Susan's Place Transgender Resources

I apologize in advance if this post gets lengthy. I'm just really struggling with this issue lately and I don't really have anywhere else to turn. Thanks if you read it all. :)

I'm 20. I am very masculine in dress/appearance but a bit feminine in personality. I like sports, aviation, the military, and mostly guy stuff, but I'm very sensitive and nurturing. I someday want to have a husband/partner and adopt kids. (I have no desire to carry a child) I am having serious difficulty figuring out whether I want to live the rest of my life as a masculine woman or a trans guy.

The family members that I'm out to are very against me transitioning. I know that my life would probably be easier if I stay a heterosexual girl. But I don't know how to figure out if that's me or not. I like to bind, I like being mistaken for a man, I like to pack, I want to try "topping" a guy, and I like being percieved as half of a gay couple. I've dated a handful of gay guys and all those relationships have ended because they couldn't deal with me having to go back and forth between names/genders depending on who we were around. I like being Konnor, but I'm afraid I will lose my family and never find a man who loves me if I am Konnor.

I am also not sure if I would be happy living the rest of my life as I am now...kind of in between genders. It just seems like a huge hassle, to have a different name/gender depending on who I am around and who knows me as who. I would really be happy being a masculine person with no gender, but society really makes it so that you have to pick one. But I don't know which one to pick...

I guess I'm just asking if anyone has any advice or feels this way. I have been seeing a therapist for years, so I'm ok on that front. She just keeps telling me to be myself and the gender stuff will work itself out. But it really seems like it's becoming a bigger and bigger issue in my mind, instead of working itself out. How do I figure out who the heck I am?  ???

Honestly...what you're therapist said is pretty close to what I would say. It's not as if there is a solid line between masculine female and FTM. It's a big gray area of gender identity/expression.

Quote from: konman on September 10, 2010, 06:52:44 PMI am having serious difficulty figuring out whether I want to live the rest of my life as a masculine woman or a trans guy.

I am too.  I've also been seeing a therapist and she says I present as clearly trans and she'll write me a note if I ask, but I'm still not 100% sure.  More like 90% at this point.  I like to bind and be seen as male, but transitioning is such a big thing.  I've only been actively researching for about a year, but I'm already frustrated that I haven't come to a definite decision yet. 

So I can't really offer any advice since I'm in pretty much the same place.  But I have just found a nearby trans group that I'm going to try to go to.  Maybe that would help, if you don't already have an offline group?

I think you just need to be yourself.  Don't force yourself to fit into any box that society deems you need to be in.

As for the name thing ... how about you choose a gender neutral name?  Or what says you change to male name and pronoun but don't transition?  No one says there is a set way of doing things.  Sometimes if we stop thinking about ourselves and just live our lives how we want things just come together.

Personally, I have lived most of my life as a masculine/butch lesbian ... and be okay with it .. but since I made the decision to be my true self ... male ... I have been super ecstatic ... my depression has lifted.  That being said...everyone is different and I don't think anyone should feel like they have to be pushed into a box.   

i had this after reading dirts blogs and it really screwed my head up for a while. I dont think anyone is 100% sure they are doing the right thing but i waited til i was 38 for a few reasons and that wait has made me realise that what i'm doing is right for me. Like a few others have said- take away the boxes other people try to put you in and live the life you want. I know its easier in some ways at my age when you have less people who have a say in your life but if necessary only go so far along the journey until you feel comfortable taking it any further or decide that youve reached the place you want to be. For me its a direct choice between losing the female body so i can be the person in my head or carry on living a lie and pretending that the body defines me but its not always that simple.

I can relate to this.  I'm at the point where I've taken away the boxes and it still seems complicated and confusing.  But I have noticed that the more I face my gender issues openly and directly, the happier I am.  For me, it seems that just doing something about it makes a big difference, no matter what the outcome.

As others have said, it's all about being yourself.  And I don't think there is necessarily much of a difference between being ftm and being a masculine woman - it depends on what those things mean to you and how you want to describe yourself to other people.  I don't think there's a set definition for any of these labels.  I mean that within reason, you get to make up your own rules.  Just go with what comes naturally to you, and find the right term for it later.

I feel similar.  Sometimes I'm 100% positive that transitioning is the best thing for me and that I can't get on T soon enough, then sometimes I'm terrified I might be making a huge mistake.  I'm just trying to take it slow right now.  I know life would be a lot less complicated if I don't transition.  My therapist keeps telling me I need to get on T as soon as possible and my mom keeps trying to convince me that I'm just going through a phase and that I'll ruin my life if I transition.  So I'm feeling a bit torn.

Quote from: Kvall on September 10, 2010, 08:06:02 PMI realize that doesn't help when you don't know yet if you're "male gendered" or "female gendered" or something else. But that is a wholly subjective thing, and it's something that comes easily to some but others struggle to get a grasp on.

The fact that it's subjective, and different for everyone, is what I was trying to emphasize.  Also, having a gender that doesn't match your body does not mean you have to transition.  Whether or not you transition is a personal choice.  For many, transitioning is the best course of action, but it's not for everyone.  And for people who choose not to transition, maybe "masculine woman" could be an appropriate term to use to help people understand.  Labels never fit anyway.

