Susan's Place Transgender Resources

in as many or as few words as you'd like... this is not me asking you to "explain yourself" or "define yourself" or any of that. i'm just wondering what people think, because i use these words interchangeably to describe myself, whether to other people or in my head:
- multigendered
- genderfluid
- genderqueer
- agender/genderless
- gender nonconforming
- gender->-bleeped-<-
- radical

and other things:
- i want my gender to be what my body does, not what my body appears to be (this is why i am going to be a farmer.)
- gender is frustrating.
- sometimes, i want gender to go away entirely.

there are other things. i will come back and say more. i'm just interested to hear what other folks have to say, because i feel strange when i am asked to "choose one" ... especially when there is so much overlap and other stuff, and it's not entirely mappable or explainable, and it goes so far beyond a spectrum of man -> genderqueer -> trans woman, or female -> genderqueer -> trans man.

?? ?? i feel highly inarticulate.

Swinging at the pinata...
Okay, I don't think I'm male... but I am becoming more convinced I'm not female either...but rather that I feel both.
Maybe 40% male and 60% female? but since I've been busy being female for 37 years, I'm having a party with the male-ish aspects ATM.
I was a very in-your-face dyke in the 90's when that was the radical thing to do...except I figured out I still am attracted to men...But yet presented very butchly.

I...am not currently socially in a position where it would be without major consequence to say "I am third gender, neither man nor woman."   But if/when I see myself in a permissive employment and social situation.... >:-). I'm inclined to rattle cages.  I think people ought to have a right to not have to cut off parts of their true selves to fit in the little pink or blue boxes, one per customer, thank you.

(I've never been a big respecter of social norms for which I cannot see a necessity.  Crossing at crosswalks=good.  Gendered bathrooms=bad.  Using trashcans=good, skirts for women only=bad. )

Female, no more no less....

(With a few gene physical anomalies to overcome)

Defo with an unconventional start out to life....

Hey, check this out: http://www.kreativekorp.com/miscpages/gender/gender.pl (http://www.kreativekorp.com/miscpages/gender/gender.pl).  It's got a huge list of terms, many of which I've never seen elsewhere, that you can choose from, as many as you want of course.

My favorite terms to apply to myself are: FT?, gender atypical, gender confused, gender nonconformist, gender transcender, gender variant, genderqueer, opt-out, queer, transmasculine, ungendered, and of course, gender obliterator.  I feel like there's nothing female about me besides my body, but I don't think I'm terribly male either.  I don't know if I even can understand how other people experience binary gender in the first place.

I use the words "transgender," "bigender," and the definition of transgender in order to explain to people who I am.

"female" on a form, or to anyone I don't want to explain anything to.  I've gotten over the issues I had as a kid with people mistaking me for a guy, so if they do, I won't correct them, though.

"trigender" here, since sometimes I *do* actually feel a bit more female than neither, though if it's skirts and dresses time, I've never gotten over that feeling like crossdressing.  I guess it takes more than my mostly androgyne-male brain has got to get past that hump, even when surrounded by other people similarly dressed up.  (maybe I'd feel less weird if there were sometimes other guys in dresses wherever I happened to have to wear them, too?)

"transgender" in addition, as the body I was born with and gender I was assigned on my birth certificate do not match the body I want and what's in my head, even if I'm mostly somewhere around the blue line on the male side of the hockey rink of gender and not way back at the goal like most guys with solid male gender identities, even if they do skate around the rest of the ice on occasion.

I've given this a little thought and I think I'm at risk of sounding clever here. But my gender defines me.

I really hate these labels. Labels are a means of dismissing people. Summing them up so that any further interest in unnecessary.

People are so much more than a single aspect.

I'd say I have a fairly good idea of what my gender is and where it sits on the scale. From all my time thinking about it and viewing others I feel I've come to an understanding of myself in regards to gender! Of course I wish it was a few more notches towards the right... but I need to be honest with myself and others.
I've heard some people say that gender is fixed and I would really like to believe that and sometimes I do.. but maybe it can move ever so slowly with the right kind of influences? I don't know enough about it to say. I know I can change my gender roles etc but my identity? I do plan on trying to push it to the right more with time. Like right now I dislike a lot of things that are considered to be exclusively female but I am open to the idea of one day changing that once I feel more comfortable in my softer skin. The thought of looking awkward is just not appealing at all to me :P
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimgur.com%2FjNMVL.png&hash=bee85046ecb6e9eec10b8f0d71efa136445045cd)

   Lately, I just don't. If I think about it just sort of, I feel like I'm going to be wrong. If I think about it a lot, it tends to get a bit confusing. So lately, I don't. I just am and I'm happier about myself. It seems easier to just be. I know without having to define it because I don't need to explain myself to anyone, except maybe my therapist. I see anyone who isn't androgyne as being clueless and it makes me laugh to myself. I know that's just a little mean, but it's not anywhere as mean as they could be to me. So screw'em!
   But I wish there was an easy way to explain it all here for all of you. But I can't, and I am sorry for that. There are the frustrations in some posts that make me feel pretty sad. For you and for me because it hits home.
   Neither gender or both. Or both of those or neither of those. It's easier to think about the beginning and the end of existence. Or the universe. So lately, I just don't.

