the church has no money.

Julie, the second paragraph brings up quite a few points. Many people have the idea that America is a Christian nation. Looking at it now, this surely cannot be said. The truth is America was founded on Christian principles. Though I am a Christian, I believe that people have the right to choose how they worship. I will defend their right to do so.

One of the tactics used by RCC was fear. If you didn't follow what they said, you were a heretic and doomed to hell. The leaders were your Pharisees. People brought the same fears to America, hence the many witch trials in which innocent people were murdered. Transgender people were among many who killed.

I've had a chance to educate some people about this.

Gennee

I apologise once again for appearing to attack America, again, but America has as much claim to be run on Christian principals as Democratic People's Republic of Korea has to being demoncratic.

It's deeds that count.

(When I'm feeling a bit better I'll probably post a better rant).

Hi Spacial!

I don't see your comments as an attack. It's your perspective vs. others. Nothing wrong with that! I do agree (to a point) with your last comment:

QuoteAmerica has as much claim to be run on Christian principals as Democratic People's Republic of Korea has to being demoncratic.

Running a country on Christian principles is a sure fire way to a return to the "good 'ol days" of inquisitional witch hunts! I have no problem with politicians and/or political pundits who hold and conduct their own lives within their Christian values. I do have issue when they cross the line and arbitrarily make statements to suggest that this is a "Christian nation", and that these values should hold weight in governing my life when the indisputable evidence suggests otherwise.

The light needs to be shown upon these people for what they really could represent. I can't go as for as you did in an earlier post, however, I will say that they do represent a significant threat to our country if their views are established as a fact in conduct of governance.


Dawn   

QuoteAmerica has as much claim to be run on Christian principals as Democratic People's Republic of Korea has to being demoncratic.

There is a major difference between running a country based on Christian Principles and allowing a religious group to run a country.  And I fear that America is allowing a religious group to take control of the country.

Prop 8 is/was an attempt to control America by the Mormons.  And by allowing these kinds of groups to lobby Congress is allowing them to dictate policy.  Why do you think America is looked at as the Great Satan by the Islamic world.  Can anyone say "The Great Crusades"?

I blame the religious policies of the last regime for 9/11 as much as I do the terrorists.  And don't think that I don't support out solders, because I have friends over there.

I support the troops, not the crooks who sent them there.

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Post Merge: June 24, 2010, 06:44:32 PM

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Quote from: Janet Lynn on June 23, 2010, 02:50:01 PM
spacial,

There is a transgendered community, through out the US.  Do we all live in a ghetto?  No, we live where we can, not necessarily where we want to.  Thus ENDA.  Do we get to work where we want? No, some are lucky to even have a job.  Thus ENDA.

All we ask for is to not be afraid of discrimination, in work, housing, healthcare.  Special clubs, or bathrooms.  No.  Then the clock turns back to the days when blacks had to drink from certain fountains, eat in certain restaurants, use certain bathrooms.

Do I think that most transgendered people will be comfortable living in a society where laws and regulations govern and protect their special interests?  You are correct.  Just as woman have laws and regulations.  Just as Blacks have laws and regulations.  Just as any discriminated people has laws and regulations.

Do I want to wear a big yellow Star on my clothing?  No.  The Nazis did that in WWII.  And then rounded up all those wearing it into camps, for the Ultimate Solution.

Yes we just want in integrate into society, and many do.  But read this forum.  How many have problems changing their b/c, drivers license, SSA records?  The very laws and regulations we seek is just to guarantee that these things can be done.

I just want the same as anyone else.  To live my life as I see fit, without discrimination or fear of being attacked.  To marry who I want.  Most want the same thing.

What is wrong with asking for the same rights as anyone else.  Nothing special.  Look to your own country.  What do you have that is special.  Does your government pay for your HRT, SRS maybe?  Those are very special privileges for Transgendered people only.  Here we have to pay for it out of pocket.

I have a feeling that this approach, for transgendered people, will present more difficulities than it solves.

