Susan's Place Transgender Resources

Ugh..

  I was referred to my (former) psych by my therapist; She said that  he had treated Transsexual patients before. I should have walked away after the first appointment when he pointed out everything in my experience that he perceived as "more of a guy thing." While talking about my substance abuse I said that I liked beer... he said that I should like sweeter drinks; I talked about my persistent suicidal thoughts and he stated that, "Women generally choose less lethal means of killing themselves."
  I hoped that we would eventually develop a relationship and discuss my desire for surgery... He seemed to think that my being Transsexual had nothing to do with my depression. He also seemed unnecessarily concerned with my breast development... I don't see how whether I was wearing a bra or not had anything to do with my treatment, but he asked. He gave me the creeps.
  I didn't see him for awhile; I attended an outpatient treatment program for depression and anxiety a few months ago. Thanks to some very caring staff and a superlative treatment program, I now feel much more equipped to deal with life in general. I'm off meds and feel better than I have in years! I made an appointment with the very peculiar Dr. Kisch to ask if he would compose the very short letter that would allow me to obtain a passport with an "F" instead of an "M." He stated, "I balk at your request." He suggested that I was abusing his services. He stated that, even though I reported feeling well, I should be on medication. He was pompous, condescending and generally didn't seem to give a damn about the state of my well being.... only that I was apparently asking for something so unreasonable.... and it violated his supreme authority as a doctor.  I fired him.
  Thankfully, my therapist has given her endorsement and is currently composing my authorization letter for surgery... I'll have the "F"  .... it'll just have to wait a little longer.  :)
   This was my fourth psychiatrist.... They were all freaking creepy! I'm left with the feeling that their training somehow leaves them incapable of compassion. The one before refused to acknowledge my Transsexuality and perceived it as a lifestyle choice.  I'm DONE with psychiatry! I'm angry, dissapointed and frustrated..

..........Just had to vent

I've heard so many people discuss how their psychiatrists have a set view of how a woman should be. It's like a natal female tomboy can get away with being androgynous yet we have to take it to the extreme to what? Over compensate? ppfftt. I pass the best when I go tomboy mode, go figure.
I have a psychiatrist appointment in four hours to discuss my srs referral. But I don't know I've only been twice before and he seemed pretty cool.. though he hassled me about my work or lack of. hhmmm that's right only TS suffer from employment issues.. and therefore I fail RLT because of that... hhmmm yeah right. Actually I'm confident he won't hold it against me, though he could.
There are so many double standards attached to their hoops we must jump through. You try to be honest yet they use it against you... it makes you wonder if one should just feed them the answers they want to hear :S

Well scripted ma love...

And sorry that you had to go through all that BS JessicaR....

I dumped a UK GP doctor for his weird interest in my physicality.... and as a policy now since I only have female doc's.....

My current one's called Dr Kate Dick.....dontchajustluvit!

Anyways I did at least three trick cyclists, most of whom I couldn't click with.... and found that the key Kafkaesque process seemed more about 55 mins ad infinitum....at £95 (great business plan ...eh?)...until meeting with and sticking with and working for the London Institute...

Under the supervision of and as a patient of the much wrongly maligned (Russell Reid).... what a gem of a man!

Try to fret not too much.... living the 'condition' in one sense is actually what its all about....

Hence action > than words....

Where as talking constant b#ll#cks < less than physical manifestation...

This is why hormones as a diagnostic tool still has validity in my view....but don't let the buggers grind you down...dust yerself off and tomorrows always another day...(and some as you well know be wonderful!)

Quote from: Muffin on September 08, 2010, 10:33:57 PM
I've heard so many people discuss how their psychiatrists have a set view of how a woman should be. It's like a natal female tomboy can get away with being androgynous yet we have to take it to the extreme to what? Over compensate? ppfftt. I pass the best when I go tomboy mode, go figure.
I have a psychiatrist appointment in four hours to discuss my srs referral. But I don't know I've only been twice before and he seemed pretty cool.. though he hassled me about my work or lack of. hhmmm that's right only TS suffer from employment issues.. and therefore I fail RLT because of that... hhmmm yeah right. Actually I'm confident he won't hold it against me, though he could.
There are so many double standards attached to their hoops we must jump through. You try to be honest yet they use it against you... it makes you wonder if one should just feed them the answers they want to hear :S

I entirely agree, I have encountered exactly that with all of the 3 psychiatrists I have seen. And you know what, I don't think they really have any good understanding of us at all. They don't see us as women with a problem, they see us as men with a problem. For which they believe they understand the solution far better than us.

They have it in their head that they know everything because they went to a school, and we know nothing despite it being our whole lives and unlike them, don't get to ever go home at the end of the day and take a break from.

I wish I had good things to say about psychiatrists, but all I've encountered from them is suspicion, mistrust, disrespect, power trips, ignorance, and deceptiveness.

I've had the idiot shrinks and heard all their crap too...and had some good ones who know what makes TS tick.
but the only one I see now is a lovely Asian guy who knows what is needed and is intent on helping me get it.
my lawyers are working up to big lawsuit against the one who ignored the HBSoC and set my transition back three years.

On the other hand I do agree with those shrinks who say a MtF should show a lot of femaleness which is basically doing RLE? 
Creating manginas in countries with state funded NHS is not good policy. 

Quote from: Cruelladeville on September 08, 2010, 10:38:08 PM
Under the supervision of and as a patient of the much wrongly maligned (Russell Reid).... what a gem of a man!

And a very interesting drinking buddy and holiday companion too. I think it's now pretty much of an open secret that he is probably my second best friend in the world after Alison. (make of which what you will ;)) Over the years that Alison and I have been going out with him as a three, and oft times a foursome he has given us some really fascinating insights into the way that some of the medical fraternity see us.

The thing is since the days of John Randall and Don Montgomery there have always been those who think that if they could just hit on the right formula we could be cured without the need for surgery.

With Randall it was being a bit of a bully and generally a member of the awkward squad. With Don Montgomery (who Alison saw after Ashley Robin retired halfway through her treatment) it was a case of dangling the promise of action always just a few months away whilst never actually delivering. Thankfully for her, she saw though him and told him straight that unless he honored Ashley Robin's already written referral she wasn't going to waste anymore time seeing him! Two months later he suddenly went on holiday and she was on the operating table.

The thing is you have to play the shrinks at their own game. While they are assessing you, you need to be similarly weighing them up and not be too shy in drawing a line in the sand if they don't seem to be taking you where you need to go.

That's also one reason why I simply don't use our NHS and if I had my way I would radically restructure it so that the patient controlled their own health budget. When you control your own health funding (which of course as a private patient you do) then it is clear that you are the master and the doctor is the servant.

That's what you need to get to with the shrinks. You have to somehow get to the point where you, and not they, control the game. Not easy I know, but it can be done.

Hi there,

Sorry to hear of your experience, but keep focused. I must say though that I have had brilliant discussion and outcome with my psychiatrists, but then I am mad, lol. Na, not really. The only problem area I've had is the GID clinic and their crap administration and secretarial skills. I nearly lost out on funding because they had put the wrong date for my RLT to the PCT for funding and was refused first time. I was fuming with them and the PCT because it contradicted my second opinion psychiatric report which had the correct RLT dates.

Glad you are progressing even though perhaps at a slower pace than you would want, but believe me it feels a slow process at the start but at the end of the process its like hyperspace speed.

Stardust   

Jenny and others are of course totally correct.

But medical fields specialize,  I could make many medical jokes at this point but I wont. Psychiatrists are the same. There are two in Adelaide who are specialized in GID, you can get referred  to any one you wish but the others may not have an interest or an understanding of GID. They will treat you as a patient with unknown pathology.  I heard of one who had his, hopefully first and last MtF,  prescribe, "Take up manly pursuits, running and footy, if you have these fantasies have a cold shower to clear the mind" . He was only recently registered (past five years). So the level of understanding you obtain can be very variable.   

I also agree with lilacwomen, there are guidelines, but some Psych's have never heard of them, because it isn't an area of interest to them.

Cindy

Funny you mention poor secretarial skills. I just got back from my meeting (which was a success) and my old name was still in their database. o_0
So now I'll have to go back and get them to reprint out my receipt so I an claim medicare back in my name, not a name that doesn't appear on my card. Same thing happened with my endo.. you'd think with so many people coming through that change their names that they'd adapt. :S
I saw two while I was in the waiting room that couldn't find a file because one of them had changed the folder view and moved it out of alphabetical order..it took them ages to figure it out ...der. lol. Ok now I'm officially ranting. *cans it*. :P

In my time in Susans' I've read a number of people talking about the progress they are making. For some, it seem to be almost plain sailing, for other a rather more bumpy ride. I wonder how many have simply been thrown out at the first enquiry.

