Susan's Place Transgender Resources

Just kinda wanted to start a thread about this, and welcome you to explain if you have it, or when you get it, or how much it sucks, or rocks.. or whatever.

i would have made this post a question but my situation doesn't really have a question, I just felt weird about the whole thing and wanted to talk to people who have it too.

ok well having a boyfriend, I actually know how a penis feels like now, so I think my phantom penis has gotten worse.  sometimes I will be sitting around and im imagining my penis flaccid against my thigh.. and i dunno if i like the feeling.. i mean its kinda nice but then i realize nothing is there

Quote from: Elijah on August 03, 2010, 06:24:12 PM
Just kinda wanted to start a thread about this, and welcome you to explain if you have it, or when you get it, or how much it sucks, or rocks.. or whatever.

i would have made this post a question but my situation doesn't really have a question, I just felt weird about the whole thing and wanted to talk to people who have it too.

ok well having a boyfriend, I actually know how a penis feels like now, so I think my phantom penis has gotten worse.  sometimes I will be sitting around and im imagining my penis flaccid against my thigh.. and i dunno if i like the feeling.. i mean its kinda nice but then i realize nothing is there

I always do this.

I don't really know either if I like the feeling or not, I think once I realise it's not there I just sorta try get it out of my mind.

Well that wasn't helpful/insightful at all sorry, but it's just a huge coincidence that I've been wondering recently whether anyone else does this.

I also had a phantom penis until my clit grew enough to somehow replace the phantom (although it's still damn small). Oddly, phantom balls I only had in the moments when I was afraid that I might get kicked there or something.

I get this in the "heat of the moment" and then it's like oh wait, nothing there :D

Freaky, when I first came here I didn't know anyone else got this. Mostly when I'm aroused, most other times it does not bother me. It kind of verifies my identity, but everything that verifies my identity is like a double-edged sword. My depression and angst confirms it.

It is kind of weird, but it's weirder that my parts are wrong.

Yup, I have a phantom dick. I couldn't come or really enjoy sex/masturbation until I really got "in touch" with it, so to speak.  Before I came out as trans I always visualised myself with a dick. It's weird, I can really feel it.

I also have a phantom dick. I can't really feel it when it's flaccid, but coincidentally I could never tell how big it was until just today. I was half asleep and felt own own phantom peen being hard and pressed against my leg. And because I was half asleep I totally forgot it wasn't real and started trying to... you know, touch myself. But it didn't really work.
Pretty weird experience.

Wow. I thought I was the only one who had this.  I usually feel it when I'm aroused. It's one of the reasons why I pack most of the time too, it just feels wrong to not have something there.

morning wood, hated being half asleep and reaching for something and finding nothing.

Been getting that sometimes lately myself. I'll just be sitting there and kind of feel like there's something tucked and pressed against my underwear, or a twitch...

I'll picture it there sometimes when I'm sexually involved, but still trying to avoid that. I don't want to suck the fun out of something I really enjoy :/

Like most who have posted already, yeah I get it mainly when I'm in a sexual situation or being aroused...or needing to take a piss.

It happens a lot when my gf and I are also intimate and her legs are wrapped around me. I loose thought for a while and I feel like I could really just slide it into her but I realize nothing's there. It bothers me sometimes but other times I just go "Meh...oh well".

Hands up and joining the club.

I just feel weird if I don't have my packer in. Which is why I wear it 24/7, even in the shower. Unless my dick ever gets to the size of an official micropenis (3in) then I'm pretty sure I'll always pack. My packer is my 'phantom penis' I guess. Before I used a packer I sorta had moments of the phanton dick.

you guys feeling phantom penis and testicles might explain why MtFs can happily lose penis and testicles without a moment's hesitation - the theory is that our brains being a bit crosswired don't actually recognise our male bits as ours...so logically you guys might have brains that expect there to be male bits and fills in the feelings of having them.
I lost my testicles without thought but a cisguy would drop into deepest depression - and when I had to show my penis to the surgeon and his secretary it was like they are moving a bit of waste skin around...and sex wise it didn't seem connected to the pleasure centre.
Now all we need is some folk in white coats actually show this theory to be fact.

I remember a thread about this a long time ago... back when I first joined... odd for it to be brought up again.

