Susan's Place Transgender Resources

I have found information on the Net about similarities between gay males and women and differences between men and women, but I can not find anything that compares gay males and MTF transgendered.  I am not talking about sexual orientation, but rather other types of feelings, differences and similarities in brain function, etc. 

As background, I am a gender confused gay male that is trying to figure things out.  Thanks for any helpful feedback.

Gay people like men.

MTF people are women.

Some women like men, some women like women.

The two are completely unrelated and any attempt to draw a correlation will end up with futile results.

I know we're often grouped in with gay people as "LGBT", and I know some MTF people can like men, but I find the assumption that the two are somehow related to be quite insulting, sorry.

I guess transgendered folk might be more open to new ideas.


Edit: <-- bisexual MTF.

simple version: gay male identifies as male and has pref for male partners

a trans woman identifies as female, sexuality is separate from gender identity, role, and expression

see https://www.susans.org/wiki/Trans_101 (https://www.susans.org/wiki/Trans_101)

Are you talking about studies that show that the sexual/arousal part of a gay man's brain can react to similar stimuli as a straight woman's?

I'm not sure, but I'd guess that the similarities stop there. Gay men are men who like men. MTF's are women who may or may not like men.

I am sure there are similarities between men who like men and women who like men, brain pattern wise.

But that doesn't have anything to do with whether they are trans or not.

I'm sure mtf women that like men would share whatever similarities that straight women and gay men have.

I wondered that too and I thought about it the big difference however is that camp men are happy as men, I am not happy with my body and am stifled by it.

Would just like to point out at this moment that all of the camp men I know (can name at least five) are not gay; and you'd never know my gay friends had boyfriends unless they showed them you.

Effeminite guys aren't necessarily homosexual guys :)

Quote from: My Name Is Ellie on June 30, 2010, 05:57:12 PM


Effeminite guys aren't necessarily homosexual guys :)

THANK YOU ;D

I have MANY str8 male friends that are so campy. I always tease them 'ur so gay'(said like the katie perry song).


Oh and to the OP. MTF Are WOMAN when they like a man it's a 'heterosexual relationship' if they happen to like woman it's a Lesbian relationship. you can't compare gay men to mtf's.

Quote from: Robertin210 on June 30, 2010, 04:49:34 PM
I have found information on the Net about similarities between gay males and women and differences between men and women, but I can not find anything that compares gay males and MTF transgendered.  I am not talking about sexual orientation, but rather other types of feelings, differences and similarities in brain function, etc. 

As background, I am a gender confused gay male that is trying to figure things out.  Thanks for any helpful feedback.

In short, gay men are comfortable with being men.  MTFs would rather be women.  If a gay man would rather be a woman, then I think they need to decide for themselves whether they are transgendered.

I'm aware of one study that says gay men and hetero women have similar brains.  But, I'm really out of my league and couldn't go into the specifics of the study, I'd have to research it.  There may be some here that could explain that better.

BTW, I did not mean any offense to anyone.  I understand that sexual orientation and gender are quite different, but many gay men also consider being gay as part of their identity (not just who they sleep with).

I am a gender confused gay male and trying to figure out my identity.  I guess I'm trying to figure out if my emotions, thinking pattern, and self-identity is gay or transgendered.

I'm not really sure what it means to be either a man or woman.  I've had a testosterone deficiency since childhood and I think it has probably affected my development.

Thanks for your understanding and comments.

If you're asking about the brain studies, there aren't enough of them, and a lot of brain studies of gay men have been either inconclusive or conflicting. It seems that gay men (in general) have a few brain characteristics that are like women's, but others that are hypermasculinized. And the very few trans women who have been studied seem to have classically female brains in terms of morphological characteristics/relative size of structures, but they were studied after years of HRT so cause and effect are uncertain.

As for your personal identity...consider this: would you still feel the way you do about your gender if you were attracted to women? Or is your effeminacy specific to the context of being gay/relating sexually to men?

Quote from: Robertin210 on June 30, 2010, 07:15:56 PM
I am a gender confused gay male and trying to figure out my identity.  I guess I'm trying to figure out if my emotions, thinking pattern, and self-identity is gay or transgendered.

I'm not sure if either of the first two things make somebody trans, it's more the third.  Do you feel like you are a woman, or that you should be a woman?  If so, you may be trans.

Many, if not most, trans people do share thinking and emotional patterns with the sex they identify with (especially AFTER HRT) but don't let that fog things up, you could certainly have one without the other.

HRT does make your brain work more like your target gender, after being on it for about a year I have no doubt about that.

Quote from: ƃuıxǝʌ on June 30, 2010, 10:49:42 PM
Well, you have a problem right there, as we have lots of people who are gay AND transgender on these forums.

I think you're misunderstanding, vex - the OP knows s/he is attracted to men, but isn't sure of his/her gender identity. I didn't read any anti-trans-gay feeling, just an honest question ("How do I tell if I, a male-assigned person who's attracted to men, am a feminine gay man with a hormone imbalance or a straight trans woman?")

Quote from: kyril on June 30, 2010, 07:34:21 PM
And the very few trans women who have been studied seem to have classically female brains in terms of morphological characteristics/relative size of structures, but they were studied after years of HRT so cause and effect are uncertain.

Actually for some reason a lot of people aren't aware but there was another study done that included controls for that and got the same result.

Quote from: Ashley4214 on June 30, 2010, 11:13:26 PM
Actually for some reason a lot of people aren't aware but there was another study done that included controls for that and got the same result.

Oh, that's good! Any chance you have a link handy, or a name of the study/author?

Quote from: kyril on June 30, 2010, 11:18:35 PM
Oh, that's good! Any chance you have a link handy, or a name of the study/author?

Here ya go http://jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/content/full/85/5/2034 (http://jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/content/full/85/5/2034) 

;D

The only major issue with this one is a very small sample size, otherwise it does take into account the possibilities ignored by the first study (hormonally induced changes) and includes FTM's (iirc the first did not)

Essentially, it indicates that BSTc sexual dimorphism is not significantly influenced by hormones postnatal. And does correlate with gender identification, but not sexual orientation.

Thanks!

If I'm truly transgendered, I'm confident that I am not gay since I have never experienced sexual attraction towards women.  It is difficult for me to know how I identify because I don't know how men and women really feel.  I can only compare how I feel with what others tell me about how they feel. I've had a lot of issues with my mother through out my life, and I think it probably affected how I feel about women.  I didn't really have a good female role model, other than my grandmother - but her motto is "suffer in silence"  so not that helpful.

I just found out today that my counselor gave me a diagnosis of Gender Identity Disorder.  He said that he would be happy to talk with me about it, but he is not an expert in that area.  In a way I am glad to have this diagnosis, but in a way it scares me too - something else that is wrong with me.  I'll try to look at that label as meaning - trying to figure out who s/he is.

Kyrill, you asked me if I would want to be a woman if I was attracted to women.  I don't know.  Who I am, right or wrong, seems to be deeply connected to how I relate to others.  I'm a very sensitive person and I don't do so well alone. 

If I was not going to have a sexual relationship with anyone, part of me thinks what the use is it to have female genitalia, other than the fact that male genitalia gets in the way.  The thought of being able to physically be with a man as a woman is very appealing to me both emotionally and sexually.  But, gender identification is more than one's genitalia, right?

I'm just not sure how to figure this out . . .

It is much more than your genitalia.

There's the social aspect: How do you want people to relate to you when you're not in bed with them? Do you feel drawn to the way women relate to each other? Do you get angry when/if you're excluded from "girl talk"? Do you feel inexplicably happy when you're included? If you could never be truly "one of the guys" in an all-male social group again, would you miss it? If you're already included by the girls and (partly or fully) excluded by the guys, does this feel right, or does it bother you?

Then there's the physical aspect: Do you want to lose your strength and muscle mass? Do you want to put on significantly more fat? Do you want breasts and curvy hips? Do you want thin, soft, sensitive skin that's far more delicate and very easily cut or bruised but also very easily stimulated? Do you want less body hair? Are you frustrated at how your clothes fit, not because you're not in good enough shape, but because your body doesn't seem to be the right shape at all - it's too big in some places, and it's missing the curves that ought to fill out the clothes in other places?

Then there's the mental/emotional aspect: Do you find it easier to understand women than men? Do you find that you can easily explain a woman's thoughts to a man, but are at a loss if asked to explain a man's thoughts to a woman? Do you sometimes have trouble picking up male social cues, but easily notice female social cues that men seem to miss? Are you confused by your own thoughts and feelings, especially in moments of high (sexual or physical) arousal - when you experience surges of hormones do your thoughts or feelings sometimes seem "alien" and disconcerting?

Then there's the relationship aspect: Outside of the sexual aspect, are you happy being in gay relationships? Does the dynamic between two male partners feel right to you? Or are you drawn to a heterosexual yin/yang complementarian relationship dynamic? Do your relationships usually make sense to you? To your partner? To your gay friends?

Kyril, thanks for a wonderful and thoughtful reply.  I've only recently had girl friends - something I've long wanted - and I really relate to them.  The other day one of the girls that I was only recently introduced to commented to the group that she liked me and that "he is one of us."  We talk about feelings, guys, life, and feel better by talking.  Guys seem to be more interested in fixing things and don't always value talking.  I never really fit in with the guys, especially if they start talking about regular guy stuff.  I don't mind having a beer with the guys, but honestly it is probably more because I am attracted to guys.  I often tend to gather with the women when at a social function.

Physically, I am very weak now because I have not taken my T.  Most girls are stronger than I am.  I don't want to gain more weight in general, but would not made having a little more behind.  I kind of have what I call "old man breasts"  that are larger than normal, but not large enough to be considered female.  I probably need to get the courage and see how I look as a girl if I could find a wig somewhere.  I am so self conscious that I don't know that I could be happy being a woman if I could not pass.  It is difficult enough for me to go out as a guy in public.  I used to be stronger and more macho - carried a gun for a living, but I had to force a lot of my actions to fit in and get the job done. 

I seem to understand women very well.  I can also understand where men are coming from, though I often don't see the logic in it.  In that way, I am blessed in the sense that I touch both worlds.  I'm reminded of the indigenous two-spirit people of the native Americans.  I can easily explain how a woman feels to a man, though that doesn't mean that they understand.  It has only been recently that I have been able to bounce my feelings off of girl friends and find that we are thinking the same.  When I previously did the same with male friends, they just didn't understand and thought it might be a gay thing.  I pick up non-verbal cues from both sexes and consider myself to be somewhat empathic.  I don't get surges of hormones, so can't comment on that.