I recall, in the early 80s, think it was 1981, there was a program on the TV documenting the transision of one person. She had the complete support of her family, especially her sisters and her employer. That, basically, was the program.

To cut a long story short, she moved and her new Dr refused to prescribe any medications. This young woman then appeared on a discussion program presented by a woman called Dr Mirium Stoppard, who told her, (literally), Drs got you into this mess, they should see it through.

In my own case, I blotted my copy book when I was 16, by having the temerity to make a complaint. I recall, about 16 years later, while I was a nurse, I went to see my then GP for something. He went away to check my casenotes for something. When he came back his personality had completely changed. I went from being his friend to garbage that needed to leave.

I'm sure most of the others here would never be as arrogant as I was to dare to question or even suggest that a Dr could do any wrong.

We are living with the consequences of creating a profession with ecclesiastical mystique. Even criticising is socially unacceptable. Someone I know, a few years ago, wrote a strongly worded letter, complaining about a Dr.. A daylater, two young policemen ambushed that person in the street, told them publically, they were assessing them under the mental health act, (which was nothing more than a stupid threat), then cautioned them.

So making a complaint can now have you arrested.

I have heard that there are many who feel very agreaved by the way they have been treated. Relatives being killed, children being sexually assaulted, inappropriate or incompetant treatment.

There are no outlets or facilities to make complaints. Dissatisfied patients are irrational or trouble makers seeking profit. In the late 70s, there was a small movement demanding that a complaints process be established. The response was that Drs would be spending all their time dealing with complaints!!!!!

My fear is that, eventually, the angry people are going to start contacting each other. In the case of the UK for example, if that is only 1% of the population, that amounts to 700,000. There are going to be a lot of Drs getting hurt.

I have to say, I will never be violent with anyone. But if I saw such a group, I wouldn't feel inclined to defend any Dr. They've brought this on themselves. The innocent Drs are equally guilty by their refusal to attack the guilty.

In the UK, if you even mention the name Dr Shipman in the presence of any Drs you are likely to have serious problems.

I'm really pleased for those here who have been treated positively and respectfully by these public servants. But to be honest, it's just luck.

Quote from: lilacwoman on September 09, 2010, 03:14:37 AM
I do agree with those shrinks who say a MtF should show a lot of femaleness which is basically doing RLE? 
Creating manginas in countries with state funded NHS is not good policy.

If an MTF person plans to live as a butch lesbian, then her RLE should involve living like that, not adhering to some artificail female stereotypes.  And I hope you are not advocating withholding surgery from such a person on the basis that she will be a "Mangina."  Please tell me that's not what you meant.

Quote from: spacial on September 09, 2010, 05:28:33 AM
In my time in Susans' I've read a number of people talking about the progress they are making. For some, it seem to be almost plain sailing, for other a rather more bumpy ride. I wonder how many have simply been thrown out at the first enquiry.

I recall, in the early 80s, think it was 1981, there was a program on the TV documenting the transision of one person. She had the complete support of her family, especially her sisters and her employer. That, basically, was the program.

That was I think George into Julia made by my very good friend David Pearson, with whom I have worked at the BBC.

Quote from: spacial on September 09, 2010, 05:28:33 AM
To cut a long story short, she moved and her new Dr refused to prescribe any medications. This young woman then appeared on a discussion program presented by a woman called Dr Mirium Stoppard, who told her, (literally), Drs got you into this mess, they should see it through.

yeah John Randall could be like that. I was under him too in 1976 - it wasn't a happy time for either of us.

Quote from: spacial on September 09, 2010, 05:28:33 AM
In my own case, I blotted my copy book when I was 16, by having the temerity to make a complaint. I recall, about 16 years later, while I was a nurse, I went to see my then GP for something. He went away to check my casenotes for something. When he came back his personality had completely changed. I went from being his friend to garbage that needed to leave.

I'm sure most of the others here would never be as arrogant as I was to dare to question or even suggest that a Dr could do any wrong.

We are living with the consequences of creating a profession with ecclesiastical mystique. Even criticising is socially unacceptable. Someone I know, a few years ago, wrote a strongly worded letter, complaining about a Dr.. A daylater, two young policemen ambushed that person in the street, told them publically, they were assessing them under the mental health act, (which was nothing more than a stupid threat), then cautioned them.

So making a complaint can now have you arrested.

I have heard that there are many who feel very agreaved by the way they have been treated. Relatives being killed, children being sexually assaulted, inappropriate or incompetant treatment.

There are no outlets or facilities to make complaints. Dissatisfied patients are irrational or trouble makers seeking profit. In the late 70s, there was a small movement demanding that a complaints process be established. The response was that Drs would be spending all their time dealing with complaints!!!!!

My fear is that, eventually, the angry people are going to start contacting each other. In the case of the UK for example, if that is only 1% of the population, that amounts to 700,000. There are going to be a lot of Drs getting hurt.

I have to say, I will never be violent with anyone. But if I saw such a group, I wouldn't feel inclined to defend any Dr. They've brought this on themselves. The innocent Drs are equally guilty by their refusal to attack the guilty.

In the UK, if you even mention the name Dr Shipman in the presence of any Drs you are likely to have serious problems.

I'm really pleased for those here who have been treated positively and respectfully by these public servants. But to be honest, it's just luck.

It is indeed - but also people have to accept that with something like this it is so far outside the experience of most people that you do have to take a degree of personal responsibility for your own choices.

I am implacably opposed to those few who have surgery, and then, as happened to my own dear friend Russell, try to sue the shrink for failing to stop them. The trouble is for every trans patient who is damaged by a doctor who wrongly allows them to progress there are another ten of us who are equally damaged by doctors who try to protect us from ourselves, so sometimes I do feel sorry for the poor doctors who, in the absence of a proper and reliable diagnostic test are in a bit of a no win situation with us.

So yes I agree there needs to be more openness to questioning on the part of the medics, but also it would help a lot if we the patients, were to accept that Doctors are not gods. They are not infallible, and so sometimes we have to be prepared to take responsibility ourselves and relieve them of the burden of making that judgement call.

I'm still shocked at how many incompetent therapists there are out there.  My dad hated "shrinks".  He said they all have mental problems and that leads them to study psychiatry to find out what's wrong with them.  They eventually make that their profession because they are forever working on their problems.  Instead of finding the source of their problems, they project their problems on their patients, who end up more messed up than when they came in.

I never bought my dad's perspective but, when I read about a lousy therapist, there are times I wonder if my dad may have been right about at least some of them.

lols you pretty much just described this film...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shrink (film) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shrink_%28film%29)
It's really good I watched it with my parents one night a few months back. They didn't really dig it but I loved it :P
I also love the HBO series "In Treatment". *shrugs*.

Quote from: rejennyrated on September 09, 2010, 08:08:05 AM
So yes I agree there needs to be more openness to questioning on the part of the medics, but also it would help a lot if we the patients, were to accept that Doctors are not gods. They are not infallible, and so sometimes we have to be prepared to take responsibility ourselves and relieve them of the burden of making that judgement call.

Bingo! Doctors are not gods, nor does medical science have all the answers. Anyone who thinks differently is deluded. I also strongly believe that many here have some interesting ideas as to who and what a psychiatrist is.. There also seems to be a little confusion as to what a "therapist" is, it could be a psychiatrist, or it could be a psychologist, or simply someone "trained" in "counselling". I recently saw one US member stating that their psychiatrist was underqualified, whilst saying that the psychiatrist had an MD and a PhD..  :o They don't come much better qualified than that.. 

Quote from: Julie Marie on September 09, 2010, 08:18:31 AM
I'm still shocked at how many incompetent therapists there are out there.  My dad hated "shrinks".  He said they all have mental problems and that leads them to study psychiatry to find out what's wrong with them.  They eventually make that their profession because they are forever working on their problems.  Instead of finding the source of their problems, they project their problems on their patients, who end up more messed up than when they came in.

I never bought my dad's perspective but, when I read about a lousy therapist, there are times I wonder if my dad may have been right about at least some of them.

I think he was. I know several shrinks on a personal friendship basis and all of them would agree with his analysis. Indeed one of them once told me that exact same thing. His exact words were "to be a good psychiatrist one needs first to be a little crazy oneself." John Randall was famously reputed to have been a ->-bleeped-<-.

