Susan's Place Transgender Resources

Jerica's personal post about two detransitioners makes me aask:  who among us living now full time as the opposite to our birth sex could face detransitioning?

I just cannot imagine any situation whereby I would voluntarily or involuntarily detransition.

Offer me £XXXXX per year work if I go back to work as male and I'd say 'Keep your money.'

Hold a gun to my head and say 'Make a bonfire of every bit of female stuff you own and put these male clothes on or I'll kill you' and I'd say 'Pull the trigger.'

So who could detransition and on what grounds?

I couldn't pass for a guy when I was supposed to be one nearly 40 years ago. A few years ago, while dressed in totally male work clothes and giving NO hints as to gender (or so I thought) I was still ma'amed by a total stranger so I don't think 'detransition' is even possible.

I'll kill myself before I detransition.

Totally, 100% serious.

From the moment I realized transition was an option, it's, for me, a one way street, I either make it or I die along the way, but there is no going back.

Quote from: Dee_pntx on August 26, 2010, 03:22:19 AM
I was full time back in 1991 when I met a woman and she asked me to marry her.
She had two small children that I accepted as my own without reserve.
I decided that it was more important that the kids have a father figure so I slowly detransitioned over about a three year time frame.

I lived as a man so I could be their dad.

My kids are now 23 and 25 and my daughter has two sons of her own.
I'm a grandmother now. :)

I love my kids with all my heart. They are everything to me.
Yeah, I lost like 16 years of transition time but I got two wonderful kids in exchange and two beautiful grandsons. I wouldn't trade them for anything!

After they grew up and moved out I began to live my life for ME.
I resumed transition and now I'm about to wrap it all up.
And I have the full and total love and support of my kids.

You can't buy that with any amount of money.

THAT was my reason for detransitioning. I think that was a worthwhile reason.

(Pardon my typos, I'm on my iPhone in bed.)

A truly heartwarming story Dee... I am genuinely full of admiration even if I may personally slightly diverge from you over father figures on the basis that Alison and I have fostered and thus I have effectively been the father figure whilst living as a woman. But I guess I'm just weird. ;)

The important point is that you did what you felt was the right thing in your circumstances and you had a good outcome. It is so important to follow our consciences, so even if I might have done things differently I do totally get why you made this noble sacrifice.

Personally I can not really imagine a reason why I would detransition. In nearly 30 years have not found anything that I could do as a man that I cannot do better as a woman and for me that includes being a father figure.  :laugh:

I can certainly see why someone would de-transition, it is a lot of hard work this transition malarky. I couldnt go back though, the only thing harder than transitioning was not transitioning

Over my dead body would I ever detransition.  However, thinking about being a male, thinking about what I once had, makes me feel sick to the core and I would rather die than become a man.

Kind regards
Sarah B

To detransition I'd need a lobotomy...

And nope will never volunteer for that.....

hmmmm....
Sure I will wear the clothes if you pay me well enough...but don't even think I am gonna go back to pretending to be and acting like that ->-bleeped-<- of a man I ussed to be.

Nope, I would never de-transition.

Still, as time goes by and memory of dysphoria fades, one could become as glib as some cis-gender people.
"Well, I don't know what the big deal is, I could live as the other gender."

Fortunately my memories are still strong.

Pay me lots of money!
Then sure I would wear whatever you want me to from bunny costume to a burlap sack speaking in whatever voice you want me to if you put enough zeros on the end of that sum I might be persuaded to sell you my hair and give you a big cheesy smile about it as you do.

However once the time period deal is concluded I would transition anyway. And then I'd prolly have enough money for FFS after such a deal.

Like Dee, I also detransitioned back 20 plus years ago, but mine was not so noble.  I did to have food on the table and a roof over my head.

I lost my job, was living on my own, could not find work.  In order to live with my folks for a while I had to be male.  I also got a job at this time, well actually bought a job.   I went to work for Aero Mayflower Transit Company.  Drove 18 wheeler for the next year,  married my love and tried my best to be that guy.

But as you can see I am back, this time for good.

No. I could never go back to being male. It was torture to begin with. It would be even worse the second time.

Give me 5 Million Euro and I'll detransition for a year. But only for a year.  >:-)

I can detransition to some degree or other for up to maybe a few hours. Assuming the Masonic charges against me at my Lodge make it far enough that we go to trial (in a few months, I'm estimating), I'll take out the earrings, wipe off the makeup, and put on a suit for the trial.

But the current draft of my remarks closes with:

QuoteRegardless of the terms by which my affiliation with the Lodge is severed, I will live my life without shame. I have been coming to terms with the fact that I am a transgender individual, assigned male, feminine-identified....

It's a bit of a technicality, as they all know way too much about my personal life from the details read off when the charges were pressed in the last business meeting. (Somebody had even gone to the Circuit Clerk's office to pull my petition for legal name change.)

But to meaningfully detransition? That would take a lot.

I know that for me, detransition would probably be a death sentence.  I think the only reason my dysphoria (before HRT) wasn't more severe is that I did not have a very masculine body in the first place.  The thought of being any more masculine makes me sick... the thought of going off of hormones and potentially becoming more masculine makes me sick.  Nope, couldn't do it.

My situation was a bit like Dee's only it was my own kids. I stopped transitioning when they were in high school so that it wouldn't be a burden that my sons had to carry with school friends, teachers etc. One of my sons' principle's called me one day to talk to me about my son having problems in school and when I answered the phone I was asked 'May I speak to <Insert birth name here> And I said "Speaking" He hung up on me. I cleared my throat and called him back, making sure I used a less masculine voice, "Why did you hang up on me?" He said "I thought you were a boy messing with me" Well, from that moment on I decided it was easier for my boys' if there weren't situations like that anymore. But, now they are both grown, out of the house and NOTHING can stop me now.


And oops. I apologize if posting here is a naughty...didn't realize which forum I was in =/

Quote from: Ashley4214 on August 26, 2010, 04:44:55 AM
I'll kill myself before I detransition.

Totally, 100% serious.

From the moment I realized transition was an option, it's, for me, a one way street, I either make it or I die along the way, but there is no going back.

This is exactly how I feel. It is much too painful to try to be him again.

even though its nice to read so many i will die first comments, i would be the same ofc i think the OP was asking of those thinking or detransitioning

anyone out there wanting to comment rather then turn  it into im not detransitioing thread, there are a zillion of those already ::)

No is the simple answer. I understand that some people might be able to find a balance for a variety of reasons that allows them to detransition, but not being dramatic I think that if i was forced to "for my own good" then it would kill me. Pandora's box is open and like the story it's impossible to put it back in a box now.

Wow, full spectrum of answers but for most part they are black or white. I have learned that in this life saying, I do this or, I wouldn't is as much as having a wonderful dream and hoping for such to become reality. Fluidity of circumstances in life it self make for much unforeseen outcomes, we, for most part feel in control but opposite is true. It would be with anguish, anger, and frustration if I was faced with such dilemma but for one I can not say it wouldn't happen. I didn't start transition until my forties which by any standard is really late, the reason was my family. Yes at times I felt like puling the trigger but didn't because of the same reason which kept me going as man, family. I can only speculate on how hard and painful it must be for someone to detransition against ones own will, I respect those individuals for their strength and devotion. I sure hope I will never have to face this dilemma.

While I've heard of a one or two post-ops who detransitioned, I wonder if it is more common for people to detransition who haven't gone very far in transition yet. Seems like there are a number of people who began transition, perhaps started hormones but didn't get far before turning back. Only to try again years later. Seems less common for people who developed a lot of permanency in their transition - physical characteristics, name, gender change, etc to detransition. Those things just make it harder to do so on a whim. Thoughts?

Since I'm not full-time with either gender I switch between boy and girl mode all the time, sometimes multiple times a day, as the situation warrants. 

Still a girl inside, even if I have to act the part of a boy.  But I'm early in my own transition anyway.  I don't think I could go full-time as either gender right now.  Could I pose/ act in boy mode for a long time in public? At this point probably.  Would I call it detransitioning? Not really -- more like transition-pause.  However, I agree if I was already fulltime it would probably be harder to go back to presenting as my birth gender all the time, and i probably still wouldn't at home, where I can be myself.

Cheers -
Rayalisse

Quote from: Ashley4214 on August 26, 2010, 04:44:55 AM
I'll kill myself before I detransition.

Totally, 100% serious.

From the moment I realized transition was an option, it's, for me, a one way street, I either make it or I die along the way, but there is no going back.

Same

Quote from: Nero on August 26, 2010, 04:14:34 PM
While I've heard of a one or two post-ops who detransitioned, I wonder if it is more common for people to detransition who haven't gone very far in transition yet.

Transition for me was not becoming someone I wasn't already, but becoming someone I was and the shedding of someone I wasn't. So to me detransition would be the same as saying go back to something you are not and never could be, i.e., living a lie. I think a lot of us feel that way and that is why there are so many "I would die first" replies. I am female inside and out, and for anyone with similar feelings about their gender the thought of detransition is horrifying.

I think Nero has a good point in that there would be more detransitioners who try it and simply discover it isn't who they are, or isn't worth the trouble, rather than those who have already completed transition, because for the latter group that would be transitioning all over again back the other direction as they obviously would feel they are now in the wrong body. Sheesh it gives me the heebie jeebies just to think about it :icon_yikes:

I have seriously considered it from time to time only because I want to have acceptance again. After a couple years of freedom from most of the anguish of living as a male, the hurts I feel come from external sources. Being rejected by my wife, lack of intimacy, social discrimination, fear of being attacked and that ever present question, "What do I tell them, this time, about my past?" all contribute to my considering going back to living as a male.

However, a few minutes of imagining my current body in mens clothes, having my hair cut in a male style and lowering my voice, which is not easy to do now, then I come back to my senses.  I remember just how insidious it was, minute by minute, not being able to live as who I really am. I remember the way my entire life was consumed by the lie I was living. Then my emotional pain from being ostracized comes into perspective again. I'm happier now and will stay true to myself.

Maggie

Addressing Nero's question, I think that transition is a long process, with many places to bail out.  I looked at it as a series of doors to pass through.  Each time I opened a door I wanted to open the next one.  But some people may find that isn't right for them.  Usually GRS is the last door.

I think that I may have been able to live a reasonable life without transitioning.  However, once I started – once I smelled the fresh air of freedom – I couldn't go back.  It would have been too hard.  I think it would be very hard to fit myself back into the constraints of pretending to be male.  For one thing, I'd slip up a lot more than I used to when that was all I knew.

All that said, even though I can't imagine a scenario where I would detransition life has a way of throwing you in situations you couldn't imagine.  Transition and detransition are intensely personal decisions, and I would not fault anyone for either.  Since we don't know all the factors that go into another's decision, we can only wish them well whatever they decide is right for them.

- Kate

Well, every day for the last 6 months or so I've had the most motivating circumstance possibly pressed upon me to detransition (albeit, i've not crossed any points of no return physically) - there is no offer or threat which can be made that is more compelling that that which is already here - and it hasn't been enough to change my mind, I'm thus forced to conclude no such circumstance exists.

Even after I knew that moving forward would be the end of my relationship with my wife, I could not stop.

Now slightly further down the track I am not even sure I would know how to live that guy again. At the thought of it I just feel this tension in my whole body, stomach clenching. Was it like this all the time as a guy? Maybe it was. God that is awful. Poor Nick, the ->-bleeped-<- he had to put up with.  :'(

If I tried now I am sure I would look like a girl pretending to be a boy. And then once my hormones changed back ahhhhhh, omg, horror.

It just seems impossible to me to go back. I burnt the bridge.

[quote author=SydneyTinker l
It's a bit of a technicality, as they all know way too much about my personal life from the details read off when the charges were pressed in the last business meeting. (Somebody had even gone to the Circuit Clerk's office to pull my petition for legal name change.)

[/quote]

Golly! Those Masons are an uptight bunch.  But can you weara nice frilly housewifely pinafore over the suit - to fit in with the Masonic aprons theme?

Quote from: Nero on August 26, 2010, 04:14:34 PM
While I've heard of a one or two post-ops who detransitioned, I wonder if it is more common for people to detransition who haven't gone very far in transition yet.

I've seen the figure of 90% quoted as being the people who make some effort to see if they are the opposite sex.  They go to a shrink or crossdress in private but can't do it in public and abandon all thought of being TS.
I've only seen a few post-ops who detransitioned and all rushed through transition and srs before getting used to lack of maleness and the 'time wasting frivolities' of female life such as shopping and having to makeup before going out the door.
I have read one surgeon say that he has had a few post-ops come back to him and say they have made a mistake and his answer is 'sorry, you asked for it to be chopped off and there is nothing that can be done to replace it.'
But then a couple of years ago there was a case in UK where one of these guys rushed through srs and then sued and got the NHS to give him a penis again at great cost.  Then last I heard he was saying he wanted to get married but maybe get a boyfriend.  so he wasn't totally stable.

In three words only, Never, Couldn't, Wouldn't........

Quote from: lilacwoman on August 27, 2010, 02:30:40 AM
I've seen the figure of 90% quoted as being the people who make some effort to see if they are the opposite sex.  They go to a shrink or crossdress in private but can't do it in public and abandon all thought of being TS.
I've only seen a few post-ops who detransitioned and all rushed through transition and srs before getting used to lack of maleness and the 'time wasting frivolities' of female life such as shopping and having to makeup before going out the door.
I have read one surgeon say that he has had a few post-ops come back to him and say they have made a mistake and his answer is 'sorry, you asked for it to be chopped off and there is nothing that can be done to replace it.'
But then a couple of years ago there was a case in UK where one of these guys rushed through srs and then sued and got the NHS to give him a penis again at great cost.  Then last I heard he was saying he wanted to get married but maybe get a boyfriend.  so he wasn't totally stable.