Relationship wise, I never hit it off well with gay men in relationships.  I've had some great friends, but never a real love relationship.  My first relationship that I felt was special was with a self-identified straight man who treated me like a lady (I know that is another topic) but that is what really prompted my recent gender questioning.  I loved the way he made me feel, both in bed and out.  There just seems to be something different in straight men that attracts me. 

I know that I have to answer these questions, but it does help to hear what others have to say and to be able to sort of talk out loud and get feedback. 

I greatly appreciate you all, and the time and patience you have shown to me - I'm so new to this all, and today has been a particularly stressful day with getting new labels from my shrink. 

Yeah, you sound trans. I'm sorry.

You'll have no idea how you pass until you take hormones - the subtle changes that start to kick in after HRT gets rolling make a big difference. Lifelong deficiency of T has likely helped you a lot. Big hands? Feet? Adam's apple? Brow ridge? Wide shoulders? Voice?

Let your therapist refer you to a specialist - and use your girlfriends for help. Hell, if you don't feel confident discussing it with them yet, just play it off as an interest in drag.

Nice post Kyril. :)  And Robertin, you definitely sound trans to me.  It's up to you to decide whether you really are or not though.  Good luck!

I identified as a gay man for about 6 years but I've recently come to terms with the fact that that is not true. I'm a woman in a mans body and that's how I've felt my whole life.

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Post Merge: July 02, 2010, 11:36:12 PM

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Quote from: kyril on July 02, 2010, 05:02:18 PM
It is much more than your genitalia.

There's the social aspect: How do you want people to relate to you when you're not in bed with them? Do you feel drawn to the way women relate to each other? Do you get angry when/if you're excluded from "girl talk"? Do you feel inexplicably happy when you're included? If you could never be truly "one of the guys" in an all-male social group again, would you miss it? If you're already included by the girls and (partly or fully) excluded by the guys, does this feel right, or does it bother you?

Then there's the physical aspect: Do you want to lose your strength and muscle mass? Do you want to put on significantly more fat? Do you want breasts and curvy hips? Do you want thin, soft, sensitive skin that's far more delicate and very easily cut or bruised but also very easily stimulated? Do you want less body hair? Are you frustrated at how your clothes fit, not because you're not in good enough shape, but because your body doesn't seem to be the right shape at all - it's too big in some places, and it's missing the curves that ought to fill out the clothes in other places?

Then there's the mental/emotional aspect: Do you find it easier to understand women than men? Do you find that you can easily explain a woman's thoughts to a man, but are at a loss if asked to explain a man's thoughts to a woman? Do you sometimes have trouble picking up male social cues, but easily notice female social cues that men seem to miss? Are you confused by your own thoughts and feelings, especially in moments of high (sexual or physical) arousal - when you experience surges of hormones do your thoughts or feelings sometimes seem "alien" and disconcerting?

Then there's the relationship aspect: Outside of the sexual aspect, are you happy being in gay relationships? Does the dynamic between two male partners feel right to you? Or are you drawn to a heterosexual yin/yang complementarian relationship dynamic? Do your relationships usually make sense to you? To your partner? To your gay friends?

That sounds so much like me.

Just my own persective.

I call myself a gay man, because I wanted to be with a man.

I call by self transsexual because I dreamed of being a woman with a man.

Since I was very young, I wanted to be female.

But just to make things really complicated, I've been married to a woman with similar problems to my own, for almost 30 years.

It's terminologies really.

I am uncomfortable about calling myself a woman since that isn't my appearance. I hope I have a female soul but that is for others to judge of course.

I am equally uncomfortable with the notion of a woman in a man's body. That is probably true and I would never criticise anyone for using the term.

My own feeling is. I am a sane, intelegent, law abiding adult human. Like others in my situation, I should be free, completely free to express myself my own way while contributing to society.

I don't need defination. I don't need a category, or a label. I just need society to accept me for who I am in the same way as it expect and gets, me to accept others.

In a way, I would have been much more fortunate to have questioned my gender before I was put on T.  I did not really go through puberty until my early 20's, and in college I looked like a little 15 year old kid.  My voice deepened, but is not terribly low, my adam's apple is not that prominent, and I'm not sure about other facial features. I am 6'0 with long arms and legs - a result of not having T, which stops linear growth and begins development of secondary sexual characteristics. 

I'm in my mid 40's, and not the best of health.  Sometimes I think I should just ride out this life as is, but then I think, maybe I could be happier. 

I think I need to learn more about what it means to be a woman.  I don't have any girl friends my age, and as a young person I did not have that good a view of women.

Can anyone recommend a few good references on learning more about women and the feminine side? 

Thanks for the feedback all

Thats because They are nothing Alike and Should Not Be Compared.
One is a Question of Orientation The Other Is Gender
they Are As Similar as Gay Natal men and Straight Natal Woman.

I Have Been Commented on as being a Gay Man and Personally i was pretty intensely insulted.
I have nothing against gay men. In fact Many of My friends are.

Let's Just Say I Would be In BIG trouble if I Ever Compared one of Them To a Drag Queen
Because They Are 2 things that Should not Be Compared

Again, I'm sorry if I offended anyone.  If someone is trying to figure out if they are a MTF transgendered person or a gay male, it might be a valid question.  I think there is some connection since both gender and sexual orientation involves how we relate to others.  I think that there are at least a few transgendered people who started out thinking that they were gay.

I'm very new to the transgendered community, but I have quickly found this to be a very hot button.

Perhaps it would be best if a moderator just closed this topic.  Its been a very difficult day and I'm just not up to dealing with being told what I can and can not think, say, do, or ask.

Quote from: Robertina on July 15, 2010, 03:38:13 PM
Again, I'm sorry if I offended anyone.  If someone is trying to figure out if they are a MTF transgendered person or a gay male, it might be a valid question.  I think there is some connection since both gender and sexual orientation involves how we relate to others.  I think that there are at least a few transgendered people who started out thinking that they were gay.

I'm very new to the transgendered community, but I have quickly found this to be a very hot button.

Perhaps it would be best if a moderator just closed this topic.  Its been a very difficult day and I'm just not up to dealing with being told what I can and can not think, say, do, or ask.

Well being TS is usually a self diagnosed thing, you realize your different pretty early on, for me it was 5.  Maybe some of the things that happened to me happened to you as well and from them you can figure out if your TS or not.  Also remember who you are attracted to doesnt matter, and in fact can change with hormone therapy, in my case as a guy i liked women, as a woman now i like guys, pretty weird huh, but it feels pretty normal to me.

For example do you identify with females more then males on tv as role models, when doing pretend play did you naturally fall into more female roles?  Like being the one that is rescued instead of doing rescuing, have you seen the opposite sex playing and wishing you could join them?  Do you feel uncomfortable in large groups of your own sex, but feel comfortable in groups of the opposite?  Do you have in thoughts of feelings of becoming the opposite sex?  Do you hate how you look in the mirror and wished you looked different, or avoid pictures or mirrors all together?  Do you for some reason feel depressed when you someone that is really good looking from the opposite sex, for example if your a guy you see a woman and your first impulse is your depressed, then the testosterone kicks in and you want some of that, lol?

If you see a trend then you could be TS.  Look back at your life, how you thought and felt, be pure about it and really think, why did i do that?  You will probably find your answer.

Just a general note and reminder to all to try to be patient with those new to our community. There is a learning curve of sorts before one knows and grasps all the concepts and terminology. We don't want to discourage those questioning.

Quote from: Izumi on July 15, 2010, 04:19:50 PM
Well being TS is usually a self diagnosed thing, you realize your different pretty early on, for me it was 5.

The thing is, when you're five, it's so hard to even know what gender even means, or it can be. I'm pretty sure I didn't realize I was "different" when I was five; though I did soon after that. But it's a large step from "different" to "transsexual" or "a girl." I spent so much time in my life trying to figure out what it meant to be a boy or a man, trying to shoehorn my experience into that definition, that I was quite flustered, indeed. On top of that was the terrifying notion that I might be one of those awful transsexuals. How dreadful! The thought terrified me, and I did all I could to banish it from head.

In retrospect, I wonder how I -- or anybody else -- could have been so foolish. But that's what life and learning are about.

I don't believe the two-spirit nonsense.
far too many people who claim to be two-spirit or transgender have very definite one sexedness about them.
some of the men who got vaginas in my town are not female except by having the vagina.
the only people who claim MtF are like gay guys are the gang of bigots and probably closet gays who rule the Centre for Mental Health in Canada and various lesbian journalists.

Quote from: lilacwoman on July 16, 2010, 05:00:31 AM
I don't believe the two-spirit nonsense.
far too many people who claim to be two-spirit or transgender have very definite one sexedness about them.
some of the men who got vaginas in my town are not female except by having the vagina.
the only people who claim MtF are like gay guys are the gang of bigots and probably closet gays who rule the Centre for Mental Health in Canada and various lesbian journalists.

I think that is a bit harsh and I'm not sure how exactly you can make that judgement with any certainty, particularly when, if you look around you, in purely behavioural terms there are loads of natal women who behave in a pretty masculine way. Are they too just men with vaginas? I think not.

Surely the whole ethos of this place is that it is what we feel ourselves to be and indeed desire to express that makes us male or female, and not chromosomes, interest in flower arranging, attraction to males or indeed any of the other superficial and external signs that people try to apply. I'm lucky to have a reasonably good appearance and an excellent voice. I often see trans women who to my eyes look and sound like effeminate builders in drag, but I don't go around telling people that they are just men in dresses! I wouldn't be so cruel.

My first gender psychiatrist would not treat any woman who turned up at his clinic wearing jeans, or indeed anything less feminine that flowery and frilly dresses, but he was sadly misguided in his very superficial judgements and so is anyone else who tries to go down the misguided, and to me, morally questionable elitist pathway.

With respect it is how we feel inside that makes us who and what we are, and that, you may not actually see unless you know the person very well. So please be careful whom you judge. For a start you may do them an injustice, and for a second thing you probably don't see or realise the faults that they may observe in you, and indeed the way that they may judge you. For all I know you and I may, seen through the eyes of some of us here, both come across as ultra male. But hopefully no one will be so cruel as to say that.

So it really is best to "judge not lest ye be judged". Of course I don't know these people, but i still think that rubbishing them is a rather ill advised game to play.

Finally to come back to the original question I would say that mainly it is the desire to be seen as and treated as a woman, and indeed to have, as far as possible female sexual characteristics which makes the difference.