But doctors are only human. Alison and I had a close personal friendship with John Money. Now he is another one who, through one BIG and very high profile mistake, got vilified and crucified. I'm not defending his actions. Yes his theory and practice was wrong. In his later life, and in private, he was the first to admit it. He was also underneath it all a very sweet man with problems of his own with which he battled daily. He was haunted by the mistake he had made and I felt very sorry for him, even when he did once half seriously propose marriage to Alison! :o So I suppose what I think is that sometimes we need to have compassion for psychiatrists because they often have their problems too.
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm5.static.flickr.com%2F4132%2F4973475041_274b167d76_b.jpg&hash=7cfd152ad646b964888bb53b6475f2cd9c439e5b)
Alison getting up close and personal with John Money.

I had a bad GP experience 3 years ago this is actually digging up some bad upsetting memories. I got pretty close to transitioning then but fell short because a doctor tripped me at the first hurdle... I finally got the courage to tell someone and then I got shot down because of my nervousness at the time. I mentioned it here briefly when it happened but was too torn up at the time to elaborate much.

Quote from: 'Pebbles'
February 11, 2008, 10:11:06 pm'
It is as I thought... So I went to see my GP as it's a prerequisite here in the UK, I told him what I thought, Specifically about GID bear in mind I've only seen this man once before and that was so he could give me a meningitis vaccination.

Now remeber this guy has seen my arm. When he gave me said vaccination he also saw my arm which is webbed with scar formation as I've been self harming (nearly completely unknown) since I was 13. (I'm almost 21 now)

Anyways yeah he was unwilling to write a referral to a GID specialist he however "Advised" that I talk to a councilor about depression and I ought to put this out of my mind finding a better hobby.

I honestly have always had low expectations. But this kinda confirmed what I knew... The only way I can possibly walk this path is if I have every ounce of strength at my disposal because the very system is designed to tire me out put me on trial and repel me.

I think I know what your likely to say... Strengthen up and try again right new doctor and such?
Well I cannot. Not now when I'm in bits.

I was downtrodden at the time... but today I'm furious in retrospect at my situation, it took nearly everything I had to say something to him then just to get dismissed out of hand.
So yeah needless to say I have differing views from most of you when it comes to the opinion of "medical professionals" and self-medication for this reason.
I'm unlikely to forgive anytime soon for the two extra years of hell and they were some of the worst.

Quote from: glendagladwitch on September 09, 2010, 08:01:46 AM
If an MTF person plans to live as a butch lesbian, then her RLE should involve living like that, not adhering to some artificail female stereotypes.  And I hope you are not advocating withholding surgery from such a person on the basis that she will be a "Mangina."  Please tell me that's not what you meant.

manginas aren't she's they are he's

Quote from: kelly_aus on September 09, 2010, 08:34:43 AM
Bingo! Doctors are not gods, nor does medical science have all the answers.

I understand the points made, both by yourself and rejennyrated.

My post was a little off topic but I made it because I think it illustrates the point. That while Drs continue to surround themselves with a wall of inscrutablity, both for themselves and each other, they are putting themselves at risk.

The issue with jenny's friend, Russell, is not relevant to the situation. It is the numerous cases of quite blaitent incompetance and grossly unprofessional behaviour that are.

Ignorance may appear to be acceptable. In reality it is inexcusable. You ask me to service your car. Your brakes fail. I am not a mechanic and know nothing about brakes. I am ignorant.

But the seriousness of the current situation is more clearly demonstrated by other examples I gave, sexual assault, even of children, killing of patients, inappropriate drug therapy.

The young transgendered woman, who was refused the necessary medicines in the early 80, could suffer serious consequences. The humiliation of this woman on the TV, by Dr Mirium Stoppard was inexcusable. That she had previously featured in a separate doumentary is irrelevant.

What this demonstrates and what I am suggesting, is that we must be very careful with these people. They have the facilities, skills and resources to deliver benefits to many. But the reality is they are a profession driven by egos.

Most, having failed to make the grade to be surgeons are especially ego driven.

To these people is granted the authority to detain any of us, with no evidence. To alter our body chemistry and even destroy parts of our brains.

This profession is playing a dangerous game. It will, almost certainly, blow up in many of their faces. But in the immediate term, we need to tread very carefully.

Quote from: rejennyrated on September 09, 2010, 03:43:38 AM
The thing is since the days of John Randall and Don Montgomery there have always been those who think that if they could just hit on the right formula we could be cured without the need for surgery.
...
With Don Montgomery (who Alison saw after Ashley Robin retired halfway through her treatment) it was a case of dangling the promise of action always just a few months away whilst never actually delivering.

That's what they do in Denmark. They have told me they are much inspired by English doctors too. Hmm, know I know who!
Since only one clinic is allowed to threat transsexuals here people can't just go somewhere else. Alot of people have given up because they weren't supported even after years, and years of observation. One published case took 25 years before her surgery was carried out and another took 18. They refuse to tell the politicians how many years an average evaluation is, but it's definately way longer than the two years reguired by our law.

Of course they never made any research as to how the drop-outs manage life, but I doubt any one actually quit living as transgendered after a rejection. When they don't support or maybe even reject transformation - sometimes on grounds of poor social functioning - they are not making people quit their transformations, but rather they take away the support from those people who would need it the most!


Tippe

Quote from: Tippe on September 09, 2010, 12:21:56 PM
That's what they do in Denmark. They have told me they are much inspired by English doctors too. Hmm, now I know who!

Very probably so John Randall practiced from the mid 60s' to about 1983 Don Montgomery from 1987 to about 1997.

I saw Randall in 1976 - but made no real progress until the mid 1980's by when he was thankfully history.

More recently I gather things are slightly better at CXH anyway although it remains the case in the UK that if you want to get rapid progress private treatment, if you can afford it, remains the best option.

Quote from: lilacwoman on September 09, 2010, 10:03:43 AM
manginas aren't she's they are he's

so you define mangina to be an MTF who gets and then regrets surgery?

Quote from: glendagladwitch on September 09, 2010, 02:24:19 PM
so you define mangina to be an MTF who gets and then regrets surgery?

I actually read that to understand they're MTF physically but not mentally... ?? My 2p

Quote from: rejennyrated on September 09, 2010, 01:06:38 PM
Very probably so John Randall practiced from the mid 60s' to about 1983 Don Montgomery from 1987 to about 1997.

I saw Randall in 1976 - but made no real progress until the mid 1980's by when he was thankfully history.

More recently I gather things are slightly better at CXH anyway although it remains the case in the UK that if you want to get rapid progress private treatment, if you can afford it, remains the best option.

Hi Jenny,

I know I've had my ups and downs with my clinics but my transition took just over three years from the time of first appointment to GRS. I guess that's kind of fast tracking here in the UK on the NHS, lol.

Stardust

Hi Jessica,

Muffin has a good point. Something I don't understand is how a person can think that things as liking beer is something exclusively reserved for men?
So basically he is judging you according to his personal idea of femininity. That is kind of close minded for a psychiatrist, don't you think?

All in all I have very mixed feelings about psychiatrists. Because of my profession I have visited plenty of them as part of a selection procedure for job applications.
I don't like how they try to grasp someones personality from just an hour and a half worth of information. One was particularly interested in possible near death experiences  I had ???

Psychiatrist are not perfect (like the rest of humanity). One person may like you, another may dislike you. Personal opinion is still a factor in their conclusions.

It's that RLT thing I swear, it is a structure that doesn't allow for individuality. They have an idea of the gender roles, expectations and stereotypes that a lot of them possibly get too focused on.
I guess they have to make sure that you're going to blend in with society well enough to live a happy life and not have any regrets because you can't pass.
I wouldn't be surprised if they let the pretty ones straight though no questions asked but the ones that physically have more uphill battles have to jump through more hoops to prove ones self.
They can only get inside your head so much to determine ones gender so the physical is no doubt something they consider, from their side of the table something quite important.
IF this is true then it's unfortunate.. because really only subjective personal opinion can really be used to determine whether one passes or not, so some therapists are going to seem nicer than others... but also in a way good because it can be easy to convince ones self that you pass well enough when it's a percentage thing. Some people will pick you some won't. I though I used to pass well a year ago but now I look back and think wtf? ??? compared to now at least.