Anyway, yeah, I feel like that sometimes. It kinda sucks sometimes, because you know there's nothing there, but you feel like there is. And then I feel like my pants are too tight and get annoyed. I normally feel like that when I'm just sitting around. (And this right here would be the perfect awkward moment for someone to walk into my room...  :P)

Somehow I feel left out. I don't have a phantom penis. I do have a good fantasy penis when it comes to sexual situations, but that is something that takes concentration, not something that just happens naturally.

As a secondary statement, I also never feel the need to wear a packer. I use mine perhaps 2 or 3 times a year. It has never mattered to me at all with exceptions of the random days where I actually feel bad about not having a penis.

This thread kind of makes me curious about rather or not these two things are connected. It seems like a lot of you guys who do have the phantom penis also LOVE your packers, lol. :)

I get it when im aroused or need a piss. It sucks realising it's not there.

This is just great!  I didn't know other people felt this too, in fact using the same term that I have been of "phantom penis".

I only really noticed the phantom penis once I had finally given up living in denial and got to grips with my gender identity.  Now it makes random appearances, flaccid and erect.  And it is not me imagining what it would be like to have a penis, or wishful thinking.  It is just like having a phantom limb; as though there used to be a penis there but it has disappeared and it is the memory of it that just keeps returning.  And it does feel right and somehow comforting to wear a packer.  And I have gone through a few packers until I found one that was closest to the "memory".

Which brings me onto a related but slightly OT subject.  Just like the phantom penis phenomenon, my feelings of gender identity are like memories of having been male.  They are not so much "I should have a male body" but "I used to have a male body" and that, like grieving, I am finding it difficult to adapt to the fact that this is no longer the case.  Does anyone else get this?

Quote from: Papillon on August 05, 2010, 05:45:15 AM
like grieving, I am finding it difficult to adapt to the fact that this is no longer the case.  Does anyone else get this?

Yes, in that it feels like I am grieving to myself as well. Odd, isn't it all?

It is bloody odd.  On the face of it, we are grieving for something we have never had.

But I was discussing this with my SO the other day and it became apparent that I had quite a strong, implicit mental image of the man I "used to be".  It wasn't anything romantic or glamorous, as you might expect if this were an idealised alter ego, just an ordinary bloke.  And this got us talking about past life memories, which was a very, very bizarre realm to start thinking about.

Can it get any more odd?  I susepct so...

Quote from: Cowboi on August 05, 2010, 03:41:14 AM
Somehow I feel left out. I don't have a phantom penis. I do have a good fantasy penis when it comes to sexual situations, but that is something that takes concentration, not something that just happens naturally.

As a secondary statement, I also never feel the need to wear a packer. I use mine perhaps 2 or 3 times a year. It has never mattered to me at all with exceptions of the random days where I actually feel bad about not having a penis.

This thread kind of makes me curious about rather or not these two things are connected. It seems like a lot of you guys who do have the phantom penis also LOVE your packers, lol. :)

I basically feel like this, except I don't have a packer.  :P

I totally reject the idea that we have past lives as there aren't enough past people to go round...but one thing that might be worthwhile thinking about is: the possibility that some of you were genitally intersexed babies who were 'made right' and as its easier to chop of bits of male and make a vagina most babies seem to have ended up as girls but then they find that really they were males all along.
No-one seems to know how many thousands of these babies have been operated on over the years but it is still being done today even though no-one can know if any intersexed new baby will want to be male or female.
But if you have been having periods this will not apply.

You are, of course, entitled to your view on past lives, lilacwoman.  Personally, I remain agnostic on the subject.

As for being a "secret" intersex baby, that doesn't apply.  I have a fully functioning female body with two healthy children to prove it.  And I would be extremely surprised that the number of transmen apparently experiencing this phenomenon reflect the number of unacknowledged intersex babies.  But I may be wrong.

Not intersex, get the phantom penis, don't pack.

Quote from: lilacwoman on August 05, 2010, 12:05:41 PM
I totally reject the idea that we have past lives as there aren't enough past people to go round.

ah, but there are old souls and new souls on this earth.  That being said I don't have a firm opinion either way.

But that is a whole different topic.

I kind of feel it sometimes, but its quite brief and one of those things you're not quite sure if it really happened or not.  Don't pack much, but I do once or twice a week when i go to jiu jitsu at the very least.