Much as people complain about the requirement for the period of Real Life Experience, I believe it is really for the benefit of the person transitioning.  It seems like all the stories of people who later regretted GRS are people who cut corners and gamed the system.

If you don't experience living in your target gender for a while before surgery, how are you going to manage to live that way for the rest of your life?  If you can't bring yourself to go out the door as your true gender, having your privates re-arranged isn't going to magically transform you.

*Kate sips her coffee and grumbles*

- Kate

[quote author=K8
If you don't experience living in your target gender for a while before surgery, how are you going to manage to live that way for the rest of your life?  If you can't bring yourself to go out the door as your true gender, having your privates re-arranged isn't going to magically transform you.
- Kate
[/quote]

Precisely! But in my town there is agitation to try get the RLE banned and for very faster srs but if the RLE and hormones stage hasn't been long enough to stop all male behaviour and sex then how can they know they will be happy without it?

Quote from: K8 on August 27, 2010, 08:08:43 AM
Much as people complain about the requirement for the period of Real Life Experience, I believe it is really for the benefit of the person transitioning.  It seems like all the stories of people who later regretted GRS are people who cut corners and gamed the system.

If you don't experience living in your target gender for a while before surgery, how are you going to manage to live that way for the rest of your life?  If you can't bring yourself to go out the door as your true gender, having your privates re-arranged isn't going to magically transform you.

*Kate sips her coffee and grumbles*

- Kate

The only thing is K8 - some of us effectively live our RLE BEFORE we seek medical help and such is the climate of mistrust that we then risk getting lumped in with those who are trying to buck the system when we want to move forward more rapidly based on a childhood spent more or less in target gender.

I know it was a long time ago when I went through it all, but I still encounter people to whom this has happened. So with greatest respect to both you and Lilac - and without wishing to derail this thread I do think the key to success is flexibility.

Of those who have detransitioned that I have seen it is often caused by inflexibilty either on the part of the transitioner or those around them. So my take on detransition is that the more rules you put in place to try to protect people from themselves the more you risk treating a set of rules and not an individual human being in all the complexity of their circumstances.

Quote from: SydneyTinker on August 26, 2010, 12:36:54 PM
I can detransition to some degree or other for up to maybe a few hours. Assuming the Masonic charges against me at my Lodge make it far enough that we go to trial (in a few months, I'm estimating), I'll take out the earrings, wipe off the makeup, and put on a suit for the trial.

Sydney, what kind of an organization is this that is putting you "on trial"? Is it men only? If you are living f/t and have changed your name, why would you want to present yourself as male?

I'm not passing judgment on you, but I am curious.

Heck, I'm a rabble rouser. I'd go in there wearing a short skirt and heels!

I went back, partly because of fear, partly because I just couldn't find the resources or support.

I posted a picture of me when I was living properly, from many years ago. I recalled, before finding that picture, many of the things I felt then. But seeing it has brought so much more back.

I remember that, inside, I felt a peace, with myself and the world. I could relate to the world as me rather than continually having to figure out how to behave.

There was a warmth in my stomach, whereas now I have this exposure in my middle. I don't know if that makes sense. I'm so conscious of the ugly bits. They are the dirty. They are the reason I couldn't play with my friends and had to be tough. They hurt, they smell, they look terrible and I couldn't give any male companions the pleasure that I wanted to.

I've just finished a short job, filling in for someone who was away. I work in building. Today, since I wasn't going to be back on Tuesday, many of the men were wishing me well, as they do. But several asked if I was gay. I hadn't realised but I've been relating to people in a much warmer, more open manner. The job is in a maternity hospital, a refurb on one of the floors. We've seen a few of the babies of course. I suppose that put a big smile on my face.

I am determined not to give into regret. Regret is for suckers. We need to deal with disappointments and loss by learning. That is what being human is.

If I have a vicarious interest in any others here it is in rejennyrated and Jerica. Jenny has achieved so much and while I'm sure she will be the first to say she had many advantages, not least brilliant parents, I doubt it has come without struggle. Jerica is such a charming and beautiful person who is facing her challanges with  more strength than I had. I look at the contentment in her pretty face and know how she feels.

The last week has renewed my faith in myself. Sorry if this post doesn't have anything constructive.

I could never do it. The only reason I transitioned in the first place was because I was becoming suicidal as a male. There have been a few times where it looked like circumstances might get in the way of my ability to continue transitioning and every time I immediately started thinking of ways to die.

I've been thinking about this question since it was posted.
I didn't want to answer without thinking it through.

I could say no, just no, and leave it that, but there's a theoretical possibility I might be convinced otherwise, if my loved one's lives depended on it.
I know I keep telling people not to sacrifice themselves for other people and yet do it myself.
Done it for almost my whole life.
This is the first thing I can honestly say I'm doing because "I" need to, and it's a little bit out of character for me and so I can reasonably state that there's a chance I might slip into old habits and put myself on hold for sake of others, if my buttons were pushed enough.

It's partially for this reason that I've avoided one of my sisters, as I think that if the topic came up with her that she'd start asking me about what this'll mean for my daughter. As in,.. what if she gets bullied cause her mom's a homo.. or whatever.
meh..

just made myself a little depressed with that.

I'm not bucking against RLE, I don't have any issue doing it (although, like Jenny, it will piss me off if I go to a therapist 2 years after i went full time and I'm told "the clock starts now") but here's where i have a problem with it, intellectually:

what we are asked to do is live full time as a woman. but that's not what we ACTUALLY do. what we ACTUALLY do, unless we can relocate and pass well enough to go stealth, is live full time as a (in the eyes of too many and under the rules of society) a freak.

for instance, no GG ever has to face any worry about which restroom she uses; she never has to be fired for cross-gender appearance; no GG has to risk assault for the same; no GG has to face the rejection of many loved ones because she's a woman, no GG ever has to go through things like electrolysis and HRT to verify her womanhood.

all of this second-class citizenship and more is part and parcel of the RLE.

Yes, GG's face gender based discrimination, but I'm speaking of another layer on top of that. Chronic unemployment, difficulty getting proper health care....a hundred subtle ways that what we experience during the RLE is NOT in fact the life of the average woman.

I think that the trans community would have a lot less problem with the RLE if it didn't cost us our jobs and the respect of our friends and all the rest.

that said -

all those factors make spending a year in the target gender that much more necessary, because a huge part of what we must "see if we can handle" is exactly that aforementioned set of drama.

A potential transitioner needs to see if they can face the loss of a spouse or a parent or a job.....and still want it bad enough to move forward.

But it's an inaccuracy to call it "living life as any other woman" because it's considerably more than that.


As far as "gatekeepers" - I have a lot more problem with gatekeepers between us and HRT than I do between us and surgery. Provided that the latter gatekeepers are simply checking for other potential psychosis which might lead to a bad outcome and not trying to see if we are "real transgenders"

QuoteI know I keep telling people not to sacrifice themselves for other people and yet do it myself.
Done it for almost my whole life.
This is the first thing I can honestly say I'm doing because "I" need to, and it's a little bit out of character for me

I can say exactly the same thing.

which is why it is such torture when she pulls out ALL the stops to beg, bully, or buffalo me into giving it up. I'm frankly amazed I've made it this far.

But the fact that i have is what convinces me I will never go back - i've had all tyhe possible reasons to already thrown at me and i'm still here.

I couldn't do it. I wouldn't want to do it either. I doubt I would pass as male anymore either since I get maamed with no make up on and wearing my motorbike crash helmet.
Actually the thought of de-transitioning is horrendous and no amount of money would ever persuade me.
I'm happy as I am thank you.

Quote from: rejennyrated on August 27, 2010, 10:47:10 AM
Of those who have detransitioned that I have seen it is often caused by inflexibilty either on the part of the transitioner or those around them. So my take on detransition is that the more rules you put in place to try to protect people from themselves the more you risk treating a set of rules and not an individual human being in all the complexity of their circumstances.

Exactly my feeling. I've studied a lot of research on these matters and work actively to improve transgender threatment in Denmark.

A Swedish study revealed that app. 91% of the people applying for surgery are granted a permit, with a total of 3.8% seeking sex reversal at a later time. Thus even in a very liberal country the huge majority is happy with their transition. A study from the Netherlands revealed that 69% of the applicants vere referred for HRT and 58% of the total applicants completed surgery with only 0.9% regretting it later. Most studies show figures of regret between 1-1.5% in MF and about 1% in FM's.

In contrast to this the Danes are so strict that only 8-11% of the applicants have received surgery permits during recent years with probably only half the people  useing them. While Standards of Care clearly states that GRS needs to be recommended by a specialist when appropriate the Danish Clinic of Sexology expressly states that they can never recommend gender change, but only write a statement declaring whether anything contradicts it. Thus they are clearly not open in their two year evaluation. They also specifically state they are doing an observation phase, not counselling! The applicant is thus clearly in opposition to the clinic treating them from the start. Even getting a name change turns out to require about nine months of observation at the clinic although they are able to allow it right away under current law if they wanted to.

Now alot of communication studies show that strict observation will make the applicants exhibit a presentation focus where they are very keen on not saying or doing anything wrong, which obviously hinders dialogue and reflections. When I contacted the clinic for help I actually wanted to discuss my feelings about being transgender, how to handle them and which worries I had about the transition I had begun, but it was soon evident that if I wanted to get anywhere the only way I could do it was by telling the story of being a girl since the get go and hidding any and every doubts. To get anywhere you have to plead for HRT from the start and to be allowed to get them you have to tell that you want GRS in the end. No middle way. This is especially stupid since hormones themselves are readily available in Denmark. So they should know that people, who are not on HRT already when they seek the clinic go to them for other reasons than the HRT itself...

Now that I've finally started HRT - which the clinic only allow after 12 months and a 4 months waiting list at the gyneocologic department - I am very, very pleased by them, but still I feel sorry that I never had the possibility to discuss what I was about to start and the lack of readiness that resulted in. Now I'm according to the timetable ready to apply for GRS, but still there was never a place to talk 100% openly about i.e. the feelings of not speaking with my mother for more than two months. I know many people - and I will do so too - who apply for the permits and only feel able to speak openly after they get it. This may of course be part of the reason why only 40-60% of the persons receiving the permit here end up using it. I just can't help thinking this is so completely backwards and that those first two years are really pointless. Why not take a more collaborative and open approach to the whole thing from the beginning. (And yes, I went full time a year before I contacted the clinic too...)

Now just beginning my fourth year as a woman I feel it is so long since I lived as male that I simply can't immagine how it would be and I have sometimes wondered if it really was that bad or if I should make one last attempt at it, but I feel kind-of locked-in now because of this silly system, which never allowed any experimentation. Hell I'll probably not even be able to change my name again without another year of observation and where am I then, when I - like the others who had a periodic pause - find myself wanting to complete my transition later? It's just not possible in Denmark unless you have the money to pay everything yourself.

Of course I have been through an amazing personal development during this period and I feel so much more free and social now. My colleagues and class mates accept me etc. I would never want to go back to being the person I used to be, yet I can't help wonder if I'd be able to transfer this development back into my birth sex like they asked in a reality program once: "What as a man have you learned from being a woman?" I can't let go of that line.
There is, I thing two main reasons behind this. One is of course that my mother makes it very clear to me that I am a problem to her for being transgendered and the other is that although I think I have come a long way I still can't help - in some way - feeling that being cis-gendered would be better or more acceptable than being transgendered.

Worst of all studies show that the two most common reasons for regret are bad surgical outcomes and rejection or other issues with family and friends. For this reason the Danish approach may actually well be responsible for high regretfullness due to lack of surgical experience in the country and lack of possibility of working on family issues and other problems which might arise.


Tippe

Quote from: rejennyrated on August 27, 2010, 10:47:10 AM

Of those who have detransitioned that I have seen it is often caused by inflexibilty either on the part of the transitioner or those around them. So my take on detransition is that the more rules you put in place to try to protect people from themselves the more you risk treating a set of rules and not an individual human being in all the complexity of their circumstances.

I've done some thinking since my last, rather selfconscious post in this thread.

My problem was I had not really managed to mature enough, emotionally, to exist without my family. The years I spent wishing and planning, I had not really considered that or many other difficulities. The brief time I spent, I clung to tight too people.

When those ended, all I had left was my family.

You hear stories of people, wives, children, choosing to return to those who are abusing them. It's difficult for some to understand. Bullying relatives destroy you, they destroy your self confidence, your self esteem, your sense of worth. All that is left are the breif periods of approval they may give. The expectation of those brief approvals, even just a small smile, that expectation itself is a reward.

People generally, all of us, we tend to accept others as they are. We each create our own realities. The reactions we get from others is that which we seek. But frequently, what we seek is what we have learnt to accept rather than what we each need. Those with gentile personalities, for example, tend to receive a response that rewards that. We all enjoy meeting gentle people, they are non threatening, they make us feel safe. So they get a feedback from their own presentation which encourages them to continue.

Each of us experiences some negativity in our dealings with others, those moments when we feel dissatisfied, hurt. Most of us, perhaps all of us, might conclude that that person is difficult, or we don't like them. In reality, the rough edges in our personalities have grinded with the roght edges in theirs. we created that feedback. That explains why others might not complain of the same negative reactions from that same person.