I don't really "fit" anywhere. Androgyne is a decent descriptor, I guess, but there are layers to how my identity works. As far as gender roles and presenting to the world go, it's fairly fluid. Sometimes I feel entirely agendered, other times I'll take on a masculine or feminine attitude. But my body dysphoria is less fluid. I'm very concrete on what my body is supposed to look like and what's out of place.

So, like ativan I don't. Not trying to define it is just so much more comfortable. I can exist without having to struggle for the right words or feel like I'm being pigeon holed. I just am.

Quote from: Ilan Reshon on September 21, 2010, 11:02:09 PM
Hey, check this out: http://www.kreativekorp.com/miscpages/gender/gender.pl (http://www.kreativekorp.com/miscpages/gender/gender.pl).  It's got a huge list of terms, many of which I've never seen elsewhere, that you can choose from, as many as you want of course.

this is cool. i'd seen it before, actually, and i'm glad you pointed me back in its direction, because i think i am in the space now (where i wasn't before) to actually go through and decide what applies to me, not necessarily all the time, but sometimes.

Quote from: ativan on September 23, 2010, 10:21:31 PM
   Lately, I just don't.

Quote from: Lepidoptera on September 23, 2010, 10:35:40 PM
I can exist without having to struggle for the right words or feel like I'm being pigeon holed. I just am.

entirely legitimate. thanks for bringing that up-- both of you. i feel that way a lot of the time, and when i don't feel that way, i sometimes forget how frustrating it is - and how much sometimes i would prefer not to think about it. (hence the word "frustrating" i guess.)

I get a different answer when I try to be logical than I do when I just try to listen to my soul. I have six decades of acting male so it seems automatic, but also like a set of clothes I put on that do not fit. I look in the mirror and see a male, but I do not see me. Which to my logical mind makes no sense.

So, for now I call myself genderqueer or androgynous; I have male and female aspects. My self-definition.

My head says male.

But I feel female.

It would be easier to feel like my body, but I do not. I feel so overwhelmed. and scared.

Head says: "male"

Heart says: "woman"

Head says: "compromise - androgynous"

Heart says: " woman"

Head says: "I am so lost/->-bleeped-<-ed/messed up"

Heart says: "woman"

I do not think I can be just anything I imagine or choose to be. I do not feel like I can define myself so much as discover the self that has been buried and denied for so long.

Kendall

I'm a genderqueer trans man.  I'm way more comfortable and happy living as a man than I was as a girl, but I still don't identify as 100% male.  I'll always be a little in between or outside.

I don't, and I can't.  All the terms overlap and/or don't quite apply.

The drunker/more honest I get the more I realize that I'm just me.  I honestly think that there are a lot more people like us than unlike.

Quote from: LilDoberman on September 27, 2010, 01:57:10 PM
I don't, and I can't.  All the terms overlap and/or don't quite apply.

The drunker/more honest I get the more I realize that I'm just me.  I honestly think that there are a lot more people like us than unlike.

it's hard for me to say that i think there are "more people like us than unlike" even though i really like the sentiment - i don't really know or understand anyone's experience but my own, unless i am with someone who uses the same words for their experience, whose experience resonates. i don't know what "people like us" because even as a gendernonconforming trans person i know i am not the same as other gendernonconforming trans people. does that make sense? so even though i really like what you're saying, i don't agree for myself. does that make sense too?

Yes, makes sense exactly.  What I was thinking was simply that we 'assume' that everyone who acts/appears to be completely male/female actually is and I really don't think that's true.  I personally believe in the whole gender spectrum thing and that when people are truly open about it, there aren't as many piling up agains the end poles as it seems.
So yes, I know and agree that I am not the same as most other nonconforming people out there, but I think there are a TON of us.

I also *know* that I need another cup of coffee before writing anything that important.  You deserve a cookie if you can decifer it :)

the "gender as a spectrum" thing makes me think in a lot of directions too, actually. i can see how my starting this thread could be potentially a problem for some people, because it asks people to assign a name to their identity. for me, it's helpful to have words, even if none of them feel right 100% of the time. gender-as-spectrum doesn't entirely work for me. god, it's TOTALLY problematic that i started this thread.

...i'm glad i realized that.

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.charlieglickman.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2010%2F09%2FThinking-of-Gender.jpg&hash=5ef45169c46a6c0b9d4bb0f3d6561de785cfd77f)

Think of a sphere. Now place all the gender labels, descriptions, etc. all over the surface as individual points. Now imagine someone trying to locate themselves on that surface.
I think that most people would just keep looking to find out where they are. That's reasonable I suppose. And things will change as they progress through life. Reasonable.

Now think about the inside, the inner volume, of the same sphere. That's Androgyne. None of us are the same as the other, but we are in that same inner volume. Apart from the rest. We to, will change as time goes on, but we will remain in that volume, looking at all the descriptions that everyone else uses to describe themselves, and become more content in knowing where we are and where we will be.

Just my take on it. Maybe why I don't try to describe my gender, lately. It is what it is.

the center point? or the whole volume? there are a lot of people who bounce around the middle, walk around the inner area of the surface, bisect it, do other things, or litter the sky outside of it like bizarre constellations. androgyne means a lot of things, but there are a lot of things that people do, and then they overlap. i like your sphere. i want it to expand.

I don't see what is so complicated about it... in my understanding it is fixed and there is a line that moves from one binary to another and we all (not one excluded) fall somewhere on that line. If you don't know where you are on that line then perhaps one should do everything within their power to maybe figure it out? I consider it a good thing to know.. of course if you don't want to know and feel that knowing wouldn't enrich your life then....

