Susan's Place Transgender Resources

QuoteA trip to Loehmann's may turn into a lawsuit for Jane Galla. She said a popular discount clothing store wouldn't allow her to use its communal changing room because she is transgender. The complaint of two incidents is now before the New York City Commission on Human Rights. City law protects transgender people, allowing them access to facilities consistent with their gender identity.

ARTICLE (http://wcbstv.com/local/local_story_352183036.html)


tinkerbell :icon_chick:

I think that this will be an issue for years to come.  If only we had not become so persnippity about such things in the first place....

What harm does it do when personilized booths are available?  In some countries, you get no choice.  

As long as TS people come off as male, there's going to be problems where restrooms and changing rooms are concerned here in the US.

Cindi

amazing huh?  Will that be good press bad press or just much needed press for the ts community?
Funny Pittsburgh effective Jan 1st is putting the non-public smoking ban into place like NY did and Philly is doing it or following suit on the other end of the state? So of course the health system is jumping head first into that one! I need the patch now, i'll really be hosing down the coffee..
Sorry what i meant was funny how these cities can throw out these changes yet when they are violated it seems an act of God is required to negate the victim!
agghhhhhhhhh
she should sue their you know what off!
Ricki

I disagree with this somewhat. I think that women have a right to "women's only" space, within reason. I think this includes restrooms and fitting rooms. I think that it's a female thing to understand that women deserve places to feel safe.

Many trans people use this space with full priveleges as accepted members of that space. And I also agree that unfortunately not all trans people will pass. But, my point is if one doesn't pass, I think it's reasonable to understand a violation of this space is distressing to women.

So - I wish it weren't the case. But I think it's also reasonable to understand where this fear is coming from.

Bri

Quote from: Brianna on December 18, 2006, 08:52:15 PM
I disagree with this somewhat. I think that women have a right to "women's only" space, within reason. I think this includes restrooms and fitting rooms. I think that it's a female thing to understand that women deserve places to feel safe.

Many trans people use this space with full priveleges as accepted members of that space. And I also agree that unfortunately not all trans people will pass. But, my point is if one doesn't pass, I think it's reasonable to understand a violation of this space is distressing to women.

So - I wish it weren't the case. But I think it's also reasonable to understand where this fear is coming from.

Bri

You have a point there, spacekat, and I concur with you.  Unfortunately there are many psychos out there who dress in women's clothes to assault women.  We, in fact, had an incident of that sort about a year ago at work when a man dressed in a long coat and a blonde wig entered the ladies' room and started to do things with himself in front of a few nurses.  He turned out to be a schizophrenic patient who had eluded security on his way to the patio.  So yeah, the fear is quite understandable.

tinkerbell :icon_chick:

I disagree.  I present as female and use female facilities whether it be the bathroom or a changing room.  At least where I live both have separate stalls/booths/whatever.  I will see no more than I would if I were on the street or, at the most, on a beach.  Those who go in to assault, one way or another, already have laws that will deal with them.  I just want to make sure my purchases fit/the bladder is empty and be on my way, much like anyone else.

Where would you have me go?  The Mens room?  LOL.  I had to stop that before even going fulltime due to confusion, threats, etc.  Why should my safety be of less concern?

Again I pass pretty well so I do not have a lot of these concerns and have not had to deal with things like this (except when trying to use mens facilities before I went FT).  I do have to say that in all honesty, I would not care if an unpassable T came in to use the space unless they specifically did things that were not gender congruent.  IE.  Standing up to pee in the ladies room.

This is a tricky place... I tend to agree with Brianna, too. Laws aside, doesn't it really all come down to comfort issues? Even if a trans-woman has every legal right to use a facility, but is really giving off more a "male vibe" than female, than how can we expect ggs using a restroom etc. to be completely comfortable?

But than what... should we not use these places unless we're 100% passing? Like LostInTime said, we can't very well use a men's room.

It seems like the only option is to promote wider adoption of unisex restrooms, perhaps in addition to traditional female and male spaces.

BUT, this does only apply to those who aren't 100% passing -- which hopefully changes for the individual as the wears of HRT and surgery take over.