Quote from: konman on September 10, 2010, 06:52:44 PM
I like to bind, I like being mistaken for a man, I like to pack, I want to try "topping" a guy, and I like being percieved as half of a gay couple.

I feel like you pretty much answered your own questions here.  There's no question that your gender identity is male, and if you compromise on that front you will never be happy.  Your family may come around and accept you (if they love you, they will).  However, you will never "come around."  This is one of those things I suggest you continue to pursue, because as those around you see how much happier you are, they will come to terms with it as well.

You can be whoever you want when you transition, being sensitive and nurturing isn't all that rare in guys.

As far as being with another man goes, there will most definitely be men who are interested in you.  I get hit on 4x as much by gay men as I do by straight women, and judging from your profile picture, you will be getting hit on a lot.

You can give it time and allow others to come around on their own.  If you transition, I promise you'll hit a point where you yourself will no longer be content having to switch who you are around certain people, and you will step up and work the issue out yourself.  I would hate to see you stop pursuing something so important to your long-term happiness because of the short-term discomfort of those around you!

Quote from: Quicksand on September 10, 2010, 09:10:16 PM
I feel like you pretty much answered your own questions here.  There's no question that your gender identity is male, and if you compromise on that front you will never be happy. 

I disagree with this. It's possible to enjoy/want those things without a male gender identity.

Quote from: Nygeel on September 10, 2010, 09:27:35 PM
I disagree with this. It's possible to enjoy/want those things without a male gender identity.

You're right, I didn't really think about that statement enough, and I shouldn't make such broad generalizations.  But when I look at his entire situation, I feel like this indicates that transitioning would be a positive thing for him.

What @Rob and @Alexmakenoise said are a lot of what I would say.

There are other FTMs who swear up and down that happiness was not attainable until they went through with transition and lived their lives as male only. But that was what THEY needed to do. It can not be a broad brush that just gets applied to everyone.

I'm not sure how old you are but I know for myself it took me at least a couple decades to find an equilibrium. Some people find their answers sooner in life, some even later.

I have noticed (not really here, but in other places) that if you say you're transsexual (or transgendered) and you're around FTMs the 1st question is how far along transition you are ... how long have you been on T, etc. I think it boils down to a labeling issue really. FTM = female TO male, implying that you're changing INTO something else. In my mind, I've always been male, so I came to my own personal conclusion that I didn't have to change my body just for society to accept/approve/whatever what I always knew to be true. I occasionally have dysphoria about my body, but I've come to terms with it and I've made my own choices about it and I'm not at risk for suicide or anything. I don't even see a therapist anymore ... because it just wasn't doing anything for me. I had to just decide in my mind to really, truly, be myself. It was incredibly freeing to do so. Most of my friends just think I'm a tom boy or "act" male. Whatever. I realized it doesn't even matter because my friends accept me when I'm just being myself and that's what does matter. Society as a whole can look at me and make judgments but it's still not going to change my brain. Maybe I'm just weird, I don't know. I mean, I never had the transition option when I was younger - I had to find a different way to get through it. And I definitely went down some wrong paths. When I found out about transitioning I considered it for a short time but I realized that I would not be changing my body for me, but for the outside world. I know that's the whole point and all but I just disliked the idea and I didn't want to put my body through all of it when my body was fine, even though I didn't have the "right" parts. Most of the time I live my life just like any other dude. Sometimes I play the part of female. Only in the last few years have I really accepted that and it's only because of how I view it in my mind. I also have some very good friends who opened my eyes to different perspectives and ways of thought. One said to me that I was very lucky. I couldn't even fathom how I could be lucky to be stuck in a body that I felt I shouldn't have. He said, well you have a unique perspective on life that few get. You know how it is to be treated as female and you know how it is to be treated as male. You can play the part when required and have the benefits of both genders when you want to. I had never even thought about it like that. Then I came across this one video on youtube that was interviewing intersex people. And some of them had come to similar terms - that they have a unique perspective and in many ways are actually lucky to have the experiences they've had.

Some people can't be both. Some people need to pick one side. That's fine too. If you find that you can't handle being referred to as female at all, that still doesn't mean that you have to change your body if you're not ready to make that plunge. It's really about experimenting to find your balance and comfort and confidence. If you don't transition, that also doesn't mean that you're all of a sudden not male as well ... or that you're 100% female. There's tons of people out there (even plain old "normal" people who don't identify as trans-anything) who aren't 100% of one gender.

I think if you can not accept that people might call you she, her, ma'am, miss, etc. then you might need to consider some form of transition (and I really believe there are many levels of that, in which you should only go as far as you feel comfortable). If you absolutely can not live with boobs then you can have those removed and go no further.

Last thing I'll say, because this is getting pretty long is that sometimes it also takes awhile to "find" yourself and to know who you want to be. There's so many options available and there's no time limit. Don't force yourself to make a decision if it just doesn't feel right.

QuoteI like being Konnor, but I'm afraid I will lose my family and never find a man who loves me if I am Konnor.