Women, black people, the disabled, all are specifically identifiable. The level of integration each of these seeks is based upon being who they are. Women, being women but having the same rights as men. Black people being black people but not haing their rights decided on the basis of their skin colour. (And bloody right too!! ). The same for disabled people.

Gay people also are generally happy to be seen as gay. Their hurdle was to overcome the notion that being gay means being promiscuis.

But Transgenderd people seek to fully integrate into society in their chosen gender. They don't seek identification, mosty. They don't seek any special arrangements.

The first hurdle transgendered people need to deal with is identification. To have public records altered to reflect their preferred gender.

Here in the UK it is not possible to have birth certificates altered, usually, even for a name change. But other records can. Back in the 80s, when banks were issuing photos on credit cards, they offered transgendered customers two cards, each with a photo of their preferred gender.

The problems come when you continue living in the same community as you were before your gender change.

Having specific laws to protect you in these situations might not work. In another thread there is the story of a transgendered woman working in air-traffic control, accused of exposing her breasts. She is currently suspended. (According to the story).

What this demosntrates is that, there are more ways to skin a cat.

Here in the UK there are laws protecting employees from harrissment and unfair dismissal. When I worked in the NHS, I was for a time, as shop steward for my union. People would be charged with extraordinary offenses. Everyone knew these were a crock, and they were caused by some new manager taking a dislike to some employee. I had a woman, with 34 year experience, mostly in junior management charged with failing to support an 18 year old. That woman, in her late 50s was moved to a different area where she was forced to work, early shifts, late shifts and night shifts each week. She almost died.

Such laws work for back people because the vast majority find any marginalisation of people because of their race to be distastful and quite disgusting.

Such laws work quite well for women. In largely female environments, they tend to be irrelevant. In largely mixed environments, most women and any men will support the woman. In largely male environments, it is generally quite easy, if necessary, for the woman to demosntrate some sexual harrassment. Few employers want to risk that.

What these demonstrate is support. Support for the majority of fellows.

Transgendered people, regretably, don't have that support.

A law is an irrelevance if people ignore it.

I finally broke down and bought the DVD through Amazon.  It came today and we watched it tonight.

It's getting near sleepytime and I'm too tired to go into a lot of detail.   But I will say parts of it were scary!  The things these Mormons do to eradicate homosexuality boarders on Nazi concentration camp tactics.  These people are dangerous!

Quote from: Julie Marie on August 18, 2010, 11:18:27 PM
I finally broke down and bought the DVD through Amazon.  It came today and we watched it tonight.

It's getting near sleepytime and I'm too tired to go into a lot of detail.   But I will say parts of it were scary!  The things these Mormons do to eradicate homosexuality boarders on Nazi concentration camp tactics.  These people are dangerous!

When Mormons (or any other well organized, non-splintered group) start throwing people in concentration camps - I hope more than some video will know about it.

Picking up where I left off last night (but still pressed for time)...

I kind of expected some poking fun at the Mormons for their unconventional beliefs.  What I got instead was an exposé on the LDS that was both shocking and sobering.  The extent they will go to in order to make the world the way they want it is at times criminal.  But since they are a church with billions in assets and they wield substantial power, no one in power will go after them.  Even the IRS only gave them a slap on the hand.

One man told of being outed when he was attending BYU.  The campus police called him and asked him to "stop by" because they needed to talk.  He was then subjected to torture at the hands of these thugs including being strapped to a chair, wired for electrical shock at the chest, head and testicles, and told to look at slides on the wall.  When a picture made him think of sin he was to push the button in his hand to administer electrical shock.  And if he didn't do it to their satisfaction, they would do it for him.  The man has a tortured look on his face that spoke of serious PTSD.

He also told of a friend of his who had undergone the same thing, except this man refused to push the button, so they did it for him.  The damage from the electrical shock was so severe it had destroyed the nerves in the genital area.  The man later committed suicide.