If someone presents as being inadequate, worthless and someone to push around, we do it to them. We rationalise this to ourselves by saying they don't mind, or we are just kidding.

But people who are destroyed inside accept that because they lack the emotional skills to say they don't.

In my case, and I know this happened and happens to may young people, almost every aspect of my behaviour was highlighed and held up as an example of why I was so evil. Many things were dismissed as attention seeking behaviour, for example.

Even as an adult. I recall once I was working in a admissions ward while I was a nurse. A psychiatrist, who I hadn't realised was there, told me something I'd done was inappropriate attention seeking behaviour.

What is wrong with seeking attention? And in the case of that psychiatrist, his remark was more attention seeking than mine.

I went through dozens of reasons why my wish to be female was wrong and evil. I was seeking to emulate my mother, disgusting. I was lying to others, evil. I was being a wimp, coward and so on.

So, I went back.

All I really know for certain is that that was a mistake. I went back but the clock didn't. I don't know what else I could have done at that time. i don't know how it would have turned out even. All I can do is try to turn that into a lesson.

Trying to find a reason that would cause me to detransition, I can only think about my children, and even then, what use would a depressed and most probably suicidal 'father' be to them?
For myself, I'm pretty sure I would rather be dead than having to pretend I'm a man again. I've only been living full-time for 3 weeks, but I find myself singing and whistling in the morning (and at other times of the day as well :-) ), rather different from what it used to be before.

Detransition ?I have to laugh at this.Go back to being that nerdy and loudmouthed jerk that I was? No way,not even if a loved ones life depended on it.Im a much kinder and understanding person as Angela.As John I was the total opposite.

Wow, I cannot believe I didn't see this thread earlier, especially with so many replies.

I personally detransitioned and know many others who have too.  The HBSOC (Harry Benjamin Standards of Care) which was the primary method of gatekeeping back when I transitioned in the late 90's, was and still acts as a godsend.  Without it I might very well have made a major mistake.

I lived full time, had a job, dated, and was going to school and I was very happy with my female role.  However, I couldn't get past the nagging doubts that all this was in my head.  Regardless of the fact that my brain was telling me "I'm a girl, I'm a girl, this is right, being male was wrong" I felt like my brain, like with so many other conditions of the mind, could have been lying to me.  I also hated the lying and deceit that went with transition to maintain stealth - modifying the experiences of my past constantly, never feeling like I could honest or real with anyone.  I thought "damn I went to all this trouble to 'be myself' and I cannot even be honest now!  I'm still a in a box!"

Well I got sick of the box and the lies and starting 'coming out' that I was transgendered.  For some reason, having people know of my past made me feel more at ease - a lot more at ease but it caused problems of its own.  Dating prospects were more difficult obviously and some of the people I knew who were cool with the female me, couldn't handle that the person they thought was always female wasn't.

The final thing that kicked me into going back, to detransitioning was seeing all of the incredibly disappointed and unhappy people who were transitioned.  Im not talk about on the forums, but in real life.  After all they did, they still regretted, still bemoaning things they were missing in their lives and those sadnesses were consuming them.  Those who didn't pass at all were even more depressed and I had to deal with a number of other TG people I knew committing suicide.  I started to think "there has to be another way!  Not everyone can have a successful transition, and those who do seem to have the potential for intense lingering sadness".

So I decided, even though I might be one of the lucky ones who transitioned at 19, could pass easily and quickly, I realized I wanted to see if I could make it as a guy again, so long as I was "out", didn't live in the box of being male, and tried cognitive behavioral therapy techniques to control the triggers that provoked my GID.  After all, if it didn't work, I could always go back right?

***

Let me mention about something Kate said.  Kate said that the RLE, as annoying as it is to many transpeople, is very important for weeding out those who could otherwise live without transition.  I echo that so strongly it moves me to tears.  The detransition group I am a part of has VERY strict confidentiality rules - for one to protect their identities, and two to protect them from members of the trans community who don't want to hear about them, but I will tell you this.

Nearly every post op I've met who detransitioned only got into the mess they did because they DIDN'T follow the the proper order set out by the SOC or WPATH.  Sure, roll your damned eyes at me you doubters and naysayers and "I should be able to whatever I want"ers, but I'm serious - gravely serious.  These people were the same way, they were convinced they would DIE without transition, they never thought for a moment they'd regret any part of it, afterall, their whole lives they wanted it.  They listened to people who said the RLE was dumb and gatekeepers were annoying, and justified hurrying the process.  They also cite pressure from other TS's to transition, transition, transition - which all of us can attest exists from our community even if it isn't direct, it is always indirectly there.  Finally they cite they never knew there was another way to do it to live with GID without transition.  These people are generally very sad pandas.  In their shoes I probably would have remained transitioned, but I cannot be sure, but they exist, and they deal with challenges many of us couldn't dream of.

In fine I'd like to say that even if you have no doubts when you begin transition, don't believe for a moment you'll never change, don't cut corners on the SOC, don't think you are better or more "trans" than others.  These attitudes can blind you to the reality of the possibility that you *might change your mind as remote or impossible as that may be, and then it will be you I get to read about - you who wished things were different, that you had stopped earlier, that wished you had taken more precautions.

I hope you can see why I don't really like seeing gender-questioning individuals being pushed into transition's path.  The truth is MOST MOST MOST of the people I know who have regretted it and are post op... wait for it... transitioned YOUNG (before 30).  In the end, people change, and they change A LOT in their 20s.  Take that as a warning you whipper snappers. ;)

Interalia,

I assume then that cognitive behavioral therapy works as a mechanism to stop the need to transition? If so, why isn't this being the preferred way to treat trans people? I think that had I been told that there was another way when I talked to the four therapists I went to, that I might not have taken the path I did. Is cognitive behavioral therapy similar to reparative therapy? Is is religious based? 

Maggie

Quote from: MaggieB on August 29, 2010, 12:36:36 PM
Interalia,

I assume then that cognitive behavioral therapy works as a mechanism to stop the need to transition? If so, why isn't this being the preferred way to treat trans people? I think that had I been told that there was another way when I talked to the four therapists I went to, that I might not have taken the path I did. Is cognitive behavioral therapy similar to reparative therapy? Is is religious based? 

Maggie

I assume then that cognitive behavioral therapy works as a mechanism to stop the need to transition?
The techniques help block the stimuli that provoke my dysphoria, the pain that motivates me to transition.

If so, why isn't this being the preferred way to treat trans people?
Number one, because I developed the CBT techniques myself therefore they have not yet undergone the rigors of psychological testing, and number two, because controlling triggers does not cure GID. 

Is cognitive behavioral therapy similar to reparative therapy? Is is religious based? 
Some reparative therapy masquerades itself as CBT, but it is not.  What I do is not religious in any way - I do not believe reparative therapy works.

Interalia,
So I understand what you are saying,  by using CBT, you have the ability to be content and functional as a male even though you still have a female internal identity. In essence, you are able to live in the male role and in the male world. Do you relate to other men like in men's clubs or just hanging out with them? Can you understand male bonding and interactions? Do they relate to you as male too?

Maggie

I don't know how anybody could possible detransition after fully transition then going back and ending up a guy again with a vagina, we all heard the case of Samantha Kane http://ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/conway/TS/Warning.html#Samantha (http://ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/conway/TS/Warning.html#Samantha) which I found very weird, anyway everybody is different, I could never detransition, Id never want to, go back to being a very unhappy guy, no thanks, Im now a very happily married attractive woman, I love being a girl, a woman, a female, I never never want to be a guy, happy the way I am now.
p

Quote from: MaggieB on August 29, 2010, 01:20:59 PM
Interalia,
So I understand what you are saying,  by using CBT, you have the ability to be content and functional as a male even though you still have a female internal identity. In essence, you are able to live in the male role and in the male world. Do you relate to other men like in men's clubs or just hanging out with them? Can you understand male bonding and interactions? Do they relate to you as male too?

Maggie

You could say that its not that I'm suddenly a better male, I can better handle the dissonance as often that is provoked because I'm not female.  I am a good chameleon and blend into my social environments, but around my personal friends I can be myself - myself = far too feminine than is healthy for any male.  I tend to still follow a female role in most ways even when chameleoning and people think I'm a little off, but I'm generally inoffensive. ;)  I would never go to a men's club, but I can hang out with them - they accept me as "the woman" there - if they only knew. ;)

Quote from: interalia on August 29, 2010, 01:28:06 PM
You could say that its not that I'm suddenly a better male, I can better handle the dissonance as often that is provoked because I'm not female.  I am a good chameleon and blend into my social environments, but around my personal friends I can be myself - myself = far too feminine than is healthy for any male.  I tend to still follow a female role in most ways even when chameleoning and people think I'm a little off, but I'm generally inoffensive. ;)  I would never go to a men's club, but I can hang out with them - they accept me as "the woman" there - if they only knew. ;)

Isn't being a chameleon not being true to yourself? You seem to be bending to the society rather than being who you are. How can that be comfortable? Is that where CBT comes in? It dulls the pain of having to live like that?

Maggie

Quote from: MaggieB on August 29, 2010, 01:32:22 PM
Isn't being a chameleon not being true to yourself? You seem to be bending to the society rather than being who you are. How can that be comfortable? Is that where CBT comes in? It dulls the pain of having to live like that?

Maggie

No, being a chameleon is not fully being myself- it is one of the pressures that caused me to transition and one of the pressured that led me to detransition too.  One of my CBT techniques has been to be out with nearly everywhere - so that I wouldn't feel the need to revert to being something I'm not.  As such in most cases, work, home, and out, I can be myself - but there are still uncomfortable social situations where I hide myself behind a mask in order to protect myself.  That used to tear my apart, those little episodes of self preservation, but I can better deal with them now.  I compare it to having to hold your breath underwater.  You can teach yourself to do it for so long, but eventually you have to come up for air.

Quite a few people have posted almost exactly how I feel: Transition for me is a one-way street. I starting transitioning knowing that there was no going back. And if I feel later that I've made a mistake, well, I'll deal with it, and live with my mistake.

But then, I'm 36, and quite mature mentally and emotionally. I've considered carefully my life and my future for a period of years. I'm not a person who blindly jumps into things, or makes decisions based on emotions alone. I'm extremely rational, and try and strike a balance between my emotional and intellectual self.

So when I made my decision, I went slowly. I started on low doses of hormones, gradually increasing them. About a year after that, I slowly (very slowly) started coming out to close friends and family. I took my time to adjust to everything... paying close attention to my emotional, physical, and intellectual self, and how I was dealing with it all.

With me, every step I take just cements my decision to transition a little bit more. If I had any doubts, I wouldn't be doing this. Period.

The standards of care are there for a very good reason. Not all of us are so confident, and many of us are confused and need to sort things out. The SOC is there to prevent people from making a mistake. Counseling is given in an attempt to help people work through their issues before making a serious (possibly irreversible) decision they'll later regret.

I do have one good friend who is fully transitioned and has had FFS and SRS, the works. She's a very beautiful woman... but quite unhappy with her transition. She feels as if part of her decision to transition was her thinking that transition was the solution to all of her problems, providing some sort of escape from them. She has been considering de-transitioning, but she also has chronic, severe, untreated depression, and is often emotionally scattered.

She did jump through all the SOC hoops, however she lied a bit and embellished her past in order to gain the permission letters needed for her to transition. Now, realizing what she did, and how her life isn't what she thought it would be, she's regretting it.

The plain truth is that transition will not make all problems go away, only transition-related problems. Also, if one has issues with chronic depression, it will probably return eventually, unless dealt with professionally through medication/counseling. I received treatment for my severe depression before making any sort of decision on transition, and I'm glad that's the way it worked out. It's probably best to handle the depression BEFORE making any important decisions, such as transitioning, because of the profoundly twisted effect that depression has on thought processes. Those of you who suffer from severe depression (as I do) can sympathize with this, I'm sure.

I suppose my point is that transition isn't an escape, and unchecked personal problems will follow the transitioner. And, if there's any doubt about transition, it shouldn't be done. Simple as.

Vee

I was interested in the idea of de transitioning only to please others and to get along in society without the blatant discrimination that I face now. Some of it is because of being female not trans. Some of it is because my wife and I are perceived as being lesbians when only I am. She has adapted to my transition but we are not romantically linked anymore. That is very lonely for both of us. SO when I read that CBT could make it possible that I could go back and tolerate being male again, I was very interested. I see now that it is another coping mechanism but it doesn't cure the condition. I will always be female brained and act like one. If I could pretend to be male and use CBT to make that tolerable, I think I might flip out one day. That could be disaster for me. Thank you for telling me about what your experience with CBT is and I wish you all the best in your life. You must be much stronger willed than I am.

Maggie

Quote from: MaggieB on August 29, 2010, 02:13:03 PM
I was interested in the idea of de transitioning only to please others and to get along in society without the blatant discrimination that I face now. Some of it is because of being female not trans. Some of it is because my wife and I are perceived as being lesbians when only I am. She has adapted to my transition but we are not romantically linked anymore. That is very lonely for both of us. SO when I read that CBT could make it possible that I could go back and tolerate being male again, I was very interested. I see now that it is another coping mechanism but it doesn't cure the condition. I will always be female brained and act like one. If I could pretend to be male and use CBT to make that tolerable, I think I might flip out one day. That could be disaster for me. Thank you for telling me about what your experience with CBT is and I wish you all the best in your life. You must be much stronger willed than I am.

