Susan's Place Transgender Resources

I find myself disliking the person. If I get 'ma'amed', suddenly that restaurant, shop, etc looks a lot less appealing and I'm tempted to leave. And I don't look very kindly on the person. I wish I didn't feel that way, because I know they aren't trying to insult me; they just see what they see. Anybody else deal with these feelings? I get an instant dislike of some poor soul as if they've just insulted me. But I know they haven't. They have no idea. How can I turn these feelings off and not let them affect my meal, etc?

Another thing is when I'm 'ma'amed', I know they must be thinking I'm one heck of an ugly woman what with the hairyness and beer gut and all. That just adds to my dysphoria. Being mistaken for an attractive woman was one thing, being mistaken for an ugly woman now is unbearable.

Quote from: Nero on September 13, 2010, 06:18:09 AM
I find myself disliking the person. If I get 'ma'amed', suddenly that restaurant, shop, etc looks a lot less appealing and I'm tempted to leave. And I don't look very kindly on the person. I wish I didn't feel that way, because I know they aren't trying to insult me; they just see what they see. Anybody else deal with these feelings? I get an instant dislike of some poor soul as if they've just insulted me. But I know they haven't. They have no idea. How can I turn these feelings off and not let them affect my meal, etc?

Another thing is when I'm 'ma'amed', I know they must be thinking I'm one heck of an ugly woman what with the hairyness and beer gut and all. That just adds to my dysphoria. Being mistaken for an attractive woman was one thing, being mistaken for an ugly woman now is unbearable.

Hm, haven't had that since I started growing a beard. Even former work colleagues don't recognize me even if I still have the same haircut, clothes, glasses. Can you let it grow?

I tend to feel...uncomfortable when I'm misgendered and originally thought I looked good. Like, when I get dressed, bind my chest right, feel good about how I look only to be called "miss" or "ma'am" just...brings me down a lot. I will say that unfortunately the days where I am feeling good about how I look are rare so usually I'm feeling crappy to begin with and it doesn't really change my mood.

There've been a couple of times in the past year that I wondered whether a stranger was misgendering me. Once it was in the chaos at the checkout at the closest grocery store; I'm still pretty sure that the gal called me "ma'am," but it was a peak period, there were people all over, I was juggling the club card and the credit card...I let it pass because, really, what can you do in a situation like that, especially if you're not quite sure?

But I remember thinking, "Good thing this isn't my usual grocery store." Even now, when I walk over there to pick up something, the experience resonates and I wonder if someone there will call me "Ms. Lastname." (Which is kind of  silly because they have access to my full name from the club card, and my first name is about as masculine as it can get.) Yeah, it can really stay with you.

Do you address the misread or just let it pass? If you just let it go, then it has the potential to fester. If you address it, you correct the person, assert yourself (nicely), and maybe open the possibility of going to that business again.

If it's one hundred percent certain that the person is reading you as female and is addressing you that way, can you try to treat the occasion with humor and see how that goes? Stroke your chin and say, "Maybe I should grow my beard out" or laugh and say, "Yes, sir" to a female. Treat it like it's a funny mistake, no big deal, and you give them the chance to laugh it off too--and address you properly the next time.

I haven't had a good opportunity to test this strategy, but it seems pretty sound. Humor and even a little self-deprecation can go a long way.

If the place still leaves a bad taste in your mouth, I don't know what to tell you. Give it some time, I guess.

Quote from: Arch on September 13, 2010, 01:11:19 PM
There've been a couple of times in the past year that I wondered whether a stranger was misgendering me. Once it was in the chaos at the checkout at the closest grocery store; I'm still pretty sure that the gal called me "ma'am," but it was a peak period, there were people all over, I was juggling the club card and the credit card...I let it pass because, really, what can you do in a situation like that, especially if you're not quite sure?