I never yet met a gay man who wanted rid of his penis, to have breasts, to lose his masculine physical strength and deep voice, and to be regarded by most men as psychologically almost a different species, yet that is exactly what most of us do desire, and therein, in a nutshell, lies the difference.

Quote from: Alyssa M. on July 15, 2010, 10:07:21 PM
The thing is, when you're five, it's so hard to even know what gender even means, or it can be. I'm pretty sure I didn't realize I was "different" when I was five; though I did soon after that. But it's a large step from "different" to "transsexual" or "a girl." I spent so much time in my life trying to figure out what it meant to be a boy or a man, trying to shoehorn my experience into that definition, that I was quite flustered, indeed. On top of that was the terrifying notion that I might be one of those awful transsexuals. How dreadful! The thought terrified me, and I did all I could to banish it from head.

In retrospect, I wonder how I -- or anybody else -- could have been so foolish. But that's what life and learning are about.

Of course when your 5 you dont realize it, its only after looking back do you see your behavior wasnt typical.  Why did i get a long with girls better then boys, why did i want to play with them? why is it when i watch voltron everyone boy's idol is the guy that pilots the red lion, but for me, its the girl that pilots the blue....?  There is a purity in being a child that you dont know what everything is, and your actions are just your own.  When you look back you realize you were like that from the beginning....

I must admit that some of the vitriol in this thread is quite surprising and off putting.  I'm starting to feel intimidated to ask any serious questions.

Quote from: Robertina on July 16, 2010, 11:42:27 AM
I must admit that some of the vitriol in this thread is quite surprising and off putting.  I'm starting to feel intimidated to ask any serious questions.

Dont be afraid to ask questions.  Just look at the posts that best help you, there will always be sideways discussion, but all in all i think we are all trying to help you.  Its interesting that you are unsure of what you are yet, you picked a female name for your avatar.  Robertina is female right?  So maybe unconsciously you might already know something about yourself.

i could be wrong though ^_^.  But, ask anything you like, i can give you honest answers based on my experience and what other people have told me. 

"Robertin"  is the Spanish diminutive affectionate form of "Roberto."  I added "a"  to make it more feminine, but then in English it sounds more like Robert-tina. 

Thanks for your encouragement.  Perhaps everyone means well, but some members can be quite harsh.  I'm very thankful to those members that have been understanding and supportive.

I just spent a lazy afternoon reading 'Self-Made Man' by Norah Vincent.  She's Amercian lesbian who decided to spend time trying to live as male and write a book about it. She quite often uses the MtF = gay remark.
The book is actually very interesting about all the differences she found between living as a lesbian and trying to appear as a straight male.
She found that virtually all the men she worked with were obsessed or obsessed about sex and though she got read as effeminate male a few times she made sure to tell people that she was not a transsexual but was  a ->-bleeped-<-.  Nowhere in the book does she meet and work with a transsexual but most of the men she met made sure they had no feminity about themselves sas this was the worst thing that could befall them.

Quote from: lilacwoman on July 16, 2010, 02:06:24 PM
I just spent a lazy afternoon reading 'Self-Made Man' by Norah Vincent.  She's Amercian lesbian who decided to spend time trying to live as male and write a book about it. She quite often uses the MtF = gay remark.
The book is actually very interesting about all the differences she found between living as a lesbian and trying to appear as a straight male.
She found that virtually all the men she worked with were obsessed or obsessed about sex and though she got read as effeminate male a few times she made sure to tell people that she was not a transsexual but was  a ->-bleeped-<-.  Nowhere in the book does she meet and work with a transsexual but most of the men she met made sure they had no feminity about themselves sas this was the worst thing that could befall them.

Men obsessed with sex? thats new? heh, that crazy testosterone, one hell of a drug.

a comedian once said "If women knew what was on mens minds most of the time, they would never stop slapping us."

I have been off the stuff for 1 year and 7 months...

Quote from: rejennyrated on July 16, 2010, 06:06:10 AM
I never yet met a gay man who wanted rid of his penis, to have breasts, to lose his masculine physical strength and deep voice, and to be regarded by most men as psychologically almost a different species, yet that is exactly what most of us do desire, and therein, in a nutshell, lies the difference.

THIS!
QFT

Allot of people don't understand the difference between a gay man and a trans woman... Especially in the "heterosexual" world

Most folks are uneducated and thus they group everyone together as either heterosexual or homosexual and this leads to an insulting misuse of terms

Trans people unfortunately bare the brunt of this misuse by ignorant people

Before I began visiting trans forums I had no clue... I knew there was a difference, but I wasn't sure of what it was

I knew I wasn't a "gay guy"... Hecks, I didn't see myself as a man at all and allot of gay men kinda bothered me

But at the same time I would find myself feeling attracted to nice strait men and would wish to be there girlfriend

I didn't want to be their gay boyfriend... I wanted to be treated like a lady and be their woman

Then there was also the fact that I was still attracted to women who were usually lesbians

Anyway, visiting these forums has helped me out allot... Not just to understand myself better, but to understand others as well

Quote from: rejennyrated on July 16, 2010, 06:06:10 AM
I never yet met a gay man who wanted rid of his penis, to have breasts, to lose his masculine physical strength and deep voice, and to be regarded by most men as psychologically almost a different species, yet that is exactly what most of us do desire, and therein, in a nutshell, lies the difference.

For a large part of my life, I had a strong aversion to vaginas.  Perhaps it was because my mother ran around naked in the house while getting ready and didn't think it would negatively affect me, though I recall being disgusted by it.  Not until very recently did I actually know the complete anatomical details of female genitalia. 

So, I never thought much about not wanting my penis until recently, yet I would have not problem with losing it.  Sure, receiving oral sex feels great, but I find it a bit disconcerting for some reason.  I would feel much better if I had female parts.  I asked my brother how he would feel if he lost his penis and it sounded like it would be the end of the world since that was the most important thing to him.  I can't identify with that at all. 

No great desire for breasts for my sake, but since it is such a big turn on for men I would not mind having them.  Never had that much physical strength, and always did feel like another species since I seem to follow the road less traveled. 

Having been celibate for so many decades, I don't feel a big need for any genitalia other than for sex, and since I am only attracted to men, sex would be with men.  I've had dear gay friends and followed the activist route for a while, but never really felt that I fit in with that group, but then I never had a swimmer's body either, which seems to make a difference in some circles. 

Perhaps since I have been a bit lost about who I am for some time, always pleasing others, yet having a strong attraction to men, perhaps this is what has made me see personal connections to gender and sexuality, to the displeasure of many folks here.  Who I am has been more about how I relate to others than what is inside.

Well I really wouldn't worry too much about those who want to get uptight. A question is just a question, and without wanting in any way to offend anyone or fuel any residual fire over this I personally feel any violent reactions may possibly say more about other peoples insecurities than the validity of your question.

I and many others here clearly understood what you were asking, and although I do think there is indeed a vast difference, I certainly don't find the question offensive in the slightest. In fact I thought it was an interesting and thought provoking enquiry from someone who is obviously feeling their way towards a new understanding of themselves.

Thank you Jenny, and bless you.  I know they are not the same, which is why I asked the question thinking responses would provide some help for me to figure out who I am. 

BTW, love your name.  I would have picked Jenny for my name (what my mother would have named me if I had been born female), but my sister has that name, so I thought it would feel funny.

Quote from: Robertina on July 16, 2010, 05:15:40 PM
Thank you Jenny, and bless you.  I know they are not the same, which is why I asked the question thinking responses would provide some help for me to figure out who I am. 

BTW, love your name.  I would have picked Jenny for my name (what my mother would have named me if I had been born female), but my sister has that name, so I thought it would feel funny.

Well Jenny genuinely was half my childhood name. My childhood consisted of being openly trans - Jenny was my female name. Then when I went through reparative therapy in my late teens I became exclusively James for a while until in my early twenties I was Rejennyrated as Jenny again.

Of course I'm a doctor who fan too so it just seemed the perfect name for me online.

Quote from: Robertina on July 16, 2010, 04:45:04 PM
For a large part of my life, I had a strong aversion to vaginas.  Perhaps it was because my mother ran around naked in the house while getting ready and didn't think it would negatively affect me, though I recall being disgusted by it.  Not until very recently did I actually know the complete anatomical details of female genitalia. 

So, I never thought much about not wanting my penis until recently, yet I would have not problem with losing it.  Sure, receiving oral sex feels great, but I find it a bit disconcerting for some reason.  I would feel much better if I had female parts.  I asked my brother how he would feel if he lost his penis and it sounded like it would be the end of the world since that was the most important thing to him.  I can't identify with that at all. 

No great desire for breasts for my sake, but since it is such a big turn on for men I would not mind having them.  Never had that much physical strength, and always did feel like another species since I seem to follow the road less traveled. 

Having been celibate for so many decades, I don't feel a big need for any genitalia other than for sex, and since I am only attracted to men, sex would be with men.  I've had dear gay friends and followed the activist route for a while, but never really felt that I fit in with that group, but then I never had a swimmer's body either, which seems to make a difference in some circles. 

Perhaps since I have been a bit lost about who I am for some time, always pleasing others, yet having a strong attraction to men, perhaps this is what has made me see personal connections to gender and sexuality, to the displeasure of many folks here.  Who I am has been more about how I relate to others than what is inside.

It is to my knowledge that typically guys dont want to part with their penis for any reason, and they feel less of a man without one, this statement you mentioned "but I find it a bit disconcerting for some reason.  I would feel much better if I had female parts", is how a lot of felt when having sex with our partners pre-transition.  That doesnt necessarily mean you TS, but it does mean you need a therapist to help you figure things out, there seems to be things you believe but you let others shape you in the way they like rather then take time to know yourself, "Perhaps since I have been a bit lost about who I am for some time, always pleasing others".  After all its easier to let others do the driving and just go along for the ride, that way if their are problems the drive is the one responsible.  At some point you have to take the wheel.  Or could be you are afraid at what you might find if you look deeper.

Anyway point is, you probably should get a therapist to help you sort things out.

I have a therapist, and the last session is where we discovered my history of pleasing and not really knowing who I am.  He is not a gender specialist, but he is the best that I can go to at the present. 

Sometimes I wonder if I went back on the T if my feelings would change, but I hate the stuff.  What got me really questioning my gender was the relationship with my last boyfriend.  He was the first man that I was ever with who identified as straight, and treated me as a girl (its a Latino a cultural thing that is difficult to explain).  He never once saw my male parts.  This was all new to me, and was a much better relationship than I had ever had with a gay man.  I liked how he made me feel, and how he treated me.  I liked how I started to feel about myself.