Maggie

Living without transition, like transition, is not for everyone.  I think that one day, such techniques as many of us are pioneering can be perfected to help others who choose not to undergo the rigors of transition yet survive with GID.  Perhaps even a non-transition focused cure will be discovered one day - but who knows.  I appreciate the questions you asked.  I'm not out to convert anyone to my way to coping, but I do wish for others to know there are people who live without transition.

My problem with this is that whilst I do understand and respect Interalia's experience, the fact remains that mine was somewhat different. I was a young transitioner. I was also one of those who has not regretted it, and honestly believes that if I had been forced to delay any longer without surgery I simply would NOT now be alive.

Given my experience I do wonder how many people like me are not so lucky as I was and simply dont find the one doctor who will bend the rules for them, and as a result wind up on a slab.

Do you see why I have problems coming to terms with the opinions of those of you who seem to want rigidly enforced rules? Because if such rules had been enforced on me I genuinely do not believe I would be alive now, and so it is very difficult for me not to feel as if those who would argue for such a rigid system, were effectively calling for my death!

Now please also understand I am absolutely NOT taking this personally, or indeed holding any grudges, but I do want to convey to people the need for a doctor to be free to treat the individual before them who may not be the same as the last patient, indeed may well be different from the next one.

Please let us have guidelines by all means - but never rules. The doctor MUST be free to exercise their professional judgement and to act in their patients best interest.

Almost 30 years on, and with not one moment of regret, I am living proof that mine did so when he bent the rules for me. I may be the exception, but surely it is still not right, if by enforcing rules, however well intentioned, you cause the needless death of one single patient.

What Interalia has brought up gives me great pause. We hear the people who think transsexuals are mentally ill and only in need of the right therapy to make them stop the gender variant behavior. The religious right chants this all the time at every opportunity yet so far only their variation of reparative therapy is what they offer. They use it as a reason to deny trans people ENDA and advocate shunning us until we repent and seek such care.

The idea that CBT could be the silver bullet that would enable us to act according to their social construct seems most worrisome. It seems to work for Interalia and no doubt if it was promoted by the RR, we could be faced with  having to say why we won't try it or having our rights further denied because there is a "Cure" at least one that would allow us to suffer in silence.

I researched CBT and LBGT on Google and found that it is being used but so far not to convert the patient back to "Normal"  but rather to cope with the effects of being LBGT in a society that hates us. I couldn't find anything that indicated it is used to make LBGT people less offensive to the general population.

Since the subject of this is de transition, using CBT to detransition is slightly different and I would like to know how successful Interalia thinks it is. That is to say, how much better is your life living as male with CBT vs living as female? you say you aren't advocating it but you alluded to a number of transfolk who were actively detransitioning. Are they also using CBT?

Just noticed this topic.

After a year plus RLE, I re-transitioned, however I didn't ever return to being male. I realized that I'm more comfortable as neither gender, although this does have its challenges in daily life. My gender disconnect still exists, but I've made what were necessary choices for my circumstances. It had nothing to do with family, it was more because of inability to continue working in my chosen profession and also lack of health insurance, among other reasons.

Z 

all this makes me wonder...how much thought is given to the idea that a transgender person has depression alongside GID instead of because they have GID.

and that said depression doesn't necessarily evaporate in the face of transition?

Not saying this is always the case or even mostly, just that it's a reasonable possibility in SOME cases.

Quote from: rejennyrated on August 29, 2010, 03:00:09 PM
My problem with this is that whilst I do understand and respect Interalia's experience, the fact remains that mine was somewhat different. I was a young transitioner. I was also one of those who has not regretted it, and honestly believes that if I had been forced to delay any longer without surgery I simply would NOT now be alive.

Given my experience I do wonder how many people like me are not so lucky as I was and simply dont find the one doctor who will bend the rules for them, and as a result wind up on a slab.

Do you see why I have problems coming to terms with the opinions of those of you who seem to want rigidly enforced rules? Because if such rules had been enforced on me I genuinely do not believe I would be alive now, and so it is very difficult for me not to feel as if those who would argue for such a rigid system, were effectively calling for my death!

Now please also understand I am absolutely NOT taking this personally, or indeed holding any grudges, but I do want to convey to people the need for a doctor to be free to treat the individual before them who may not be the same as the last patient, indeed may well be different from the next one.

Please let us have guidelines by all means - but never rules. The doctor MUST be free to exercise their professional judgement and to act in their patients best interest.

Almost 30 years on, and with not one moment of regret, I am living proof that mine did so when he bent the rules for me. I may be the exception, but surely it is still not right, if by enforcing rules, however well intentioned, you cause the needless death of one single patient.

The same idea of "one single death" could be reversed to say that one single death should not be allowed by not enforcing the rules.  Fortunately I do not feel that way.

I don't wish to make the SOC or WPATH required law.  I want people to be able to make their own choices and deal with the consequences of those.  However, there needs to be more information given so people can really make informed decisions.  Too often the "regret" of those who detransition is not seen or heard from the community at large.  That isn't because it doesn't exist, but because it is often subjugated, derided, and cast out.  We do our community a disservice by silencing, intimidating, or diminishing the validity of the experiences of those who regret transition, de-transition, or choose not to transition.  We need to hear from these brothers and sisters - they too need support, and their stories should serve as a sobering reminder of how important it is to be real with yourself and the professionals who are trying to help you.

I tried many things over the years to keep from transitioning.  CBT was but one of many.  Some of the things it did were not the nice things ether.

Back when I tried to transition, 20 plus years, my then therapist used the SOC as gospel.  She would not give an reference for HRT for 6 months, she also stated that I had to begin RLE immediately.  I was forced to do things I was not mentally ready for.  As a result I went back into the closet and made a mess off my life.

I was always angry and I hated life.  Even with a good woman beside me, I hate life.  When I could take it no more , I tried to take that last big step and almost succeeded in taking my own life.

I now look forward to a brighter future.  There is no hard and fast rules for this thing called GID.  There is a set of guidelines called the Standard Of Care.  They are there for a reason.  Shortcutting them will do more harm than good.  And this has been proven over and over again.  But by demanding that the SOC be used as the rulebook is also just as bad.

If one is happy with plodding along and continue to fight, let them.  But if they must transition then use the SOC as a guideline.  Some will go faster and some will go slower.

Quote from: MaggieB on August 29, 2010, 03:47:20 PM
What Interalia has brought up gives me great pause. We hear the people who think transsexuals are mentally ill and only in need of the right therapy to make them stop the gender variant behavior. The religious right chants this all the time at every opportunity yet so far only their variation of reparative therapy is what they offer. They use it as a reason to deny trans people ENDA and advocate shunning us until we repent and seek such care.

The idea that CBT could be the silver bullet that would enable us to act according to their social construct seems most worrisome. It seems to work for Interalia and no doubt if it was promoted by the RR, we could be faced with  having to say why we won't try it or having our rights further denied because there is a "Cure" at least one that would allow us to suffer in silence.

I researched CBT and LBGT on Google and found that it is being used but so far not to convert the patient back to "Normal"  but rather to cope with the effects of being LBGT in a society that hates us. I couldn't find anything that indicated it is used to make LBGT people less offensive to the general population.

Since the subject of this is de transition, using CBT to detransition is slightly different and I would like to know how successful Interalia thinks it is. That is to say, how much better is your life living as male with CBT vs living as female? you say you aren't advocating it but you alluded to a number of transfolk who were actively detransitioning. Are they also using CBT?

Most people who I know do not transition or detransition have their own coping techniques - usually they involve expressing femininity in limited but relieving ways.  Some take hormones, some live part time as female.  Some work to avoid their triggers and so live reclusive lives.  To my knowledge I am the exception.  I have advanced psychological training and an extremely open mind to new ideas.  I've combined the things I've learned and my own experiences to work to 'diagnose' and use therapeutic techniques on myself.  Most have to do with relieving/preventing the anxiety provoked by triggers or eliminating triggers.

So how does life compare from my transition to my detransition state?  They each have their own challenges and while I've never compiled a great comparison, your message provokes me to do so.  That will take time, more time than I have right now, but I can say - due to my specific advantages I had with regard to transition, I believe I could have been sufficiently happy living the rest of my life as female.  I compare my happiness in transition to be similar if not a little better than my life now.  HOWEVER - that is considering the fact I had many tremendous advantages in my transition.  Had I the setbacks and challenges I saw so many others with, I can say that life is definitely better now. 

I feel it very important to mention that life as a female and life as a detransitoned (trigger controlling) male are excessively better than life was before transition.  I was a slave to my triggers back then, and could think of nothing else but the pain caused by my GID.  I dulled the pain in my addictions and in distracting myself continuously, but when the high left, and the stimulus went silent, I was alone with my GID which tore me apart.  The only wrong answer to me, was doing nothing at all.

Quote from: Janet Lynn on August 29, 2010, 04:02:05 PM
I tried many things over the years to keep from transitioning.  CBT was but one of many.  Some of the things it did were not the nice things ether.

Back when I tried to transition, 20 plus years, my then therapist used the SOC as gospel.  She would not give an reference for HRT for 6 months, she also stated that I had to begin RLE immediately.  I was forced to do things I was not mentally ready for.  As a result I went back into the closet and made a mess off my life.

I was always angry and I hated life.  Even with a good woman beside me, I hate life.  When I could take it no more , I tried to take that last big step and almost succeeded in taking my own life.

I now look forward to a brighter future.  There is no hard and fast rules for this thing called GID.  There is a set of guidelines called the Standard Of Care.  They are there for a reason.  Shortcutting them will do more harm than good.  And this has been proven over and over again.  But by demanding that the SOC be used as the rulebook is also just as bad.

If one is happy with plodding along and continue to fight, let them.  But if they must transition then use the SOC as a guideline.  Some will go faster and some will go slower.

This sort of thing really burns me. These people claim to be professionals. They imply they have some sort of experteese. In reality, they are simply following a step by step manual with no regard for the individual. They realy motive, I suggest, and that of most of these types, is theor own egos and feelings of power.

Such behaviour has a lable. It's called psychopathy. But since such lables are already the preserve of these people, they can get away with murder.

Janet. My heart goes out to you my love. No-one should have to deal with such evil scum.

I suppose the questions that I want to ask are.

1. If life transitioned was better why de-transition at all? That does not seem to add up.

and

2. What do you do if your need is not to "express femininity" in terms of some behaviours but merely to have physically female shaped bits?

For me nothing else was going to relieve the feelings. It was a strong case of DISMORPHIC feeling rather than any discomfort with my gender role.

If people wanted to treat me as male now, I would be marginally ok with that. Yes I would definitely rather that they didn't, but the physical was way the most important thing, and that would now remain altered however people choose to treat me or see me.

Quote from: interalia on August 29, 2010, 03:54:31 PM
That isn't because it doesn't exist, but because it is often subjugated, derided, and cast out.  We do our community a disservice by silencing, intimidating, or diminishing the validity of the experiences of those who regret transition, de-transition, or choose not to transition.  We need to hear from these brothers and sisters - they too need support, and their stories should serve as a sobering reminder of how important it is to be real with yourself and the professionals who are trying to help you.

Very true! An important thing to add, the number of people who never transition, or de-transition, for whatever reason, are likely much higher than the percentage of those who successfully transition.

Z

Most people who I know do not transition or detransition have their own coping techniques - usually they involve expressing femininity in limited but relieving ways.

Interalia if you don't mind me asking do you think for yourself and/or other people who detransition that social reasons played a part in why you/they transitioned in the first place? And what I mean by that is say someone assigned male (or female) at birth, but express themselves in a feminine (or masculine) way or wish to, but society can not be very accepting of it at times and they may feel forced to act one way causing them distress or face ridicule, which led them to transition. I would think everyone would agree that there is nothing wrong with a feminine man, or a masculine woman, but like I mentioned earlier society can have issues with that, but that doesn't mean there's anything wrong with the person, society just needs stop being ignorant. I guess what I'm leading up to is that if that were the cause for someone to transition I could understand why they detransition as their sex assigned at birth wasn't the issue, but the stress of not being able to express themselves freely. Just what you said (at the top of my post) "expressing femininity in limited but relieving ways" made me think why does it have to be limited?

The issue though for (some? most?) transgender/transsexual people is when their own body causes them dysphoria, that isn't caused by society or whatever, that is a real issue for someone (and I'm sure most people have body issues, but this is a lot different than saying oh I wish prettier or something). So when someones body causes them extremes amount dysphoria/distress(/pick your word) that can lead someone to take hormones, get surgery, etc. I know this was the reason for my transition anyways. I think if you were to put a cis-gender person into another body of the opposite sex they would have these feelings to.

And I just refreshed the thread and Jenny just mentioned the same thing too (in a lot less words lol), grrr! :P

I think this is a fascinating discussion.  The main thing I get from it is that we are all different and have different needs and things driving us.

For Jenny and Katelyn it was physical, but for me it was mainly social – I couldn't feel free without living full time as a woman.  Dee put her children's needs first while others have said they couldn't.  Some have to transition early against all odds and are successful, while others of us wait until we have fewer barriers.  I waited until I was in my sixties, but once I saw the door open I scooted through lickety-split.

And so, because we are all different, we shouldn't criticize another for his or her decisions.  The decision may make no sense to us, but that is because we don't have the same situation or drivers.  And, because we are different, the SOC should be a guideline applied with care and compassion.

