Susan's Place Transgender Resources

Disclaimer: After my second session with my therapist he told me quite honestly that he isn't a gender specialist. He is more than happy to refer me to one if I'd like. But if I want to work on my gender issues as part of discovering my own sense of self then he can help me. That's what I really wanted to do so I've been seeing him for the last few months. It's been working out very well but occasionally I have to explain myself just a little.

He's got a very good idea of who I am as an androgyne but his picture wasn't crystal clear until yesterday. I combined the idea of the gender spectrum with the idea of a color spectrum and he got it. Hopefully this will help others to explain androgyny and to understand it better.

Start with the concept of the gender spectrum, male on one side and female on the other. Normally we think of male as blue and female as pink. When you combine then in equal parts you get purple. I don't know about the rest of you but I'm not very clear on my blue/purple/pink color spectrum. So let's make one small change.

Instead of thinking of female as pink think of it as yellow. As most of us learned as kids yellow and blue make green. Green is technically an equal mix of blue and yellow but you really can't talk about green in terms of yellow or blue. It's its own color right in the middle of the blue/yellow spectrum. So it's neither blue nor yellow because it's both blue and yellow. You can't think of it as a bluish yellow or a yellowish blue. If you lose either of those colors then you no longer have green.

Androgynes aren't sensitive men or strong women, or whatever phrases might lead you to the middle of the gender spectrum. We are something else.

Now, from this point on in my post I'm largely going by my own understanding of how things are. Please correct me if I don't quite have it, and please be gentle if I'm way off the mark here.

The "classic" androgyne is the part of the spectrum where you're just seeing greens; the blue and yellow aren't really pronounced enough to talk about bluish greens and yellowish greens. This is the 50/50-ish androgyne (and I'm not about to get into "exact" ratios here). The androgyny that unites us on this site is where blue and yellow become modifiers for green, i.e. bluish greens and yellowish greens. Green is the "base" color which is modified by yellow or blue. It's that green base that makes us androgynes.

So how does genderqueer fit? I see androgyne as being a subset of genderqueer. Genderqueer includes all the greenish blue and greenish yellow colors. Yes there is green in those colors but blue and yellow are the "base" colors. And genderqueer extends to those points where green subtly shades the blue and yellow. That's where you're talking about people who others might see as TS but they feel they aren't.

OK, so my gender spectrum as color spectrum concept needs some work. But it's a place to start.

So, it sounds like you are saying androgen is it's own gender comprised of aspects from both the male and female genders, but it is not male and it is not female.

Melissa

Quote from: Melissa on December 12, 2006, 11:06:21 AM
So, it sounds like you are saying androgen is it's own gender comprised of aspects from both the male and female genders, but it is not male and it is not female.

That's it exactly.  Most androgynes do not consider themselves to be either male or female, but rather somewhere in between.  (Or, in some cases, both, and in others, neither).  It is a wide-open category with plenty of room for however you see yourself.

An example...I have struggled with this question and have come to this conclusion...Am I a man who exhibits some strong female tendencies (cross dressing, long nails, etc) or am I a transexual female trapped in a man's body, or am I something else?  From the various discussions here and elsewhere, most transexuals cannot stand the body they were born with, and seek to alter it up to and including SRS.  This doesn't apply to me as I am comfortable with my body (and reproductive organs) and have no wish to change it...I also feel that if I were to change it, that it really wouldn't make any difference in how I felt as a female body would not be any more "right" than the male body I currently have, hence, I do not believe myself to be transexual.

So the question remains, Am I a man or something else?  While I can't speak for all the cross dressers out there, how I'm dressed on the outside doesn't change who I am on the inside.  If you are a male who likes to wear ladies clothing, you are still a male, with all the thought patterns and traits of your "typical male" (except you are probably better groomed).  If this were me, why are there times when I feel and behave absolutely female...regardless of dress???  Other times, I am most definitely male...down to the dirty socks in the floor and the love of burning meat on the grill, (let's not mention the joy of power tools).  Because I am both male and female, and feel each very strongly, I am sure I am not just a man with female tendencies...therefore, I am something else...not male, not female.  That only leaves one category...Androgyne.


Casey, your color spectrum is spot on.  Some folks identify themselves as some shade of yellow (female, maybe with some male tendencies).  Some folks identify themselves as some shade of blue (male, possible female tendencies).  And some, like us, are various shades of green.  Personally, I fall into the lighter shades of green, but green none the less.

As far as your question about genderqueer...I don't have a good handle on exactly what that term means (or how it is generally viewed).  I have seen several definitions but they are, at best, confusing and, at worst, contridictory.  Maybe someone else has a better clue on that one and can help us out.

