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I don't think I could date a theist or anyone claiming to be spiritual. Atheism is just one of those things that we both have to have in common to be able to be in a relationship. I can't see how atheists and theists make it work in a relationship.

I found this funny button pin the other day that said "I only date atheists". haha I need to get that.

No, I could be friends with a theist but honestly I couldn't date a theist.

Quote from: Nathan. on July 18, 2010, 05:15:12 PM
No, I could be friends with a theist but honestly I couldn't date a theist.

Yea I could be friends with one as long as we never talked about religion. lol I'd probably just piss em off.

All of my friends though (in my adult life) have been atheist so far.

I've dated theists, but they all lost their religion at some point in the relationship :) Except one...Mormon faith is surprisingly resilient!

Quote from: Shade on July 18, 2010, 05:19:50 PM
Yea I could be friends with one as long as we never talked about religion. lol I'd probably just piss em off.

All of my friends though (in my adult life) have been atheist so far.

What about non-religious theists? ;D

Quote from: Lachlann on July 18, 2010, 05:57:17 PM
What about non-religious theists? ;D

Depends on why they believe there is a god. But I also find the whole "I'm not religious, but spiritual" thing on the same level as religious theists.

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Post Merge: July 18, 2010, 05:10:52 PM

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Quote from: Dee_pntx on July 18, 2010, 06:02:46 PM
would I?  No.  No way.
I'm a militant Atheist and I am deeply offended by religious chatter.

My son is a preacher and devout christian but he checks his god at my door when he comes to visit.
We get along wonderfully and are very close because we respect each others belief or disbelief system.

My mother is pretty religious, devout Roman Catholic (ew). When I told her I didn't believe, she goes "well god believes in you". Pretty disrespectful. She wants me to listen to her point of view, but refuses to listen to mine and she thinks that's okay.

I'm a theistic materialist.  (I believe that everything in the universe can be explained through physics, but that the laws of physics themselves imply a designer)

Would you date me?

Quote from: VeryGnawty on July 18, 2010, 11:25:15 PM
I'm a theistic materialist.  (I believe that everything in the universe can be explained through physics, but that the laws of physics themselves imply a designer)

Would you date me?

No...I wouldn't. A theist is a theist is a theist.

A lot of Christians would say that they believe god created the laws of the universe, but that doesn't make them a "theistic materialist".

I don't see how one can be a Materialist and theist....It's like saying you're a Christian atheist.

Materialism and theism contradict each other. "As the word itself signifies, Materialism is a philosophical system which regards matter as the only reality in the world, which undertakes to explain every event in the universe as resulting from the conditions and activity of matter, and which thus denies the existence of God and the soul. It is diametrically opposed to Spiritualism and Idealism, which, in so far as they are one-sided and exclusive, declare that everything in the world is spiritual, and that the world and even matter itself are mere conceptions or ideas in the thinking subject". - http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Catholic_Encyclopedia_(1913)/Materialism (http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Catholic_Encyclopedia_(1913)/Materialism)

"In philosophy, the theory of materialism holds that the only thing that exists is matter; that all things are composed of material and all phenomena (including consciousness) are the result of material interactions. In other words, matter is the only substance. As a theory, materialism is a form of physicalism and belongs to the class of monist ontology. As such, it is different from ontological theories based on dualism or pluralism. For singular explanations of the phenomenal reality, materialism would be in contrast to idealism and to spiritualism."
-http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Materialism

Quote from: Shade on July 18, 2010, 06:05:36 PM
Depends on why they believe there is a god. But I also find the whole "I'm not religious, but spiritual" thing on the same level as religious theists.

Well, referring to the "I'm not religious, but spiritual" thing doesn't mean they're a theist either. One can be spiritual without believing in a god.

Quote from: Shade on July 19, 2010, 12:47:40 AM
It's like saying you're a Christian atheist.

Which is possible. Christianity is only a religion, you can follow it's rules or agree with the rules itself, but deny that God exists.

Quote from: Lachlann on July 19, 2010, 01:11:24 AM
Well, referring to the "I'm not religious, but spiritual" thing doesn't mean they're a theist either. One can be spiritual without believing in a god.

Which is possible. Christianity is only a religion, you can follow it's rules or agree with the rules itself, but deny that God exists.

Well lets first define what "spiritual" even means. Everyone has their own definition of the word. For me it conjures up the idea of something supernatural, untestable by science.

Okay theoretically you could I suppose you could call yourself a Christian atheist, but that's beside the point I was trying to make regarding materialism and theism peacefully coexisting together. I should've just said it's an oxymoron. /sigh lol

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Quote from: kyril on July 18, 2010, 05:51:02 PM
I've dated theists, but they all lost their religion at some point in the relationship :) Except one...Mormon faith is surprisingly resilient!

Mormons have better brainwashing techniques.  >:-)

Quote from: VeryGnawty on July 18, 2010, 11:25:15 PM
I'm a theistic materialist.  (I believe that everything in the universe can be explained through physics, but that the laws of physics themselves imply a designer)

Would you date me?

Nope. I actually prefer old-fashioned "I'm religious because I was raised that way" to people who came to theistic beliefs via some sort of thought process. And I find it insulting when people insert their God into my science.

Nope. Having to deal with religious parents is bother enough.

I don't see why not. I'm not a proselytizing atheist- I don't care what other people believe. As long as I wasn't with anyone who was pushing their religion on me, I guess that would be hard to find eh? I can speak theoretically with Christians (don't know much about other religions) and don't mind conversations about it so long as I find the ideas interesting. Don't want to be forced into a church either.

I suppose people in relationships don't like to do the whole "your religion is your business, and mine is my business." It would be a problem if he/she was repulsed by atheism or offended somehow. Anyone who does animal sacrifices and other rituals like that is out too :laugh:

Meh!
I don't see why one should choose one's partners based on their fundamental beliefs regarding existence.
I disagree with my husband (sometimes in semi-loud debate form, sometimes for hours) but at the end of the day, we have enough mutual respect for one another not to let something as stupid as personal beliefs get in the way of what we like about each other.

By simply stating you won't date outside your beliefs, you're kinda giving up on the potential to find that.

I've dated two christians and a muslim.

For me, it's okay as long as they can bring philosophy to the conversation. When talking about religion, I prefer to leave my 'Gods don't exist period!' at the door, and hope the other party does the same with their 'God omgz!'. Failing that, I don't see how a conversation on this subject can be held, but what I feel mostly is that religious people will somehow think less of me for being an atheist, rather than me thinking less of them for being deist. After all; in my eyes, there is no such thing as sin, while in their eyes, I am a sinner.

Quote from: Dee_pntx on July 19, 2010, 09:07:15 AM

Because I would not tolerate a person I lived with spewing bible stuff all the time.  I can't tolerate to hear ONE such thing much less a non-stop fountain of it from the person I live with.  No way.

I am a total, complete, militant Atheist and I don't tolerate ANY religious nonsense in my life.
In public I bite my lip when people spew it but if they push it on me I push back and I push back hard and in very harsh ways.

I won't live with someone that makes me want to duct tape their face shut.

I cn't imagine being anywhere near such a person.

But such a person seems to be a bit different from someone who is a theist.

Such a person seems to be a bit of a weirdo, frankly.

I have less respect for people who believe in gods, goblins, ghosts etc and that is why I couldn't date a theist. I could possibly date a pantheist though as long as they don't worship or pray to it, I could understand someone believeing nature = god.

Quote from: Nathan. on July 19, 2010, 09:38:59 AM
I have less respect for people who believe in gods, goblins, ghosts etc and that is why I couldn't date a theist. I could possibly date a pantheist though as long as they don't worship or pray to it, I could understand someone believeing nature = god.

We already have a name for nature though....nature. Why people need to label it "god" is beyond me.

Quote from: Miniar on July 19, 2010, 07:29:14 AM
Meh!
I don't see why one should choose one's partners based on their fundamental beliefs regarding existence.
I disagree with my husband (sometimes in semi-loud debate form, sometimes for hours) but at the end of the day, we have enough mutual respect for one another not to let something as stupid as personal beliefs get in the way of what we like about each other.

By simply stating you won't date outside your beliefs, you're kinda giving up on the potential to find that.

(Not atheist, just answering)

I'm like this.  I could date an atheist and be fine, as long as they don't go on and on about how "God isn't real", etc.  I personally don't care what you believe and I don't run around talking to people about my beliefs unless I'm asked (and my beliefs are so wide that I might come off as odd).  I much prefer taking someone off of my list because they're psycho or something, instead of knocking them off of my list based off religion, spirituality, or lack of.

So, I have question:

Would you date a theist or spiritual person who never talked about it or told you?

Quote from: Miniar on July 19, 2010, 07:29:14 AM
Meh!
I don't see why one should choose one's partners based on their fundamental beliefs regarding existence.
I disagree with my husband (sometimes in semi-loud debate form, sometimes for hours) but at the end of the day, we have enough mutual respect for one another not to let something as stupid as personal beliefs get in the way of what we like about each other.

By simply stating you won't date outside your beliefs, you're kinda giving up on the potential to find that.

If they believe in magic man in the sky, who knows what other crazy things they believe in. Ghosts, Psychics, ESP, Astrology...etc.

When I have a debate with them, I don't want their answer to be "god did it". I want them to think for themselves. I don't want them spewing this nonsense that was ingrained into them as a child.

When I want to talk about the latest breakthrough in science like oh...when they created synthetic life, I don't want god to even come into the conversation.

I wouldn't want them indoctrinating my children if we were to have children.

I wouldn't want to see them wasting their time praying. Or praying for me. Or having them think my soul is going to burn in hell for eternity.

I don't know, I could go on, but I have this delicious tuna salad sitting here in front of me that is begging to be devoured.

Quote from: Shade on July 19, 2010, 04:08:48 PM
If they believe in magic man in the sky, who knows what other crazy things they believe in. Ghosts, Psychics, ESP, Astrology...etc.

When I have a debate with them, I don't want their answer to be "god did it". I want them to think for themselves. I don't want them spewing this nonsense that was ingrained into them as a child.

When I want to talk about the latest breakthrough in science like oh...when they created synthetic life, I don't want god to even come into the conversation.

I wouldn't want them indoctrinating my children if we were to have children.

I wouldn't want to see them wasting their time praying. Or praying for me. Or having them think my soul is going to burn in hell for eternity.

I don't know, I could go on, but I have this delicious tuna salad sitting here in front of me that is begging to be devoured.

But theists aren't all like that, though.  I've known plenty that are very science-minded and won't bring "god" or any similar being into the equation when it comes to science, and I've known plenty who don't run around shoving their beliefs down other people's throats and don't run around saying things are "God's will" or what-have-you.

It seems, to me, that you wouldn't date one of the wack-a-doo theists instead of a person who is a theist but on more of a sane level.

I could date a theist and religious person, but not a "I'm not religious, but spiritual" person because those people tend to be vague nutters.

Quote from: Shang on July 19, 2010, 04:41:52 PM
But theists aren't all like that, though.  I've known plenty that are very science-minded and won't bring "god" or any similar being into the equation when it comes to science, and I've known plenty who don't run around shoving their beliefs down other people's throats and don't run around saying things are "God's will" or what-have-you.

It seems, to me, that you wouldn't date one of the wack-a-doo theists instead of a person who is a theist but on more of a sane level.

Science and religion are irreconcilable.

I think the only god believing types I could ever date would be Deists and Pantheists. Even that is pushing it >.>

Quote from: Dee_pntx on July 19, 2010, 09:07:15 AM

Because I would not tolerate a person I lived with spewing bible stuff all the time.  I can't tolerate to hear ONE such thing much less a non-stop fountain of it from the person I live with.  No way.

I am a total, complete, militant Atheist and I don't tolerate ANY religious nonsense in my life.
In public I bite my lip when people spew it but if they push it on me I push back and I push back hard and in very harsh ways.

I won't live with someone that makes me want to duct tape their face shut.

And what if they don't spew bible stuff?
What if they have enough respect for you and your world view to leave their religious beliefs outside of the relationship?

Quote from: Shade on July 19, 2010, 04:08:48 PM
If they believe in magic man in the sky, who knows what other crazy things they believe in. Ghosts, Psychics, ESP, Astrology...etc.

When I have a debate with them, I don't want their answer to be "god did it". I want them to think for themselves. I don't want them spewing this nonsense that was ingrained into them as a child.

When I want to talk about the latest breakthrough in science like oh...when they created synthetic life, I don't want god to even come into the conversation.

I wouldn't want them indoctrinating my children if we were to have children.

I wouldn't want to see them wasting their time praying. Or praying for me. Or having them think my soul is going to burn in hell for eternity.

I don't know, I could go on, but I have this delicious tuna salad sitting here in front of me that is begging to be devoured.

Can you debate about non-god related things?
Not all theists are incapable of debate without including god.

What if they won't raise your children religious?

What if you never have to "see" them pray?

_


Is it so hard to respect people you disagree with for other people?

I know, it's maybe not what you guys are saying, but holding love as conditional to "agree with me on this" just seems weird to me.
I respect my husband More for disagreeing with me. Because he does so in a way that I can not say is wrong. Because his logic is not un-sound, and his beliefs could hypothetically be as valid as mine, all things considered.

A person can believe in a god-form of some sort, be a theist, and not be unintelligent.

To simply draw some line in the sand and say "I could never date a person that believes in X" just seems to forgo any possibility that there might be people out there, who believe in X, who are intelligent, rational, hilariously funny, great in bed, respectful of your world view, great looking, and could be right for you, if you were willing to accept that just believing in X in and of itself isn't the tell all of their character.

I wouldn't date someone who sincerely believed in UFOs. If I considered people raised in mainstream religions to be basically equivalent to UFO-believers - I don't, I reserve that equivalence for fundamentalists, creationists, and converts - but if I did, I wouldn't date them either. So I get what the others are saying.

Quote from: Pica Pica on July 19, 2010, 05:20:46 PM
I could date a theist and religious person, but not a "I'm not religious, but spiritual" person because those people tend to be vague nutters.