My friends who transitioned got to a point where they were willing to risk their family and their future love life because they couldn't go on as they were. I didn't have family to risk, so insert "partner" for me. If transition becomes a need, or you perceive it as a need, you can get to a point where you simply must transition. The process of getting there seems to vary from person to person. Maybe you just haven't gotten there yet. Maybe you won't get there. I suspect that at some point, the limbo will become unbearable, you'll reach critical mass in one direction or the other, and you'll make a relatively permanent decision. But I don't know that you can logic your way through that decision. Most people I know got there...I don't know, sort of organically, I guess, in a gut way, probably because their minds were quietly grinding through the problem behind the scenes for quite some time.

Would it really be "easier" to live as a hetero masculine woman? Emotionally easier? Logistically easier? Emotions can quickly overcome logistics...

One question that you should consider is the "ideal world" scenario. If you knew that you could transition now and not lose any jobs, family, friends, lovers--in short, not risk any of the basic necessities of life or the social connections that you value--would you do it? The answer to that question can be very illuminating, but a "yes" answer won't necessarily decide things for you because this is not an ideal world. But answering this question helps you to sort out your fears and priorities.

How much is your therapist helping you with this?

I agree with Kvall.  I was a lesbian for a long time, transitioned at 39/40, the big difference (to me) is  a butch lesbian is still female, I am not female I a male. In the end being masculine had nothing to do with it there are masculine and feminine men. In the end for me I knew I am as guy and needed to quit pretending I was something I am not. I was never comfortable in the lesbian community because I was still having to present as female.
I did have to put it all on the line, I have a partner and 2 kids.  If I had not transitioned my partner would have probably left me anyway because I was so miserable and unhappy all the time. In the end it all worked out fine and we are still a family, it is hard for her at times but she is doing great.
I wish I could give you some help on figuring it all out, all I can say is at some point it became very clear to me that I was holding on to being female for everyone else but me.
Myles

I've done a lot of questioning, over my life. I tried to live as a masculine woman. But I couldn't do it because I'm not one. For me, the difference between the two really crystallized when I started reading anti-trans stuff by masculine women.

Basically, there's this assumption that being trans is an extreme form of the struggle masculine women face. They grew up acting like boys, liking the things that boys liked, and living in a society where gender roles are enforced, they were driven to wonder if perhaps they should be boys. But I'm the opposite. I knew I was a boy, and so I came to think I should act like a boy and like the things that boys like.

I don't know if that's really clear. I've been trying to come up with a good way to explain it for a really long time. It's complicated because I have two layers of the gender identity/gender role interaction where most people only deal with one. On the superficial, intellectual level, I've understood that I'm physiologically female and that people expected me to act like a girl since I was a very small child. And I knew I had to make a certain number of concessions to that, no matter what. But on a deeper, emotional level, I knew I was male and I felt like I ought to act like a boy.

So I had trouble really enjoying anything or being part of anything, because if it was boy stuff I was nervous and afraid of disapproval and if it was girl stuff I felt guilty and ashamed. I couldn't help but internalize male gender role expectations and the homophobia and sissyphobia that go with them.

When I tried to take on the "masculine woman" identity, I assumed that it just meant that I could discard the top layer - the expectations of femininity. But when I started trying to do that, I realized there wasn't a woman under there, masculine or otherwise. There was an insecure self-hating sissy boy. I tried covering him back up and then just layering female masculinity on top, but at that point I'd built the tower too high and it just sort of toppled. I had to come to terms with the fact that (a) I'm not all that masculine and (b) I'm not a woman.

I guess what I'm saying is: try to figure out if there's really a woman under there.

Holy crap, thanks for all the responses guys!!  ;D

@Kvall/Arch...In an ideal world, I would want to take T, get top surgery, and live completely as male. I guess what I'm trying to figure out is even if I know that about myself, can I suck it up and stay a "masculine woman" or maybe androgyne, and be happy? I know it's stupid to feel the need to put myself into these little boxes, but I guess I just feel the need to identify with a group, anyone at all. I don't want to be an outcast.

@quicksand...I'm trying to give it time and let things happen how they're supposed to. I guess I'm just impatient lol. I've been out as possibly trans/gender confused to my parents/siblings for almost 3 years, and they still (almost weekly) try to tell me that I'm just a masculine girl and I can be happy being that way. But I don't know how to figure out if I really would be, and if I do, am I just doing it because it's who I am or am I doing it to make them happy?  ???

@insideontheoutside... I'm 20, almost 21. Like I just said, I'm just impatient I spose. I feel like I have my whole life ahead of me and I don't want to ruin it by living a lie or by being unhappy. I feel like I need to figure out who I am, stick a label on myself, and go on with my life RIGHT NOW. I'm tired of waiting to see if things work out. I graduate college next summer and I'll be able to move out and be whoever I want to be. But I can't do that if I don't have any idea who I am. I definitely understand what you're saying about your personal experience, and I want to find out if that would be feasible and comfortable for me.

@Arch (again)...I understand what you're saying about coming to a point where you have to be a bit selfish and do what's right for you no matter the consequences. I'm not to that point yet, I don't think. I still live with my folks, I don't have a significant other, I don't have many friends. My family is pretty much everything right now, and probably for a while. Ummm my therapist is trying to help. But she isn't a gender therapist, just a regular one. I don't know that this is something a therapist can help me with anyway...I think it might just be something I have to man up and figure out on my own.