Quote from: Papillon on August 05, 2010, 05:45:15 AMWhich brings me onto a related but slightly OT subject.  Just like the phantom penis phenomenon, my feelings of gender identity are like memories of having been male.  They are not so much "I should have a male body" but "I used to have a male body" and that, like grieving, I am finding it difficult to adapt to the fact that this is no longer the case.  Does anyone else get this?

Yes I had that too.

Quote from: lilacwoman on August 05, 2010, 12:05:41 PM
I totally reject the idea that we have past lives as there aren't enough past people to go round...but one thing that might be worthwhile thinking about is: the possibility that some of you were genitally intersexed babies who were 'made right' and as its easier to chop of bits of male and make a vagina most babies seem to have ended up as girls but then they find that really they were males all along.
No-one seems to know how many thousands of these babies have been operated on over the years but it is still being done today even though no-one can know if any intersexed new baby will want to be male or female.
But if you have been having periods this will not apply.

I think we would see or feel scars then. No scars in my case, so no unwanted surgery.

I have a phantom penis.  I didn't know anyone else experienced the same thing until I read this.  I mostly just experience it when I'm aroused.

i have it, i used to feel it a lot more often, but years of denial kinda made it less sensate. lately it's been coming back a bit more, and i can even sortof feel it when i touch it during certain "activities". it could be my imagination, but that's ok too  :D

also: the likelihood that i have had past lives is far greater than the likelihood that i was actually born intersex

I haven't had my phantom penis in quite some time, probably because I pack all the time except in the shower. At least...I don't ever feel like something is there and then reach down to find that nothing is. When I feel that something is there, it's because something is there.

Wow, that sounds kinda stupid. But you know what I mean, I hope.

I must say I've never seen any mention of phantom penisses in any trans studies written either for or against TSism.
So maybe some researcher should take it up?

Quote from: lilacwoman on August 06, 2010, 02:17:58 AM
I must say I've never seen any mention of phantom penisses in any trans studies written either for or against TSism.
So maybe some researcher should take it up?

Definitely. And also the other phantom stuff, like phantom beard, phantom muscles, phantom breasts etc. This not being found in trans studies in my opinion shows that the researchers don't listen to us or take us seriously.

Quote from: Papillon on August 05, 2010, 05:45:15 AMThey are not so much "I should have a male body" but "I used to have a male body" and that, like grieving, I am finding it difficult to adapt to the fact that this is no longer the case.  Does anyone else get this?

The worlds that I lived in were completely real to me. As teenage boys, I had adolescent bodies and was loved and taken care of by my dad and my two daddies. As male adults, I had mature bodies and essentially fathered myself...myselves? My gay dad was hands off--we never had sex--but my two daddies were all over me. I miss that more than I can express. As some folks here have observed, the mind is a powerful sex organ.

My experiences might not even come close to what it's "really" like to live in a typical male body, but I do have tons of memories about what it was like to live in MY male bodies.

After two years of living without my other worlds, I think I can safely say that the worst of the grieving is over. But I still have times during which I mourn for what I no longer have. And I still have the memories and the yearning. I miss my men. One of them (I'll call him D) recently morphed himself into a person who could come into this world and offer me support, but the environment and our relationship have changed so much that he's like a different person. Everything's so different that we're having to make up new rules. And my current body is so unlike the body I used to have in that arc that I sometimes have bizarre moments of disjunction between fantasy and reality. It's not a phantom penis experience; I suppose it's best described as a phantom body experience. As a child, I learned very quickly to keep fantasy and reality separate, so I'm not used to this kind of crossover with D or with me.

I want and need to be the boy again. But as my dad very sensibly reminds me, that boy was just a holding pattern, a way to stay sane. He does not exist anymore except in my memories, and I now have to move forward and grow into a man in my current body.

I'm grateful that D is here. I'm especially grateful that he's not one of the ones I had sex with; that would be unbearable. I still wish I could go back to the old way of living. But something inside me keeps me here, in the real world. Two years ago, that part of me realized that unless my men cut me loose, I would never transition, and I would end my life prematurely or wind up living in an empty husk of a female body with a twisted or absent mind.

I guess I feel safe enough and grounded enough to have a modified version of D in my life now. But I miss what he used to be, and I miss what I used to be when I was with him.

