Susan's Place Transgender Resources

Today, a bus driver (who probably needed sleep, but anyway), called me miss (this is not mean in French) after seeing me from close-up and looking at me in the eyes, while I've not started transition (still sad to say), I had a three-day beard, and I was wearing male clothes (well, my grey winter hat and black mittens are women's, but they're not all that feminine, and I WAS wearing a bag like a purse, but it's a black grocery bag) and never apologized or anything. I was happy. But that's not the point.

I started thinking about whether I should be happy to be happy with so little, and concluded I shouldn't have worried about it. Eventually, I wondered about more (yeah, bus rides are long even for short distances here). I remembered how I was almost kinda happy when I was told I was too perfectionist, how I sometimes manipulated people, or other stereotypically feminine qualities that can be regarded as bad.

The thing is, I'm kind of starting to feel like an hypocrite bitch for being happy about drawbacks I have. I think I might be needing to be comforted or told what to do here.

But I'd also like to ask about you - nothing forces you to say that however : How do you feel about it ? Did you experience similar mixed feelings ? How did/do you deal with them ?

MTFs as well as FTMs are invited to post, as it can probably apply equally to both of our groups. Just different characteristics for FTMs, I guess.

Evil double post.

I see Nero read this then left without replying, and I think Nero has often replied to me, so I feel I should clarify this : the fact I invite MTFs and FTMs to post doesn't mean I won't be happy with posts from people from other groups ! (even though we're all really a big spectrum-based group, but let's not get on these technicalities).

Quote from: A on October 27, 2010, 08:33:27 PM
Evil double post.

I see Nero read this then left without replying, and I think Nero has often replied to me, so I feel I should clarify this : the fact I invite MTFs and FTMs to post doesn't mean I won't be happy with posts from people from other groups ! (even though we're all really a big spectrum-based group, but let's not get on these technicalities).

I just wanted to think about it first.  :)

Oh. I thought you thought I was rejecting you :(.

Hi A, is there any reason why you would name someone who has read your post and not replied?  ???

About your first post, I think if you are happy why over analyse it?  And if you are being addressed as miss and not dressed or presenting as female, well you can only go up from here on in , so you should be happy.  ;D

Not too keen on the manipulation bit though, that's not a great attribute for either sex IMO and it's not a classic feminine quality either. Plenty of guys as girls manipulate others, whether in business, personal or for general attention seeking.  :)

I know, that's why I feel bad.

(But socially, I still think stereotypes describe women as manipulating more than men, who confront each others more directly, I think)

And about Nero, uh, it's just that he's always been like super-fast replying and I thought I'd made him afraid or something.

You are over analyzing everything, hon.  we tend to do it, because of the hiding for so long.  Just go with it when you get a good comment and drop it when they are not so good.  If you don't you will drive your self nuts.

And there is not much that can scare our Number Two.  He is not only tough, but a cute cuddly bear.

I'm aware of it especially before I transitioned how compliments hurt and insults feel warm sometimes. Leading to encouraging bad behaviours and discouraging the good.

A friend called me a "Cowardly little girl" Obviously in a negative way yet I felt it as a compliment.
Another female friend described me as having "attractive strong male attributes" I was internally so crushed to hear that I didn't continue the conversation.
An elderly man called me "A true gentleman when he saw me help and old lady with her bags then gave some money to a charity collector." and of course I thought "So that's what I get eh?"

Oh sure  :D

"Oh Griffin, you're such a man."  Translation: you're an idiot, you don't get it, you're being a jerk, and I'm pretty sure you farted.  ;D

On the compliment side I've been told that my name is "so pretty!" like a thousand times now haha.  Hoo boy. 

Yes. Apparently leaving your dirty socks around the house is considered very manly, because one day my mum rushed into my room with an annoyed look on her face (she's very perfectionistic) and said: "You're such a disgusting man!" I was happy the whole week but I also felt pathetic for feeling like this ...

When I was in my teens, I had no facial hair but my head hair was long. I was often mistaken for female, mainly by those who were preoccupied with other things, like bus drivers.

I absolutely loved it.

We are very vulnerable emotionally when we finally start to show our inner selves, so any small compliments are treasured as validations and any small insults hurt much more.  Especially in the beginning we are very tuned in to how people perceive us, and we take their reactions to us as having much more meaning than we would if we weren't transitioning (or questioning).

We are also looking for validation - from others and from ourselves.  We want to be reassured that we really are women (or men) even though our bodies don't show it.  I don't know about others, but I was well into RLE before I was absolutely sure that I am a woman.  And how I felt after GRS solidified that surety.

As to manipulation being a female trait, it tends to be so in cultures where women are not allowed to assert themselves openly.  When women are permitted to be themselves, they tend to be less manipulative and manipulation is no longer a feminine trait.