@kyril...I'm trying to figure out if there's really a woman in me. I just don't really know how to go about that...  :-\

Quote from: kyril on September 11, 2010, 10:51:21 AM
So I had trouble really enjoying anything or being part of anything, because if it was boy stuff I was nervous and afraid of disapproval and if it was girl stuff I felt guilty and ashamed

Same here, it's kind of odd that someone else mentions it.

There isn't really anything to say that everyone else has not covered, but I wish you luck in finding your identity. You seem to identify male, so I expect you to at some point be driven to transition again. It's too bad your family isn't coming around, they don't know what it's like to be trans and how frustrating it can be to be misgendered all of the time. It sounds to me like you are only considering living as a woman because it is easier, but that doesn't mean it's the best option either.

Good luck figuring it out.

What helped me at one point was to think of me in my old age, like 80s, and in a nursing home.  Did I see myself as a little old lady, or a little old man?  And I knew at that point I NEVER wanted to be seen as an old lady, but being an old man appealed to me.

One other thing to think about as you sort things out for yourself.


Jay

Let me make a couple of observations.

First issue. You really feel that you're male and are trying to decide whether you can stand to live as a masculine woman? Think of it this way. You're twenty and could live for another sixty or eighty years. Do you see yourself as being able to hold on for that long, becoming an old woman (instead of an old man) without transitioning?

Do you feel, in your gut, that you can just keep on trucking as a woman, even if you feel that you're not really a woman? You talk about living a lie, being unhappy. Does it make you happy when people call you "he" and "Konnor" and unhappy when they call you "she" and "birthname"? If so, how long do you think you can suppress your maleness? If so, for how long do you think you can let masculinity substitute for maleness? They are not one-to-one and onto.

In some ways, yes, you will be an outcast. But I look at a number of my acquaintances who transitioned more than five years ago. They are normal guys, not outcasts. Right now, I'm early in transition and am STILL going through an I-don't-want-to-be-trans stage. I am insecure enough about myself that I don't want new acquaintances to know about my past. The guys I know who are later in transition tend to be much more relaxed about themselves. In more enlightened parts of the country, the "outcast" label may be largely in our own minds, not in other people's minds. We might have a harder time finding sexual partners, but I don't know. LOTS of people in my local trans community are in relationships. I see both trans and cis partners.

You say that you will graduate from college in a year. Have you changed your name? If not, then I can think of a lot of logistical issues. If you don't transition physically, do you want a masculine name? If you do transition, do you want your college diploma to have a female name on it? How easy is it to change your name retroactively on your school records and diploma? As far as that goes, what about work history and credit history? Perhaps I'm not being fair, asking about logistical concerns when the issue is more psychological. But finding out some of this stuff can actually help you to decide how serious you are.

Finally, therapy. I do feel that most of us get to our own decision point without direct outside intervention. I mean, it's a personal journey. However, a good therapist can facilitate the process, ask the right questions, make us stop and think when we get too impatient or headstrong, and help us to figure out what the most important questions, answers, and issues are. If your therapist isn't sufficiently facilitating your self-exploration and your decision-making process, then you could wallow in pain and indecision for a lot longer than you need to.

You're still quite young. On the one hand, I'm thinking, "No time to waste!" But that's a retroactive thing--IF you are truly a guy, then you ought to live happily for as long as possible and build up as much of an "appropriate" (male) youth/past to make your future easier. And on the other hand, I'm thinking, "You have time, Konnor. Take it. Take all the time you need. If you're a guy, you need time to figure it out. If you're not, you need time to figure it out."

There's just no substitute for time.

Quote from: sneakersjay on September 11, 2010, 02:55:10 PM
What helped me at one point was to think of me in my old age, like 80s, and in a nursing home.  Did I see myself as a little old lady, or a little old man? 

Heh. We cross-posted the same idea. Well, it's not new on these boards. Maybe we should have a "questions to ask yourself" entry in the wiki or somewhere. "What would you do if you knew you wouldn't lose anything?" "How do you see yourself in old age?" Like that.

A few months before my final year-and-a-half decline, I caught a glimpse of myself in the mirror at work. My students and a lot of colleagues all thought I was around thirty, but I was really forty-four. In one way, it was cool, having people think I was fifteen years younger than I was. In another way, it was scary. I knew the truth. I looked in the bathroom mirror that day and saw unmistakable signs of aging. A couple of incipient wrinkles, slacker skin, and my first gray hair, which I yanked out--not because it was gray but because I wanted to look more closely at it and determine whether it was just another blond hair.

It was gray. And I thought, "Arch, you're going to be an OLD WOMAN."

I only thought about it for a few seconds. I was deeply recloseted. But this thought shook me to my marrow.

No. No. NO.

Funnily enough it was a post about growing old as a woman on here that made me decide i was doing the right thing almost a year ago. Yes i still think sometimes it would be easier to carry on as i am but it would also be a slow death of me. A little bit more of me dying each time i get she'd or her'ed. i'm not just masculine- i'm a man and nothing is ever gonna change that

Quote from: Arch on September 11, 2010, 03:06:33 PM
Maybe we should have a "questions to ask yourself" entry in the wiki or somewhere. "What would you do if you knew you wouldn't lose anything?" "How do you see yourself in old age?" Like that.