I guess it can also be viewed as a double standard, you can have one therapist convincing you that you have to learn to accept who you are before others accept you so you do that and then a psychiatrist says nuh uh. *shrugs*.
It is our life if we are ok with what we are going through then shouldn't that be enough? Are they seeing doubt because they let their own personal opinion get in the way? The fact you can go to one doctor and get a no and then go to another doctor and get a yes speaks volumes.

Quote from: Muffin on September 09, 2010, 07:56:36 PM
It's that RLT thing I swear, it is a structure that doesn't allow for individuality. They have an idea of the gender roles, expectations and stereotypes that a lot of them possibly get too focused on.
I guess they have to make sure that you're going to blend in with society well enough to live a happy life and not have any regrets because you can't pass.
I wouldn't be surprised if they let the pretty ones straight though no questions asked but the ones that physically have more uphill battles have to jump through more hoops to prove ones self.
They can only get inside your head so much to determine ones gender so the physical is no doubt something they consider, from their side of the table something quite important.
IF this is true then it's unfortunate.. because really only subjective personal opinion can really be used to determine whether one passes or not, so some therapists are going to seem nicer than others... but also in a way good because it can be easy to convince ones self that you pass well enough when it's a percentage thing. Some people will pick you some won't. I though I used to pass well a year ago but now I look back and think wtf? ??? compared to now at least.

I guess it can also be viewed as a double standard, you can have one therapist convincing you that you have to learn to accept who you are before others accept you so you do that and then a psychiatrist says nuh uh. *shrugs*.
It is our life if we are ok with what we are going through then shouldn't that be enough? Are they seeing doubt because they let their own personal opinion get in the way? The fact you can go to one doctor and get a no and then go to another doctor and get a yes speaks volumes.

To be honest, I think the whole "real life test" concept is stupid. I think the unnatural way in which some providers turn transition into a clinical process is purely about serving their interests, and nothing to do with ours.

My life.... is not a test. I'm an adult, and I outright reject any concept that my day to day living is a 'test' for someone who barely even knows me.

I've had arguments about this on this forum before, but I think things would be a whole lot better if treatment for trans issues were more left in the patients hands than it is right now.

And I highly reject the notion perpetuated on this forum especially that medical providers are the only ones competent enough to know what they're doing in these matters.

Quote from: Muffin on September 09, 2010, 07:56:36 PM
It's that RLT thing I swear, it is a structure that doesn't allow for individuality. They have an idea of the gender roles, expectations and stereotypes that a lot of them possibly get too focused on.
I guess they have to make sure that you're going to blend in with society well enough to live a happy life and not have any regrets because you can't pass.

I guess I really lucked out.  My therapist and shrink were up front that all that really matters is whether or not the person is going to regret surgery, and there are no requirements to pass or be stealth or anything.  Just a persistent desire for surgery for a year or more, combined living in the destination gender role for that year, plus psych eval to make sure the person is mentally healthy.  That's it.

That's partly why I find particularly offensive any suggestion that someone who doesn't regret the surgery should have been denied it because they are really a "mangina" on the basis that they don't pass or conform to a gender sereotypes or whatever.  I really hope that is not what was meant upthread.

Quote from: glendagladwitch on September 09, 2010, 08:51:55 PM
I guess I really lucked out.  My therapist and shrink were up front that all that really matters is whether or not the person is going to regret surgery, and there are no requirements to pass or be stealth or anything.  Just a persistent desire for surgery for a year or more, combined living in the destination gender role for that year, plus psych eval to make sure the person is mentally healthy.  That's it.

That's partly why I find particularly offensive any suggestion that someone who doesn't regret the surgery should have been denied it because they are really a "mangina" on the basis that they don't pass or confrom to a gender sereotypes or whatever.  I really hope that is not what was meant upthread.

It's the "combined living in the destination gender role for that year" part I take issue with.

I think the underlying concept is ok, but the problem is that I think the vast majority of people consider male and female gender roles to be far more significant than in reality.

My opinion is that "living in the destination gender role" is nothing more than your being treated as your target gender for that time due to greater than 50% passing in that gender role. It's NOTHING to do with your behavior, interests, manner of dress, etc. The problem is that some providers consider living in your target gender role to be so specific, that the majority of people in that target gender don't comply. Ironically, you're given expectations that are less accurate to living in that gender role, due to an attempt to be more accurate.

And some people take enforcement of that rule to extremes, like expecting 'proof' of living.

Quote from: Ashley4214 on September 09, 2010, 08:51:15 PM

I think things would be a whole lot better if treatment for trans issues were more left in the patients hands than it is right now.

I tend to agree, especially if the person has already had one of the many elective surgeries (i.e., breast implants or mastectomy) for which permission is not required, and they have not regretted it.  The requirement for psych eval and so forth is a bit of a hold over from stigma over transitioners being suspect as crazy.  There is a type of schizophenia in which the person claims to be the other gender, but that type of mental condition is really obvious, and the one year rlt is not needed to weed those people out.

Quote from: Ashley4214 on September 09, 2010, 08:56:13 PM
My opinion is that "living in the destination gender role" is nothing more than your being treated as your target gender for that time due to greater than even passing in that gender role. It's NOTHING to do with your behavior, interests, manner of dress, etc.

I think the RLE is considered more important in the case where the person doesn't pass and they want that person to experience the reality of what it will be like to live that way the rest of their life before the surgery happens, not after.  Maybe there is some value in that, but I don't think it will make a difference for most of us.  We don't typically decide to transition except as a last resort.

If we can agree that gender is a cultural thing not a physical thing...where as sex is a biological/physical thing and not a cultural thing.....

You can see why the 'gate-keepers' require you to pass the cultural test, for your locale nation, state or area...before they'll pass your papers to get the physicality thang going... in the right direction.

Therefore if you know this is 'the deal' then it's a no-brainer not to try and match there ideal as much as possible... surely?

Like driving tests...no one drives that way post the test...but to get the ticket for a wee while you do have to play by the 'systems' rules....

Its' not perfect program by a long-shot but there you have it....it's a system made up by only medical trained human beans....therefore whadaya expect? We're flawed, what we oft do is flawed....

Re Muffins point about being 'attractive' sadly that's bang on true....but then again how does that differ from mainstream cultural values in anyway....? Take a look inside any woman's magazine....lol

Are we getting the point now....?

Quote from: Cruelladeville on September 09, 2010, 10:26:20 PM
If we can agree that gender is a cultural thing not a physical thing...where as sex is a biological/physical thing and not a cultural thing.....

You can see why the 'gate-keepers' require you to pass the cultural test, for your locale nation, state or area...before they'll pass your papers to get the physicality thang going... in the right direction.

Therefore if you know this is 'the deal' then it's a no-brainer not to try and match there ideal as much as possible... surely?

Like driving tests...no one drives that way post the test...but to get the ticket for a wee while you do have to play by the 'systems' rules....

Its' not perfect program by a long-shot but there you have it....it's a system made up by only medical trained human beans....therefore whadaya expect? We're flawed, what we oft do is flawed....

Re Muffins point about being 'attractive' sadly that's bang on true....but then again how does that differ from mainstream cultural values in anyway....? Take a look inside any woman's magazine....lol

Are we getting the point now....?

Driving tests are required because the roads are public property within which you must share with others.

The same isn't even remotely true of HRT, I reject the need for gatekeepers full stop.

Their (psychiatrists) job is to essentially to "check" people to see if they are of sound mind within their decision to transition and take medication/pills that have a big impact on their lives?

I'd say that much makes sense but anything in relation to tacked on rules to the RLT starts to blur lines. I'd say it's important to be able to mingle with society and to be ready for that, especially those that come out without making any simple changes like hair etc, it's a longer road.
There are realistic gender expectations but some that are questionable me thinks. If one is not as feminine as the average female then so what, there are plenty of natal women that make people go hhmmm... that is normal and accepted. (In the case of the OP from her avatar and posts she presents to me more female than anything else so it does seem strange to be questioned).

It makes me think of the gender spectrum and how if one falls just over the line then they may get the hairy eyeball treatment yet their decision to transition is still legit. I feel that I am one of them!
Not that I would ever question the gender role binary system and all it's faults, oh me never :P
Well ok maybe if someone tried to use it against me then ...sure.

With respect Muffin, that is ideally the psychiatrists job. In practice, most seem to take on an entirely different role of moral guardians.

glendagladwitch #29 makes the excellent point that mental illness isn't particularly difficult to spot.

