Susan's Place Transgender Resources

Hey guys,
I am just getting started with this all and am living as a girl.  One thing I have noticed that really bothers me is when guys go out of their way to be overly chivalrous.  I am in the habit of holding doors for other people, etc, and there have been several cases where I have been with a guy who gets upset about me doing these sorts of things.  It seems to me that, in this day and age, this is more of common courtesy than chivalry and should not be associated with gender.  A few months ago I went on a trip with a few friends.  One of the guys drove me nuts the whole time because he would actually not allow any of the girls (and me) to carry luggage, buy drinks, open doors, etc. often causing a hassle and holding us up in the process.  However, I had no idea how to bring it up with him without hurting his feelings and just felt awkward all week.  Does anyone have experience with dealing things like this?  He is one of the nicest guys in the universe, and I do not want to make him feel bad.

I'm totally sick of guys forcing me to enter and leave the elvator first and go through doors.  They effing herd us like effing cattle.  There's nothing that makes a woman feel more like an eff are double eek freek than when she's the only woman on the elevator aand the elevator stops and the nine men in front of her stop and turn and stare at her, and force her to squeeze through them to exit first.  Not long ago, one guy was standing waiting for the elevator with an arm in a cast, and when the elvator opened, another guy made a big production of standing aside and ushering us in with his arms and crying "Women and wounded first!"  Another woman looked at me and said loudly, "What does that say about us?" 

You're not alone in these feelings.  It's ridiculous and insulting, and I'm about ready to start telling guys to go eff their mothers when they pull this merde. 

I do that for women I care about (friends, family, etc.) or if I'm trying to get on her good side because I'm attracted to her, but I do it subconsciously, without thinking. I feel proper carrying things for my female friends and family members and holding doors open for them and such. I don't know why this is though.

I don't really hold anybody up when I do those things, you know, I won't force them to let me do those things for them. However, if they're having difficulty holding something, I'll offer to hold it for them.

I just kind of do it out of courtesy.

Personally, if it bothers you that he does that, tell him that you don't need any help, but thank him anyway or something. That's if you don't want to hurt his feelings. If you don't care either way, tell him to back off.

I hold doors open because it's common courtesy.  Did it before transition and do it afterwards.  I do let my daughter go first, and she doesn't like it.  But it feels rude to me to go through the door first.

Quote from: sneakersjay on November 01, 2010, 10:06:29 PM
I hold doors open because it's common courtesy.  Did it before transition and do it afterwards. 

I've noticed it being a lot worse since I moved to Texas.  Sometimes, it's only practical for me to open the door for a guy when it swings a certian way and he is going through the opposite direction as me, or when he enters a security code and then I open the door when it clicks instead of waiting for him to do it.  But guys actually refuse to walk through.  I tell people the extreme nature the way this custom is enforced in Texas is unusual, as I've lived all over the country, but they don't believe it.  It's like some sort of twilight zonish obsession they have here.

Glenda: So glad I don't live in Texas then.  I have run into this before, but it's definitely the exception rather than the rule.

Jay: Honestly, I would do the same if I were a father.  I think that putting our kids first is programed into us, and she'll just have to put up with it haha.

I do not want to seem like I do not appreciate guys (and girls) who do things like this when it is helpful.  I think that common courtesy should be a little more common.  The only times it bothers me is when guys will not let me return the favor or when, using glenda's example, there are 9 guys in front of you in an elevator, and they are all crowding around to let you out first. 

I love having doors opened for me!
I will open doors for other women and hold a door for a guy too though more often that not a guy will make a gesture to show he is going to open the door for me.
In the past when male I did notice that some women did actually refuse to walk through the door I was holding open and go through the other half of it or the adjacent door.   
I just put it down to some crazy brainwashing but then someone told me that lesbians will not go through the door a male is holding open so at the LGBT conferences and meetings I attend for work I watch the door business and sure enough some lesbians are very militant about not accepting the courtesy from a guy and will actually wait a few feet away until he gives up in bafflement and lets it shut in their faces.

There's definitely a difference between being an independent person and being rude.

I've never had much of an issue with people who are "chivalrous" to the point of being rude, but when I have I've told them their over-enthusiasm was uncomfortable and unwanted. It went well except the one time I was called a nazi lesbian bitch from hell.