That's a great idea.

Quote from: Arch on September 10, 2010, 11:40:43 PM
My friends who transitioned got to a point where they were willing to risk their family and their future love life because they couldn't go on as they were.

This is the point I got to at the end of last year. I realised then that even if I did lose everyone and everything in my life, I couldn't carry on the way I was, any more. It just wasn't enough. I wouldn't be happy losing my family, but I would be even less happy forcing myself to live as female for the rest of my life.

But that wasn't always the case, and it may just be the case that the timing isn't right for you (Konnor) yet. It's not a decision you have to make now or never, you can put it off until later. Maybe in time, you'll become more settled about it.

Thanks again for all the advice everyone!!

@sneakers/Arch...I guess I don't really know. Ideally, I would definitely be an old man. This is going to sound horrible, but I feel like I can either live my life as a guy, OR I can live as a masculine woman and get married/have kids. I'm really afraid that if I transition I will be alone forever because no one can deal with all my issues. (trans, depression, anxiety, etc) I guess I'm just a bit jaded from my relationship history, because they have all left because of trans-related issues and I'm not even really out yet.

@Arch...Thank you for your response, it really made me think. I don't really care about the name, yeah I like Konnor but my birthname is ok. But I do like male pronouns. The name thing is what makes me wonder if I could be ok as a masculine female, getting mistaken for a guy but still basically living as a woman. I get what you're saying about the outcast label, and it makes me feel better that you have a lot of trans mates that are happy and in relationships.

I haven't changed my name yet. I'm pretty far from a step that big. I'm only out to my parents, siblings, GLBT group at school, exes, and a few very close friends. I have a huge Catholic family whom I will probably have to come out to all at once, and the outlook is not good that they will support me or even let me stay "in the family". I honestly don't know about the name stuff at my school, but it's very small so I don't think it would be too big of a deal to change my name.

Yeah, I know what you mean about my therapist. I've been going to her since I was like 10 though, and she knows my past and how my brain works. I just hate to give all that up in order to find someone who is better versed in transgender related topics. Plus the closest gender therapist is about 2 hours away, and I seriously doubt my parents would let me see someone specifically for my trans issues. I know I just need to give it time, but it's hard to try to live life in this limbo. I just want to pick a side and get on with my life.

Thanks again everyone. I really appreciate all the personal stories. It makes me feel less alone.  :)

Quote from: konman on September 12, 2010, 12:15:01 PM
I'm really afraid that if I transition I will be alone forever because no one can deal with all my issues. (trans, depression, anxiety, etc)

I would assume you'd be more depressed/anxious if you had to live as somebody you knew yourself to not be. Of course, I don't know, but that's how it seems to work.

I know of another aspect that a lot of younger guys don't seem to consider. When they are young, they are frequently "mistaken" for male. Even into our thirties, we might be seen by lots of people as a teenager with a delayed puberty. Then we start to get older, and that happens less and less often. If our bodies settle into middle age, our chests tend to get bigger, and so do our hips and other parts of the body. Our voices never change and our beards never sprout. Suddenly we realize that nobody has called us "sir" or "he" in a long, long time.

When I was younger, those "he" moments went a long way toward keeping me sane enough to keep going. Then they mostly stopped--well, the "mistakes" happened less and less frequently. Many factors led to my last coming out and my decision to transition. That was one of them.

I've seen quite a few young guys on these boards (and a couple in person) who blustered around and bragged, "I pass just fine. I don't need transition." Well, the vast majority of them won't "pass" forever. And who wants to be mistaken for a late-blooming fourteen-year-old at thirty-two? That can have its own frustrations, at least for some of us. So if even occasional "passing" is important to you, just know that unless you're very unusual and lucky, it won't go on forever.

Konnor, I'm not trying to influence you one way or the other. I am NOT pushing you toward transition. But there are lots of angles you might not have considered. Adding up little bits of knowledge and other people's experiences helps you to make a more informed choice. I gather that this is why you started this thread in the first place.

Oh, and have you visited the androgyne part of town? The awesome folks there might have much more insight into certain things than the transsexuals do.

Quote from: Silver on September 12, 2010, 12:22:15 PM
I would assume you'd be more depressed/anxious if you had to live as somebody you knew yourself to not be. Of course, I don't know, but that's how it seems to work.

Ditto...but you're talking about KNOWLEDGE, yes? I guess my question for Konnor is this: are you a confirmed transsexual who is simply deciding whether to transition, or are you still deciding whether you're transsexual at all? Or something else entirely, like an androgyne or a transsexual who can choose not to transition, or someone who wants to transition only partly or start HRT and then stop or have breast reduction instead of total removal? You actually have lots of choices with regard to how long you want to go on HRT and which procedures you'll undergo. You can't precisely pinpoint HRT effects, but you can get pretty close.

One thing that helped me to decide to start HRT was the knowledge that I could stop at any time. Surgery is a bit different, but you can always get implants after top surgery if you later decide that you wanted those body parts after all. Implants are not the same, of course, and the cost of having two top surgeries is something to consider, but you can mostly go back at that point. (Bottom surgery is a whole other ball game.)