Personally, I believe that encouraging the issue to be a medical one is the wrong approach. As adults, this should be a matter of self expression and basic human right.

Quote from: spacial on September 10, 2010, 04:52:43 AM
With respect Muffin, that is ideally the psychiatrists job. In practice, most seem to take on an entirely different role of moral guardians.

glendagladwitch #29 makes the excellent point that mental illness isn't particularly difficult to spot.

Personally, I believe that encouraging the issue to be a medical one is the wrong approach. As adults, this should be a matter of self expression and basic human right.

I agree to some extent. However the problem arises because unless you can operate on yourself you are going to need the assistance of a reputable surgeon, and quite rightly these guys want be sure that in cutting you up and removing healthy tissue they are actually going to improve your life and not merely maim you.

Thus some degree of assessment is inevitable. Where I have a problem is the degree to which this is often inflexible and rule driven and indeed uses a one size fits all approach when, as Glenda has so eloquently pointed out, we all come in different shapes and sizes.

moving on however I would also prefer to see a little less elitism. I am sure I am not alone in finding the continued reference in this thread to mangina's somewhat disturbing! Not because I have any leanings in that direction but because I think that as long as someone isn't actually harming others then it's actually up them how they live their lives.

If we are happy with ourselves then we shouldn't need to bolster our own ego by pejorative labeling of someone else who may be slightly different. If someone continually does, then to me that could become a case of Shakespeare's "methinks she doth protest too much." In other words if you aren't careful an attack of that sort could be interpreted as revealing more about your own insecurities than it does about your target.

Quote from: spacial on September 09, 2010, 05:28:33 AM
I'm sure most of the others here would never be as arrogant as I was to dare to question or even suggest that a Dr could do any wrong.

Be carefull about that girl! I had the impudence to write a well-referenced letter to the Department of Health Care documenting how the GIC violated national and international threatment standards and how they had in several cases provided misleading or incorrect information to politicians and regulatory bodies.
Less than a month later I was miscredited in my files. Curiously nobody wants to take responsibility for that note or explain the reason. This reminds me of something I read by Erwin Goffman once about patients not being allowed to complain over psychiatrists. I'm gonna complain about that later, ha ha!


Tippe

Agree with you Tippe about the dangers of complaining.

Sadly, that ship has long since sailed. My reward is considerably more than a single letter. I have a long list that makes the average prison seem more like a convent. Fortunately, I am on a number of neighbourhood groups associated with the local police force.

However, I wasn't recommending that anyone complain, certanly not about Drs. Rather that they should try to be aware of what they are dealing with. This ain't TV.

But thanks for the thought.

Quote from: glendagladwitch on September 09, 2010, 02:24:19 PM
so you define mangina to be an MTF who gets and then regrets surgery?

no, manginas get surgery and don't regret it but as they live and appear as male they aren't MtF.

Quote from: lilacwoman on September 10, 2010, 02:26:46 PM
no, manginas get surgery and don't regret it but as they live and appear as male they aren't MtF.

MTF Transexual who is an FTM Fulltime Crossdresser?  I am dizzy.

Quote from: lilacwoman on September 10, 2010, 02:26:46 PM
no, manginas get surgery and don't regret it but as they live and appear as male they aren't MtF.

To each their own.  Personally I find the term disgusting.  We don't know why they may do it, so it is best left for a different thread.

Move along please.

I'm going to confess, I'm a little lost with the use of the term manginas and apparently much of the discussion involving it.

But for my own part, I don't see why I should be subject to any specifications for clothing, attitudes or lifestyle simply to qualify as MtF.

Such closed guidelines would seem to me to be simply maintaining the very stereotypes and social enforcement that is causing so much problem for us now.

addition.

Apologies Janet. I won't comment on this further in this thread.

Quote from: spacial on September 10, 2010, 02:06:32 PM
Agree with you Tippe about the dangers of complaining.

Sadly, that ship has long since sailed. My reward is considerably more than a single letter. I have a long list that makes the average prison seem more like a convent. Fortunately, I am on a number of neighbourhood groups associated with the local police force.

Sorry, I don't get that, have you been criminalized for complaining or why are you refering to the police groups?

I've written a list of letters sent out through a transgender organization, which went to the politicians. We still wait a reply from the Department of Health Care on the one about the violation of quality standards and diagnostic criteria as well as one documenting that it is twice as difficult to get approved for MTF surgery as it is to get approval for FTM surgery.

QuoteHowever, I wasn't recommending that anyone complain

Actually I would like to see more transgender activists. As long as people don't speak up for themselves about what they experience nothing will change. It does take a lot of stamina and knowledge to do it properly, however. I feel unable to just sit back as a health care professional accepting conditions so far from what I've been taught they should be.
This hospital have not done any research about transsexuality in more than 25 years, but in one of their last publications the author wrote that 35% of the patients who were allowed surgery needed psychiatric hospitalization during the evaluation phase, while only one patient had needed it after surgery. This is the kind of non-support we get here. They still don't comply with SoC recommendations introduced back in the 79-version either. Honestly I'd feel bad about myself if I just sat back doing nothing about these conditions, because I see how they affect other people who aren't as ressourceful or determined as I am.


Tippe

Quote from: Janet Lynn on September 10, 2010, 02:51:32 PM
To each their own.  Personally I find the term disgusting.  We don't know why they may do it, so it is best left for a different thread.

Move along please.

+1

I find the term both pejorative and disgusting. I heard it first used some years back. I didn't like it then, and don't like it now. :icon_no:

Quote from: Tippe on September 10, 2010, 03:52:59 PM
Sorry, I don't get that, have you been criminalized for complaining or why are you refering to the police groups?

I haven't been criminalised, in the legal sense. I have no convictions of any kind, I don't even have any driving convictions. My worse offense is a total of 6 parking tickets, all of which were promptly paid. All my taxes are paid promptly. I have no debts and own my home.

But according to my GP case notes, I have a long history of criminal behaviour, some of these include quite serious offenses which, on their own, would have resulted in imprisonment. The number would probably have me serving life.

These have been waved in my face from time to time.

I've learnt, over the years, to cultivate the necesary relationships to ensure that my reputation with outside agencies is such that, if these accusations ever do come out, I will have a defense.

This is the penality for making complaints against Drs.

I appreciate your point about solidarity. I would be more than willing to stand beside anyone in a similar situation. But I've also learnt, from bitter experience, to be very careful whom I trust. I also take great care of what I say and to whom.

Quote from: JennX on September 10, 2010, 04:06:47 PM
+1

I find the term both pejorative and disgusting. I heard it first used some years back. I didn't like it then, and don't like it now. :icon_no:

Actually I make it +2 because Janet was just making "official" a request that I had made back on page 2. I can't officially mod in this thread because I have contributed to it so that would present a conflict of interest.

Since my earlier post seems to have been overlooked, let me simply repeat my opinion that if one is secure in ones own identity it should not be necessary to denigrate others. It is also my experience that people who repeatedly choose to do so often seem to say more about their own insecurity than about those that they comment upon.

Quote from: spacial on September 10, 2010, 04:14:44 PM
I haven't been criminalised, in the legal sense. I have no convictions of any kind, ... But according to my GP case notes, I have a long history of criminal behaviour, some of these include quite serious offenses which, on their own, would have resulted in imprisonment.

So the doctors made up stories about you? That's bad.

QuoteI've also learnt, from bitter experience, to be very careful whom I trust. I also take great care of what I say and to whom.

I probably should learn that too, I've just always been an open person. Makes me feel much more free to say, hey, here I am and I'm not ashamed of being myself. I am never gonna go stealth for that reason.



Tippe

Quote from: lilacwoman on September 10, 2010, 02:26:46 PM
manginas

I'm Old Greg!!!!

Sorry, but I really don't think that phrase has any relevance outside the Mighty Boosh.

Quote from: Tippe on September 10, 2010, 04:35:27 PM
So the doctors made up stories about you? ->-bleeped-<-, that's bad.



I probably should learn that too, I've just always been an open person. Makes me feel much more free to say, hey, here I am and I'm not ashamed of being myself. I am never gonna go stealth for that reason.



Tippe

As preposterus as it sounds, that's what happened.

I know of a woman who was being treated for cancer. She made a complaint about another Dr in her surgery and both she and her daughter, who had nothing to do with it, were struck off the surgery roll.

The lesson is, be careful with these people. They have enormous power, are entirely ego driven and there are no laws that can stop them.