On phantom genitalia: I don't know exactly what it's like to have a phantom limb, not being an amputee. I hesitate to insist that what I have is exactly the same experience. But I do have...something...that's not exactly under the category of dysphoria - a sensation not only that something ought to be there, but that something is there. It was really hard to explain (or even understand) as a child exactly why it was that I was so terribly uncomfortable with pants, tights, or leggings that were tight in the pelvic area, or ways of sitting/walking that crowded that area, especially right over my pubic bone. Not just "I don't want things pressing uncomfortably hard there" but "I need lots of space" (for what? air?) It's a strangely physical sensation of discomfort, even though I can't quite locate it on my actual body.

It's really odd/disorienting though because I can't locate it. It's really hard to describe, because it feels like external discomfort, but it also feels like it's located somewhere inside me. Any attempt to verbalize it ends up not making any sense. It's not in the same place, exactly, as where I get the phantom sympathy pains from seeing a guy get kicked in the balls - that's pretty clearly located deep in my abdomen/radiating outward. But it's related to that place in some way that I can't describe.

As this phantom genitals seems to be quite a common thing and is the opposite of the lack of belonging that MtFs feel maybe we should all try contacting the researchers we know and get some input?
I have a fairly direct line to one European researcher and I have a friend who has line to a US one so I'll try get their ideas on this phantom business.

an interesting read with a very interesting tidbit of information in the last paragraph of page 1
http://www.cosmosmagazine.com/node/1648 (http://www.cosmosmagazine.com/node/1648)

QuoteThe survey showed that aside from the fact that male-to-female transsexuals were less likely to report the phenomenon of a phantom penis than heterosexuals, 60 per cent of female-to-male transsexuals interviewed reported the sensation of phantom penises since early childhood

"less likely to report the phenomenon of a phantom penis than heterosexuals"

...this confuses me

by "heterosexuals" do they mean cis-people?

Interesting article!  Thanks for posting it.

I think that in the context of the article, "heterosexuals" refers to cissexual heterosexual men (whose penises have been amputated).

QuoteExperts at the University of California in San Diego, USA, found that 60 per cent of interviewed heterosexual men who had their genitals surgically removed following cancer claimed to continue to experience the sensation of having a penis. . . Intriguingly, the same study showed that only 30 per cent of originally male transsexuals, whose genitals had been removed as part of gender reassignment, reported the same phenomenon. . . .  60 per cent of female-to-male transsexuals interviewed reported the sensation of phantom penises since early childhood.

So, in this study, FTMs had the same rate of phantom penises as cis-male amputees.  Interesting.

Ah yes, reading the article properly instead of skimming it made it make a lot more sense :P Still weird that they chose the word "heterosexuals" to mean the amputated men

Okay while I agree that there obviously is a phantom penis phenomenon going on I do not think that what everyone here is describing is actually a phantom penis at all.

For example, when aroused you may feel slightly like there is something there to get hard or excited... because your clitoris has the same sensations. It does often become hard, it twitches, it moves, etc. I don't hear a lot of people saying that when they get sexual excited they can feel a penis laying across their abdomen or things like that. The sensation that it is "standing" or "hard" is easily explained by the physical reaction of the clit.

The discomfort in pants that are tight can be caused by several things outside of a phantom penis as well. A lot of people have discomfort in clothes that fit a certain way, it can be as simple as a personal preference in the way they hang on or hug your body. I personally like pants that fit but aren't tight for several reasons.
-I sweat A LOT.
-If the crotch is too tight it can rub against or pull at my pubic hair (even through underwear).
-Sometimes they feel crowded or too tight.
-Often the seams will rub against my legs and create a sore spot from the friction.

None of these things that bother me about tight pants have anything to do with a phantom penis. They are normal. I don't feel that the crotch of the pants is hugging my dick to tight, or that my penis has to lay a certain way in them that causes discomfort.

So unless you actually have the phenomenon of FEELING that a penis is there through ideas like it is laying against your body somehow I don't really think that the phantom penis theory fits completely. It kind of seems like some of the responses are just things that can be explained easily and accurately with your body as it is, with or without a phantom limb of sorts.

It may not be a happy thing for some people to hear but some of these things just are not related to a phantom penis at all. A lot of it is natural body reactions, personal preferences and just flat out fantasy. I'm certain some people do have an actual phantom penis sensation, I am sure that many of the people who have posted here do have them, however I think that some of the responses can be explained with reason rather than this theory.

Quote from: Cowboi on August 06, 2010, 08:49:23 PM
Okay while I agree that there obviously is a phantom penis phenomenon going on I do not think that what everyone here is describing is actually a phantom penis at all.