Quote from: Tree on September 29, 2010, 10:20:55 PM
the center point? or the whole volume? there are a lot of people who bounce around the middle, walk around the inner area of the surface, bisect it, do other things, or litter the sky outside of it like bizarre constellations. androgyne means a lot of things, but there are a lot of things that people do, and then they overlap. i like your sphere. i want it to expand.

The whole volume. I suppose one of the points I was making is that there is a difference between Androgyne and the rest of the world. Their labels and descriptions just never seem to fit, no matter how you combine, slice and dice, or try to redefine. Not that I have anything better. We see the surface from a different direction. Our focus is different.

Hey Muffin! :) Strictly speaking of gender only, I'm about on the meter (I like that) where you are. Most of the time. So yah, from that standpoint, you're completely right. It's the trying to explain it to others, and even myself, that all the labels and descriptions start to mess that all up. I find several points along the line that suit me for different reasons. Averaging them out doesn't feel right. Making it a range instead of a point doesn't feel right. Which all led to the sphere thing that doesn't solve anything, it's only a point of view. Which all goes back to my statement of I don't try to describe myself, lately. I hope it hasn't frustrated my therapist... :laugh:

I am not a fan of labelling but if someone came up to me in the street and asked me what gender I was and I only had two options to choose from (M or F), I'd pick the F one but I would do it with some hesitation. Not because I feel male, or partly male or anything like that but because I wouldn't like the fact that I choose female to lead to me being constrained or boxed in. Afterall, I don't want to go to all the trouble to change my sex and gener role only to jump from one box to the other. When I do make the brave step to publically change my gender presentation I want to feel I've earned to right to portray myself in any way I want.

I sorta like the idea of being butchy sometimes, not hardcore leather butchy, but I don't consider myself a girly girl either. I love dresses and the thought of getting all dressed up and pretty is exciting but for the most of the time I'd like to be comfortable in jeans and a hoody. I kinda like the idea of myself being a guyish girl, the kind you have to gently force into getting all dolled up. Sadly though by the time I do get to transition, that might no longer be an option. We'll see....

I find the being scared of labels when it comes to gender to be strange.... it's like anything else that is fixed. What colour is your skin? oh it's ...well...I don't like to label myself......dude it's white! why be so finicky about it??
There are plenty of people out there who's gender doesn't sit around the far ends, closer to the middle and they don't feel weird about it so why should anyone else? I don't get it.
How tall are you? oh......I don't like to label myself......*measures you* you're 5'7" 0_0 ...oh...but yeah do we really need to label my height? *rolls eyes*.

I'm not afraid of labels I am just not a fan of them. I don't agree that gender can be labelled in the same way as skin colour or nationality or religion. I have no problem labelling myself an Irish athetist vegan but when it comes to my gender I find that the labels we currently have are not sufficient enough. That being said I have no fear of them and I am perfectly happy to call myself a woman.

I'll take a stab at this.

  Generally speaking, I am a genetic male who's label of late is identifying as bi gender/androgyne who is asexual.  That is today. If David was dominant right now I'm  sure he would disagree with bombi.

White 5'9" Androgyne.

Well, not actually white, although I appear to be. I'm actually bi-racial.
Well, I'm really 5'9 1/2", but usually I'm listed as 5' 10", (people usually round up).
Well, I'm Androgyne, which covers a lot of different descriptions and labels, which someone has asked me 'which of those labels and descriptions fit you?'. Then the fact that I am getting shorter from aging, I would prefer to be listed as 5'9" as it will be closer to the truth, till I'm 5'8 1/2" lol.  When I tell people about my heredity, it brings up speculation and I've been asked how can I justify calling myself white when I'm not. 'It's convenient, and easier most of the time'.

The more comfortable I get about who I am, the more correct the descriptions and labels I use, seem to be correct. For a lot of people, especially those who have just arrived at the conclusion that they fall somewhere in the descriptions and labels, it is or it's going to be a journey to get to where they know who they are. To always have the labels and such over the horizen is one thing, to be able to see them all is another.
It seems so easy now, but it was oh so hard when it all started, from the beginning.
The shortest distance between is a straight line, but then you just might miss something along the way. You might end up always wondering, which is just going to eat away at you're conclusions of who you are. Those of you who are just now looking at who you are, it's a journey through the description/label pile, for those who are nearing the end of that phase, it is pretty much a straight line that you're on. It's then just a matter of refining what you know and feel. And the adjustments you make as you move through life will be smaller. How do I describe myself, my gender? Lately I don't. It is what it is.
That's not to say it will remain the same, always. It'll change, no doubt. But I have a lot more experience now, I pretty much know I'll be able to accept the changes I'll make, because Ive looked at and tried on a lot of descriptions and labels to find the ones that fit.

My gender is: woman

My sex is (unfortunately): male
Sex being a physiological condition with a biological definition.