- Kate

Quote from: K8 on October 28, 2010, 08:38:42 AM

As to manipulation being a female trait, it tends to be so in cultures where women are not allowed to assert themselves openly.  When women are permitted to be themselves, they tend to be less manipulative and manipulation is no longer a feminine trait.

- Kate

That's an interesting point. I know I'm quite manipulative. Not in a negative way. I do it to survive and get out of situations which otherwise might be a problem.

Can you expand upon it, Kate?

Quote from: spacial on October 28, 2010, 08:51:02 AM
That's an interesting point. I know I'm quite manipulative. Not in a negative way. I do it to survive and get out of situations which otherwise might be a problem.

Can you expand upon it, Kate?

This is just something that I've noticed in my travels.  I don't have any literature or studies to back it up.  I believe that people will sometimes use manipulation as a coping mechanism when other avenues are closed to them.  I first noticed it in the American South years ago, when women's roles were more restricted than today (think "Gone With the Wind", although I'm not that old), but I've seen it other places, too.

- Kate

Thank you Kate. I hadn't realised that.

Come to think of it, apart from Africa, where I've only been briefly, most of the societies I've been in have more or less offered women similar status.

France might be a little different. But women tend to be held in such high regard there.

Interesting point.

Quote from: spacial on October 28, 2010, 08:51:02 AM
That's an interesting point. I know I'm quite manipulative. Not in a negative way. I do it to survive and get out of situations which otherwise might be a problem.

It is interesting that you find manipulation as either negative or positive? IMO, it is negative and definitely not indicative of being female.   ;D  It's a personality trait that is inherent or learned.

I never said it was indicative of being female but that society deems manipulation as more feminine than masculine.

Quote from: Hermione01 on October 28, 2010, 05:57:08 PM
It is interesting that you find manipulation as either negative or positive? IMO, it is negative and definitely not indicative of being female.   ;D  It's a personality trait that is inherent or learned.

I would say negative manipulation is when you seek to gain. Manipulation is essentially, taking advantage of the insecurities and weaknesses of others. I mostly find that massaging other's egos, especially when they are a bit weak in that area.

I also have to say, I'm a total sucker for kids. They can usually manipulate almost anything out of me.

Quote from: A on October 28, 2010, 06:34:23 PM
I never said it was indicative of being female but that society deems manipulation as more feminine than masculine.

Could that be because it is generally accepted that women need to manipulate while men can stand up for themselves and be assertive?

I don't think so. I think it's more about men being more competitive in a way (hormones do this I believe, a bit like in other animals) and more of them having "straight out and simple" personalities for some reason. Or not, I'm not sure whether I get it or not.

My girlfriend's mom calls me a dirty/ yucky/ stinky/ icky boy all the time because I come to their house after glassblowing class all stinky and sweaty (2400 degree furnaces are rough!) And even though it's an insult, it still makes me feel good. But then again, she also commends me for protecting her daughter like 'a man should'.
I used to get offended when people said I was cute. I know I am, and that I'll probably always be just cute, and I know they mean it as a compliment, but it still hurts. Now though, I'm over it. It doesn't bug me much anymore. But still.

In early transition any kind of validation is welcome, be it negative or positive. I think it's perfectly okay to embrace those instances that make us feel good, whether it's a good or a bad thing.

I agree with both sides here. Manipulation comes from both sides of the board, and though not to everyone, it is seen as a 'woman' thing to do (though I think that stereotype is a little inaccurate, personally. Men are just more up front) But I see manipulation as either bad or good. Everyone does it, whether it's rarely or everyday. The way you describe what you do, A, I don't think it's wrong for you to say you are manipulative, it's pretty normal. You use it for self preservation, which is vital, especially for transgendered folks.

(Made some edits. :x Apparently I'm too tired to type right. Lol.)

Thanks Morgan, that post sure was nice.

Quote from: Morgan on October 30, 2010, 08:53:42 PM

I agree with both sides here. Manipulation comes from both sides of the board, and though not to everyone, it is seen as a 'woman' thing to do (though I think that stereotype is a little inaccurate, personally. Men are just more up front) But I see manipulation as either bad or good. Everyone does it, whether it's rarely or everyday. The way you describe what you do, A, I don't think it's wrong for you to say you are manipulative, it's pretty normal. You use it for self preservation, which is vital, especially for transgendered folks.

I am sorry to A and spacial, but I have a bit of a bugbear regarding manipulation.  :) And in my experience I have found it to be in both sexes equally.

I agree Morgan about manipulation being a personality trait rather than a gender thing though.

My example of how I understand manipulation; it can be used to coerce another to sleep with them because if they 'really loved them' they would. 
It can be used to stop another from leaving because they will kill themselves if they do. It can be used to make someone feel guilty and so you must do what they want to set things right or pay the consequences. It can stop someone from changing their life or make choices because it will devastate them if you do.
It's also called being played. I would hate to think I have ever done that to another human being except maybe as a child.

