Susan's Place Transgender Resources

Catholic Exchange to trans woman: "It is better to die than to offend God"
The Bilerico Project
Filed by: Austen Crowder
August 24, 2010 11:30 AM


http://www.bilerico.com/2010/08/catholic_exchange_to_trans_woman_-_better_to_die_t.php (http://www.bilerico.com/2010/08/catholic_exchange_to_trans_woman_-_better_to_die_t.php)


"Now I am going to say something that may seem harsh but remember I am talking to you about objective reality - where the rubber meets the road. It is better to die than to offend God. It would have been better for you to have given your life to stay in obedience to God,  than to break His law and to drag along into sin your poor spouse. At some point -- along with those who denied Christ under persecution and later felt remorse, you will have to say, "It would have been better for me to have died instead." That is hard, but really everyone of us should feel that way about every serious sin we have committed. We should prefer the death of our bodies to the death of our souls, shouldn't we?"

Why would transition offend god? I really would like to see what they have to back this up (bible verses?)

Reading this makes me wish I could do something to make those people see what they are doing.
But I realize that there will always be close minded people with no interest in looking beyond ther own situation which they consider normal and into those of others. They do not understand and don't make any effort to understand.
How can one possibly speak of love when they do so much to hurt other people?

Okay I saw this and just have to say... "though shall not judge" why can't these people understand that? :( I mean I guess maybe I look at it odd but I figure yes, I've sinned. I don't think being trans is a sin but I figure if when I get wherever I go after I die it will be between me and god. I think at that time those people will be judged for how they judged others...

Quote from: Dee_pntx on August 24, 2010, 09:24:50 PM
There is no god.

I am christian and I have to say that your statement was kind of uncalled for. I wasn't offended, I just don't think it was necessary for you to say that because we are all entitled to our beliefs. Of course, I don't agree with this article either. How the hell do they know this offends god?
Everyone sins. EVERYONE. I'm sure these pricks have done things to offend god like for example, judge this woman, but of course they're still alive. It's THEIR ->-bleeped-<-ing prejudice that they hide behind god with.
These people call themselves ->-bleeped-<-ing christians and it hurts.

Quote from: Dee_pntx on August 24, 2010, 11:12:35 PM
Everyone does NOT sin.  There is no god therefore I can not break the "laws" of this imaginary, invisible entity.

I have to agree with Kyle XD here and say I agree the language is a bit uncalled for.  I'm no longer Christian, however I do have a faith which has a pantheon of gods.  I am just as uncomfortable with someone saying to anyone else "there is only one god" or "there is no god," just as I would if those of my own faith were to say at a forum "there are many gods" as a statement of truth with no qualifications that it is their own belief with the right of others to be entitled to their own.

Taking the risk of moving the debate off topic, I have to remark that I have since long removed myself from any religion.
When I look at this world I see that many people hide their objectives behind a so called God. His name has been used to justify ones goals and to inflict terrible sorrow on others. Plus the fact that everyone seems to think different about this deity is proof enough for me that nobody is right on this subject.
Being raised a christian I decided to drop all indoctrinated knowledge and start over again by simply reading the books of past masters. I discovered a whole world behind the bible: gospels that never made it into the canonized version. I read the Qu'ran, the Thora and the works of the Buddha. Now being busy with the Greek and Roman masters I recall on the early Christan gnostic faith: "Don't let others decide for you how to believe. Find your own lessons in the teachings of Jesus and live to this example"

In short: Do I believe in a God? No, but I do try to learn about the ideology and take good morale as an example for my own life.
I am not afraid for eventual future judgment by a deity for I try to live life as I see just without acting to religious laws I simply don't understand.

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.smbc-comics.com%2Fcomics%2F20100414.gif&hash=406c62245c389ef2390b42e2fc94ee8ffa536ab1)

Lawl just Kyle is fine dude.
Technically even if people do not sin under the name of god, they still commit acts that are not exactly things to be proud of, yet people still do them over death.
Fyi Insisting that there is no god doesn't make you any better than hyper religious people that try to preach their beliefs on you. I'm not saying that you aren't titled to your opinion, its just something to think about.

Quote from: Dee_pntx on August 25, 2010, 12:09:41 AM
Whatever.  There still is no god.  Live life in whatever manner floats your boat.
You can't argue with "believers". 

I've said all I have to say.