But I remember thinking, "Good thing this isn't my usual grocery store." Even now, when I walk over there to pick up something, the experience resonates and I wonder if someone there will call me "Ms. Lastname." (Which is kind of  silly because they have access to my full name from the club card, and my first name is about as masculine as it can get.) Yeah, it can really stay with you.

Do you address the misread or just let it pass? If you just let it go, then it has the potential to fester. If you address it, you correct the person, assert yourself (nicely), and maybe open the possibility of going to that business again.

If it's one hundred percent certain that the person is reading you as female and is addressing you that way, can you try to treat the occasion with humor and see how that goes? Stroke your chin and say, "Maybe I should grow my beard out" or laugh and say, "Yes, sir" to a female. Treat it like it's a funny mistake, no big deal, and you give them the chance to laugh it off too--and address you properly the next time.

I haven't had a good opportunity to test this strategy, but it seems pretty sound. Humor and even a little self-deprecation can go a long way.

If the place still leaves a bad taste in your mouth, I don't know what to tell you. Give it some time, I guess.

Mostly I don't correct them. I guess I just feel embarrassed. I could try your suggestion though  :laugh:. As a side note, I had a purple shirt on the last time it happened. Think that contributed?  :laugh:

oh same here.  I have gone to ihop twice with my boyfriend and was 'miss'ed by the same guy both times, and now I have a sour feeling towards that waiter and ihop.

I do find myself not liking someone after they refer to me as a girl.  Even if its someone I liked, then they go and do that, and I will have a resentment towards them.

for example, my friends could ask me how i feel about so and so, and imagine this person called me 'she' well i would tell my friends "that person sucks" and I wouldn't really have a good reason as to why they suck, only that i feel very offented and insulted by them.

and yes, the ugly woman thing, I totally understand that. whenever anyone calls me she, i just think that they just think i am the weirdest 'girl'

I haven't tried this, as I haven't been misgendered in a while, but Dennis had suggested to say 'Excuse me?' in your deep voice.  That will usually get them to correct themselves.  I purposely let my beard grow out, though it's not as full as I'd like.

Jay

There's an administrative assistant at school who, I'm pretty sure, isn't with the program yet. Only once recently has she had occasion to use a pronoun to refer to me, and I wasn't sure whether she was telling the tech guys to help me or the female colleague who was there ahead of me. There were three tech guys I had never seen before, so they were interchangeable to me. I don't know which one the AA was talking to--it could have been the guy who went with the female colleague, or it could have been my guy.

Given her history of forgetting to use the right pronoun, the AA might well have done it again. I was already working hard not to hold it against her--the last time I had seen her was a good six or eight months earlier, not exactly recently--but I kept telling myself not to assume that she was, you know, the antichrist. >:-)

She's a nice gal, very personable, but now I grit my teeth whenever I go in there. If she had been a waitress or a cashier, I would definitely want to avoid her restaurant or store just because of the bad associations. So now I'm just waiting for her to slip up again--as if it's inevitable! that's how much resentment I have!--and do it in such a way that it's quite clear that she's talking about me so that I can correct her.

Why I cannot just drop this and take a wait-and-see attitude, I'll never know. I guess I feel like you do, Nero.  :(

P.S. When it comes to this gal, any aspirations I might have to take a humorous approach go right out the window. So much for taking my own advice.

I think the worst is when I initially calls me sir, and then starts apologizing and going out of their way to call me ma'am or miss.  It generally puts me in a great mood for a second, then I become super annoyed quick, and generally try to get out of there quick. 

I was at a sandwich shop once where one person took my order, and another made the sandwich.  The first woman did the "Sir, im sorry, Ma'am" thing, while the second was saying he the whole time.  I found the whole thing pretty amusing cause they seemed so confused about who the other person was talking about.