Pardon my interloping here but I think it depends on how you feel about your physical appearance actually. At least it did for me!

I transitioned kind of ItF (intersex to female) precisely because I wanted to be a (moderately) masculine woman and wasn't happy being a middle of the road pseudo male.

Ok I'm a long way from being "butch" but I am definitely a tomboy, I am ULTRA low maintenance, and I am very practical and down to earth. Yet physically it was terribly important to me that my body was clearly perceived as unambiguously female.

For example this afternoon I spend my time stripping down and rebuilding a 3.5 HP Briggs & Stratton Lawn Mower engine. loads of oil - loads of cuts and bruises - loads of mild swearing! I haven't had so much fun for ages!  :laugh:

So my five cents opinion is that whatever direction you transition in the need to physically transition actually has very little correlation with your need to be a particular gender and everything to do with your need to be seen as a particular SEX.

@Arch...Bleh! I never thought of some of the stuff you posted about, obviously. Yeah I pass now but you're right, I don't want to look like a 14 year old forever. It's ok for people to think I'm 16 now, when I'm only 20, but I reckon it will drive me absolutely mad when I'm like 30. I will definitely check out the androgyne boards, haven't done much of that yet.

Quoteare you a confirmed transsexual who is simply deciding whether to transition, or are you still deciding whether you're transsexual at all? Or something else entirely, like an androgyne or a transsexual who can choose not to transition, or someone who wants to transition only partly or start HRT and then stop or have breast reduction instead of total removal?

I guess I'm trying to figure out everything. I do think I am trans, because of the way I view my body/prefer male pronouns/desire T and top surgery/desire to be seen as male. So I guess I'm trying to figure out if I can be happy without transitioning, being an androgyne, or just being a very masculine female.

@rejennyrated...I am ok with my physical appearance right now. But that's because I can bind and pack and be completely read as male to those who don't know me. I think maybe when I get older and don't pass as easily, that will get to me. I understand what you're saying that just because I have some "female" traits, I can still be a guy. Thanks for your story. :)

Thanks again everyone!!!

Quote from: Arch on September 12, 2010, 12:46:31 PM
I know of another aspect that a lot of younger guys don't seem to consider. When they are young, they are frequently "mistaken" for male. Even into our thirties, we might be seen by lots of people as a teenager with a delayed puberty. Then we start to get older, and that happens less and less often. If our bodies settle into middle age, our chests tend to get bigger, and so do our hips and other parts of the body. Our voices never change and our beards never sprout. Suddenly we realize that nobody has called us "sir" or "he" in a long, long time.

This is another one that you can't really apply to everyone (and I'm definitely not young, even though I still look it - chalk that up to good genes though). Seriously, a lot of female-bodied people look more male as they age because of less estrogen production. Hell I know some ladies that have some pretty epic chin beards going on and they're not even trying - they're just like, 50  or something. Hormones change a lot the older you get.

I also think exercise is really important. The older you get the harder it is to lose fat - and if you have a female body there are certain areas the fat goes to. So I think if I keep up with exercising and staying fit before I get old, I don't think it's a problem. Actually, I'm pretty sure it won't be a problem for me personally (genetics + health + lifestyle).

Quote from: insideontheoutside on September 13, 2010, 12:05:01 AMThis is another one that you can't really apply to everyone

I hope you're not under the misapprehension that I was saying this about everyone. I was very careful to qualify my statements.

Quote from: insideontheoutside on September 13, 2010, 12:05:01 AMI also think exercise is really important. The older you get the harder it is to lose fat - and if you have a female body there are certain areas the fat goes to. So if you keep up with exercising and staying fit before you get old, I don't think it's a problem. Actually, I'm pretty sure it won't be a problem (genetics + health + lifestyle).

Yes, this obviously isn't a problem for anybody, regardless of body style, metabolism, or hormone production. ::)

Quote from: Arch on September 13, 2010, 11:48:06 AM
I hope you're not under the misapprehension that I was saying this about everyone. I was very careful to qualify my statements.

Eh, I took it a little differently. "A lot" I consider to be a majority kind of qualifier.

As for the exercise part, I was tired when I wrote that and forgot to mention that was personal for ME so I went back and added that. Still, no reason to be snotty about it. I realize some people have problems with exercising, but nevertheless it is one way to avoid age-related body issues.

Quote from: insideontheoutside on September 13, 2010, 01:32:59 PMEh, I took it a little differently. "A lot" I consider to be a majority kind of qualifier.

It was a "majority kind of qualifier." But it wasn't an absolute. And there were a few other qualifiers as well.

QuoteStill, no reason to be snotty about it.

I added the eyerolling emoticon so that you would know that I was gently poking you, not smacking you.

Quote from: Arch on September 13, 2010, 04:28:25 PM
I added the eyerolling emoticon so that you would know that I was gently poking you, not smacking you.

Yeah that's cool. I guess I've just been feeling more and more that I don't really fit in and that my viewpoints are just different and a lot of times I'll say something and it's taken the wrong way.