......Laurie

Quote from: Melissa on December 12, 2006, 11:06:21 AM
So, it sounds like you are saying androgen is it's own gender comprised of aspects from both the male and female genders, but it is not male and it is not female.

Melissa

Exactly. And the weird thing is sometimes it's a case of one trait from the male side and one trait from the female side, and sometimes you have both the male and female trait for something.

Quote from: LaurieO on December 12, 2006, 12:56:05 PMMost androgynes do not consider themselves to be either male or female, but rather somewhere in between.  (Or, in some cases, both, and in others, neither).

To put a personal face on this, I know I'm not male or female but I also know I'm SOMETHING. That rules out "neither" for me, and "both" doesn't describe me either. So I say my gender is "other" and let it go at that.

QuoteSo the question remains, Am I a man or something else?  While I can't speak for all the cross dressers out there, how I'm dressed on the outside doesn't change who I am on the inside.  If you are a male who likes to wear ladies clothing, you are still a male, with all the thought patterns and traits of your "typical male" (except you are probably better groomed).  If this were me, why are there times when I feel and behave absolutely female...regardless of dress???  Other times, I am most definitely male...down to the dirty socks in the floor and the love of burning meat on the grill, (let's not mention the joy of power tools).  Because I am both male and female, and feel each very strongly, I am sure I am not just a man with female tendencies...therefore, I am something else...not male, not female.  That only leaves one category...Androgyne.

Nicely put Laurie. As I understand it MTF (used loosely) CDs and TVs know they're male, irregardless of their feelings or the way they dress.

QuoteCasey, your color spectrum is spot on.  Some folks identify themselves as some shade of yellow (female, maybe with some male tendencies).  Some folks identify themselves as some shade of blue (male, possible female tendencies).  And some, like us, are various shades of green.  Personally, I fall into the lighter shades of green, but green none the less.

Thanks. I knew I was onto something when my therapist got that "aha!" look on his face. Me, I'm a medium green.

QuoteAs far as your question about genderqueer...I don't have a good handle on exactly what that term means (or how it is generally viewed).  I have seen several definitions but they are, at best, confusing and, at worst, contridictory.  Maybe someone else has a better clue on that one and can help us out.

Yeah, that's another identity that seems to have a few different meanings. From how I've seen it actually used though, it seems to start around CD/TV where maybe you're gender is the same as your birth sex and maybe it isn't, and it seems to go to just shy of TS. But as I say I could be misunderstanding it.

Quote from: LaurieO on December 12, 2006, 12:56:05 PM
Other times, I am most definitely male...down to the dirty socks in the floor and the love of burning meat on the grill, (let's not mention the joy of power tools).

Hmmm, interesting.  The thing is, I leave dirty socks on the floor, love meat on the grill and power tools, but I still feel and identify as female all of the time.  I feel like having a female body is right for me, but I'm also not ashamed that I used to live as male.  I love being female and being treated as such all the time, it feels very right and I have absolutely no desire to ever live as male again.  I feel as a female, I can continue with all my likes and dislikes.  I just think it's interesting that I seem to share some of those traits, but I identify as female all of the time.  The way I look at it is that whether you have masculine or feminine tendancies is separate from whether you identify as male, female or something else.

Melissa

M'mm... green! I always knew I was green. :icon_mrhappy:

You have found an important truth about Androgynes and gender, Casey!
Let's illuminate your sparkling gem of newfound knowledge:

True, a sliding scale that looks like this...
M                        A                         F
...doesn't accurately illustrate what Androgyne truly means.
The scale above erroneously indicates the more Masculine you are, the less Feminine you are, and vice versa. By using color as an illustration you begin to see that the M-scale and F-scale are two separate scales that can and do overlap! Androgynes are intensely green. We rate high on both the M and F scales!

To put it another way:
A 50/50 saturation mix of blue and yellow will result in a medium green - yes, an Androgyne. Ah, but Androgyny is so much more than that! Androgynes are often closer to a saturation intensity of 100% + 100%.  We are highly saturated with richest blue and brightest yellow, the brilliant illumination of both colors. Androgynes transcend and transform the two hues into lush shining green - which is a color unique to itself! Yes, green is blue + yellow... yet it is neither blue nor yellow... and yet it is both.

Want another gem of insight?
'Androgyne Green' existed long before the division into its separate color components of Blue and Yellow.

Androgyny can also be equated to purest white light. Shine the light through a crystal prism and you will discover Androgyny is the original source of the rainbow spectrum we know as 'gender'.