:)

Quote from: Muffin on September 30, 2010, 09:41:05 PM
I find the being scared of labels when it comes to gender to be strange.... it's like anything else that is fixed. What colour is your skin? oh it's ...well...I don't like to label myself......dude it's white! why be so finicky about it??
There are plenty of people out there who's gender doesn't sit around the far ends, closer to the middle and they don't feel weird about it so why should anyone else? I don't get it.
How tall are you? oh......I don't like to label myself......*measures you* you're 5'7" 0_0 ...oh...but yeah do we really need to label my height? *rolls eyes*.

okay, the issue i find with this is that the "spectrum" model doesn't work for a lot of people. my friend wrote it really well:

QuoteI take issue with the idea that gender is a spectrum (and this is also why I've had a hard time calling myself genderqueer). When you say gender is a spectrum, the usual implication is that you have masculinity on one side, femininity on the other, and everything else in between. This is still an incredibly binary interpretation of gender - because all the middle can be is a combination of masculinity and femininity, or differing degrees of one or the other. Even the symbol used to represent the idea that gender is a spectrum insinuates that - you have symbols for male, female, and both-male-and-female. So while "gender is a spectrum" is way more progressive than "your options are boy and girl and that's it", it's not enough. It doesn't give any options for not male and not female.

[...]

What this [...] doesn't get at, I think, is the idea that gender is a social construct, and that's it. It's not an intrinsic property. It doesn't exist on its own. Gender is like fairies - it only exists if you believe in it and go along with the clapping. You can't stop being assigned a gender, and you can't escape the system because it's everywhere, but I think this graphic perpetuates this idea that gender is this sort of tangible thing that everyone has.

That doesn't mean that people don't identify strongly with genders, or that people should stop identifying the way that they identify. It's really important to me that I'm not put into boxes I don't want to be in, and if for now we're stuck with a system where people have to pick boxes, I sure as hell want people to be able to pick the ones they're in. But in order to get past that stage of boxes, we need to recognize that they're only there because we keep building them. And that's my problem with this graphic: it says "there are more boxes than you think, and some people like to decorate theirs with glitter and stickers!" instead of "let's get out of the boxes!"

^^your friend doesn't understand the difference between gender and gender identity? That is how it reads to me.

But what if I like my box? I get that you don't want to be in a box - but I don't understand the step where you go from "I don't want a box" to "let's get rid of all the boxes." Just because you don't like boxes doesn't mean you should get to take my box away.

what's the difference between gender & gender identity? my understanding is that gender is a framework invented by a collective society and that we identify within that given framework whether actively or not. i don't think my friend is trying to say "nobody is allowed to be in boxes anymore!" i think it's more of a "i don't want to be in a box, but i am placed in one because of how people read me. i take issue with that." it may not have been phrased in that way, but i've spent a lot of time conversing with this friend over all of this, and so it goes. please point out if i'm wrong or offensive? i want you to keep your box if you're comfortable with it. i want people to be happy where they are at.

Indescribable but not nondescript?  ;)
I've just given up with the labels. It's nice to know there are people who share my feelings about gender, but I don't need a category really, I just needed to know that other possibilities existed. I am myself, and what best describes me shifts from moment to moment, so I just am.
That doesn't mean to say I don't get irritated with people who say things like "but you're a girl" and "Move it, woman!" I even still get a part of me surprised when people call me 'she', I'm like "oh yeah...".
Tiredness is getting the better of my sentence structure and general clarity, as usual.
With regards to how society views gender, I think that our perception of it can only broaden with time. I mean, already people are a lot more comfortable combining male and female clothing to get the look they want, maybe in the future that will move out into physical characteristics and even to greater understanding and acceptance of those who consider themselves 'other' (as in, something not even related to male and female). I am optimistic about the future. Our understanding and tolerance can only improve now.
The ways to visualise it seem to me a bit like trying to find an analogy for concepts in quantum physics (especially with the web thing); that is to say, only people who know stuff about quantum physics/gender already could even come close to understanding it, and although it may be true, it is still somewhat beyond our limited comprehension at this time.
So yeah. Onwards, to the future! And even more complicated visual representations! Huzzah!  ;D

Quote from: Tree on October 03, 2010, 04:14:00 PM
please point out if i'm wrong or offensive? i want you to keep your box if you're comfortable with it. i want people to be happy where they are at.

You're doing just fine. This is always a good topic for discussion.
Finding where you're at makes for being happy as long as you can accept it for yourself.
I doubt if anyone here is the same as anyone else, so point of view is always interesting.
Accepting that is gonna help make the good people here happy.

@fenrir: you're right! i worry about these things not being accessible enough for people--especially people who matter--and sometimes i forget that. but that just means that we need to keep on talking about it.

@ativan: thanks for the encouragement. you're totally on it - nobody sees these things the same way because we all have our individual experiences, and that's important. that's the beauty of where we all come from.

I am a woman with certain birth anomalies.  What those are is noneya.  None ya business.

Quote from: Janet Lynn on October 04, 2010, 12:23:05 AM
I am a woman with certain birth anomalies.  What those are is noneya.  None ya business.

wow, this is awesome!

I thought I had already answered this but I couldn't find it so
I'm an intergendered androgyne which falls under the genderqueer umbrella which falls under the transgender umbrella

I'm about 60% girl, 40% boy. My feminine ideals tend to overlap my masculine ideals,
which make my gender identity a huge, discombobulated mess.

Sometimes I'm a girl, sometimes I'm a boy.
Sometimes I'm both, and other times neither.

It's confusing, but I'm learning to live with it.

@ Kyril-
People who are happy with any box should certainly be able to choose a box and stay in it...but you shouldn't be forced to jam yourself in any particular box (the wrong one, based on birth sex, not actual gender) or, in my case, cut bits off to fit in one gender box (because parts of you belong in both boxes).