:police: Please review rule 10:

10. Bashing or flaming of any individuals or groups is not acceptable behavior on this web site and will not be tolerated in the slightest for any reason.  This includes but is not limited to:

• Advocating the separation or exclusion of one or more group from under the Transgender umbrella term
• Suggesting or claiming that one segment or sub-segment of our community is more legitimate, deserving, or more real than any others

Further use of the term "mangina" or further expressions that some people are not "real" transsexuals will call for disiplinary action.

Besides, it's off-topic (rule 15).  Have a nice day. :police:

- Kate

Quote from: spacial on September 10, 2010, 06:35:23 PM
As preposterus as it sounds, that's what happened.

I know of a woman who was being treated for cancer. She made a complaint about another Dr in her surgery and both she and her daughter, who had nothing to do with it, were struck off the surgery roll.

The lesson is, be careful with these people. They have enormous power, are entirely ego driven and there are no laws that can stop them.

Actually, you should report the doctor/surgeon in question to their "Professional Association", which here in Australia is the AMA. There are rules in place to prevent this, it's a fail from an ethical point of view at the very least.. In the UK, complaints are handled either through the NHS or through the British Medical Association if you are a private patient.

I've registered a complaint about a GP here in Australia and there is no mention of it on any of my records. The doctor in question ended up being struck off the register. TBH, your issues sound like you've failed to stand your ground and have the "issue" resolved. As I've mentioned in other threads, doctors are not gods, they are simply a trained and experienced tradesman. If you had some plumbing work done taht was no good, would you just live with it?

Thank you for the suggestion. I wouldn't recommend it to anyone.

There is a police inspector I know very well. (I think in US Police ranks, he would be equivelent to a Captain. Sorry I don't have any information of other countries). He once told me I could produce a video, time and date stamped and they still couldn't prosecute simply because jurys won't convict a Dr.

I'm pleased that your Australian medical association has such integrity. Though to say I'm surprised is putting it mildly.

Here, the BMA refuses to even hear any cases that have not been referred by a fellow Dr or the press. Drs are regularly found to have killed patients and commited other serious offense, yet have no penality.

Many people complained about Dr Shipman. It was only when he murdered the aunt of a woman who is a lawyer, that any action was taken. Before he even went to court there were lurid stories of hom going back years. His conviction was a forgone conclusion. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dr_Shipman (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dr_Shipman)

The NHS does indeed have a complaints procedure. Drs refuse to recognise it. Three years ago, a woman was admitted to hospital with heart failure and pulmonary oedema. She could hardly breath or move. Her daughter, who was a senior nurse in the same hospital, was with her. A Dr came in, pushed past the daughter, whom she knew personally, demanded some information from this woman. When the woman was unable to answer, the Dr told her she would have to leave and even tried to remove her bed clothes.

The daughter made a complaint to the hospital and got an apology from the managers. The Dr refused to attend. The daughter later found herself being harrassed at work and took early retirement.

Have a read at this: http://www.gosportwarmemorialcoverup.spruz.com/ (http://www.gosportwarmemorialcoverup.spruz.com/)

I could write a whole library of this stuff. It happens daily. Most is rarely reported.

But with respect, my point was and is, that we must treat these people with caution. They are very dangerous, they have stronger detention powers than the courts, they are above the law. Their greatest asset is the unquestioning trust people place in them and the image of the caring Dr protrayed on TV.

I don't want to hijack this thread.

But I must add that, I hear so many good things about Australia. I sometimes wonder if God hasn't accedently opened heaven a little early.

Addition.

There's something else I want to add, to illustrate the situation.

When I was working as a nurse, I was, for a time, in an elderly care admissions ward. A very confused woman was admitted whose daughter was a journalist.

Suddenly, an army of cleaners turned up and scrubbed the whole ward. Old furnature and curtains were removed and replaced with stuff from the senior staff lounge. The woman only stayed for about three days. After she left the new furnature was removed.

Goddess Spacial
I'm very sorry to hear this. As Kelly said the rules here are tight. There was a USA surgeon (Dr Patel) who 'worked' in Queensland killed several people was totally inept. When the lights were turned he ran back to the USA.  Australia had him extradited, put on trial and he is now in goal for manslaughter. Even though he had written authority form his victims that he could perform the surgery. This is the golden grail of medicine: The patient gave me the authority to perform the procedure even though I had explained the risks involved it's the legal cop out.

The medics I work with are fine dedicated and highly trained, intelligent people. They do not tolerate crap medics. The brother and sisterhood that seems to protect these people in other countries isn't popular here. There are regular prosecutions and people struck off for poor practice. Overseas medics have to pass an English test. Overseas qualifications are not accepted without review, including UK & USA. Ok the surgeon slipped in and there are falsified document cases that get through but they are prosecuted when found out.

And yes the goddess did create Australia so her angels could migrate from the UK :laugh:

I'm sure she would welcome you :-* :-* :-* :-* :-*


Cindy

Quote from: spacial on September 11, 2010, 03:16:31 AM
Thank you for the suggestion. I wouldn't recommend it to anyone.

There is a police inspector I know very well. (I think in US Police ranks, he would be equivelent to a Captain. Sorry I don't have any information of other countries). He once told me I could produce a video, time and date stamped and they still couldn't prosecute simply because jurys won't convict a Dr.

We have a complaints board here too. Delisting doctors have occured, but is very rare. They usually end up with a warning without legal effects instead. The board however is known to criticise specific incidents or change unsupported statements etc., which is why I am gonna go to them, because many people have experienced SRS rejection based on reasons who do not exclude transsexuality according to ICD-10 criteria such as attraction to females in a transwoman or having parented children.

QuoteThe daughter made a complaint to the hospital and got an apology from the managers. The Dr refused to attend. The daughter later found herself being harrassed at work and took early retirement.

I'm very careful about that too, because anything I document might end up being held against me professionally. For instance we have an extented obligation to report certain threatment errors, yet if I do so based on the numerous records sent to me by fellow transsexuals I might end up being accused of breaching confidentially.



Tippe

Quote from: lilacwoman on September 10, 2010, 02:26:46 PM
no, manginas get surgery and don't regret it but as they live and appear as male they aren't MtF.

mangina is a derogatory term, and it does not mean a person.  You can't call a person a 'mangina'.  ::)

It was used in some stupid comedy and has no relevance in real life. It's technically tucking to be precise but some bright spark gave it a name.


BTW, why is it anyone's business who has a vagina and who hasn't and how the hell would anyone know anyway?  ???

This reminds me of a psychiatrist I had that told me that he didn't think that what I was taking for hrt was working or would ever work. He was basically saying that he didn't think I'd ever pass and he kept trying to patronize by getting me to accept that passing isn't everything. (btw, my current pic is from before I even visited that psych. Some psychs are just dicks for whatever reason.)

Quote from: Ayaname on September 12, 2010, 03:11:30 PM
Some psychs are just dicks for whatever reason.

This is true and it's so unfortunate that some of us have to travel around to different locations just to find one that is human, it shouldn't be like that. But on the other hand there are good ones out there, it may be an idea to ask other TSs in your area through local support groups to see if they know of any decent ones. That is how I found all my doctors etc. Though my endo was a bit differcult, I only needed to see him twice so I bit my tongue. My psychiatrist is really friendly and helpful... a keeper! It's just finding them, without help from the support group I would of been in a similar situation no doubt :P

Sorry to hear about that horrible experience. I have not yet begun RLE but this does concern me if there are very many doctors out there who are like this. These are terrible doctors in any case. Let's talk about RLE and what it is. Doesn't the term define itself? You are living for a year as you, not someone fake or with a false front. So they define it as you living full time presenting female. Last time I checked there are a lot of different types of women out there. I like drinking beer, playing pool, and I also like shooting guns. These are more masculine things but what is the difference? Do all women out there hug teddy bears at night, blanket their faces in makeup, and giggle constantly? No they don't. Do all men walk around like linebackers, revving up their giant pickup trucks, and lift weights all day? No they don't. These are gender stereotypes. Every man and woman has both masculine and feminine qualities, just some have more of one than the other. That does not make them any less male or female. Any doctor that feels otherwise should not be trusted. Men cry at movies and women change flat tires. RLE should be about you living your everyday life being you whatever that is. I've often felt that psychiatrists and counselors could often use to learn a few things from their own patients.

Skimmed a lil over the thread.... that really sucks that you had to go through all that.  It really does.  But that is a large reason why I refuse to see one till I have to do so.  I have had nothing but bad experiences with any therapist I have ever seen or just a counselor.  All from taking me to seriously in just speaking stress, breaking the no tell rule of family, bad advice, pills for something unrelated in any fashion on what I was seeing them, you name it.