-Emerald  :icon_mrgreen:

Where does that put me.
I'm blue and now I am yellow. Opps now I am blue again.
As a bi-gender I've have very little saturation.
My wardrobe is but not me.
:) :)
Jillieann (Yellow)/Jr (Blue)

Quote from: Jillieann/JR on December 12, 2006, 09:11:29 PMWhere does that put me.
I'm blue and now I am yellow. Opps now I am blue again.
As a bi-gender I've have very little saturation.
My wardrobe is but not me.
 :) :)
Jillieann (Yellow)/Jr (Blue)

Aww, you pesky bi-gendered people...you always take a simple little explanation and complicate it up...LOL

So how would we work you into this Gender Spectrum?  The fact that y'all are both male and female, unmixed, would seem not to fit in, and yet, there you are.  And there is no denying you are indeed Androgyne.  

While searching for how to make this work and still keep the analogy simple, I came upon this thought.  Y'all let me know what you think.

Take the spectrum example from above...Male on the blue end, Female on the yellow end.  Picture this spectrum on a long narrow piece of paper.  Now, make the strip of paper into a circle.  You still have Male and Female at the ends of the spectrum, and the green in the middle, but you also have another place...the bridge where the two ends join and co-exist...That's where the bi-gendered folks live.  A truly special place with complete access to Male and Female with no blending.

What do you think?  Does it make sense?  Is it too much of a stretch?  I think I like it...it is simple to explain and not that much of a leap once you get the gender spectrum idea across.  Let me know...it was the best I could do at the spur of the moment, and if it is brilliant, I want to gloat...LOL

.....Laurie

QuoteAww, you pesky bi-gendered people...you always take a simple little explanation and complicate it up...LOL

I'm blushing.

I think thats how I would interpret us, instead of going across the green spectrum, we just kind of are at the junction of the two extremes. Technically our two sides still add up to green, we just haven't added them. They're touching, but not mixed.

**Nods**
Satisfied
M&M

Wow, I like that concept. It makes sense to me, and it looks like it's correct. Nice job!

OMG! Does this explain crossdressers and ->-bleeped-<-s? I've been having a hard time figuring out how some people can know they're male (my apologies to the ladies) but still have these feminine thoughts and feelings, while for some people the seemingly same situation tells them that something else is going on. Are they somehow reaching through this bridge between male and female?

Gloat...Gloat

Destruction of a explanation averted.

QuoteWhat do you think?  Does it make sense?  Is it too much of a stretch?  I think I like it...it is simple to explain and not that much of a leap once you get the gender spectrum idea across.  Let me know...it was the best I could do at the spur of the moment, and if it is brilliant, I want to gloat...LOL

We do some how have some kind of bridge that lets us have complete access to both Male are Female essences/personas/qualities with no blending.
So the ring thing works with for me Laurie.

I've been trying to figure out how to explain it for along time hone.
You really are sharp Laurie.
This explanation should go in the Wiki.
 :) :)
Jillieann

Thanks Jillieann/JR.

I wish I could say I thought long and hard to come up with this, but it just popped into my head...women's intuition????

Your words are kind, but WIKI???  Let's get a few more comments and see if there is anything we need to tweak before we go that far...I know far too little to presume it covers all of us Androgynes.

OK Everybody...let's get this hammered out.

Thanks......Laurie

Very interesting. I feel like I'm green. People's react to me as if I'm yellow and slowly treat me more greenish as they get to know me.

Avocado. Lime. Mint. Then a few days out of every month I get pulled into this crazy yellow tint  and then apologize to my husband for being such a woman. LOL.

Socks are always on the ground around here. Crispy socks, clean socks, new socks still packaged together. Wearing two different socks to work. I have to agree that where socks are located is a strong indicator...of what I'm not sure,  :D.

Chunk

QuoteI combined the idea of the gender spectrum with the idea of a color spectrum and he got it. Hopefully this will help others to explain androgyny and to understand it better.

Casey

Very good Idea. As mentioned before, such spectrum way is a suggested way to help explain things. The color element I think makes the product of the combination different then the two original colors, for intergender , AKA the Greens between the Blue and Pink.

And for bigender:

QuoteTechnically our two sides still add up to green, we just haven't added them. They're touching, but not mixed.
Marq and Mia

QuoteWe do some how have some kind of bridge that lets us have complete access to both Male are Female essences/personas/qualities with no blending.
Jillieann/JR

I like Emerald's current avatar even the yin yang and the spectrum of colors (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php?action=dlattach;attach=1088;type=avatar) where the color theory is mixed in even how it shows in the middle them blurred and mixed like intergender, and on the outside, them separated more defined on the edge of the 2 colors, like bigender.

And fluidity in gender would cause you to change colors occasionally.

Quote'Androgyne Green' existed long before the division into its separate color components of Blue and Yellow.
Emerald

Yes when a fetus is forming, it contains the ability to be both male and female sex,  in which the forces of the Y chromosome dna alters the fetus organs to become male body. Or sometimes it becomes intersexed.

And gender also varies, though I dont know the causes or relationship to biology of the variations, though I have read of many different theories.

Quote from: Casey on December 13, 2006, 09:43:49 AMOMG! Does this explain crossdressers and ->-bleeped-<-s? I've been having a hard time figuring out how some people can know they're male (my apologies to the ladies) but still have these feminine thoughts and feelings, while for some people the seemingly same situation tells them that something else is going on. Are they somehow reaching through this bridge between male and female?

Oddly enough, I'm like the exact opposite.  I know I'm female, but I sometimes have masculine thoughts and feelings (although not that often).  Perhaps that's why I'm lesbian. ::) How interesting.

Melissa

QuoteSo, it sounds like you are saying androgen is it's own gender comprised of aspects from both the male and female genders, but it is not male and it is not female.

That pretty much describes how I feel, not male, not female (although closer to that than male), not exactly a mix of the two, but something else entirely.

zythyra

Jeezes!  I'm have second and thrid thoughts about what i am now......... :eusa_wall:
I share in all of or some of depending on.. the comments posted and feelings.  I do not have a desire as much to surgically alter as much as i have the dead DEAD 100% thinking to have my body be female to match my inside thinking....
I considered for years was i gay... umm maybe, but that was not the issue that is sexuality.. Was i androgynous?  i wasn't sure but not so sure that i believed i was..
Was i gender (i forget the word) but the one issue where its more of a sexual fetish to be the other sex .. no that ended up not being it..
gender dysphoria is what the healthcare (or so called profressionals) professionals called it.
I tend mostly to agree.  But are the guy-thoughts girl-thoughts-back and forth thoughts and thinking, social activities, dirty guy socks and all ......physiological implants that were always there or were they socially grown tendancies as we grew up under the pressures of parenting or society>?
We were not born with the social tendency to belch or linger around in smelly sweat pants (these were leaqrned or observed behaviors)but i was born with the inherent thinking and fuzzy thoughts of knowing my inside was not right with my outside and that outweighed most things as i grew up i learned (all but had to) to be a guy and inside yearned to be a girl and tried to learn that as well.....
Very very digestive stuff here i better get a full stomach going before i say any  more!
sorry but ricki will be signing off shortly to make eggs and french toast and homefries for a late friday evening munch-out!
More tomorrow on this
Ricki

Soo....if one were 'genderblind' by this colour analogy, would it be equivalent to colourblindness? :laugh:

Quote from: bananaslug on December 15, 2006, 11:53:57 PMSoo....if one were 'genderblind' by this colour analogy, would it be equivalent to colourblindness? :laugh:

Aye, would just see black or white, or just shades of grey.

QuoteSoo....if one were 'genderblind' by this colour analogy, would it be equivalent to colourblindness? laugh

Yes, that pretty much describes the society we are living in.
zythyra

Isn't that why there are all the cliches` about things being black and white...
People (society in this case maybe) cannot or does not have the sight or vision to see or accept all the different shades...
ricki

I see a little black and white (blue and pink) at the ends and a whole lot of grey in the middle. If you say you're a woman I probably won't even question it unless you start shooting deer out the window of your monster truck with an AK-47. It takes something similar for me to question that you're a man if you say you are.

So in a real way being genderblind is like being colorblind.

Casey i liked that and i think the world could do with a little more gender-blindness then!
Ricki

I agree with you Ricki. It would be great if gender-blindness was a little more common.

To tell you the truth though, as great as I'm sure it is for people to know that I take them at face value, sometimes it feels like I'm a bit naïve. Kind of like one of those things I'll understand when I get older. But then I wouldn't change it even if I could.

I have always described my life as one in grey.  But I also love the color green. 
I would say green may be the better color though, grey is so drab.  The life in grey is a great analogy, but not really the best describing color. 

Casey you know i think despite my years i am niave to sometimes but i have tried soo hard to note joke or judge people when it comes to all forms of expressions and stuff, i know from myself and others there is always more lurking under the crust (food term had to, soory..)
The softest thing i can say in a group of biggots is whatever to each his own, then i get the stares.. Ugghhhhh
Hugs
'Ricki