For example, when aroused you may feel slightly like there is something there to get hard or excited... because your clitoris has the same sensations. It does often become hard, it twitches, it moves, etc. I don't hear a lot of people saying that when they get sexual excited they can feel a penis laying across their abdomen or things like that. The sensation that it is "standing" or "hard" is easily explained by the physical reaction of the clit.

The discomfort in pants that are tight can be caused by several things outside of a phantom penis as well. A lot of people have discomfort in clothes that fit a certain way, it can be as simple as a personal preference in the way they hang on or hug your body. I personally like pants that fit but aren't tight for several reasons.
-I sweat A LOT.
-If the crotch is too tight it can rub against or pull at my pubic hair (even through underwear).
-Sometimes they feel crowded or too tight.
-Often the seams will rub against my legs and create a sore spot from the friction.

None of these things that bother me about tight pants have anything to do with a phantom penis. They are normal. I don't feel that the crotch of the pants is hugging my dick to tight, or that my penis has to lay a certain way in them that causes discomfort.

So unless you actually have the phenomenon of FEELING that a penis is there through ideas like it is laying against your body somehow I don't really think that the phantom penis theory fits completely. It kind of seems like some of the responses are just things that can be explained easily and accurately with your body as it is, with or without a phantom limb of sorts.

It may not be a happy thing for some people to hear but some of these things just are not related to a phantom penis at all. A lot of it is natural body reactions, personal preferences and just flat out fantasy. I'm certain some people do have an actual phantom penis sensation, I am sure that many of the people who have posted here do have them, however I think that some of the responses can be explained with reason rather than this theory.

Interesting to note ... up until about 8-11 weeks (I think, don't quote me! but it's around there) in a human fetus, gender is indistinguishable. When the change happens is when either testosterone or estrogen kicks in and starts to form either male or female genitals (or a variant of that as some are born with). The structures are pretty much the same though until they get enough hormones to really take form. The penis and the clitoris are basically very close in structure and to some extent function.

silly question sparked by insideontheoutsides post: has any surgeon attempted to transfer a piece of vein from, say, the leg and pass it down the length of the  the clitoris and attached it to the opening of the urethra to allow FtMs to pee standing up?
Vein stripping is a regular operation so if a transplanted vein can be kept alive down the centre of the clitoris it would allow standing pees.
Any medical 101 students care to comment on the possibilities/problems?

Quote from: lilacwoman on August 09, 2010, 01:44:42 PM
silly question sparked by insideontheoutsides post: has any surgeon attempted to transfer a piece of vein from, say, the leg and pass it down the length of the  the clitoris and attached it to the opening of the urethra to allow FtMs to pee standing up?
Vein stripping is a regular operation so if a transplanted vein can be kept alive down the centre of the clitoris it would allow standing pees.
Any medical 101 students care to comment on the possibilities/problems?

it has to be mucusal tissue or skin (...) because the ph of urine will damage a transplanted vein.

It could all be in my head or what Cowboi wrote or any similar of things, but I have felt some sort of sensation down there doesn't correspond with female genitalia.  Almost constantly there's the steady "weight" of something there and the urge to rearrange something that isn't there but feels like it's there so I can sit properly at times or so I can wear certain clothing items.  Rarely is it a sporadic sensation such as during arousal, when the sensation usually diminishes or disappears all together, only to come back afterwards and give me some discomfort because I want to move something or adjust something to be more comfortable but that something doesn't exist and I know it doesn't exist.

I can look down and see there's no penis, but my mind says that there is or there should be despite knowing there isn't and that there will never be.

I hope that made sense, I'm tired and trying to think properly.

@Shang

makes perfect sense to me.

Well, it just came to my mind that it could all be worse. Imagine we all had phantom crab lice  :o

@ Fencesitter:  *shudder* That'd be horrible!

I makes me cringe just thinking about it!  Now I'm going to go around thinking bugs are crawling on me. :P XD

I had an awesome dick dream last night! I was in a gay club but I was freaking out because I was wearing girls undies and I was getting hard and it was bursting out. It was a real dick but I could also remove it and wave it around! I was waving it at some guy who was in a cage wanking - kinky right?