What a completely fascinating thread - I send hugs to all of you.  My daughter Elizabeth, now Eli, has identified as male all her adult life and though I still see a beautiful woman in him, he passes easily.  Whenever he comes home, friends from the "olden days" assume he's his twin brother, Daniel!  I'm constantly amazed that he passes so well.  He STILL has ID that says Elizabeth, however, and I sometimes think is amused by confounding people at airports, etc., car rental agencies, etc.  He used to get really annoyed if family members inadvertently lapsed and used the wrong pronouns, and REALLY freaked if someone addressed him as "Liz" in front of a crowd (like his neighbours in New York) who never even considered him anything other than male!  But, since he's been in a relationship for a while with a level headed girl, he seems more relaxed with everything and everyone.  "Whatever" seems to be his attitude.  "I'll be whatever you want me to be - s'OK!" 
Still, we (family) work really hard at trying to see him as Eli and not "slipping".  I sometimes think that allowing people to think he's his twin is a way of avoiding the whole matter of explaining things.  I'm frankly hoping that one day he'll tackle the topic head on.  I've practised telling my own peers that I have a transgendered child getting everything from no reaction whatsoever to being asked what' it's like to have an "abomination" as progeny.  Gawd.  Once in a while, someone is curious enough to ask intelligent questions, but by and large - it's not a topic with which many are comfortable.  But, anyway - as far as this thread goes - Eli has always felt like a boy, though - he tells me - didn't always have the vocal skills to explain.  He's still emerging. Defintely a lot happier without boobs, but not apparently concerned about further reassignment surgery.  I suspect that eventually he'll change his name legally because one he goes to work, it will makre more sense.  However, there's always the possibility he'll continue to enjoy confounding people!  And, on that topic - I think I'll start another thread discussing "exhibitionistic behavior"!

Quote from: Sheila R on September 13, 2010, 05:44:24 PM
What a completely fascinating thread - I send hugs to all of you.  My daughter Elizabeth, now Eli, has identified as male all her adult life and though I still see a beautiful woman in him, he passes easily.  Whenever he comes home, friends from the "olden days" assume he's his twin brother, Daniel!  I'm constantly amazed that he passes so well.  He STILL has ID that says Elizabeth, however, and I sometimes think is amused by confounding people at airports, etc., car rental agencies, etc.  He used to get really annoyed if family members inadvertently lapsed and used the wrong pronouns, and REALLY freaked if someone addressed him as "Liz" in front of a crowd (like his neighbours in New York) who never even considered him anything other than male!  But, since he's been in a relationship for a while with a level headed girl, he seems more relaxed with everything and everyone.  "Whatever" seems to be his attitude.  "I'll be whatever you want me to be - s'OK!" 
Still, we (family) work really hard at trying to see him as Eli and not "slipping".  I sometimes think that allowing people to think he's his twin is a way of avoiding the whole matter of explaining things.  I'm frankly hoping that one day he'll tackle the topic head on.  I've practised telling my own peers that I have a transgendered child getting everything from no reaction whatsoever to being asked what' it's like to have an "abomination" as progeny.  Gawd.  Once in a while, someone is curious enough to ask intelligent questions, but by and large - it's not a topic with which many are comfortable.  But, anyway - as far as this thread goes - Eli has always felt like a boy, though - he tells me - didn't always have the vocal skills to explain.  He's still emerging. Defintely a lot happier without boobs, but not apparently concerned about further reassignment surgery.  I suspect that eventually he'll change his name legally because one he goes to work, it will makre more sense.  However, there's always the possibility he'll continue to enjoy confounding people!  And, on that topic - I think I'll start another thread discussing "exhibitionistic behavior"!

Eli's really lucky to have you as a parent :) So many parents are just unwilling at all to accept that the little girl they gave birth to might not have been a little girl after all. I know I never really dealt with my parents about it because of the feeling that they just couldn't deal with it 100% (even though they allowed me to dress/act how I wanted to, there was a line for them). Luckily I got to that "whatever" point that Eli has on my own. Unfortunately I think we're all still a ways off as a society in general for 100% acceptance. I'm continually reminded how much society places on gender roles, etc.

Anyway, thanks for stopping by and telling us all that!

Quote from: Kvall on September 10, 2010, 08:06:02 PM
I guess I am in the minority because I feel like the difference is pretty clear. Being FTM does not mean butch+, it means you are male gendered and/or transitioning physically toward male. I think the difference should be obvious when you realize that not all trans men are masculine. Some are feminine, just like some cis men are feminine.

Well I agree with you, so maybe we can be a minority together ;)

I think that yes there are lots of other identities too, but FTM is a very clear cut one. You have a female body but you're male. Rather you choose to transition in any way (physically or socially) is up to you, but no matter what choice you make you are still male when it comes to your gender identity. If your gender identity is not male then you are not FTM. It is not a big open identity, it's a very specific one, just because all of us don't follow the same path doesn't make the definition of what we are any different. We are people born into a female body who have a male brain.