Still, as TG people considering transition, we need to remember several things – transition will not solve all our problems, and the competent professionals are there to help us and guide us.  Therapy, if done right, is a cooperative effort between the two people involved.

- Kate

Quote from: Ashley4214 on August 26, 2010, 04:44:55 AM
From the moment I realized transition was an option, it's, for me, a one way street, I either make it or I die along the way, but there is no going back.

I couldn't have said it any better than this.

Have a great day.

I agree Kate. I didn't mean to imply that transitioning for mainly social reasons is wrong, all paths are valid. I mean social reasons do play a part for me otherwise I wouldn't have legally changed my name, and be stealth in a new job, I want to be seen as female, as me (just not my main reason I guess). Anyways I've enjoyed reading this topic, I've found it interesting :)

Quote from: Dee_pntx on August 29, 2010, 04:36:26 PM
I can't believe that some people even said things like "not even for the sake of my kids."

I put the needs of my kids FIRST.  I needed badly to live as a woman but their need of a father figure outweighed my needs.

I had the option to put their needs after my needs but that would have been self centered and inconsiderate.

I do not regret that I took time out to be there for them growing up.  It made me mature and become a better person as I learned to put the needs of others before mine.

I do not want to seem to be arguing with you here because i have the greatest respect for the choice you made, but for me, this is how i evaluate it:

1. if I concede to the point that "they need a father figure" then I am confirming the societal bigotry that I can't be a good parent as a woan by my actions;

2. if I "wear a mask" ostensibly for the good of my kids, then how can i tell them "be yourself and don't be subject to society's pressures to look and act a certain way" when my own behavior sent exactly the opposite message.

3. if I hide my true self from them then i potentially communicate that i have something to be ashamed of, again confirming by my actions the P.O.V. of the bigots.

4. I'd rather my kids learn acceptance (and they have) than the hatefulness their mom displays

5. My whole life the message internally and externally was "think of others before yourself" and in that rubric, there will always be SOME loved one who you are expected to think about. I daresay I wouldn't be where i am now if I had realized 20 years ago that such a line of reasoning was a trap (although I can't say I regret actions which led to the existence of my sons).

6. if i did de-transition (or not transition) "for my kids" i would be giving them a depressive, melancholy, unmotivated shell of a man - the illusion of "daddy" without the content.

At the end of the day, it's not (in my judgment) whether or not one is trans that "hurts your kids" - it's how the society and culture reacts to you. if one does, as you did, have to hold off until they are grown, what you are really saving them from is the slings and arrows of being associated with a "freak" (in the eyes of society) not being "fatherless"

Again, always, IMO.

I recently thought about detransitiong because I was sick of people saying I will never be real, and that I am a social deviant. I thought, if I were a girl , Id be real in the eyes of society and wouldnt be accused of being someone Im not, and save thousands and my family the pain.
But it doesn't work that way. When I think I might not be male afterall I get sad and scared.

My GID is twofold, social which is older, and physical. I can't get over the second part even if I suppressed the first in some way. And either would just be suicide to me, if not in body then in mind. I look at my compass and the only direction it has is forward.

In my case even the social aspects had a physical underpinning: a horrible aching, lifelong pain, and a pitiful, sad despair in the depths of my soul that finally drove me to the only solution possible for me other than premature death, and that was seeking a cure through transition and reassignment surgery. Thankfully, the cure seems to have worked. And while I acknowledge that others may require less drastic solutions, I know what worked for me so that I never have to feel that dreadful, horrid pain that was mine again. That is something everyone has to find for themselves according to what level it affects their lives. We all come to this from different places, and our success or failure at however we deal with it is ultimately up to ourselves.

I'm afraid if it were even possible that any other permanent "cure" could be effected, it would be forced down our throats by those who think they know us better than we know ourselves. My life is good now, I have peace and fulfillment, and I cannot even imagine trying to live life as a man again. What a horrible nightmare that would be.

so many interesting replies!
which to me breaks us down into four groups: 
the ones who never learned to live as original sex and transition very young'
the ones who decide we have to live female regardless - which implies we are classis TS who would and do feel happier transitioned despite setbacks from problems from work, family, public,
the ones who held back because of family rearing but then go full steam ahead,
the ones who detransition because of a need to be male - which includes holding onto the male job with all its money and prestige - these ones are not really TS but are somewhere else on the CD/TV spectrum.

Quote from: lilacwoman on August 30, 2010, 01:33:39 AM
so many interesting replies!
which to me breaks us down into four groups: 
the ones who never learned to live as original sex and transition very young'
the ones who decide we have to live female regardless - which implies we are classis TS who would and do feel happier transitioned despite setbacks from problems from work, family, public,
the ones who held back because of family rearing but then go full steam ahead,
the ones who detransition because of a need to be male - which includes holding onto the male job with all its money and prestige - these ones are not really TS but are somewhere else on the CD/TV spectrum.

The fourth group I would say are not necessarily non-TS. Some people have horribly high debts or need a lot of money for their families or have maybe a somewhat less intense dysphoria and have other priorities in their lives at that moment.

I'd add a fifth and a sixth group.
The ones who don't transition and don't out themselves to anyone (but maybe a few friends) or only drop hints (I used to date such a person).
The ones who are out at least in their private lives but don't transition physically, no matter what pronouns and names they go by (some of these have been good friends of mine for 10 or 12 years).

@Tippe,

thank you very much for your insightful posting. You have a lot of good points here and it was a very interesting read.

Quote from: Tippe on August 28, 2010, 05:50:13 AMNow alot of communication studies show that strict observation will make the applicants exhibit a presentation focus where they are very keen on not saying or doing anything wrong, which obviously hinders dialogue and reflections. When I contacted the clinic for help I actually wanted to discuss my feelings about being transgender, how to handle them and which worries I had about the transition I had begun, but it was soon evident that if I wanted to get anywhere the only way I could do it was by telling the story of being a girl since the get go and hidding any and every doubts. To get anywhere you have to plead for HRT from the start and to be allowed to get them you have to tell that you want GRS in the end. No middle way. This is especially stupid since hormones themselves are readily available in Denmark. So they should know that people, who are not on HRT already when they seek the clinic go to them for other reasons than the HRT itself...
(...)
Worst of all studies show that the two most common reasons for regret are bad surgical outcomes and rejection or other issues with family and friends. For this reason the Danish approach may actually well be responsible for high regretfullness due to lack of surgical experience in the country and lack of possibility of working on family issues and other problems which might arise.Tippe

I agree to what many said, that living full time for quite a while should be a prerequisitive for SRS, and even if you can bypass that, you should still give yourself a moratorium here.  I also agree that a set of rules is not a bad idea, but I'd like the Standards of Care to have a few forks with various paths you can pick from (the German Standards of Care are much more "one size fits all" than the Benjamin Standards here and offer less choice, plus Germans love rules so the shrinks here tend to even take the suggestions from the Standards as a gospel to follow by the word). I once talked to one of the gender therapists who was involved in creating the German Standards, she is half-French half-German (I'm half-French too) and she agreed to this and said she would have expected more flexibility here and was disappointed at most German shrinks' stubborn approach. As the whole German Standards are officially a suggestion, not a rule. I looked at her and said: "Don't expect from Germans that they take official suggestions for what they are - suggestions. Whatever looks remotely like a rule will be treated like a rule." And she laughed and said "you're right".

I also don't like the transsexual scene encourage people to go the "one right path". Very dangerous, that. Plus here, many of them think - I have a GID problem, the authorities have found an official ruleset for that (German Standards) so this is exactly the way to go, from start to end, as authorities are always right. Ouch.

In my case, for example, I did not want to go full-time before passing as male, which was impossible before hormones had their effect. I had been bullied at school as a teen and was extremely afraid how people would react at work and university. Plus both my job and my time at university would have ended one year later, so it seemed somewhat pointless for me to do the big "I look like a girl but call me a boy's name and say "he" instead of "she" thing". Shrink said I had to for getting on hormones though, as I had to get the experience how it feels like being called "he" and a boy's name and being treated as a guy before T.

Now first, I could not pass before T cause of my physical make-up, so I would not be treated like a guy but like a woman who wants to be called by a boy's name - so that would be a real-life experience as a transgendered person being out everywhere, not as a guy. Plus in my private live, I had hung around a lot with other non-transitioning people who were genderqueer or transgendered, we knew of each others' situation. Some wanted gender-congruent pronouns and names used, others were okay with the sex-congruent ones as long as it was clear for others that it was not who they were and they were not expected to fit in the according gender box. So I knew and saw from some of them what happens if you do the "no passing, but my own gender mode" thing and I knew this was no solution for me.

I also hung out with a couple of gay guys who often gave each other female names and pronouns just for fun, so I did not mind how these people called me. So going the path the way my shrink requested would not have been THAT revealing for me to find out whether I was trans or not, it would only have put unnecessary stress on me at work as a "test" to see if I was obstinate enough about transition to cope with that stress. I found that silly.

I also had had dissociative identity disorder (DID) which was mostly cured by then and I wanted to rule out that I was still much more split up than I thought and that my GID was a false positive diagnosis with underlying DID. The path I officially had to follow would not have helped me getting clear here but would rather have masked it. If I still had DID, I could have lived full-time in male mode without feeling it's wrong for me as the fittest personalities for this, confident males, would have taken over and managed all the outside life and blocked off the girls I had -  and I would have coped with transrelated mobbing and stress by creating lots of new personalities which you don't want to happen if you're DID. So in my case, it was more useful to live part-time rather than full-time before T just to see if I was the same person in both modes.

So I'm one of the examples why one size does not fit all. And I could have been one example of a detransitioner if my GID had not been genuine but masked by both my DID plus strict adherence to the Standards. Transition consumes lots of energy anyway, but going the strict Standards path would have eaten up much more energy and made me focus too much on the trans stuff and less on other things I had to get done in my life.

Plus I think that this path pushes some people to go through the whole thing. First you "ridiculize" yourself with the "yet no passing but new pronouns and name mode" thing everywhere, then people get somewhat used to it and some of them get your explanation, so then if you go back... that would give you the stigma of being a very unstable person who does not know what they want - wonder how many people go the whole way cause of the fear of getting that stigma, therefore I think that in many cases, it's just counter-productive. Unless your physical make-up is such that you will never pass well.

Instead, I wanted a longer moratorium before getting on T, one year instead of a half from start of therapy with the option of waiting even longer before getting on T. We agreed on that, and I clung to it. (I'm in my second Testo moratorium at the moment.) But the shrink absolutely insisted on me being in male mode full-time for 6 months before T cause he closely observed the Standards so I had to lie to him, which was stressful but hey, I just deliberately split up a little bit again so I could manage to do that without being caught lying (it was counterproductive but necessary for T). I also did not feel free to speak about my doubts with him and hid some things away from him though I was open about having residual DID. He was no expert for DID and was convinced that going full-time before T was THE litmus test to find out whether I still had it or not and I would not get T if I did not do this. And I did not want to wake his suspicions about how I would transition by explaining to him that it's not how it works in multiple systems and why not.

But I had the luck to have my non-transitioning transgendered, genderqueer and dissociative friends to talk to about doubts, alternative options etc. which was a great gift for me and worth more than a gender therapy. And I also read some of the "professional" stuff about GID, some of which was esoteric psychoanalytic weird stuff, and some of which made good sense.

I'd suggest to everyone to read up professional stuff and meet non-transitioning transgendered and genderqueer people unless they have the chance to find a shrink who is somewhat more open-minded and does not adhere to the Standards of Care like they're a gospel. And I think it's a good idea to adapt the Standards to yourself so that you can use other loops and moratoriums for yourself if it feels right for you, rather than rushing through the process.

@Interalia
What you write here is extremely interesting. I'd really love to hear more about the detransitioners you meet, their motivations, how family friends etc. reacted to their detransition and how they cope with it etc. It's very sad the other transsexuals treat them badly.

Before I started to transition I was suicidal. After I began self medicating I couldn't wait for the changes to be visible. I looked in the mirror one day and realized I no longer had a feminine face and thought to myself "it's too late to go back now, thank God."

I have now started to lose my hair, it was a slow loss at first, I just thought my hairline was changing as it seems to do for most FtMs. Then it started thinning, now I am noticeably bald in places. Vanity makes me wish I could keep my hair but there's nothing I can really do about it and at least being bald will help me look more masculine  :)

The image of the transitioned me I had in my head before I began testosterone bears no resemblance at all to the real me that stares back from the mirror. In my head I'm 6' tall, a full head of hair, athletic and handsome. In reality I am short, overweight and going bald. There is a period that is almost like grieving for the impossible fantasy that I was never going to be anyway. I'm just having to stick it out and work with what nature throws at me. There is a lot that I can do to help myself, ie lose weight and become fit. No matter how hard I try I am never going to reach 6' tall. One thing I do know is that I'm happier as a non-descript male than I ever was as a passable looking female.

I wonder if perhaps the realisation that the actual transitioned self bears very little similarity to the fantasy transitioned self could be a factor in the decision to de-transition for some people?

Regardless of looks the one thing I have found is that since I started on T, I'm the calmest I have ever been in my life. All of my previous life problems are still around, transitioning won't alter those for anyone, but I find that I'm a lot less stressy than I was with people. I finally feel like I've come home after a very long journey.

Obviously any of us could de-transition at any point but it's the consequences of that de-transitioning which would vary for all of us. Some wouldn't be able to live, some would struggle on but hate themselves inside, others may even do quite well.