Quote from: lilacwoman on August 09, 2010, 01:44:42 PM
silly question sparked by insideontheoutsides post: has any surgeon attempted to transfer a piece of vein from, say, the leg and pass it down the length of the  the clitoris and attached it to the opening of the urethra to allow FtMs to pee standing up?
Vein stripping is a regular operation so if a transplanted vein can be kept alive down the centre of the clitoris it would allow standing pees.
Any medical 101 students care to comment on the possibilities/problems?

You know, I forget what it's called but there's some specific thing where they reroute stuff. There's probably mention of it in the "bottom surgery" thread although I haven't looked in that thread myself!

Hmm. I wonder if there have been any neuroimaging studies related to this.

(I have one too.)

And Cowboi... I don't think dismissing them as "not real phantoms" is valid. It can be a gradation. The intensity of the sensations can vary from person to person-- but what I think we all have is the feeling that there's supposed to be a penis there, and this feeling comes from something low-level (bottom-up processing, from "deeper down" in the brain) rather than simple wishing it was there. I'm not sure about the neuroanatomy of this, but I'd be really interested in seeing if we could differentiate the somatosensory cortex of FTM people versus cisgender women somehow.

For me, it's a feeling of incongruence. It's strongest during sex, and I can attest that when it DOES feel more like things match up (due to usage of simultaneous strap-on and stimulation, or packing/binding), it's not just a fantasy being fulfilled; my body feels more "right" at a base level.

And people, don't dismiss something as "all in your head". :P Your head's pretty damn powerful.

I'm only here 'cause of the Degrassi thread, but I have to admit, this topic is fascinating!  'Cause, like, I often feel like I have real boobs, too, but then I don't (yet) - like when I just wake up...  Sounds kinda like what y'all are talking about, forgive me if it's not... but I didn't guess others had the same sort of thing...

Quote from: insideontheoutside on August 09, 2010, 08:10:25 PM
You know, I forget what it's called but there's some specific thing where they reroute stuff. There's probably mention of it in the "bottom surgery" thread although I haven't looked in that thread myself!

female urethra isn't long enough?   maybe if they siamesed the two ureters and gained a few inches of urine tolerant tubing to insert in the clitoris?
there are various synthetic tubes that would work as well.

Quote from: lilacwoman on August 10, 2010, 03:13:33 AM
female urethra isn't long enough?   maybe if they siamesed the two ureters and gained a few inches of urine tolerant tubing to insert in the clitoris?
there are various synthetic tubes that would work as well.

Female urethra is only 4 cm.

I do think it would be interesting to know the differences between how cis women feel and how transmen feel, it would definitely answer some questions that have been raised here as far as rather or not things are natural or normal.

At the same time though the fact is that some of the things that have been said do not sound like a phantom limb issue at all. It's not a dismissal of people's feelings, it's merely looking at it in a logical way. It is a physical response from a portion of the body that is essentially the same in both genders when it comes down to the basics. Both get hard, both twitch or move on their own, both get sensation from extreme blood flow, etc. In essence the clit and the penis are the same thing, that is why the clit is exactly what becomes the penis in the uterus.

Who doesn't want to say that yes there is something so male about us on the inside that we even FEEL male on the outside and it feels natural and right to us? We are all here because we identify as trans to some degree or another, it is only logical to follow that sometimes we can convince ourselves that something which is completely natural and normal for someone with our physical body is really a beautiful in-depth thing that displays to us and to the world that our bodies just aren't as they were meant to be.

We can do all of the physical studies everyone has mentioned but it won't change the hundreds of psychological studies that have been done showing that it is more likely that we WANT to have this sensation, we WANT to feel this way and so when it is brought up by another person we do. It's a natural human reaction, when you hear what you WANT to hear it becomes what you WANT it to be and means what you WANT it to mean. It's desire, it's normal, it's natural and every single person has done it at some point or another. It's not some kind of phenomenon, it's a psychological reaction that has been studied, documented and proven right over and over and over and over again. It's called PSYCHOSOMATICS. With the appropriate suggestion we can all actually feel something.

Once again, I am not saying that any particular people here are crazy or making it up or whatever. I'm not dismissing that MANY of us could have a phantom penis. I'm merely pointing out that not all of these things sound like a phantom limb and that perhaps there is some band wagon jumping going on in this thread. Honestly if there wasn't any band wagon jumping going on that would be a much larger phenomenon than the phantom penis.