I've been there. For me though something changed in my head awhile back where it began to affect me a lot less - like I didn't take it to heart. But it had to be a universal thing in my life. Across the board I've decided that I was not going to let other people's opinions or observations effect my well-being. I realized I was fighting a losing battle with trying to make people perceive me a certain way. I have a bio-male friend who's been mistaken for a women in some instances (or has taken some crappy comments about looking female or having female mannerisms). I realized that no matter what gender you are people are going to form opinions based on their perception or life experience and make judgments that may not be correct. In short, it was a constant battle where I had taken this righteous viewpoint that everyone should bend to my will and see it my way. In reality, they're always going to see it their way and I'm always going to see it my way and sometimes those two viewpoints will match up and a lot of times they will not. But me getting upset about it, trying to wage some personal war against it, or trying to change people's behavior was not working out.

If you're transitioning or even if you have transitioned and someone still calls you a female for any reason, you have to question why that is still upsetting you. Is it because you think transition is failing you or is it because you hated the female parts so much that any time it comes up again it also brings up all those negative emotions? The thing that helped me is realizing that it was not a failure on my part. It wasn't something that I had to let ruin my day or called my sexuality into question simply because some mindless store clear called me, "miss".

What I've left out is actual prejudice - which unfortunately does happen. But this assumes that the person knows you or your situation and is purposely doing things to upset, make fun of, etc. etc. That's a tougher situation and one that even I would avoid a business because of.

Quote from: insideontheoutside on September 13, 2010, 04:35:04 PMor is it because you hated the female parts so much that any time it comes up again it also brings up all those negative emotions?

For me, this. In spades. It's been getting the upper hand. Seems like the longer I am in transition, the more I react to random female stuff, like being cut off in traffic by women or possibly being "she'd" by a store clerk. It's times like these that I wish I could take out my aggressions at the batting cages, but my wrist won't take that kind of punishment. Grr.

Quote from: Arch on September 14, 2010, 12:52:11 AM
It's times like these that I wish I could take out my aggressions at the batting cages, but my wrist won't take that kind of punishment. Grr.

Oh I bought a punching bag! lol course I guess that could be bad on the wrists unless you wrap them really good.

As for the female parts, there's no question there's times I despise mine. I have to fall back on my imagination in those times.

This will always be a strange situation, I have been asked what did you want to order sir/ sorry Mam in gay clubs.  I now ignore them. Spiteful people who wish to be spiteful have brains of manure. There is little you can do for these fools. Ignore them.

Why Nero do you have a beer gut :o I thought we were being healthy >:(. Do I have to mother you ::) ::)

A guy has to grow up.

Hugs

Cindy

Quote from: kyle_lawrence on September 13, 2010, 04:05:29 PM
I think the worst is when I initially calls me sir, and then starts apologizing and going out of their way to call me ma'am or miss.  It generally puts me in a great mood for a second, then I become super annoyed quick, and generally try to get out of there quick. 

Me too.  I'm not sure that I get upset with the person so much as I get embarrassed with my looking like a girl, though.  They're just calling me as they see me, and it just serves as a reminder.

I used to let this bother me till I put myself in the other persons shoes. We are not mind readers, so, the people that see me come into a store have no idea who or what I am. I can't hold it against THEM that I was born in the wrong body and still look feminine at times. I can't hold it against them that they don't know what to call me till I, very politely, with a smile, help them when they are looking at me so lost and confused. I feel bad for others when one of us comes in and EXPECTS people to get it off the bat. It's unfair to them, especially if they have no other experience with someone like us. This is new. This is scary. This is confusing to most people. If I was working and a trans came in my line and I didn't know if they were trans...I wouldn't know what to call them either if they were still on the not obvious spectrum (ie. Pre-T, no facial hair, etc. etc.), as far as looks. Is that a transman? Or is that a butch dyke? If I call a butch dyke 'Sir'...she might deck me. If I call a transman 'Ma'am'..well, I might send him home with severe dysphoric depression and he too might either deck me or yell at me.