Another gay man tired his best to fend off gay feelings but he just couldn't stop it.  One day, in his 20's, he walked into a LDS church and blew his brains out.  He had pinned to his shirt a note that said "Do not resuscitate."  His parents, devout Mormons, were later interviewed and they said their son's death was "a relief".  They also said the only opinion they have is the one the church has.

Talk about brainwashing!

One family gave their entire life savings, $50,000, to the Prop 8 campaign because they were told to by their prophet, Thomas S. Monson.  Mormons believe whatever their prophet says is the same as if it came from god.  The family had four small children and the money they saved over the years was for the kid's college.

There was no poking fun.  Instead it was the story of a religious institution that breaks the law and gets away with it.  The IRS says in its tax code no non-profit organization shall be involved in political action (sic) or they will lose their tax-exempt status.  The Church of the Latter Day Saints have funneled tens of millions into anti-gay marriage campaigns but the IRS has done nothing to investigate.

Fred Karger (http://www.californiansagainsthate.com/) exposed the church with their own documents and challenged the government to investigate.  In an unprecedented move, they did.  The $2,000 PAC contribution they listed in their original tax filing was upped to about $190,000, despite the fact that their own documents showed the number to be much larger.  They were fined $5,500, barely even a slap on the wrist.

Money, power, religion - a deadly combination when it is abused.  Karger exposed them for being the driving force behind anti-gay marriage campaigns in Hawaii and California.  Yet they still operate as a non-profit religious organization.

Now if you want to talk politics, we'll get into that later.  It's time to hit the links!

Just been re-reading some of my posts in this thread. I know I have offended some. I do apologise.

Spacial:

Perhaps the greatest right that any one has in regard to any government is the right to both laugh and cry about it, and maybe at the same time.  We "bloody yanks" offend each other so often (like about 45 times today alone) that it really makes little difference about who the offense comes from.  Listening to the views of those who see us from outside the fish bowl is a test of our commitment to whatever ideals we truly believe in and honor.   ;)

Thank you Vicky.

I do believe that each of us, no-matter where we are, should take an interest in the management of other societies. Firstly, of course, those there can correct our misconceptions. But equally, each of us, almost everybody in the world, are ordinary people, without power. Societies need management. Kinda obvious really. But government exists for the benefit of society and I deny the right of any government to control how their people choose to live. People must decide. Societies progress at their own pace. But they must alwasy move forward.

My apology here was made and remains because this forum was not really the place to agitate people. Moreover, the sensitivity of the subject in hand deserved a little more support for those affected.

I'm trying to stay back for this very reason. But I want to toss this out there.

As I said in my introduction, I've been raised in the Mormon church. I haven't seen the video yet, but I can imagine what it is. There's a lot of extremism in these videos, and not having been there firsthand, I can't say "Oh, that wasn't the church" but I can say "That isn't what the church teaches."

The church teaches acceptance of all people. Of course, they also believe a great deal involving sexual relations and yes, gender, and many of the privileges of the church are closed to people who don't follow the law they set forth. The church, however, does not teach to engage in "witch hunts" or extreme correctional behavior. One of the guiding principles of the church is all people have the freedom to choose how to live. That's one of the things the "Gospel" revolves around.

Tragically, the "Church" and the "Gospel" don't always agree. There's a lot of stigma, even among the members, to live a certain way. All young men are expected to go on missions. All young women are expected to marry a returned missionary and have kids. It's how they work. It's become more of a culture than a church.

It was Prop 8 that actually caused me to sit back and say "Hey, wait a second. Something isn't right." I count myself blessed to have a great amount of caring for all people, no matter who they are. And the idea that this church, which is supposed to encourage free agency, is trying to prevent it, startled me. I took a moment and asked myself "Okay, why is it our business if these people marry or not?"

The Mormon part of me says "Because it's a sacred binding, and should be taken as God intended."

The kind, openminded part counters "But not everyone believes as we do. This is saying 'believe like we do, or be wrong.'"

