Susan's Place Transgender Resources

Do any of you pre-t guys find yourselves in a situation where you can't tell how others view you.. Like they don't he or she you, or treat you in a feminie or masculine way... so you're stuck because you don't know how they see you.
Maybe in a new job your at, or a classroom where you go by your preferred name if it hasn't been legally changed. Or around a new group of friends, or at a restaurant.. Just some place public with a group of ppl or even just one.

Im kind of frustrated about it. Going by my preferred name, but not being able to tell if they see me as a masculine female, or a feminine little boy. Idk maybe im just thinking too much.

Yeah, it's happening all the time now especially meeting new people. I use my 'new' name, but my voice is a total give away (and my moobs). Sometimes i pass up untill i speak, there was an instance in a restaurant though where the waiter was like oh hello girls and boy (me and two female friends) and then he kind of made a funny face, and said 'oh girls'. I was confused as to how to react so i just smiled. Meeting new people, for some reason i just expect them to think im a guy (because of the name?) and then i'm in the situation you expressed. I'm not sure how to act because i don't know what gender they see me as yet, so i don';t know if i should open my mouth or *try* feebly to make my voice more androgynous.

Well I could go as a kid with my voice and height, I mean everyone just thinks im some 10 yr old boy..mostly everyone..
But when they she me, or I get no pronouns im like what, what is it?!
Im always being outted by my family, so if I get he'd they try to correct ppl and then I just get all red and embarrassed cause they're wrong and they don't get it.

Im like you, I avoid speaking as much as possible. But when I do, I try my best to lower it and lately I haven't been too successful. Idk if its because I get flustered or just too nervous.

recently, i had people openly discussing "no it's a guy" "i think it's a girl" "no, he's a guy....see" while i was walking by. i had others just gape at me and my girlfriend, and a teenage cashier girl at a grocery store couldn't stop giggling after i'd moved closer and said hi (because she'd apparently read me as female but when i approached she saw beard shadow and heard male pitch, and for some reason she thought it ridiculously funny). Sometimes I will start a silly conversation with whoever is accompanying me, just so those people staring at me would hear my voice ...

Oh I get this all the time. I can tell people aren't exactly sure a lot of the time. Sometimes I'm playing the part a little if need be (like in a business situation). I try to just be myself though and sometimes I look like a younger dude, sometimes I look like an effeminate dude, and sometimes I probably look more like a chick. I realized I can't make people think a certain thing a 100% of the time. Oh it also depends where I am and the crowd sometimes too. Like if I'm a rock concert, no one gives me a second look - although I think I have been hit on before by girls LOL (I'm pretty dense when it comes to that sort of thing). If I'm out shopping, sometimes I'll get a curious look if I'm in say, the women's department trying on jackets and I'm having more of a "dude day" lol. I never get a look if I'm just shopping in the men's department. Then again society seems to totally accept that - like chicks buy their guys clothes. Anyway, yeah it happens to me. The last time I really noticed it I was out running errands and decided to stop and get some lunch. It was a sit down place and I noticed that the waiter was addressing some customers with gender pronouns but specifically didn't when dealing with me. That's fine, I guess if people really don't know in their minds it's better to not make a mistake, right?

I dealt with this for the first time yesterday. I went to a theme park yesterday and it was the first time I'd really been anywhere with a ton of people around since I'd gotten my haircut. I felt a little uncomfortable because I just assumed people still saw me as female, because I'd never experienced anything different. My friend and I went to one of the game booths and I ended up winning 3 times. Then the guy running the game said "Dude, you're never gonna get a date if you keep beating all the girls." My friend had a shocked expression on her face, (I'm not out, by the way), and it took me a while to explain to her that I really didn't mind and she couldn't understand why I wasn't embarassed. Then later it happened when I bought a bottle of water and the guy said "Thank you sir, have a good day." I was smiling like an idiot. But, I could see that some people through out the day couldn't tell, and they didn't use pronouns, and I'm fine with that. Like insideontheoutside said, it's better to not make a mistake.

Yeah, I've gotten the ppl whispering and giggling debating over what gender/sex they thought I was.

