Susan's Place Transgender Resources

(I know hormones are dangerous so i don't need another lecture.)

FML!!
Right, I was buying hormones online and have been taking them for about 3 months.
anyway, today i awoke to my mum saying "I want a serious talk with you" to which i replied erm, WTF?  ???
So i went downstairs and they gave me a huge lecture about how "my" doctor thinks i'm killing myself and how these hormones aren't what "transsexuals" should be taking. Tbh, i laughed. (Just for the record i was taking Spironolactone and Estrofem.) IKR? ::)
I went back upstairs and notice my hormones were in fact missing and immediately went crazy... so after a huge screaming fit, They finally told me that the doctor took them.. Ahhh, My god, I just cannot explain how much i hate my parents right now

I can't stop crying...
All the changes i have gone through emotionally and physically are ruined just like that...
I can't go back, I just can't.  :'(

After tons of counselling i finally got my appointment at The London Gender Clinic but it's scheduled for May 2011.... and i CANNOT wait that long!!

P.S The doctor has also given me an appointment for Wednesday to make sure i haven't done any "damage".

This happened to me once... All I can say is you can get through this and you will be ok. Any changes that reverse in the short term can come back. I know things are really hard right now and emotions are running high, but i know from personal experience things will work themselves out if you give it time.

If you need someone to talk to feel free to message me.

So what happened?  Your doctor came into your house and took the medications?  Or are you living in some kind of clinic under medical care?  It's very confusing, because doctor's don't normally make house calls.  It sounds to like your parents are lieing, or else you are getting some kind of abnormal treatment that sets off alarms. 

If they are treating you like you are crazy for wanting to transition, I just can't think of any reason to put up with that.  I was watching the movie, "Harvey Milk," recently, and he got a call from an oppressed teen asking for help and he told that child to get on a bus and go to a big city.  Years later, he got a call from that kid thanking him for the advice.  You know whether or not you are being abused, psychologically or otherwise.  I just hope you don't think you have to put up with that sort of thing.

Quote from: glendagladwitch on November 01, 2010, 08:18:49 PM
So what happened?  Your doctor came into your house and took the medications?  Or are you living in some kind of clinic under medical care?  It's very confusing, because doctor's don't normally make house calls.  It sounds to like your parents are lieing, or else you are getting some kind of abnormal treatment that sets off alarms. 

If they are treating you like you are crazy for wanting to transition, I just can't think of any reason to put up with that.  I was watching the movie, "Harvey Milk," recently, and he got a call from an oppressed teen asking for help and he told that child to get on a bus and go to a big city.  Years later, he got a call from that kid thanking him for the advice.  You know whether or not you are being abused, psychologically or otherwise.  I just hope you don't think you have to put up with that sort of thing.

Nooo, My parents came in my room whilst i was sleeping, took my hormones and went to see my doctor. Other members of my family were like "you shouldn't buy medication from the internet" So i guess they were just worried. Still that doesn't make it hurt any less.
FYI, My parents are fine with me "transitioning" so it's obviously not out of spite. They told me that they want me to do it the "right way", without the risks.

Quote from: Kaelleria on November 01, 2010, 08:01:54 PM
This happened to me once... All I can say is you can get through this and you will be ok. Any changes that reverse in the short term can come back. I know things are really hard right now and emotions are running high, but i know from personal experience things will work themselves out if you give it time.

If you need someone to talk to feel free to message me.

Oh, I'm Sorry.
But thanks for the advice! :)
I'm sure things will get better... i just hope they do so sooner rather than later.

There is something to be said to doing something via a doctor. For one its a bit cheaper and in some cases safer. I'm not going to give you a big lecture on self medicating... did it myself a few times.

Look on the bright side of all this, you're going to go to a gender clinic. This is a huge step in the right direction. You may even be able to convince your doctor to speed up the process a bit after talking with him.

The bottom line in this all is by doing this your parents are showing you that they care about you. Even if the immediate results suck and they do suck, they're just trying to do whats best for their child. Try not to fault them too much for that.

My suggestion for you is to make a goal for yourself and stick to that goal. It doesn't necessarily have to be anything trans related. Just make that goal and try to adhere to it. If that goal gets accomplished make a new one. This will help a bit with the waiting.

UK still refuses to allow under 18's to transition as obviously at that age we cannot know our own minds  :D  But the day after our 18th birthday we are suddenly wise and can take charge of our life.
As you'r feeling so distressed the only thing you can do is call the doctor's for an appointmnet and go talk to him or preferably another one and ask for some help for the next 6 months.

I'd simply hold myself hostage. I'd tell them "you fail to understand me or my health needs... and that prior to taking those I was planning to castrate myself and that I wouldn't last the waiting period, So what would YOU prefer? I might not have all the answers, But you don't even understand the question."

You could get more and send them to a sympathetic friend or something?

Mine's not going to be a positive input - sorry - but I hope you can see where their concern might be coming from. Self-medicating is dangerous if you're not getting much in the way of medical supervision, and your parents will feel much safer if you have that support there. It's tricky though, because I'm very aware it's mostly just opinion: I chose not to self-medicate because I have those same worries myself. Even if the cost (vs. prescription) were not a factor in this choice, I'd still be very anxious about forcing change upon my body without rigorous supervision. At the very least it means that if I do develop some issues, I can go to a doctor who knows precisely what I have been doing to myself.

The wait for GIC appointments is frighteningly long, but we do get through it. I had to wait from December through to just last Monday, and still won't have a hope of hormonal prescription until February at the earliest, but there are systems in place to help fast-track those in real need. The wait also serves a pretty good function, as it's allowed me to get (moderately) comfortable without medical intervention. I (naively) think that's why the wait exists at all, 'cos anything I can do without causing myself permanent change is going to be healthier in the short term.