I don't agree that using the facilities has any connection to passing. I know a lot of GG women who are on the masculine side. Would they Pass? Then we get the restroom police involved. As far as the dressing rooms, it is a no brainer. You aren't trying on clothes with others, you are in a private area. Now, when I was dressing in male drag, women would come in the mens side for various reasons. To help the husband out or their children or the womens dressing room was full. The mens side is always empty.
  I do agree that if you are going to be female, please try to cover up your beard and at least shave. Try to be as fem. as you can.
Sheila

So we can be separate but equal?   ::)

Sheila, good point on masculine looking women and I have met quite a few in the recent past and one actually did have some trouble using a restroom.

Quote from: Brianna on December 18, 2006, 08:52:15 PM
I disagree with this somewhat. I think that women have a right to "women's only" space, within reason. I think this includes restrooms and fitting rooms. I think that it's a female thing to understand that women deserve places to feel safe.

Many trans people use this space with full priveleges as accepted members of that space. And I also agree that unfortunately not all trans people will pass. But, my point is if one doesn't pass, I think it's reasonable to understand a violation of this space is distressing to women.

So - I wish it weren't the case. But I think it's also reasonable to understand where this fear is coming from.

Couldn't agree more and sometimes it disheartens me to see members of our community approach these situations with a lack of sensitivity and awareness about women's needs in general.

Tinkerbell,
   That was what I was talking about. If you are going to use the facility that you are expressing yourself, well, do it and do it right. If you are female don't be shaving in the public restroom, legs, face or anything. Do what is expected of a female or a male. I do believe that we all want privacy.
Sheila

Is not the difference that between passing vs posing?  Proper transition behavior vs rude, insensitive and intrusive exhibitionism? 
One thing I feel that is overstated is the possibility of deviant behavior by some creep in the dressing room area.  Most dressing room areas are only marginally private, and certainly not isolated to where any moderate outcry wouldn't get plenty of reinforcements.  The creeps are going to act out where ever they think there can be an outcome fulfilling their warped desires, it does not matter whether it's a dark secluded alley, or a hardly isolated dressing room.  Women have a well-honed and piercing response to any surfacing of creep behavior.  There's a much bigger danger (to us) from the moronic phobia-poisoned hater, either customer or store staff.

By-the-way, store staff response is addressed in a different posting.  Perhaps they should be joined.

Susan Kay

Quote from: Sheila on December 20, 2006, 01:38:24 PM
If you are going to use the facility that you are expressing yourself, well, do it and do it right. If you are female don't be shaving in the public restroom, legs, face or anything. Do what is expected of a female or a male.

If she really needed an emrgency shave, she could have gone into a stall, sat down facing the right way and used a compact and dry shaved (that's all I do).  Definitely should have had her feet facing the fight direction.

Melissa

I see and agree with both sides?-sorry everyone is making sense here don;t you just hate when that happens.... :icon_confused2:
I once entered a mall bathroom a guys one and a woman was in there with her son changing him?  I actually was not freaked out about it although the urinals were a meager few feet away?
Hmmmmmmmm
does this mean there will be a third bathroom in our futures that have an inbetween sex  symbol on it? Uggghhhhh..........
Side note what would this symbol then be?  I beg..No polls please... :eusa_pray:
ricki

Ricki,
   In Eugene, Oregon, we  have what is called family rooms. It is a one stall bathroom for families or wheel chair people who need assistance. It is a third restroom.
Sheila

hmmmm.....  :eusa_think:
Now Sheila that is a very very novel idea..
i would think in some areas that would work just unisex rest rooms where you lock the door do your business and leave but in large areas like malls, stadiums. etc.. The 3rd room is a good idea.
Good very good add to post!
Thanks
Ricki
p.s. okay so you gotta appreciate this .......you come upon a construction site you see three green porta-potties then a foruth one a pink one who is that for???? hehe........ :icon_evil_laugh:

Okay I found a clip of an interview with this transsexual woman. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6L4kRTZ6XAA


tinkerbell :icon_chick:

My browser must suck really bad here..
I can never see some of these links posted? Darn it!
Thanks tinkerbell even thoguh i could not view it!
Grrrrrrrrrrrrr........
Sweet dreams!
Ricki

My wife is handicapped and she sometimes needs help in the bathroom.  What do I do when I'm out with her en homme?  When my 4 year old granddaughter needed to go at the McDonald's I was faced with a dilemma, which one to use?