I just don't see why you seem to be trying to. You're an athiest, that's great, so am I but there's no need to go around saying "I don't believe in god." You probably don't like it when they go around telling everyone about their god so it would be hypocritical to do so yourself (assuming it does displease you.)

Quote from: Silver on August 25, 2010, 01:21:48 AM
I just don't see why you seem to be trying to. You're an athiest, that's great, so am I but there's no need to go around saying "I don't believe in god." You probably don't like it when they go around telling everyone about their god so it would be hypocritical to do so yourself (assuming it does displease you.)

It's fine to say you don't believe in god since it's just an opinion. It's when you flat out say there is no god that you are being preachy.

Quote from: Kyle XD on August 25, 2010, 01:32:45 AM
It's fine to say you don't believe in god since it's just an opinion. It's when you flat out say there is no god that you are being preachy.

But you do have to agree that there is a long history of religious folks who want to proclaim "There is a God" without a thought that this statement might be equally offensive to militant atheists. So I think that this is rather a case of live and let live. Both sides of this have a nasty tendency to proclaim their beliefs as fact.

Thus to fairly censure Dee it would seem to me that you would first also have to censure many millennia of religious preachers who have proclaimed the opposite belief as fact. For example I know of very few evangelists who say "I believe there is a God". Similarly I have to say that I too find the concept of assumed universal sin, at least as defined, to be troubling. I don't actually believe that any of us has the right to assume that everyone else sins.

Meanwhile back on topic, the reason this Catholic position is so deeply disturbing has occurred to me and it is this. If the God they believe in really is so small and petty as they make out, then he would hardly be a worthy creator of infinity, rather he would have the appearance of a rather parochial and small minded individual, almost a twisted sadist indeed, who expects his creatures to live in ways which are contrary to their true natures and then, just to make things worse, provides them with a medical science capable of relieving their suffering, but forbids them to access it.

That does not sound like the Jesus of the gospels.

Indeed Jesus is consistently portrayed as the person who went into bat on the side of the underdog against this exact sort of religious legalism. I firmly believe he would have called the current Catholic church a bunch of pharisees for their legalistic beliefs, and the gospel, if written today would not say that he "Dined with publicans, and tax collectors" rather than he dined with "Transgenders and bankers" or some such modern equivalent. Who knows, I personally think we might easily have had a sex change as a modern miracle.

The small minded idea of God that they have would seem to me to be almost blasphemy in that rather than God creating man in his own image they seem to be engaged on the reverse, namely man creating God in their own image, and imbuing him with many of our least attractive characteristics. This I simply can not accept.

The God I believe in is simply bigger and more forgiving than that.

Exactly. It's like they create god in their own image. Thus they are their own god, and THEY say that they should die. And yes Jenny I do agree with what you said. The way I talk I try to talk in regards to the god this cretin is talking about and not as if god exists and thats it. I do believe god exists, but its a faith; I have no proof.
Plus suicide is also a sin to catholics so in regards to that faith shes sinning either way. He just finds a way to justify his hate.
I hope I'm making sense.

The argumentation is plain weird. God's greatest gift you you is life, and if you're stuck in an either die-or-transition alternative, then it's better to transition even if you think that transitioning is a sin.

Now people lets get over the god no god discussion. We've had it before and at best goes in circles and in worse  people get banned.

Discuss the pros and cons of the article please

Cindy

I used to debate (on another online) political forum group... a lot....but then lost the will to live...with the wasted energy of it..... so quit!

And it's just like Cindy says...

(Groundhog day)

So its simple you either buy into the faith/god of your choice.... and dump self-responsibility into obeying and pleasing the deity..... while living within (his) strict rules... and guidelines....

(Please note how many current gods are masculine)

Though it wasn't always that way.... the fertility ones of early peeps prove the point.... think....Venus of Willendorf

But I digress...

Or else like a fair few of us....you see it for the hogwash it is.... but with incense and grandiose outfits....high theatre it most certainly is...

*s->-bleeped-<-s*

But this is where being of a certain faith ain't funny.... this clip tells you a lot of what you need to know... about people with fundamental leanings...

Anti-muslim Rally at Ground Zero (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EwaNRWMN-F4&#)

According to the TV news tonight , this is the same organisation that did a deal with the British Government to get a Roman Catholic priest moved out of Northern Ireland forty years ago.  He was apparently the prime suspect in a bombing that killed a lot of people, Protestant and Catholic, including three children.  He was never even interviewed.