And I'd like to duct-tape the pink box and the blue box of gender together at right angles... :laugh:   

It's not so much that I want the boxes tossed out, I just want me, and other people like myself, to not face societal awfulness if they don't fit in those boxes.   Which is hard without making the boxes a lot less important.   Actually, it's just not going to be easy at all, is it?

Quote from: rite_of_inversion on October 08, 2010, 05:46:34 PM
@ Kyril-
People who are happy with any box should certainly be able to choose a box and stay in it...but you shouldn't be forced to jam yourself in any particular box (the wrong one, based on birth sex, not actual gender) or, in my case, cut bits off to fit in one gender box (because parts of you belong in both boxes).

And I'd like to duct-tape the pink box and the blue box of gender together at right angles... :laugh:   

It's not so much that I want the boxes tossed out, I just want me, and other people like myself, to not face societal awfulness if they don't fit in those boxes.   Which is hard without making the boxes a lot less important.   Actually, it's just not going to be easy at all, is it?

i love this, and i love exploding boxes.

I feel 90% male. But reality screws me up sometimes.

Argh, the frustration of "Identification" and it's necessity. Genetically, I'm going to be stuck with a Y chromosome until I die. Mentally/Personally, I am not of the binary sexes. In formal scenarios or to keep things simple, I identify as male. I don't expect others to comprehend a "nongendered" person, so I don't put that tax on their brains.

To friends though, I identify as an "Aidan" jokingly. I openly identify as androgynous though to them.

Of course this means some people will be a little freaked out...some will hate me too. Living in a decent area and having a good circle of friends is the best solution to that.

First off, I really like this thread, especially the gender form link.  Everyone bake yourself a cookie, then eat said cookie with vigor and satisfaction, which will be in some abstract and nebulous sense from me.

I'm inclined to agree in part with all the main viewpoints presented so far - I'm in the wrong box, I am making my own box, boxes shouldn't exist, and who cares.  In case anyone is actually interested I'm going to try to address all of those in addition to all of the words I use to describe myself.  To be honest, this post is mostly an excuse to write it all down for the times when I feel lost and confused about the whole thing.

~ female-assigned at birth

I'll start from the beginning I guess; when I was born someone visually inspected my genitalia and attempted to define me as female for the rest of my life.  I don't like it, but it has contributed something to my identity for better or for worse.

~ Ft?, not female

I've never felt like a girl, even when I didn't understand gender at all.  I don't understand girls, I don't feel comfortable in a group of girls, and I can't relate to girls the way they relate to each other and try to relate to me.  And I don't want to be able to do those things, in fact, sometimes I am afraid that I am or will become a woman.  

~ FtM, sexually male, penis-envier?

As far as sex is concerned, I'd be better off with the standard male genitals.  Basically, I feel like a penis would really belong on my body.  I don't want to get graphic but I fantasize about it a lot, I would like to use it in sexual acts, and I try to simulate it with toys/imagination.

~ boy, kid, little brother

I am a small person and I tend to act immature or childish, so I'm often known as a kid.  I like it very much, I think it makes life so colorful and exciting; I hope I am young at heart until the day I die.  I particularly identify with the word "boy," and I've been told I act like a young boy.  Sometimes I've been read as my boyfriend's little brother.  

~ loli, little girl

Confusingly enough, I also see myself as a little girl in some senses, mostly the cute aesthetic and as a sexual role.  I love to dress as an adorable girl with cute clothing and hair bows, and I tend to wear girl's accessories.  I don't want to behave like a girl, play with a young girl's toys, or interact with other young girls, but I feel like it's an aspect of my identity.  It doesn't feel repulsive to me as long as I am prepubescent.  

~ neutrois, androgynous

Physically, I don't want to have a gender.  My body shouldn't have male or female markers of any sort*: no gonads, no reproductive organs, no breasts, no curves, no prominent muscles, no facial or body hair, etc.  None of those things belong on my body, and I'm desperate to get rid of the ones I have.

~ bishi, prettyboy, femboy

Although I like calling myself a boy I do not want to be a man or look like one.  I want to stay small and cute in appearance and behavior; I would absolutely love being a skinny boy with long hair, the kind who is easily mistaken for a girl at a glance.  I relate very strongly to the Japanese term bishounen (beautiful boy) and find the western concept of masculinity pretty much a joke.

~ gender bender, gender outlaw, gender punk, gender pirate, etc.

My personal philosophy about gender expression is that it should always be freeing and never restricting.  I'll be disappointed if I fit into a gender stereotype, because I don't want to be normal.  I want to turn heads, drop jaws, blow minds, and generally knock down all the limits that come from our overly simplistic view of gender.  And look awesome while doing it.


Now that I've written down all these labels I feel much freer and less restricted by them.  Woo irony.

wow, shiinee, very thorough and very interesting--especially the overlap and points of contention in the series of labels. words words words! thanks for sharing so much.

I basically just said, "to hell with gender" and decided not to worry about it.  I have a female body that I don't hate.  I like dudes.  As long as I'm true to myself, it'll work out.  I just don't worry about it anymore.