I would really like to hear of examples where manipulation is used for self preservation? Keeping secrets or leading another to believe something that may be different from reality, is not manipulation as I understand it.
Please could I have some positive examples of harmless manipulation?. :)

Hermione, great post!

I've used manipulation for good, though I wouldn't say I'm a manipulative person. I very rarely do anything that would be considered that, it's just not really who I am. That being said, I do have a few examples for you of where it can be good or neutral or what have you, some I've concocted, and some I've experienced or done.

One for good is that my girlfriend Elaine has struggled with a very painful past and was, and still is sometimes, very suicidal. One time I had to pull the old 'if you love me you won't do it' which is manipulative. It stopped her, so there you have it, I suppose. If I hadn't manipulated her out of suicide, she wouldn't be here. I'm sure that's not the only instance I've used such means to bring her back from the edge.

As far as transition goes, I can't think of any examples. We'll have to hear from A on that bit :)

For the harmless section of manipulation, say you're trying to convince someone to go see a movie with you, but they don't really feel like it? Well you could manipulate them into it, (Think, 'when's the last time we hung out? do you not want to hang out?' or something similar.) and you both end up having a good time anyways. That's pretty harmless. You're not convincing them to do something they wouldn't have enjoyed, but in my opinion that's still fairly manipulative.

First of all, I want to say that I'm not transitioning in any way, nor do I want to, but I will say that I'm comfortable with both my sides.

With that said, it isn't particularly bad that you feel comfortable with your own skin right now, despite being clocked wrong. In fact, I welcome the attitude over being sad about your current disposition any day.

I think this needs some explanation: From my observation, in the community and outside of it, there's a subset of people who want to primarily focus their transition and get so obsessed with it that they forget to stop and smell the roses. Life is life, before, during, and after transition, and I think your attitude right now will bring a lot more positive energy in your life and make your transition a bit more meaningful than just the medication and the steps you gotta finish to become who you want to be.

I firmly believe with taking the good with the bad, but focusing on the good and learning from the bad. If I get clocked wrong, whoops! Let's learn from it. If I get a sincere complement, I take it and lavish in it. It seems like a very narcissistic attitude, but if there's anything my boss has told me is to take complements well and never deny it. After all, it only means that you're doing things right.

</rant> :)

Well, I think most of us unconsciously manipulates to some degree. And one doesn't need to lie to manipulate. For example, tomorrow, I will manipulate the psychiatrist into believing me and starting my transition. I will need to, because if I don't, he'll do like everyone I've talked to, manipulate me into saying it "may not be that urgent after all".T

That's self-preservation, as it's very easy to make me admit something I don't believe into through manipulation. The same applies when looking for a job. I have to manipulate the interviewer into thinking I'm a good candidate - just saying the truth won't do if one hasn't good self-confidence.

Let us not lie to ourselves - manipulation is at the basis of our world, and trying to manipulate no one, as I've long done, will do nothing but put one at a disadvantage. But I'm not saying it's good. Just that it's necessary sometimes. It's sad but it's the way the world works.

And thanks Lexine - a post of positiveness is always good to take.

I've been accused of being naïve, and perhaps I am.  I told my therapist what was bothering me, how I felt, what I thought I wanted and needed.  As best I could be, I was honest and open with her.  She helped me through transition, sometimes asking me questions I needed to deal with even though I didn't want to.  There was never any doubt that she would write the letter for surgery because I had grown to trust her to be honest with me, just as I was honest with her.

When I interviewed for jobs I was honest about what I was able to do and what I couldn't do or didn't like to do.  Certainly there was a little puffery – I would stress what I thought were my good points and downplay the bad, but I don't see that as manipulation.  When I was hired, it was for a job that I wanted and I was a good fit for the organization because they knew what to expect.

Manipulating someone away from harming themselves or others is different.  And you can wheedle a friend into hanging with you as long as you know when he is vacillating and when he really doesn't want to.  But I just don't see the advantage of trying to manipulate someone into doing something I think I want but is against their better judgment.

JMHO

- Kate

I just discovered how this kind of remarks can be stressful if not expected. I was having dinner with my classmates, one guy was pouring me wine, spilled it all over my hand and asked "You're not really a girl, are you?" It caught me completely off-guard, in one second I had a tornado rushing through my head, I was thinking what the hell, where did this question come from, what is the context, was it supposed to be funny or insulting, why did he pour wine on me?? Even more, the guy that knows about me was sitting next to him and watching my reaction and I panicked even more. But luckily, my reflexes were good and I could save myself with a question: "What makes you think so?" Then he explained a girl should be able to do more things at the same time (apparently I was unfocused and lost control over the hand that was holding the glass) so I could start breathing again. :D