I made small changes, like starting to wear woman's perfume and deodorant, first because I asked him which he preferred and second because I much prefer the floral scents but never had courage to wear them.  I don't like woman's perfume on my male partner, but I like it on me.  BTW, he told me to wear what I like, but after I told him that I am wearing it more for him than me, he said woman's perfume would be nice. 

So, it is mainly through this relationship that I have allowed myself to re-question my gender, yet because of this, for me, it is closely tied to my sexual orientation, at least, how I want to sexual relate to men and be treated by them - at least my partner. 

All that said, I'm learning that I will have to put up with all the stuff that woman put up with, such as men often needing help dressing properly, not always being the most sensitive, and not taking subtle hints to well - this wasn't the case with the gay guys I new, but then, I never hit it off with them to well.

Hi Robertina.. sounds like your guy is very nice - has he got a few brothers in need of partners?

I work with gay guys and sex is their reason for living.   They are so promiscuous too. 
The one who is quite effeminate is the most promiscuous of the lot. 11 sexual incidents with strangers in 3 days!
And they talk about having chest surgery to get a completely flat chest as they hate even the slight natural bulge of the average male pectorals! How weird is that?

Take women out of the equation and men show our true selves. :)

When I take my T, yeah I get horny too, well, without it as well, but not as much - BUT, I get more turned on by emotional connection, or something sweet the guy does.  For porno and stuff, I think its much more hot to see a sexy guy that is clothed, or in shorts, than just all the junk hanging out, and much more sexy to see guys being romantic with each other rather than just having sex. 

But guys I've talked to seem to prefer the hard core pics and videos.  I was showing my brother some girly pics the other day (he is quite of age) but then I said, "oh, you would probably rather see something more romantic - a pretty girl - instead of just a girl with everything hanging out, and he said, "and you would be wrong."  I thought that was cute, but made me realize the difference.

Well, my guy can be a pain in the behind sometimes, mainly because he isn't sure what he wants and is scared to let anyone know that he likes someone that has male genitalia, even if he doesn't go there.  Part of the problem may be our age difference, but dang, having a 27 year old guy interested in me was pretty flattering! 

Sadly, no brothers - his brother died a few years ago.

Question to the guys:  were you always horny like a guy, or did this mainly come about after T? 

Are young girls  just as horny as young guys, but manifest it in a different way?

Quote from: Robertina on July 17, 2010, 11:32:23 AMQuestion to the guys:  were you always horny like a guy, or did this mainly come about after T? 

Are young girls  just as horny as young guys, but manifest it in a different way?

I was way hornier going through my first puberty than being on T now. When it came to getting off, I was much more interested in instant gratification, though emotionally I liked subtle tenderness.

Now that I'm older and on T and going through a second puberty, I find that emotional attachment makes it a lot easier to get turned on. I like the thought of foreplay more, I like the subtle queues of a woman's body language. Those sort of things make my heart flutter and get things running. Every once in a while I'll get turned on by picture alone, but it's much more exciting to be teased visually, verbally and emotionally.

only TS can go through a second puberty...everyone else just gets one.

I still have to see a "gay male" taking estrogen, jeopardizing his libido & getting rid of his precious penis through GRS.  Gay males enjoy being men because that's what they are, MEN!!!

Transsexual women, on the other hand, are female psychologically and neurologically.

Quote from: Robertina on July 17, 2010, 11:32:23 AM
When I take my T, yeah I get horny too, well, without it as well, but not as much - BUT, I get more turned on by emotional connection, or something sweet the guy does.  For porno and stuff, I think its much more hot to see a sexy guy that is clothed, or in shorts, than just all the junk hanging out, and much more sexy to see guys being romantic with each other rather than just having sex. 

But guys I've talked to seem to prefer the hard core pics and videos.  I was showing my brother some girly pics the other day (he is quite of age) but then I said, "oh, you would probably rather see something more romantic - a pretty girl - instead of just a girl with everything hanging out, and he said, "and you would be wrong."  I thought that was cute, but made me realize the difference.

Well, my guy can be a pain in the behind sometimes, mainly because he isn't sure what he wants and is scared to let anyone know that he likes someone that has male genitalia, even if he doesn't go there.  Part of the problem may be our age difference, but dang, having a 27 year old guy interested in me was pretty flattering! 

Sadly, no brothers - his brother died a few years ago.

Question to the guys:  were you always horny like a guy, or did this mainly come about after T? 

Are young girls  just as horny as young guys, but manifest it in a different way?

Given enough T anyone can be horny,  A lot of TS girls go through a slut phase that when their T is still high and you want to jump everything that moves, eventually when E is dominant it goes away and you can think clearly.  Then it kinda changes... when i was a guy and got stimulated by something i stayed that way pretty much all day until i did something about it, now that i have normal balanced hormone levels for a female, I can get excited about something then 5 minutes later think about shoes and its totally gone. 

I do have to mention a few things, being a woman things feel a lot different, when i am kissed passionately by my fiance i feel is though my heart literally skips a beat and electricity travels down my body.  Its like your whole body reacts to that.  The first time i got it, it was so intense that i thought i was having a heart attack and checked my right arm for shooting pains... but now it just feels nice. 

The best surprise was orgasms, I havent had SRS yet, so i didnt think i could get a "Female" orgasm, but turns out i could.  Its not with my fiance though, hes straight and wants nothing to do with whats down south, and neither do i, i dated a man before and i am sure he was gay, but being with him told me a lot about myself.  A female orgasm is hard to get, you cant typically get it by yourself, it involves two parts, HE has to be doing everything right in terms of motion and timing, at the same time you are putting a puzzle together mentally in your head.  If you get the puzzle together at the right time it happens and I am not kidding when i say its at least 500x stronger then your BEST orgasm as a man.  Two in a row would knock me out its so intense.  You lose control of your body, and for me when its over i cant even stand up for a minute and my legs are numb, my heart is racing, and my whole body is super sensitive.

But as for straight hardcore, i dont even watch porn anymore, and prefer a good clothed love scene where i can imagine more then i see. 

I would feel really unhappy if anyone is trying to say that I am homosexual. I would look at him into his eyes, and tell him that I am not homosexual, I'd better be called transgender. I am not saying that I dislike gay persons, but since I am not one of them, I would be mad if identified as one of them.

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Post Merge: July 18, 2010, 09:58:27 AM

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Quote from: Izumi on July 18, 2010, 05:15:37 AM
eventually when E is dominant it goes away and you can think clearly.  Then it kinda changes... when i was a guy and got stimulated by something i stayed that way pretty much all day until i did something about it, now that i have normal balanced hormone levels for a female, I can get excited about something then 5 minutes later think about shoes and its totally gone. 

I totally agree with that. After taking E for 9 days I am feeling much, much better than I used to be. I felt subtle changes are happening inside me, both physically and mentally. Everyday I spend hours before the mirror, delighted to discover the miracles happening on my skin and my body. And I can think things with a much clearer mind now, with all those crazy sex impulses are gone. I really should had started hormones earlier!

I always knew from an early age that I had intense feelings that my outward physicality didn't match my inner mindset...

(And longed for breasts and periods at puberty).... and was ghormonghastly envious of teenage girls....

But I never considered myself gay for a single moment....

And never had a sexual encounter with a man till I was at least a year or so in with HRT... and had quit my first life for good...

(Tis brain sex issues me thinks here)

http://shb-info.org/sexbrain.html (http://shb-info.org/sexbrain.html)

Go looksee.....

Cruella, thank you so much for that link!

Quote from: Izumi on July 18, 2010, 05:15:37 AM

I do have to mention a few things, being a woman things feel a lot different, when i am kissed passionately by my fiance i feel is though my heart literally skips a beat and electricity travels down my body.  Its like your whole body reacts to that.  The first time i got it, it was so intense that i thought i was having a heart attack and checked my right arm for shooting pains... but now it just feels nice. 

Thats why I love being a woman, sometimes just being held cuddled and kissed by my Fiancé, or just whispering sweet nothings in my ear, tell me Im pretty, its worth more than all the sex in the world, as for flowers, yes flowers do work, when I tolded my Fiancé I was trans, after he excepted me, he gave me a bunch of pink roses with a card which read ''your a very special Lady'' it was so beautiful.
Being a trans woman and Gay male is totally different, no connection, Gay males are men who like men, trans women are women, can be lesbean or straight, Im a ''trans woman'' who happens to be straight, I like MEN!
P

Quote from: pretty pauline on July 22, 2010, 02:27:25 PM
Thats why I love being a woman, sometimes just being held cuddled and kissed by my Fiancé, or just whispering sweet nothings in my ear, tell me Im pretty, its worth more than all the sex in the world, as for flowers, yes flowers do work, when I tolded my Fiancé I was trans, after he excepted me, he gave me a bunch of pink roses with a card which read ''your a very special Lady'' it was so beautiful.
Being a trans woman and Gay male is totally different, no connection, Gay males are men who like men, trans women are women, can be lesbean or straight, Im a ''trans woman'' who happens to be straight, I like MEN!
P

Sometimes they even walk in the rain over a mile to bring you a sandwich because you were too sick to make lunch, and you didnt even ask them too, they just do it. 

And even in your worst bad hair days where you think you look awful they think you look great, their only response, "If only you could see what i see~"...

Yeah, men are great.

If the thought of having your penis turned into a vagina does not appeal to you, you might not be an MTF transexual.  I know there are non-ops who live full time, and those peeps are TG, but I think the definition of "transexual" pretty much revolves around an expreesed desire to alter primary sexual characteristics to that of the sex not assigned at birth.  That pretty much sums it up, I think.

Quote from: glendagladwitch on July 22, 2010, 06:16:10 PM
If the thought of having your penis turned into a vagina does not appeal to you, you might not be an MTF transexual.  I know there are non-ops who live full time, and those peeps are TG, but I think the definition of "transexual" pretty much revolves around an expreesed desire to alter primary sexual characteristics to that of the sex not assigned at birth.  That pretty much sums it up, I think.

I would agree with that, but some people dont like that.  I cant see myself as living as girl if everyday i have a constant reminder of my past between my legs to depress me.  Its a driving ambition to get rid of that, at least for me. 

Quote from: Izumi on July 23, 2010, 11:47:55 AM
I would agree with that, but some people dont like that.  I cant see myself as living as girl if everyday i have a constant reminder of my past between my legs to depress me.  Its a driving ambition to get rid of that, at least for me.

LOTS of people don't like that!  many non-ops even go so far as to call themselves male lesbians in order to justify keeping their favourite toy.

