Susan's Place Transgender Resources

This one clip clearly shows how far off the message many churches are. I am not saying all of them however a good number have lost their way.

Quote from: Chuck Shepard's News of the WeirdThe Living Word Tabernacle in Waverly, Ohio, terminated the membership of Loretta Davis recently, according to a July report by WCMH-TV in Columbus, because she had stopped paying her tithe. Davis' contributions ended in January after she was hospitalized the first of 15 times this year for congestive heart failure. The church's founder said non-member Davis could still attend, but Davis' daughter said, "In the time of (her) need, (the church) should be caring, supporting, asking what she needs, help her if she needed help." (When healthier, Davis was donating $60 a month out of her $592 Social Security check.) [WCMH-TV, 7-15-05]

It's sad and do these people really think that either Jesus or the Christian God would approve of their actions. I think not. Too many churches have become places for people to go solely to show off their position and status in the community. It shouldn't be. I have spoken many times about churches here which own whole city blocks. Something I find morally and ethically wrong. Instead of building such a large facility why not instead help the less fortunate n the community. Oh wait that goes against Republician and religious conservatives principles. Give them a hand up not a hand out.  What a crock.  Jesus would have done both.

I suspect they'd do worse for about 30 pieces of silver. :(

-Celia

Somehow I just cannot imagine thousands of people in Aquila and Priscilla's house.
These mega churches that are out for money sicken me.
So do small churches out for money.
To the extent of the example Susan gave.

I find it interesting when a rich young ruler asked Jesus what he should do as he felt he had fullfilled all in the law.  Jesus said sell all you have and give it to the poor.  Is it not interesting Jesus did not say give it to my ministry?  We could debate tithing as belonging in the New Testament or not, we could not debate what Jesus said three times in the upper room, this new commandment I give you, love one another as I have loved you.  I do not know if the leader of this church is a bible believer or not, but they are in great danger to treat one of God's kids this way.  Their leader and perhaps others a far far from a bible based life.

I always found it slightly odd that god needs cash so much.

I think that many of today's so-called preachers have forgotten that it is a calling and not an occupation.
A true minister should live for preaching. Not preach for a living.

  There has been churches like this in the past and still will be.  And there are some churches and synagogues with a strict tithe that will help but not penalize those members in need.  Charity begins at home.  I went to churches that had the give by your heart.  All of those are still solvent.  Some of those, the minister has a day job. 
  Joelene

It's a basic tenant of a lot of American Protestantism (referred to often as The Prosperity Gospel) that having money is proof that god likes you, and being poor is proof that god hates you.

So I don't think this is 'off-base' at all.  Pretty common really.  Do you really think that Republican Jesus likes poor people?  That's just some liberal myth.

The Time Between the Lights

Twilight is the time between the lights. The bright light of the sun is fading, and the shadowy light of the moon and the stars is taking its place. Night is coming. It's dusky then, when shapes and dangers are indistinct. In the early church, it was the time of transition from the fervor of the first days, as seen in the community in Jerusalem described in Acts 2 and 4, to the complacency and worldliness a generation later.

A "good" example of this is the Corinthian church. In his first letter to them, Paul addressed very serious problems, grave lacks of wisdom, and a shameful example of immorality such as would make even the Greek world of that day blush. But at least he had the confidence to deal with the problems in the belief that somehow they still had the same Lord.1

By the time he wrote his second letter to them, he wrote in fear and trembling that they may have already been deceived by the Serpent of old, the devil. His ministers among them masqueraded their true nature and real intentions so well that Paul called them "super apostles."2 His words to the Corinthians were full of irony concerning how well they bore deception and even received another spirit:

For if one comes and preaches another Jesus whom we have not preached, or you receive a different spirit which you have not received, or a different gospel which you have not accepted, you bear this beautifully. (2 Corinthians 11:4)

This did not happen all at once, but the light of Messiah, which was His love dwelling in a people who loved as He loved,3 was fading fast. The signs were everywhere for those who had eyes to see, and were recorded for our benefit so that we would not be deceived in the same manner. Another "light" was filling the church. The Savior had already spoken of this light in Matthew 6:

But if your eye is bad, your whole body will be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in you is darkness, how great is that darkness! No one can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or else he will be loyal to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and mammon. (Matthew 6:23-24)

Despising the Savior began in personal compromise; "little" things crept in so subtly and slowly that it was hard to see what was happening. In comparison to the gross sins of the world, things like failing to confess their sins, neglecting their children, and resisting their leaders were not very noticeable. In time, however, these things would lead to outright challenges to even the apostles' authority.4 They would end up enthusiastically serving mammon. But right away it led to something not so obvious — the loss of spiritual confidence on the part of many.

This led to the loss of their outspokenness in the assembly, where once all were speaking and all were prophesying.5 They had once lived in the reality of what would later be called the "priesthood of all believers" where each one had the freedom and the grace to help the other, to speak in the gatherings, to evangelize, and even to prophesy. That priesthood was fading away in the face of the little acts of compromise and cowardice. In its place, another more exclusive priesthood was arising. These were the Nicolaitans,6 the men who presumed to speak for everyone; they made it increasingly clear that no longer was everyone welcomed to speak up and share their revelations and their concerns.

Without this confidence to speak, however, an event of great, even cosmic significance took place. Cosmic means pertaining to the entire universe, inconceivably extending in space or time. Yet, it passed very quietly and was largely unnoticed except by the sensitive few.

Messiah ceased to be the head over their house.

This happened one community at a time, as the infection spread, until the lampstands7 — the light of revelation from the Father — were extinguished in the entire church:

But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end. (Hebrews 3:6)

The word translated confidence meant what they no longer had – "freedom in speaking, unreservedness in speech, open, frank, free and fearless confidence."8 At the same time, the sheep were being beaten down and oppressed by self-seeking shepherds, as the Master had warned would come.9 Paul said that after his departure, "savage wolves" would arise among the leaders, leading a following after themselves. Both of these prophetic warnings were fulfilled by men like Diotrephes, in 3 John,

I wrote to the church, but Diotrephes, who loves to have the preeminence among them, does not receive us. Therefore, if I come, I will call to mind his deeds which he does, prating against us with malicious words. And not content with that, he himself does not receive the brethren, and forbids those who wish to, putting them out of the church. (3 John 1:9-10)

What would these proud men, so bold as to speak maliciously against the apostles, say to the sheep? But the destructive, intimidating, and silencing effect of their words we don't have to imagine, for history records the silence that soon settled upon the churches. It was settled practice by 150 AD.10 Soon the speakers needed special garments to set them off from the common people. Naturally, they chose not the Biblical sign of purity and a good conscience — white robes — but just the opposite.

The Outward Sign
Outward signs are used for many reasons: to point the way, to warn, even to mock. In the Scriptures, white garments are the clothing of the Bride of Messiah and a figurative sign of individual purity.

"Let us be glad and rejoice and give Him glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His wife has made herself ready." To her it was granted to be arrayed in fine linen, clean and bright, for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints. (Revelation 19:7-8)

You have a few names even in Sardis who have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with Me in white, for they are worthy. He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments... (Revelation 3:4-5)

Stained or defiled garments are just the opposite of white garments, being a sign of a bad conscience. They represent unconfessed sin. Seen in this light, it is not a little surprising that the ancient garments of the clergy — allegedly the godly, spiritual leaders of the congregations — are black. It is just like a neglected conscience that accumulates guilt, becomes stained, and in the end is evil. An evil conscience has reached the point where good can be called evil, and evil good.