I no longer have any respect for that organisation due to statements like the original post.

I am closely monitoring this debate. It has potential  for great intellectual input.


BUT I was born and raised in Liverpool. If this becomes a prodydg & rcdog debate I will be harsh.

Before anyone replies, reply read the TOS. 

Cindy

Quote from: CindyJames on August 25, 2010, 06:17:10 AM
BUT I was born and raised in Liverpool. If this becomes a prodydg & rcdog debate I will be harsh.

prodydg? rcdog????

Now, back to our regularly scheduled article in question.....................................

Is it just me or does anyone else find a similarity in the theologies that seem to mirror each other between this person's (author) view as a supposed Christian, about "it is better to die than to offend God", and today's common actions by extremist, fundamentalist Muslims? I'm telling you, these people whoever they are, having this type of rhetoric to put out for common consumption are some of the most dangerous people any person on this planet face in today's world. Simply to suggest a death by your own hand rather than to take meaningful and positive resultant methods to correct a defect within one's own body, is simply barbaric! It's back to the stone age mentality! This person (again the author) is a flipping lunatic! But, even more disturbing are the mindless sheep minions that wrote praise to this person article as being full of "love" and "compassion". This has to be the most disturbing, opined piece of trash I've read in some time.



Dawn

Quote from: Leslie on August 24, 2010, 05:01:49 PM
Catholic Exchange to trans woman: "It is better to die than to offend God"
The Bilerico Project
Filed by: Austen Crowder
August 24, 2010 11:30 AM


http://www.bilerico.com/2010/08/catholic_exchange_to_trans_woman_-_better_to_die_t.php (http://www.bilerico.com/2010/08/catholic_exchange_to_trans_woman_-_better_to_die_t.php)





"Now I am going to say something that may seem harsh but remember I am talking to you about objective reality - where the rubber meets the road. It is better to die than to offend God. It would have been better for you to have given your life to stay in obedience to God,  than to break His law and to drag along into sin your poor spouse. At some point -- along with those who denied Christ under persecution and later felt remorse, you will have to say, "It would have been better for me to have died instead." That is hard, but really everyone of us should feel that way about every serious sin we have committed. We should prefer the death of our bodies to the death of our souls, shouldn't we?"

As a christian the biggest sin of all is to kill yourself, your spitting in the face of god, by that statement they are condoning it, that is not correct.  What people dont understand is if you read the bible their is nothing against being TS.  In fact more is there to support it.  People also assume god's image means your body, that is not true.  Gods image is a combination of body, spirit, and soul.   Body is the least important because it is left behind.  So, what sex is my soul?  no one can answer that.  Also bodies can be maimed and damaged all the time.  I doubt getting an earring makes it so you dont go to heaven, really thats altering your body too... The purity of the soul is what matters.

Also, god is forgiving, if you knew things would piss off god, would you really do them....? the fact is we dont know, and if we are truly sorry typically you will be forgiven.  The problem is that PEOPLE think they speak for god, and its people who are not forgiving or afraid, because they themselves are messed up and want to feel superior in some way to make themselves feel better.  A true christian is humble, not manipulates the word for their own self interest and beliefs.

Quote from: Izumi on August 25, 2010, 12:05:23 PM
What people dont understand is if you read the bible their is nothing against being TS.  In fact more is there to support it.  People also assume god's image means your body, that is not true.  Gods image is a combination of body, spirit, and soul.   Body is the least important because it is left behind.  So, what sex is my soul?  no one can answer that.  Also bodies can be maimed and damaged all the time.  I doubt getting an earring makes it so you dont go to heaven, really thats altering your body too... The purity of the soul is what matters.

Izumi,

Your interpretations are believable and realistic. However, I think the author tried to do her best to negate your argument by shooting across your bow with her opening paragraph from the first half of the article stating; "............1. Scripture could not interpret itself anymore than it could read itself and 2. that the task of authoritative (emphasis, mine) interpretation belonged to the Magisterium of the Catholic Church."

You see, they don't give a rats behind how practical or logically you read the Bible. All they really care about are the lies that they wish to continue in order to save their own fleeting asses and make them money in the process. In other words they need to keep control of the message in order to maintain their power! If you come along making sense, well......that just fouls up the game! They can't have that! Just ask Capernicus, Galileo, Joan of Arch et.al. Why, if you keep up with your line of thinking they may just have to re-institute the Holy Inquisitions!