ETA I did go through a stage of thinking "what the hell have I done?" but I know it's because I was having to adjust to changes and learn to adapt. No matter how much I was desperate to transition it was still hard having to face up to coming out of my every day comfort zone and realize that life is never going to be the same again.

Quote from: Katelyn-W on August 29, 2010, 05:13:55 PM
Most people who I know do not transition or detransition have their own coping techniques - usually they involve expressing femininity in limited but relieving ways.

Interalia ... Just what you said (at the top of my post) "expressing femininity in limited but relieving ways" made me think why does it have to be limited?

That was my thought too when I first read the Interalia-blog. It seems inherent in the blog that you consider male-bodied persons expressing femininity as something which is somehow wrong or at least in some way having to be limited.

In reality I believe human beings are far more diverse both biologically and psychologically than society usually accepts. After going through personality testing at the GIC I looked-up sex separated scores from the test they used and analysed them. While there was a difference in mean values between the sexes the standard deviation turned out to be four times greater, which translates into some 93% of all people scoring in the area overlapping between the male and female curves. Simmilarily huge variations have been demonstrated in biology. For instance my mother, sister and I were almost exactly the same body height while my only brother is 17 cm higher than me. And there are other oddities about my body too.

I think rather than limiting our expressions we should be much more accepting of natural variation regarding biology, psychology and expression. In fact I have a feeling that in some cases the need to physically transition is strongly coupled with a belief that our way of life will only be socially acceptable if we go through that physical transition.

Quote from: Fencesitter on August 30, 2010, 06:57:39 AM
So I'm one of the examples why one size does not fit all.

Plus I think that this path pushes some people to go through the whole thing. First you "ridiculize" yourself with the "yet no passing but new pronouns and name mode" thing everywhere, then people get somewhat used to it and some of them get your explanation, so then if you go back... that would give you the stigma of being a very unstable person who does not know what they want - wonder how many people go the whole way cause of the fear of getting that stigma, therefore I think that in many cases, it's just counter-productive. Unless your physical make-up is such that you will never pass well.

I agree, while I believe Real Life Experience is very important and that I learned a lot from tackling the initial discrimination, I would have preferred support in doing more experimentation before I started the RLE. I'm not afraid of peoples reactions if I'd switch back to being male, my mother would be way too happy to see that and they'd just disregard my last three years as a phase. No, what worries me is how it would affect my life when I - as most of the persons with a transition pause - find myself retransitioning later. For one thing I'm in the middle of a female gendered education. How would my curriculum end up if I'd go back to working in a completely different trade for lets say three years and then retransition and continue my current education. Would my family - who is reasonly accepting now - understand it?

Quote(I'm in my second Testo moratorium at the moment.)

Do you mean going on and off hormones?

QuoteBut the shrink absolutely insisted on me being in male mode full-time for 6 months before T cause he closely observed the Standards so I had to lie to him, which was stressful but hey, I just deliberately split up a little bit again so I could manage to do that without being caught lying (it was counterproductive but necessary for T). I also did not feel free to speak about my doubts with him and hid some things away from him though I was open about having residual DID.

While I admit I'm no expert on DID I would think RLE is usually a good idea, but it seemed to me that you needed to do more experimentation together with an open minded counseller before starting the actual RLE. I would have preferred that too - not that I do not flourish in my transition, I am just the kind of person who wants to be absolutely sure about the things I do.

When rules are interpreted so strictly that we cannot discuss our doubts with the therapists counselling looses much of its value, sadly.


Tippe

I've had a few times when I thought that life would have been simpler if I hadn't transitioned.  (Transitioning is complicated. >:()  I would be wistful for the good old days that are in my memory.  But then I would remember that they weren't all that good after all.

Quote from: JohnR on August 30, 2010, 07:24:06 AM
The image of the transitioned me I had in my head before I began testosterone bears no resemblance at all to the real me that stares back from the mirror.

Hoo boy, John, you hit the nail on the head for me.  My (cis) girlfriends are very good at listening to me kvetch about not looking like a 20 year-old college student with a cute body and then telling me to get over myself.  I just look like a normal woman my age, taller than some, slimmer (less curvy) than many, not pretty but OK – normal.

And let's be careful about categorizing.  For one thing, it can get to the point of being against the rules here at Susan's (TOS rule 10).  I used to design databases for a living (among other jobs), and I learned early on that no matter how well-designed a database was, something wouldn't fit into the slots.  As long as we acknowledge that these categories we make up are flexible, with permeable divisions, and that there is no hierarchy, we should be OK.

I began transition so that I could live as a woman at least part of the time and so that I wouldn't have to hide part of who I am from my friends.  I inched along, taking one step at a time to see if it felt right.  In the end, I discovered that with female hormones instead of male and with indoor plumbing instead of outdoor I feel "right" for the first time in my life.  I didn't know that when I began but do now.  (Actually, I didn't know I could feel this good. :))  But I also know that my experience isn't everyone's.

- Kate

Quote from: Tippe on August 30, 2010, 08:46:23 AMI agree, while I believe Real Life Experience is very important and that I learned a lot from tackling the initial discrimination, I would have preferred support in doing more experimentation before I started the RLE.

Oh yes. Same for me, or at least acceptance for a gentle slide into full-time RLE without the T start being delayed over and over again until exactly 6 months of full-time, and more freedom for experimentation. E. g. switching between male, female, neutral and drag clothes daily just to see what that made with me. Well I still did what I wanted after therapy start but lied at my shrink, and kept/hid away from other trans people who had contact with him when I was dressed in drag or female. My biggest fear at that time was - them telling him they had seen me in a dress, so I only wore female stuff when I was relatively safe or hid female tops under a male jacket until at work etc. Just one example of the flexibility options I would have liked to keep and explore openly.

Quote from: Tippe on August 30, 2010, 08:46:23 AMI'm not afraid of peoples reactions if I'd switch back to being male, my mother would be way too happy to see that and they'd just disregard my last three years as a phase. No, what worries me is how it would affect my life when I - as most of the persons with a transition pause - find myself retransitioning later. For one thing I'm in the middle of a female gendered education. How would my curriculum end up if I'd go back to working in a completely different trade for lets say three years and then retransition and continue my current education. Would my family - who is reasonly accepting now - understand it?

Yes, I understand that. I was not afraid of peoples' reactions in my private life for almost the same reasons as you. But I was afraid of peoples' reactions at work and university should I decide to stop the RLE and go back to female mode. Which is why I did not out myself there even after I was one year on testo (I just shaved right before work/university, did not honestly answer colleagues' questions about my voice change, wore mostly male clothes there and changed my job after that, and university was over then anyway). I did not want to put anything in my way if I decided to detransition socially, so transition at work was no option for me at that time. I know my personality and fear of mobbing well enough to know I could have shunned away from early detransitioning if I was too out as trans everywhere too early - meaning before passing was possible cause of T effects.

Quote from: Tippe on August 30, 2010, 08:46:23 AM
Do you mean going on and off hormones?

Yes, off T at the moment, completely pre-op as well, but living in male mode (and cause of the chances, zero passing as female, not even as a butch lesbian any more). Just to see what that does do my body and how I psychologically react to these changes. I'm not out as being off T to anyone of the people in my life but three or four friends. One of the additional loops I decided to implant for myself which the Standards don't request anyone to do.

Quote from: Tippe on August 30, 2010, 08:46:23 AM
While I admit I'm no expert on DID I would think RLE is usually a good idea, but it seemed to me that you needed to do more experimentation together with an open minded counseller before starting the actual RLE. I would have preferred that too - not that I do not flourish in my transition, I am just the kind of person who wants to be absolutely sure about the things I do.

I'm like you here. Well I did the experimentation anyway and had started doing it with the aim of finding out what's GID and what's DID about me two years before I started therapy. But I did not feel like I could be open about what I actually did and had done at therapy. And yes, I had no councelling for my experiments by any professional, but the friends I had helped here just as well if not better.

Quote from: Tippe on August 30, 2010, 08:46:23 AM
When rules are interpreted so strictly that we cannot discuss our doubts with the therapists counselling looses much of its value, sadly.

Agree 100%. This is why I think both German and Benjamin Standards should allow more different paths, not faster or "easier" ones, but just... different paths between which you could decide together with your therapist.

Quote from: interalia on August 29, 2010, 09:32:20 AM
Wow, I cannot believe I didn't see this thread earlier, especially with so many replies.

I personally detransitioned and know many others who have too.  The HBSOC (Harry Benjamin Standards of Care) which was the primary method of gatekeeping back when I transitioned in the late 90's, was and still acts as a godsend.  Without it I might very well have made a major mistake.

I lived full time, had a job, dated, and was going to school and I was very happy with my female role.  However, I couldn't get past the nagging doubts that all this was in my head.  Regardless of the fact that my brain was telling me "I'm a girl, I'm a girl, this is right, being male was wrong" I felt like my brain, like with so many other conditions of the mind, could have been lying to me.  I also hated the lying and deceit that went with transition to maintain stealth - modifying the experiences of my past constantly, never feeling like I could honest or real with anyone.  I thought "damn I went to all this trouble to 'be myself' and I cannot even be honest now!  I'm still a in a box!"

Well I got sick of the box and the lies and starting 'coming out' that I was transgendered.  For some reason, having people know of my past made me feel more at ease - a lot more at ease but it caused problems of its own.  Dating prospects were more difficult obviously and some of the people I knew who were cool with the female me, couldn't handle that the person they thought was always female wasn't.

The final thing that kicked me into going back, to detransitioning was seeing all of the incredibly disappointed and unhappy people who were transitioned.  Im not talk about on the forums, but in real life.  After all they did, they still regretted, still bemoaning things they were missing in their lives and those sadnesses were consuming them.  Those who didn't pass at all were even more depressed and I had to deal with a number of other TG people I knew committing suicide.  I started to think "there has to be another way!  Not everyone can have a successful transition, and those who do seem to have the potential for intense lingering sadness".

So I decided, even though I might be one of the lucky ones who transitioned at 19, could pass easily and quickly, I realized I wanted to see if I could make it as a guy again, so long as I was "out", didn't live in the box of being male, and tried cognitive behavioral therapy techniques to control the triggers that provoked my GID.  After all, if it didn't work, I could always go back right?

***

Let me mention about something Kate said.  Kate said that the RLE, as annoying as it is to many transpeople, is very important for weeding out those who could otherwise live without transition.  I echo that so strongly it moves me to tears.  The detransition group I am a part of has VERY strict confidentiality rules - for one to protect their identities, and two to protect them from members of the trans community who don't want to hear about them, but I will tell you this.

Nearly every post op I've met who detransitioned only got into the mess they did because they DIDN'T follow the the proper order set out by the SOC or WPATH.  Sure, roll your damned eyes at me you doubters and naysayers and "I should be able to whatever I want"ers, but I'm serious - gravely serious.  These people were the same way, they were convinced they would DIE without transition, they never thought for a moment they'd regret any part of it, afterall, their whole lives they wanted it.  They listened to people who said the RLE was dumb and gatekeepers were annoying, and justified hurrying the process.  They also cite pressure from other TS's to transition, transition, transition - which all of us can attest exists from our community even if it isn't direct, it is always indirectly there.  Finally they cite they never knew there was another way to do it to live with GID without transition.  These people are generally very sad pandas.  In their shoes I probably would have remained transitioned, but I cannot be sure, but they exist, and they deal with challenges many of us couldn't dream of.

In fine I'd like to say that even if you have no doubts when you begin transition, don't believe for a moment you'll never change, don't cut corners on the SOC, don't think you are better or more "trans" than others.  These attitudes can blind you to the reality of the possibility that you *might change your mind as remote or impossible as that may be, and then it will be you I get to read about - you who wished things were different, that you had stopped earlier, that wished you had taken more precautions.

I hope you can see why I don't really like seeing gender-questioning individuals being pushed into transition's path.  The truth is MOST MOST MOST of the people I know who have regretted it and are post op... wait for it... transitioned YOUNG (before 30).  In the end, people change, and they change A LOT in their 20s.  Take that as a warning you whipper snappers. ;)

Its funny because i had the total opposite experience to you.  I know at least 30 or 40 TS people around here.  Some are my close friends but we all meet and talk at a big party once a month.  EVERYONE is happy they transitioned.  Not a single person is sad or regrets it, Post op or Pre-op, MTF or FTM. 

Also to the people believe that transitioning will make your life roses, thats BS.  Transitioning does not make your life easier in anyway, in fact it makes it more difficult, however, it does fix whats wrong with you internally, so instead of dealing with issues inside and out, you have peace inside which helps you better deal with what happens outside.  If people believe that transitioning will fix their problems, nope, it doesn't fix the kind of person you are, you will have to do that by yourself. 

I am not even done transitioning and already i am feeling peace and my life totally turned around, while i was a failure before, now i am a success.  Things that were difficult are now easy.  Making friends for example, before it was hard, now its surprisingly easy, i dont even have to try...  among tons of other things that just didnt make sense before but now make perfect sense. 

Thats all i have to say...

This thread has caused me to reevaluate my feelings about how my life is post transition and whether I would entertain going back to living as a male. I agree with the majority of posters in that I too am pleased to live in my true gender. However, it does have it's major problems especially for a same sex couple. Had I left my wife and gotten into a relationship with a man, I think my feelings about life post transition would be very much different.