I am surprised that your doctor took the hormones off you at all - that sounds most irregular - but I hope things work out. Please do try to include your parents in that medication, too. It sounds great if they're open to your transition, but their biggest fears will be for your well-being, and sneaking medication in like that is bound to cause them some panic.

I'm really sorry for your frustrations. I'm also sorry to say that I have to agree.

These hormones are dangerous if not properly monitored. Moreover, buying from the net, you really don't know what you're getting.

Also, they could be out of date. Hormones especially change to quite nasty things when they get old, or if they haven't been stored properly.

You have parents that are supportive. I strongly suggest you look up to the heavens and thank whoever you believe in that he gave you those parents.

Mine use to kick the crap out of me in the belief it would toughen me up and make me a man.

I thought it was protocol to prescribe antiandrogens, like spiranolactone, to transitioners under 18.  Do they not do that in the UK?

They may. Depends upon the Dr.

But in this case, it seems that there is an appointment at The London Gender Clinic upcoming. So, with that in mind, presumably the Dr has decided to leave the decision to the specialists.

However, taking drugs bought over the net is dangerous.

Quote from: glendagladwitch on November 02, 2010, 05:58:21 PM
I thought it was protocol to prescribe antiandrogens, like spiranolactone, to transitioners under 18.  Do they not do that in the UK?

No, The UK system is massively more draconian and barbaric than you might think and is several decades behind the rest of the world. They force you to go through your 'natural' puberty regardless of how young you manifest. as an attempt to "straighten you out"

Justanotherdreamer

You may find it helpful to look here:
http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/transsexual-uk-hormones/?yguid=120189669]
[url]http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/transsexual-uk-hormones/?yguid=120189669 (http://[url) [/url]

For more information and advice.

Caroline

That's great to hear honey.

I think your parents were really wise. Don't feel too hard towards them. It sounds like they really care for you and just want you to do it right. I know it can feel like a race against time to start hormones, but trust me babe, waiting is not going to hurt you in the long run. 

Obviously the doctor can see your level of distress, you are being taken seriously.

My advise, give those parents of yours a hug and thank them for their support and apologize for scaring them, but explain how fierce the need is.

Great news.

This is going to be so much better than taking dodgy pills you buy from somewhere on the net.

Hope you tell us how it's all progressing. Are your parents still supportive? Have they mentioned the pills to you again? How are your friends dealing with things?

Quote from: Nicky on November 03, 2010, 11:55:34 PM
That's great to hear honey.

I think your parents were really wise. Don't feel too hard towards them. It sounds like they really care for you and just want you to do it right. I know it can feel like a race against time to start hormones, but trust me babe, waiting is not going to hurt you in the long run. 

Obviously the doctor can see your level of distress, you are being taken seriously.

My advise, give those parents of yours a hug and thank them for their support and apologize for scaring them, but explain how fierce the need is.

Yes, Nicky is right. 

You are young, and so your feelings are very intense.  Patience, oh young one, patience.  You WILL transition ... the right way ... on pharmaceutical-grade hormones ... under competent medical supervision.  Might it just be that your parents SAVED your life rather than ruined it?  Maybe!  In fact, I'd say, "Yes, they did!"  A few years down the line, I believe you'll look back on all this and agree.  Give it time and give it a chance.  Patience. 

Many of us on here, myself most definitely included, waited decades ... DECADES ... to transition.  Frustration?  Off the charts.  Anger.  Big time.  The blues?  Every day.  We made it through this all.  You will make it through this all too.  You will ... you really will. 

Once you're calmed down a bit, kindly and humbly ... thank your parents.  No joke.  Tell them you love them for being worried about your safety.  Then, clearly explain to them what you are going through.  They will have questions and doubts. 

Direct them ... HERE!  This is one of the best trans resources on Planet Earth.  Many on here would agree with me on this.  Susan's Place has got it all:  Abundant and accurate information and references ... a friendly, supportive and tight community ... ever-growing content and helpful aides to people like us. 

Thank your parents for loving you.  Thank yourself or having the courage to face your transsexuality so young and to do something about it.  Thank Susan Larsen for this website.

You've got friends, you know.  Where?  Right here.   

;)   Smile, honey girl!

Your transition is going to happen ... in its due time.   We're here for you.  E-hugs!

no I am not horrified, a bit more time on T is worth it if you are more likely to come out the end of it healthier and with better relationships. There is no need to panic here.

The dysphoria in you is reacting strongly to the thought of this girl having to wait a bit longer. Its hard, but I think it is wise. We live a long time. 6 months or so in the scheme of things is nothing.

Seven.

Speaking for myself. I don't forgive anyone. But when you're up against a brick wall, it's time to stop and wait for someone to open the gate. If you take the metaphore.

These people have absolute power. They can say anything and their word is gospel. They can do, pretty much as they please. To access any stage of SRS you need to enter into the mental health roundabout. Once you're on that, these people can imprison you indefinately, they can drug you with anythign they choose, they can even use electrical labotomies.

Or, they can also throw you out, refuse to have anything further to do with you. In either case, you are, to coin a term, Screwed.

In short, you need to deal with very powerful and potentially dangerous people, each with an ego that needs to be massaged. That is the price we must all pay.

There's an old army joke. What do you call a man who points a gun at you. Answer: Sir.

Now do you get the point. Go with the flow. Keep very calm. Don't antogonise these people or raise issues that are not relevant. Just play their game.