Quote from: Cowboi on August 10, 2010, 03:32:52 AMWe can do all of the physical studies everyone has mentioned but it won't change the hundreds of psychological studies that have been done showing that it is more likely that we WANT to have this sensation, we WANT to feel this way and so when it is brought up by another person we do.

You make me curious now. Do you have any information on these studies?

The psychosomatic stuff is exactly what I'm talking about, though. That is an important factor, and it's also important in phantom limb studies, as well as "hysteria" (conversion disorder). It's important in anything that involves top-down processing in the brain.

What it comes down to for me is that someone who has "convinced themselves" of these sensations and has them is still experiencing exactly what we might call a phantom sensation. The whole "cross-wiring" idea? That lower-level process could equally well be caused by being deeply convinced-- a higher-level process. That's how placebos work, and boy, do they work.

The fact that there is no sensory (tactile) input that causes them is exactly what makes something a phantom, and since we (and neuroscience) don't know exactly how phantom body parts work, I don't see the point in excluding an experience that fits this way.

I heard about this some years back when I was talking to a friend and they were telling me about how sometimes people that lose a limb can or will have that limb still feel like it's there, ie. phantom limb....but then, none of us had one to begin with (Unless we're one of the unlucky few that were born hermaphrodite and it was chopped off at birth) but I think it makes sense to me since, well...all my life I had it in my head that I was meant to be male and for some odd reason during pregnancy something just messed up...I have had this feeling all my life that I had something there and if my girlfriend talks dirty to me or I get aroused it seems more prominent. But yeah..there -should- be a study on this..It might be interesting on what they may find...

I don't have a phantom penis, mine just isn't as big and knows less "tricks" than some dudes  :laugh:

Quote from: elvistears on August 09, 2010, 06:43:40 PM
I had an awesome dick dream last night! I was in a gay club but I was freaking out because I was wearing girls undies and I was getting hard and it was bursting out. It was a real dick but I could also remove it and wave it around! I was waving it at some guy who was in a cage wanking - kinky right?

Awesome, how come I never have dreams like that.  I once had a nightmare that I was walking around wearing just a t-shirt and everyone could tell I had no penis.  Depressing.

I do get the phantom penis thing.  Usually when I'm turned on and I want to use something that's not there.  It can really get me down, but my partner is very good at distracting me.  Its often best not to dwell on these things.

@Brainiac

Thank you very much for your explanation! I always wondered what is going on there. It is very interesting to read that it could theoretically go both ways - the phantom thing causing part of what being trans is like, and being trans causing a phantom penis sensation.

It would be interesting to find a transsexual who has both lost a limb and has this trans phantom part feeling and ask them if it's actually the same kind of feeling or very different.

Quote from: brainiac on August 10, 2010, 08:12:25 AM
The psychosomatic stuff is exactly what I'm talking about, though. That is an important factor, and it's also important in phantom limb studies, as well as "hysteria" (conversion disorder). It's important in anything that involves top-down processing in the brain.

What it comes down to for me is that someone who has "convinced themselves" of these sensations and has them is still experiencing exactly what we might call a phantom sensation. The whole "cross-wiring" idea? That lower-level process could equally well be caused by being deeply convinced-- a higher-level process. That's how placebos work, and boy, do they work.

The fact that there is no sensory (tactile) input that causes them is exactly what makes something a phantom, and since we (and neuroscience) don't know exactly how phantom body parts work, I don't see the point in excluding an experience that fits this way.

Ah, one of those wonderful we are both going the same direction with something and missed each other along the way conversations lol. Gotta love it when that happens. I completely get what you are saying now and agree. It would be very interesting to see studies done about these issues. I'm curious how close things would match up between someone who has a phantom limb they actually lost and someone who has one that was never there to begin with.

Quote from: Fencesitter on August 10, 2010, 04:40:10 AM
You make me curious now. Do you have any information on these studies?

To be honest there are too many to even know where to begin to point someone. Just do some research on psychosomatic studies. I'm not saying that there are specific studies on trans people who believe they have body parts, but in general there are tons of studies showing how people tend to suddenly "feel" or "believe" something is true once they hear it from someone else (especially from a large number of other people).

If you are genuinely interested in this type of stuff take a psychology class or two, it all is really interesting actually, or at least I think it is :)

Quote from: Cowboi on August 12, 2010, 01:49:24 AM
To be honest there are too many to even know where to begin to point someone. Just do some research on psychosomatic studies. I'm not saying that there are specific studies on trans people who believe they have body parts, but in general there are tons of studies showing how people tend to suddenly "feel" or "believe" something is true once they hear it from someone else (especially from a large number of other people).

