Susan's Place Transgender Resources

I'll apologize in advance for what will surely be a long post.

I have a story for you all, and then some questions. Feel free to skip straight to the questions. The back story is what happened that brought the questions up, and the way back story (My attempt at humour, I know I suck ::)) will probably put the back story in perspective.

Way Back Story: Next year I'll be going to a high school on a college campus where I have to stay in a dorm. The school is really intent on making me room with a girl and use the girl's restrooms; the impression I got from them was that they were not at all willing to work with us on finding any other solution, and, the last time I talked to them, they were planning on just asking around and finding a girl that would be comfortable rooming with me. After getting some people from TYFA and the queer youth group I go to involved, I was told that they can't legally do that because my parents never gave them permission to disclose my trans status to anyone. In short, if they do we can sue them. At this point, they're not happy that we called TYFA, and they refuse to admit that the best option could possibly be giving me the single room that they already told me they had (they "don't want to give you [me] this room because we [they] don't want to give anyone a reason to hate you [me]." ). So, right now, I have no idea what housing or bathrooms will be like, and everyone I've talked to that will be going to school with me thinks that I'm a cisguy thanks to Facebook.

Back Story: One of the guys I'm going to school with, we'll call him R, was talking to me on facebook and texting me today. I originally though I wouldn't get along with him because he said something that I found offensive, but he apologized and I got over it; I think we might end up being pretty good friends. We were texting back and forth about doing parkour and my complete lack of upper body strength. This turned into him deciding that we should go to the gym at the college and be weight lifting partners. I sent him a text back saying that we should probably actually meet each other before we decided that for sure (this is my version of giving people a polite out if they decide they don't like me for being trans). Then my brother asked me who I was talking to; he only knew R as someone who was potentially a homophobe due to his offensive comment. I told him that R wanted to be weight lifting partners, and my brother asked me if R "knew". I told my brother that I hadn't told anyone at school that I was trans yet. He, more or less, yelled at me that I needed to tell R right now because otherwise I was lying and leading him on and that I shouldn't lie to people like that. He didn't seem to care that I made it clear several times that I intended to be openly trans at school, it's just not something I want to tell everyone through a text or over the internet. 

Questions: Do you think that not disclosing (immediately or ever) is lying? Does it upset you when people say it is? Does it upset you when people say it isn't? Why do you feel that way?

Personally, I don't think it's lying at all. It's my choice whether or not I want to tell people. It annoys me when people say it is, because I associate it with what people say after they've hurt/killed a trans person. As in, "I only did it because they lied to me, it's their fault".

ok my opinion.


You dont have to tell him at all, he doesnt need to know what is in your pants, or under your binder, now.. if you were interested in him, and wanted to date him, then yes he needs to know.

I think your brother is concerned for your safety, becuase if this guy does find out, who knows what he will do. So just be careful

Quote from: Kvall on July 18, 2010, 02:37:58 AM
A) They don't really believe trans people are the gender they say they are. Thus a trans man is just "fooling" people into thinking he's a man.

This would be my brother  >:(

Quote from: Elijah on July 18, 2010, 02:40:44 AM
So just be careful

I'm all about being careful. That's what the parkour is for. It'll make running away a lot easier  :P

Also, kudos to the both of you if you actually read the whole post. I like to know every excruciating detail of other people's stories, and I assume other peole are the same way. This was actually the shorter version of the story, as I'm bad at summarizing  :embarrassed:

Thank you both for the input.

I don't see a reason to tell anyone unless you were getting into some kind of romantic relationship. Even then, I'd get to know them really well before I disclosed anything. Well before it got intimate obviously.

But anyway, yea I agree with Eli, no one needs to know what's in your pants.

I agree... Not outing yourself to people isn't lying. Its smart. Some people just don't take the news very well. Your brother should not be interfering or really telling you anything on the subject. Do gay people walk up to you and shake your hand and say "Hi, I'm gay, just so you know"

Now, if your dating someone, yes I believe at a certain point you should let them know. I prefer to be upfront in that sense for safety sake.

Now to your questions. I don't hide that I'm TS, if anyone knows or figures it out thats fine with me. But I won't go around advertising either. I hate that some people think I should be outed to the whole world, its none of there business.
Simply put I'm a woman and thats all you really need to know. In your case your a man and thats all anyone should really know.

PS: your school should also get its stick out of its tail and just let you have a private room... it's safer and will cause less problems overall.

Not disclosing is deceit. Lying is deceit.

Not disclosing and lying are technically different things, but they are all deceit.

I know not the point but I wanted to throw it out there anyway.

Quote from: Shade on July 18, 2010, 02:58:55 AM
I don't see a reason to tell anyone unless you were getting into some kind of romantic relationship. Even then, I'd get to know them really well before I disclosed anything. Well before it got intimate obviously.

But anyway, yea I agree with Eli, no one needs to know what's in your pants.

Agree totally.  It could get dangerous if you're going to be in a locker room situation and he doesn't know but could find out.  This dude doesn't even know you, why should he know you're trans?

Quote from: SilverFang on July 18, 2010, 03:35:01 AM
Not disclosing is deceit. Lying is deceit.

Not disclosing and lying are technically different things, but they are all deceit.

I know not the point but I wanted to throw it out there anyway.

Living in stealth isn't deceit. It's just being trans.

It is possible to be deceitful in non-disclosure, but non-disclosure isn't inherently deceitful. And the situation described in the OP just doesn't seem to require disclosure at this point, so it seems like just a personal call.

Quote from: SilverFang on July 18, 2010, 03:35:01 AM
Not disclosing and lying are technically different things, but they are all deceit.

This is an important point to keep in mind; as SilverFang pointed out, you are deceiving this person, regardless of how you choose to justify it, and regardless of what self-comforting semantic evasions you choose to indulge in.  The underlying question is one of justification.

The basis of the imperative of disclosure is the principle of trade itself, which is mutual benefit, and benefit is measured relative to each actor's values.  Where different actors maintain different values, disclosure of information is based on the other party's values; if this is something that he would consider important, and you do not disclose it, you have deceived him and have substituted your value judgments for his own, which is the essence of violence.  In business, the moral imperative of disclosure is restricted to the scope of the transaction, but in personal relationships the imperative of disclosure is open-ended; any concealment of your basic identity constitutes false pretense.

If you have no sexual relationship and no intention of pursuing one, than the deception is a simple survival mechanism, a form of benign camouflage for your own safety and benefit.  I would suggest that you continue your deception.

With regard to the dormitory, it sounds as if someone has decided that she knows your best interests better than you do.  I suggest that you contact your attorney and medical team, establish a relationship with the dormitory manager's superiors, and, slowly, turn up the heat.

- N

Edit: Elaboration on moral philosophy of trade and disclosure.

Not saying something is not the same thing as actively going out of your way to keep from saying it.

You can lie through omission, but just not mentioning something is not the same thing as lying through omission.

Your genitals are your business, and no one's business but yours unless you are/want to share(ing) them with someone.
You are not "mandated" to answer anyone's questions, online or off.

Personally, however, I choose to just answer straightforward about me and my life when asked directly. Because.. well.. I just refuse to go out of my way to avoid raising someone else's ire, let alone awareness. If people don't like who and what I am, it's their problem. (Ofcourse, I keep safe though, no walking alone through dark alleyways or giving out my address for me. ;) )

Only your doctor and your lover need know what is in your pants. It is simply no ones buisness other than yours.

It's not deceit. We don't go around telling everyone we meet every single detail of our lives that they might find relevant. We wait until it becomes clear that it is relevant. If you get an indication that something is particularly relevant to someone, and you then don't disclose, and particularly if you lie to maintain your stealth...that's deception. It may or may not be justified to protect your safety, but it's deception. But merely not disclosing right away isn't.

For instance, I'm an atheist. Polls show that the majority of Americans don't trust atheists. Odds are that I meet several people each day who think atheists are evil Satanist freaks. Nevertheless, I don't go around with a big scarlet A tattooed on my forehead to warn them in case they're afraid to touch me or talk or do business with me. I don't even announce my atheism to potential new friends, classmates, or lab partners who will have an ongoing interaction with me. However, if someone says something bigoted or wrong about atheists/atheism, I will disclose - because I now know it's relevant to them, and because I can use my identity to educate.

I've been treating being trans and being gay mostly the same way. except that my voice tends to out me as trans.

Most people I tell think I'm lying so.... no, I don't think its lying to not say anything.  I feel its along the same lines of not walking up and saying "Hello nice to meet you I'm straight" or "I'm gay"

Doesn't much effect them, and if it does it will come out later. 

I agree with elijah, shade, kyril &cynthialee.

Being who you really are on the inside, i.e. presenting as how you were supposed to be born sex wise is not lying or being deceitful. Its actually being truthful to yourself, &no one needs to know that you were born with a birth defect(the wrong genitals).
Like others have said, ppl don't walk around disclosing their religion, or what's in under all their clothes, or what diseases they may have.
So why should we immediately tell everyone we meet, online or in person, that we are trans aka different then everyone else when all we are trying to do is fit in.

Ppl need to learn to start liking ppl for who they are, not what they are. Just like all of a sudden someone's not going to like you if they find out your gay because they're homophobic. You're still the same person, same personality. Too many ppl care too much about labels.

Not disclosing is definitely not lying.  As others have said, it's nobody's business what's in your pants, and you're not required to out yourself to everyone you meet.  That would be like meeting a new classmate and saying "Hi, I'm Tom, and I was born with 6 toes on my right foot."  It's just not relevant, and you're not lying or being deceitful by not mentioning irrelevant things. 

Plus, does your brother understand that people do get killed over this sort of thing?  If I were passing and all that jazz I definitely wouldn't disclose anything to anyone until I knew them well enough to trust them not to hurt me, and even then I'd still not be obligated to tell them.

Things seem to get placed in a nefarious or negative context if it's trans-related.  Let's look at the same situation but with different info:

"You didn't tell me you had cancer... DECEIVER! YOU WILL BURN FOR IT!!!"
"You went to Brown? You're fired, I can't trust you if I don't know every detail of your life!"
"Your lost your appendix when you were 10? How can I lift weights with you now?!? This changes everything!!!112"

Keep in mind that this is literally just some dude.  Not a lover, not family, not a boss, not a doctor, not even someone that remotely matters.  This is some guy that he doesn't know but wants to lift weights with.  Unless they are going to do it afterwards, this is a non-issue.

I expect people to be able to hire me, bag my groceries, fit me for a suit, and tell me where I can buy jelly beans without knowing my status.  I would only ever tell a personal trainer if it were pertinent to my calorie count, and maybe not even then.  My body, my info, my choice.

R may feel lied to at some point but then again he may be accepting in the end. Overall, it's YOUR decision when to disclose. If you are MALE to you and wish to live as a male to tohers around you, it's not lying. You're being YOU!

Some people don't need to know right away. One day if you feel comfortable letting that past of yours out to the world, by all means, go for it.

Your school giving you the run around about a singles room is bull->-bleeped-<-. Get a single. Demand one. You shouldn't be forced into the female halls because of you're bio gender. They should be flexible to your individual needs.

I knew my trans friend for two years online before he disclosed his trans status to me. I didn't ever feel that he had deceived me. He simply chose his moment. It wasn't my right to know (but it was my privilege).

Quote from: minniemouse on July 19, 2010, 05:25:33 AM
I knew my trans friend for two years online before he disclosed his trans status to me. I didn't ever feel that he had deceived me. He simply chose his moment. It wasn't my right to know (but it was my privilege).

THIS!

If anyone asks, and you avoid the question, then yes: It is deceiving.
If someone is close to you, and you don't tell them, then yes, I'd say it is deceiving.
Until those points.. Why would you say anything about the subject? How many people go around telling other people they meet for the first time: 'Hey; there's something I need you to know about me... I have two big toes. One on each foot. I hope you understand...'

about highschool: none of these kids really deeply care about you. they're just people thrown together you'll most likely never meet again. true friends will stand by you even if you hadn't told them the truth and they find out later.
there is no reason to tell people who don't care about you and your life what they would like to know out of sensationalist curiosity. Because really, what's the difference? a bio-guy is treated and regarded as a guy. in an ideal world, so is a trans guy. the only thing disclosing will ever do for you is making your life harder.
Saying "deceit is lying and lying is evil" is a very Christian view on the situation. The truth will make a lot of people see you as something you're not - how is that fair? going to school as a boy, most people won't even know you. Going to school as a transguy, everyone will know you - as the transguy. I adore your bravery for deciding to be openly trans at school and i hope it will all be for the best! for i sure as hell would have used the new school as the basis for a fresh start.

the excuses that murderers give for their hate crimes should not be a basis for your decisions. by that reasoning, no woman would be allowed to wear a mini skirt or lipstick. no little girl would be allowed to be outside on her own and there'd be no immigrants....well you get the picture.

your brother should support you on your difficult journey. at least he shouldn't be the one making it even harder.

I don't think it's "deceiving" if someone asks and you deny it.  Why the hell are they asking, anyway?  That's a very intimate detail of someone's life.  I don't think they have any more right to know than anyone else, unless they're going to be in your bed.

Quote from: V on July 19, 2010, 01:41:34 PM
I don't think it's "deceiving" if someone asks and you deny it.  Why the hell are they asking, anyway?  That's a very intimate detail of someone's life.  I don't think they have any more right to know than anyone else, unless they're going to be in your bed.

It is a deception. That's a separate question from whether or not it's justified. To take a well-publicized and controversial example, I think Bill Clinton was entirely justified in denying all accusations of sexual infidelity - I think it's none of anyone's business, and nobody should have been asking - but just from a factual perspective, he did lie.

Getting pissed off and refusing to answer said question is not a deception.
Just because someone asks for a piece of information does not entitle them to said information. So many people seem like they feel obligated to answer every question possed of them.

Yes. But there's a difference between responding "That's none of your business, go f yourself" and responding "no." V was asserting that it's not deception "if someone asks and you deny it."

that's a matter of perspective, really. as i remember, the question was "did you have sex with?" which he denied. the truth behind it was a cock in someone's mouth, which by a lot of people's definition is not sex because they set sex=vaginal penetration.

if someone asks a transman if he's a guy, then that's a "yes or no" question. if someone asks a trans guy whether he is trans, then that may be a different matter. but high school must have changed a whole lot if kids these days run around asking "hey are you a boy or a girl or trans or a crossdresser or genderqueer or..."

If someone asks a trans guy if he's a guy, the truthful answer is "yes." It's not deception until you're point-blank asked if you're trans and you say "no." But at that point, yes, it is (potentially justifiable) deception.

You are what you feel you are.
   Only my family and some close friends from way back when? know my birth gender, Every one else sees me as female and I am not going to contradict in any way. I also believe that when recognized legally there is no doubt about your gender.
    Lying by omission does not apply in this case.

I don't think it's lying. I am a man. It's a birth defect. I'm not lying. End of story. It's none of their business. If they think I've decieved them (which I've had a few people say when they found out...but their general reaction was "you're really a ____?") then I'm not gonna bother having them as a friend. I can't stand people who respond as I said above. I'm not really anything. I'm a dude. That's that. People do get attacked over this sort of thing and I'm not about to basically say "hey, victimize me"