And I've gotten where ppl use pronouns until it gets to me and they don't use anything. Idk, I guess id rather them do that than she me. But id still like to know their initial thought.

personally i'm used to it. ever since i was a little kid i've gotten the "is that a boy or a girl" whispers and the odd looks/confrontations in the women's bathroom. it tortured me when i was little. i wanted people to make up their minds and just approach me as SOMETHING but now i just look at it as a blessing. i mean, im not on T and i pass 98% of the time. even when i talk. ive just carried my boyish self with me i suppose. i think people questioning my identity and trying to figure me out forced me over time to lean towards one gender or another in a desperation cisfolk dont realize. so it brought out my masculinity and my identity as a guy. not sure if that makes sense......meh

Kinda depends where I am.  I think a lot of kids at my martial arts studio can tell at a non-verbal level I'm not really a "chick."  They're told to answer to me "yes ma'am" so they do, but I can kinda tell a lot of them have to remind themselves to call me by female pronouns and on a casual level, a lot of the boys, outside of class include me as "one of the guys" when they go our of their way separate themselves from girls.

A lot of times I think I pass until I talk, and sometimes it's just hit of miss.  I notice I pass a lot better when vacationing in Asia, where my sense of clothing and such doesn't push me nearly as much into the "androgynous" area... kinda makes me wanna spend a lot more kind back home.  Koreans also seem to have a much more amused reaction when they're confused by my gender like "oh, I thought you were a boy, haha well you obviously like guy stuff so let us direct you to the boy's section here."  I totally pass for a guy in Japan for some reason, but I think it may also be the culture is just so polite no ones really says anything.  Plus I refer to myself in the masculine if I introduce myself so that probably helps.  Americans just seem to get flustered and I have no idea what the thought process is when they tiptoe around me... I sometimes feel like they want to be polite and don't want to get things wrong, and others like they just have no idea what to do with me.  It's all kinds of awkward...

Then there are places like the game store, where I figured I was perceived as kind gender neutral.  I'm always in men's clothing there, but people know I'm at least biologically female.  Then recently one of the guys who's a good friend and knows I'm trans said "you know it's amazing to watch how the guys at the store flock around you when you're there" "What do you mean?" "Well, they can sense a 'chicks' in the store and they just follow you around" "What?! Who, I mean, all the chicks at the store are girly-girls, why'd they even think of me like a chick' ' I dunno, probably, cuz all the girls who come to the store are another guy's girlfriend and they're thinking oh man, that's chick's totally into the Imperial Guard just like me, and likes to talk about firearms just like me, and geeks out about nerd stuff just like me!'  'WTF!  doesn't the fact that I only ever role-play male characters give people a hint?' 'Probably not...' T-T

I feel like this often. I only ever feel better when I'm actually addressed as something, mostly male pronouns, I've yet to be addressed as "she" but the unsure looks don't help, which is why I try not to constantly look around beause I feel a lot of my worrying is just me thinking too much, like I'm expecting people to look at me unsure so that's what I end up percieving it as. Mind thing maybe.

The only time I feel embarrassed is when I'm out with my mom or sisters and they use female pronouns towards me to other people, and the person they're talking to gives a funny look because they obviously read me as male at first

I've had alot of this recently. Which, at almost 4 months on T and passing constantly and having an obviously male voice...it really got to me. Both times, at a gay bar, I had other guys ask the person sitting next to me if I was a guy or girl. This guy they asked, he's got my back so he's like uh no dude, that's a guy. I'm thinking it's partly cause I shaved my head. It made me extremely dysphoric though. My best friend said that he thinks they're crazy though..so that made me feel a bit better. Plus, I just found out that polish guys I guess tend to have higher cheekbones, which I have, so I can always blame it on that. There's a drag queen I know who people would possibly question to be a transman. She's part polish. So there's my honest excuse.

I get a bit of confusion around the place. It sorta depends on the situation and who I'm with. When I was really early transition and not really out, these girls (one of whom I found out later was a mtf) asked if I was a guy or a girl, in front of heaps of people.  It was kinda cool because I'd been introduced by my girl name earlier.  I just "both" and laughed.   Sometimes I have no idea what gender people think I am. Passing at 70-80% IRL, but still get maam now and then.   Recently I was getting a drink at the shop up the road and the guy behind the counter goes "hey boy!" and then corrected himself and got really confused when I talked.  I was like NO I LOVE IT.