And it goes back and forth. I'm getting way off topic though, so let me haul it back in. I don't think that right answer is to go all up in arms against the Mormons, though as someone who is having a lot of trouble cutting ties with them, largely because my entire family is heavily Mormon, I could be prejudiced.

I just wanted to say my piece, considering my position. I don't know about how extreme these things get, since I'm an eastern Mormon, and I'm not active at that. But I still think anger will only lead to more anger, fighting, and sorrow.

Thank you Astarielle for a very well written post.  While watching the documentary, and especially after it was over and some of the atrocities members claimed had time to sink in, I found myself both very angered and frightened at the possibility a religious organization could engage in such behavior.  As time went on, I found myself wondering why I had taken on such negative emotions about an organization that all I really know is their involvement in campaigning against gay marriage.  So I stepped back for a bit.

I understand your perspective and appreciate your frankness.  But, just as I never thought the Catholic church was perfect, it seems you realize the LDS church may not be either.  And that just leaves a question of doubt regarding what these churches REALLY are capable of.

When a religious organization engages in anti-civil rights campaigns, well, there's something terribly wrong about that.  Growing up, I was taught God loves us all, unconditionally.  Therefore it makes no sense anyone who is doing something on behalf of God should ever hurt one of God's creations.  Somewhere along the line the preachings that included quotes from the Bible, "and God said", the "word of God" stuff, just didn't stick.  That was the stuff of man.  God loves us all and if we want to be more Godlike we should love us too.  It's hard to hurt someone you truly love.

Absolute power corrupts absolutely.  When I learned how Mormons view the man they call their prophet, I thought, "Oh, that's not good."  History has convinced me if you give any man too much power, he will abuse it.  The power goes to his head, he thinks he's above everyone else and makes his own rules.  Even Tiger Woods succumbed to that one.  ::) But when you make man the earthly equivalent of God, OH BOY!  WATCH OUT!

So when I found out about the Mormon involvement in anti-gay marriage sentiment (it wasn't just involvement, they initiated the movement and spearheaded the efforts, although behind the scenes), first in Hawaii then in other states, I reasoned someone had let power go to their head(s) and they were making their own rules.  And armed with $10 billion in assets and millions of devoted followers at their beck and call, they became a very real force in trying to shape our laws.  So much for separation of church and state.

Many of our Founding Fathers (US) were anti-christian.  Thomas Jefferson said, "I do not find in orthodox Christianity one redeeming feature."  John Adams wrote, "Can a free government possibly exist with the Roman Catholic religion?"  Ben Franklin was an atheist.

The point is this country was founded on the principle of freedom of religion.  But certain christian leaders will try to make you believe this nation was founded on chrisitanity.  Nothing could be further from the truth.

And that again takes me back to God and those who claim to follow God's will.  One of the traits I applied to this all loving God was truth.  So, if you are following the will of God, not only will you be all loving, you will also be truthful.  You cannot lie if you are truly connected to God.  And these religious people often times flat out lie to promote their agenda.  That's not God's will, it's man's will.

If you've made it this far in my post you may understand why I have such a problem believing so many of these religious leaders.  Too many I see as selfish people promoting their agenda regardless of the cost.  And some I honestly wonder if I'm looking at an anti-christ or maybe even the devil himself.  "Beware false prophets."

I have to admit, Mormonism, to me, looks like a very misogynistic organization - their beliefs in polygamy, hundreds of spirit wives in the after life and other things I've read - and that feeds into their anti-gay sentiment.  Allowing gays to marry will ruin their chances of getting laid in heaven.  Somehow I can't see God really creating such an afterlife.

But, no matter how you slice it, religion needs to get out of the civil rights business and if they don't they should lose their tax exempt status.

Quote from: Julie Marie on August 21, 2010, 09:48:05 AM

I have to admit, Mormonism, to me, looks like a very misogynistic organization - their beliefs in polygamy, hundreds of spirit wives in the after life and other things I've read - and that feeds into their anti-gay sentiment.  Allowing gays to marry will ruin their chances of getting laid in heaven.  Somehow I can't see God really creating such an afterlife.
.