Dawn   

I did not read the whole original text (part 1 + part 2), I must admit.

But it seems awkward to me that if a person is almost killing herself cause of GID, that a Catholic would say - then go ahead and kill yourself if you can't bear it, but don't transition. I don't say such a statement cannot com from a Catholic. Just that it is illogical and weird. But we cannot force other people to accept what we are - as long as they don't harrass us or treat us like sh*t, it's okay. Nor do they have the right to expect our approval of their convictions.

Let us keep in mind that this is a blog, a personal opinion or an opinion of the makers of this blog. It's not an official statement from the Roman Catholic Church. The author is a woman, so it's not even a Roman Catholic priest who wrote this, nor a bishop, cardinal or whoever with authority in the Roman Catholic Church (please don't kill me for this sentence, I'm not a sexist). I know that the official teaching of the Roman Catholic Church is also tense when it comes to transsexuality, but they wouldn't ever make such statements, as killing oneself is one of the biggest sins one can do according to Roman Catholic teachings (not the biggest sin though, blowing up other people or throwing a nuclear bomb on Mexico City out of fun is considered worse as far as I know).

Oh, and if you wonder why I always write Roman Catholic etc. instead of Catholic... there's a very cool split-up church called the Old Catholic Church, maybe they even get along with transsexuals, so I want my postings to be clear here.

Quote from: Dawn D. on August 25, 2010, 12:32:36 PM

Izumi,

Your interpretations are believable and realistic. However, I think the author tried to do her best to negate your argument by shooting across your bow with her opening paragraph from the first half of the article stating; "............1. Scripture could not interpret itself anymore than it could read itself and 2. that the task of authoritative (emphasis, mine) interpretation belonged to the Magisterium of the Catholic Church."

You see, they don't give a rats behind how practical or logically you read the Bible. All they really care about are the lies that they wish to continue in order to save their own fleeting asses and make them money in the process. In other words they need to keep control of the message in order to maintain their power! If you come along making sense, well......that just fouls up the game! They can't have that! Just ask Capernicus, Galileo, Joan of Arch et.al. Why, if you keep up with your line of thinking they may just have to re-institute the Holy Inquisitions!


Dawn

Heh, yeah i see what your saying, but that just supports my reasoning in the flaws of human beings.  Catholicism requires you to communicate with god via proxy the church, while a lot of other denominations do not and have one's relationship with god more a personal manner.  The unfortunate part is that someone has to make a consensus about what is written and how it should be interpreted, but we all know that interpretation changes over the ages.   The church now is nothing like the church 1000 years ago, meanings have changed to the written word, but how can that be? did god change his mind... no, it just shows the flaws of people out for their own power and greed, instead of staying humble and letting god judge if what you did was right or wrong.

Quote from: Izumi on August 25, 2010, 12:44:16 PM
Heh, yeah i see what your saying, but that just supports my reasoning in the flaws of human beings.  Catholicism requires you to communicate with god via proxy the church, while a lot of other denominations do not and have one's relationship with god more a personal manner.  The unfortunate part is that someone has to make a consensus about what is written and how it should be interpreted, but we all know that interpretation changes over the ages.   The church now is nothing like the church 1000 years ago, meanings have changed to the written word, but how can that be? did god change his mind... no, it just shows the flaws of people out for their own power and greed, instead of staying humble and letting god judge if what you did was right or wrong.

Just to get a few things clear: the Roman Catholic Church usually does not pretend that their interpretations are flawless and divine, they know that there can be human errors, but they go with what seems theologically most sensible for them at a given time. Plus they had a lot of power in the past, and you know how power can corrupt people. A Catholic teaching is only flawless and valable forever if it is said "ex cathedra", that's the infaillability of the Pope. This ex cathedra dogma only came up about 1875 or something like that and has only been used once (!!!) yet, about a subject which really doesn't matter in everyday life. (Ex cathedra, Maria was said to be born without the Original sin as Jesus as God's son couldn't be carried in the womb and be born by a person who would have the original sin like everybody else, which means you cannot connect easily to God. I mean, who cares about that, apart from theologists who have too much leisure time?)

Nevertheless, I don't say the Roman Catholic Church is okay or cool or whatsoever, it's a very unflexible, conservative organization indeed, but they are more careful about seeing their own opinions as God-given than most Evangelical etc. churches. However, yes, they have this conviction that you need the church, and preferably theirs, to help you get along with God and for communication with him etc.