All the soo called comparisons between gay men and transsexuals, attempts to classify them as being related is bull. Mainly due to the fact that every goddamn study that has taken place on the matter pretty much just compared male prostitutes with transsexual ones from the same block. I hate to say it but that is the only place where the lines blur.

All the difference in the world.   A gay male is sexually attracted to other men.   Being gay is an issue of sexuality.   Being Mtf is generally not about sexual attraction.   You feel and wish to live as a woman, be that a lesbian or as a straight woman.   Many make the common mistake of assuming that gender and sexuality are the same thing, they're not.

This is why I don't go along with the whole LGBT agenda.   The first three are about sexuality, the fourth is an almost completely different issue.

Hmm, I think some confusion and raised hackles might have been avoided if this topic was entitled, "Am I an MTF or a gay male?"

Of course this is the core of gender identification. How do you feel about strangers calling you, "sir"?
The two genders are not actually secret societies, but there is a tenuous connection between two people of the same gender even if they are strangers.
Because heterosexuality is the default there are battle lines between the genders.
Which side do you want to be on?

(A tangent: For those of us who were always attracted to woman, I think that our sexual orientation was a hindrance to considering transition.
For those of use who were attracted to men, this discrepancy was an inducement to considering transition.)

Quote from: Renate on July 24, 2010, 06:11:09 AM
Hmm, I think some confusion and raised hackles might have been avoided if this topic was entitled, "Am I an MTF or a gay male?"

Of course this is the core of gender identification. How do you feel about strangers calling you, "sir"?
The two genders are not actually secret societies, but there is a tenuous connection between two people of the same gender even if they are strangers.
Because heterosexuality is the default there are battle lines between the genders.
Which side do you want to be on?

(A tangent: For those of us who were always attracted to woman, I think that our sexual orientation was a hindrance to considering transition.
For those of use who were attracted to men, this discrepancy was an inducement to considering transition.)

Well, I sure regret having started the topic because of all the fuss, which I never dreamed would happen and I agree that your suggested title would have been better (wish I had thought of that).  Perhaps due to my wording, people may have thought that I suggested being gay and transgender was the same, but if I felt that way I would not have started the topic in the first place.  I know they are different, which is why I wanted to know what the differences were - as in feelings and how one self-identifies.  I know there are people on this board who used to identify as gay male before they realized they were transgender. 

I never met anyone that I knew was transgendered or transexual, so I only have been able to talk to people from the gay community (and not that many).    As a young person I did not have female role models who I could identify with, and not getting along with my mother and the way I was raised to think about females from the church (another topic) I think that I grew up with the wrong attitude about women. 

The more I explore on this board and the more I talk with girls, the more I feel that I am definitely a woman inside.  I would not mind at all to get rid of Mr. Johnson, and think that having a vagina would be much more who I am, yet, for a strange reason I do not have an overwhelming desire to present as a woman even if I might like to wear a blouse - I used to wear a sarong around the house.  Maybe I am repressing since dealing with low self-esteem, I don't feel that I am an attractive guy and can't imagine being an attractive woman.  Yet, when I see other woman on TV or in person, I either think wow, nice outfit or, I wish I could look like that. 

Anyway, to those of you who have had patience with me, thank you.  This is not an easy road to walk, especially living in a tiny conservative podunk town with bible thumpers and racists. 

Quote from: Ashley4214 on June 30, 2010, 11:37:46 PM
Here ya go http://jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/content/full/85/5/2034 (http://jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/content/full/85/5/2034) 

Thats an older study and by now the team have studied 13 and possibly more TS brains and all show same BSTc. 

Quote from: Robertina on July 24, 2010, 12:32:52 PMI don't feel that I am an attractive guy and can't imagine being an attractive woman.

It's not about being attractive, it's about being a guy/woman...

Quote from: lilacwoman on July 24, 2010, 12:51:03 PM
Thats an older study and by now the team have studied 13 and possibly more TS brains and all show same BSTc.

Yes thats true but the one thing they dont know is if that BSTc count and spread is the same before HRT.  No TS has been studied before taking HRT, only after, so the effect on hormones on the brain causing that is not ruled out until such time as there is a PRE-HRT TS brain, however, MRI do show TS thought patterns are different then typical male patterns, even before HRT. 

Quote from: Izumi on July 26, 2010, 01:57:43 PM
Yes thats true but the one thing they dont know is if that BSTc count and spread is the same before HRT.  No TS has been studied before taking HRT, only after, so the effect on hormones on the brain causing that is not ruled out until such time as there is a PRE-HRT TS brain, however, MRI do show TS thought patterns are different then typical male patterns, even before HRT.

I think you are thinking about the old study.  the newer study, linked above says:

QuoteHormone treatment or sex hormone level variations in adulthood did not seem to have influenced BSTc neuron numbers.

...

In the present study, 42 brains of patients were analyzed (for an overview see Table 1). The brains of 34 reference subjects (9 presumed heterosexual males, 9 homosexual males, 10 presumed heterosexual females, and 6 male-to-female transsexuals) ranging from 20–53 yr of age, together with six brains (three males and three females) of patients with sex hormone disorders were obtained at autopsy, after the required permissions had been obtained. Twenty-six of the reference subjects were the same as used in the earlier study of Zhou et al. (22), whereas eight new patients (five females, two males, and one homosexual man) were included because not enough sections were left for the present study. A Turner syndrome patient (S6) and a castrated (orchiectomized) male patient (S5) were included in the sex hormone disorder group [n = 6; see the legend to Fig. 1; S1, S2, S3, and M2 were also used in the study of Zhou et al. (22)]. A nontreated individual with strong cross-gender identity feelings (S7), which were already present since his earliest childhood, was also analyzed. In addition, we had the exceptional opportunity to be able to study the first collected brain ever of a female-to-male transsexual (FMT). The brains were matched for age, postmortem time, and duration of formalin fixation. Neuropathology of all subjects was systematically performed by Dr. W. Kamphorst (Free University, Amsterdam, The Netherlands), Dr. D. Troost (Academic Medical Centre of the University of Amsterdam, Amsterdam, The Netherlands), or Prof. F. C. Stam (Netherlands Brain Bank, Amsterdam, The Netherlands). Subjects had no primary neurological or psychiatric diseases, unless stated otherwise.

I've bolded the important parts.  They did have such a brain to study.

well like everyone else here said, gender is unrelated to Sexual orientation... u can be a mtf trans but like boys or girls or both. I had the same feeling before i started my transition... was i a gay male or a mtf trans... i figured i was trans because:

1.) i dont like people seeing me masculine ( and i dont like looking like one, i hate growing facial hair, i hate lifting because itll make me bigger, i grew an androgynous hair etc)
2.) i dont like when people treat me like a guy and always jealous of the girls... i was jealous how they can dress up, put make up on, get treated by males.
3.) Ive never like using my thing and always played the submissive role
4.) in my previous relationship, i always wanted my ex to treat my like a girl and i get very upset when he treats me differently than girls (like he opens doors for them, he talks more nicely to them, etc)

basically these 4 things are major evidence for me that i am female psychologically.
i was scared that i was transitioning for the wrong reasons, (because of the recent breakup). Changing to become a ts for me is not a sexual agenda but more like to get the treatment i have been longing for. It has been 6 months since i started hrt, i have kept my virginity even after many opportunities to sleep with hot str8 men. Im happy for this because it really proved i didnt change to get laid by str8 men.

in conclusion, dig deep :) figure out the pros and cons...Figure out the risks, and see if your willing to take those risks... list why u think ur a trans... list why u think ur a gay male and compare the two... its a search that requires time and aggressive self-analyzation. it took me about 2 years to finally decide, and i was still somewhat unsure when i first took my hormone pills but i am glad i did :) I have never been happier :D

Given the number of SEXUALITY-related posts you've made so far, I'd say you're obsessed with sex just like any other man.  Need I say more?

I've bolded the important parts.  They did have such a brain to study.
[/quote]

I was going to quote that too.

What we have to remember is that over the centuries in different cultures and despite the great trouble and hardship they imposed on themselves there have always been people who insisted on living as the opposite sex so logically the BSTc research is merely confirming what must be an actual fact.
Every day around the world there are babies born with various physical malfunctions and it would be stupid to say that the brain cannot also be malformed as it develops from some tiny speck of DNA or gene or whatever exactly it starts out as.

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Post Merge: July 27, 2010, 06:59:27 AM

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Sure, receiving oral sex feels great, but I find it a bit disconcerting for some reason.  I would feel much better if I had female parts.  I asked my brother how he would feel if he lost his penis and it sounded like it would be the end of the world since that was the most important thing to him.  I can't identify with that at all. 
No great desire for breasts for my sake, but since it is such a big turn on for men I would not mind having them.
[/quote]
I don't think Robertina would be happy as a woman on HRT or after srs.  I think he has lots of other issues that need sorting.
But to go back to his original post there are lots of differences between MtFs and masculine gay guys and also between effeminate hetero or effeminate gay guys and MtFs and I'm think Robertina is effeminate gay rather than effeminate hetero or MtF.

Quote from: lilacwoman on July 27, 2010, 06:33:11 AM
I've bolded the important parts.  They did have such a brain to study.


I was going to quote that too.

What we have to remember is that over the centuries in different cultures and despite the great trouble and hardship they imposed on themselves there have always been people who insisted on living as the opposite sex so logically the BSTc research is merely confirming what must be an actual fact.
Every day around the world there are babies born with various physical malfunctions and it would be stupid to say that the brain cannot also be malformed as it develops from some tiny speck of DNA or gene or whatever exactly it starts out as.

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Post Merge: July 27, 2010, 06:59:27 AM

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Sure, receiving oral sex feels great, but I find it a bit disconcerting for some reason.  I would feel much better if I had female parts.  I asked my brother how he would feel if he lost his penis and it sounded like it would be the end of the world since that was the most important thing to him.  I can't identify with that at all. 
No great desire for breasts for my sake, but since it is such a big turn on for men I would not mind having them.

I don't think Robertina would be happy as a woman on HRT or after srs.  I think he has lots of other issues that need sorting.
But to go back to his original post there are lots of differences between MtFs and masculine gay guys and also between effeminate hetero or effeminate gay guys and MtFs and I'm think Robertina is effeminate gay rather than effeminate hetero or MtF.

Heh, thats why a good gender therapist is needed to sort out what you are, if you dont know yourself.  For me, i knew, it was no doubt, i would rather have died then stay like i was.

Quote from: Yvonne on July 27, 2010, 05:38:07 AM
Given the number of SEXUALITY-related posts you've made so far, I'd say you're obsessed with sex just like any other man.  Need I say more?