The black garments of the clergy (the Nicolaitans) were the outward sign, if anyone cared to notice it, of the evil they represented. It was more than mockery of the good conscience the shepherds were to have in taking care of the flock.11 They were commanded by their Savior to be servants, but soon they became tyrannical monarchs. History even terms them monarchal bishops. And it is not only the Catholic Church that is still organized according to this pattern. In the beginning, they were men who arose from among the elders — as Paul warned would happen12 — to take the prominent, leading role in each church. Eventually, these men behaved like the lords of the Gentiles, mocking, by their earthly power and authority, the very words of the Savior:

"You know that those who are considered rulers over the Gentiles lord it over them, and their great ones exercise authority over them. Yet it shall not be so among you; but whoever desires to become great among you shall be your servant. And whoever of you desires to be first shall be slave of all. For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many." (Mark 10:42-45)

So the light among them became darkness, and how great was that darkness!

http://www.twelvetribes.com/articles/time-between-lights (http://www.twelvetribes.com/articles/time-between-lights)

Jesus found poor widow to be very generous because she gave pennies.

Rich people are generous if they give millions but it does not cause them to reduce their standard of living.

.......................................

Benchmark God has given us,  is to show acts of love and to learn and teach.

Quote from: wendy on October 13, 2011, 07:05:58 AM
Jesus found poor widow to be very generous because she give pennies.

Rich people are generous if they give millions but it does not cause them to reduce their standard of living.

.......................................

Benchmark God has given us is to show acts of love and to learn and teach.

ditto  ;)

This doesn't surprise me.

So many churches I've seen are only out for the all-mighty dollar. Sad to say she's better off without them.

But even though I am not christian anymore. I feel sorry that she has to stand alone during these trying time. someone like that had true faith in Jesus and something like that can destroy someone's faith like that. I hope there is a caring and respectful church out there who will pick up and care for this now lost soul.

It doesn't surprise me, either.

I tend to avoid churches that do that, for obvious reason.

Fortunately there are plenty of places who don't do garbage like that (and also don't hate gays, actually feel called to try to make the world a better place, and don't give a darn what you put in the offering).  If God wants a church (or anyone, really) to have money, they will.  But having money is no sign of following God (nor is not having money a sign of not following God, despite some perversion of the gospel).

I have a funny feeling that Jesus would be a lot more concerned about some of the big "christian" ministries today than He would be concerned about whether or not the Episcopalians let a gay man be a priest (although I suspect He would have something to say to those who would try to stop the gay man).  I think a lot of ministries don't believe in the Jesus of the Bible - the one that went on a rampage when He saw how people were trying to cheat people who wanted to worship.  Woe to them.

I believe that there were 2 lessons for us to learn from when the tithe was established for Israel. (which i believe the second part is overlooked) As the first has been dealt with so often i won't go into here.

The question then needs to be asked what was the tithe to be used for by those who received it? So what are the factors that need to be looked at. Of all the tribes only the Levities could not own land as they were "set apart". So what does this mean? Being a nation that was mostly farmers and herders the Levites had NO way of providing for themselves. First it was a provision for those who were unable to provide for themselves.

Second there was no building as the Tabernacle was a tent.
Other than a small number of items it was rather plain. So what does this mean? As they didn't have a building and it most likely wasn't very large there weren't very many things. (Try putting stain glass in a tent it doesn't work to well) It would also be much easier and simpler to maintain a tent then a building. So then what is the pattern that He is trying to show us?

I believe what He is trying to show us is that we are to put Him first. Second the tithe was not meant for a lot of things but to be blessing to those who were unable to provide for themselves.  Or to put it in other words it was to flow in and out like a river.

Of course i could be wrong.

Hi Sarah

I just wanted to say, no you could not be wrong when what you say is so right.  The tithe is indeed a law given for the reasons you gave.  In the New Covenant The Lord does not mandate a tithe of money, he wants all of us and therefore control and direction over all our finances too.  He might ask us to give more or less, and to a church or others, as He leads.  Much harder to try to know what He wants and also hard sometimes to do it.