If you are genuinely interested in this type of stuff take a psychology class or two, it all is really interesting actually, or at least I think it is :)

Oh I see.... that's a bit sad as I had been looking forward to reading specific trans phantom body parts studies. But thanks anyway.

Quote from: Cowboi on August 12, 2010, 01:43:42 AM

Ah, one of those wonderful we are both going the same direction with something and missed each other along the way conversations lol.

Haha, high five.

And yeah, this area of research is really fascinating. One of my psychology professors specifically works on hypnosis, placebos, and other instances of top-down (mind to brain, I guess you could call it :P) influence in the brain. This stuff is eye-opening, whether you're a hardcore skeptic or mystic or just interested in psychology and neuroscience.

Fencesitter, if I ever get involved in research in phantom limb studies (right now I'm doing more cognitive stuff), I'll try to run it for you. :)

I have this too, to the point where I'll get into cold water up to my crotch and start worrying about shrinkage. ;D

Quote from: Papillon on August 05, 2010, 05:45:15 AM
Which brings me onto a related but slightly OT subject.  Just like the phantom penis phenomenon, my feelings of gender identity are like memories of having been male.  They are not so much "I should have a male body" but "I used to have a male body" and that, like grieving, I am finding it difficult to adapt to the fact that this is no longer the case.  Does anyone else get this?

This.  Maybe why I'm neither here nor there on the gender thing - there's not enough "should" to push me over to the guy side completely, but enough "used to" that wearing skirts/dresses/makeup sure feels like crossdressing, like someone's going to notice...something.

I can tell you that when I wore a pair of tight boyshort-style women's underwear, and looked down, it was incredibly disturbing to find myself...well, as anatomically impaired as a Ken doll.  So very, very wrong, yet these things seem to sell well enough, so I would suspect that my reaction is not the same as most cis-and-happy-about-it women wearing them.  Haven't worn them since.

I can conjure up a "fantasy dick" if I want to when aroused, but I don't think it's quite into the realm of "phantom", as it only exists when I'm actively thinking about it.  The real live parts I grew myself have always been a bit of a letdown, particularly the boobs ("Yeah, you can play with them if you like, just don't expect me to notice much, it's not like they're mine..."), so I figure I might as well go with whatever works, in the imagery department.  I certainly get the impulse to cross my legs and wince in sympathy when someone receives a particularly painful injury, or is likely to, though.  (unless, of course, it's a safety situation where I have to deliver it.)  And when I did gymnastics, I always hated balance beam for fear of being crotched far more than falling off it and not hitting it on the way down!

Quote from: Kareil on August 18, 2010, 12:41:13 PM
The real live parts I grew myself have always been a bit of a letdown, particularly the boobs ("Yeah, you can play with them if you like, just don't expect me to notice much, it's not like they're mine...")

yea I'm like that with my boyfriend.  I dont like him LOOKING at them, but he can feel them, or lick them.. but I dont really connect with it.  it feels ok, but not amazing.

Quote from: Elijah on August 18, 2010, 04:41:25 PM
yea I'm like that with my boyfriend.  I dont like him LOOKING at them, but he can feel them, or lick them.. but I dont really connect with it.  it feels ok, but not amazing.

Pretty much any other part of my body has more feeling than they do - the actual breast skin is nearly a dead zone, and while the nipples have more feeling, the only sensations that register are "irritating" if someone's playing with them, or "chapped" if someone's licking them.  If I ever had a baby, it'd be the world's youngest Chapstick addict, because I'd probably be hitting the stuff before and after every feeding!  I don't think I've been with a bio-guy who hasn't had a better relationship with his nipples than I do with mine, though I'm filing "ticklish" as enjoying them more, not less, which may be entirely wrong.  It's like the nerves just didn't wire up right with them, for me.

I apologize for the thread necromancy, but I just found this article:

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=you-are-what-you-touch (http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=you-are-what-you-touch)

Of course, what comes to mind for me is packers (especially hard packers), and the feeling that they're something solid to map your mental penis onto.

I don't have one at all because my fantasy has to be realistic and the reality for me is I don't have a penis so I don't have a phantom penis.