I have learned and found that most people if corrected, with kindness, understanding, compassion and without our own prejudgements of, "Ohhhhh it's obvious! They have to know! They are doing this on purpose." And all the other prejudgements I see within our community, that people WILL indeed open up a bit more because you did in fact come across to them like a respectful human being. Patience is a key here. It's going to take a bit to get people to understand. We are the pioneers gentlemen...Our legacy are our brothers behind us..what will we be leaving them to deal with in our wake?

Just my two cents

Yes, yes, yes, yes.
And no, I haven't figured out how to control it.

I find it frustrating beyond belief for the insta-hate reaction as well as guilt about feeling that way for what I consider irrational reasons (precisely because of what Bones outlined).

I avoid places, people, phone calls ... Right now in particular I'm wavering about my job.  I just started my "vacation" for top surgery, I have a month off, and I'm thinking it's going to be decision time when I get back--coming out and thus ending the misgendering or just quiting outright.  What gets me is that on my own pre-t I passed ~80% and now that I'm on t that percentage has gone up.  So when I encounter a newbie at work I generally get he'd, however through others intervention it gets undone, so I end up double raging about it, because it is through no fault of my 'presentation'-even being as short as I am and sporting my shaggy 'do, I pass-and I love that.  So I'm on a lovely rollercoaster--he'd: I frigging love you, I want to talk to you, joke with you, be friendly with you--she'd: it's a big game of avoidance and I don't what any interaction with you above what it takes to get our jobs done, because I don't want your pronouns and I don't want to accidentally let it you know that I 'hate' you for them.

Along with instant reaction, I also get the slow acclimation of hate for someone.  I can like them as much as I want from a removed point of view but over time it goes bad.  I get on well with someone at work who I've known for four years, who, because I didn't reveal what surgery I was going to be out for, asked me three times-making sure that I wasn't going to die while I was away.  We have a pretty good, joking friendship and I assured her there was very little chance of that and she turned to me, completely serious faced, saying that she'd be sad if anything happened to me.  Which is pretty heavy for me--and it kills me, because I know that if I, for whatever reason, lost complete contact for now and forever, with her (or any of these other people I know) I would be able to go on like nothing happened.  I am that emotionally on-hold for people in general because I don't what to invest anything in a relationship that can go that sour for me with the slip of a pronoun.

Quote from: Elijah on September 13, 2010, 01:47:02 PMI totally understand that. whenever anyone calls me she, i just think that they just think i am the weirdest 'girl'

This.

Also when straight men start hitting on me. ARE YOU KIDDING ME? *headdesk*
I can't take the people who do that seriously after, since their obviouslly either blind or trying to play games with me.

I had to come out to a social worker yesterday due to some government stuff.  She was mostly okay and just curious, because she didn't know much about trans stuff, but she kept calling me "sir" and "Mr. (LastName)" over and over again.  Sure, I don't look very female and she probably had no idea what she was supposed to call me, but hearing it annoyed me more than it normally does.  I don't know why.

Quote from: Mara on September 21, 2010, 10:39:31 AM
Sure, I don't look very female and she probably had no idea what she was supposed to call me, but hearing it annoyed me more than it normally does.  I don't know why.

Maybe because, after your revelation, she didn't even ask.

I was at a men's meeting the other night, and a trans guy I know showed up. He's clearly pre-transition or so early that no changes have occurred. He left right after the meeting, and some of the guys were speculating about him and calling him "she." They're trans-friendly and mainly just curious (thought he might have wandered into the wrong meeting and been too embarrassed to leave), but I found those "she" references most annoying. (Then, embarrassingly enough, I got tangled up in a sentence later and seemed to refer to yet another possibly-trans person as "it." And guess what? They called me on it. So they're on the right track.)

Anyway, I tend to get really irritated when I think people really SHOULD know better--maybe like a government employee that you just told five minutes ago.

Quote from: Arch on September 21, 2010, 11:32:37 AMThen, embarrassingly enough, I got tangled up in a sentence later and seemed to refer to yet another possibly-trans person as "it." And guess what? They called me on it. So they're on the right track.