@shiinee

This.  Pretty much this.  You said it better than I ever could.

there are many ways of looking at gender for me the one dimentional line between male & female doesn't fit my experience because it assumes that the more male you are the less female you are there have been times when I felt very strongly both Male and Female at the same time.
my maleness is normally 40-60% and my Fem side between 60 - 80% but there have been times where I have emotionally had both 95+.
here is an example of what caused me to feel stongly both in a very hard way I also have examples where the 2 parts have worked well together
I had been working hard toward a performance when with 3 weeks to go till opening night I was told without warning that I wasn't good enough, I was painful to watch and that a replacement had been found.
my Male emotions wanted to kill the director,
my female side couldn't stop crying
I wouldn't want to hurt anyone so I was venting by bashing up my pillow that became sopping wet with the tears my teddy bear was also effected at that time bashed hugged and used as a tissue and flew all within a few seconds.

during an event I'm just me and I feel how I feel it is only looking back that I see how stereotypicaly Male and female traits work at the same time during some experiences and there are other people here and other places online who feel about 0% for both male and female.

im a lesbian girl that trap in man body

at day, i be a man. just a normal man who play football

but when night i be a girl. hahahaha....

I think you get into all kinds of trouble if you don't think of gender as a spectrum. but, what kind of spectrum is it? maybe it's more accurate to think of gender as a circle than a line. very masculine and very feminine traits would start to look similar that way.

Quote from: Almond on October 31, 2010, 12:56:15 PM
I think you get into all kinds of trouble if you don't think of gender as a spectrum. but, what kind of spectrum is it? maybe it's more accurate to think of gender as a circle than a line. very masculine and very feminine traits would start to look similar that way.

maybe a color wheel, or a bubble?

Quote from: Almond on October 31, 2010, 12:56:15 PM
I think you get into all kinds of trouble if you don't think of gender as a spectrum. but, what kind of spectrum is it? maybe it's more accurate to think of gender as a circle than a line. very masculine and very feminine traits would start to look similar that way.

It's probably best as a line spectrum. There is:

Very Masculine - Masculine - Androgynous - Feminine - Very Feminine

Of course, that's a very basic way of looking at it. Many claim to be Feminine and retain some manly traits and vice versa, that would put them near Feminine but still between F and A.

Though classification is not needed and honestly isn't very constructive, society will label you so you should be prepared to influence them to make a label that you'll be happy with.

Quote from: Tree on November 03, 2010, 02:37:40 PM
maybe a color wheel, or a bubble?

You're more on track with a bubble.

I'm still discovering myself, but I basically feel neither masculine or feminine at any time, I do tend to act more like a guy but that's just personility I think. So idk maybe I don't have a gender.

I guess if I had to lean one way or the other, I'd lean a bit toward male. I do like my penis. But then, I get EXTREMELY giddy whenever someone thinks I'm a girl. :p

I guess if I HAD to choose some kind of loose term, I'd be a girly-boy. Or something. I don't know. XD

When feeling label-ish, these days I lean heavily on "gender nonconforming" and "genderqueer". I consider m2f and gender->-bleeped-<- to refer to activities I carry out more than identifiers, although I situationally use either as a noun or adjective.

When tempted to be more specific, I tend to think of how much of a hole I'm already in and just put the shovel down.

I don't really feel like any gender...I love being able to feel like a boy, and to mostly/feel like a girl...I also like being a boy because, in addition to being closer to being myself, I also feel empowered.

I like women, and I like men. I also like other androgynies because I see them as beautiful in an almost enlightened way. I see androgyny as rising above the crude and simple notion of gender our society has.
In addition, I would also like to have relationships with other girls (my age, don't worry). I don't know if this is an experimental phase or something that will be with me for the rest of my life.
(Yes, I just identified as female there. Calm down son.)

I plan to post pictures soon, but my eyes will probably be covered. And it won't be my real hair.

I actually wish I could cut my hair, slightly long but still boyish, without looking like a butch lesbian. I wish I was brave enough to allow myself to get mistaken for either gender. I like to think that, as of now, I could pass for either male or female.
I'd also want to dye it blond, like dark yellowish brown, and natural looking. I have no idea why, that just makes sense to me.

As a male, I prefer to be casually dressed, usually slightly goth, and as a female, well, you can certainly tell I am female. Although I tend to dress simply (not tastelessly or sluttily) it is still very apparent.

EDIT: Also, I hate how everyone is trying to give the "gender spectrum" a kind of image. I think that, just by being here, all of us are proving any kind of gender spectrum to be completely pointless.

Also, thanks, Samantha! :] And nice to meet everyone.

Hello, ThenWeWereflying. Welcome to Susan's! ^.^

I suppose I can chime in on this. I want so badly to say, "I am a gender noncomformist", but really it doesn't fit how I feel. I feel like I conform to the societies idea of being a girl. It sort of makes me feel like I am closed minded, but I can't help how I feel.

Quote from: ativan on September 23, 2010, 10:21:31 PM
   Lately, I just don't. If I think about it just sort of, I feel like I'm going to be wrong. If I think about it a lot, it tends to get a bit confusing. So lately, I don't. I just am and I'm happier about myself. It seems easier to just be. I know without having to define it because I don't need to explain myself to anyone, except maybe my therapist............................   But I wish there was an easy way to explain it all here for all of you. But I can't, and I am sorry for that. There are the frustrations in some posts that make me feel pretty sad. For you and for me because it hits home.
.........................Neither gender or both. Or both of those or neither of those.

*quoted for Truth* then runs away doing the happy faerie toe dance*

Quote from: Jaimey on October 17, 2010, 12:59:25 PM
I basically just said, "to hell with gender" and decided not to worry about it.  I have a female body that I don't hate.  I like dudes.  As long as I'm true to myself, it'll work out.  I just don't worry about it anymore.

Aye, change a few details, but the gist is there.

Quote from: Pica Pica on November 13, 2010, 04:15:22 PM
Aye, change a few details, but the gist is there.

It's quite freeing! 

I don't think I ever got on the gender bus, so I feel a bit lost when navigating label land. Sometimes more than one seems like it could work, and each has a nuance.   I still feel alienated by the gender binary, and have always gravitated to androgyny and neutrality.  From an early age I knew my identity was neither a boy or a girl, feeling distant from either polarization.  Acting like either feels like drag to me, and artificially contrived.  A synthesis or nondivision was much more comfortable and natural in my case.  Thus, androgyne, non-binary, agender, and genderqueer could all work as labels for my situation.  Over time, thinking too critically about all possible identities that could apply to my life became a convoluted circuitous mindgame, one that often generated more worry than good; and like some others here, I eventually said "screw gender" and went on my way just being me.

hmmmm i think my name says it all.. definately not male and not female (post op mtf)  but more aligned with non op FTM

i AM GLAD BEING SEEN AS A FTM VERSES A MALE TO FEMALE

More often than not I refer to myself as "androgyn". Depending on who I'm talking to I might simplify and say "transgendered"....I LIKE "third gender" quite a bit...and FtA says pretty much everything...I feel like it signified actively DOING something...which I am. I'm taking T. So..yea. That works.

Really, I quite often get dysphoria because society has such strict limitations on gender. While I live in a liberal enough are that I'll still be "allowed" to do certain things doesn't make me feel any less alienated because they are "strange".

I don't really identify as male or female. I see myself as a youth, if anything, although that has more masculine connotations, which isn't what I'm trying to express by using that. Child? I could say that, as children has often been historically viewed as genderless in a sense. (I.E. up until Victorian times boys would be clothed in dresses until they were at least six) but that's obviously changed recently.

I'm still trying to figure this out.  I don't think that I'm completely FTM, so I'm leaning towards androgynous at the moment.  I'm definitely more masculine in the way that I act, think, etc, though and have realized how much better a binder and packer make me feel.  .....Then I go and belly dance.  So yeah, somewhere in the middleish.

I'm a girl with a DISGUSTING vagina at the moment LOL

It's really funny, I discovered the trans world only recently. Before then, I thought about gender A LOT, and came to the conclusion that it's just a social construct. Despite that, I decided the best way to describe myself is gender neutral. I still sort of feel that way.

I absolutly thought that gender was a societal construct until I started T. The vast change in even the little things tells me that we are NOT the same. There are things (of course) that are just human....but there are many many things that are male or female. Hormones are powerful!!!

Quote from: M2MtF2FtM on November 14, 2010, 05:33:12 PM
hmmmm i think my name says it all.. definately not male and not female (post op mtf)  but more aligned with non op FTM

i AM GLAD BEING SEEN AS A FTM VERSES A MALE TO FEMALE

Wait, wait, wait. You're a post-op MtF, but a non-op FtM? That's quite interesting.

Quote from: Devyn on November 24, 2010, 07:00:44 PM
Wait, wait, wait. You're a post-op MtF, but a non-op FtM? That's quite interesting.

yes kinda ironic huh  I basically love being able to let my mind control my body sexually not the other way around as before i transitioned. That is opposite of what most non trans people think about us too. I did have all my facial hair removed so i can't grow a beard and so most people see me as a FTM (or know me legally as a Female) and i get lots of positive support verses when i was living the other direction. Then i was being harrassed by prejudice people if they found out or getting unwanted attention from men who did or didn't know. So yes to me life is half how i feel about my own sexuality and half how others perceive me that has me living as a non op FTM. Now i can be my best and experience the best from others. Life is about living in the world and we do have to deal with other people so might as well get that which you want not that which you don't want. I have seen many people limit themselves to a certain geographical location to exist with some semblence of peace. I have found there isn't any place i can live now and feel uncomfortable. No longer do i need be on one side sticking up for myself against others who may be against me. That was wasting too much energy and not allowing myself the freedom to just live and move on as most people do. I tried the activist route and found i was living in a constant fight with someone or the other. Life is too short to spend it with people who's ideologies may or may not agree with me. Mostly all people want to just fit in and move on with life. Being an activist can be a lonely way of life limiting oneself to a attitude of having people against you for the sake of an attitude of forcing ones beliefs on others when in reality we can never get them to change.