"Tend to be vague"

But what if they are not vague?

Psh, a lot of you guys are stereotyping theists.

The only thing identifying a theist from an atheist is the belief in deities/a deity.

They're not all necessarily bible pushers, nor are they all necessarily against thinking for themselves, and they don't always answer every argument with "god did it." Those people are obnoxious, and it's not because they have a religion.

There's a very strong argument to be made that the mere belief in a deity presents an irreconcilable conflict with many nontheists' value systems. Many of us believe that it is morally wrong to assert certainty without evidence (we see skepticism as an important virtue - some members of this group have issues with "strong" atheists too); others believe that theist claims are fundamentally lies; and probably most of us believe that religion and the theist ideas that enable it are objectively harmful.

It's a bit much to insist that people be willing to be romantically involved with people whose beliefs they find morally repugnant. There's a lot of latitude given for theists who want to date inside their religions (often with similar justifications) - nobody tells a Christian they're bigoted when they look for a Christian partner. But as usual atheists tend to be singled out whenever we have any preferences or values.

(That being said, I mentioned above that I have dated theists - in fact, I married one, although he's now an even more militant atheist than I am. The theists I've been involved with are all people who fundamentally shared my values but just hadn't applied them to critically examining their religious beliefs.)

That would be the reason to not date a theist- You find theism itself to be worthy of scorn/repulsive.

I was directing my comment more towards the "I wouldn't date a Christian because said Christian would necessarily try to convert me/bible push/preach."

Quote from: kyril on July 20, 2010, 01:39:26 AM
There's a very strong argument to be made that the mere belief in a deity presents an irreconcilable conflict with many nontheists' value systems. Many of us believe that it is morally wrong to assert certainty without evidence (we see skepticism as an important virtue - some members of this group have issues with "strong" atheists too); others believe that theist claims are fundamentally lies; and probably most of us believe that religion and the theist ideas that enable it are objectively harmful.

Presumably you won't ever tell someone you love them? Even your own kids?

Sorry Kyril, I listen to and read a lot of specious arguments by people taking so many sides. But I know you to be quite intelegent and to come out with something as flawed as this is really very silly.

Quote from: Shade on July 19, 2010, 03:56:37 PM
We already have a name for nature though....nature. Why people need to label it "god" is beyond me.

I'm a pantheist... animist, whatever. I don't believe in any actual deity but I do believe that we all collectively and singularly ARE deity (down to the bunnies and ants and blades of grass and pebbles). I just happen to be the unique part of "god" that looks and thinks like me. God to me could never be a single thing, it seems an oxymoron. There are other things to call this- you can call it nature, or the Universe; some call it simply "All That Is". I think it is not we who think of it as a god, but that the term "god" is the closest thing that the most people can comprehend, even though god by definition should probably be incomprehensible. It's all over my head in any case, I'll stick to bunnies and ants and blades of grass and pebbles for my spiritual guidance.

On point, as long as there was respect for my beliefs then I could equally respect my partner's, even if I didn't agree with them.  I think that elusive "truth" that religions are so concerned with transcends and encompasses ALL belief systems, making me a universalist in that regard. I'm not so closed minded as to not appreciate anyone's prayers for my safety or healing. But I don't need self-appointed spokespersons for any deity dictating morals, rules, and regulations to me, or sitting with an air of superiority because they have "THE answer" and I don't. I'll pass on dating those people, as I'm sure they would pass on me.

Quote from: kyril on July 20, 2010, 01:39:26 AM
There's a very strong argument to be made that the mere belief in a deity presents an irreconcilable conflict with many nontheists' value systems. Many of us believe that it is morally wrong to assert certainty without evidence (we see skepticism as an important virtue - some members of this group have issues with "strong" atheists too); others believe that theist claims are fundamentally lies; and probably most of us believe that religion and the theist ideas that enable it are objectively harmful.

I believe X =/= X is factually true/real

Personally, the "beliefs" I hold are beliefs I choose to hold because I have personal experiences that verify these beliefs. I can't factually prove them true, but I can't factually prove them false either.
I hold these beliefs "as" beliefs, not factual truths.

I hold very few things as "factual truths", even when I state something like "X is true" it comes with the "Until proven otherwise" caveat within my mind.

Yet, I'm not an atheist.
_

Also, I think the "You must ascribe to my world view" attitude to romance to be sign of prejudice, no matter who's saying it or what the world view in question is.

Quote from: spacial on July 20, 2010, 09:37:36 AM
Presumably you won't ever tell someone you love them? Even your own kids?

Sorry Kyril, I listen to and read a lot of specious arguments by people taking so many sides. But I know you to be quite intelegent and to come out with something as flawed as this is really very silly.

I didn't say that I agreed with all three of the claims I listed - they're just positions that are held by some atheists. The second, in particular, I disagree with, and I'm dubious about the third as a universal truth.

But I think your question is referring to the first, so on that I'd say that I can and do tell people I love them. I don't expect them to accept that without evidence - but the evidence is there. When I love someone, I behave in loving ways toward them.

Quote from: kyril on July 20, 2010, 11:13:36 AM
I didn't say that I agreed with all three of the claims I listed - they're just positions that are held by some atheists. The second, in particular, I disagree with, and I'm dubious about the third as a universal truth.

But I think your question is referring to the first, so on that I'd say that I can and do tell people I love them. I don't expect them to accept that without evidence - but the evidence is there. When I love someone, I behave in loving ways toward them.

Easily faked.

Evidence != absolute proof. That being said...I don't have any particular problem with the idea that someone might be uncertain about my love - I can't even be certain about it myself. Hell, I don't even have a good working definition that would let me know what to look for. I just think I love my family. I also think I'm a man. So there's that.

Yes
I'm married to an Irish Catholic girl. She was aware that I'm an atheist. She still practices her religion, although not with the same passion as when we met. I let her have and enjoy the Christian holidays with her family. She tried to indoctrinate my sons bu as they got older they figured it out. She respects my position and I hers. Sometimes she jokes that we have all the bases covered.

Quote from: VeryGnawty on July 20, 2010, 12:12:37 AM
"Tend to be vague"

But what if they are not vague?

Then I might be able to have a conversation with them.

Quote from: kyril on July 20, 2010, 12:13:45 PM
Evidence != absolute proof. That being said...I don't have any particular problem with the idea that someone might be uncertain about my love - I can't even be certain about it myself. Hell, I don't even have a good working definition that would let me know what to look for. I just think I love my family. I also think I'm a man. So there's that.

I too am absolutely certain you do.

I just found some of the arguments on this thread so .....

Quote from: spacial on July 20, 2010, 09:37:36 AM
Presumably you won't ever tell someone you love them? Even your own kids?

Sorry Kyril, I listen to and read a lot of specious arguments by people taking so many sides. But I know you to be quite intelegent and to come out with something as flawed as this is really very silly.

What's so silly about it?  Religious parents disinherit and shun their atheist children all the time.  Shoe's on the other foot now, is all.

Quote from: Shade on July 19, 2010, 06:08:42 PM
Science and religion are irreconcilable.

I think the only god believing types I could ever date would be Deists and Pantheists. Even that is pushing it >.>

There are many religious scientists, it's actually surprising how compatible the two can be, I also recently read an article about this issue.

I am an Atheist and I wouldn't date someone who pushed their beliefs onto me and tried to convert me, but if they were prepared to have the occasional civilised conversation about it then I don't see a problem, in fact I'd enjoy that as I've always been extremely interested in religion even though I'm an Atheist and was brought up that way.

Quote from: glendagladwitch on July 20, 2010, 06:24:59 PM
What's so silly about it?  Religious parents disinherit and shun their atheist children all the time.  Shoe's on the other foot now, is all.

I see.

It's revenge you're after.

Good luck with that!

Quote from: spacial on July 20, 2010, 06:39:45 PM
I see.

It's revenge you're after.

Good luck with that!

You draw the strangest conclusions.

Quote from: Ghost03 on July 20, 2010, 06:33:25 PM
There are many religious scientists, it's actually surprising how compatible the two can be, I also recently read an article about this issue.

I am an Atheist and I wouldn't date someone who pushed their beliefs onto me and tried to convert me, but if they were prepared to have the occasional civilised conversation about it then I don't see a problem, in fact I'd enjoy that as I've always been extremely interested in religion even though I'm an Atheist and was brought up that way.

It's compatible until you get to the debate over the origins and development of life. (Not to mention souls, the afterlife, miracles, demons, angels etc).

I always thought this article published by the Pew Research Center was very telling:

" How can Americans say that they respect science and even know what scientists believe and yet still disagree with the scientific community on some fundamental questions? The answer is that much of the general public simply chooses not to believe the scientific theories and discoveries that seem to contradict long-held religious or other important beliefs.

When asked what they would do if scientists were to disprove a particular religious belief, nearly two-thirds (64%) of people say they would continue to hold to what their religion teaches rather than accept the contrary scientific finding, according to the results of an October 2006 Time magazine poll. Indeed, in a May 2007 Gallup poll, only 14% of those who say they do not believe in evolution cite lack of evidence as the main reason underpinning their views; more people cite their belief in Jesus (19%), God (16%) or religion generally (16%) as their reason for rejecting Darwin's theory.

This reliance on religious faith may help explain why so many people do not see science as a direct threat to religion. Only 28% of respondents in the same Time poll say that scientific advancements threaten their religious beliefs. These poll results also show that more than four-fifths of respondents (81%) say that "recent discoveries and advances" in science have not significantly impacted their religious views. In fact, 14% say that these discoveries have actually made them more religious. Only 4% say that science has made them less religious.

These data once again show that, in the minds of most people in the United States, there is no real clash between science and religion. And when the two realms offer seemingly contradictory explanations (as in the case of evolution), religious people, who make up a majority of Americans, may rely primarily upon their faith for answers."

As for the scientists themselves, they're probably more along the lines of deists than anything or are pressured by peers/family. We don't really know because when they are polled the question of "god" isn't really laid out fully. People have different definitions of god. Even Hawking uses the term god much like Einstein did. They weren't religious however. They used the term to mean "an abstract principle of order and harmony, a set of mathematical equations". I wish they would stop using the term god that way, it just confuses people.

Adding my thoughts once more:

Science and religion are contradictory. Science it just a method, and ideally nothing would be believed until it has been proven by experiment. So since religion has not been proven, so it doesn't work. But people hold contradictory beliefs all of the time, some internal conflicts cannot simply be resolved without more thought. So yeah, religious scientists exist because of it.

I married a wiccan so I certainly would date a theist. For me religion or lack thereof does not characterize who I am so the only reason not to, from my end at least, would be insecurity and since I am rather secure in my atheism it doesn't bother me.

That being said I wouldn't want to be with someone who dared proselytize their religion in to me. I think that if some cannot accept that I hold different beliefs than them then they are too immature to have as friends much less date. Obviously I don't dare proselytize to anyone either as I consider that a very immature thing to do.

In fact I don't talk about my beliefs unless I am asked about them, and while I don't sugar coat them for theist consumption I try not to be abrasive whilst explaining how I view the world. Personally I feel too much dogma of any sort tends to damage people.

If you outright refuse theists you are really cutting yourself off from a whole bunch of cool people to protect yourself from the bad apples in the bunch. If thats your choice then fine but, I prefer to judge each person by their merits if I can.

Is the theist cute? maybe. :-)

I thought this was a pretty good reply to this thread. This is from a podcast.

"Automatically being a Christian there's a degree of thinking less of an atheist. That might not be the case for all Christians though, but it's safe to say that that's the way it is.

When your world views are so different there's going to be contempt for the other person. Which is obviously not good for the relationship. When you start having to compromise with each other (begrudgingly) you're just building a hidden pile of issues for later resentment.

And what if the Christian becomes fundamentalist while in the relationship or what if you were able to convince them otherwise and they lose their "faith" and they resent you for it. It's just really messy.

As a general rule, I don't date people who have views I do not respect. That doesn't mean I have to agree with them 100% on every view they have. Only on the BIG views.

Relationships aren't just built on love, but also respect, trust, balance, and mutually beneficial compromises.

It sounds bad when I say "I can't consider having a relationship with a theist/believer (what have you)". It sounds like intolerance, but it really isn't. There's a difference between being put off by someone's views that are different from your own and being putt off by someone's beliefs that you cannot respect.

Would you date a Nazi? It's a pretty extreme example, but they're someone who's beliefs I also have no respect for."

Okay don't get offended by the Nazi thing, he was just making a point. He wasn't saying that they are in any way the same as Christians or theists or hold the same beliefs as them.

Isn't there a rule that a thread has reached a point of uselessness when Nazis are invoked?

Quote from: Pica Pica on July 21, 2010, 03:17:48 PM
Isn't there a rule that a thread has reached a point of uselessness when Nazis are invoked?

It feels like Glen Beck slipped in. >.>

Who's Glen Beck?

Quote from: Pica Pica on July 21, 2010, 03:21:57 PM
Who's Glen Beck?

Sarah Palin's hero.

Quote from: Pica Pica on July 21, 2010, 03:21:57 PM
Who's Glen Beck?

http://www.google.com/search?q=glenn+beck+is+insane&hl=en&rlz=1C1_____enUS364US365&prmd=vo&source=univ&tbs=vid:1&tbo=u&ei=YldHTP_CNIbGlQfS5OHrAw&sa=X&oi=video_result_group&ct=title&resnum=4&ved=0CDAQqwQwAw (http://www.google.com/search?q=glenn+beck+is+insane&hl=en&rlz=1C1_____enUS364US365&prmd=vo&source=univ&tbs=vid:1&tbo=u&ei=YldHTP_CNIbGlQfS5OHrAw&sa=X&oi=video_result_group&ct=title&resnum=4&ved=0CDAQqwQwAw)

He also equates like everything to Nazis.

I kind of feel bad for exposing you to Glenn Beck.