I wouldn't trust one even if ya paid me a billion dollars.  Fools who apply their personal opinions to everything and try to judge everyone upon a book line.  When not a damn single person is even remotely the same in what they can and can not take.

Quote from: Britney_413 on September 13, 2010, 01:35:46 AM
Last time I checked there are a lot of different types of women out there. I like drinking beer, playing pool, and I also like shooting guns. These are more masculine things but what is the difference?

I know one transitioner who recently related that she met up with some former coworkers (from a place where she transitioned so they knew), for some drinks after work, and the women all ordered beer.  Then one of the men commented to the transitioenr that it wasn't a very feminine drink.  She pointed to the other women and remarked, "I don't see you telling them that."  It's a double stabdard for women, a triple standard for transitioners.

Quote from: glendagladwitch on September 13, 2010, 08:29:49 AM
I know one transitioner who recently related that she met up with some former coworkers (from a place where she transitioned so they knew), for some drinks after work, and the women all ordered beer.  Then one of the men commented to the transitioenr that it wasn't a very feminine drink.  She pointed to the other women and remarked, "I don't see you telling them that."  It's a double stabdard for women, a triple standard for transitioners.

That sounds like a rather mean wind up

Ha ha,

reminds me of a story I heard from one of the first male nurses in Denmark. During the fifties he was told to cut his hair for hygiejnic reasons by one of the doctors. He just turned around and said: Sure, as soon as you tell all the girls to do so too :)



Tippe

Quote from: Tippe on September 13, 2010, 09:52:39 AM
During the fifties he was told to cut his hair for hygiejnic reasons by one of the doctors. He just turned around and said: Sure, as soon as you tell all the girls to do so too :)
Tippe

But ... boy hair is made from puppy dog tails, while girl hair is made from everything nice.  Everyone knows that.  :P

Quote from: glendagladwitch on September 13, 2010, 08:29:49 AM
I know one transitioner who recently related that she met up with some former coworkers (from a place where she transitioned so they knew), for some drinks after work, and the women all ordered beer.  Then one of the men commented to the transitioenr that it wasn't a very feminine drink.  She pointed to the other women and remarked, "I don't see you telling them that."  It's a double stabdard for women, a triple standard for transitioners.

When I trained as a bar person, more years ago than I wish to think, the training was make the ladies a nice lager/ beer and decorate it with some fruit etc. That way they will still feel feminine having a glass of beer. Then my first placement was in the (UK) Liverpool dock lands area. Put a piece of fruit in a womens glass and it would end up sideways in your rhyming word.


Cindy

Quote from: CindyJames on September 14, 2010, 03:43:27 AM
Put a piece of fruit in a womens glass and it would end up sideways in your rhyming word.

:) :D ;D :laugh: ROFLMAO!

Now I've just gone and spray painted my wall with coffee. Your posts should sometimes carry a comedy warning!

Quote from: glendagladwitch on September 13, 2010, 06:44:55 PM
But ... boy hair is made from puppy dog tails, while girl hair is made from everything nice.  Everyone knows that.  :P

That's so true :) HRT turned my puppy tale into a pony tale. Huge improvement :)


Tippe

Presenting male I used to feel like a wimp when I asked for a glass to go with my bottle of beer (and would get some funny looks).  Now I live in a place where, as a woman, I still have to ask for a glass to go with my bottle of beer but no longer get the funny looks. ::)  And Britney: The guys at the shooting range are very nice to me, since I'm one of the few women who go out there. :)

Back to the topic: I'm really sorry to hear about the troubles so many of you have had with the mental health professionals.  I was very lucky.  I never had to prove anything, dressed in jeans most of my RLE the same as most women around here do, talked about trying to fit into my new role, and got some help along the way.  There are some good, accepting, helpful therapists and counselors out there.  Keep looking and you will find one.

- Kate

Quote from: K8 on September 14, 2010, 08:19:41 AM
Presenting male I used to feel like a wimp when I asked for a glass to go with my bottle of beer (and would get some funny looks).  Now I live in a place where, as a woman, I still have to ask for a glass to go with my bottle of beer but no longer get the funny looks. ::)  And Britney: The guys at the shooting range are very nice to me, since I'm one of the few women who go out there. :)

I learnt that from my dad - I always ask for a glass with beer (I don't drink it anymore, but hey)- he's English, and it's an English thing, so you would have felt right at home buying beer in England when you used to present as a guy! I feel horrid drinking beer from the bottle!

I've also been really lucky with psychiatrists and therapists. I still present as a guy, and I had hrt approval from my psychiatrist after just three sessions with him - it was absolutely no problem - he does specialize in trans people and gay people, so he is very understanding. The only drawback is that he costs a fortune - $300 for a 50 minute session! I am not made of $$$ so don't see him very often!

Quote from: glendagladwitch on September 13, 2010, 08:29:49 AM
I know one transitioner who recently related that she met up with some former coworkers (from a place where she transitioned so they knew), for some drinks after work, and the women all ordered beer.  Then one of the men commented to the transitioenr that it wasn't a very feminine drink.  She pointed to the other women and remarked, "I don't see you telling them that."  It's a double standard for women, a triple standard for transitioners.

It is unthoughtful for a person to make a remark like that, a simple moment of reason or a look around should be enough for him to realize. But are you sure this comment was intended to be negative? Some things that are percieved as rude can actually be said with good (or neutral) intentions, it is just dependant on the way you look at things. As for me, I said something similar once. A slip of the tongue which was meant as a neutral remark but was interpreted as negative.
Why should beer be a masculine drink? Where I live it is normal to get a moist glass when you order a beer.

I think I've had a good experience with psychiatrists for the most part, but I've dealt with a couple of different issues that probably confused my problem. Early on in my life I was an lsd user and kind of blew my brain apart. It took awhile for  them to sew back my mind ,They did a good job. The problem was that the true problem was my gender which got obscured by the drugs. I did have a terrible psychologist while I was going to one school who really didn't seem to know what the hell he was doing and this was in an academic setting. I spent 4 years once a week seeing him and crying each session because I was in so much pain and didn't know why. After this experience I gave up on therapy and spent the time trying to heal myself. I thought I was doing pretty good until I realized I still had this incredible pain inside of me .I lost my job and completely broke down ending up in the suicide prevention floor at the hospital. I finally told the psychiatrist that I wanted to be a woman. The hospital got me into therapy with a fantastic female therapist and I started HRT and I've been quite happy ever since. You just need to find the right therapist . they are out there.

Quote from: Cindy on September 09, 2010, 04:32:55 AM
Jenny and others are of course totally correct.

But medical fields specialize,  I could make many medical jokes at this point but I wont. Psychiatrists are the same. There are two in Adelaide who are specialized in GID, you can get referred  to any one you wish but the others may not have an interest or an understanding of GID. They will treat you as a patient with unknown pathology.  I heard of one who had his, hopefully first and last MtF,  prescribe, "Take up manly pursuits, running and footy, if you have these fantasies have a cold shower to clear the mind" . He was only recently registered (past five years). So the level of understanding you obtain can be very variable.   

I also agree with lilacwomen, there are guidelines, but some Psych's have never heard of them, because it isn't an area of interest to them.

Cindy

How is this not a violation of professional ethics? How would the college respond to this?

While I'm sure there are some decent psychs out there, there are plenty that are self-important bores who likely do more damage than good.

The psych I went to was fairly harmless, but also ineffectual. If I had to rely on him for anything other than signing off on my receiving HRT, I think I would've been in trouble. He too was pompous and when he wasn't being condescending he was off on some unrelated tangent about his own career. And while he wasn't abrasive or rude in an overt sense (quite polite, actually), he had zero interest in knowing anything about me. I suspected from the start that he was always going to approve my request for HRT, so maybe he was just filling in our sessions with waffle. The feeling I got from him was that there's no hard evidence one way or the other regarding gender perception, so who was he to stop someone from taking hormones. He actually lectures on GID (ethics and practice) and what he said regarding his and his colleagues understanding of the subject left me despairing. At least they are trying?

I think the area of mental health is still very much in its infancy (and will remain so until there's a more comprehensive understanding of brain function), so the way psychs interact with patients is incredibly wide-ranging. So while there may be systems in place, it's the personality of the psych that shines through the strongest, because there just isn't enough science behind what they do. I once had a psych who told me after just two sessions that she thought I would definitely, absolutely transition. Now what on earth could she have based that "diagnosis" on, seriously?