I also do want to state that this response isn't really about you Konnor, obviously you are still trying to find yourself and that's cool. I don't want you to feel that this is me stating "no you're not FTM" you very well may be (not being you I obviously can't say what your gender identity is), with time you'll find the right path for you. There is nothing wrong with not being a woman and still not being FTM, there are things in between the two. However rather you choose to transition or not if you are male, if you see yourself as male, feel male, etc, you are still FTM.... it isn't the physical transition that makes a man a man :)

You'll find your way with time Konnor. Don't let fear rule your choices. And don't let the fear of who could love you for who you are hold you back either. There are lots of people who will love you for you regardless of rather you're physically male, female or somewhere in between. Do what you need to do for you, the more you accept yourself and act as yourself the more likely you are to find someone who really loves YOU because they'll be able to see who you are instead of what you may be pretending to be for others.

I feel like my last post was kind of random things mixed into one post? I don't know. I'm going to check back later and maybe try to respond again, I'm in a somewhat tired distracted mood and couldn't really keep my thoughts together and type them out too :)

Quote from: insideontheoutside on September 13, 2010, 04:45:11 PMYeah that's cool. I guess I've just been feeling more and more that I don't really fit in and that my viewpoints are just different and a lot of times I'll say something and it's taken the wrong way.

Oh, dear. Maybe I've been coming across as more bristly than I realize. I apologize. I like good, healthy debate, and you can't really have that if everyone agrees.

We're all a little different. No two transsexuals are alike. Thank heaven. What would the trans world be like with hundreds of Arches running around? >>>Shudder<<<

(No, not the golden kind.)

With the golden kind at least we would all be well fed.... well so long as they have decent salad for our veggie eaters :)

Quote from: Sheila R on September 13, 2010, 05:44:24 PM
What a completely fascinating thread - I send hugs to all of you.  My daughter Elizabeth, now Eli, has identified as male all her adult life and though I still see a beautiful woman in him, he passes easily.  Whenever he comes home, friends from the "olden days" assume he's his twin brother, Daniel!  I'm constantly amazed that he passes so well.  He STILL has ID that says Elizabeth, however, and I sometimes think is amused by confounding people at airports, etc., car rental agencies, etc.  He used to get really annoyed if family members inadvertently lapsed and used the wrong pronouns, and REALLY freaked if someone addressed him as "Liz" in front of a crowd (like his neighbours in New York) who never even considered him anything other than male!  But, since he's been in a relationship for a while with a level headed girl, he seems more relaxed with everything and everyone.  "Whatever" seems to be his attitude.  "I'll be whatever you want me to be - s'OK!" 
Still, we (family) work really hard at trying to see him as Eli and not "slipping".  I sometimes think that allowing people to think he's his twin is a way of avoiding the whole matter of explaining things.  I'm frankly hoping that one day he'll tackle the topic head on.  I've practised telling my own peers that I have a transgendered child getting everything from no reaction whatsoever to being asked what' it's like to have an "abomination" as progeny.  Gawd.  Once in a while, someone is curious enough to ask intelligent questions, but by and large - it's not a topic with which many are comfortable.  But, anyway - as far as this thread goes - Eli has always felt like a boy, though - he tells me - didn't always have the vocal skills to explain.  He's still emerging. Defintely a lot happier without boobs, but not apparently concerned about further reassignment surgery.  I suspect that eventually he'll change his name legally because one he goes to work, it will makre more sense.  However, there's always the possibility he'll continue to enjoy confounding people!  And, on that topic - I think I'll start another thread discussing "exhibitionistic behavior"!

Man, I got a bit of a fright reading that since that's my birth name and chosen name!  I hope my mum will be as supportive as you.

Quote from: Arch on September 14, 2010, 12:46:20 AM
Oh, dear. Maybe I've been coming across as more bristly than I realize. I apologize. I like good, healthy debate, and you can't really have that if everyone agrees.

We're all a little different. No two transsexuals are alike. Thank heaven. What would the trans world be like with hundreds of Arches running around? >>>Shudder<<<

(No, not the golden kind.)

No worries :)

Sheila, I agree that Eli is super lucky to have you. I also have a twin, but she's my sister. So no accidental passing as her!  ::)

Cowboi, I thought your post made complete sense. Thank you for your post. I don't really think that figuring out my gender identity is the issue, I guess I'm more trying to figure out what to do about it now that I know I'm male. Can I live without transitioning? I dunno. I'm not making much sense right now. I guess you are all right and I just need to give it time! Thanks again for all the replies!!

Quote from: konman on September 14, 2010, 06:17:54 PM
Cowboi, I thought your post made complete sense. Thank you for your post. I don't really think that figuring out my gender identity is the issue, I guess I'm more trying to figure out what to do about it now that I know I'm male. Can I live without transitioning? I dunno. I'm not making much sense right now. I guess you are all right and I just need to give it time! Thanks again for all the replies!!

It is definitely an issue of time. For me I always thought transitioning physically was unnecessary, I spent 6 years living as male before I finally chose to pursue HRT and SRS. When the decision was made it was pretty sudden, like one day I just realized that I did want to and had been hiding behind the idea I was okay without doing it for other people. I had a lot of the same concerns, how it would change my relationship with my family and friends, who would be able to love me for me.... that kind of stuff. In the end it's an answer we find for ourselves. After coming as far as I have (3 years on T and hopefully less than 2 more before my top surgery) I realize that even if I had been able to live without transitioning I am definitely happier in life now that I am transitioning, if that makes sense. I guess what I'm saying is that I could have been happy either way, but I'm happiest this way :)