I like the related searches at the bottom haha:

Searches related to glenn beck is insane
glenn beck insane
glenn beck is crazy
glenn beck is nuts
glenn beck is a liar
glenn beck is racist
glenn beck is wrong
glenn beck is right
is glenn beck mormon

I like him, he's funny. He's like a big clown, a Ronald McDonald for nutty views.

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Closest we get to that is probably Jeremy Clarkson

Quote from: Pica Pica on July 21, 2010, 03:31:32 PM
I like him, he's funny. He's like a big clown, a Ronald McDonald for nutty views.

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Post Merge: July 21, 2010, 03:32:25 PM

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Closest we get to that is probably Jeremy Clarkson

I hate that people take him seriously and want him as our next president.

I was going to say 'surely not', then I remembered who was Mayor of London...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JsFRgIb8mAQ&feature=related# (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JsFRgIb8mAQ&feature=related#)

He doesn't seem mentally unstable at least >.> Just has bad writers.

He wrote it. Arnold Shwarzenegger called him a blunderer.

lol nice

I've dated theists - but they've either lost their theism during the relationship or shortly after.

I have several friends who are pretty into their religion - we just can't talk about it because a fight is pretty unavoidable. I feel like it would be the same way if I were to date someone who was very into their religion - and personally, I'm a fan of open communication and understanding, and I just don't think I could achieve that with a theist.

I'm afraid that I must admit I'd be extremely unwilling to date a theist due to the myriad issues I think would arise in our relationship and continue to be a problem. Really, for the same reasons I won't date someone who wants to make babies- we have very different goals in and outlooks on life.

I'm dating a theist, and we discuss religion fairly often; in fact, we got to know each other via intense debate in a science/religion seminar.  I find it fascinating to hear about his beliefs and he enjoys putting them through the "wringer" of my criticism.  By my understanding, it's mostly a matter of different feelings - we don't really differ on scientific principles, he just "feels the presence of god."  Also yes, he is cute. 

I'm kind of surprised by all the stereotyping of theists in here.  Yeah, there are plenty of wackjobs who sleep with a bible under their pillow, but that behavior isn't a requirement for membership in all religious groups.  I'd call someone a theist if zie has a religion, or believes there is something called god.  Under that definition, it doesn't have to include going to church, praying, evangelizing, or even disagreeing with you on the truth value of any particular statement.  "I am religious/spiritual" =/= "I believe in god" =/= "god exists, and you're wrong if you say zie doesn't."

For those who categorically refuse to date a theist, do you define theist differently?

Quote from: shiinee on October 20, 2010, 11:25:54 AM
For those who categorically refuse to date a theist, do you define theist differently?

I define a theist as someone who believe in god or gods.

I probably couldn't date a theist because i'm a fan of rational thinking and believing in god(s), unicorns, lepricons etc isn't rational at all. I say probably because I wouldn't rule it out anymore but it's not likely.

I probably wouldn't, just because almost every theist I know has at some time argued with me over it. I know exactly one other atheist, who I happen to be interested in ^_^ I don't know, maybe that could happen some time. But I probably would not ever date a theist, unless religion was something that we never discussed.

Quote from: shiinee on October 20, 2010, 11:25:54 AMFor those who categorically refuse to date a theist, do you define theist differently?

I define the same way as you, someone who believes in god/gods. I've had bad experiences with theist friends and at one point a theist lover (legit theists, not peer-pressure religion-havers who would be atheist if they weren't afraid of the ramifications on their social lives) suddenly deciding god/a god/ess was talking to them or telling them to do something silly. I couldn't handle a romantic partner coming up to me and telling me they met Freyja under a willow in a thunderstorm or that Christ commanded them to go on a 2-month missionary expedition to some bumfrack backwoods part of China.

It's something I've personally had issues with in my life and that's why I'm... theist shy, I suppose.

Quote from: Nathan. on October 20, 2010, 11:36:14 AM
I probably couldn't date a theist because i'm a fan of rational thinking

Theism is just the belief that somebody created the universe out of nothing.  Materialism is the belief that nobody created the universe out of nothing.

The rationality of both of these mindsets is questionable.  As an atheist, how do you solve the problem of the formation of the universe?  Theism and atheism both require a first cause to explain the universe.  They just differ on the nature of that cause.  Both are irrational.  The first cause, having come out of nothing, didn't have any impetus to form the universe in the way that it did.  Whatever explanation for the first cause must necessarily be irrational, because one must assume characteristics on a phenomenon which has no reason to have characteristics.  If one assumes that the first cause has no characteristics at all, then the universe cannot exist, so we know that assumption is false.  Theists assume that the first cause has a personality.  Atheists assume that the first cause just happened to be a certain way to form the universe as it exists.  All of these assumptions are completely irrational.

For that matter, explaining how something could have come out of nothing is extremely difficult to do without being irrational.

Atheism is simply the lack of belief in god(s). No assumption or belief just the lack of one. The only thing all atheists have in common is the lack of belief in god(s).

Theism is the assumption that a god exists. Totaly irrational.

Quote from: Nathan. on October 26, 2010, 01:18:32 PM
Atheism is simply the lack of belief in god(s)

That's all well and dandy.  But I'm still waiting for an explanation of the formation of the universe (with or without a god) which is rational.

Wow, interesting topic. I guess I'm a theist who dated an atheist. Thing is, I never talk about my believes and never really think about them unless someone outright asks me. I don't believe in the bible but I do believe there is some higher power, doesn't mean it's something I wanna talk about specially if my partner believes different and doesn't like to hear about it. Besides I'm all for people coming up with different answers and opinions, makes life interesting and not all robots who share the same single belief So does that make me date-able by those of you who are atheists? Just curious.

Yes I'm aware of my epic gravedigging...but I wanted to reply :P

Quote from: VeryGnawty on October 26, 2010, 01:07:55 PM
Theism is just the belief that somebody created the universe out of nothing.  Materialism is the belief that nobody created the universe out of nothing.

The rationality of both of these mindsets is questionable.  As an atheist, how do you solve the problem of the formation of the universe?  Theism and atheism both require a first cause to explain the universe.  They just differ on the nature of that cause.  Both are irrational.  The first cause, having come out of nothing, didn't have any impetus to form the universe in the way that it did.  Whatever explanation for the first cause must necessarily be irrational, because one must assume characteristics on a phenomenon which has no reason to have characteristics.  If one assumes that the first cause has no characteristics at all, then the universe cannot exist, so we know that assumption is false.  Theists assume that the first cause has a personality.  Atheists assume that the first cause just happened to be a certain way to form the universe as it exists.  All of these assumptions are completely irrational.

For that matter, explaining how something could have come out of nothing is extremely difficult to do without being irrational.

I disagree that atheism is irrational as far as its disbelief in any deity or any one sentient cause/designer. First of all, atheism does not imply anything as far as a person's views on the universe's development and some atheists may be completely uninterested in the subject. Atheism merely implies disbelief in a deity.

As far as the "irrationality" in believing that "something came from nothing," the big bang theory does not technically imply that the universe developed from nothing, but rather is in itself a series of causes and effects. Especially as we continue to learn more and more about other galaxies, I think it would be ludicrous at this point to really state that any of it had an absolute "beginning" and when you think about it the very term "beginning" is a human assumption. A series of causes and effects like the big bang do not necessarily require an absolute first cause. Even what we know of human evolution from a single celled organism into what we are today supports that it is not irrational to consider that a larger entity would eventually come from a microscopic one.

Oh and to answer the question: I'm not sure I could ever date a theist. I like debating and in my experience debates with theists are pointless because they typically explain everything that they cannot explain logically through theism and seem to put scientific theory on par with faith. I would become far too annoyed lol

I think a theist is rational - in that they are using reason, but it's reason that starts at a different place.

I would date a theist.  There are enough people who would have a problem dating me as it is.  I don't need to add an ideological filter.

Quote from: kyril on July 19, 2010, 01:37:34 AM
Nope. I actually prefer old-fashioned "I'm religious because I was raised that way" to people who came to theistic beliefs via some sort of thought process. And I find it insulting when people insert their God into my science.

I believe in Spinoza's God who reveals Himself in the orderly harmony of what exists, not in a God who concerns himself with fates and actions of human beings.
—Albert Einstein

Remember this is Kyril's science, Einstein.

Quote from: VeryGnawty on October 27, 2010, 06:25:28 AM
That's all well and dandy.  But I'm still waiting for an explanation of the formation of the universe (with or without a god) which is rational.

We're not under any obligation to be able to explain everything, or to answer questions that don't make any sense. Cause-and-effect wouldn't operate in the way that we understand it in the absence of the current space-time dimensions anyway. It doesn't make sense to talk about 'what caused the Big Bang' or 'what existed before the Big Bang', because there was no 'before' and there was no 'cause' in the way that we mean them, because there was no time.

Because of that, your assertion that materialism is 'the belief that nobody created the universe out of nothing' doesn't make sense. There was no creation. And there was no 'nothing' - all of the mass/energy in the universe has existed for as long as time has existed.

Science is restricted to studying what's inside the universe (for now). If if fact there is space 'outside the universe' - if the universe is a subspace of some higher-order vector space - then if you defined your time axis along some vector normal to all our dimensions, it might be possible to talk meaningfully about what happened before the Big Bang, but 'before' wouldn't mean the same thing as what we conventionally mean by 'before'. Nevertheless, if there is such a higher-order space, and if we can study it, then it might at some point be possible to discuss 'causes' for the existence of the universe. Right now, though, we just don't have any answers, and worse, we can't even phrase the question in a way that's meaningful and consistent with what we already know. So it's simply not a point of discussion. Except among string theorists, but they take the existence of some 23 undetectable dimensions a priori.

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My mother is pretty religious, devout Roman Catholic (ew). When I told her I didn't believe, she goes "well god believes in you". Pretty disrespectful. She wants me to listen to her point of view, but refuses to listen to mine and she thinks that's okay.
[/quote]

When I told my dad that I'm Wiccan, he said the same thing. I just wanted so hard to deck him right in the face. That would have felt so good. But I didn't, cuz I have self control like that

Depends what sort  of Theist.  A Quaker for example, yes.  A Salafist Muslim? no way.

Quote from: Maddie Secutura on May 05, 2011, 04:38:26 PM
I would date a theist.  There are enough people who would have a problem dating me as it is.  I don't need to add an ideological filter.

This!

I would be willing to try. But I'm fairly sure it would not work. I personally cannot comperehend how anyone would believe there is a god(s). The lack of evidence is just so obvious and the whole idea is completely illogical and irrational. Also, I feel the subject is unavoidable.

Quote from: PaRaDeaD on May 28, 2011, 05:52:43 PM
The lack of evidence is just so obvious and the whole idea is completely illogical and irrational.

Of course, "God" as defined by mainstream Christianity is completely illogical.  "God" is illogical because of things like the Problem of Evil, the omnipotence problem, etc.

Frankly, I'd date just about anyone who held to logic, regardless of what conclusions they have come to using it.  I don't really care what someone believes in, I just care that it is actually reasonable.  An omnipotent being who allows suffering to exist is only logical to the point that such a being is malicious.  However, I have never met a Christian who will admit that their god is malicious.

Christians will also tell you "The wisdom of God is foolishness to man."  Faith doesn't give you the answers, it keeps you from asking the questions.  It keeps people from thinking critically.  I won't go so far as to say those with faith are incapable of critical thinking, they're just out of practice. 

"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?"
- Epicurus

I wouldn't mind as long as they didn't try to convert me or something.

I would date a theist. I actually have dated one before. As long as they're not a devout Christian or Muslim or whatever who prays and shoves God in my face all the time, I don't mind it.

I have a twisted fetish about dating a fundamental Christian, but I have cravings for all sorts of weird, mind-f***ing experiences.

I have and I have no problem dating someone who is, as long as we can be respectful of each other.

Tried it several times. It's the closest I've come to genuine incommensurability. :-\

of course i would, though it would be inevitable that we would eventually be on each other's throats sometimes :laugh:

I'd be willing to date a theist, but I don't think it would last. I'm friends with lots of theists, and am respectful in public, but in private (or with like minded folks) I tend to let it hang loose to the point where I doubt a theist would want to date ME  ;)

Quote from: TeaCoffee on April 18, 2014, 08:06:50 AM
I'd be willing to date a theist, but I don't think it would last. I'm friends with lots of theists, and am respectful in public, but in private (or with like minded folks) I tend to let it hang loose to the point where I doubt a theist would want to date ME  ;)

This. Although it really depends on what their version of God is. The more traditional I Dream of Jeanie-like it is, the more difficult it would be. I'm actually somewhat agnostic, but with respect to certain notions of a god, I'm atheist. I'm atheist with respect to Zeus, Thor, Jehovah, Allah, Pan, etc. But if someone were more along the lines of a deist, I don't think I'd have any issue with that to speak of. If someone believes in a literal Noah's arc, for instance, I don't know how I'd be able to look them in the face on a daily basis and take them seriously. I definitely wouldn't be able to express myself honestly at that point without conflict arising regularly.

I couldn't date a theist.  I have no respect for people who refuse to educate themselves.

In this day and age of scientific wonder it makes me sad that people cling to books written by tribes of goat herders with absolutely no concept of the wonders of the universe.

I couldn't date anyone so dumb.  Pass on the god botherers.

Irony...

I'm an agnostic atheist who is open minded to spirituality though lean towards being skepitcal of it all despite my fascination with mysticism.  In any event, yes I would date a theist.  Someone can be an intelligent and amazing person no matter what diety they subscribe to.  There are all kinds of people out there.  What's important is their social views and whether that would impact our relationship.  If they were anti-gay, that would obviously create issues. If they were against scientific education, my future children wouldn't get the education they deserve.  Things like that have an important impact on how stable our reationship will be.  We would have to have some common ground to ensure it would work. However, their religion and faith itself doesn't need to cause issues.  It's about who they are and not what they are.  I will say though, I would have a very hard time if they were devoutly catholic and wanted to raise my potential future children in that system.  It brings up to many bad memories and fears.  While I don't know all the details and this isn't related to my direct family, I had a family member that was an alter boy who was abused by a priest.  The church simply moved him to a different church and my non-immediate family continued going to the church that caused so much grief because they are very religious.  In turn, my family member struggled for the rest of his life to get over this crap.  I can't ever forgive that institution for that nor can I understand the blind devoution my family showed in return.  Again, I don't know all the details, but it absolutely disgusts me.  And I had my own set of issues and difficulties with the church as a kid myself. I don't want my future children to ever be a part of that system, so that's my blind spot I would have a hard time negotiating with. 