I just want to pull this out and address it directly. I'm trying to be careful since there's still some attachments to the church, I never really explored the world outside the church so it's all I knew for 19 years, but this is wrong.

Mormons no longer practice polygamy, and if there's hundreds of spirit wives in heaven, I don't know about it. In fact, according to the teaching of the church, in order to reach the highest level of glory in heaven, you have to be married to one person in the temple and sealed together for eternity.

The reasoning, that I was told, behind being against gay marriage is, as I said, marriage is a sacred ordinance ordained by God. The purpose of it is for a man and a woman to be of one flesh and bring a family into the earth.

"...God's commandment for His children to multiply and replenish the earth remains in force. We further declare that God has commanded that the sacred powers of procreation are to be employed only between man and woman, lawfully wedded as husband and wife."
       -The Family: A Proclamation to the World.


So that is entirely true; the Mormon church encourages large families, and gay couples have no kids.

I am sorry but if procreation is the only reason for marriage, then those who can not have children should not marry.  Which it totally BS.

All it is is a reason to discriminate against another person.    Marriage is a right for EVERYONE and to use a pathetic religion to ban it because they are not part of that poor excuse of a religion is a good reason to run the Mormons out of the country, just as they did back when the nut case that founded the religion was done.

Quote from: Janet Lynn on August 21, 2010, 11:44:31 AM
I am sorry but if procreation is the only reason for marriage, then those who can not have children should not marry.  Which it totally BS.

All it is is a reason to discriminate against another person.    Marriage is a right for EVERYONE and to use a pathetic religion to ban it because they are not part of that poor excuse of a religion is a good reason to run the Mormons out of the country, just as they did back when the nut case that founded the religion was done.

:-\ See, this is what I'm trying to avoid. It's not fair to the majority of the people who believe in the Mormon church to blame them for doing what they think is right, even if you believe it's wrong. Anger will only lead to sorrow.

Back on topic, I should amend my statement, yes. Procreation isn't the only reason to marry, but it's a large part of the reason for Mormons. I agree with you, that people should marry who they love, regardless of what people think. I'm merely putting forth the facts.

Quote from: Astarielle on August 21, 2010, 12:01:51 PM
... It's not fair to the majority of the people who believe in the Mormon church to blame them for doing what they think is right, even if you believe it's wrong. ....

So even though the violation of basic human right is some thing they feel is right, the rest of the world is wrong in believing that basic human right are just that a basic human right.  Does not God teach love?  And did not Christ teach that he was the fulfillment of the law?  Does not the Bible teach to beware of false prophets?

You are welcome to your beliefs and I will defend your right to them, but where your beliefs ends is at my rights.

Quote from: Janet Lynn on August 21, 2010, 12:23:28 PM
So even though the violation of basic human right is some thing they feel is right, the rest of the world is wrong in believing that basic human right are just that a basic human right.  Does not God teach love?  And did not Christ teach that he was the fulfillment of the law?  Does not the Bible teach to beware of false prophets?

You are welcome to your beliefs and I will defend your right to them, but where your beliefs ends is at my rights.

You removed the important parts. That makes me a sad Star...what I believe is all humans were created equally, and no one has a right to tell anyone who they are or are not, nor what they can do. If it's something that hurts other people, then I will say "Well, perhaps not.",  but otherwise, if someone wants to marry a cat, I'll stand back and say "if it makes you happy."

I agree with you, this is totally out of line from the church. But getting angry will only get them defensive, and no one will be happy. I'm just moderately offended you believe I'm personally trying to tread on your rights, and a little saddened that we're reduced to insults at someones faith system.

Quote from: Janet Lynn on August 21, 2010, 11:44:31 AM
Marriage is a right for EVERYONE and to use a pathetic religion to ban it because they are not part of that poor excuse of a religion is a good reason to run the Mormons out of the country, just as they did back when the nut case that founded the religion was done.