I've always maintained that behaviour should be the determining factor on acceptance in semi-private spaces.  The whacko that was shaving in the lady's room and peeing standing up should have been reported and thrown out, if not prosecuted.  Someone who has masculine features, no matter WHAT is between their legs, should be allowed to use the facilities that are appropriate to their presentation, which is just a synonym for behavior.

Single stall, unisex bathrooms should be mandated by law in all public facilities, in my opinion.  Not just so transsexuals can pee in peace but so all who don't fit the correct stereotypes can relieve themselves and go on with their lives.

helen

Quote from: HelenW on December 27, 2006, 09:09:55 PM
Someone who has masculine features, no matter WHAT is between their legs, should be allowed to use the facilities that are appropriate to their presentation, which is just a synonym for behavior.

Presentation is a set of cues you give as to your gender.  Dressing as a woman is a cue that you are female.  Shaving your face and peeing while standing are cues that are given that you are male.  You have to weigh both sets of cues and determine which set is stronger and go with that for your choice of restroom.  Typically actions and behaviors will always be much stronger cues than how you are dressed or look.  In this case, the person was giving stronger cues they were male.

Melissa

My wife is handicapped and she sometimes needs help in the bathroom.  What do I do when I'm out with her en homme?  When my 4 year old granddaughter needed to go at the McDonald's I was faced with a dilemma, which one to use?


Helen,
   I know that in the state of Oregon and I don't know if this is true in anyother state, but if you have a person who needs help and you are the opposite gender you can use any facility to care for this person. Now, for your 4 yr old granddaughter, I would have just taken her into the mens room as you personified yourself as male. I did that with my daughter when she was young and my wife did it with our son too.
Sheila

Did I miss something?  Is this person a TS or a cross-dresser?  The only thing the article and news reports state is that this person has been living as a woman for 3.5 years.

Steph

Quote from: Steph on December 28, 2006, 12:57:49 PM
Did I miss something?  Is this person a TS or a cross-dresser?  The only thing the article and news reports state is that this person has been living as a woman for 3.5 years.

Steph

Hmm, perhaps a fulltime crossdresser?  You would think if they were actually "trying", they would have learned a little something about presentation in those last 3 and a half years.  ::)

Melissa

Full time cross-dresser would definitely put a different slant on things as presenting as a woman and being a woman are two completely different things.

Steph

Quote from: Melissa on December 28, 2006, 11:58:07 AM
  Typically actions and behaviors will always be much stronger cues than how you are dressed or look. 

As much as I wish this were true, and actions and behaviours are an important part of presentation, it's not the typical manner in which people first determine one's gender. The only time behaviour can tip the gender scale is when one looks fairly androgynous to begin with.
Ex: Picture Marilyn Monroe dressed as and behaving as male - think someone's going to mistake her for a man?

Quote from: Steph on December 28, 2006, 02:11:28 PM
Full time cross-dresser would definitely put a different slant on things as presenting as a woman and being a woman are two completely different things.

Exactly my thoughts. :)

Melissa

Quote from: Steph on December 28, 2006, 02:11:28 PM
Full time cross-dresser would definitely put a different slant on things as presenting as a woman and being a woman are two completely different things.

Steph

Steph,
I think I missed something here. She has dress and has presented herself as female for over 3 years. She is a female, whether or not she has had surgery or not. She has been discriminated against and she should be allowed to use the facilities at that store. It is open to the public and it is under public juresdiction. I do believe that the city of New York does have a Gender Identity clause in there ordinance.
Sheila

I think we're getting confused here.  I was only talking about the person Tinkerbell had mentioned.  Not the woman in the article.

Melissa

Quote from: Melissa on December 28, 2006, 01:13:50 PM

Quote from: Steph on December 28, 2006, 12:57:49 PM
Did I miss something?  Is this person a TS or a cross-dresser?  The only thing the article and news reports state is that this person has been living as a woman for 3.5 years.

Steph

Hmm, perhaps a fulltime crossdresser?  You would think if they were actually "trying", they would have learned a little something about presentation in those last 3 and a half years.  ::)

Melissa

Melissa,
  I think we were all talking about the article that Tinkerbell had put into this posting. Now, I could not use the you tube thing, but I don't believe that is what Steph was talking about anyway. The woman in the article had every right to be in the womans facilities of that store and any where else in the City of New York.
Sheila

Quote from: Sheila on December 28, 2006, 05:50:18 PM
... The woman in the article had every right to be in the womans facilities of that store and any where else in the City of New York.
Sheila

Hmmmm, are we saying that if a person dresses as a woman for three years, then that makes them a woman in every respect, even without a diagnosis.  So a cross-dresser should be afforded all the rights of a woman... It's a strange world...