1, report the doctor to your state's medical board. If for no other reason, he has no business treating transexuals. 2, It upsets me that our community believes they need letters to start HRT, get FFS, or even SRS. As your story illustrates, there is no objective standard binding doctors and their treartment. The application of subjective opinion to an objective anomaly makes no sense.

In the cis-gendend community a plastic surgeon doesn't demand a psychological evaluation to do a bleph, septoplasty, cheek, butt, and breast implants. But if you're trans, you need a letter? Clearly, from our first visit we're mental ill, until proven otherwise.

The truth is, the medical community still refuses to treat GD as a genetic a anomaly. With all but one exception, every physician I know doesn't get it. A pediatrician I know and used to be close to asked what I was going to do with my penis. Another pediatrician who has been practicing 40+ years said she could walk with me on the Venice boardwalk because she feared that I would get attacked for using a public restroom. Another told me if I was gay, or a x-cross dresser.

Quote from: DrZoey on December 26, 2013, 04:36:45 PM
1, report the doctor to your state's medical board. If for no other reason, he has no business treating transexuals. 2, It upsets me that our community believes they need letters to start HRT, get FFS, or even SRS. As your story illustrates, there is no objective standard binding doctors and their treartment. The application of subjective opinion to an objective anomaly makes no sense.

In the cis-gendend community a plastic surgeon doesn't demand a psychological evaluation to do a bleph, septoplasty, cheek, butt, and breast implants. But if you're trans, you need a letter? Clearly, from our first visit we're mental ill, until proven otherwise.

The truth is, the medical community still refuses to treat GD as a genetic a anomaly. With all but one exception, every physician I know doesn't get it. A pediatrician I know and used to be close to asked what I was going to do with my penis. Another pediatrician who has been practicing 40+ years said she could walk with me on the Venice boardwalk because she feared that I would get attacked for using a public restroom. Another told me if I was gay, or a x-cross dresser.

They can't  separate their baggage from their oath to heal.

Quote from: JessicaR on September 08, 2010, 10:13:40 PM
Ugh..

  I was referred to my (former) psych by my therapist; She said that  he had treated Transsexual patients before. I should have walked away after the first appointment when he pointed out everything in my experience that he perceived as "more of a guy thing." While talking about my substance abuse I said that I liked beer... he said that I should like sweeter drinks; I talked about my persistent suicidal thoughts and he stated that, "Women generally choose less lethal means of killing themselves."
  I hoped that we would eventually develop a relationship and discuss my desire for surgery... He seemed to think that my being Transsexual had nothing to do with my depression. He also seemed unnecessarily concerned with my breast development... I don't see how whether I was wearing a bra or not had anything to do with my treatment, but he asked. He gave me the creeps.
  I didn't see him for awhile; I attended an outpatient treatment program for depression and anxiety a few months ago. Thanks to some very caring staff and a superlative treatment program, I now feel much more equipped to deal with life in general. I'm off meds and feel better than I have in years! I made an appointment with the very peculiar Dr. Kisch to ask if he would compose the very short letter that would allow me to obtain a passport with an "F" instead of an "M." He stated, "I balk at your request." He suggested that I was abusing his services. He stated that, even though I reported feeling well, I should be on medication. He was pompous, condescending and generally didn't seem to give a damn about the state of my well being.... only that I was apparently asking for something so unreasonable.... and it violated his supreme authority as a doctor.  I fired him.
  Thankfully, my therapist has given her endorsement and is currently composing my authorization letter for surgery... I'll have the "F"  .... it'll just have to wait a little longer.  :)
   This was my fourth psychiatrist.... They were all freaking creepy! I'm left with the feeling that their training somehow leaves them incapable of compassion. The one before refused to acknowledge my Transsexuality and perceived it as a lifestyle choice.  I'm DONE with psychiatry! I'm angry, dissapointed and frustrated..

..........Just had to vent

Sounds like you diagnosed his issues much better than he diagnosed yours.... you should have sent him a bill.  ;)

Almost every medium to large community has a LGBT center. I highly suggest contacting them for psychologist suggestions. I also suggest contacting them when looking for a GP.

Knowing you are seeing an advocate can save time.

We no longer need to see a shrink to get HRT, but it can be quite helpful for many of us.

My local LBGT group suggested my psychologist, and before I even saw him, he, over the phone, listed every local doctor who practiced informed consent. I was able to choose my doctor and see him independantly of my psychologist, and within a week I'd had my blood tested and began HRT. I have been seeing the psychologist ever since. Funny thing is I can't remember being in such good head space for such an extended time (you know if HRT works for you), so my psychologist has never seen the depressed Tori who sceduled an appointment in the first place.

Quote from: JessicaR on September 08, 2010, 10:13:40 PM
Ugh..

  I was referred to my (former) psych by my therapist; She said that  he had treated Transsexual patients before. I should have walked away after the first appointment when he pointed out everything in my experience that he perceived as "more of a guy thing." While talking about my substance abuse I said that I liked beer... he said that I should like sweeter drinks; I talked about my persistent suicidal thoughts and he stated that, "Women generally choose less lethal means of killing themselves."
  I hoped that we would eventually develop a relationship and discuss my desire for surgery... He seemed to think that my being Transsexual had nothing to do with my depression. He also seemed unnecessarily concerned with my breast development... I don't see how whether I was wearing a bra or not had anything to do with my treatment, but he asked. He gave me the creeps.
  I didn't see him for awhile; I attended an outpatient treatment program for depression and anxiety a few months ago. Thanks to some very caring staff and a superlative treatment program, I now feel much more equipped to deal with life in general. I'm off meds and feel better than I have in years! I made an appointment with the very peculiar Dr. Kisch to ask if he would compose the very short letter that would allow me to obtain a passport with an "F" instead of an "M." He stated, "I balk at your request." He suggested that I was abusing his services. He stated that, even though I reported feeling well, I should be on medication. He was pompous, condescending and generally didn't seem to give a damn about the state of my well being.... only that I was apparently asking for something so unreasonable.... and it violated his supreme authority as a doctor.  I fired him.
  Thankfully, my therapist has given her endorsement and is currently composing my authorization letter for surgery... I'll have the "F"  .... it'll just have to wait a little longer.  :)
   This was my fourth psychiatrist.... They were all freaking creepy! I'm left with the feeling that their training somehow leaves them incapable of compassion. The one before refused to acknowledge my Transsexuality and perceived it as a lifestyle choice.  I'm DONE with psychiatry! I'm angry, dissapointed and frustrated..

..........Just had to vent

I just posted at another psychiatric thread.  I saw much the same basic story come out.  I'm pretty alarmed at what the psychiatric profession's pumping out at transitioning members of the community.

Ask creepy/condescending psychiatrists questions, before you move on, to empower you and make them self-reflect:

--so doctor, are you suggesting that our parental system of laws that places you as gatekeeper over my fate isn't a potentially iatrogenic one, for that group of clients who certainly do know what they are doing because they have the sense of self to know what's best for themselves?

iatrogenic means 'harm-causing services'.  What he did was harm-causing.  You don't cite gender stats about 'lethality of method of self-harm' to a person in care, except for very special instances.  You don't make sexist comments.  You don't make service provision about you-the-therapist, you make it about you-the-client.  He applied his authority without empathy.  I wasn't even there and I want to wash when I read your post.

kind regards
stav

 :-\  oh lord talk about nerve wracking.

I live in the US and have had bad experiences with psychiatrists and Psycologists. As far as I know I don't need to see one to start my hrt (s-pecially if I self treat). Most of my bad experiences happened to me as a child and it has engrained distrust for them within me. I just hope my new GP is going to be understanding and get me to the right Endo to get started. My old GP who just retired was very "old school" and of no use at all. And he kept telling me I was gay which I know I am not. He had no concept of transgender or GID whatsoever.

I agree with many of you here who say that we who have been living this all of our lives know what we need to feel right both inside and outside a little better than someone who barely knows us despite his credentials (I've never had a problem with female therapists it seems).

Also the female stereotypes many of you spoke of horrify me. You mean because I own a boat and enjoy fishing I'm not a woman? -p-l-e-ase! I wish for and hope for better treatment for all of you whom have had it bad in the future, for I know how it feels to know who you are and have someone with a degree on their wall say different despite the fact I am now and have always been very femminine in both appearance and actions/attetude. ;)