That is to say that all my reasons for considering detransition come from fears of being hurt or worse because of being in a same sex marriage. I won't say that I am a lesbian because I understand from another thread here at Susan's that one cannot be a lesbian until one has sex with another lesbian. So I really don't know what sexual orientation I am because of this but I know it is not straight. It doesn't matter much anyway because others see my marriage as same sex.

We have experienced quite our share of problems such as my wife not getting hired because she told the prospective employer that she was married to a transwoman. It was a slam dunk hire before that and they told her so but after that revelation, it was over. AND they had a nationwide search for six months prior looking for the precise skill set that my wife had.  The next two jobs she got, she lied about me saying I was still her husband and they dare never find out. That makes her employee benefits out of reach for me.

Then in getting a house to rent, we were humiliated three times because we were a same sex couple. Finally, we almost had to grovel to get a place for us and that in a liberal Calfornia town. It seems that landlords tend to be conservative and biased even though it is against the law to be so. Just try and prove they are. Can't be done.

It is also true that I lost the love of my life in her because she only sees me in a sister like relationship. I have been in deep grief over this for several years.

These things made me susceptible to going back but I forgot what it was like then.  My experience with GID was not constant but it increased more and more as time went on. It was like the woman inside me was determined to come out no matter what it cost. How could I expect to go back to that?

All that said, this morning one thing became clear. I looked at myself in the mirror and liked who I saw. When I was living as a male, I found that reflection revolting to the point that I refused to look at myself. Now, that is a torment that is far gone from me and I know that going back to seeing him again would be catastrophic.  The end result of all this mental exercise is that I will never de transition. It is better this way even if it means we must continually struggle against mean and hateful people who think they are doing good to harm LBGT people.


Maggie

Quote from: lilacwoman on August 30, 2010, 01:33:39 AM
the ones who detransition because of a need to be male - which includes holding onto the male job with all its money and prestige - these ones are not really TS but are somewhere else on the CD/TV spectrum.

I believe your assumption to be incorrect; that everyone who de-transitions wants to be male or that they aren't TS. Please don't define others unless you have walked a mile in your sisters' shoes.

Z

Quote from: MaggieB on August 30, 2010, 12:27:34 PM
This thread has caused me to reevaluate my feelings about how my life is post transition and whether I would entertain going back to living as a male. I agree with the majority of posters in that I too am pleased to live in my true gender. However, it does have it's major problems especially for a same sex couple. Had I left my wife and gotten into a relationship with a man, I think my feelings about life post transition would be very much different.

That is to say that all my reasons for considering detransition come from fears of being hurt or worse because of being in a same sex marriage. I won't say that I am a lesbian because I understand from another thread here at Susan's that one cannot be a lesbian until one has sex with another lesbian. So I really don't know what sexual orientation I am because of this but I know it is not straight. It doesn't matter much anyway because others see my marriage as same sex.

We have experienced quite our share of problems such as my wife not getting hired because she told the prospective employer that she was married to a transwoman. It was a slam dunk hire before that and they told her so but after that revelation, it was over. AND they had a nationwide search for six months prior looking for the precise skill set that my wife had.  The next two jobs she got, she lied about me saying I was still her husband and they dare never find out. That makes her employee benefits out of reach for me.

Then in getting a house to rent, we were humiliated three times because we were a same sex couple. Finally, we almost had to grovel to get a place for us and that in a liberal Calfornia town. It seems that landlords tend to be conservative and biased even though it is against the law to be so. Just try and prove they are. Can't be done.

It is also true that I lost the love of my life in her because she only sees me in a sister like relationship. I have been in deep grief over this for several years.

These things made me susceptible to going back but I forgot what it was like then.  My experience with GID was not constant but it increased more and more as time went on. It was like the woman inside me was determined to come out no matter what it cost. How could I expect to go back to that?

All that said, this morning one thing became clear. I looked at myself in the mirror and liked who I saw. When I was living as a male, I found that reflection revolting to the point that I refused to look at myself. Now, that is a torment that is far gone from me and I know that going back to seeing him again would be catastrophic.  The end result of all this mental exercise is that I will never de transition. It is better this way even if it means we must continually struggle against mean and hateful people who think they are doing good to harm LBGT people.


Maggie

If your wife was discriminated against via housing or job, that is against the law and you can sue them like you wouldn't believe. 

Quote from: Izumi on August 30, 2010, 01:13:26 PM
If your wife was discriminated against via housing or job, that is against the law and you can sue them like you wouldn't believe.

In practice is not practical because it is so hard to prove. We are not in a position to hire a lawyer to even consider such a thing. It takes money and time to sue and once done, do you really think that the next prospective employer or landlord will even accept an application once it is known that we sue? These people have ways of discrimination that are so shady that the laws are basically useless. The law is more of a social statement saying that we want it to be this way but we won't enforce it.

Maggie

Quote from: MaggieB on August 30, 2010, 01:25:51 PM
In practice is not practical because it is so hard to prove. We are not in a position to hire a lawyer to even consider such a thing. It takes money and time to sue and once done, do you really think that the next prospective employer or landlord will even accept an application once it is known that we sue? These people have ways of discrimination that are so shady that the laws are basically useless. The law is more of a social statement saying that we want it to be this way but we won't enforce it.

Maggie

You dont have to sue per say, you can let the proper authorities know and they will check into it and write a report.  If they are found that your allegations are true then you will have an open and shut case for a suit, then you wont need to look for a place to live because the law suit will probably give you enough to buy your only place cash. 

Also it doesnt hurt to talk to lawyer and see what they say, there are plenty that dont charge unless they win the case.

Seriously though if that happened to me and I knew it was because of that, i would sue their butts off. 

Quote from: Zythyra on August 30, 2010, 01:01:51 PM
I believe your assumption to be incorrect; that everyone who de-transitions wants to be male or that they aren't TS. Please don't define others unless you have walked a mile in your sisters' shoes.
Z

What I cannot grasp about detransitioners is how their family, work and social circles can accept them back and pretend they never transitioned and equally I cannot understand anyone wanting to detransition if they have come out to all these circles and lived opposite for a length of time...but if they detransition back to male then they must want to be so regardless of what excuses they put up.

MaggieB

My wife and I stopped having a sexual relationship after about 10 years of marriage. In my case, I just couldn't manage it and it had become increasingly frustration.

Never-the-less, I was really upset for a time. I had tried so very hard to preform this 'duty'. Looking back, I'm now surprised that I took it, at the time, as such a slight on my ego.

But we are approaching 30 years. I have to say, looking back, it was one of the better decisions she made.

Not having the pressure of having to preform. The inevitable depression. If I did it OK, I felt terribel after I'd finished. If I did it badly, I felt terrible. If I failed, as inincrsingly did, I felt terrible.

When she announced to me that we would no-longer be doing that, I wandered around the house, for several weeks, I think, acting like a stroopy teenager. I really can't understand why I didn't just stop and think about it. When I eventually did, I became much more relaxed.

I also have to say that I love my wife more than I love, even my own soul. There is nothing I wouldn't do for her.

Hope this helps.

Quote from: spacial on August 30, 2010, 06:26:44 PM
MaggieB

My wife and I stopped having a sexual relationship after about 10 years of marriage. In my case, I just couldn't manage it and it had become increasingly frustration.

Never-the-less, I was really upset for a time. I had tried so very hard to preform this 'duty'. Looking back, I'm now surprised that I took it, at the time, as such a slight on my ego.

But we are approaching 30 years. I have to say, looking back, it was one of the better decisions she made.

Not having the pressure of having to preform. The inevitable depression. If I did it OK, I felt terribel after I'd finished. If I did it badly, I felt terrible. If I failed, as inincrsingly did, I felt terrible.

When she announced to me that we would no-longer be doing that, I wandered around the house, for several weeks, I think, acting like a stroopy teenager. I really can't understand why I didn't just stop and think about it. When I eventually did, I became much more relaxed.

I also have to say that I love my wife more than I love, even my own soul. There is nothing I wouldn't do for her.

Hope this helps.

Thank you for the support. For us, we stopped about five years ago. I was the one who asked that we stop because I couldn't bear to act like a male when I wasn't. Plus when she found out that I was female it made her nauseous to think she was having sex with a female.

Now that I have this new body, there are some aspects of exploring it and what sex means now, are my needs. As for the detransition aspect of sex. I never ever considered sex in the male role again. OMG no.

Actually, I would like just to be able to cuddle or hold each other or even hold hands like we used to. A caress here and there, I am physical that way but she has shut down. I wanted those things even back when I couldn't be a male in bed. She didn't want that from me after that. So we rarely ever touch but once in a while we do hug like sisters do when there is a hurt.

I'd say we are still in love but it is not anything at all like the love I once new or need now.

Oh, just to be clear, I intend to be faithful to her for the rest of my life as she will to me.

Maggie

Quote from: Izumi on August 30, 2010, 01:35:05 PM
You dont have to sue per say, you can let the proper authorities know and they will check into it and write a report.  If they are found that your allegations are true then you will have an open and shut case for a suit, then you wont need to look for a place to live because the law suit will probably give you enough to buy your only place cash. 

Also it doesnt hurt to talk to lawyer and see what they say, there are plenty that dont charge unless they win the case.

Seriously though if that happened to me and I knew it was because of that, i would sue their butts off.

Particularly if you find a hungry, ambitious type.

I ask a local lawyer about what it would take to get a name change and he mentioned in the course of things that local redneck (not his word) judges might deny the petition which would require an appeal alleging discrimination and I mentioned how I probably wouldn't be able to afford anything like that and he got a big grin and said "let me worry about that"

He wanted to put a notch in his gun.

Quote
I wonder if perhaps the realisation that the actual transitioned self bears very little similarity to the fantasy transitioned self could be a factor in the decision to de-transition for some people?

I think that's a very good insight that maybe be quite true - but i suspect that if that was one's motivation they might be a bit ashamed to admit it.

One thing I sympathize with lilac on is the bit about the difficulty in having come out to everyone and then turning back - and the preception of instability or lack of seriousness that carries with it. Especially if one, for instance, lost a job or alienated a spouse or whatever in the process.

My wife swears if I went back it would make no difference to her what i've put her through but I insist that if - as she argues - this transition is optional and I don't HAVE to do it and yet i do this to her anyway, knowing full well what it puts her through....that's not the sort of person you want to be married to anyway.

Not that I mean to imply that without those factors I would de-trransition - but I can certainly understand how if i was otherwise tempted those factors would weigh heavily in the decision.

If I were to de-trans around here, I'd be even more a pariah than i could ever be as a transwoman.

Quote from: lilacwoman on August 30, 2010, 05:05:28 PM
What I cannot grasp about detransitioners is how their family, work and social circles can accept them back and pretend they never transitioned and equally I cannot understand anyone wanting to detransition if they have come out to all these circles and lived opposite for a length of time...but if they detransition back to male then they must want to be so regardless of what excuses they put up.

I transitioned in a small rural southern town, and lived totally openly for over a year. Everyone knew, and when I re-transitioned, they knew that too. There was no hiding anything, I lived in a glass house. My friends and family knew, and supported my decisions, whether or not they totally understood them. Many people understood that I simply did what I had to survive. And it was about survival. When I transitioned, I lost 2/3 of my work, and I was already living below the federal poverty level before transition. I had no insurance, and paid all transition costs out of pocket.

In fact, if anyone has ever said since, well it's good that you returned to male, I tell them that this simply isn't the case. I have always been who I was, and regardless of what I must do externally to survive, it doesn't change at all who I am inside. One can call me many things, but man isn't one of them.

Z

Quote from: lilacwoman on August 30, 2010, 05:05:28 PM
What I cannot grasp about detransitioners is how their family, work and social circles can accept them back and pretend they never transitioned and equally I cannot understand anyone wanting to detransition if they have come out to all these circles and lived opposite for a length of time...but if they detransition back to male then they must want to be so regardless of what excuses they put up.

My mother repeatedly told me I am a problem to her, because I'm transsexual. She has often said that she cannot bring herself to tell her friends, that she has a daughter without at least telling them that I'm transsexual and she feels ashamed of that too. She gave birth to a son, she said. She also doesn't want to get rid of baby pictures, where I'm naked and she has shown them to other people while I've been around even though that makes me very uncomfortable.
I was in fact dressed in girly pink, red and purple clothes and almost no blues for my first four years, and even though we have a lot of pictures of that she blankly denies that she did that. I think she feels somehow responsible for me turning into something she believes to be inferior and she therefore is in deep denial. Another thing is that she somehow cannot accept that she has any responsibility in her life's course, which is why she makes me into a problem. She even repeatedly excused her 25 years of unemployment on us kids although 92% of all single mums manages to stay at work. What she can't blame on us, she blames on my father, who left three weeks after my birth. She was the one baring him from any contact with us, however!

I've asked her to join me in family therapy, but as she sees it she has no problems whatsoever and she thinks I should just see a counsellor myself. She obviously do, however, since she recently started talking to one of my old acquaintences about how difficult it is for her to have a transgendered child and how strange she thinks that is. When she then proceeded to tell me that this person didn't like me either I decided I did not want to have contact with my mum for a long time. It's been two and a half month now. The rest of my family accepts me though.

IF I detransitioned she'd be all too happy to tell me that she always knew I was really just a man and that I was far out, when I thought I wasn't. She is so deep in denial, that she could easily just deny everything I went through just as she denied the existence of two full photo books we watched together twice!