Steph

This thread got interesting..
I did not see the guy/lady but given that she was supposedly "dressed" as a woman i guess either restroom would of presented a situation then; had she gone into the mens room there may have been some guys in there offended same as the ladies room?
wonder how passable she was, but trying to see all points i guess that is not the big issue "her passability"..
so since she was a ->-bleeped-<- she should of used the guys room?
i dunno not sure how to call this one?
Where are those little portable johnnies when you need one! hehe... :icon_lemon:
Ricki

No one has said this person is a ->-bleeped-<-, a cross-dresser, a TS or whatever, it just isn't clear in the story.  I was merely stating that should this be a cross-dresser that I didn't think that they should be treated as a woman.

Steph

sorry i assumed she/he was a ->-bleeped-<->
(oh goodness now what happens when Ricki assumes, we all know.... :icon_frown:)
  Lack of info on my part so anyway she/he's somewhere in the gender spectrum we would guess right?
I would not disagree with your statement at all Steph.. Guess it still goes back to which John to use?
Interesting....
ricki

Quote from: Ricki on December 28, 2006, 08:06:03 PM
sorry i assumed she/he was a ->-bleeped-<->
(oh goodness now what happens when Ricki assumes, we all know.... :icon_frown:)
  Lack of info on my part so anyway she/he's somewhere in the gender spectrum we would guess right?
I would not disagree with your statement at all Steph.. Guess it still goes back to which John to use?
Interesting....
ricki

Ya nut :)

Steph

Okay, now I am the one who is confused and I posted the article ::) ::)

Sheila:  I think that what Melissa was trying to say is that the woman from the article and the woman I saw at the movie theater are two different people. 

Steph:  You are right, none of the articles I have read says whether this person is a TS, a TV, or a crossdresser.  All the articles labeled her as a "transgender person who has lived as a woman for 3 1/2 years".

However, under NY law, discrimination against transgender individuals is prohibited.  See link (http://www.newyorkblade.com/print.cfm?content_id=1593)

Quote from: linkThe city's Human Rights Law was amended in April 2002 to broaden the scope of protection from gender discrimination by defining "gender" to include actual or perceived sex, as well as a "person's gender identity, self-image, appearance, behavior or expression, whether or not that gender identity, self-image, appearance, behavior or expression is different from that traditionally associated with the legal sex assigned to that person at birth."

The link further says:

QuoteEven when the guidelines are implemented, Park and Spade are concerned that they will be watered down. At issue are the differences between pre-op., post-op. and non-op. transgender people in the eyes of the law. While post-op. male-to-female transgender people are considered legally women, others, like Park, who choose not to have an operation, can face harassment and abuse in choosing a restroom or applying for a driver's license.

tinkerbell :icon_chick:

Quote from: Tinkerbell on December 28, 2006, 08:38:59 PM
Sheila:  I think that what Melissa was trying to say is that the woman from the article and the woman I saw at the movie theater are two different people. 

Exactly.

Melissa

If a person is a cross dresser or a pre-op TS or a post-op TS or a flat chested natal woman with a brow ridge how can you tell?  Should there be a bathroom police officer at the door to check your genitals, chromosomes, whatever?  If Mr Wobbly and his two friends are still there how can I prove I'm NOT a cross dresser?

The only thing that can be equitably used in this kind of situation is behaviour.  I do not deserve to be told to go pee in the bushes because I don't fit a stereotype.

All I want to do is pee in peace.
helen

I saw this news report. This woman needed to be shopping for a STRAIGHTENING IRON and not clothes.

Seriously. Barf.

Quote from: Brianna on December 28, 2006, 10:50:11 PM
I saw this news report. This woman needed to be shopping for a STRAIGHTENING IRON and not clothes.

Seriously. Barf.

ROFL

Quote from: Steph on December 28, 2006, 06:29:37 PM

Quote from: Sheila on December 28, 2006, 05:50:18 PM
... The woman in the article had every right to be in the womans facilities of that store and any where else in the City of New York.
Sheila

Hmmmm, are we saying that if a person dresses as a woman for three years, then that makes them a woman in every respect, even without a diagnosis.  So a cross-dresser should be afforded all the rights of a woman... It's a strange world...