Asking questions does not make me obsessed.  I don't relate to sex at all like a man.  I just see a bit more of a connection to sexuality and gender, but everybody is different. 

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Post Merge: July 27, 2010, 11:43:18 AM

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Quote from: Izumi on July 27, 2010, 12:27:54 PM
Heh, thats why a good gender therapist is needed to sort out what you are, if you dont know yourself.  For me, i knew, it was no doubt, i would rather have died then stay like i was.

I wish that it was crystal clear to me, but I think one big thing is that I never really allowed myself to consider the possibility, plus, even being gay was still considered a psychiatric illness during my childhood, and there was no Internet or any type of support groups available.  Plus, I had problems with my mother, and between that and church teaching about women, I don't think I had a healthy view of women, so naturally, you don't want to be something you don't like.

I hope someday that I can afford a real gender therapist.  I thought my psychiatrist could help - first time to see her today, but I left feeling worse.  She prefers the phrase "alternate lifestyle"  to gender confused and also reminded me that many people think that being gay or transgendered is a choice!  I assured her that I would never have chosen something that was so difficult.  Session started out good, but went downhill - and I probably wasted money that I could have used for a decent therapist, but I live in a tiny town. 

But, now that I have allowed myself to question my feelings and after getting feedback from you folks and girl friends, I feel more and more that I am probably transgendered.  I know that emotionally I am a woman and have a woman's brain.  I think it is more of a question of what am I going to do about it at my age and with my situation. 

I said I didn't want breasts, but maybe that is not true because I find myself seeing girls and either loving their outfit or wishing I could look like them.  I've always had man boobies, so maybe its just not as big a thing for me - I don't know yet.  But, I'm not obsessed with it.  Despite what's been said, I'm not obsessed with sex, though I love it, the emotional connection and cuddling is more important to me. 

Quote from: Robertina on July 27, 2010, 12:36:00 PM
Asking questions does not make me obsessed.  I don't relate to sex at all like a man.  I just see a bit more of a connection to sexuality and gender, but everybody is different.

You may not relate to sex like a man, but you do talk about it a lot :) Nothing wrong with that of course, but I think Yvonne's point is that gender is about identity and not about sexuality. I am like you. Sexually I am only interested in men. I lived as 'gay man' since I was 17, but I never felt comfortable with the word man, nore with being a man. I only had one gay partner (the first), the others were bi/straight. Eventually that - as well as other things - got me thinking.. It took me a long time to understand that there isn't really a connection between sexuality and gender. For me it was and sometimes still is difficult to see those things apart. At some point I asked myself: if I could never ever have sex again, for whatever reason, would I be a man or a woman? I am a woman.

Quote from: Riannah on July 27, 2010, 05:54:19 PMAt some point I asked myself: if I could never ever have sex again, for whatever reason, would I be a man or a woman? I am a woman.

To me it still seems that there is a connection between gender and sexuality.  Maybe I am wrong, or maybe it is due to a culture that has very strong gender roles where men and women of any sexual orientation are expected to conform to the role. 

If I ask myself who I would be if I could never ever have sex again, my first response is:  does it matter?  What is the purpose of gender?  I think I feel like a woman, and though I can often appreciate where men are coming from, I don't really relate. 

I think I'll just have to keep exploring my feminine side and see if that is the real me.  I think I feel like a woman inside, I just don't feel like one on the outside and I don't feel others view me that way, except for a couple girl friends. 

Some of my threads have been about sex, but asking such questions helps me to better understand male and female dichotomy.  I have received a lot of helpful information, and some not so helpful.  SRS is a big thing and I want to fully understand that, which involves asking questions about sex and sex organs.

I know that women think about sex too (my 19 year old girl friend sure does and enjoys it very much) but in a different way and perhaps less frequently than men.

In this forum I've also talked about clothing, Star Trek, love, hair, makeup, etc.  I don't think it is accurate or fair for anyone to say that I am obsessed with sex, unless it is my boyfriend - but he never did.

Wouldn't let Yvonne's comment get to you.

Like most here, I like talking about sex and sexuality. One of the really great things about Susans is that we can without the superlatives that normally accompany it.

For me, I can talk frankly about my personal feelings and know that others are reading them positively, without judgement or any disdain.

The worst bit is when the server is down.  :D

Quote from: Robertina on July 27, 2010, 06:38:35 PM
If I ask myself who I would be if I could never ever have sex again, my first response is:  does it matter?  What is the purpose of gender?  I think I feel like a man, and though I can often appreciate where men are coming from, I don't really relate. 

I can only speak for myself, but to me it matters a lot!

What is the purpose of gender? To me the purpose of gender is: it is who I am.

Yeah, I guess you should continue to explore your feminine side. It doesn't sound to me like you are ready for transitioning, not at this time anyway, but that's just how it sounds to me. You say you don't feel like a woman on the outside, but I think that many ts felt that way before they started transition. They feel woman on the inside and they make the outside match with the inside. Eventually others would view you as woman too, hopefully. Are you trying to look like a woman on the outside? Do you feel the need to? I personally never visited a ts forum before I wanted to become female on the outside too.

About srs, just try to take one step at a time and not worry too much about what will most likely come next. It's a long process. At this point, I don't want to think about srs too much, but I'm pretty sure I will want it and need it eventually. One step at a time.

I recognise a lot in what you say. The difference between you and me is, I think, that I've come to a point were transition is much more important than anything else, sex for example. I'm willing to give up everything. I can't deny that I hope that I will continue to have a good sex life though. It's human. I just hope that I eventually will be able to have sex the 'right way'.

Of course women think about sex too :) I wonder why you mention this? Are you affraid of not wanting to ever have sex again if you would transition?

Btw, boyfriends hardly ever complain if their partners want too much sex :D

Keeping in mind that I didn't follow the most acceptable guidelines for transition...
  I always knew that I wanted to be a girl but I never wanted to be Transsexual.....  anything but that! I saw how TS's were portrayed in the media and wanted no part of it.  I hid behind other issues like social anxiety and depression, blaming them for my inability to feel comfortable with myself. I started hormones on my own, without a Dr's supervision, to try and make myself more comfortable while still trying to be the "best man I could be." EPIC FAIL !!!
  What the hormones did was make me even more certain of what I really was inside. After 2 1/2 years, the results were getting really obvious... what started out as a desperate attempt at relieving depression ended up as the unscheduled start of my transition. Now 5 years in and ready for GRS, my only regret is that I didn't do this years ago! Living full time wasn't a "test" at all for me.. it felt so natural... Finally the interface through  which I interacted with the world matched my mindset. I felt like I HAD to transition..... or I couldn't go on living as male.
  Anyway, I think that, at this point in your life, if you're questioning whether or not you're Transsexual, the fact that you're questioning is a good indicator that you may not be so. You could also be Transgendered but not necessarily a candidate for full transition or GRS. It could be argued that "true" transsexuality is pretty near a medical emergency.. Untreated, lots of us are deeply depressed, suicidal and deeply troubled  with our gender identity. Have you ever felt this way? If you were told that you had no choice but to keep on living the way you are, would you be OK with that?
  You talked about the way you felt with a straight guy....  Something I realized in the TS dating scene is that there's no shortage of guys who consider themselves straight who want to date a pre-op T-Girl. What they're really looking for is a way to fulfill their gay or bisexual needs without having to admit to themselves that they're not straight. The way you felt as the  more passive or submissive person in the relationship doesn't make you trans, it just means that you prefer the more passive role. That role is present in all types of relationships.  It's really the way you feel in the ABSENCE of a relationship that points toward your gender identity.
  At any rate, keep exploring here and with your therapist... BTW, if you want a therapist that specializes in gender but can't find one locally, there are gender therapists that will meet with you once in person and conduct subsequent sessions by phone, all the way up to hormone and GRS approvals. Here's one in Pittsfield, Mass:
http://www.affirmativecounseling.net/ (http://www.affirmativecounseling.net/)
This is just one of many but do seek out a specialist else you might have to educate your therapist in gender issues.  ::)    BTW, ANY therapist or psychologist that tells you that gender identity OR homosexuality is a, "lifestyle choice," should be told to go back to school and outed for their lack of professionalism. Medicine is NO place for religion-based hogwash.

   You'll figure it out  :)  and groups like this one will be here for you either way.

<= Extremely effeminate male, likes males.  Gay male?  Maybe.

<= Strong desire to be female because it more closely matches his patterns of behavior, interests, and sexual desires.  Gay male?  Maybe.

<= Believes he is actually male as much as he resents it, not female.  Gay male?  Maybe.

<= Still prefers to be female and feels distress when thought of as male.

Regardless of motivation, I still have felt very powerful GID and that is what I think makes me transgendered - even though in every other aspect I may seem more like a gay male.

Quote from: Riannah on July 27, 2010, 07:52:28 PMAre you trying to look like a woman on the outside? Do you feel the need to? I personally never visited a ts forum before I wanted to become female on the outside too.

Of course women think about sex too :) I wonder why you mention this? Are you affraid of not wanting to ever have sex again if you would transition?

Not trying to present as a woman, but I am allowing myself to be more feminine.  I am letting my hair grow out, I am wearing more floral shirts (I love floral prints), wearing woman's perfume and deodorant, using some make up like lip gloss and powder to cover blemishes, but nothing that obvious.  I would like to present as a woman sometime to see how I feel about it, but I would need to be passable to avoid any extreme self-consciousness.

Comment about sex was because some members think that I am obsessed with sex or at least discuss it quite a bit, which makes them think I might be more male than female.

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Post Merge: July 27, 2010, 11:33:55 PM

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Quote from: JessicaR on July 27, 2010, 09:29:10 PM
  Anyway, I think that, at this point in your life, if you're questioning whether or not you're Transsexual, the fact that you're questioning is a good indicator that you may not be so. You could also be Transgendered but not necessarily a candidate for full transition or GRS. It could be argued that "true" transsexuality is pretty near a medical emergency.. Untreated, lots of us are deeply depressed, suicidal and deeply troubled  with our gender identity. Have you ever felt this way? If you were told that you had no choice but to keep on living the way you are, would you be OK with that?
  You talked about the way you felt with a straight guy....  Something I realized in the TS dating scene is that there's no shortage of guys who consider themselves straight who want to date a pre-op T-Girl. What they're really looking for is a way to fulfill their gay or bisexual needs without having to admit to themselves that they're not straight. The way you felt as the  more passive or submissive person in the relationship doesn't make you trans, it just means that you prefer the more passive role. That role is present in all types of relationships.  It's really the way you feel in the ABSENCE of a relationship that points toward your gender identity.

I think that because I am questioning my gender, I may very well be transgendered.  I never allowed myself to ask the question when I had a healthy view of women.  It has just taken me a long time to get to this place.  I have dealt with depression and suicidal thoughts much of my life, but never knew exactly why, other than I was sad and did not feel accepted.  I thought it was about being gay (didn't come out until my mid 30's) but perhaps it goes deeper.  Thinking that I may be a woman is giving me a sense of peace in one way.  I need to explore this. 

It was my boyfriend and how he treated me that started my current gender questioning. He is not gay, at least by his cultural standards, because he had nothing to do with my male parts and has never seen them.  Though I present as a man, he treated me as a girl sexually and other wise.  He was my boyfriend, but I was his girlfriend - not his boyfriend.  It may sound strange, but someone in my position is almost considered a third gender in his culture, but most present as woman, whether they have SRS or not (most don't because of cost).  This may be why, at this point, I see more of a connection between gender and sexuality (not necessarily sexual orientation). 

Are you familiar with the Harry Benjamin Gender Disorientation Scale? If you've never seen it it might be worth a look... I don't think it's all inclusive but it might help you start to figure things out  :)

  Also, try to find a Transgender support group... Web support is great but being in the same room with others like you is so validating! Even if you have to travel a bit to get to one I think it's worth it to meet other gender variant people and see what they're like.

  You could be what some call a "late onset" transsexual.. (help me out, folks cuz I'm not quite sure about the specifics)  apparently, some don't even realize they're trans until their 50's or 60's.

 

[quote author=Robertina link=

I hope someday that I can afford a real gender therapist.  I thought my psychiatrist could help - first time to see her today, but I left feeling worse.  She prefers the phrase "alternate lifestyle"  to gender confused and also reminded me that many people think that being gay or transgendered is a choice!with sex, though I love it, the emotional connection and cuddling is more important to me.
[/quote]
yep you really need a 'proper' therapist.

Quote from: Robertina link

I hope someday that I can afford a real gender therapist.  I thought my psychiatrist could help - first time to see her today, but I left feeling worse.  She prefers the phrase "alternate lifestyle"  to gender confused and also reminded me that many people think that being gay or transgendered is a choice!with sex, though I love it, the emotional connection and cuddling is more important to me.

Wow, I can't believe a psychiatrist exists who would think it is a choice.  She's no neuroscientist, that's for sure.  95% of neuroscientists agree that all behavioral traits are programmed by physical brain structures that produce millions of different trace hormone levels.  One day, they say, we'll be able to give bank robbers a pill and put them in charge of the bank.  We just have several decades ahead of exploring and classifying all of those millions of hormones and their effects.

I told her that I never met anyone that chose to be gay or transgendered, but she says there are many as well as many theories in support of choice - I just needed to Google them!  I should have told her that there are also people who still believe the Earth is flat.

She really put a burr on my backside.

Yep, those "professionals" are in the same group of religious conservatives that believe homosexuality and transsexuality can be "cured." Give her a call and ask if she does exorcisms, too.

Quote from: JessicaR on July 28, 2010, 08:29:54 PM
Yep, those "professionals" are in the same group of religious conservatives that believe homosexuality and transsexuality can be "cured." Give her a call and ask if she does exorcisms, too.

Unfortunately, I tried that once.  What can I say - it didn't work!

There's nothing to stop ultra-conservative bible-belt worshippers from becoming doctors and medics...

This is why you always have to shop around....

There was a TV doc here in the UK a year or so back following a powerful woman about (lawyer)...whom was very vocally pro life fundamental Christian type when on hidden-cam...(turned out a US church was financing her...

She was getting many doctors to seminars in large numbers....but the undercover cameras would have made you weep....they had a very peculiar view of Muslims too.....

But then again....dinosaur fossils are object placed by devil designed to test your faith...aren't they? Oh yes...and the earth is only 4000 years old cause God made it....in seven days.

What's chilling here in the UK is that in (faith) schools creationalism (intelligent design) is put forward as the defacto stance.... and any teacher that bucks this nonsense is fired or levered out.

I pity any child that's contaminated with this crap....these people are dangerous they claim they can 'cure' homosexuals that turn toward faith and accept God...

They totally believe that your personae is a lifestyle choice...sheeeesssh!!

(But back to the thread)....and my diagnostic process

Yep....my first specialist was a female psychosexual therapist....(Harley St).....whom on my sixth visit....( I couldn't at that stage verbalise my problemo you see I was so ashamed of it).... so post leaving her office...getting changed in the loo and re-entering as me....

She gasped... sympathised profusely and said with some certainty "I'm fairly sure your transgendered....but on that score I simply can't help you further"....she did tell me though it would be a very tough journey....she was absolutely right. And did push me back to my GP (whom back in the 90's was also clueless)...I was the very first person she'd come into contact with.... and ironically actually contacted me some years later for help with her second case encountered...but I digress.

I was then shipped onto an NHS Freudian specialist....this entailed a dark room....I couldn't see him well sitting 20ft away.... after 6 weeks I realised this was utterly useless too... "did I ever have sexual feelings for my mother" (what b#ll#cks)...

I finally found an Adler based chappie which was finally, and much to my relief the only successful way into my inner-self's release...and acceptance...

And then finally I moved onto Dr Russell Reid, whom for me was highly pragmatic man, whom showed me personally immense kindness when dealing with what's still for many other medics a highly controversial field....

(This is because its fraught with complexity/misunderstandings still).... and much as with everything else no two trans peeps are ever exactly the same.... and there are many forms of inbetweenies too...whom are very happy and settled in that form....

I applaud inter-sex folk whom choose to be fully accepting of themselves as they are and in fact abhor and resist any form of intervention...

Good for them....

There is no black & white only multiple shades of grey....

Quote from: glendagladwitch on July 28, 2010, 07:59:30 PM
Wow, I can't believe a psychiatrist exists who would think it is a choice.  She's no neuroscientist, that's for sure.  95% of neuroscientists agree that all behavioral traits are programmed by physical brain structures that produce millions of different trace hormone levels.  One day, they say, we'll be able to give bank robbers a pill and put them in charge of the bank.  We just have several decades ahead of exploring and classifying all of those millions of hormones and their effects.

Heh, if i could take a pill to be a guy like everyone else, i would have taken it.  Anyone that CHOOSES to transition when they dont have to is nuts.

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Post Merge: July 29, 2010, 07:22:20 AM

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Quote from: Robertina on July 28, 2010, 08:03:52 PM
I told her that I never met anyone that chose to be gay or transgendered, but she says there are many as well as many theories in support of choice - I just needed to Google them!  I should have told her that there are also people who still believe the Earth is flat.

She really put a burr on my backside.

Well there are even more theories that say otherwise and a lot are not theories but have medical backing behind them showing connections with TS and genetics, soon they will be able to swab your skin and say yup, your TS,  but not until the future.  Being a choice means psychological studies mainly and interviews, not as reliable as medical science, you cant find the choice gene after all, but you can find the gene sequence in the Y chromosome that makes for more difficult binding of antigens to cells. 

"Australia's Prince Henry's Institute this month released the results of the largest ever study of transsexual genetics, which compared the length of the androgen receptor (AR) gene in 112 male-to-female transsexuals and a control group of 250 "normal" men. The gene—which is known to make circulating testosterone less effective at signaling, circulating, and just generally doing its thing—turned out to be longer in transsexuals. Less-potent testosterone could, in turn, affect the development of the brain in the womb, "under-masculinizing" it and making it more structurally similar to a female brain."

(taken from http://www.popsci.com/scitech/article/2008-11/discovery-transsexual-gene-raises-more-questions-answers (http://www.popsci.com/scitech/article/2008-11/discovery-transsexual-gene-raises-more-questions-answers))

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Post Merge: July 29, 2010, 08:25:24 AM

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Quote from: JessicaR on July 28, 2010, 08:29:54 PM
Yep, those "professionals" are in the same group of religious conservatives that believe homosexuality and transsexuality can be "cured." Give her a call and ask if she does exorcisms, too.

heh, i am religious, conservative, and TS.  I believe i can be cured, with Transition, as its the only treatment available that seems to work, cant complain so far, doing good, GID almost gone, but if they did have a pill to make me be able to think like a guy, i would have taken it before transition, too late know.   I am also a professional, oh no!

I tried to exorcise myself but that didnt work out, i lost my voice saying "Demons out" but on the bright side my attic isnt making noise anymore.  The only demon i know of is my X-Boss.

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Post Merge: July 29, 2010, 10:40:55 AM

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Quote from: Cruelladeville on July 29, 2010, 03:44:29 AM
There's nothing to stop ultra-conservative bible-belt worshippers from becoming doctors and medics...

This is why you always have to shop around....

There was a TV doc here in the UK a year or so back following a powerful woman about (lawyer)...whom was very vocally pro life fundamental Christian type when on hidden-cam...(turned out a US church was financing her...

She was getting many doctors to seminars in large numbers....but the undercover cameras would have made you weep....they had a very peculiar view of Muslims too.....

But then again....dinosaur fossils are object placed by devil designed to test your faith...aren't they? Oh yes...and the earth is only 4000 years old cause God made it....in seven days.

What's chilling here in the UK is that in (faith) schools creationalism (intelligent design) is put forward as the defacto stance.... and any teacher that bucks this nonsense is fired or levered out.

I pity any child that's contaminated with this crap....these people are dangerous they claim they can 'cure' homosexuals that turn toward faith and accept God...

They totally believe that your personae is a lifestyle choice...sheeeesssh!!

(But back to the thread)....and my diagnostic process

Yep....my first specialist was a female psychosexual therapist....(Harley St).....whom on my sixth visit....( I couldn't at that stage verbalise my problemo you see I was so ashamed of it).... so post leaving her office...getting changed in the loo and re-entering as me....

She gasped... sympathised profusely and said with some certainty "I'm fairly sure your transgendered....but on that score I simply can't help you further"....she did tell me though it would be a very tough journey....she was absolutely right. And did push me back to my GP (whom back in the 90's was also clueless)...I was the very first person she'd come into contact with.... and ironically actually contacted me some years later for help with her second case encountered...but I digress.

I was then shipped onto an NHS Freudian specialist....this entailed a dark room....I couldn't see him well sitting 20ft away.... after 6 weeks I realised this was utterly useless too... "did I ever have sexual feelings for my mother" (what b#ll#cks)...

I finally found an Adler based chappie which was finally, and much to my relief the only successful way into my inner-self's release...and acceptance...