Veronica

Hi Veronica,

I do think we also miss a couple of other things. When the tithe was set up at Moses time most of the tithe was produce and livestock not money. And when the tithe was to be brought into the storehouse it meant they had to take time and effort to plant,harvest,sort and then transport it.  To me it means that the tithe was meant to be more than just money. It doesn't take much effort or thought to write a check.
I had such a hard time with just the money part up to about 3 years ago and i was taught a very valuable lesson.  With the business i am in i don't have a lot of cash but i do get a lot of items that can be used in the running of the church but it is not cash. When i went to offer it they turned it down. One it's not cash and 2 they felt it would be to inconvenient to use it if they would use it it would take the running expenses down a bit. As they are older items they do have to be made so they can be usable now but part of it was is that i would take the time and effort to bring it up to current usage. And it,s not only with that but i can get other business items at discount because of the volume. 
I am thankful that He sent someone to me who could use it. It seems crazy but when i started giving it to him to use it or to get things that was needed for his ministry God took and multiplied what i was able to do even though it's not money.
It came out of what God had given me. I have more joy and peace than i ever had with just giving money. He had to take my thinking and take it out of the little bitty box that restricts us from truly giving from the heart.

Quote from: tekla on October 13, 2011, 01:28:05 AM
It's a basic tenant of a lot of American Protestantism (referred to often as The Prosperity Gospel) that having money is proof that god likes you, and being poor is proof that god hates you.

Marx was right - religion IS the opiate for the masses 'cause we certainly can't afford any GOOD DRUGS at all! Know where the "Virgin Mary" myth really comes from? Jesus and Joseph, his burned out and overworked "dad carpenter", were too ashamed to admit . .

Mom really was a feminist whore!

Actually we put a real post-modern interpretation - combined with almost the entire Pantheon of Catholic Sexuality (as weird as any fifty fetishes) wrapped up in the image and definition of one woman^* - of 'married' in and on the whole virgin birth deal.  We forget that through most of history marriage was something that took place after the girl began to show, it really formalized something that had already taken place.  It was not a blessing and licence as we see it today.  And 'virgin' is almost certainly mistranslated into the modern 'never had any knowledge' of sex, from the older notion of a very young girl of adolescent age who was not yet a mother.  To quote Oprah them people were not 'Poor', they were 'Po' and no doubt, back in the 'hood in Nazareth, everybody knew that Joesph was hanging on Mary, and that Mary had Joe's bun in the oven.  That stuff is 'Twas ever thus.  Gossip is not exactly a modern invention.  Matter of fact before TV and all that the only way people had to entertain themselves was each other.  And I've seen towns built in that era, and man let me tell you they are close up on each other - everyone knew what everyone else was doing.     


* - Actually give the Catholics props for maintaining the only bit of goddess worship left in the West.

Hi SarahM777

I like that a lot, when Jesus said love one another that meant so much more than sit there and smile at one another, like do something about it.  You did, and with the love, peace and joy flowing in your heart you know you pleased The Lord !

Hi Veronica,

I sometimes think that so often we only take things that Jesus said on the surface and we never get into the "heart"of what He was saying. Or to put it another way we don't want to get out of the shallow end of the pool. We so often miss how  wide,deep and high His ways are to ours.

Take the parable about the good Samaritan. It is so much richer than just what's on the surface. Most of us know that it's about who our neighbor is suppose to be. Jesus takes and expands on it so much that we miss the deeper message. To me it has more to do with the example He uses. First the only person who evens stops is the Samaritan. Samaritans and Jews had at best an animosity towards each other at worst it could be surmised they were possibly enemies. So what does the man do. He stops,does first aid,covers him and them places him upon his own animal. Now it is possible that it could be implied that it was possible that the Samaritan was a merchant and was traveling with a fully loaded beast of burden. If so that would mean that in order to place the man on his animal he had to leave some of his things behind,if not it means that the Samaritan was riding along and now he is being inconvenienced,so to say by having to lead his animal instaed of riding. He gets to an inn and hands the inn keeper some money to take care of the man's needs and not only that he tells the inn keeper to do what he must to meet the man's needs. To me it is implied that he knew the innkeeper as he goes so far as to say what ever the man needs put it on his tab so to speak and he would cover it on his return.

Or to look at it from a different angle you have a man that gave out of his time,possessions and comfort to meets the needs of another that was not a friend. It was not forced or commanded but came from his heart.


Something else to think about the Samaritan didn't just take care of the needs the man had on the day he met him but he also provided for the near short term and than also the longer term needs till the man could get back on his feet.

In ancient Israel the government and the church were the same body. The clerics were both officials of the law and officials of the faith. Tithe was simply an early form of taxation, and its distribution was primarily toward maintenance of the community. In other words, tithing has been rendered utterly redundant by the formation of the Westphalian state. And if it is to be conducted anyway, the whole of the revenue should be devoted to the pursuit of charitable works since maintenance of the community is already handled by local, state, and federal authorities. I wonder what sort of counter-argument this church could POSSIBLY form against that?

And by "devoted to charitable works", I do NOT mean payment of the staff's salaries, housing the staff, or anything else of the sort. In other words, the staff of the church get zilch, nada, ZERO of the tithe money. Maintenance should dip into tithe as little as humanly possible. Power and heat for a winter fundraiser for soup kitchens? Use tithe money. Power and heat for tomorrow's congregation meeting? No more tithe money than the bill demands, and you BETTER live a Spartan lifestyle at that meeting. That means no church gym, no fancy play center for the kids, there are already secular bodies which provide these services (and for free if you're impoverished).

Christ was only violent once during his journeys on Earth, and that was against moneychangers in the church. That MEANS something, folks.

The U.S. tax code makes the occupation of religious leader very appealing on the financial front.  Social perceptions make the occupation very appealing on the status front.  If you are attracted to fame and fortune, this occupation could be very lucrative, if you play your cards right.  It's no wonder we have so many hucksters who call themselves servants of the Lord.  In order for that to be true, they have to change their name to "Lord."

I realize there are people who see a calling, truly good people who do this from their heart.  Too bad the hucksters give this calling such a bad name.

Whenever there is a pile of cash, perceived or real, you can bet the vultures will start circling.

I agree, there are too many hucksters.  And unfortunately too many people who are willing to follow them.

Promise anything, everything and have to deliver nothing?  How can you lose money at that?

The problem is if anything ever got delivered, no one ever came back to confirm it.

How unfortunate, and how true. The quickest way to fame and wealth is to pretend to be a person of the cloth. But I blame unthinking congregations who blindly try to buy their way into Heaven with donations ten times as much as the conmen who are happy to take their money. This sort of Christian is unacceptably common, and always a disgrace. God gave us the capacity to reason, to question, to doubt. And at least one parable demands that we USE the gifts God gives us, rather than letting them sit around gathering dust. We were even warned about false preachers, for Heaven's sake! The moneychangers, preaching about the virtues of living simply rather than to excess, inability to serve both Mammon and the Lord, how much do these Christians need to realize that their preachers are frauds?!!!

And the worst part about it, the most irksome element, is that these are often the same idiots who claim to be "true" Christians. The same lunkheads who tell me that because I'm an MtF transsexual I'm being led by the devil and may even be a demon myself. It makes you want to repeatedly smack them screaming WHY ARE YOU SO STUPID?!!!

Man made Religion All Sucks. Because, I have almost been every denomination under the sun. I have found peace with Jehovah God hope all can to love plague the little goth girl. p.s you all have vallid points. peace out >^o^<

Julie Marie,
I agree that those who want fame and fortune can do it easily through ministry.
But, they sicken me.
Unlike the televangelists that take up an offering every 30 seconds I only take up one per service.
I did a service tonight and took up one offering of the which all of the money went towards the rent of the building.
I received nothing as usual. That is why I am not afraid to work.
Sadly I am disabled now and my wife works. It tears me up to have her go to work while I am at home struggling to be a househusband and feeling like a failure.
Those who preach for a living consider it a career.
I would rather live for preaching because to me it is a calling one cannot turn their back on nor abuse for financial gain.
I personally wish that churches paid taxes as our does. To me the tax exempt status is a joke and something that should be abolished. let those filthy rich televangelists pay taxes like the average hard working person.
But, that's just my rant because I see people playing with the word of God leading people to hell.
Sorry about going on so but the rich slothful heretics sicken me.

Del,

If you don't mind answering i do have a question for you. To me it seems like if you go all the way back to the beginning that God is asking us 4 questions which get to the heart of the matter. I go back to the beginning because Enoch,Noah,Abraham and all the other patriarchs came before Jesus and also they never had the Bible.

Which leads me to the 4 questions i believe that God asks


And if these are the questions that He is asking us why do we not hear them in the churches?

Sarah,
The word says that when the Gentiles which have not the law do by nature the things contained in the law, these having not the law become a law unto themselves.

Sadly the things in the law showed both the holiness of God and the sins of men making all guilty. Jesus even told the pharisees that they should have taken heed to mercy rather than washing cups and such.

If preachers would get away from constantly begging for money, trying to use worldly tactics to get money and conforming to this world and teaching their flocks to do the same some might know him.
I know some people that place the four things you mention above everything else.
They know, love, believe and obey the Lord to the best of their human ability. They also know that they will fail regardless of how hard they try and rely upon the mercy of the Lord as they also know the word says the Lord delights in those who fear him and hope in his mercy.

In our church that is the main focus.
We want the people to know the Lord, love him with all their heart, believe his word and obey him to the best of their ability.

When a person really wants to know the Lord the things of this world don't seem to matter as much. When a person loves the Lord with a God given love by the Spirit they no longer really pout or get angry when times are bad. They know it will increase their faith and prepare them to meet him and handle worse problems in the future. That's the unconditional love for him that they also have for their brethren.
When a person truly believes the word of God that is pretty much all that matters in their life. What psychologists and the news reporters and teachers say may be useful for this world in areas needed but they know the word of God is more important.
When a person obeys the Lord from the heart they realize that he will guide them by his Spirit.

I imagine there are a handful of churches across the world that still teach these things but when and if you find them they will not have a large flock or be famous. They will be just like those the Lord ministered to. The word says the common people heard him gladly. Poor folk know they will probably never be rich and the ones I know see the riches of this world a snare to take their eyes off Christ and forget him.

There are some out there young lady. But they are hard to find and the people I know were led by the Spirit to them to assemble.

That's the best answer I can give.
The main reason nobody teaches the four things you mention is because it doesn't make the preacher rich or allow the people to retain their proud spirit.

Del,

If one chooses this calling and does it from the goodness of their heart and helps people in a positive way, I see no problem if the people they help wish to help him or her back with financial support.  To me it's no different than a social worker who takes donations so he or she can do social work full time and still be able to put a roof over their head, food on the table and clothing on their back.  Oh yeah, you get to go to the movies once in a while too.  ;)

I'm not a religious person but I do know many people gain peace of mind from their religious connections.  So those who have made this a calling need not apologize for taking donations to support oneself.

Del,

Thank you for taking the time to answer. I am more convinced that way to often the church spends to much time time splitting hairs over issues that He never said. Somehow i do not think that when all is said and done we are not going to be given a 100 page test on what was said by Luther,Vatican I,Vatican II,Billy Graham, Oral Roberts, or the pastors,ministers,priests or theologians. Or if baptisim by immersion or sprinkling is valid or not etc. Or if we can recite the entire bible word for word. (Which the scribes could do) They got the letter of the law but they missed the heart and soul of what God was saying and showing them.

I think if Jesus were to comeback in this time the same way He did the first time i think He would on the hair splitting i think He would tell us to "Chill out" so to speak as we can not understand it from a human logical perspective. His basic message would be the very same since time began. Which is because of God's grace,mercy and love we can get to know Him,Love Him, trust Him and be able to obey Him.

Sarah,

Amen

http://projects.latimes.com/hollywood/star-walk/billy-graham/ (http://projects.latimes.com/hollywood/star-walk/billy-graham/)

I always thought that religous leaders were to be humble

a star on the walk of fame hmmm

Billy Graham was anything but humble.  Somehow a star on the Hollywood Walk of Fame ain't even enough for what he did for the marriage of That Old Time Religion with modern mass market communication technologies and advertising strategies.  He pioneered - a total innovator - the Christ as Non-Prophet Corporation that would successfully serve an entire clown college of preachers that came after him, including - but not limited to by any means:  Benny Hime, Jerry Fallwell, Oral Roberts, Jim and Tammy Faye Baker, Reverend Ike, Reverend Gene Scott, and the biggest rock-star on TV preacher ever, Jerry Lee Lewis's own kissing cousin, Jimmy Swaggart.  What kind of corporate jet would Jesus fly anyway?  I'm thinking Gulfstream.  Yeah, that's what old Billy Graham did for us.

And best of all, a lot of that 'fame' he had came from being this kind of 'preacher to the Presidents' (there's a huge slice of humble pie right there), among which are some of the worst scoundrels and immoral people of the 20th Century.  It's not like his council had any real effect.  But the photos are strong PR Kung Fu. 

Yes, that about sums it up. These self-aggrandizing bastards with no sense of moral decency and even less respect for God put on a robe and start waving a Bible around. They do it because it's profitable, and it's profitable because of a degeneration in the standards of a lot of Christians. People are more interested in BUYING their way into Heaven than actually bothering to reflect on moral and spiritual issues and live accordingly. Let's get mad at Jerry Falwell and the like, absolutely. But let's be RAVING FURIOUS at their followers. After all, if the money and political sway weren't there, these parasitic preachers would die on the vine.

Hi Sarah and Del

I agree with both of you and just wanted to say your spiritual maturity is appreciated and so needed out there.  I have been part of a number of Charismatic or Pentacostal churches thru the decades.  We had great worship services, outstanding bible teaching.  But I so needed and wanted to see real Christian love in actions.  Now go to a small church of at most 150 and it does well with all four items.

I think one reason there is not more of what is lacking is in the US believers may suffer some trials in the areas of finances and health, but seldom persecution for who they are or what they have had to learn right from the Lord.  For example in the tg ts community many many of us have been crushed thre the years with rejections and worse.  I think we know by experience how needed the real agape type love is needed and missing in most assemblies.  Jesus said three times in the upper room, love one another.  Why do so many put such harsh conditons on that?  Jesus did not.  I believe that command was to all believers

Veronica

Hi Veronica,

By no means do i have it all "down" yet. I see where He wants me to get to and it is still one very large mountain to climb.

I often think the church has lost it's focus as to why Jesus came. He came on a rescue mission. He came to seek the lost,give sight to the blind,heal the sick,make the lame to walk,give hope to the hopeless, and to set the captives free. We are suppose to throw life lines not anchors. Jesus reminds us that they will know that we are His by the love we show one to another. Which Paul expands on when he says the fruits of the Spirit are love,joy,peace patience,goodness,kindness,gentleness,faithfulness and self control and there is no law against these things. Which Paul also goes into in 1 Corth 13 in which everything we do should flow out of love.

Way to often people in the church will use the lists of what is unrighteous between one person and another person and the true purpose of what the lists really suppose to show us. The lists are to show us where we stack up to Him and not those around us. They are to show us that without God's love,grace and mercy no one is righteous on our own merits. To often what happens is that it allows people to justify there own actions because then they don't look so bad. Never mind the seven "deadly" sins (Which are so much more socially accepted) but it's ok to fudge on your taxes,it's ok to talk about the unwed mother,it's ok to get blitzed during a Packer game (Yes i am from WI) etc etc etc. The consequences of different sins may be different but not the final result which is the same. The other thing that gets forgotten is that there are those things that are wrong for me as a person that are between me and Him alone and it's not for me to tell someone else that they can not do it if God has not said it as a general statement for all to follow.
God does not have a list of which sins are worse then others in His sight.

If you don't mind this chapter from Romans has helped me out so much.

Romans 8

Life Through the Spirit

1 Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, 2 because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you[a] free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to be a sin offering.[c] And so he condemned sin in the flesh, 4 in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
5 Those who live according to the flesh have their minds set on what the flesh desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. 6 The mind governed by the flesh is death, but the mind governed by the Spirit is life and peace. 7 The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so. 8 Those who are in the realm of the flesh cannot please God.

9 You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ. 10 But if Christ is in you, then even though your body is subject to death because of sin, the Spirit gives life[d] because of righteousness. 11 And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies because of[e] his Spirit who lives in you.

12 Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. 13 For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.

14 For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God. 15 The Spirit you received does not make you slaves, so that you live in fear again; rather, the Spirit you received brought about your adoption to sonship.[f] And by him we cry, "Abba,[g] Father." 16 The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children. 17 Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.

Present Suffering and Future Glory

18 I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us. 19 For the creation waits in eager expectation for the children of God to be revealed. 20 For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope 21 that[h] the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the freedom and glory of the children of God.
22 We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time. 23 Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption to sonship, the redemption of our bodies. 24 For in this hope we were saved. But hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what they already have? 25 But if we hope for what we do not yet have, we wait for it patiently.

26 In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us through wordless groans. 27 And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for God's people in accordance with the will of God.

28 And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. 29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. 30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

More Than Conquerors

31 What, then, shall we say in response to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? 32 He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all—how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things? 33 Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. 34 Who then is the one who condemns? No one. Christ Jesus who died—more than that, who was raised to life—is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us. 35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword? 36 As it is written:
   "For your sake we face death all day long;
   we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered."[j]

37 No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. 38 For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons,[k] neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39 neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

NIV

Speaking of Billy Graham, he hails from a suburb of Chicago, Wheaton, just 20 or so minutes from where we live.  Wheaton is in the center of DuPage county and home to all the county courts and administration buildings.  It's also interesting to note DuPage county, immediately west of Cook County (home of Chicago), is strongly Republican and very religious.  Needless to say, when Illinois passed civil unions recently, there was something like three applications submitted in DuPage.  Next door in Cook County they had thousands.

Ole Billy still has a strong presence in his hometown and home county, despite the far more liberal attitude prevalent next door.     

Wheaton is even more conservative and religious than most of DuPage county. (I was raised in Wheaton) The college and many of the churches in Wheaton had a very strong influence on the laws and ordinances. Up until the time i had left there the town was dry. When they tried to annex some land to the west of town they actually had to gerrymander around a tavern that was on the edge of the town as the owners would not sell the land. On Sunday's other than a few gas stations and convenience stores the town was dead.

At one time one of the major Christian book publishers offices (I think it was Zondervan) had their main offices in Wheaton. A number of non profits also had their main offices there. (Most were small so they really didn't need much space) Add to that that almost all of the churches themselves went from fairly rigid to very rigid. Then factor in that DuPage is also one of the 50 wealthiest counties in the US. Anyone who did not fit the "image" of a "normal upper middle class church goer" was either shunned,picked on or just down right rejected.

Needless to say it made for some really interesting times. sigh

Sarah and Julie,
  We had something of the effect here in Denver, but not necessarily religious.  We have a section in the west part of town named Barnum.  This tract was sold to Phineas T. Barnum to lure him in to have his circus wintering grounds.  Barnum finally picked Florida for that and he gave the tract back to Denver with the stipulation that no establishments to sell or to serve alcoholic beverages be allowed.  Barnum was in the Temperance movement back then.  There are no bars in Barnum itself, but across the main drags that border it, there are plenty! 
  There are some micro-communities that are springing up that are about as rigid as Wheaton, but Wheaton's strict religious mores has been there for a long time.  A lot of those other strict towns of the past simply whithered away.  Those newer micro-communities are also going away as the children grow up and move someplace where there is more tolerance.   A few of those communities do attract the white collar crooks who get elected to local office and break most of the Ten Commandments in the commission of that office.  Just as bad as those TV  mega-ministeries. 
  Joelene