Steph

How is a store woriker going to distinguish between a crossdresser and a transgender ?? Do the TG's now need to carry a sign about their person to use the facilies ??

The girl in the video whether she has seen a doctor or not was as far as I am concerned a female. She should be allowed to use the rest rooms and any other facilities she needs.

Quote from: HelenW on December 28, 2006, 10:33:30 PM
If Mr Wobbly and his two friends are still there how can I prove I'm NOT a cross dresser?

I can flash them my license. ;D

Melissa

QuoteI can flash them my license.

Not everyone can easily afford or obtain proper documentation. If someone is presenting as female, she should be able to use the fitting or rest room.

zythyra

Another option is a "carry letter" from a therapist.  If you don't have documentation at all, then you are taking a big risk using that restroom.  Personally though, I can't imagine why fitting rooms would be as big of a deal.  If you are willing to take that risk and you get called out, then you shouldn't complain just because you didn't bother to get documentation.  The fact is that transitioning is expensive.

Melissa

I was not confuse at who we were all talking about. I did make a comment early on about the woman in the movie theater, but all the rest were about the article. I think I made myself perfectly clear on that. Tell me Steph, did you use the womans facilities before your surgery and did you have your gender marker changed? Just like some of the others have said, some don't have the money to get therapy and some of the things done that need to be done. Granted, I think that if there is a will then there is a way. I believe Liegh has said that many times, money should not be the excuse for the surgery and anything else that needs to be done. Also, in that article it didn't say that this person was stripped searched or if she had ID to prove hers self. She is Transgendered and has lived her life, at least the last 3 years, as a female. I know of another lady who has lived her life as a female without surgery and she is really famous and my mind can't produce the name right now. I'm sure some of you know her, I know Robyn knows her personally.
  Well, enough of this, I will step off the orange crate and not talk about this anymore. I feel like I was back in the room with other people at a HRC meeting. Where people want to tell you that you are just making all of this up. At least I'm not facing them now.
Sheila

Virginia is her name, will think of her last name in a few minutes

Sheila I think that I've upset you and I'm really sorry if I did, it was not my intent.  Yes I did use the female facilities and I also used the female change rooms at my gym before surgery, but not until I passed.

My problem with all this is that I don't agree that just because someone wants to look like a woman/man that they should be afforded the privileges of using that genders facilities no matter how long they had been doing it (note that I said look like a woman, a TS is different).  Am I being closed minded, narrow minded, some would say yes but I don't think I am, I guess it comes down to "should I have to share personal space with a guy in a dress".

Steph

Quote from: Steph on December 29, 2006, 12:40:21 PM
Sheila I think that I've upset you and I'm really sorry if I did, it was not my intent.  Yes I did use the female facilities and I also used the female change rooms at my gym before surgery, but not until I passed.

My problem with all this is that I don't agree that just because someone wants to look like a woman/man that they should be afforded the privileges of using that genders facilities no matter how long they had been doing it (note that I said look like a woman, a TS is different).  Am I being closed minded, narrow minded, some would say yes but I don't think I am, I guess it comes down to "should I have to share personal space with a guy in a dress".

Steph

I think you are missing the point. How can the average person tell whether someone is TransGender or a Crossdresser ?? Either you allow everyone presenting as female access or you dont.

You cannot differentiate between a crossdresser and a preop. Without some sort of documentation there is really no difference between them. Sure the Transgender feels different about who they are but how are you going to be able to tell ?

I do not think showing a license/letter is the answer either it is demeaning how many women have to show theirs to enter a changing room ? You are just setting us up for a load of discrimination.

Also sharing personal space with a man in a dress is somthing others have done with you even though inside you are female. There are a lot of differnet types of people that I would prefer not to share my space with but at the end of the day it is something you have to put up with

Quote from: Catherine on December 29, 2006, 12:48:34 PM
I do not think showing a license/letter is the answer either it is demeaning how many women have to show theirs to enter a changing room ? You are just setting us up for a load of discrimination.

I'm only talking about if you get called out on it.  I had a carry letter and now I have my driver's license.  I always carry some kin dof documentation.  However, I have NEVER had to show it to anybody for using a restroom or changing room.  It's more like backup.