I think they will know what's right thing is if someone abuses maltreats or torments you sure you play there game when they've got the gun but the moment they don't you take there gun and sodomize them with it... Depending on the person if they are naive to the suffering they are causing this ultimate end may not be needed.

Quote from: pebbles on November 05, 2010, 09:02:11 PM
I think they will know what's right thing is if someone abuses maltreats or torments you sure you play there game when they've got the gun but the moment they don't you take there gun and sodomize them with it... Depending on the person if they are naive to the suffering they are causing this ultimate end may not be needed.

Thanks for the message, I tried replying but it won't let me?

Quote from: JustAnotherDreamer on November 06, 2010, 02:08:38 PM
Thanks for the message, I tried replying but it won't let me?

If you are talking about a PM, then you won't be able to until you are at 15 posts.

I have been watching this and as one of those who has suffered because of T-poisoning, I have been hopeful that you would have at least been give anti-androgens.

Quote from: Janet Lynn on November 06, 2010, 02:21:30 PM
If you are talking about a PM, then you won't be able to until you are at 15 posts.

I have been watching this and as one of those who has suffered because of T-poisoning, I have been hopeful that you would have at least been give anti-androgens.

Ohh, OK thanks.

I agree! The thought of becoming more "manlier" is pretty daunting...
As of right now i pass pretty well and luckily have very little facial hair but a lot can change in 6 months and emotionally i don't think i can deal with that. :(

Quote from: Seven on November 04, 2010, 11:50:16 PM
I realize I am rather extreme but I cannot believe you girls aren't horrified at the fact the OP is being expected to submit to further T-poisoning, and not only that but are actively encouraging her to lie back, accept it and be grateful for it? It boggles my mind. How many here would kill to have started a year earlier? OP had the chance and her parents stole it. To my mind that's the worst betrayal imaginable, regardless of motives.

You are certainly entitled to your opinion, and I certainly respect it and you.  However, I beg to differ.

Illicit hormones and incorrect administration are apt to be far, far, far more dangerous to her than any alleged "T poisoning."  Hormones are IMMENSELY POWERFUL chemicals.  Their correct administration under competent medical guidance dispenses them very gradually in concentrations of parts-per-billion in order to effect profound changes at the microcellular level at a deliberately gradual pace, like occurs naturally in natal females during their pubescence, to ensure the safety of the patient.  These very words were spoken to me by the doctor who oversees my very own HRT.  That doctor is herself a fully-transitioned transsexual woman, by the way.  She's also one of the handful of top transsexual-transition doctors in the country.  I believe she knows what she's talking about, both by professional reputation and by having transitioned herself.

Lastly, the girl who started this thread is very young.  Even another year or two under the influence of natural testosterone in her body will not make much difference at her age.  Once she's on pharmaceutical-grade HRT under the direction of an accredited doctor at the proper dosage and frequency, her transition will proceed as marvelously and as rapidly as her genetics permit. 

What she's got going for her is youth.  Many of us on here were twice her age, or more, before we took the first dose of HRT.  I am among them.  T "poisoned" me for 54 years.  I'm doing fine!  I'm developing one hell of a hot shape, developing breasts which are starting to fill in very nicely and am very happy.  Of course, I work at staying in shape.  At my age, one has to if they want to be in good shape.

Now, if I can achieve superb results at my age, our young friend here can way, way surpass my results ... by virtue of her youth.  Her overall health takes precedence over "T poisoning."  For all intents and purposes, her parents stopped her from taking illicit dope copped over the internet.  I salute them!  That s--t could REALLY hurt her ... even kill her. 

Once she gets safe HRT given the right way by real doctors, she'll have excellent results and, I daresay, will be thrilled that she did it the right way in the future.   

Again, it's okay if you disagree.  To each their own opinion.  Peace   ...    :)   ...   Lacey

I tend to disagree. I used to be very focused on doing things the right way and I went through the Danish GIC myself, which ended up taking 23 months before I got started on HRT. I hear simmilar stories from UK women.

I wanted to go through the official route to be safe and sure and to be able to talk everything through before starting, but I found a system which explicitly wanted to observe rather than support me, a system, which officially claims their sole role is to investigate whether anything can be held against your transition and a system which expected me to repeatedly state how much I wanted to transition. Whatever doubts I had or whichever problems I encountered transitioning at school, work and in my family I found I had to hide away in order not to give them anything to hold against me. Instead of doing things in a way suiting me and with honesty I found locking myself more and more into a story, which fitted their needs. I was an actor - playing male for 27 years - but instead of setting myself free to be myself I found this observational paradigm forced me into no less of an act!
I found a system, which even though they were able to help me get a name change made sure to do it just two months late for me to start in an all-girls class with a male name and start second round of practical nurse training with the same name. I'd pretty much say that their lack of supporting my early stages of transition was responsible for a lot of the outright discrimination I faced during my first year. Imagine having to live full time for a year before even being allowed a name change?

Comparing what I've experienced since I started HRT regarding personal development and consolidation in my transition at least the first year at the clinic has been directly counterproductive to the liberation I'm seeking!
When I look back I honestly think it was stupid of me to wait those 23 months instead of getting a gyneocologist referal from the beginning and start right away.

JustAnotherDreamer in your shoes - knowing what I do now - I'd get back to the doctor and tell him that you are happy that he is pushing you forward at the clinic, but that you don't want to risk any irreversible masculinization of your body such as developing facial hair or breaking the voice, because that would make your later life more difficult. Tell him that you are intent on continuing at least spironolactone, but would appreciate having them monitor your blood levels.



Tippe

I'm inclined to agree with Seven and miss Ashley Shock horror :o , I fundamentally disagree with the forums policy on self medicating.
I feel it is akin to the naivety of abstinence only programs.

Even if I disagree with it I understand why you all do it and I can't blame someone for covering there ass legally and not wanting to be involved. But that's not a position I can live with.

Yeah it's obvious that these things we take are markedly more dangerous than paracetamols, But if you know damn well but if you take the time to understand how your body works and know howto monitor and potentially counteract or correct for those adverse reactions when they appear and you know why they appeared. Then your probably in just as good a position as your GP or an endo.

Not only that I've felt it first hand GP's can be trans-phobic ->-bleeped-<-s. The idea that they are such perfectionists and will make you safe is laughable.
If you put this information into actual practical knowledge for someone to consume instead of throwing up unrealistic misinformation about how you will probably die if you take that stuff without a doctor watching.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9c/Rational_scale_to_assess_the_harm_of_drugs_%28mean_physical_harm_and_mean_dependence%29.svg (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9c/Rational_scale_to_assess_the_harm_of_drugs_%28mean_physical_harm_and_mean_dependence%29.svg)
Steroids on this chart could be seen as a = FTM self medding T
E is less damaging than T the reactions it causes are not as serious (ie in T there are undetectable changes to the heart, Aswell as cirrhosis risk, and blood clot risk) while E just has the blood risk, (The liver is a problem only if you adopt certain dangerous kinds of T-blocker)

Thus if E were on this Chart of illegal drugs it would come just under Alkyl nitrites on the same dependence level as Steroids grid 1,1 maybe low 1,2 yet you'd think it was up there with cocaine given how some of you talk about it. Compared to tobacco and alcohol?

According to that chart, its less harmful then tobacco.  I respect the forum's position on not discussing self-medicating, but most people self medicating, in my experience, tend to be younger.  In my own experience, my parents health insurance paid for one after another therapist to "fix" me (I've counted no less then 4 times between 13 and 18 that I came out to my parents).  There's absolutely no way I could have used their insurance benefits to do things my way (the right way?).  Being a poor college student and having to pay everything out of pocket, what other choice could I have made?

The fact is we're not making transition any more affordable, just forcing people to mature as the wrong gender longer until they can afford to work within the system.  People self medicate becuase they don't have any other choice.  There's less gatekeeping going on now, but it is still a stong part of the community.

Actually it's about AS harmful as tobacco it's just considerably less addictive.

I tend to think the only reason transsexual threatment requires a psychiatric diagnosis is because transition itself is not seen as a normal thing to do in society. If transition was seen as a perfectly sane choice one could make just as well as for example the choice of educational path one takes or the life style one leads then it wouldn't matter why the transsexuals made that choice.

As a health care professional I obviously cannot advice people to self-medicate, however I do find it my duty to provide reliable information regarding the available threatments and their risks so that people may be able to make informed decissions and so that those who are not able to get threatment any other way are able to do it the safest way possible.

As for arguments to present to the doctor, here is a recent meta-analysis including 28 studies

Murad MH, Elamin MB, Garcia MZ,  Mullan RJ, Murad A, Erwin PJ, Montori VM. Hormonal Therapy and Sex Reassignment: A Systematic Review and Meta-analysis of Quality of Life and Psychosocial Outcomes. Clinical Endocrinology, 2010;72(2):214-231. URL: http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/716446 (http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/716446)

It states among others:

"Psychiatric Comorbidities

Pooling across studies shows that after sex reassignment, 78% of individuals with GID reported significant improvement in psychiatric symptoms (95% CI = 56–94%; 7 studies; I 2 = 86%). This proportion in the MF subgroup is 70% (33–96%) and in the FM subgroup is 84% (73–92%).
(...)
Quality of Life

Pooling across studies shows that after sex reassignment, 80% of individuals with GID reported significant improvement in quality of life (95% CI = 0·72–0·88; 16 studies; I 2 = 78%). This proportion in the MF subgroup is 84% (68–95%) and in the FM subgroup is 78% (67–87%)."


Now if the doctor tells you he don't know enough about how to monitor you an  overview can be found in page 17 of this excellent guide

Endocrine Therapy for Transgender Adults in British Columbia: Suggested Guidelines
http://transhealth.vch.ca/resources/library/tcpdocs/guidelines-endocrine.pdf (http://transhealth.vch.ca/resources/library/tcpdocs/guidelines-endocrine.pdf)



Tippe

That PDF guide looks excellent. Thank you. Bookmarked

Anabolic Steroids are not the same thing as internally produced testosterone.
Not even to you girls.

And no matter how closely you keep tabs on your own body, you aren't in the same position as a doctor looking at a blood-test giving him the clear view of exactly how much Estrogen and Testosterone are running through your veins.
You are in a completely different position, one that gives you a chance to spot changes in your being quite easily, but one that is biased, too close to be objective.
You can't change the numbers from your bloodtest by thinking about them, but you can change how you see the changes you feel by thinking about them.

It's easy to convince yourself you're not doing harm when you're actually doing something you really want to do.
Smokers do it every single day. ("I don't have cancer! My grandfather smoked every day and he lived to be 90!"... cough cough spit)
They do it out of a strong addictive "need" to keep smoking.

We "need" our hormones. We do. I understand that.
That's one of the big reasons why I understand the move to self medicate. I even considered it at one point, specifically, the moment after I was told I'd have to do 1 full year of hrt before T.

I do not agree with taking away the OP's hormones cold turkey as such. I think it's a poorly thought out move. That the desperation for hrt is clear and that the doctor is doing her a disservice by just saying "no".
I sincerely believe that this should set off an alarm in the system, since if she's done it once, she's likely to do it again, and that the safest thing to do is to get her into a "monitored" hrt program.

But that desperation is also a clear sign that she can not monitor her own status and wellbeing from an objective standpoint.
I honestly doubt any of us can.

Our lives are so heavily, emotionally invested in our transition and every little feeling of forward progress in that aspect is like a great battle won.
So if we were to begin to feel slight adverse effects, we might ignore them, thinking "it's not bad enough to be causing harm" or something to that effect. If we were to begin to feel more serious adverse effects, we might find ourselves thinking "I'll see if it clears up" rather than to stop taking our precious hormones.
We "need" them.

We can not possibly look at what we need, with such emotion, and hope to overcome that need for sake of objectively monitoring our own health.

That's the biggest reason it's dangerous to DIY.

Quote from: Miniar on November 07, 2010, 10:54:17 AMIt's easy to convince yourself you're not doing harm when you're actually doing something you really want to do.
Smokers do it every single day. ("I don't have cancer! My grandfather smoked every day and he lived to be 90!"... cough cough spit)
They do it out of a strong addictive "need" to keep smoking.

Miniar, given that some people smoke, some people self-medicate and some do both, would you consider it best for them to know of transdermals as an alternative to orals or would you consider it better for them to have no information about administration and dosages leaving them up to experiment?

QuoteWe "need" our hormones. We do. I understand that.
That's one of the big reasons why I understand the move to self medicate. I even considered it at one point, specifically, the moment after I was told I'd have to do 1 full year of hrt before T.

i've heard stories about the Danish GIC taking away peoples hormones to test them or to keep them in contact with the clinic even after diagnosis and referal has been made. I find it hard to believe such stories, but should this occur to me you can be certain I'll find my way around!

QuoteI sincerely believe that this should set off an alarm in the system, since if she's done it once, she's likely to do it again, and that the safest thing to do is to get her into a "monitored" hrt program.

Agree.

QuoteSo if we were to begin to feel slight adverse effects, we might ignore them, thinking "it's not bad enough to be causing harm" or something to that effect. If we were to begin to feel more serious adverse effects, we might find ourselves thinking "I'll see if it clears up" rather than to stop taking our precious hormones.
We "need" them.

It might also be that if HRT is part of a diagnostic program - or the program leading up to SRS - as is the case in many GIC's one would not tell the doctor about side-effects in order to not look like you dislike the hormones. In Danish law you specifically have to 'feel good' on your hormones so ofcourse I don't speak about minor side-effects such as flatulence and feeling tired at times. I'd think I'd be more open if I'd seen a private non-GIC doctor. And I'd feel more safe too, because my next appointment with this national hospital doctor is scheduled seven months away, which I find quite a long time without labs, but officially this is the only department allowed to provide HRT to transsexuals in Denmark meaning I'd better stick up with that until I get my surgery permit...
I guess I'll be ordering my own tests midway in this period to have a little more feeling of what's going on.

Then when I've acted long enough to get the permit I am free to switch to another doctor who will follow me more closely and I am free to start actually working on getting myself psychologically ready for the procedure, which shows how unfortunate this system is, because if I was acting male for 27 years before I started transition then of course I can act female for let's say three years until I get the permit. But if acting is required to get it then that means that openness is only allowed after I've got it. Now in that case what was the point of forcing me to act for those years instead of being open to discussion in a system respecting that the final decission is to be made by me anyway? The diagnostic period is really just a vaste of time then, which is why I also find my personal development started to occur only after I was allowed to have my hormones. I'm not fund of gatekeepers, because of the effect they have on our openness and honesty. Effects that are realized in lots of litterature. People need to have the freedom to choose themselves and the information permitting them to do so!



Tippe

 :police:  Enough

the rules here stated we do not allow talk about DIY HRT.

It is dangerous and can lead to death.  Yes people do it but that does not mean it is right.

Seven if you decide that you will argue with Minar, be advise Min is a moderator.

Re-reading  the rules is advised. :police:

Quote from: Tippe on November 07, 2010, 11:36:35 AM
Miniar, given that some people smoke, some people self-medicate and some do both, would you consider it best for them to know of transdermals as an alternative to orals or would you consider it better for them to have no information about administration and dosages leaving them up to experiment?

I feel that if a person feels compelled to forge their own path, they should do so with every scrap of information they could possibly get their hands on.

Preferably from a medical standard source.

Quote from: Seven on November 07, 2010, 06:34:39 PM
Miniar: your arrogance is excessive. Who are you to tell anyone that an emotionally charged decision that puts one's life at risk is to be ignored? Regardless of how one comes to a decision, it is always his/her decision and his/her right to act upon it. That includes when the decision can be outright harmful - as in the case of smoking.

Regardless of how "benevolent" you think your beliefs are, when they start impeding the rights of others to do whatever they please with their bodies and lives, you're no better than any tyrant. Degree is irrelevant, as are intentions.

You might want to re-read the post.

I am not suggesting the decision be ignored. I even specifically spoke against denying her the continuing of the decision and suggested that the a more appropriate decision from the doc would have been to get her into a monitored program rather than take them away.

Nor are my beliefs in any way impeding anyone's decisions.
I am in no position to impede anyone's decisions, all I can do is explain how I see things and try and offer advice.

In case you missed my beliefs, the simplest and shortest version would be "hormone replacement therapy should preferably be done with a doctor that can accurately monitor your hormone levels for the sake of avoiding unnecessary problems"
In no way does that mean that a person should be forced to stop once they've started themselves, nor that they should be forced to wait any longer than appropriate for the individual situation.