One thing I will say though is that true love should have no barriers.  Opposites can and should attract if they are meant to be.  I have a hardcore atheist friend who fell in love and married a deeply devout catholic girl.  They are madly in love and very happy with one another.  And isn't that what matters most?  I'd rather remain open minded in hopes that I'll one day for the right guy for me, whatever religion he may be. 

I think there are as many nuanced religious views as there are people in this world.  I'm just not into brainwashed fundies.

Wow, this is really an interesting thread. I am definately not athiest but a lot of people that are religious seem to think I am. I am a Spritual in that I do believe in creation but things are created to evolve and am a firm believer in evolution. I do believe in God but don't believe God has a hand in everyone's life as a matter of fact I believe that God has nothing to do with us at all. We are on our own.

Just a question without meaness please, in your eyes as being athiest, what does that make me? Other than a little crazy. I'll own up to that proudly. :)

I am on the other side of the spectrum and have dated athiest and theological views is not why we didn't last. As a matter of fact theoligcal discussions were extremely interesting. But I respect all views, not just my own.

But I will date anyone regardless of thier beliefs as long as our personalities are compatable. And yeah I have dated some religious people that tried to force their views down my throat, so I can see where alot of athiests really don't want to date a thiest.

Quote from: Jill F on May 16, 2014, 09:25:32 AM
I think there are as many nuanced religious views as there are people in this world.  I'm just not into brainwashed fundies.

I agree with this and it goes both ways.  I think think at times the atheist community can be overly smug and convinced of their righteousness similarly to religious fundamentalism.  Severe dogmatism of any kind and inability to see a different point of a view isn't a great treat.  It reminds me of one of my favorite song "them and us" by Bad Religion.  People are so often looking to create enemies where none really needs to be.  And we all do it and need to be on the look out for that mentality. 

Quote from: learningtolive on May 16, 2014, 09:57:19 AM
I agree with this and it goes both ways.  I think think at times the atheist community can be overly smug and convinced of their righteousness similarly to religious fundamentalism.  Severe dogmatism of any kind and inability to see a different point of a view isn't a great treat.  It reminds me of one of my favorite song "them and us" by Bad Religion.  People are so often looking to create enemies where none really needs to be.  And we all do it and need to be on the look out for that mentality.

I also believe it takes just as much faith to declare that there is no god as it does to declare that there is.

Quote from: Jill F on May 16, 2014, 10:04:36 AM
I also believe it takes just as much faith to declare that there is no god as it does to declare that there is.

I like this.

Quote from: f_Anna_tastic on May 16, 2014, 01:21:15 AM
I couldn't date a theist.  I have no respect for people who refuse to educate themselves.

Not sure I like this. Is it possible to be educated and still be a theist?

I mean, I've come to the logical conclusion that it's not likely there's a God, but couldn't someone see all the strangeness of the universe and conclude that it's more likely this didn't come about as a random event?

I mean, take life for example. The process by which life is replicated requires a genetic code (DNA, e.g.), a way of transferring that code without destroying it (for us, a handful of enzymes so complex their structure defies human envisioning), and a way of using it to produce a copy of itself (for us, a ribosome, a biological structure so unbelievably intricate and compact that it rivals anything technology has created).

With any two of those mechanisms, life snuffs out as fast as it's created. The only way it replicates is if all three appear at pretty much the same time.

Could someone educated not conclude that this is something too unlikely to happen by chance?

Quote from: Jill F on May 16, 2014, 10:04:36 AM
I also believe it takes just as much faith to declare that there is no god as it does to declare that there is.

Careful!  You'll make the Atheists irrationally angry.

Quote from: f_Anna_tastic on May 16, 2014, 01:21:15 AM
In this day and age of scientific wonder it makes me sad that people cling to books written by tribes of goat herders with absolutely no concept of the wonders of the universe.

That's a specific kind of theist, albeit a fairly common one. "Theist" encompasses a lot of views that don't have anything to do with fairy tales, things like pantheism--the idea that the universe itself and everything in it is "God" but without the magical whammy goofy stuph like from those ancient books you speak of. A lot of the founding fathers self-described as "deist", i.e. God created the universe and then left it be after that and doesn't interfere anymore. It was about as blasphemous as you could get at the time. The term "atheist" was probably almost unheard of. That's why I felt a need to specify the kind of theist that I don't think I could date versus the kind I feel like I could get along with fine. I'm fairly agnostic with mild speculations about pantheism but I'm fine with a label of "atheist", though I'd definitely be described as a weak atheist (in general) and only strong atheist with respect to specific gods of common myths as I described above.

Quote from: Jess42 on May 16, 2014, 09:55:19 AM
Just a question without meaness please, in your eyes as being athiest, what does that make me? Other than a little crazy. I'll own up to that proudly. :)

A deist. See above.

Religion and spirituality are hot buttons for most of us. Especially distasteful to me are those who chastise others along religion lines in a way that is both arrogant and unloving. Are you also saying you can't date anyone who is so close minded as to believe that there may be a being who created the universe? Or date someone who tries to become one with the spirit of that universe?  One definition of spirituality is the search for the sacred.  If I believe in the sacredness of children or of the environment, is it OK. Where do you draw the line?

Quote from: Jill F on May 16, 2014, 10:04:36 AM
I also believe it takes just as much faith to declare that there is no god as it does to declare that there is.

If you keep the idea of "god" fairly ambiguous, yes. As far as specific myths go, I think it's perfectly reasonable to put the burden of proof on someone claiming the existence of something. Proving something doesn't exist is impossible but I don't call it faith when people actively disbelieve in leprechauns, mermaids, dragons, and Thor. I'm a strong atheist with respect to Thor and it's ridiculous to call that belief faith-based. The evidence (or lack thereof, depending) overwhelmingly points to him as a fiction created by the imaginations of the culture of his time, as with the other mythical creatures mentioned. It's the reasonable conclusion.

Quote from: dalebert on May 16, 2014, 11:17:50 AM
A deist. See above.

Thank you dalebert.

Quote from: dalebert on May 16, 2014, 11:39:11 AM
If you keep the idea of "god" fairly ambiguous, yes. As far as specific myths go, I think it's perfectly reasonable to put the burden of proof on someone claiming the existence of something. Proving something doesn't exist is impossible but I don't call it faith when people actively disbelieve in leprechauns, mermaids, dragons, and Thor. I'm a strong atheist with respect to Thor and it's ridiculous to call that belief faith-based. The evidence (or lack thereof, depending) overwhelmingly points to him as a fiction created by the imaginations of the culture of his time, as with the other mythical creatures mentioned. It's the reasonable conclusion.

You know in the way of mainstream Chritian religion, that one sentence goes totally against the commandment about hanving graven images of God. Even mental graven images. This is where a lot of Christians hate me especially the ones that knock on my door and give me all kinds of reading material tha I aptiently listen to but they have to listen to me too. They also seem to hate me because the mythical Jesus isn't so mythical to me and that I believe that Mary Magdeline was Jesus' lover or wife.

But thank you for clarifying because I always thought I fell along the lines of Gnosticism and way more mystery in life and death than what a book or any books written long ago contains.

Like I said earlier though I respect all belief systems and it's not up to me to say what is true or not and I guess why I never really fit in any of them and I may add, rejected by all of them like I am Lucifer himself or "Luci" herself in my case.

Quote from: Jess42 on May 16, 2014, 11:59:01 AM

You know in the way of mainstream Chritian religion, that one sentence goes totally against the commandment about hanving graven images of God. Even mental graven images. This is where a lot of Christians hate me especially the ones that knock on my door and give me all kinds of reading material tha I aptiently listen to but they have to listen to me too. They also seem to hate me because the mythical Jesus isn't so mythical to me and that I believe that Mary Magdeline was Jesus' lover or wife.

They never seem to knock at my door and just leave it behind on my proch.  I think they just see the garden hose on display, cocked, locked and ready to rock at all times and guess I'm not afraid to use it.

There's a Jill-ism for the reading material they leave behind.  I call it "litterature".

Quote from: Jill F on May 16, 2014, 12:12:13 PM
They never seem to knock at my door and just leave it behind on my proch.  I think they just see the garden hose on display, cocked, locked and ready to rock at all times and guess I'm not afraid to use it.

There's a Jill-ism for the reading material they leave behind.  I call it "litterature".

I like that Jill. I am chatty anyway maybe too much so even. Just look at some of my rambling post. But I will and actually enjoy talking to anybody about points of view and so on with mutual respect and without arguments. They eventually stopped coming by. Could be my custom inverted pentagram door knocker though. >:-) I think I'm gonna change my name to Luci.

Chatty catty alert!  LTL has made another giant post that probably could have been edited down to major extent!  :D ;)

Quote from: JamesG on May 16, 2014, 11:06:25 AM
Careful!  You'll make the Atheists irrationally angry.

I'm an agnostic atheist (despite my spiritual side) and it doesn't bother me one bit.  The us vs them mentality is a dangerous thing and the cause for so much hate in this world.  One thing I will say, though, is that a lot of us is that atheists are often judged and discriminated against a lot.  Hell, you can die in some parts of the world, just like you can for choosing the "wrong" religion.  It makes no sense.  But despite understanding the frustration that can come from being judged and hated, I don't understand the group think and hate that exists within certain parts of the atheist community  Someone's faith or lack thereof in itself should never be an issue.  What can become an issue is the effects of those beliefs and how one wishes to treat their neighbor's as a result of them.  But most people on both sides don't think that way.  Maybe it's cause my family is so mixed (I'm an atheist, my mom and sister are catholic, and my other sister is muslim) that I try came to feel this way.  Refusing to date someone because of their religion would be like me rejecting my own family.  There is always more to the picture and that's true in most areas (i.e, politics, etc).  Unfortunately, group think is sort of part of the human condition and we often have to fight back against it.  I hate when I let it get to me emotionally at times which does happen.

Quote from: Annie Maier on May 16, 2014, 11:25:10 AM
Religion and spirituality are hot buttons for most of us. Especially distasteful to me are those who chastise others along religion lines in a way that is both arrogant and unloving. Are you also saying you can't date anyone who is so close minded as to believe that there may be a being who created the universe? Or date someone who tries to become one with the spirit of that universe?  One definition of spirituality is the search for the sacred.  If I believe in the sacredness of children or of the environment, is it OK. Where do you draw the line?

While I am open to dating a theist, the truth is we all discriminate when it comes to dating to some degree. That's sort of impossible not to do when you are trying to find the right match for yourself.  I even feel guilty that I have decided to discriminate by gender by only considering dating guys, but you can't help what you like and what you want out of a relationship.  Even if I say never say never in my head, isn't that a discriminative thing to do?   Likewise, finding the right match for us will require us to follow our heart and that means sometimes certain qualities are more attractive or deal breakers for a relationship.  For me their faith or religion isn't bothersome itself, but I may be discriminative based on the effects their beliefs could have.  For example, if someone told me that I'd have to convert to be with them (yes this happens al the time) I couldn't date them.  If they are anti gay or trans, I'd obviously wouldn't want to be with them because I would feel they aren't accepting of who I am.  If they tell me my children would be raised stictly one way and would be taught to scoff other ideas, I couldn't accept that regardless of their beliefs.  It really depends on who they are, what kind of soul they have, and what we both want out of our lives.

Having said that, it should be pointing out that religion tends to be important for most people when selecting a partner.  Atheists are also rejected all the time the dating game.  How many theists out there would refuse to date someone because of their views?  I'm sure many.  Maybe they want their partner or children to follow the same beliefs and set of values.  The same thing can be true with atheists.   Personally, I just want to be with someone open-minded, empathetic, compassionate and caring.  Their faith itself is irrelevant, but the same isn't true for many out there (theist and atheist alike).

Quote from: suzifrommd on May 16, 2014, 10:26:37 AM
I like this.

Not sure I like this. Is it possible to be educated and still be a theist?

I mean, I've come to the logical conclusion that it's not likely there's a God, but couldn't someone see all the strangeness of the universe and conclude that it's more likely this didn't come about as a random event?

I mean, take life for example. The process by which life is replicated requires a genetic code (DNA, e.g.), a way of transferring that code without destroying it (for us, a handful of enzymes so complex their structure defies human envisioning), and a way of using it to produce a copy of itself (for us, a ribosome, a biological structure so unbelievably intricate and compact that it rivals anything technology has created).

With any two of those mechanisms, life snuffs out as fast as it's created. The only way it replicates is if all three appear at pretty much the same time.

Could someone educated not conclude that this is something too unlikely to happen by chance?

I agree that it's possible to be educated and be a theist.

i'm a wiccan, so does that make me a theist?  :o ???

Yes.  Welcome to the ig'nernt backwards savage monkey club. :D

Quote from: Jess42 on May 16, 2014, 11:59:01 AM
Thank you dalebert.

You know in the way of mainstream Chritian religion, that one sentence goes totally against the commandment about hanving graven images of God. Even mental graven images.

That is true. One of the compromises Christianity "inherited" when it adapted and incorporated pagan cultures into it instead of remaining an insular Jewish cult. 

Quote from: Umiko Liliana on May 16, 2014, 12:34:00 PM
i'm a wiccan, so does that make me a theist?  :o ???

Depends.  Most wiccan's believe in the goddess, so that's belief in a god.  However, there are some wiccan's that interpret the goddess as a symbolic thing.  If you don't believe in the entity itself and see it as symbolism or a unknown force, then you may not be a theist.  Theism is just a belief in a god or gods, not spirituality.