It really saddens me that you think we have to run innocent people out of this country, America, land of the free, because the church they believe in took things a little too far, and that you would call a man a nutcase because he founded a religion you don't agree with. I would think, considering the reason we're all here, we would be a little more tolerant than that.

The whole thing is a church is using it wealth and power to deny another their rights.  That is the whole thing about Prop 8 to deny the GLBT community the same rights as they have.  But if we let one sect of a religion to run the country, we become no better than the radical religious lead countries who threaten our American way of life and freedom.

I am sorry if I offended you, but I never intended to make it personal. 

Astarielle, thank you for correcting me.  Maybe what I've learned from pro-gay marriage sources have done what I've criticized certain organized religions of doing.

But religion, religious beliefs, doctrines, bibles, churches, all have no place in the process of determining who should have what rights.  This country was formed on the belief we ALL have basic fundamental rights and one of those rights is the right to marry.  No Mormon, no Catholic, no Protestant, no Jew, no atheist has the right to take away anyone's fundamental rights.

Documents from the Mormon church itself, show it initiated an anti-gay campaign in Hawaii and funded most of it.  Gay marriage lost there.  They show the Mormon church created the National Organization for Marriage (NOM) and fund that group.  NOM has been very aggressive in fighting gay marriage in many states, all with the funding from the Mormon church and the Catholic church.  This anti-gay campaign was initiated, formed and wholly supported by the Mormon church and there is documentation to prove that.  It has all been very calculated.

The Mormons did some polls in Hawaii and found their church wasn't too well perceived.  So they launched a campaign to find a woman. "not Mormon or Catholic" to front their anti-gay marriage group.  They also found the Catholic church had a better image and went to them for help.  When that worked in Hawaii, they took that success and repeated it almost to the T in California.  They put a lot of time, effort, thought and money into what is essentially an attack on gays.

That is not my idea of doing God's will.  It's mean, vicious and if it's anyone's work, it's the work of the devil (if I were so inclined to believe in that stuff).

I would be the first to pull the lever if we had the Prophet and the Elders on the gallows but it seems to me that the level of anti Mormon sentiment expressed in this thread is perhaps a tad on the side of excessive.
just sayin'

I read the Constitution at least once a year. I need to study it more in detail because many issues will depend upon whether or not I have mmy facts straight. My question about the Mormon church is why is it depriving other people from life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness? What they're doing is hypocritical in my mind. 

What I find ironic is that a number of towns in Utah are passing anti-discriminaton laws. Could it be that some are demonstrating their faith and putting it into action?

Gennee  

Quote from: Julie Marie on August 21, 2010, 12:45:45 PM
Astarielle, thank you for correcting me.  Maybe what I've learned from pro-gay marriage sources have done what I've criticized certain organized religions of doing.

But religion, religious beliefs, doctrines, bibles, churches, all have no place in the process of determining who should have what rights.  This country was formed on the belief we ALL have basic fundamental rights and one of those rights is the right to marry.  No Mormon, no Catholic, no Protestant, no Jew, no atheist has the right to take away anyone's fundamental rights.

Documents from the Mormon church itself, show it initiated an anti-gay campaign in Hawaii and funded most of it.  Gay marriage lost there.  They show the Mormon church created the National Organization for Marriage (NOM) and fund that group.  NOM has been very aggressive in fighting gay marriage in many states, all with the funding from the Mormon church and the Catholic church.  This anti-gay campaign was initiated, formed and wholly supported by the Mormon church and there is documentation to prove that.  It has all been very calculated.

The Mormons did some polls in Hawaii and found their church wasn't too well perceived.  So they launched a campaign to find a woman. "not Mormon or Catholic" to front their anti-gay marriage group.  They also found the Catholic church had a better image and went to them for help.  When that worked in Hawaii, they took that success and repeated it almost to the T in California.  They put a lot of time, effort, thought and money into what is essentially an attack on gays.