Quote from: spacial on August 28, 2010, 11:47:30 AM
I went through dozens of reasons why my wish to be female was wrong and evil. I was seeking to emulate my mother, disgusting. I was lying to others, evil. I was being a wimp, coward and so on.

So, I went back.

All I really know for certain is that that was a mistake. I went back but the clock didn't. I don't know what else I could have done at that time. i don't know how it would have turned out even. All I can do is try to turn that into a lesson.

Thank you for sharing your story and nice to meet another nurse in here :)

Such considerations is part of my motivation to keep on transitioning. I realize that society and especially my mother has done everything they could to tell me that being the person I am is wrong. In the end I feel strongly that it is way more important to be true to yourself and be able to express who you are. One of my mottos are: It is most important to thrive as a person, being gendered comes second. Transition to me is about finding and becoming myself. Curiously it turns out that my person is interpreted as female and I have no trouble with that.
I realize that those feelings of ->-bleeped-<- being wrong or unacceptable is the basic problem, not the transgendering itself and I therefore work to better accept and embrace my diversity rather than tell myself that being who I am is being wrong.

Quote from: K8 on August 30, 2010, 08:56:16 AM
I've had a few times when I thought that life would have been simpler if I hadn't transitioned.  (Transitioning is complicated. >:()  I would be wistful for the good old days that are in my memory.  But then I would remember that they weren't all that good after all.

Kate, you're right about that and it's another reason, which keeps me going! Thinking back at my high school prom everyone thought I scored a very good partner, and I should have been happy. It was one of those moments to remember, people say. But the fact is even on that day of party I was far from happy and I almost thought about nothing, but why I wasn't the woman in the pretty dress. I felt so uncomfortable in that tuxedo and I had no real friends in high school. I believe I even asked if I could just try one of the girls dresses!
Another memory is from an English class, when we discussed a novell about an all-girls school and I raised my hand and said I'd desire to join one - I so strongly felt I'd belong there. I realize I was ready for transition at that time if I'd had just a little bit of support, but I didn't.

I have a video from my graduation party, which brings me to tears too. Another party, people being there to celebrate me, family, I should be happy, but when I watch it I see myself uncomfortably suited up and very alone, almost speaking with no one, while people around me were laughing and cheering. The person I've become is so much different. That makes me want to stay tracked.



Tippe

Quote from: lilacwoman on August 30, 2010, 05:05:28 PM
What I cannot grasp about detransitioners is how their family, work and social circles can accept them back and pretend they never transitioned and equally I cannot understand anyone wanting to detransition if they have come out to all these circles and lived opposite for a length of time...but if they detransition back to male then they must want to be so regardless of what excuses they put up.

They don't.

OK, in my case, there was a whole lot of friction between us, much of which had little to do with my effiminacy. My attempt to change was never mentioned either. But it was always there. A threat, hanging over me. I tried very hard to be the man they wanted me to be. But I ended up being their toy, dancing to whatever tune they played. Any false step and THAT could be brought up.

We can never turn back the clock, on any issue. Even those who decide to try to live with themselves as they are, as I have done, need to accept ourselves for what we are and other need to also. If they don't then it's time to leave.

Quote from: MaggieB on August 30, 2010, 06:51:16 PM

Actually, I would like just to be able to cuddle or hold each other or even hold hands like we used to. A caress here and there, I am physical that way but she has shut down. I wanted those things even back when I couldn't be a male in bed. She didn't want that from me after that. So we rarely ever touch but once in a while we do hug like sisters do when there is a hurt.

I'd say we are still in love but it is not anything at all like the love I once new or need now.

Oh, just to be clear, I intend to be faithful to her for the rest of my life as she will to me.

Maggie

Maggie. I understand what you mean here. What I'm saying is that this is almost exactly what happened with me.

It will take a long time for your wife to fully come round. I have to be honest with you, in my wife's case and I'm pretty sure in yours as well, what they fear is losing you to another man.

I know my wife loved me so much and still does. But from their perspective, they look at what they must accept and the fear of this process developing to the point of them being dumped, or worse, sidelined by a competitor is a lot to face up to.

I have never cheated on my wife. I made it absolutely clear that I never will.

It will take time, but eventually, she will learn to believe that and become more confident again.

Whenever I hear about someone detransitioning, it breaks my heart... simply because that person must be going through a spectacularly difficult time in their lives. :(

This is such a difficult path, and there is no one correct way to walk it. For decades now, I've grappled with my own gender incongruity, and after making up every excuse in the world to dismiss it, I am finally at peace with one simple set of ideas: I should have been a girl. I want to be a woman. I want to live the rest of my life and grow old as a woman.

Once someone has reached that point, and gone beyond it into actual transition, it must be horribly painful to go back, whatever the reason... People who detransition need support, not judgment (they may not want support from the trans community, but they need it anyway, at least in spirit).

Not to change the subject here  , but I have a weird question.Not that I would ever detransition, but has anyone who did after many years, wind up looking the same before the transition? I would guess no, but im real curious.

Angela,
The few people I've seen who detransitioned after fully transitioning did NOT look exactly the way they did before (hormones are powerful drugs).. but that's purely anecdotal on my part.

Thats what I figured, but wanted to know.

and I don't say that to be mean, it just has been my experience in terms of who I've seen after they detransitioned. I wish them nothing but contentment and happiness.. From the little I've read, it seems most who detransition Re-transition at some point. People who transition, decide it was a mistake, detransition, and stay in their "original" gender seem to be a rare breed.

Quote from: Samantha_Peterson on August 26, 2010, 10:19:59 AM
No. I could never go back to being male. It was torture to begin with. It would be even worse the second time.

agreeed!
And btw.... hormonally its a complete disaster...because you're body
is used to the estrogen....so you will go into male puberty once again when you transition back!!!!! This time with you having the knowledge of how your body can feel and how your life can be... I think it would be unbearable for me.

I don't know if, what i did counts. I didn't have any hormones or such.

I certainly didn't and don't look like I did before.

before I was full of hope an plans. All I needed was the opportunity.

After I was just a bad actor playing a part.

I don't think I could.  I had severe anxiety and depression before starting hormones.  Even if I had a choice between magically looking like the most beautiful woman in the world but having testosterone go to my brain, or looking like the ugliest but having estroge in the brain, I'd choose the estrogen.  With estrogen helping both my mind and appearance?  It's not even something I could consider stopping.  And even with estrogen and anti-androgens, I still feel like a liar when people call me male and I don't correct them.  I couldn't live the rest of my life like that.

I tried for a long time to put it out of my mind, but I've realized that I'd only detransition for something that would be worth sacrificing my life for, because that's the likely outcome.

I think many transsexual men and women don't have the same issue, or have some other mental trait that lets them endure it, and I totally respect them.  They are certainly just as transsexual as I am.  We don't all have to have the exact same experiences, after all.

Actually, I was put on notice that I couldn't detransition.  About six months in I was talking to my best male friend.  I don't know how it came up, but he told me that I better not go back because all of my friends had put a lot of effort into using my new name and new pronouns.  They'd all stuck with me through transition (and probably would have through detransition if I needed it), but he was saying it was hard enough for everyone around me the first time and they wouldn't stand for another! :)

Our transitions affect those around us too, and they don't even have the reward of becoming who they need to be.

People who need to detransition have my respect.  Transition is hard enough without having to then detransition. 

- Kate

Quote from: Angela on August 31, 2010, 06:35:11 AM
Not to change the subject here  , but I have a weird question.Not that I would ever detransition, but has anyone who did after many years, wind up looking the same before the transition? I would guess no, but im real curious.

Who cares?
But FWIW the few who made headlines in UK over detransitioning had feminised quite well and were possibly lying about detransitioning and may have still been on E to maintain the femaleness.
Logically if taking E swaps muscles for fat then removing the E will make the fatless skin to hang loose and sag and cause extreme male aging.

It's hard to know for sure unless anyone can find some photos of a person when pre-HRT, well tranisitioned and then detransitioned.  Only one I've seen pix of is Sam the Sham but he had lots of FFS so doesn't really answer the question

Quote from: K8 on August 31, 2010, 09:40:10 AM
Actually, I was put on notice that I couldn't detransition.  About six months in I was talking to my best male friend.  I don't know how it came up, but he told me that I better not go back because all of my friends had put a lot of effort into using my new name and new pronouns.  They'd all stuck with me through transition (and probably would have through detransition if I needed it), but he was saying it was hard enough for everyone around me the first time and they wouldn't stand for another! :)

Our transitions affect those around us too, and they don't even have the reward of becoming who they need to be.

People who need to detransition have my respect.  Transition is hard enough without having to then detransition. 

- Kate

Interesting you should mention that.  We have all heard stories of how a person will transition and there is always some jerkface family member who will refuse to call you by your new name or learn the proper pronouns. 

I experienced that in reverse, when I detransitioned, some of the other TS I knew refused to call me my male name or refer to me as a guy cause they "knew" it wasn't who I was.  I of course, was far less offended by this - as there is indeed some very strong part of me that identifies with being female - but I found the comparison noteworthy.

On a similar note, my mother, who had made all her passwords some derivative of my name, changed all her passwords to some derivative of my female name... then changed them back.  That woman was a saint.  In fact, it was she who named me both times.

Quote from: Angela on August 31, 2010, 06:35:11 AM
Not to change the subject here  , but I have a weird question.Not that I would ever detransition, but has anyone who did after many years, wind up looking the same before the transition? I would guess no, but im real curious.

Pictures of me before transition compared to now after I de-transitioned are apparently striking (or so I've heard).  I was far more masculine looking back before transition.  Now, while I can still pass as male (especially with facial hair) I have softer features, an hourglass body, and of course... breasts that I keep hidden.  But just judging by facial features, I've had people wonder if I was kidding them showing them pictures of me as a teen.

Quote from: spacial on August 27, 2010, 02:17:19 PM
Jerica is such a charming and beautiful person who is facing her challanges with  more strength than I had. I look at the contentment in her pretty face and know how she feels.

Thank you girl. I just do what I have to do, you know?

Quote from: Mara on August 31, 2010, 09:29:32 AM
I don't think I could.  I had severe anxiety and depression before starting hormones.  Even if I had a choice between magically looking like the most beautiful woman in the world but having testosterone go to my brain, or looking like the ugliest but having estroge in the brain, I'd choose the estrogen.  With estrogen helping both my mind and appearance?  It's not even something I could consider stopping.  And even with estrogen and anti-androgens, I still feel like a liar when people call me male and I don't correct them.  I couldn't live the rest of my life like that.

I tried for a long time to put it out of my mind, but I've realized that I'd only detransition for something that would be worth sacrificing my life for, because that's the likely outcome.

I think many transsexual men and women don't have the same issue, or have some other mental trait that lets them endure it, and I totally respect them.  They are certainly just as transsexual as I am.  We don't all have to have the exact same experiences, after all.

I feel the same like you though.

Quote from: mtfbuckeye on August 31, 2010, 06:23:51 AM
Whenever I hear about someone detransitioning, it breaks my heart... simply because that person must be going through a spectacularly difficult time in their lives. :(

This is such a difficult path, and there is no one correct way to walk it. For decades now, I've grappled with my own gender incongruity, and after making up every excuse in the world to dismiss it, I am finally at peace with one simple set of ideas: I should have been a girl. I want to be a woman. I want to live the rest of my life and grow old as a woman.

Once someone has reached that point, and gone beyond it into actual transition, it must be horribly painful to go back, whatever the reason... People who detransition need support, not judgment (they may not want support from the trans community, but they need it anyway, at least in spirit).

Here Here! It IS VERY painful to go through. When it happened to me..it took me years to finally get to start transitioning and then when I had to make the decision to stop, it nearly put  me into a severe depression. But, I cared about my kids far too much to let them go through hell. I didn't bring them into this world to be selfish. I had/have a responsibility to them. I can be selfish when they are on their own.

Yes, but you are your own person and do what makes YOU happy, is what I heard from a lot of trans friends...I will, when they leave the house, when me thinking about  me doesn't effect THEM..then I will do as I please, but until then, I have a responsibility to the two men I am raising.

Now they have left the house, on their own, living their own lives and now I get to be selfish and think about only me. And that's exactly what I'm doing...with a vengeance! =)

Absolutely no way would I go back. Not for all the money in the world.

Detransition: Vol. 1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sRmWlAACtRM#)

i could never detransition for anything.

I give my support to anyone, who is going through this.  But I would rather eat a glock than detransition.

Actually I was having thoughts about detransitioning last week...and not pleasent thoughts either. I wasn't thinking about it because I doubt I'm female or I preferred being a boy (I have absolutely no doubts about being female and I interact with the world a hell of a lot better as a girl than I ever did as a boy), but because I knew that doing so would hurt me and kill me in all likelyhood.

Yeah, last week wasn't great.

I couldnt!! lol! Just dont see no future in me being a man!

Being in a very much semi transitional state (I've told everyone that matters, everyone has seen me as a girl, but yet to change my name and take the full time plunge) I have given serious thought to not transitioning and drinking myself to death instead, I nearly succeeded in this in my twenties (not drank at all for more than eight years though) and to be honest, it was a lot easier than all of this because no-one expected anything of me, particularly not myself, with everything that comes with transition, I have to admit that it's tempting.

However, when I'm not so scared/depressed I know that transition is the only chance of a happy future, the alternative would not be pretty and there is no delusion of a happy life as a guy, for the simple reason that I'm not a guy! As people have said in this thread, the genie is out of the box and now I have accepted who I am the thought of trying to slink back into denial seems ridiculous.