I do not appreciate being called arrogant and a tyrant for something I have not said at all.
I am a very literal person. When I write my posts, I write what I mean as accurately as possible without adding or subtracting anything. I admit I'm dead tired today and so an error or two in the post is possible, if not likely, but that doesn't mean I'm saying something so completely different than what I have written.

Disagree with me all you want, but then disagree with what I've actually said.
Dislike me all that you want, but do it for something I've actually said and done.
Either way, name-calling's still against the site-rules.

Quote from: Janet Lynn on November 07, 2010, 06:41:41 PM
:police:  Enough

the rules here stated we do not allow talk about DIY HRT.

Are you actually serious? I mean I understand you not permitting dosages or the proliforation of information that could be used to facilitate self-medication but not even permitting any discussion on the topic.

Pathetic absolutely Pathetic.
I however I should point out I disagree with Seven using personal emotive attacks against Minar but I still think that sevan has a point about the indivdual having final say in control over there bodily domain.

I thought this was a support site for all all our TS siblings not just those who's methods of transition you personally agree with.

Quote from: pebbles on November 08, 2010, 06:19:25 AM
Are you actually serious? I mean I understand you not permitting dosages or the proliforation of information that could be used to facilitate self-medication but not even permitting any discussion on the topic.

Pathetic absolutely Pathetic.
I however I should point out I disagree with Seven using personal emotive attacks against Minar but I still think that sevan has a point about the indivdual having final say in control over there bodily domain.

I thought this was a support site for all all our TS siblings not just those who's methods of transition you personally agree with.

I understand why many do it, but it can be dangerous.

Quote from: Miniar on November 07, 2010, 07:04:47 PM
I feel that if a person feels compelled to forge their own path, they should do so with every scrap of information they could possibly get their hands on.

Preferably from a medical standard source.

Exactly my point. I think a moderated space specifically to share high quality, well-referenced guidelines such as the ones from British Columbia would be great. A new one should have recently been developed in Amsterdam, but I haven't got my hand on it yet.
An abbundance of rubbish is floating around in the net, therefore those of us in access of reliable sources should take it upon ourselves to share them.

QuoteI am not suggesting the decision be ignored. I even specifically spoke against denying her the continuing of the decision and suggested that the a more appropriate decision from the doc would have been to get her into a monitored program rather than take them away.

Miniar, I'm sorry about the rant you suffered. To me you came across as a person honestly worried, in the best intent, of those not having proper blood monitoring. From professional experience I don't think your approach was the right to make people rethink their choices - for instance curiously the most efficient way to make patients cut down on pain medication abuse has proven to be to give themselves more autonomy and empowerment rather than to control it by staff - but you are entitled to your opinion and I think you presented it calmly and maturely.



Tippe

Quote from: JustAnotherDreamer on November 03, 2010, 11:19:25 PM
Thanks for all your replies! :)
My appointment went okay...well, apart from the fact i fainted and had a little "fit" whilst the nurse was taking my blood.. :o
Sooo yeah, The Doctor is getting my gender clinic appointment moved forward, Which is pretty cool ^-^
Maybe i won't be waiting forever?! ....

Dont expect to get your appointment moved. You maybe lucky and get a cancellation but they are seriously busy at charring cross

Quote from: Janet Lynn on November 08, 2010, 09:42:52 AM
I understand why many do it, but it can be dangerous.

Of course it can be, So we have to provide accurate and non-misleading information about those hazards and allow an individuals at the end of the day to make an informed choice and respect that they made that choice with all the facts for themselves regardless of whether we would have picked that path or not.

QuoteJanet: am I to understand the implication to be that certain people are on a pedestal so high their opinions are considered inviolable?

When an administrator of a forum is stating the rules of the forum, then no it's not an opinion, but yes it shall be inviolable.

I understand the opinion that since people are going to self med anyway, then let's provide the information for them to do it more safely. However, since most posters are not actual experts, anything they state are at best hearsay. Medical treatment based on hearsay are just dangerous since an user of such information have no way of judging whether the information they read is any good or not. As such, as a general rule, it is only responsible to actively discourage self medication while not condemning people who do due to their personal choice and circumstances.

Quote from: Seven on November 08, 2010, 02:19:45 PMMiniar: my reference was to your statement, as an absolute that DIYing individuals should be put into monitored regimens with no suggestion that some people (myself included) might want to opt out. Then there's the implication that everyone who self-medicates is motivated by what you describe as "need" in the same terms as physically addictive drugs. If those were oversights and not deliberate arrogant and tyranniacal statements, fine.

I did not mean to imply that we are addicted to our hormones, nor did I state that everyone who self-medicates are addicted.

I stated that "we" (as in all of us who transition) need our hormones. The story's repeated often enough so that I feel I am able to make that statement. We think better, feel better, look more like ourselves, etc, etc, etc, etc, on them. We require our hormones, all of us, myself included, hence the use of the world "we".

And I explained quite calmly and carefully why regular blood-tests are important, which is why I feel that the only way we can be sure that we're not doing any harm is to have the actual numbers. The only way to get the actual numbers is via a doctor.
This is what I mean by monitored.

Quote from: Keroppi on November 08, 2010, 04:13:41 PMI understand the opinion that since people are going to self med anyway, then let's provide the information for them to do it more safely. However, since most posters are not actual experts, anything they state are at best hearsay.

No, actually some of us do provide well-referenced documents. You don't have to be an expert yourself to be able to share expert references.