Melissa

Quote from: Catherine on December 29, 2006, 12:48:34 PM

Quote from: Steph on December 29, 2006, 12:40:21 PM
Sheila I think that I've upset you and I'm really sorry if I did, it was not my intent.  Yes I did use the female facilities and I also used the female change rooms at my gym before surgery, but not until I passed.

My problem with all this is that I don't agree that just because someone wants to look like a woman/man that they should be afforded the privileges of using that genders facilities no matter how long they had been doing it (note that I said look like a woman, a TS is different).  Am I being closed minded, narrow minded, some would say yes but I don't think I am, I guess it comes down to "should I have to share personal space with a guy in a dress".

Steph

I think you are missing the point. How can the average person tell whether someone is TransGender or a Crossdresser ?? Either you allow everyone presenting as female access or you dont.

I agree, they can't.  I just don't agree that a person who is a cross-dresser should be afforded the same rights.  Generally speaking the laws as they are written now allow for areas that are female or male only, and everyone who uses these facilities is assumed to be the gender they present as.  If a person is discovered to be a cross-dresser, or TV then I believe they should be restricted from those facilities.

QuoteYou cannot differentiate between a crossdresser and a preop. Without some sort of documentation there is really no difference between them. Sure the Transgender feels different about who they are but how are you going to be able to tell ?

I'm afraid that there are many instances where you can tell.

QuoteI do not think showing a license/letter is the answer either it is demeaning how many women have to show theirs to enter a changing room ? You are just setting us up for a load of discrimination.

I don't see where I said that.  I have never, ever advocated the carrying of papers, documents, licenses, or any other form of documentation to prove who and or what I am, and I would never support such a notion.

QuoteAlso sharing personal space with a man in a dress is somthing others have done with you even though inside you are female. There are a lot of differnet types of people that I would prefer not to share my space with but at the end of the day it is something you have to put up with

It is something that I don't have to put up with but something I accept.

Steph

I think that there is a large misconception about the safety of women's restrooms and fitting rooms.  Many women think the women's room will be a safe place for them when, in fact, it's not. There is more abuse against women in the women's room than anyone would imagine. Also, the more bystanders, the less likely that anyone will step up and do something about it. So, letting the transgendered use this so-called "sacred space" isn't going to make any more of a difference than if they're not allowed to use it.

Women are a heck of a lot more capable of fighting back then they even think they are. I can't tell you how many people I've scared off without even committing assault! And I'm probably one of the least scary looking people you'll meet (until I summon my Women's Wrath technique!  >:D)

Anyways, I've said it once and I'll say it again: The best solution for this would be the avaiability of single-use gender neutral restrooms. Not TRANSGENDER restrooms, because who in their right mind would out themselves like that?!  But I myself would use a unisex restroom if it's single use, because I like the extra privacy (and it helps if you have a shy bladder!)  If somebody doesn't pass or just doesn't feel comfortable choosing a gender-specific facility, well, they can use that room and not have unwanted attention for it. 

When the "family bathroom" is unavailable, I usually accompany Jocelyn to women's room. It's seems like if other women see me allowing it, they're okay with it.  And I usually act as "look out" for getting her into a stall unnoticed and letting her know when the coast is clear to come out of the stall. We do try to avoid needing the bathroom, but it's not always that easy. She tries not to drink anything so that she won't have to go, but then if I have to go, I bring her with me because I won't leave her alone in public (and she doesn't want to be left alone in public).  So, it's a bit of work but nothing really bad has happened so far. 

Please, in the final analysis, It is a human right to have reasonable accommodation for bodily relief.  We all have to do it, and have to work with what accommodations exist.  That has nothing to do with clothes trying on, toes out peeing, shaving, exhibitionism, planned or impulse assault, or any other activity or display besides urinating and general primping.   

I have an obligation not to violate any-one's space or to not deliberately offend others in using this right by being gender appropriate in appearance and behavior; everyone has an obligation not to violate mine.

Susan Kay

I think this cake has been filled, layered, iced and sliced, and all but eaten...
Yum!
Ricki

Quote from: Catherine on December 29, 2006, 12:48:34 PM

You cannot differentiate between a crossdresser and a preop. Without some sort of documentation there is really no difference between them.

??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ???  ??? ???

Sorry Catherine, but I disagree.  I could give a few examples but I'm afraid that wouldn't be appropriate for me to do here in these forums.  However, something tells me that you know what they are and what I am talking about.


tinkerbell :icon_chick: