Susan's Place Transgender Resources

I've heard stuff about some TS being 'clear-cut cases' of transsexuality.
But what would make one TS a 'clear cut case' and the other not?
Or is TSism like being pregnant- you either are or you're not period, there is no in-between?
I've seen the chart about TS - if you're this , this, or that, you're a type VI transsexual, or type V, etc.
And it's primarily based on how much one desires SRS or not. But since many if not most FtMs don't have SRS (least not in the genital sense), then it just doesn't seem applicable in my case.
So the question is - is there a sliding scale of transsexuality?
It seems like it shouldn't matter, but it does to me, as I'm trying to figure things out.

Hi

I definitely believe there are varying degrees of transsexuality.  There are some people who seem to be driven to completing their transition and some who want to take it slowly to make sure they will be comfortable in their new life.  And everyone in between.  There's a lot more than wanting to live a life in the gender opposite the one you were born.  I wish it were so simple.  But everyone is different and we all have different situations affecting our decisions.

I think this is the chart below is the one you're referring to.  I felt I was Type V with some traits of Type VI.  Whatever, knowing that didn't help me at all with making my decision.  Spending time in a female role then having to go back to a male role told me all I needed to know.  I hate living life as a man!  The awful feelings inside me when I've had to revert to male made the decision easy.

Julie

TYPE 0 
Normal sexual orientation and identification, heterosexual, bisexual or homosexual. The ideas of "dressing" or "sex change" are foreign and unpleasant. Includes the vast majority of all people. 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
TYPE I - ->-bleeped-<- (Pseudo)
Gender "feeling": Masculine
Dressing Habits and Social Life: Normal male life. May get a "kick" from "dressing". Not truly TV.
Sex Object Choice and Sex Life: Usually heterosexual. Rare bisexual. Masturbation with fetish. Feels guilt. "Purges" and relapses.
Conversion Operation (SRS): Not considered in reality.
Hormone Therapy/Estrogen Therapy: Not considered. / Not indicated.
Psychotherapy: Not wanted. Unnecessary.
Remarks: Only a sporadic interest in "dressing". Rarely has a female name when "dressed".
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
TYPE II - ->-bleeped-<- (Fetishistic)
Gender "feeling": Masculine
Dressing Habits and Social Life: Lives as a man. Dresses periodically or part time. Dresses under male clothes.
Sex Object Choice and Sex Life: Usually heterosexual. May be bisexual or homosexual. "Dressing" and "sex change" in masturbation fantasy mainly.
Conversion Operation (SRS): May consider in fantasy. Rejected
Hormone Therapy/Estrogen Therapy: Rarely interested. / May help to reduce libido.
Psychotherapy: May be successful in favorable environment.
Remarks: May imitate male & female double personality with male and female names.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
TYPE III - ->-bleeped-<- - True
Gender "feeling": Masculine (but with less conviction)
Dressing Habits and Social Life: "Dresses" constantly or as often as possible. May live and be accepted as a woman. May dress under male clothes.
Sex Object Choice and Sex Life: Heterosexual except when dressed. Dressing gives sexual satisfaction, relief of gender discomfort. Common to purge and relapse.
Conversion Operation (SRS): Rejected but the idea is attractive.
Hormone Therapy/Estrogen Therapy: Attractive as an experiment. / Can be helpful as a diagnostic.
Psychotherapy: If attempted, almost never successful as to cure.
Remarks: May assume a double personality. Trend may be toward Transsexualism
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
TYPE IV - Transsexual - Non-Surgical
Gender "feeling": Uncertain Wavering between TV and TS. May reject "gender".
Dressing Habits and Social Life: "Dresses" often as possible with insufficient relief of gender discomfort. May live as man or as a woman.
Sex Object Choice and Sex Life: Libido low. Generally asexual or autoerotic. May be bisexual.
Conversion Operation (SRS): Attractive but not required.
Hormone Therapy/Estrogen Therapy: Needed for comfort & emotional balance.
Psychotherapy: Only as guidance, most often refused and unsuccessful.
Remarks: Social life dependant on circumstances. Often identifies as "transgenderist".
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
TYPE V - True Transsexual - Moderate Intensity
Gender "feeling": Feminine "Trapped" in a male body.
Dressing Habits and Social Life: Lives and works as a woman if possible. Insufficient relief from "dressing".
Sex Object Choice and Sex Life: Low libido. Asexual, autoerotic, or passive homosexual activity. May have been married and have children.
Conversion Operation (SRS): Requested.
Hormone Therapy/Estrogen Therapy: Needed for a substitute for or preliminary to SRS operation.
Psychotherapy: Rejected. Unless as to cure. Permissive psychological guidance.
Remarks: Operation hoped for and worked for, often attained.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
TYPE VI - True Transsexual - High Intensity
Gender "feeling": Feminine. Total "psycho-sexual" inversion.
Dressing Habits and Social Life: Usually lives & works as a woman. No relief from "dressing". Gender discomfort intense.
Sex Object Choice and Sex Life: Intensely desires relations with normal male as a "female" if young. Later libido low. Heterosexual, bisexual or lesbian identification. May have been married and have children.
Conversion Operation (SRS): Urgently requested and usually attained.
Hormone Therapy/Estrogen Therapy: Required for partial relief.
Psychotherapy: Psychological guidance or psychotherapy for symptomatic relief only.
Remarks: Despises her male sex organs. Strong danger of genital self-mutilation or even suicide if too long frustrated before SRS is attained.

I've never been a fan of this scale. IMHO, transvestism and transsexualism are completely seperate phenomena. I don't believe ->-bleeped-<-s "become" or evolve into transsexuals. I don't think the two are on the same scale at all. I do realize that many transvestities due in fact pursue physical changes, but their motives are different than that of transsexuals, methinks. Both often end up in the same place, but I think the motives and routes to it are completely different.

Hiee,

  I don't believe in the idea of someone being a little transexual. One either is or they aren't. If you feel a compulsion to change your physical self and your current life presentation at all and any expense to the gender you feel that you are then I would assume that you are in fact transexual. If on the other hand you have reasons that you can come up with to not do so then I would question it. A primary litmus test I think is getting rid of ones birth gendered sex hormones assuming there is not an underlying condition for those hormones being exceedingly low to begin with. A natal female I would expect while not having phalioplasty WOULD have a hystorectomy to be rid of the estrogen and progesterone and more then be willing to take testosterone as a life long replacement.

  There seems to be an increasing number of Male Cd's and ->-bleeped-<-s looking to take hormones for a minimal change to thier bodies physically and from talking with them its my impression it has ALL to do with not having to bother the prosthetics, but at the same time keeping developement to the point where it can be hidden when they present as their identified gender.

Byee,
  Brina

The main elements still remain in that Transexuals are the only ones that WILL Physically alter their bodies via hormones and surgory. The big issue today seems to be with the CD's and TV's who wish to PLAY with hormones for minimal changes but STILL IDENTIFY Totally as Male or I suppose Female. I should clarify my position slightly in this respect. I still adhere to the idea that a CD is one who periodically dresses in the clothing of the opposite sex whereas a TV lives and presents full time as such even though both IDENTIFY as thier respective birth genders. For males if one wishes to present as female and yet retain their male labido/sex drive then they are NOT Transexual in my opinion. I think the same would also apply to females.

Byee,
  Brina

Quote from: Kate on December 16, 2006, 02:29:05 PMI've never been a fan of this scale. IMHO, transvestism and transsexualism are completely seperate phenomena. I don't believe ->-bleeped-<-s "become" or evolve into transsexuals. I don't think the two are on the same scale at all. I do realize that many transvestities due in fact pursue physical changes, but their motives are different than that of transsexuals, methinks. Both often end up in the same place, but I think the motives and routes to it are completely different.

However one can fool themselves by saying they are TV.  I started out identifying myself as a crossdresser.  Then I decided transgender described me better.  I remember my wife and daughter responding with surprise.  "I thought you were a crossdresser!"  I still wouldn't admit I was transsexual then.  Then I opened Pandora's Box.

"You can't put toothpaste back in the tube."

Julie

Quote from: brina on December 16, 2006, 03:16:18 PMThe big issue today seems to be with the CD's and TV's who wish to PLAY with hormones for minimal changes but STILL IDENTIFY Totally as Male or I suppose Female.

Just to play devil's advocate, there is a theory out there that ALL gender-variant people are actually transsexuals in various stages of denial and coping, suggesting that "that there is only one cause, one conflict, one condition — but there are many reactions and adjustments to it."

Within this theory, even the most fetishistic crossdresser is simply a transsexual coping with his/her condition as best he/she can for the moment. They may never see past their immediate sexual indulges, or they may someday realize that their condition goes much deeper than they thought. But however they adapt to their condition, the cause is considered the same.

In this theory, any "scale" would only describe one's degree of self-acceptance, and not an "intensity" of dysphoria.

I must admit that this idea is much more appealing to me, poetically-speaking, then the opinon I posted previously.

Quote
TYPE VI - True Transsexual - High Intensity
Remarks: Despises her male sex organs. Strong danger of genital self-mutilation...

How can I despise my raw materials?  ???  I want the surgeon to have as much pristine material to work with as possible!

Karen

Wow!  Another labeling exercise?  I want to be a type VII - a TS person that doesn't care where in the blinkin' list she falls into!

I like the theory that Kate has told us about.  My personal experience seems to confirm the idea.  But shoving myself into an apparent hierarchy such as the "0 thru VI" list is counterproductive, in my most humble opinion.  And the comments in the list regarding orientation seen to spring out of the discredited Blanchard/Baily/Lawrence theories which makes me dislike them even more.

We are all individuals with individual genetics as well as tempraments and life experiences.  How our transsexuality affects us will be just as individual, if ya ask me.

but, Hugs & Smiles anyway!!
helen

Hiee Kate,

  I think that theory totally sux! I have yet to meet a CD or TV that doesn't express horror at the propect of loosing mr winky. In fact I have been bashed on more then one occassion for my desire to proceed with my remaining SRS by members of the proceeding group(s). I do admit though that many transexuals pass thru those phases as they learn that they are in fact transexual. As I've said before and I'll say again most of the transgender spectrum excluding transexuals seems to be interested in practicing gender deception!

Byee,
  Brina

Sorry Brina,
I do not agree with this part of your post.........

QuoteIf you feel a compulsion to change your physical self and your current life presentation at all and any expense to the gender you feel that you are then I would assume that you are in fact transexual. If on the other hand you have reasons that you can come up with to not do so then I would question it

Transitioning involves a whole lot more than just surgeries.  For many it involves spouses, loved ones, kids, arrangements, finances, geography,  etc..that is to name a broad few.
I do not question my ->-bleeped-<- one bit, but in light of not transitioning for "my reasons" it does not mean i am not valid....
These things cannot be looked at through one lens of a microscope and all be called the same.
sorry
Ricki

I like labels, as long as they convey meaningful definitions and lack ad hominim attacks.

They are clearly degrees of transsexuality. I think that when I look at my own life and ask myself why I avoided the traps I see so commonly with the older transsexuals (marriage, male presentation, being set in ways beyond change), I think it's because I felt more strongly about being a woman that others did - and this led to early transition.

I also like this 6 point scale. It also seems accurate to me - though I agree with  that it's not relevant to F2Ms.

This is also not a popular opinion, but I also think there are degrees of success in regards to transsexuality. On one end is developing skills such as voice, plausable presentation, and learning communication concordant with the self-identified gender. At the other is cognative disonance and not feeling it is important enough to learn.

Bri

I've heard some cisgendered folks say that it really doesn't matter to them what gender they are, whereas others seem to identify with their gender as strongly as the most driven of us. So I'd imagine there may be degrees of gender identity, but whether or not one is TS is not a matter of the degree but of whether or not their identity is inconsistent with their birth sex. I agree that transvestism and transsexualism don't really belong on the same scale, although I can understand how psychologists may be tempted to make scales like these that compare how much a patient resembles one or the other definition.

I admit though it's kinda cool that the description for VI describes me almost exactly. :D

Succesful transtion means to me the following: I will have moved from presenting/livng as male to my identified gender/sex of female. I will be able to function normally on a day to day basis as such and provide for myself and dependents(if any). I will be part of main stream society and related to as such. To much emphasis is placed on PURE physical appearance and to a lesser extent a overly feminine voice. These are not pre-requisites for success and interaction with society will dictate to what extent corrections need be made for acceptance.

Byee,
  Brina

Quote from:  link=topic=8521.msg61656#msg61656 date=1166294773
I've heard stuff about some TS being 'clear-cut cases' of transsexuality.
But what would make one TS a 'clear cut case' and the other not?
Or is TSism like being pregnant- you either are or you're not period, there is no in-between?

There's lots of in-between. What I read here is catagories than degrees. I view it as a spectrum of male to female (man to woman if you want too) with a huge overlap between the two in the innate feelings and public expressions (which also varys with each society and culture through history), so it's not fixed by any means.

I also see everyone as being both male and female, and man and woman, in our own proportion, like two parallel bar graphs. There is the basic nature part where we are who, and there is the nuture (socialization) which adds to both, usually one from family, friends, experience, etc. Sort of like for m2f's:

  |           |           |
  |           | _ _ _ _ |
  |_______|   New  |
  |   Old    | Nuture |
  | Nuture |_______|
  |_______|           |
  |           |           |
  | Nature | Nature |
  |           |           |
  |_______|_______|
     Male      Female

The proportion of nature of each within us varys where if the female nature is strong it will clearly present itself over any nuture. But in some, the nuture (enforced or self-induced) will subdue the female nature until it is removed and move to the female side.

And it's also variable with hormones, as we see in the our development and in our transistion. We're fluid in our identity to some degree nature provided which can explain why we can change.  And why there are infinite degrees and expressions of ->-bleeped-<-, and even transsexualism since we all become women of different personalities, temperaments and expression. Good old fashioned human diversity. Ok, sometimes run amuck.

[Personal note. I expressed this to my therapist and explained there is a little girl on top of the male nuture side jumping up and down, and it's ever so slowly breaking, cracking and wearing away. And another little girl on the other side building the new nuture side.]

Just my thoughts.

--Susan--

I've thought a good deal about that 7 level scale, too. To me, it seems to be a useful stepping stone in the evolution of understanding transsexuality and other transgender states, but a simplistic one, really. I think a more accurate scale would have to be two or three dimensional, rather than linier. We are not all experiencing different degrees of the same condition. Transsexuals seek correction. "->-bleeped-<-s" (hateful clinical word!) seek enhancement. Androgenes seek to selectively experience the range of gender identity. Each one may have it's own degree scale.

It's good to look for simpler ways of viewing the very complex, but I would take any such explanation too literally.

Quote from: Brianna on December 16, 2006, 11:59:11 PM
I like labels, as long as they convey meaningful definitions and lack ad hominim attacks.

They are clearly degrees of transsexuality. I think that when I look at my own life and ask myself why I avoided the traps I see so commonly with the older transsexuals (marriage, male presentation, being set in ways beyond change), I think it's because I felt more strongly about being a woman that others did - and this led to early transition.

I also like this 6 point scale. It also seems accurate to me - though I agree with Nero that it's not relevant to F2Ms.

This is also not a popular opinion, but I also think there are degrees of success in regards to transsexuality. On one end is developing skills such as voice, plausable presentation, and learning communication concordant with the self-identified gender. At the other is cognative disonance and not feeling it is important enough to learn.

Bri

:) 

tinkerbell :icon_chick:

Being a punkrocker, Ive allways been anti establishment... but when a lable fits it fits....  The ranking system there needs some work but I find I fit allmostperfectly into the type VI catagory  *shrugs*  Well, the more of us that become educated on the subject the better... and eventualy ittle lead to some change for the better....  remember were still trailblazeing the path for those still to come in the future....

I'm a strong type X.  That's TEN!

Yes, off the scale.

I'm luscious, I'm beautiful, I'm warm and gracious.  I'm also very modest.

Cindi

Definately not a post where there is the clearcut "black or white" labelling..
Regardless of how some percieve it or think it in their own reality. 
An old freind told me a person's perception is their reality.  So people have different realities.
this cannot be a black and white litmus...it has to have a degree of coloring.
and tsk.. tsk.. for any of us who put our issues ahead of others.  a ->-bleeped-<- is no sicker or illegitimate than we are they just have their own issues they struggle with.
enough said
with kind and endearing love for all ages
Ricki
yes the post (get it post) Xmas cheer is flowing tonight! :icon_drunk:

Hello

As you probably know I am one of those who feel that you are either a TS or you are not, there is nothing in between, yep pretty rigid, and probably narrow minded (been called that before).  We seem to have this incessant need to belong and to be ranked/graded, it is the most divisive issue we deal with.  We read the tables that are put together by learned individuals and then low and behold we take bits and pieces from the table and start defining ourselves accordingly, ya can't be a little bit pregnant.  Personally CD's, TV's, and Androgyne are not apart of who and what a TS is, just as we are not part of them and I believe to draw comparisons from these groups is wrong.  We have those who consider themselves to be non-op TS, but I would offer that they are not TS but something else.  I can't support any notion that there are degrees of TS.

Steph

I think in the end people will agree to disagree with this one....
Ricki

Quote from: Ricki on December 21, 2006, 07:26:01 PM
An old freind told me a person's perception is their reality.

Hi Ricki,
Or as the fellow who often appears on PBS puts it:  "When you change the way you look at things around you, the things around you change."

We all enter earth with a fairly blank slate but societal prejudices corrupts us all.  Why else would gays and TS's want to kill themselves?

As to any attempt to create a rigid form of seven TG/TS descriptions, again, I think it's in the mind of the viewer.  Before SRS, I felt there was a strong division between male and female.  After SRS, like many posties (so I hear), I feel there's more of a fuzzy line between male and female and that a lot (or most) of what we attribute to being male or female is society filling in the coloring book.  So, before "jumping over" to what you presume is the other side, do your due diligance (aka real life test).  There are niceties like people speaking in a more gentle friendly way to me but, overall, the world is what it is.

In terms of my personal perception (excluding society), yes, I do prefer not having that "thing"below me.  I sometimes wonder if God had just designed something more elegant and less disgusting to me, would I have transitioned?  I hear pre-op F2M's occassionaly comment that they hate their breasts.  I suppose it's the same kind of thing...leading me to the conclusion that it all was inevitable -- for me, anyway.

Everyone walks their own path, TG/TS chart or not.

Teri Anne

Very Nice Terri Ann....
Nothing ever seems as simple as it is, huh?
A rubics cube of the transgender assortment, no?
thanks again for your post and insight!
Lovingly
Ricki

Actually the table scale that Julie provided is used by the DSM to differentiate among the types of GENDER IDENTITY DISORDERS, and not the degrees of transsexuality. Transsexuals fall under group 3 of this table scale and according to the DSM, there are only two types of transsexuals: (type V - moderate intensity) and (type VI - high intensity).  The type IV (non-surgical transsexual) is considered a severe type of transvestism rather than a type of transsexuality. 

See link (http://www.symposion.com/ijt/benjamin/chap_02table.htm)

Personally, I agree with this table scale, for it seems very accurate.  As any other medical condition, transsexualism also varies in intensity, and the differences between the two types (V & VI) are pretty obvious according to the information on the DSM table scale.


tinkerbell :icon_chick:

The way I see it is I think there are different degrees of being TS, but I disagree with following a table like that.  Just do what you feel needs to be done in order to feel comfortable in your body and life.

Melissa

Quote from: Tinkerbell on December 21, 2006, 08:37:21 PM
Personally, I agree with this table scale, for it seems very accurate.  As any other medical condition, transsexualism also varies in intensity, and the differences between the two types (V & VI) are pretty obvious according to the information on the DSM table scale.

Seeing it categorized into those Groups, it makes more sense to me... though it still makes me uncomfortable for some reason. It's too rigid, the symptoms are too either/or, too black or white. In real life, it seems most of us have mixtures of these traits, or at least have had them at one time while we struggled to accept who we are.

Heck, I went backwards really on this scale for a few years. I *always* knew I needed to be a girl, yet never crossdressed (nor did I want to) until my thirties, and I DID find it erotic for awhile. But that phase faded rather quickly, and now clothes... are just clothes again as they were before. I never considered mutilating my genitals, as I never really linked them to my sex. Besides... how would that help anything? I'd rather have the appropriate parts, and must have them to be intimate sexually, but otherwise... it's just there. Ugly as heck, but the least of my worries right now. And yet, I've made serious, well-considered plans for suicide on a few occasions. And sexuality... god, what a mess. I *thought* women turned me on, now I don't think it was quite so simple. Now I see certain guys and I just CANNOT look away from them, I become enthralled, a physical reaction that I've never had before. I look at women and... they're pretty and all, but otherwise... nothing. Am I low intensity? High intensity? A TV because I found crossdressing erotic at one point in my life?

So speaking simply from a personal view, I don't fit into this scale. Or I should I say I spread all over it, naturally more in some categories than others, but it's a very messy fit.

Quote from: Kate on December 22, 2006, 11:58:27 AM
Am I low intensity? High intensity? A TV because I found crossdressing erotic at one point in my life?

So speaking simply from a personal view, I don't fit into this scale. Or I should I say I spread all over it, naturally more in some categories than others, but it's a very messy fit.

Kate, I have the same problem here, which was a major reason I came to my conclusion above.  I seem to fit mostly into the Type VI, but some pieces don't quite fit.  I have learned to accept my genitals as I have them now and when you described them as

Quote from: Kate on December 22, 2006, 11:58:27 AMUgly as heck, but the least of my worries right now.

that had me laughing, because those words could have come from me.  Although the suicide thing was a looming threat for quite a while.  Now I feel more at piece or perhaps I'm only in the eye of the storm.  Also, I did pretty much reject the therapy, so that doesn't quite fit either.  So, like I said, I stopped using the scale and am making changes necessary to be comfortable with who I am.

Melissa

Melissa this is awesome...

QuoteJust do what you feel needs to be done in order to feel comfortable in your body and life.

But it's not on the table thingie anywhere...
grrrrr......
extra holiday hugs
Ricki

Quote from: Tinkerbell on December 23, 2006, 01:29:40 AMAlso, as far as I know, I always felt "trapped" in the wrong body....so as you can see, these symptoms fall into what the DSM calls (moderate intensity transsexualism); however, my therapist always considered me a type VI based on other "experiences" associated with some "traumas" which I have never discussed here in the forums.

Even without my knowing of those traumas, your presence here on the board is soooo strongly female that personally I thought you to be unmistakably a VI anyway. :)