And then finally I moved onto Dr Russell Reid, whom for me was highly pragmatic man, whom showed me personally immense kindness when dealing with what's still for many other medics a highly controversial field....

(This is because its fraught with complexity/misunderstandings still).... and much as with everything else no two trans peeps are ever exactly the same.... and there are many forms of inbetweenies too...whom are very happy and settled in that form....

I applaud inter-sex folk whom choose to be fully accepting of themselves as they are and in fact abhor and resist any form of intervention...

Good for them....

There is no black & white only multiple shades of grey....

Well just because some people are zealots doesnt mean religion as a whole is wrong, many good and bad things come from it after all.  Even the US was founded on principles that are religious in nature.  Its not really religion that is the issue as much as human interpretation of it.  The bible is said to be the word of god, yet it was written by men, men with agendas who pick and chose what they believed to be right over the years, and just like a rumor circulating around a room of people it changes with each person.  If you look hard, all the principles are basically the same, be a good person.

You also have to take into account that if god is superior to us, god has vast knowledge way more then we could understand, especially 2000 years ago.  Try explaining how the internet works to someone 2000 years ago, they would think its magic.  Think about it this way, how do you tell someone how you made them if your god:  Well you see, first i created the laws of physics which consist of this and that, then i caused the big bang which turned all these fields of energy to form simple molicules of matter which came together and made suns which produce elements which when the sun dies and explodes is spread out into the universe, some of these elements formed amino acids which came together to form simple organisms which adapted to environments and made for more and more complex organisms till well you showed up.  The would look at you like HUH~~~~~?  I am a goat herder dude...  Since we are made from the dust of stars, its easier to say.... yeah i made you from dirt ok..., as a goat herder you know what dirt is.  Plus 4000 of our years and 4000 of gods years might be different, after all a year on neptune is 164.8 Earth years. 

Woah all this science and religion .... making my head hurt.

I know a lot of TS are atheist in nature probably because religion now is pretty hijacked by people who ignore really what is in the book in the first place, but we bash them here like they bash us, is that the right path, you want them to understand you but you would not give the same courtesy to them calling them religious freaks, bible thumpers, etc... just like they call us ->-bleeped-<-s and freaks?  Sometimes if we both put down the hate for a second you might be able to see more then what is in front of you and find common bonds to build off of.

What I thought was laughable was my psych's suggestion to Google it, plus, she said many of these theories are from religious groups.  Well, yeah, the same groups that used scripture to condone slavery and misogyny.  I'm usually very tolerant of religion and have been a pretty religious person myself until more recently, but I draw the line when someone else tries to push their views on me, demean my views, or take away my rights (or the rights of others). 

This doctor appeared to be of Indian (the country) descent, and for some reason I thought she might be more opened minded, but of course, she could be a fundamentalist nut for all I know.  Maybe she doesn't belong to the APA, but honestly, I expected a little more from her especially since she is the only psychiatrist at this clinic - the only non-religious clinic in town.

I wish I could get my money back!  I could have used that money for 2 1/2 visits to my counselor, who I think is going to work out. 

I'm feeling more and more like I am transgendered, but, I think that I do need to present myself as a woman sometime to see how I feel.  As many of you have said, no one can tell me the answer and you often have to just try and see what happens. 

Sometimes I get discouraged, like lately, especially when women have hurt me.  Then I think maybe I am no gender - some aberration stuck in the middle.  I've just never felt accepted by any group - like I never fit in.  I felt some acceptance when I came out as a gay male, but it just always felt that though I was more comfortable with my sexual orientation, I was still trying to be something that I wasn't - but I didn't know anything else or how to be anything different.  Probably goes back to what some of you have said in another thread about being a woman is being yourself without trying to be something for someone else.

Quote from: Robertina
This doctor appeared to be of Indian (the country) descent,.
/quote]

Indian as in Asian? Or just sort of coffee skinned?  You have to remember that in many Asian and Eastern countries the only TS are dead ones...or are relegated to sex trade.

Quote from: JessicaR on July 28, 2010, 12:45:49 AM
Are you familiar with the Harry Benjamin Gender Disorientation Scale? If you've never seen it it might be worth a look... I don't think it's all inclusive but it might help you start to figure things out  :)

I just had a look at it (googled it), and it looks like it should probably be updated a bit.  For one thing, pay close attention to the disclaimer at the top - it references Kinsey's scale of sexual preference, and attempts to draw conclusions about TS based on sexual preference.  I'm no expert, but I've always thought that's a load of hooey.  As an M2F, who says I can't be primarily attracted to women?

Quote from: JessicaR on July 28, 2010, 12:45:49 AMYou could be what some call a "late onset" transsexual.. (help me out, folks cuz I'm not quite sure about the specifics)  apparently, some don't even realize they're trans until their 50's or 60's.

Me <--- case in point.  I'm 54, married 31 years, 3 "children" (18, 24, 26), and have been in deep denial for most of the past 30 years.  Thought the issue was ancient history - dead and buried.  Uh-oh... nope.  Struggled with it in my youth, and now it comes back to bite me in the azz...  Go figure.  Robertina, I truly hope you get it figured out.  When I first started re-questioning myself about 2 months ago, I went through emotional hell - I was constantly on the verge of tears or panic attacks.  No WAY this could still be real!  No WAY!!  Uh, yup, way.  Crap!

I'm glad to know that I'm not the only one questioning gender later in life.  Decades ago I briefly allowed myself to question whether I might be a woman, but I said "no way, I can't be."  In hind sight, I had a poor view of women and I think that greatly influenced me. 

Yeah - I think the doctor is from the country of India - at least she looks like it and her name sounds like it. 

I was also a bit puzzled about that scale since it seemed to be equating sexual orientation and gender.

Quote from: pebbles on June 30, 2010, 05:40:50 PM
I wondered that too and I thought about it the big difference however is that camp men are happy as men, I am not happy with my body and am stifled by it.

IMHO, Pebbles has touched upon the heart of the matter. 

ooooooo, Izumi, you got my dander up....  ;)

  Now why would you mess with a nice T-Girl like yourself by filling her head with religious conservatism?  That's just not right!!! Well... it's too far on the Right... Oh, you know what I mean...

   I'm a Transsexual, Bisexual Pagan, so my bitterness towards Judeo-Christianity has more of a bite.....  I'm evil on three fronts! I am apparently a unique abomination to "religious radicals" (I'm being nice.)  It's easy to rationalize Transsexuality as a purely medical condition that's treated with transition.... I've done it, too. As my transition is coming to an end I'm really beginning to see the advantages of living in stealth and forgetting I was ever Trans. I don't think we can forget, however, the spectrum of gender that exists outside of "true" Transsexuals; many who will never come out on the other side of transition will suffer from the constant assault by religious extremism. As we've explored in this forum string, we share many of the same battles as the GLB community and it's the religious right that we're all most frequently fighting...
  I mean, really.... a Transsexual conservative..... What would Rush say?  ;)

Quote from: JessicaR on July 30, 2010, 12:14:58 AMI don't think we can forget, however, the spectrum of gender that exists outside of "true" Transsexuals; many who will never come out on the other side of transition will suffer from the constant assault by religious extremism.

Looking at the situation realistically, this is probably where I will end up since my age, health, and finances make SRS highly unlikely.  I'll be looked at as somewhere in between male and female. 

Most of us are aware that gender preference or maybe the true gender you feel and sexual orentation are different.

Quote from: JessicaR on July 30, 2010, 12:14:58 AM
ooooooo, Izumi, you got my dander up....  ;)

  Now why would you mess with a nice T-Girl like yourself by filling her head with religious conservatism?  That's just not right!!! Well... it's too far on the Right... Oh, you know what I mean...

   I'm a Transsexual, Bisexual Pagan, so my bitterness towards Judeo-Christianity has more of a bite.....  I'm evil on three fronts! I am apparently a unique abomination to "religious radicals" (I'm being nice.)  It's easy to rationalize Transsexuality as a purely medical condition that's treated with transition.... I've done it, too. As my transition is coming to an end I'm really beginning to see the advantages of living in stealth and forgetting I was ever Trans. I don't think we can forget, however, the spectrum of gender that exists outside of "true" Transsexuals; many who will never come out on the other side of transition will suffer from the constant assault by religious extremism. As we've explored in this forum string, we share many of the same battles as the GLB community and it's the religious right that we're all most frequently fighting...
  I mean, really.... a Transsexual conservative..... What would Rush say?  ;)

Heh, my liberal friends look at me and go, you know "theoretically you shouldnt exist but you do.  Wont this make the universe explode?" 

The problem with religious right isnt that they are bad people, they are just misguided.  The just recycle what their preacher tells them but dont take the time to actually read the book for themselves.  There are a lot of things in the bible we just dont do anymore, because it stupid mainly, for example, their is a part on roofing in the bible, yeah roofing.... if you dont build your roof correctly and someone falls off and hurts themselves, apparently your going to hell.  Take note all you contractors that want to cut corners!

Anyway, if you really take time to understand what the book is really saying, you dont really have problems with transexuals.  Especially when you consider the fact that you are made up of the spirit, soul, and body (all three make you, you).  However when you die the body stays behind.  My preacher said do you sleep with men, I said yes, I am attracted to men, then that means your gay, and are sinning, he replied.  I said, "I am not gay, if its true that the body is a vessel for the spirit and soul, and all 3 are gods image, taking note that the body can change at anytime being maimed or even getting an earing, then that is to say the soul and spirit makeup the bulk of gods image, especially when we leave our body behind when we die... so, let me ask you this... what sex is my soul?".  He said I dont know, souls are beyond that.  So I asked him, so can you really say you know god's will well enough that this is not how he made me, soul, spirit, and body?, that maybe this is my test of faith? to be true to what i have always been?.  He didnt know how to answer, but i wasnt kicked out of church ^_^.

By the way i dont hate you for being your religion, you can worship what you want, believe what you want.  Just because i am one religion and your another doesnt mean we cannot get along, religion is and should always be a personal matter imo, whenever you make it public and force beliefs on another, then that is when problems start.

So to sum it up, the religious right is ignorant and would rather have someone else read their book for them, and give their opinions rather then seeing the text for what it really is.  If you look really close, basically the bible says, be a good person and you will go to heaven. 

Yes i am also conservative (fiscally), i dont believe in large government because i used to live in the USSR, and trust me, it looks good on paper but doesnt work in real life.  See thats why russian's drink lots of vodka, they drank before till communism looked good, now they drink because they have to live in it.  heh.    Anyway... its Russia now, not the USSR.  Its kinda like Diet USSR.  Tastes just as bad, just less calories.