I guess if they were as chill as me about faith and spirituality then sure.  If they were remotely hardcore, ehhhhh I see too much tension happening there.

Quote from: Umiko Liliana on May 16, 2014, 12:34:00 PM
i'm a wiccan, so does that make me a theist?  :o ???

Probably better with better morals than Jimmy Swaggart and Jim Baker and Benny Hinn. I'll stop now cause the list will go on for pages. ;)

Quote from: JamesG on May 16, 2014, 12:35:39 PM
That is true. One of the compromises Christianity "inherited" when it adapted and incorporated pagan cultures into it instead of remaining an insular Jewish cult. 

Yeah it never ceases to amaze me how many people of faith have no idea about gift giving close to the winter solstice and the christmas tree are paganistic. Especially when all the historical data and information taken from the bible even points to Christ being born in the spring. The biggie is shepards in the fields watching over thier flocks. When they did that it was during birthing season to keep predators at bay form newly born and birthing sheep.

Quote from: learningtolive on May 16, 2014, 12:46:25 PM
Depends.  Most wiccan's believe in the goddess, so that's belief in a god.  However, there are some wiccan's that interpret the goddess as a symbolic thing.  If you don't believe in the entity itself and see it as symbolism or a unknown force, then you may not be a theist.  Theism is just a belief in a god or gods, not spirituality.

But "spirits", "ancestors", "spaghetti monsters", etc. all pretty much perform the same function as gods as the foci of faith/emotional energy.  If you pray to it, you're a theist.

Quote from: JamesG on May 16, 2014, 12:51:44 PM
But "spirits", "ancestors", "spaghetti monsters", etc. all pretty much perform the same function as gods as the foci of faith/emotional energy.  If you pray to it, you're a theist.

You all know the spaghetti monster is just a farcical analogue used by atheists to make a mockery of organized religion, right?  Just checking...

ah, i'm a scientific realistic non theistic wiccan than o.o

I try not to limit myself. I pretty much see differences in theologies pretty much the same as differences al liking different TV shows, foods, Clothing or anything else. Even less so because the theist/antithiest debate isn't something that we are ever really gonna know until we stop breathing. Feeling so strongly about one or the other may limit me or anyone else in finding that one special love that everything else fits perfectly except something that can't even be proven. I would date a Satanist and I would date a Roman Catholic and I would date an atheist as long as everything else was compatable and repectful enough to not have fights over the one thing that they may disagree on. Does that seem crazy?

I'd even date a spaghetti monster if there were meatballs and parmesian cheese in the mix. :embarrassed:

Quote from: Jill F on May 16, 2014, 12:58:52 PM
You all know the spaghetti monster is just a farcical analogue used by atheists to make a mockery of organized religion, right?  Just checking...

How dare you insult the great and all powerful spaghetti monster!  Now I'm going to have to do a jihad on your ass.  :P

Quote from: JamesG on May 16, 2014, 12:51:44 PM
But "spirits", "ancestors", "spaghetti monsters", etc. all pretty much perform the same function as gods as the foci of faith/emotional energy.  If you pray to it, you're a theist.

I don't think that's necessarily true.  Look at Levayian Satanists.  They believe in magick and spirituality, but they are atheists.  Buddhists also believe in spirituality as well, but there is no god.  If you believe in a spiritual entity in itself, like the goddess, you would be a theist.  If you think the goddess isn't real, but symbolic or a force, then I don't think that's really a belief in a god as we usually define it.  Then again, the concept of god could be applied in many different ways, it's just not common to apply theism to these alternative views.  However, I do see what your saying and you make a point.   I guess it depends.   

Quote from: Jill F on May 16, 2014, 12:58:52 PM
You all know the spaghetti monster is just a farcical analogue used by atheists to make a mockery of organized religion, right?  Just checking...

Not true!  I've been touched by his noodly appendage and can assure you he exists! Raman! >:(

:D ;)

Quote from: JamesG on May 16, 2014, 01:02:37 PM
How dare you insult the great and all powerful spaghetti monster!  Now I'm going to have to do a jihad on your ass.  :P

That's it, people. Pasta it is for lunch!   

Screw the carbs.

Quote from: Jill F on May 16, 2014, 10:04:36 AM
I also believe it takes just as much faith to declare that there is no god as it does to declare that there is.

It doesn't take faith at all.  All evidence points to the fact that the universe was created without any recourse or need for a creator.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. There is zero quantifiable evidence for a God. Zero.

I wish someone could provide me evidence.  I'm an open minded person.  I am willing to change my mind if someone can prove there is a god.

Faith isn't a virtue. Believing something without any evidence is stupidity.

Quote from: f_Anna_tastic on May 16, 2014, 09:15:55 PM
It doesn't take faith at all.  All evidence points to the fact that the universe was created without any recourse or need for a creator.

Opinion.

QuoteExtraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. There is zero quantifiable evidence for a God. Zero.

Zero evidence that there isn't a God either...

Quote
I wish someone could provide me evidence.  I'm an open minded person.  I am willing to change my mind if someone can prove there is a god.

Right.....

Quote
Faith isn't a virtue. Believing something without any evidence is stupidity.

Or its a test of your ability to have faith and sense that there is more to reality than can be quantifiablely measured.

Something about religion that most Atheists miss is that the "hocus pokus mystasizham!" isn't really the point.  Even the "after you die?" part.  Religions form a sociocultural framework and support structure. They provide a context for people's lives that, until recently was brutal and unfair (and often still is).  It doesn't matter if its true or not. It makes people feel better and relate to one another.  That is the "Big Picture" more than if there is some old dude looking down from a cloud somewhere.

You may call be stupid, but I am certainly not uneducated (tomorrow, I'll be getting a doctorate degree  ;D ), and I am not an atheist (I try my best to follow Sikh dharma, but fail miserably most of the time, and I still have some pagan beliefs in me).

However, for some reverse perspective. . .

Quote from: learningtolive on May 16, 2014, 12:27:53 PM

Having said that, it should be pointing out that religion tends to be important for most people when selecting a partner.  Atheists are also rejected all the time the dating game.  How many theists out there would refuse to date someone because of their views?  I'm sure many.  Maybe they want their partner or children to follow the same beliefs and set of values.  The same thing can be true with atheists.   Personally, I just want to be with someone open-minded, empathetic, compassionate and caring.  Their faith itself is irrelevant, but the same isn't true for many out there (theist and atheist alike).

I agree that it's possible to be educated and be a theist.

I don't have kids yet, but probably will one day. I am married to an atheist who follows some Buddhism. It's not a problem at all, it's quite fun to have a mixture of beliefs. :) If we have kids, children would have a choice on what they'd follow -- I'd probably bring them to Gurdwara (Sikh temple) a few times a month, but allow my father to take them to Christian church if he's around, and allow my partner to keep the kids home on Sundays to watch football or take them to Buddhist meets. Once they get old enough to think, they can make a decision on what they want to follow (and change their minds as often as they please). If I had money, I'd hire my kids a good science/math tutor, because its so important to have a good scientific background nowadays to get a good job (science is extremely compatible with Sikhi and Buddhism, so its in no way a "threat" to the beliefs).

Good luck in your journeys finding partners who you love and respect. :)

Quote from: Nimrata (aka LH) on May 16, 2014, 09:41:17 PM
You may call be stupid, but I am certainly not uneducated (tomorrow, I'll be getting a doctorate degree  ;D ), and I am not an atheist (I try my best to follow Sikh dharma, but fail miserably most of the time, and I still have some pagan beliefs in me).

However, for some reverse perspective. . .
I don't have kids yet, but probably will one day. I am married to an atheist who follows some Buddhism. It's not a problem at all, it's quite fun to have a mixture of beliefs. :) If we have kids, children would have a choice on what they'd follow -- I'd probably bring them to Gurdwara (Sikh temple) a few times a month, but allow my father to take them to Christian church if he's around, and allow my partner to keep the kids home on Sundays to watch football or take them to Buddhist meets. Once they get old enough to think, they can make a decision on what they want to follow (and change their minds as often as they please). If I had money, I'd hire my kids a good science/math tutor, because its so important to have a good scientific background nowadays to get a good job (science is extremely compatible with Sikhi and Buddhism, so its in no way a "threat" to the beliefs).

Good luck in your journeys finding partners who you love and respect. :)

I think it's great that you and your SO are both open minded with your beliefs.  That's what partners and parents should be like.  Let their children find their own path yet provide them guidance along the way.  Sadly, many people have a hard time with this.  My mom forces me to hide my religious views and tells me that I will always be a catholic.  Same thing with my sister even though she has converted to Islam and has chosen a different path.  Sometimes people desire homogeneity in their family which I personally can't understand.  Everyone's got to find what works for them and it doesn't have to cause conflict. 

By the way, congrats on getting your doctorate!  That's awesome news! :)

Ya know, you can call me crazy but I think of all the things to fight for or about or debate in this crazy mixed up world we live in that something that can or can't be proven beyond a shadow of a doubt causes so much strife and has actually cost countless lives to be snuffed out throughout history. And in some cases has cost actual history and cultures to disappear.

Nimrata, congratulations.

Religion just becomes the excuse or rationalization. There are always other factors and motivation behind even "purely" religious conflicts.  It's usually money or power.  People suck like that.

Quote from: JamesG on May 17, 2014, 10:40:02 AM
Religion just becomes the excuse or rationalization. There are always other factors and motivation behind even "purely" religious conflicts.  It's usually money or power.  People suck like that.

You definately got that right. I generally love people even though I have social anxiety and I judge no one over anything especially theologies so I really can't understand why people can't just leave it a mystery and accept each other's beliefs. Like I said earlier theology is the last thing that I consider about a person if I even consider it at all. If that was the case I would have missed out on a lot of meaningful relationships if theology was a deciding factor. Hell I would rather argue over the control of the remote than whether or not God exists.

I only just found out about a str8 married couple, friends of mine. I've known that the woman was Christian and fundamentalist in a lot of ways but I only just found out her husband is atheist. He's just always been so quiet and I assumed she would place being a Christian high on her mate choice criteria. I think he's trying to keep the peace but it appears to me that he's the one doing all the compromising by biting his tongue when she starts talking Bible silliness, and by that I mean like taking the Noah's Arc story literally. He's very scientifically-minded.

Quote from: JamesG on May 17, 2014, 10:40:02 AM
Religion just becomes the excuse or rationalization. There are always other factors and motivation behind even "purely" religious conflicts.  It's usually money or power.  People suck like that.

Totally agree.  Even the crusades has a lot more politics behind it than what's usually talked about.  Religion is a good tool to motivate/manipulate people in joining some cause or power struggle. 

Quote from: dalebert on May 17, 2014, 01:42:30 PM
I only just found out about a str8 married couple, friends of mine. I've known that the woman was Christian and fundamentalist in a lot of ways but I only just found out her husband is atheist. He's just always been so quiet and I assumed she would place being a Christian high on her mate choice criteria. I think he's trying to keep the peace but it appears to me that he's the one doing all the compromising by biting his tongue when she starts talking Bible silliness, and by that I mean like taking the Noah's Arc story literally. He's very scientifically-minded.

Sounds to me like he is allowing his wife to have an opinion that might differ from his. And isn't that the subject of this thread -- determining whether, right or wrong, others are entitled to their opinion, and if I can still have a relationship with those who differ? This forum is about atheism, but the subject is about level of tolerance of others with whom I am in a close relationship. Some of my best friends hold political views that are totally opposite mine. But they are good and loving folk, and I choose to disagree while holding them close to my heart.

Yeah, I could, as long as they didn't care that I was an atheist. While I may not believe in their god, or in various tenets of certain religions, I could respect the overall message of the religion and I wouldn't mind adjusting small parts of my life.

They'd sneak up on ya with it and make you sell yer soul for sexual favors.  :D

you dont necessarily have to be a theist to be spiritual. I hold no belief in a god what so ever, but I when asked what my religion is I still say "Thelema", even though I no longer believe in the Egyptian gods or Holy Guardian Angels (or Roman gods that I mentioned in a previous thread,) because I believe the two basic tenets "Do what thou will shall be whole of the law" and that "every man and every woman is a star." Plus I am a very active member of my local Narcotics Anonymous group so spirituality plays a huge role in my every day life (you know "honesty", "open-mindedness", and "willingness")

I also meditate, practice yoga, practice magick, and even pray, but my prayers are directed towards my Will, not any form of a theistic god.

But back on topic... I am in a very nice relationship with a Christian who believes in a literal heaven and hell and the Abrahamic God. Humanism and tolerant Christianity have many similarities. Me and him both agree that people should not be forced to do anything that they do not want to or be intentionally harmed unless in self defense. He treats me like a queen and respects my lack of beliefs, I treat him like a king and respect his beliefs. So yes I would date a theist.

I wouldn't date Steve Harvey (warning: the title has a potty word) (http://tinyurl.com/mns8v2u), not that he's asking me out or anything. :)

I'm a theist. A theist believes in the existence of a God but in NO organized religions. Just as a native American in a movie I saw a long time ago. Yul Brynner , the star of the movie told the pagan leader who practiced human sacrifice to look around and you will see that God exists. that you don't need to sacrifice.
Also I believe(for very serious only sin) that there should always be an accounting for sin and must be punished. No forgiveness with out punishment. As Robert Blake said in "Beretta" a cop series,"if you can't do the time, don't do the crime". I say if you don't want to pay for the sin, don't do the sin. I see no reason why God should severely punish Minor sins. In Christianity, Christ says all sin is the same. Why should God say that a girl telling her best friend she likes her friends hair style but really doesn't but does not want to her friends feeling  is equal to a serial killer. I only wrote this last part(about major sin) because you are considered evil if you don't believe in the organized religions.

Quote from: birkin on May 17, 2014, 09:53:05 PM
Yeah, I could, as long as they didn't care that I was an atheist. While I may not believe in their god, or in various tenets of certain religions, I could respect the overall message of the religion and I wouldn't mind adjusting small parts of my life.