What else... milk the looking like a little boy thing - I get into stuff at child's fare sometimes, I get my mate to pretend he's my older brother lol lol. 

Quote from: elvistears on August 31, 2010, 11:51:50 PM
What else... milk the looking like a little boy thing - I get into stuff at child's fare sometimes, I get my mate to pretend he's my older brother lol lol.

Haha my parents milk it for me, kids menus, kid tickets, half the price. I fit into kids shirts, which are way cheaper, so that's how I take advantage of looking/sounding/being the size of a kid.

Its weird, I get male 70%, unsure 25%, and female 5%..unless im at a place where age matters, like 18+ only then I harldy ever get read as a girl.

Ehh. It kills me that I don't know if I pass or not. I think I pass, but as soon as I talk I either get a weird look or a "sorry /love/darl/sweetie"

I wonder all the time, and I get the "Are you a boy or a girl?" all the time, mostly from kids 13 or under. I've had a little confusion from adults too but where I live most people don't just walk up to someone and ask that question if they are curious about it.

I try to just pretend like everyone who is wondering eventually decides I'm a guy. Once I have to talk though, it kind of ruins it :(

It happens to me a lot.
Usually I don't pay attention to those people.
When I was younger it bothered me a lot, but now I just don't care.
Few months ago I was in a elevator with some old lady and suddenly she asked me "Are you a boy or a girl?" That's the only time I remember that someone asked me that. Maybe when i was younger, but I don't remember any more.

I can't WAIT for people to start questioning whether i'm a girl. When i was a little kid i had this bowl cut and sometimes would get referred to as my parents' son, but right now i look completely like a chick. I will be so happy if someone can't tell, it means i'm getting somewhere. Of course, it's different for me because i haven't started my transition. Once/if i take T it would probably get annoying being read as a girl. Actually i don't get ma'amed or anything on a regular basis, never really have. Maybe it's just that folks around here don't tend to use pronouns and stuff when they're talking to people. Or maybe i'm not too good about noticing what strangers refer to me as. Or maybe i just don't go out much. ???

The other day though i was out with a couple guys, was binding & wearing a hat & unisex clothes, and the guys were talking to this girl about what she'd think of them if she had just passed them on the street or whatever, and then one of the guys goes, 'What about her?' and gestures to me. And she just like freezes, and i imagined her thinking 'Oh i thought that was a guy.' Probably just a fantasy but it was a nice thought. :P

Point: i'd rather people not be able to tell than always read me as 100% female.

Well, I look forward to the opportunities to be mistaken as a guy.  I am totally pre - everything.  I have been wearing a binder for about 6 months.  I haven't started counseling or T or anything.

I was just mistaken today at the store and it made me feel good and smile.

Quote from: Jamie on September 02, 2010, 07:52:52 AM
It happens to me a lot.
Usually I don't pay attention to those people.
When I was younger it bothered me a lot, but now I just don't care.
Few months ago I was in a elevator with some old lady and suddenly she asked me "Are you a boy or a girl?" That's the only time I remember that someone asked me that. Maybe when i was younger, but I don't remember any more.

I gotta say, I just don't get the people who come right out and ask that. I mean, I get it if they're a small child or if they're a teenager that's purposely trying to be rude or make someone feel uncomfortable (which is LAME, but I still see it happen) but really, what does it matter to them? Are they planning on sleeping with you? Does your ambiguity just rock their little boats so much that they can't make it through their day without knowing the answer to that burning question of, do you have a penis or a vagina (which honestly is what they're asking - which if you think about it that way is even more rude).

Quote from: Femboy on September 01, 2010, 12:36:40 AM
Haha my parents milk it for me, kids menus, kid tickets, half the price. I fit into kids shirts, which are way cheaper, so that's how I take advantage of looking/sounding/being the size of a kid.

Its weird, I get male 70%, unsure 25%, and female 5%..unless im at a place where age matters, like 18+ only then I harldy ever get read as a girl.

Ha, it's handy right! Early in the year I went to Denny's with some friends who are all much bigger than me.  There was an elderly man showing us to the table and I asked him for the kids menu, which I realise now they do no give you unless they think you're under 10. So he made a big deal of giving it to me and talking to me like I was a kid and I thought he was just joking, but I now realise he fully thought I was ten.  I've never managed to get the kids menu there since though! And it sucks cos I really like the junior cheeseburger.