Quote from: pebbles on November 08, 2010, 12:40:57 PM
Of course it can be, So we have to provide accurate and non-misleading information about those hazards and allow an individuals at the end of the day to make an informed choice and respect that they made that choice with all the facts for themselves regardless of whether we would have picked that path or not.

Yup, gatekeeping is entirely bad because of how it affects our honesty and personal development. We certainly shouldn't be the ones acting as gatekeepers in front of fellow transsexuals. For a few references on how this affects people here are some quotes from a paper I'm preparing for the Danish National Board of Health...

From Standards of Care for Gender Identity Disorders:
"Belief in the true transsexual concept for males dissipated when it was realized that such patients were rarely encountered, and thatsome of the original true transsexuals had falsified their histories to make their stories match the earliest theories about the disorder." (5, s. 3).

further

"Ideally, psychotherapy is a collaborative effort. The therapist must be certain that the patient understands the concepts of eligibility and readiness, because the therapist and patient must cooperate in defining the patient's problems, and in assessing progress in dealing with them. Collaboration can prevent a stalemate between a therapist who seems needlessly withholding of a recommendation, and a patient who seems too profoundly distrusting to freely share thoughts, feelings, events, and relationships." (5, s. 12).

From Counselling and Mental Health Care for Transgender Adults and Loved Ones:
"Clinicians conducting assessment prior to initiation of hormones or surgery are in a "gatekeeper" role that involves a power dynamic which can significantly affect therapeutic rapport (Rachlin, 2002). The client often perceives the evaluation not as a desired tool to help them therapeutically determine a plan of action, but rather as a hoop that must be jumped through to reach desired goals, a frightening loss of physical and psychological autonomy, or a type of institutionalized transphobic discrimination – as psychological evaluation is not required for non-transgender individuals requesting hormones, breast augmentation, or hysterectomy (Brown & Rounsley, 1996). In BC, surgery assessors are appointed by the BC Medical Services Plan, further reducing clients' sense of choice about the assessment process.
(...)
Normalizing emotional reactions clients commonly have (e.g., anger, anxiety, fear) and also the common behaviours (e.g., trying to tell the assessor what the client thinks they want to hear, being belligerent/uncooperative, being manipulative) helps frame this as a systems issue rather than a personal power struggle. Discussion about what the assessment process involves (discussed in the next section) is imperative as client anxiety or anger is often heightened by inaccurate understanding of the process." (7, s. 19).

Madeline H. Wyndzen, Ph. D. writes:
"At one time you couldn't transition if you weren't completely 'homosexual' because *obviously* a 'real' female is completely heterosexual. As transsexuals discovered this bias, they lied in order to get surgery. Fortunately today most gender clinics accept sexual orientation and gender identity are distinct." (32).

Yolanda LS Smith, Ph. D. states:
"In most SR applicants the motivation for engaging in psychotherapy is very low. For some because they expect that all their problems will disappear after obtaining SR. Others do not confide in the therapist because they, sometimes correctly, expect to be denied SR, when they are open about their problems."
[Smith, YLS. Sex Reassignment: Predictors and Outcomes of Treatment for Transsexuals. Universiteit Utrecht, 2002. s. 23. URL: : http://igitur-archive.library.uu.nl/dissertations/2002-0808-103443/inhoud.htm (http://igitur-archive.library.uu.nl/dissertations/2002-0808-103443/inhoud.htm)]

Anne Lawrence, Ph. D. declares:
"postoperatively collected data may be more accurate in some ways than data collected preoperatively, because it is less likely to be distorted by selective reporting or deliberate dissimulation, which transsexuals sometimes believe are required in order to obtain surgery (Lawrence, 1997; Walworth, 1997)" [Lawrence, AA. Factors associated with satisfaction or regret following male-to-female sex reassignment surgery. Archives of Sexual Behavior, Vol 32, 2003. pp. 299–315.] (s. 312).

Johnsson and Wasserzug writes in a study:
"Cohen-Kettenis and Pfafflin noted that such individuals ''seek contact with medical professionals to have surgical or chemical castration only.'' What Cohen-Kettenis and Pfafflin did not emphasize was the difficulty that these men face given the available diagnoses in the DSM-IV. Many fit the GID-Not Otherwise Specified (GID-NOS) diagnosis in the DSM. However, it is our experience that an ''NOS'' GID is sufficiently vague that it is more of an obstacle than an aid in obtaining a referral for an orchiectomy in most parts of the Western world. In many places, it will not get them access to hormones either. This leaves the individuals two options: they can lie about the nature of their GID and claim that they are male-to-female (MtF) transsexuals in order to obtain hormones or an orchiectomy, or they can go outside of the established medical system for treatment." (30).

Jay Prosser writes in an antology of transsexuals:
"In effect, to be transsexual, the subject must be a skilled narrator of his or her own life. Tell the story persuasively, and you're likely to get your hormones and surgery" [Prosser, Jay. Scond Skins: The Body Narratives of Transsexuality, 1998.].

Judith Butler writes:
"one has to be gauged against measures of normalcy; and one has to pass the test. (...) The price of using the diagnosis to get what one wants is that one cannot use the language to say what one really thinks is true. One pays for one's freedom" [Butler, J. Undoing Gender, Routledge, New York and London, 2004. s. 91].