That is not my idea of doing God's will.  It's mean, vicious and if it's anyone's work, it's the work of the devil (if I were so inclined to believe in that stuff).

Julie, it's this attitude that I'm having to counteract. It's not easy but it's something I'm doing. What I'm finding out is that many people do not know what we are about and what we go through. I'm finding that many folks really do not know their bibles more intelligently, often relying on their pastor to tell them everything. Part of knowing scripture, LGBT issues, the Constitution, or anything is doing research and study personallly. Sadly many folks have not done this.

Gennee

I respect the rights of Mormons, or anyone else, to live according to their religious beliefs. However, when it extends to legislating how I might live my life, they are trampling on my rights, as well as the rights of other religions to perform marriages which they do sanction. Separation of church and state was instituted for good reason. If they are actively involved in political lobbying, then they should pay taxes on all that money they raised.

Z

Quote from: Astarielle on August 21, 2010, 12:34:30 PM


It really saddens me that you think we have to run innocent people out of this country, America, land of the free, because the church they believe in took things a little too far, and that you would call a man a nutcase because he founded a religion you don't agree with. I would think, considering the reason we're all here, we would be a little more tolerant than that.

Astarielle,

I do respect your right to believe in the all or parts of the religion of your upbringing. I was raised Roman Catholic, but do not consider myself a part of that Church any longer. Part of my decision was disbelief. Disbelief in the actions of the men who run the Church and chose to persecute people like me. My problem is not with Christ, but with the Pope and his Bishops and Cardinals.

You'll notice I added bold to your quote. This is the only place that I take issue with you. "A little too far"? If I am not accorded full, equal rights and have been the subject of a smear campaign cleverly designed and funded to rewrite a state constitution, then I have a profound problem with this church organization. I don't know what your sexual orientation is, but they could equally go after you to squash ENDA like they did gay marriage.

I would like you to see that this is a BIG thing that this church did to us. The equivalent would be for us to try and amend the California constitution (or Hawaii or Maine or the other states where NOM works), to say that religious freedom will only be for everything accept the LDS Church. That we outlaw them.

At the very least, I believe the LDS church should be fined for breaking the political campaign laws, and that the IRS should go after those top members who signed off on fictitious tax reports. If the RCC & LDS church continue to create, fund and support front organizations like the National Organization for Marriage, then those churches should lose their tax exempt status. Creating these front groups is like a host nation allowing for, hiding and funding a terrorist organization. I consider the actions of these churches civil terrorism.

I know you personal support our rights as LGBT people to be who we are, and marry those we want. I'm only making the point that what these large churches are doing to people's civil rights is nothing short of wrong & criminal. Just my humble opinion!

No church, no politician, no organization can survive without the financial support of the people.  I realized a long time ago the Catholic church was against people like me.  So I left.  I don't know how much in donations they lost but whatever it was, they didn't get it because of their stance on transgender people.

Saying we don't agree with the policies but supporting the organization with our donations makes our words meaningless.  The Mormon church needs cash to wage their anti-gay campaigns, as does the Catholic church.  They got it in the tens of millions of dollars and they keep getting it.  Everyone who donates supports prejudice and discrimination.  If you want to stop that, stop giving them your money.  It's as simple as that.

There are a lot of really good-hearted people who are Mormon.  There are a lot of good-hearted people who are Catholic.  What I fail to understand is why they support religions that preach hatred.  I never got that and I never will.

Quote from: cynthialee on August 21, 2010, 01:17:33 PM
I would be the first to pull the lever if we had the Prophet and the Elders on the gallows but it seems to me that the level of anti Mormon sentiment expressed in this thread is perhaps a tad on the side of excessive.
just sayin'

Wow.  Is this what some of us have come to?  I cannot imagine anyone who isn't directly guilty of murder that I'd feel right about killing and even then I might reconsider.

BTW, thank you Astarielle for your frank and honest opinion on the LDS church.  We could all do with a little more tolerance - thank you for attempting to spread some.