Matt, id hate to not get read 100% while on T. I think that's when it'll really get to me.

Quote from: insideontheoutside on September 02, 2010, 02:25:11 PM
Are they planning on sleeping with you? Does your ambiguity just rock their little boats so much that they can't make it through their day without knowing the answer to that burning question of, do you have a penis or a vagina (which honestly is what they're asking - which if you think about it that way is even more rude).

Im not sure why people wonder so much..but people care..I guess they want to see how you fit in society, or how they should treat you..and your answer changes the way they view you. I agree that it should only matter to those you're intimate with..but in a sense, most people are asking if you were born with a penis or a vagina.

Elvistears,
Haha this one restaurant I go to always asks me if I want the kids menu :/ I mean its good cause they're cheaper and smaller meals, I don't eat much, but I hate being seen as 10 and under.
You should try somewhere else, or take a kid to order it for you! Or take me and ill trade you meals haha!
:D

Quote from: Femboy on September 03, 2010, 12:48:03 AM
I agree that it should only matter to those you're intimate with..but in a sense, most people are asking if you were porn with a penis or a vagina.

heheh... porn.

/contribution

Lol my baddd.

Quote from: Matt Chase on September 03, 2010, 07:26:20 AM

heheh... porn.

/contribution

Hahaha oh wow. porn on the brain.

You know what --- Yeah... I just recently started school, the reason behind my absence >>;; , and I've introduced myself as ALUN, but my teachers INSIST on calling me by my birth given name. It bothers me because those who DO call me by Alun seem to say it questionably and such, as if they can't tell whether I'm a girl or boy with slightly boobish pecs XDDD -- It's weird because I don't know if I should maybe SAY something...? Or maybe perhaps write an Email to each teacher..? I know I've had to explain the basic of "FTM" to atleast 4 or 5 people now.... But I really need everyone to know about me because I'm a lot more comfortable with the name "Alun" than I am with my usual nickname "Nami". I know, quite happily I should add, that my girlfriend of nearly 11 months, has started calling me Alun~ <<33

This... probably hasn't helped XDDD


Alun

@ Alun, I think I would be a good idea to send a polite email to some of your teachers. When I was in school, I found that when the teachers started calling me Liam the other students caught on.

About the topic, I think that people just need to know because the first thing anyone notices about anyone else is if they are male or female.  Then they base all their interactions with you on that initial judgement. (or hopefully you have been introduced as male). A lot of people will be put off if they don't know how to relate to an individual and feel uncomfortable. That first interaction is very important because once the person as a "female" mental cue in their mind it's going to be a lot harder for them you call you "he".

Quote from: LeeIam on September 04, 2010, 12:43:56 AM
@ Alun, I think I would be a good idea to send a polite email to some of your teachers. When I was in school, I found that when the teachers started calling me Liam the other students caught on.

I would -- But I honestly have no Idea what to put and/or write.... Which is another reason many of the students haven't caught on, even though I have 7 classes, I only have 4 teachers *Not counting the temporary substitute for math >>*

Thanks LeeIam~


Alun

Quote from: Alun C on September 04, 2010, 09:38:58 AM
I would -- But I honestly have no Idea what to put and/or write.... Which is another reason many of the students haven't caught on, even though I have 7 classes, I only have 4 teachers *Not counting the temporary substitute for math >>*

Thanks LeeIam~


Alun

Hm, i wonder what you do put in an e-mail like that... Normally i'm really good at making up polite messages but it's not really the most common situation. Maybe something like

Hello Mr./Ms./Mrs. ____,
I am a student in your __ hour ____ class(es). Though my name is listed on the roster as _____ _____, I prefer to be called Alun. I would greatly appreciate it if you would be willing to adjust your seating chart/attendance list to reflect this, and refer to me by my chosen name, as well as using male pronouns when talking to or about me. I sincerely apologize for not letting you know this sooner [but it is a somewhat sensitive topic and I didn't want to make the classroom atmosphere awkward.] Thank you so much.
Sincerely,
Alun C. 