From a wikipedia-article:
"Legal needs such as a change of sex on legal documents, and medical needs, such as sex reassignment surgery, are usually impossible to obtain without a doctor and/or therapist's approval. Due to this, many transsexual people feel coerced into affirming pre-ordained symptoms of self-loathing, impotence, and sexual-preference, in order to overcome simple legal and medical hurdles. (Brown 107) Transsexual people who do not submit to this medical hierarchy typically face the option of remaining invisible, with limited legal options and, possibly, with identification documents incongruent with gender presentation."
[Sex reassignment therapy I: Wikipedia, 27. maj 2010. URL: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_reassignment_therapy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_reassignment_therapy)]

Marissa Dainton was quoted in The Guardian:
"Dainton says patients encourage each other purposely to avoid discussing issues that might hold up their treatment. "Most people who go to psychiatrists with a view to changing gender have actually researched and know a lot of the things they should say - and some of the things they should stay clear of."
[Batty D. Mistaken identity. The Guardian, Saturday 31 July 2004. URL: http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2004/jul/31/health.socialcare (http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2004/jul/31/health.socialcare)]



Tippe

Quote from: Janet Lynn on November 07, 2010, 06:41:41 PM
:police:  Enough

the rules here stated we do not allow talk about DIY HRT.

It is dangerous and can lead to death.  Yes people do it but that does not mean it is right.

Could that be altered to disallowing promoting DIY HRT but allowing discussion on a case by case basis? For example some DIYers may have experiences that potential DIYers ought to be aware of. All too often it is tempting to say "yes, those are the risks, but it won't happen to me" when potential DIYers read clinical papers, but having a first hand account from a real transperson can bring home that this is a very real risk.

Susan has made a decision that promoting Self Medication and the discussion of recommended doses would put this site in a position to face legal problems.

These are the rules of this Forum, if you can not accept that, you might be better served looking elsewhere.

I am not stupid, self medication goes on daily, or there would not be so many sites you can buy medications without a prescription.  The problem is you never know when your getting fake medication, out of date medication, etc. 

If you want to self medicate, your going to no matter what we say.  I just suggest you get blood tests to make sure your not harming yourself.

Sarah L.

Quote from: Rule 8 TOSThe discussion of hormone replacement therapy(HRT) and it's medications are permitted, with the following limitations:

A. Advocating for or against a specific medication or combinations of medications for personal gain is strictly prohibited.
B. Discussing the means to acquire HRT medications without a prescription, and self medication without a doctors care is prohibited.
C. Discussing dosages is strongly discouraged to prevent information obtained on this site from being used to self medicate.

We can not in good conscience condone the self administering of these medications. Not only may self medication be illegal, but HRT medications can cause serious health problems, and many have the potential for life-threatening side effects that can only be detected and prevented with proper medical supervision.

I placed the warning because I can see this becoming a flame war.

If you wish to discuss it, do it without attacks on another member.

RE teh rulez

Susan has to protect herself and the site from legal repercussions.  It might really be a choice between a forum that doesn't allow promoting illegal DIY HRT (especially to minors), and no forum at all. 

Meanwhile, I think there are also some rulez about protesting teh rulez.  I applaud the moderators generosity and forbearance in re tat.

Those of us who disagree have many many options for doing as we please (i.e., PM or email) without putting the site at risk.  It's time to act smart.

/lecture

This is my 666th post!  Wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!

Susan's forum, Susan's rules.  I totally respect that.

HOWEVER, there are a number of easily accesible websites, reputable even, that post hormone regimens enabling someone to DIY very easily.  There is no evidence of resulting legal troubles, and they've been active for a number of years.

That said, I think it's a weak excuse to hide behind "the law" as reasoning for not allowing any discussions of DIY.

Look guys don't argue!
I know hormones are extremely dangerous but it's my life so i will be making the decisions not my parents, doctor or anyone on this site.
Now with that being said i will continue self medicating, only this time i will be having regular blood tests and if my doctor doesn't like it then he will have to prescribe them!
Oh almost forgot, my doctor claimed that if i self medicate charring cross will take me of their books... is there any truth to this or is it just a stupid scare tactic?

My doctor described my self medicating as a complicating barrier to me getting care but I've been honest about my self-medicating to my GP and my psychiatrist who's assessed me. They've not stopped the process of referring me.

It would be medically very negligent for them to abandon you on that basis.

Quote from: pebbles on November 10, 2010, 06:13:07 PM

It would be medically very negligent for them to abandon you on that basis.

Like that could ever stop them if they chose to.

Quote from: JustAnotherDreamer on November 10, 2010, 05:03:12 PM
Oh almost forgot, my doctor claimed that if i self medicate charring cross will take me of their books... is there any truth to this or is it just a stupid scare tactic?

I have heard that about Charing Cross, but I don't know of any instances where it actually happened.

Quote from: JustAnotherDreamer on November 10, 2010, 05:03:12 PM
Oh almost forgot, my doctor claimed that if i self medicate charring cross will take me of their books... is there any truth to this or is it just a stupid scare tactic?

They say that in Denmark too, since they claim it 'interferes' with their diagnosis. Some people just tell them that they cannot foresee how it would hinder the psychologist sessions in any way. They continue taking the medication during their time at the clinic and noone has been kicked out for that reason as far as I know.



Tippe

tbh, it sounds like a scare tactic. If they were to "refuse treatment" because you self medicate, I'd see about lawyering up cause that sounds, like has been said, clearly negligent.

Quote from: Miniar on November 11, 2010, 06:55:48 AM
tbh, it sounds like a scare tactic. If they were to "refuse treatment" because you self medicate, I'd see about lawyering up cause that sounds, like has been said, clearly negligent.

Don't know the exact sitution in the US, but taking any legal action against a Dr here is almost impossible.

And even in the states where such things are possible, good lawyers are insanely expensive.

Only the emergency room can't refuse to treat a patient.  Everyone else is fair game.  There's no grounds for negligence if they refuse to accept you as a patient.