Yeah most people don't like being called an 'it'
I'm one of the few people who doesn't mind so much :P

If I'm at a restaurant, "sir" means, "Gosh, no, I don't really want a tip, after all!"

Quote from: insanitylives on September 21, 2010, 07:45:04 PM
Yeah most people don't like being called an 'it'
I'm one of the few people who doesn't mind so much :P

I've read some old British books that used "it" to refer to individuals in a mixed group of children--like, "After every child had had its dinner..." I don't know how common this was because authors can usually write around such usage, but I don't see why we can't use a neutral pronoun to refer to people. And on occasion I've referred to myself this way. On the other hand, I never liked being called "it" or "that" rudely or derisively. That hurt.

I was pretty mortified when I was trying to decide between "Is it right to call J a he?" and "Is J a he or a she?" and wound up saying "Is it a he?" Gah. I've never done that before.

If I'm misgendered I become immediately conscious of the fact that I must look like a badly dressed butch dyke. It's worse if I'm wearing shorts and I'm like "oh god, hairy legs and they see me as a girl arrgh"

Quote from: Arch on September 22, 2010, 12:50:54 AM
I was pretty mortified when I was trying to decide between "Is it right to call J a he?" and "Is J a he or a she?" and wound up saying "Is it a he?" Gah. I've never done that before.

This may happen if you mix two sentences in your mind, don't worry too much about it.

Might have been a sentence from me  ;D. German language knows 3 genders - male, female, neutral. Sometimes the neutral gender ("es" = "it") is used for people as well (like: das Kind, das Mädchen, das Bübchen - it kid, it girl, it little boy). Moreover, in the regional dialect of Saarland, "it" is also used for all women: "Es Gertrud, es Elisabet, es Dorothea..., wo ist es ( = where is she) ". So calling an MTF transsexual an "it" in German is still an insult, but less harsh than in English. I know an MTF from Saarland and she cannot always tell when people want to insult her and when they just use the regional dialect. And I shared a flat with a genderqueer person (body at birth female, unchanged yet) from close to the Saarland border, where they speak this dialect too. 13 years ago or something like this. And this person insisted on being called an "es".

For non-people and non-gendered animals, German uses the 3 genders almost randomly, which is one of the main reasons why learning German is such a pain in the ass.

Quote from: Fencesitter on September 22, 2010, 02:47:15 PMFor non-people and non-gendered animals, German uses the 3 genders almost randomly, which is one of the main reasons why learning German is such a pain in the ass.

believe it or not, that's true with most other languages

Quote from: insanitylives on September 22, 2010, 04:24:32 PM
believe it or not, that's true with most other languages

I believe it, I've studied languages. However, roman languages as soon as you get away from Latin tend to boil down to two genders. Basically. And be very gendered in their speech, which means pre-transition you tend to out yourself accidentally all the time unless you really concentrate on language until you internalize it. Which I never did, as it was "only" my second native language and I got corrected all the time... you're a girl, so use this form etc. Meh.

I envy English native speakers for having such a mostly ungendered language.

Quote from: Fencesitter on September 22, 2010, 04:48:13 PMAnd be very gendered in their speech, which means pre-transition you tend to out yourself accidentally all the time unless you really concentrate on language until you internalize it.

Who said anything about it being an "accident"...

(then again, second language means it's all too easy to misuse gender towards self/inanimete objects (i underrstand it just IS, but it's a pain in thou-est buttock to try to get it right))

I'm at the point now in my transition where I'm androgynous. I'm noticing a distinct pattern:

Males refer to me as male. Females refer to me as female.

It's really making me feel odd. I'm wondering if it's because I'm so androgynous at the moment, that people just assign me to their own gender without thinking much about it.

Quote from: M.Grimm on September 24, 2010, 02:35:05 AM
I'm noticing a distinct pattern:

Males refer to me as male. Females refer to me as female.

really? I seem to get the opposite. age has some influence here (older people of either gender read "girl") but usually girls read boy and boys read girl.