That's probably what i'd do. The bit in brackets is something i might put but it may not apply to you. You don't need too much explanation, just straight-up tell them what you want and the teachers should be willing to do it as long as you ask politely. The nice thing is that you only have to write one e-mail, then you can send it out to all your teachers, all you have to do is change the teacher's name and the hours you have with them. You probably don't want to use that exact wording, when i write formally it tends to be a little flowery :P If you want to add more detail you should, but you can use that as a reference, those are just the basic things they'll need to know. Good luck!

Quote from: Matt Chase on September 04, 2010, 11:30:41 AM

Hm, i wonder what you do put in an e-mail like that... Normally i'm really good at making up polite messages but it's not really the most common situation. Maybe something like

Hello Mr./Ms./Mrs. ____,
I am a student in your __ hour ____ class(es). Though my name is listed on the roster as _____ _____, I prefer to be called Alun. I would greatly appreciate it if you would be willing to adjust your seating chart/attendance list to reflect this, and refer to me by my chosen name, as well as using male pronouns when talking to or about me. I sincerely apologize for not letting you know this sooner [but it is a somewhat sensitive topic and I didn't want to make the classroom atmosphere awkward.] Thank you so much.
Sincerely,
Alun C. 

That's probably what i'd do. The bit in brackets is something i might put but it may not apply to you. You don't need too much explanation, just straight-up tell them what you want and the teachers should be willing to do it as long as you ask politely. The nice thing is that you only have to write one e-mail, then you can send it out to all your teachers, all you have to do is change the teacher's name and the hours you have with them. You probably don't want to use that exact wording, when i write formally it tends to be a little flowery :P If you want to add more detail you should, but you can use that as a reference, those are just the basic things they'll need to know. Good luck!

*extreme fan girl ahhh* THIS. IS. AWESOME~

My Newspaper/AP English teacher will probably be a bit stressed but still understand. She knows me well enough to know that I get what she needs done. My yearbook/APUSH *US history* teacher slightly understood so an email should help clarify that~ Yay -- My Art 2D/3D teacher is amazing so she'll definitely be cool with it -- Annnd my german teacher .... ho ho ho-- He loves me and my group cause we're tarded but do amazing XDDDD

Thank you so much Matt~ :DDDD
( AND LeeIam, and Femboy for asking~)

<3 Alun

No problem. Good luck again, tell us how it goes.

Quote from: LeeIam on September 04, 2010, 12:43:56 AM
About the topic, I think that people just need to know because the first thing anyone notices about anyone else is if they are male or female.  Then they base all their interactions with you on that initial judgement. (or hopefully you have been introduced as male). A lot of people will be put off if they don't know how to relate to an individual and feel uncomfortable. That first interaction is very important because once the person as a "female" mental cue in their mind it's going to be a lot harder for them you call you "he".

This is true, once the first impression is set into the mind its hard to change it especially if its how they see you genderwise.

This happens to me a lot actually especially right after I get my haircut. Usaully I'll be at a store or somewhere and when I go to check out they say something like "Thank you-" and then give me a blank look because they don't know weather to call me sir or ma'am. People seem to of gotten better about calling me sir since I've moved though I think a lot of it is I'm a lot more confident and sure of myself now and I don't feel like I have to play girl because I'm not in a super small super dangerous for trans or anyone out of the ordinary place.

I've also started wearing this watch my brother gave me as a going away present which seems to help me pass o.o I didn't think something that small could do so much. But I'm not going to complain and it's a very spiffy watch o.o much better then the yugioh one I had for most of my existence XD

Had a weird experience at work where my manager and I were giving a trial class to probably nine kids.  At the end one of the mothers came up and asked my manager if we had any female instructors working there, to which he answers "well, other than Ms. Ahn (gestures towards me, I'm standing right next to him) the owner of the school is a mother of two." 
Now the weirdness is usually when I'm teaching a class of 4-6 year-olds I use my "excited, approachable, happy" voice which is anything but masculine, as opposed to my "if kicks don't get higher I'm ordering more push-ups" voice which has passed as being a guy's voice.  There is no way this woman, who's been watching us run this class like a hawk didn't hear me at one point or another saying something to the effect of "try one more time, you can do it!  Alright, high-five."  So part of me is thinking, was that supposed to be some sort of jab at me, or have my mannerisms come to the point of where I just appear like a teenage boy with the occasional high pitched voice thing still happening.