That is pretty much the way I feel even though I am or could be considered a theist. I could give a crap less whether someone that I like or find attractive is an athiest or theist. As long as conversations over either or wouldn't become a push for superiority.

That last part is extremely open minded and sweet, but really you shouldn't have to adjust your beliefs for someone though because they should accept you as the whole package without any adjustments.

My fiancee is buddhist, it works out pretty well

Apparently it's more likely they won't want to date YOU.

http://www.policymic.com/articles/91301/the-most-unpopular-group-in-america-is-not-the-one-you-might-expect

Quote from: dalebert on June 17, 2014, 09:42:16 PM
Apparently it's more likely they won't want to date YOU.

http://www.policymic.com/articles/91301/the-most-unpopular-group-in-america-is-not-the-one-you-might-expect

The funny thing is I have never even been with another atheist lol. Religion never seemed to even come up until we were quite into each other. Then again I have actually dated more African American women then white women too so I must be some sort of weird statistical outlier.

I thought the Wiccan hand fasting ceremony at my wedding was kinda neat even.

Quote from: Jess42 on June 03, 2014, 05:02:40 PM
That last part is extremely open minded and sweet, but really you shouldn't have to adjust your beliefs for someone though because they should accept you as the whole package without any adjustments.

I don't think Birkin was saying he'd be willing to adjust his beliefs. He said he'd be willing to adjust small parts of his life. Maybe that means if he marries a Jew who keeps Kosher that he'd be willing to keep a kosher kitchen in the house, or if he dates a Hindu who believes in vegetarianism that he'd only serve him/her vegetarian food when he/she comes over for dinner.

Making some compromises in your lifestyle is what makes a relationship work.

I have not dated for a long time but enjoy having a wide circle of diverse friends, family and acquaintances.  Dating to me implies an interest in a significant relationship.  So it is a challenge for me to imagine someone with deeply fundamentalist views working out with my humanistic principles.  And then some challenges are completely fun too?

I won't date anyone that believes in religion or a deity, spirituality or anything else.

Quote from: Nimrata (aka LH) on June 18, 2014, 01:13:11 PM
... or if he dates a Hindu who believes in vegetarianism that he'd only serve him/her vegetarian food when he/she comes over for dinner.

Making some compromises in your lifestyle is what makes a relationship work.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=63NNuG-6-hQ

Quote from: Nimrata (aka LH) on June 18, 2014, 01:13:11 PM
I don't think Birkin was saying he'd be willing to adjust his beliefs. He said he'd be willing to adjust small parts of his life. Maybe that means if he marries a Jew who keeps Kosher that he'd be willing to keep a kosher kitchen in the house, or if he dates a Hindu who believes in vegetarianism that he'd only serve him/her vegetarian food when he/she comes over for dinner.

Making some compromises in your lifestyle is what makes a relationship work.

I know, but with some people even making small adjustments in thier lives are a tremedous thing to do for someone when there are so many more out there that he would not have to make adjustments for.

Your right though, making compromises for a relationship is what makes it work. There are many people that don't though.

Quote from: Jess42 on June 19, 2014, 07:29:04 AM
there are so many more out there that he would not have to make adjustments for.

Maybe there's a lot of people out there he wouldn't have to make religious adjustments for, but I highly doubt there's many people out there that would require 100% no adjustments for during the course of a long-term relationship. Even with the most perfect, compatible couples, there's probably at least a few little things that would require compromises.

Quote from: Nimrata (aka LH) on June 19, 2014, 10:27:29 AM
Maybe there's a lot of people out there he wouldn't have to make religious adjustments for, but I highly doubt there's many people out there that would require 100% no adjustments for during the course of a long-term relationship. Even with the most perfect, compatible couples, there's probably at least a few little things that would require compromises.

No doubt. In a relationship it's pretty much a given in the art of give and take. But when it comes to political affiliation or spritual beliefs a lot of people draw a line. But yeah most definately compromises gotta be made or the relationship is doomed from the get go. I guess when it comes to politics and spiritual beliefs it's just how strong the people involved believe in those subjects and I know people that are so embedded in both that they are borderline zeolots.

Really I hadn't had much trouble with being with people outside of my political or religious affiliation. I don't see why people think it is such an issue, can they not agree to disagree?

I could see problems I guess when it comes to children which I do not have and I am certainly infertile now, in that I could deal with them being raised to believe in god but many religious practices are just a nonstarter win me like the hijab, female circumsion, arranged marriage, etc.

But when it comes to me I don't usually see where it would be a problem. Like we had a Wiccan marriage ceremony because it sounded much more exciting than going to the courthouse, we got to reserve a whole section of the park too. Also with other people I have been with I would just let them go to church without me, sleeping in is what Sundays were made for :p

And any theist who wouldn't date me is just crazy I am a catch :)

Actually, I would probably find it quite interesting .-.

I mean, if they're not trying to convince me to be religious and believe in their God/s then that's fine. I do not see why religion should dictate whether I would date a person or not. But again, if they try to force their religion on me then no thanks :)

Quote from: AnomalyEternal on June 23, 2014, 03:32:05 AM
I mean, if they're not trying to convince me to be religious and believe in their God/s then that's fine. I do not see why religion should dictate whether I would date a person or not. But again, if they try to force their religion on me then no thanks :)

Believing in a god doesn't mean one believes in Heaven and/or Hell. However, if they do, I have a hard time understanding how they could be anything other than absolutely obsessive about Heaven and absolutely obnoxiously evangelical about getting all the people they care about (hopefully everyone in the world) to Heaven as well. If there's an eternal afterlife, then this extremely short life can be nothing but a meaningless drop in the ocean of infinity, serving no purpose except to spend ensuring one gets into Heaven and avoids Hell. If they say they believe in those things and yet they aren't up on a platform on the street corner with a plackard--"the END is NEAR!" and a megaphone, then I can't help but be doubtful of their sincerity about those beliefs.

If we (atheists) are right and this life is the only life, then atheism is the truest form of worship of life. We're telling people this life is precious because if there's an eternal afterlife, then it's not precious at all. It's trivial and relatively worthless. There's a lot at stake in this debate.

Now, that's not the same as someone saying they believe in something like reincarnation. Reincarnation doesn't necessarily make this life meaningless in the same way that Heaven and Hell do.

Quote from: dalebert on June 23, 2014, 02:21:46 PM
Believing in a god doesn't mean one believes in Heaven and/or Hell. However, if they do, I have a hard time understanding how they could be anything other than absolutely obsessive about Heaven and absolutely obnoxiously evangelical about getting all the people they care about (hopefully everyone in the world) to Heaven as well. If there's an eternal afterlife, then this extremely short life can be nothing but a meaningless drop in the ocean of infinity, serving no purpose except to spend ensuring one gets into Heaven and avoids Hell. If they say they believe in those things and yet they aren't up on a platform on the street corner with a plackard--"the END is NEAR!" and a megaphone, then I can't help but be doubtful of their sincerity about those beliefs.

If we (atheists) are right and this life is the only life, then atheism is the truest form of worship of life. We're telling people this life is precious because if there's an eternal afterlife, then it's not precious at all. It's trivial and relatively worthless. There's a lot at stake in this debate.

Now, that's not the same as someone saying they believe in something like reincarnation. Reincarnation doesn't necessarily make this life meaningless in the same way that Heaven and Hell do.

Not nesicarily dalebert. Some of us don't believe in the Heaven and Hell that is commonly accepted. And life is a precious thing and to be taken advantage of and used as a learning process. Of course I am one of the latter that you metioned and do believe in reincanation. But to be completely honest I really can't claim what really happens after the body dies and the 6 minutes or so it takes for the brain to go completely dead from lack of Oxygen. But what is reality and what is fantasy, I think it would do everyone good just to be the best person they can be regardless of what happens in an afterlife, the life between incarnations or just non existence. When I take that last breath I hope I feel like I was the best me that I could be, have no or little regrets and no guilt. But that 6 minutes or so could be our eternity.

@Dalebert:
It hasn't been my experience that theists were at all concerned about heaven and hell in everyday life. One girl who I dated who is Christian enough to spam her facebook with likes to things about god and likes people like Bristol Palin (Who is basically scum in my view); she never really pressured me at all about being an atheist or tried to convince me I was going to hell, etc. She took her faith very seriously, but she also took the idea that God can be the only judge and to judge the sins of others is inherently anti-christian.

It doesn't mean her convictions of faith were lacking, and perhaps there was some concern that was left unvoiced, but it was never an apparent problem. Morally we were pretty close in the parts that mattered (I.E. monogamay, definitions of cheating, lying, etc). I still look back on that relationship fondly.

The woman I married was also certainly theist in her wiccan beliefs, she believed something to the effect that we have reincarnation to new (human) lives and that there was sort of a universal system of karma that meant that bad things committed in a past life come back times 3 even if the payment to this karma comes in a future life (which is neat because it accounts for bad people who appear to never be punished).

My point is, not every theist cares to evangelize but I wouldn't doubt their convictions just because they are willing to take up with an atheist and not hassle them about the afterlife that the atheist doesn't even believe in.

You two have given examples of people for whom Heaven and Hell don't seem to be a part of their universe-view. I already excluded those people. Reincarnation is decidedly less drastic of a view. I was only talking about those who DO believe in eternal Heaven or Hell. My point is it doesn't seem logically consistent to me for THOSE people to not be obsessive and evangelical. How can someone believe those things and then not devote every moment of their waking life, this very minutely short life, to--

#1 Getting into Heaven and avoiding Hell themselves and
#2 Evangelizing to others in whatever manner is necessary to help them with #1.

If they profess to believe in Heaven and Hell and yet aren't obsessive and evangelical, then their behavior makes no sense to me.

Oh dalebert I do believe in somewhat of a heaven, but not streets paved with gold. I believe it is just another existence in which we have learned all of our lessons enough to not have to incarnate over and over. I don't believe we will even go there after we learn all the human lessons because I think then there are more to learn. I tend to see life as a school of sorts and when we graduate from human to whatever then different lessons. And in my opinion if life is a school, then the human race is probably just in kindergarten.

I dated a practicing catholic once. It was interesting.

I'm okay with dating theists. Religion is healthy and useful for a lot of people, and I'm not willing to write off the majority of the society I live in.

Quote from: dalebert

If they profess to believe in Heaven and Hell and yet aren't obsessive and evangelical, then their behavior makes no sense to me.

The first girl in my example very much does believe in hell, but she also believe that only god is allowed to judge sins. Therefore it wouldn't be the Christian thing to do, to try and judge someone as wicked in order to tell them to change thier ways. It all makes sense how she could be very devout and not harp on me about it while we were together.

There are quite a few people out there who believe that only god is allowed to judge and therefore they have no place trying to judge you are going to hell/heaven.

And I am glad that there are people who think like that too, seeing as I am exclusively attracted to women and I am not hiding the fact I am trans I already have a dating pool that is south of 1% of the population if I had to exclude people who believe in hell, seeing as the vast majority of Americans do, I would be looking at a local dating pool of probably 5 people in the whole metro DC area.

Quote from: Hikari on June 24, 2014, 03:56:19 AM
There are quite a few people out there who believe that only god is allowed to judge and therefore they have no place trying to judge you are going to hell/heaven.

Sure, but they believe they know the criteria by which he uses to judge. If not, then they believe it's essentially a crap-shoot as to where a person's soul spends all eternity and that's particularly disturbing. That'd be like me not telling you you're about to walk into a room filled with hungry lions because I don't want to be "preachy" (only much worse).

I'm just further expounding on my terms. I can date a theist. I could not, on the other hand, date someone who believes in Hell. If they believe in Heaven and that there are essentially unlimited opportunities to eventually get there over multiple lifetimes (basically a version of reincarnation), that I could tolerate in a potential mate. The belief in an eternal Hell is an automatic dis-qualifier (and possibly Heaven, depending on their version). Again, that's because they either must see this mortal life as meaningless or else they have extremely irrational and incongruous beliefs. Either of those are mindsets that I could not accept in a person I was spending a LOT of time with.

Quote from: dalebert on June 23, 2014, 08:27:37 PM
You two have given examples of people for whom Heaven and Hell don't seem to be a part of their universe-view. I already excluded those people. Reincarnation is decidedly less drastic of a view. I was only talking about those who DO believe in eternal Heaven or Hell. My point is it doesn't seem logically consistent to me for THOSE people to not be obsessive and evangelical. How can someone believe those things and then not devote every moment of their waking life, this very minutely short life, to--

#1 Getting into Heaven and avoiding Hell themselves and
#2 Evangelizing to others in whatever manner is necessary to help them with #1.

If they profess to believe in Heaven and Hell and yet aren't obsessive and evangelical, then their behavior makes no sense to me.

Well for one dalebert most people don't practice what they preach. Temptaion is their biggest downfall and there have been plenty of the TV type evangelist that have had that fall from grace. Funny thing is people will pick them up wipe the crocodile tears from their eyes and wipe the dust off of 'em and reach into thier pockets and make these folks even richer. That is what makes no sense to me. People are people and will do unscrupulous things and yeah I can forgive but I never forget.

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FeWNQ0bo.jpg&hash=9dabaaa4c1cfc0692114ceeef3b971043534e38a)

Quote from: dalebert on June 24, 2014, 07:37:42 PM
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FeWNQ0bo.jpg&hash=9dabaaa4c1cfc0692114ceeef3b971043534e38a)

Priceless. And unfortunately sad because it pretty much sums up what some people believe.

I don't believe in Hell because if there really is a literal Hell I have already been there and still go there every now and then and don't have to die to do it.

I am a agnostic...don't want to date a theist since they always want to proselytizing.
Is it okay a agnostic post on here?

Most likely not.

I don't think I would, no. Nothing against them, but it just seems like it would cause conflicts. I don't think my spiritual/religious views (or lack thereof) have to completely align with someone else's, so I think I'd be okay with an agnostic, a deist, or anyone along those lines, but I just don't feel my atheism and someone else's theism would mix too well. Especially if they were particularly devout.

On the other hand, it's still sort of a case by case basis, even with other atheists. My ex was much more of an anti-theist than I am, and that didn't mesh too well, either.

The best way I have heard it put is, it is all about values. If your values match it should be fine.

I could easily date a woman who had a belief in a deistic being who started off the universe and is watching to see what we do with it, but cares about social justice, art, and an interest in multiplayer co-op (non MMO) RPGs couldn't hurt :D.

As it is my current SO believes she has intuition powers, which is hard enough to deal with :P. I don't think I could relate to someone who shared my parent's fundamentalist religious views. I doubt I could keep my mouth shut.

Quote from: Annabella on July 14, 2014, 07:07:02 PM
The best way I have heard it put is, it is all about values. If your values match it should be fine.

THIS.

And that brings it back to specifics. What exactly do they believe? That's why I mentioned as an example, that belief in Heaven and/or Hell, particularly Hell, would be a deal-killer for me. But just believing in some sort of deity alone would not necessarily be a deal-killer. Unfortunately, a LOT of theists in the U.S. would be disqualified for me. And frankly, if they just seem really irrational, that would just not be an attractive trait. For instance, if they were really into ghosts, psychic phenomena, magic, and I don't mean the fantasy versions. I mean if they really believe in all that stuph and were really into it, then I would have a hard time being attracted to that person because that seems quite irrational to me and that's just not sexy at all. I have to be attracted to a person's body and mind.

Sapiosexuals have that problem :)

EDIT: Google helped, but yeah I totally would! I've no prob with theists, my girlfriend is a Catholic Christian & my boyfriend is an Athiest.

Also, I don't really see the point in saying "I could never date a ______" Because there are so many aspects to a person other than their beliefs, I personally would date anyone from any religion or without one, because I would focus on what I do like about them. As long as none of us are shoving anything anywhere, I'm not sure where the problem is. There are many awesome theists :/

When my girlfriend and I started to date, she was a theist. She has since lost her faith. So, dated a theist for a while. I would be ok if she went back to her faith as well (as long as she is happy).

Quote from: dalebert on July 15, 2014, 11:36:10 AM
THIS.

And that brings it back to specifics. What exactly do they believe? That's why I mentioned as an example, that belief in Heaven and/or Hell, particularly Hell, would be a deal-killer for me. But just believing in some sort of deity alone would not necessarily be a deal-killer. Unfortunately, a LOT of theists in the U.S. would be disqualified for me. And frankly, if they just seem really irrational, that would just not be an attractive trait. For instance, if they were really into ghosts, psychic phenomena, magic, and I don't mean the fantasy versions. I mean if they really believe in all that stuph and were really into it, then I would have a hard time being attracted to that person because that seems quite irrational to me and that's just not sexy at all. I have to be attracted to a person's body and mind.

I have this one friend who has stated on a few occasions he wants to be a Christian minister, and he tells me I am going to heaven. His logic being that god simply wouldn't punish those who are "good" merely out of their ignorance of Gods existence. He neatly folds Muslims, Wiccians, etc into that logic as well.

What would you think about someone like that, who believed in Hell, but believed that you were going to be together in Heaven in the end?

Also, yeah, people who really believe in ghosts and urban legends, etc are kinda crazy to me, I could never date someone like that. I mean I think religion is just as crazy, but lots of money, adverts, validation, etc is available for that, so I treat that differently.

I know I wasn't the one asked, but I really don't like the idea of Heaven and Hell, regardless of which one someone thinks I'm going to. They both kind of sound like eternal prison sentences to me. It's just like, "which prison would you like to go to?"

Am I the only one who doesn't see the appeal?

Quote from: Pikachu on July 17, 2014, 08:20:49 AM
I know I wasn't the one asked, but I really don't like the idea of Heaven and Hell, regardless of which one someone thinks I'm going to. They both kind of sound like eternal prison sentences to me. It's just like, "which prison would you like to go to?"

Am I the only one who doesn't see the appeal?

I don't believe in the basic common discriptions or concepts of heaven and or hell. I believe more in that they are states of being or right now with a human body states of mind. Heaven being happy blissfulness and hell being miserable torment. On a daily basis we go through both many times. We can also be in heaven one minute, something happen and be in hell the next.

What happens after we die, I haven't a clue. There are things I would like to believe but can't be proven. And maybe nothing after the six or so minutes it takes for the brain to die after the body if there is no head severe head trama at the time of death. Those six minutes maybe our eternity. Our state of mind at the time of death may decide whether that eternity that is six or so minutes decides Heaven or Hell.

I personally would like to think our consciousness survives after the death of the body and brain and it is no longer in bondage to both. And then the choice to enter the tunnel of light or stay behind. But not trapped here as a disembodied spirit stuck for some reason. But nothing can be proven util that day we all have to face eventually.

Quote from: Pikachu on July 17, 2014, 08:20:49 AM
I know I wasn't the one asked, but I really don't like the idea of Heaven and Hell, regardless of which one someone thinks I'm going to. They both kind of sound like eternal prison sentences to me. It's just like, "which prison would you like to go to?"

Am I the only one who doesn't see the appeal?

I am no fan of the concept either, but if someone thinks you are going to heaven (presumably with them) then they won't bug you much (my friend doesn't at least). If they think you are going to Hell, and care about you though, they might be much more in your face about getting you "saved". So, from a practical standpoint, it is easier if people think you are going to heaven.

I think anyone could see though, that neither heaven nor hell would hold any sort of enjoyment, at least based on Christian theology. Reincarnation seems much more interesting as an afterlife.

I'd date a theist, but it really depends on how they handle it. I'm agnostic, so I'm open to possibilities. I just don't want a religion forced on me because I never want to subscribe to one major belief again. I am tolerant of those who give me the same tolerance.

Quote from: Hikari on July 17, 2014, 07:32:06 AM
What would you think about someone like that, who believed in Hell, but believed that you were going to be together in Heaven in the end?

Already answered. It's not about just me. Just the thought that anyone is going to Hell is a kind of sadism that I can't get on board with. I don't even believe in the idea of punishment here in this life; much less one that serves absolutely no purpose whatsoever and lasts ALL ETERNITY. There are only a few options that come to mind for dealing with truly dangerous people. First one is rehabilitation and overwhelming evidence seems to demonstrate that punishment doesn't work well for that. If anything, it makes people worse. Second is keeping them away from innocents so they can't hurt anyone again. That would ideally be done only in desperate situations because the idea of locking a human being up like an animal is barbaric, AND it would be done humanely, i.e. not with the idea of making them suffer but actually allowing them to live as fulfilling life as possible but with their freedoms restricted in order to keep people safe. Thirdly, and in the most absolutely desperate situation, like someone is about to severely hurt an innocent person and it's the only way, then you kill them as an act of defense. You do it as quickly and painlessly as possible. It should never be about wanting someone to suffer. It should be to end suffering and harm to innocents. Vengeance is an irrational and animalistic motivation. If there's somehow a supreme being, I can't possibly wrap my head around it being as petty as humans manage to be.

Quote from: Pikachu on July 17, 2014, 08:20:49 AM
Am I the only one who doesn't see the appeal?

No. Reminds me of what Bart Simpson said about Hell. "Wouldn't you just get used to it after a while, kind of like when a bath has really hot water?" The same applies to Heaven. Good and evil, pleasure and pain... these things are meaningless one without the other. It's like a painting of all white or all black. Either one is empty and meaningless.

Of course I'm an atheist and I'm dating a Catholic lady. If you don't believe, you don't believe, so why would I care if she's Catholic? It's more about her ability to deal with me without saying I'm going to hell all the time which would really be quite unproductive. Again I would also think that is delving into hypocrisy all things considered.

Quote from: meh on July 18, 2010, 06:05:36 PM
Depends on why they believe there is a god. But I also find the whole "I'm not religious, but spiritual" thing on the same level as religious theists.

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Post Merge: July 18, 2010, 05:10:52 PM

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My mother is pretty religious, devout Roman Catholic (ew). When I told her I didn't believe, she goes "well god believes in you". Pretty disrespectful. She wants me to listen to her point of view, but refuses to listen to mine and she thinks that's okay.

For now your mom should respect your beliefs. She should pray for you silently in heart. If one day you are called to the Church, it will be, because it was meant to be. God is patient! :)

Quote from: Eevee on July 17, 2014, 10:44:38 AM
I am tolerant of those who give me the same tolerance.

For me it just all boils down to this. If they're theistic, that's their thing but as long as they don't force their beliefs upon me we won't have a problem. I don't think religion is a good thing to discuss anyways most of the time since it seems to be such a hot topic and some people out there have strong opinions. Oh well.. It is what it is. ^^

Quote from: dalebert on July 17, 2014, 11:35:01 AM
Just the thought that anyone is going to Hell is a kind of sadism that I can't get on board with. I don't even believe in the idea of punishment here in this life; much less one that serves absolutely no purpose whatsoever and lasts ALL ETERNITY.

It should never be about wanting someone to suffer. It should be to end suffering and harm to innocents. Vengeance is an irrational and animalistic motivation. If there's somehow a supreme being, I can't possibly wrap my head around it being as petty as humans manage to be.

I couldn't agree more with this. If there's an afterlife,...you're dead, shouldn't you be at peace?  It's not like you can undo something that would 'send you to Hell,' even if you DID regret it.

That reminds me of a quote by Richard Dawkins.  I can't quite remember the exact words, but it's something to to degree of how childish, selfish, and murderous that the god of the bible appears to be.

Quote from: dalebert on July 17, 2014, 11:35:01 AM

No. Reminds me of what Bart Simpson said about Hell. "Wouldn't you just get used to it after a while, kind of like when a bath has really hot water?" The same applies to Heaven. Good and evil, pleasure and pain... these things are meaningless one without the other. It's like a painting of all white or all black. Either one is empty and meaningless.

I've never quite thought of Heaven that way, but I've considered that quote about Hell before.  I suppose that, without anything negative in Heaven, there can't be anything to base what it "positive" off of it.  You don't know you're happy, because you don't know unhappiness.  And the barbaric punishment of Hell means my previous statement's idea, but vice versa.  You suffer forever, so long that you know nothing but suffering.  And who deserves to never be happy again because they did something that some old guys who wrote a book of stories, or an imaginary man in the sky deems to be 'wrong?'

no i would not date a theist.  i can ignore it and tolerate it in friends tho.  but date? never.

I haven't watched this yet so I have no opinion on what they say in it yet but it seems relevant to the topic.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kkubjjvVz6c

No, I wouldn't. I am very non-religious and I could never imagine myself being close to a very religious person.

I think I wouldn't date a theist. I'm an atheist to the core and I personally consider all sorts of sayings like "bless you" and whatnot else to be kind of insulting, especially if the person knows of me being atheist.

That being said, I actually have couple friends who are part of the Finnish pentecostals. They're great people and I'm actually able to have sensible discussions with them and they respect my view of life.

The Religious Society of Friends (more commonly referred to as Quakers, a term they've largely embraced even though it started as something of an insult) are also generally very cool about atheists, at least the New England area ones. Atheists are welcomed and their thoughts and opinions are given the same respect as anyone else's. Of course I could date most Quakers and most vaguely "spiritual" people as long as their beliefs aren't too dogmatically contrary to objective reality.

No.  It wouldn't work.

  In my case I avoid any sort of label.  There's probably some term that applies to me but I don't even want that and I don't want to be pressed by anyone to talk about it - I just want to exist.  I simply see the world around me as it is and treat people the way I want to be treated.  It's weird how much more this makes me feel like an outsider than anything else about me.  This all definitely shrinks the dating pool for me to 'a few drops' but I remain optimistic.

My, such strong feelings.  It has been mentioned many times here but there is for me a huge difference between religious belief and evangelical proselytizing.  Neither is benign, but the latter is highly objectionable to me. Belief in magic kills children by withholding medical care, refusing vaccinations, assuming that infinitely diluted pharmaceuticals are effective except as placebo, and is dangerous and wrong headed.  But unless I am willing to engage, those fallacies may go unchallenged.

I will however, share an evening with a believer and even compare thoughts as long as it doesn't stray too far into woo.  Where the line is drawn for me is at the level of behavior.  If you insist that there is an absolute spiritual truth, and that you or anyone else has a monopoly on it then I wish you peace and a good evening.  Or if you insist that unscientific medicine is better for your children than basic health care we also part ways, and I may start making phone calls.

But if you are a seeker and have wit and humour, then let's have dinner.  I feel the same way about hard core skeptics and atheists.  Yes critical thinking, rational argument and the scientific method are good, but lighten up and smell the coffee.  Even the foolish have their place in the sun, or however that saying goes.

I am a trans-woman.  I expect to be treated with courtesy and respect even by those who think I am delusional.  I am not trying to convince anyone of anything.  But if I expect people who do not understand gender dysphoria to be civil and accepting then I have to be at least as accommodating.  Yeah I know that isn't dating, but for me dating always flows from conversation and I hope I am willing to talk to pretty much anyone.

Peace.
Julie

Quote from: meh on July 18, 2010, 05:11:44 PM
I don't think I could date a theist or anyone claiming to be spiritual. Atheism is just one of those things that we both have to have in common to be able to be in a relationship. I can't see how atheists and theists make it work in a relationship.

I found this funny button pin the other day that said "I only date atheists". haha I need to get that.

Been there, tried it. It always becomes a source of contention so no, not again.

I agree that it's about values. I think I would sooner date a theist who shares my main values (the ones I will not compromise on) then someon who has a critical conflict with me in those values. I do think that most fundamental religious people, or people who prescribe blindly to the views of a church and judge good/evil (black and white thinking) will almost always clash with me on these values. The moment someone start judgjing people by a book telling them, or for not prescribing to their idea of what's right I'm out. I try to be accepting and show respect for everyones views and beliefs (so long they don't harm others) so I would have a hard time with a partner who judges so harshly.
I think I woud have a problem with a fundamental extremist 'anything' really. There always multiple sides to a story and I'd have a hard time with a person who can only see their own.

I have difficulty taking them seriously and would always regard myself as ideologically superior, so probably not. That's not to say I wouldn't lead an extremely one-sided, short-term thing based on my own interests, however, particularly if desperate.

Uh I have and at times their truth has came out ...


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My thoughts? If anyone cares? Who cares who you date as there is compatibility? There are Deists that aren't religious and atheist that are. ::) Yeah, before I get hit with rotten tomatoes please tell me that atheism isn't a rebellion against organized religions. The Church of Satan founded by Anton Le Vey was more or less atheist. No Satan and no God. Do I believe in God? I am starting to think, not so much. Do I believe in Satan? No. When I leave this world there will be a new Devil. >:-) Why serve in heaven when You can rule in Hell? If according to some we are evil or condemned being trans and so on I will take responsibility. I will gladly burn for others. But I don't believe that is the case. But even if so I will gladly accept it. That is how strongly I feel about it.

Why because I still believe that good is stronger than evil. Do I believe in God, not really anymore, or at least I don't know. Do I believe good and treating people with dignity and respect, most definitely. If I'm wrong I will gladly burn in hell for eternity if it helps someone to see the positivity in themselves, the uniqueness in themselves to see the love of themselves within themselves. Not to mention the ability to love someone and everyone else. If I have to burn in hell for eternity for that. So be it. I will just spend and eternity in a proverbial hell. I really don't care.

I will bet that transgenders are probably the closest to being more complete human beings and closer to Divinity than anyone else. That is all I will say from a spiritual standpoint. If I am wrong I will gladly  go to the seventh level of Hell in a fictional book called Dante's Inferno that was written long after the bible.

So would I date a theist, you bet I would. Would I date an atheist, again, you bet I would. I don't care what a person believes as long as they believe I'm the right one for them. I think we put too much emphasis on either and or instead of learning form each other. I have learned from both and I have loved from both sides of the argument in which shouldn't even be an argument anyway. We, none of us will know until after we take our last breath and then 6 minutes after. Why miss out on the possible love of your life because of beliefs that can't be proven?

So who would I date? Anyone that treated me with respect, treated me like a queen and loved me for who and what I am. Right now anything else is a fairytale or fantasy or dream. If I date someone that he or she don't believe in heaven or hell, he or she can take me to heaven and back or "hell" which I can kind of enjoy. :embarrassed: but treat me like a queen otherwise. Then that is what is important. Not what people believe what happens when after they die. Death is a sad thing. Why argue about what happens after?

All you do is limit yourself to who loves you and who you love. And love is an in the moment thing. Heaven or hell don't matter. Live in the moment. Be happy in the moment. That is heaven. If it turns to bad then that is hell. Forget about eternity, that will take care of itself. No matter what.

Yep Crazy Jess is at it again. but tell me I am wrong. Someone please. Other than a theist or atheist. Wow that don't leave too many people does it. So anyone, tell me if I'm wrong.

But please, don't miss out on love because of beliefs that can't be proven beyond a shadow of a doubt.

Quote from: meh on July 18, 2010, 05:11:44 PM
I don't think I could date a theist or anyone claiming to be spiritual. Atheism is just one of those things that we both have to have in common to be able to be in a relationship. I can't see how atheists and theists make it work in a relationship.

I found this funny button pin the other day that said "I only date atheists". haha I need to get that.

I'm open to most people. The only type of person I absolutely couldn't date are..."Agnostics". The kind of people who are atheist, but wont own it because they think atheism is a dirty word. God I can't stand that sort of thing. Whoever you are, whatever you believe...please...own it.

Quote from: AnonBear on November 08, 2014, 09:24:06 PM
I'm open to most people. The only type of person I absolutely couldn't date are..."Agnostics". The kind of people who are atheist, but wont own it because they think atheism is a dirty word. God I can't stand that sort of thing. Whoever you are, whatever you believe...please...own it.

I'm agnostic and not because I believe atheism is a dirty word but because absence of evidence does not mean evidence of absence. I own it. 

Quote from: Wynternight on November 08, 2014, 09:32:17 PM
I'm agnostic and not because I believe atheism is a dirty word but because absence of evidence does not mean evidence of absence. I own it.

Ditto. That's exactly how and what I own.

I'm also agnostic, and that's not because I think atheist is a dirty word either. I have my own reasons to identify that way and I'm honest and open about that.

I don't see why you would believe in something some old men wrote down because they couldn't explain it with facts.
However, as long as I wouldn't have to participate in the "rituals" I would be fine with it. It would probably create some problems anyhow though ...

Sure, I could date someone with a belief in something. But it'd have to be low key, not dictating their lives and mine by proxy. A 'private' sort of belief, not a public display and I'd be fine with. After all I don't go to atheist church, eat atheist food, or need to point out God's seeming lack of interest in the human race any chance I get. If someone else were to keep their beliefs similarly to themselves, then cool.

Couldn't date any sort of fundamentalist. That's when it gets ridiculous and I start to laugh, and not just because that word contains the word 'mentalist.'

I wouldn't be able to keep my opinion to myself. It would never last.

I'm married to a Christian, but I don't hold that against her, simply because I used to be Catholic (but, then I learned). She still asks every now and then if I could see myself believing in god again, to which I say, "Perhaps, but not likely. I've got this little thing called skepticism that prevents me from believing everything that people say is true." Then, she leaves it alone for a while. I can't help but feel like she's fighting a struggle within herself; that she's trying to reconcile her beliefs with her feelings for me. I've told her on multiple occasions that if, at any time, she feels that she can't be happy with me, I'd respect her decision to leave because she deserves to be happy as much as I do. So, yes, I could see myself dating a theist, but I also could not see myself dating an atheist who makes it a point to make people feel negatively about themselves for believing in what they do. I think honest and respectful discussion is the best way to reach understanding. If they're too staunch in their beliefs to continue dating me, then I don't have any hard feelings about it.

Depends on the type of theism. Someone who just believes in a creator, I wouldn't be able to understand, but I think we could date. A Christian, probably not. Don't get me wrong here, it's not because I'm intolerant of their beliefs... It's actually kind of the opposite. It's for the same reason I haven't told my parents I'm an atheist - it's because, to a Christian, me being a nonbeliever - at the very least - means that I will not get into heaven, or worse.

I would NOT want someone who loves me to have to deal with such worries. It would surely depress them, and it would probably create conflict - conflict that I couldn't really argue with, because I understand why it's bothering them.

But what do I know? I haven't dated in, like, forever. And I've never dated a Christian.

No, its a major red flag for me.

Only a Pastafarian that has been touched by his noodly appendage.

R'amen.

I believe in infinite universes. With infinite universes comes infinite laws of physics which will allow an infinite number of universes that have the physics to allow an all powerful being. Due to the nature of infinity that 'god' has the possibility of conquering any other universe.

By believing in this I cannot be an atheist, but am I a theist? And would you date someone with this belief.

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As far as dating goes, I would say no. I wouldn't turn down a friendship over it, but I couldn't see myself being romantically involved with one.

Several years ago, I dated a woman briefly.  Things were going fine until she invited me to her church.  I said I had no use for that nonsense.  For some reason, we never went out again.

I also had a friend in high school.  He was a great guy, until he turned 16 and started bible thumping.  I found out from him that because I wasn't going to his church (I was attending a different denomination at the time) I wasn't going to heaven!  While religion appeared more and more hokey, as I got older, that was probably the turning point where I came to the conclusion religion is absolute nonsense and a nonsense that's all too often used against others.

QuoteShe wants me to listen to her point of view, but refuses to listen to mine and she thinks that's okay.

That's typical of many "believers".  If you don't believe what they believe, you're wrong.  The church and other religious groups have a long history of using it to justify extreme violence.

QuoteAs an atheist, how do you solve the problem of the formation of the universe?  Theism and atheism both require a first cause to explain the universe.

QuoteThat's all well and dandy.  But I'm still waiting for an explanation of the formation of the universe (with or without a god) which is rational.

What we know of the universe is based on observation and fact.  While we might never know the entire picture, that simply means we don't have all the evidence.  It does not mean there's some divine being controlling things.

QuoteI also believe it takes just as much faith to declare that there is no god as it does to declare that there is.

Or more likely the courage to insist on evidence.  You may have heard of someone called Galileo.  He tried to show that the earth was not the centre of the universe, but was persecuted for that, as it challenged what the church insisted was fact.

QuoteI mean, I've come to the logical conclusion that it's not likely there's a God, but couldn't someone see all the strangeness of the universe and conclude that it's more likely this didn't come about as a random event?

If you believe in a god, then you have to explain where this god came from.  Seems to me, that's a much bigger problem than understanding the physics of the universe.  While we might never know the origins of the universe, it doesn't require a divine being.  It simply means we don't yet know.

QuoteI mean, take life for example. The process by which life is replicated requires a genetic code (DNA, e.g.), a way of transferring that code without destroying it (for us, a handful of enzymes so complex their structure defies human envisioning), and a way of using it to produce a copy of itself (for us, a ribosome, a biological structure so unbelievably intricate and compact that it rivals anything technology has created).

With any two of those mechanisms, life snuffs out as fast as it's created. The only way it replicates is if all three appear at pretty much the same time.

Could someone educated not conclude that this is something too unlikely to happen by chance?

Given all the billions and billions of galaxies, each containing billions and billions of stars, perhaps it was just the result of random interaction that occured at some point within the 14 or so billion years the universe has been around.  Some elements of life, such as amino acids and basic proteins have already been created in labs.

QuoteI pretty much see differences in theologies pretty much the same as differences al liking different TV shows, foods, Clothing or anything else.

How many people have been murdered because they prefer a different TV show?

Alright, now, there's no need to get into a debate over creation stories or whatever. This is a thread about whether one who is not a theist would date someone who is a theist. Let's not derail this thread any more than it already has been. Thanks. ;)

I am a Deist, Just as the Founding Fathers were. Love and believe in God. Church not so much. This is coming from someone who had Grandparents that were evangelical ministers. Ministers that aligned with so many quacks. Such as Aimee Semple McPherson, Oral Roberts, AA Allen, and Jim Bakker. They would happily spend hours watching people sitting in golden thrones, with pink hair and enough eye makeup to make clowns feel undressed. So to answer your question. Would a Christian date me. Not only date me, marry me, have my two babies and spend the last 35 years with me.

I used to think I would never be able to date a theist, but I was surprised when I did it to find that it didn't matter half as much as I thought. In that case we were able to find enough common ground in our politics, interests, and both being trans to make our religious views practically irrelevent. They were even training to become a vicar! If anything, the fact that they were not a mirror-image of myself made things more interesting.

Since then I have been a wobbly atheist-Quaker thing with one foot in each camp... I used to say that we either make up our own meaning in life and admit it, or make it up and pretend it was given to us by a God. I don't quite see it that way anymore but I found it to be a useful paradigm in the sense that, if it were true, theists were simply using a different vector to express an individuality that ultimately came from the same place. I think that softened things out for me.

These days my beliefs seem to change day by day and I couldn't care less whether or not my partner was a theist!

no, probably not.  i'll be friends with them, but it's too big of a difference to make a relationship work.  that may not be the case for other people, but for me it's a pretty huge deal because it says a lot about how they function as a person--which, in this case, is in a way that isn't really compatible with me for any kind of in-depth and long-term relationship.  and honestly, my personal beliefs/opinions would probably end up offending them anyway and that just wouldn't be fair to them, either.

I know this post is old, but I'm married to a theist. ( I was mildly religious when we start dating. ) I had to shed the religion in order to finally be able to live.

It works just fine as long as we're not disrespectful of each other. She doesn't go to church though, and isn't really preachy. I guess that's the other reason it works.

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Quote from: meh on July 18, 2010, 05:11:44 PM
I don't think I could date a theist or anyone claiming to be spiritual. Atheism is just one of those things that we both have to have in common to be able to be in a relationship. I can't see how atheists and theists make it work in a relationship.

I found this funny button pin the other day that said "I only date atheists". haha I need to get that.

I feel the same.  I don't want to talk to Fideist.  I think so little of them as people because of that belief that I cannot bring myself to even talk to them.  I can understand Deism / Agnosticism;  but as soon as they say something about the Bible or Koran I'm out of there.   I recently read Islam caused over 660+ million deaths since 700 AD.  Christianity is over 100+ million.  I just can't fathom invisible omnipotent / omniscient sky daddies and holy wars, obligatory wars, and just wars per those sky daddy instructions.  Studies have indicated that 6% of all wars in human history involved religion. I recently was reading a publication a scientist wrote using forensic archaeology and quantitative ethnography as his research foundation.  13% of every homicide in homo sapien history is estimated to have involved religion. Now that research shows neanderthals (before homo sapien) had religion 200K years ago;  that means 13% of all homicides over a 200K year period.   Incredible and disgusting, all at the same time.

I have studied plenty of religions (all the big name ones and some minor ones) enough to realize that it's not for me. I could date a theist, but I would end up arguing with them over their own religious text. I think I could, if I were so inclined, date a Hindu or a Wiccan/Druid, or just someone who believes in higher powers. Would I want a long-term relationship with them? That's really dependent upon how our relationship develops, but the answer is more than likely no.

I did date a theist, but she cheated on me with a friend of mine who also did not know and she then had the cheek to compare us to each other face to face.  We confronted her and told her to choose between us and she said she would let Jesus decide.

We both then immediately left her and she had neither of us!   Isolated case I'm sure, but just goes to show that religion doesn't always ensure morality!

Quote from: DawnOday on May 28, 2017, 02:03:41 PMWould a Christian date me.

Dawn standard joke living in the fundamentalist South like I do:

Quote from: Theism. . . is broadly defined as the belief in the existence of the Supreme Being or deities.[1][2] In common parlance, or when contrasted with deism, the term often describes the classical conception of God

Where's The Beef?

I submit for your approval "Hydrogen Is God" because it shares many of the same qualities attributable to "Him" !

• Most Elemental (from which all things come)
• All Powerful (rocket fuel comes from it)
• Most Abundant (occuring everywhere naturally except earth)

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