Please do not mistake this blog for the official RCC teachings on transsexuality. The official teachings as far as I know are not much better (but I'm a protestant and never wrote them a letter to ask about it), but at least not that horrible.

Being the devils advocate here:

The RCC says this with the idea that the life we live is so short compared to the eternity we face after we die, and that it's better to suffer now then sin and spend eternity burning in Hell.

I'm not saying it's right, this is someone who believes in something, and their church pretty much slapped them in the face about it. But that's the reasoning that's going on here.

Quote from: Astarielle on August 25, 2010, 01:11:22 PM
Being the devils advocate here:

The RCC says this with the idea that the life we live is so short compared to the eternity we face after we die, and that it's better to suffer now then sin and spend eternity burning in Hell.

I'm not saying it's right, this is someone who believes in something, and their church pretty much slapped them in the face about it. But that's the reasoning that's going on here.

I see what you mean, and indeed, the RCC is very much driven to the after-life. However, if there is really a big risk of someone killing themselves, they won't say go for it and throw yourself in front of a train. As far as I know, according to RCC teachings you go to hell if you kill yourself unless you're insane or completely high on drugs when you are driven to do it ( = not really knowing what you're doing or about the consequences then). German Lutherans are somewhat more relaxed on this subject and say that yes, someone can be so depressed that they don't see any other solution or can't help killing themselves and that they're not necessarily in hell after that. By the way, German Lutherans tend to be more cool than US American ones, they bless gay/lesbian couples in some regions here etc.

This topic has been started in the religion forum and I replied there.

But I will like to say again, I try to be tolerant of people's beliefs but get angry to the bone with people who think they can make up new commandments.

There are only 10. Even Jesus didn't add any more.

To suggest this man would have been better off dead not only contradicts what Jesus taught us, it also contradicts the other claim that she has deprived her children of their father.

Quote from: Dee_pntx on August 25, 2010, 03:19:28 PM

Bzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzt...........

There are over 600 commandments.  613 I believe.

Do your homework..

My favorite is the one about making your roof so no one falls off it, or its a sin.  There are plenty of roofers going to hell i tells ya!

Let that be a lesson to all you contractors out there, god is watching, dont cut corners.

Quote from: Izumi on August 25, 2010, 04:15:42 PM
My favorite is the one about making your roof so no one falls off it, or its a sin.  There are plenty of roofers going to hell i tells ya!

Well it's one of my favourite quotes of the bible, and it actually makes sense to me. Be considerate, don't make things which put other people into danger -that seems to be sensible for me. Then again, I'm a technical translator and I translate a lot of stuff about machines which have to conform to certain security norms, and how to deal with them without putting the workers working on them into danger... so I'm kind of biased here. Plus I know what happens if the sh*t hits the fan here, a former neighbor of mine was at the burn unit for almost one year due to a plane catastrophe (Ramstein) with lots of operations, skin transplants etc. and we went to visit him often, or brought him home. (We had moved right before the catastrophe, and the burn unit was close to us but 200 km from his family so we invited both his family and him to our home.) 40 % of his skin was burned, usually you die at 30% but he survived. It's just not ethical or Christian to expose anyone to such risks, though that accident was not related to roofs in any way.

By the way, the quote does not say you will definitely go to hell if you don't secure your roof, just that it will spill blood over your home or something like this as you risk other creatures' lives by not making your home secure. And I can well imagine the Rabbis 2000 years ago walking along a town and warning people that they have to secure their roofs and that's really a GOOD thing. You don't want to see your kid, nephew or grandchild fall from such a roof and break their neck. Or your neighbours' kids, nephews or grandchildren. And lots of people are just too stupid to think about these risks, be they Jews or whatever people. This Jewish law was one of the beginnings of technical norms. I just love that, and it's one of my favorite bible quotes, though (or because?) it's very nerdy.


Think about what roofs were like in the mediterranean area then - often flat, one- or two-store roofs, like terraces. Ideal playground for children, and dangerous if you did not secure them. And add some mediterranean mentality to it - children running around and being allowed to play wherever they wanted, people are extrovert anyway and nobody minds about children running around, senile old persons walking around there as well etc. Flat, unsecured rufes were just DANGEROUS there.

Really, this is one of the 613 commandments of the Torah/Old Testament which make most sense to me, and I see this commandment as being the "grandfather" of modern technical/security norms. Or at least a very early version of it.