There is a song:

I went to a garden party to reminisce with my old friends
A chance to share old memories and play our songs again
When I got to the garden party, they all knew my name
No one recognized me, I didn't look the same

CHORUS
But it's all right now, I learned my lesson well.
You see, ya can't please everyone, so ya got to please yourself

People came from miles around, everyone was there
Yoko brought her walrus, there was magic in the air
'n' over in the corner, much to my surprise
Mr. Hughes hid in Dylan's shoes wearing his disguise

CHORUS

lott-in-dah-dah-dah, lot-in-dah-dah-dah

Played them all the old songs, thought that's why they came
No one heard the music, we didn't look the same
I said hello to "Mary Lou", she belongs to me
When I sang a song about a honky-tonk, it was time to leave

CHORUS

lot-dah-dah-dah (lot-dah-dah-dah)
lot-in-dah-dah-dah

Someone opened up a closet door and out stepped Johnny B. Goode
Playing guitar like a-ringin' a bell and lookin' like he should
If you gotta play at garden parties, I wish you a lotta luck
But if memories were all I sang, I rather drive a truck

CHORUS

lot-dah-dah-dah (lot-dah-dah-dah)
lot-in-dah-dah-dah

'n' it's all right now, learned my lesson well
You see, ya can't please everyone, so you got to please yourself

FtWTF

WTFtA

M2WtF / M2GQ / M2IS
I recently came out  to a doctor (who has nothing to do with gender) explaining that
there are males, females and other (I think I used the term genderqueer)
and also said that some people are Cis (comfortable in skin)
some people see themselves as the opposite gender to their biology
and then there are the others. and that I'm other for both categories. she asked about my sexuality
and I said of the 5 genders I've met I've felt an attraction to all except  except cis males

also I'm more both then neither,
more neither then female,
more female then male.
and I am a person first gender is only one part of who I am - a big part but only one part

M2F2?

I am gender.  :icon_evil_laugh:

Quote from: Jaimey on December 02, 2010, 04:03:32 PM
I am gender.  :icon_evil_laugh:

I am the gender :icon_evil_laugh:

I've been away from this forum for a couple of years, because it was becoming an obsession, while at the same time daily life was demanding my attention. Then a couple of weeks ago, the rabbi at my synagogue led a service and discussion supportive of transgendered people. She passed out a sheet of definitions that included genderqueer, but not androgyne. I wanted to question that but didn't feel it would contribute to more open and empathetic treatment of mtf/ftms. I spoke toward that, but said nothing about androgynes or about me. Still, that was enough to drive me back to this forum.

I feel a lot like Dostoyevsky's Man from the Underground, who frequently writes paragraphs like: "It would even be better if I myself believed at least something of all the things I've just written. I swear to you, gentlemen, that I don't believe a word, not one little word, of all the things I've just scribbled! That is, I do believe it, perhaps, but at the same time, who knows why, I feel and suspect that I'm lying like a shoemaker." It takes me forever to write entries like this, because I keep arguing with myself about what I feel, what's true, what's real, and what's important.

I present as a male. Yes, I wear size 18 tops, but they are not overtly femme. I have a pony tail, as long as it will grow--and a full beard. I wear pink and lavender shirts, with a couple of buttons open to display on a delicate silver chain a small silver circle with the Hebrew inscription that means--I am my beloved's and my beloved is mine. My wife bought it for me in Israel in lieu of a wedding ring. I have never tried to pass as a female, not one hour, not even on Halloween (among my least favorite holidays).

I check M on a myriad of forms. I discuss my gender with none but my wife, who is also my best friend; I confront no one; I argue with no one. Still, my wife has one friend who has asked her not to bring me to the house, because I don't mix well with her husband and his guy friends. Every test I have taken over many years has indicated I am "feminine". I consistently feel feminine. I have always preferred the company of females to males, and will never join a male-only voluntary group. I often bump into or step on things because the body image I have in my mind is smaller with more curves. Still, I am happy and thankful to have a body that functions well, given my age.

Still, all I want is to be able to do what society considers feminine and to have other women regard me as a peer. Like some here, I would welcome a low-dose of estrogen. I had an all too brief experience with the T-blocker finestride (for prostate problems) , which allowed my body some, mostly temporary, feminizing and a feeling of excitement and euphoria I have never experienced before or since.

Maybe, my wife of 22 years is beginning to understand. She said she doesn't understand why her women's spirituality group doesn't want her to bring me. "After all, my friend brings her [female bodied] partner." I was lying in bed on my side, when she ran her hand along my thighs and said: "Curves." She suggested one day, we play that I have the innie and she has the outie. She has helped pick out a couple of my tops.

Yet, at the end of the day, I am at a loss when trying to describe my gender. It is not my sex; it is not a cultural artifact; it is not the roles I play within the culture. I have feared all my life, others would find out what I have always known: I am not a guy. And I don't describe my gender because I can't.

S

Simone Louise, I really appreciated and felt kinship with your post. The confusion, and the reality, that appearance notwithstanding, I am not a man. But what am I and what do I want - or need - to do?

Thank you for sharing.

Kendall

Simone Louise, Welcome back good to see you. long time no see, good to see another bearded lady again. :)

Quote from: Simone Louise on December 05, 2010, 10:51:34 AM
Yet, at the end of the day, I am at a loss when trying to describe my gender. It is not my sex; it is not a cultural artifact; it is not the roles I play within the culture. I have feared all my life, others would find out what I have always known: I am not a guy. And I don't describe my gender because I can't.

Hi Simone,

Wonderful to see you back here again!

I completely relate to your difficulty of describing my gender. Inspired by Audre Lorde's "The Master's Tools Will Never Dismantle the Master's House", I feel that binary gender language is grossly inadequate for me in telling the story of who I am.

Zythyra

Simone Louise!  It's good to see you again!

As much as I've tried to abandon gender, I have found myself wanting to be more and more androgynous and feeling more male in my mind than I had been.  Weird.  I'm cool with it, it's just strange to still get confused by it from time to time.  Either way, I'm still me!