Quote from: Lee on November 01, 2010, 08:17:36 PM
Hey guys,
I am just getting started with this all and am living as a girl.  One thing I have noticed that really bothers me is when guys go out of their way to be overly chivalrous.  I am in the habit of holding doors for other people, etc, and there have been several cases where I have been with a guy who gets upset about me doing these sorts of things.  It seems to me that, in this day and age, this is more of common courtesy than chivalry and should not be associated with gender.  A few months ago I went on a trip with a few friends.  One of the guys drove me nuts the whole time because he would actually not allow any of the girls (and me) to carry luggage, buy drinks, open doors, etc. often causing a hassle and holding us up in the process.  However, I had no idea how to bring it up with him without hurting his feelings and just felt awkward all week.  Does anyone have experience with dealing things like this?  He is one of the nicest guys in the universe, and I do not want to make him feel bad.

Well its how the guy is brought up.  He also probably is attracted to one of them and wants them to take notice, but i dont understand what the big deal is.  Someone is doing you a courtesy and your mad about it?  OMG he did a nice thing, that BASTARD!   In the past a woman might have not had a lot of rights, but men would fight and die over them, that is not the case now, i welcome someone holding my bags if they offer.  Many people assume that if you do this your showing weakness or some other crap, its just being nice, obviously the guy was brought up well, or a player lol.

Izumi, I don't want to seem like I am mad about him being nice.  I definitely appreciate him and others, both men and women, who do similar things.  The part that bothers me is that he (and several other people I have met) get upset if I try to do something similar or do not wait for him to pick up something/open the door/etc.  It seems to me that this should fall under "the person it's easiest for should do it" rather than being decided by gender differences.

Quote from: Lee on November 01, 2010, 08:17:36 PM
Hey guys,
I am just getting started with this all and am living as a girl.  One thing I have noticed that really bothers me is when guys go out of their way to be overly chivalrous. 

Ah welcome to womanhood, you can look at it as common courtesy or whatever, Im well use to it now, it is nice being treated like a lady, down the years all the things that women have fought against so call women's lib etc I actually treasure some of the old values, when gentlemen had respect for ladies.
There a garage forcourt in my town that sells gas, if a lady driver pulls up the guy will do the fill, but doesn't fill a guy's car, the guy does it himself, now people will say thats female privilege bla bla bla, well I think its nice and respectful, particularly if Im all dressed up I don't fancy smelling of gas particular if Im wearing my favorite perfume lol theres enough male privilege in the world, its nice sometimes to just enjoy female privilege, just to enjoy being a woman
p

Quote from: Izumi on November 02, 2010, 12:21:38 PM
Well its how the guy is brought up.  He also probably is attracted to one of them and wants them to take notice, but i dont understand what the big deal is.  Someone is doing you a courtesy and your mad about it?  OMG he did a nice thing, that BASTARD!   In the past a woman might have not had a lot of rights, but men would fight and die over them, that is not the case now, i welcome someone holding my bags if they offer.  Many people assume that if you do this your showing weakness or some other crap, its just being nice, obviously the guy was brought up well, or a player lol.

^ :)

As a supposed boy, my grandmother taught me to open doors for women, to walk on the curb side of women, to stand when a woman comes to the table, to let a woman precede me when being seated by a restaurant host but to lead the way when seating ourselves, etc.  It has taken a little to not automatically do these things anymore (or to switch sides when they are done).  But my grandmother was born in 1879.

Courtesy is always nice.  It is nice to be treated with courtesy and to treat others with it.  When it is overdone or insisted upon then it is no longer courtesy.  Can't we just be nice to each other without ideology rearing its head?

BTW, the rule I learned about elevators is that the person closest to the door leaves first just so that it isn't awkward.  When men wore hats they were supposed to remove them in the presence of a woman, except in an elevator where it would make it too crowded.

One problem with the USA is that we are a diverse culture and there are few universally agreed-upon rules.  Still, to be rude to someone who is just trying to be nice to you (perhaps in memory of their grandmother) is just rude.

- Kate

I like going out in girl mode because I like having my door opened for me.  I was raised that it was common courtesy for a man to open the door for a woman, and I was raised seeing my dad open the door for my mom and he'd open it for my sister and I, too.  I also like to open the door for others because I see it as a courtesy thing and it feels nice to be able to help someone out by opening the door for them or carrying their bags or something similar.

My best advice...

Sit back and enjoy. Really.

Yeah it can be weird, take some time getting used to, and as you mention at times can become annoying depending on the situation... but just sit back and enjoy the ride. I remember a few years ago when I went on a date with a guy for like the second time ever and the bill came. I automatically reached into my purse for money, and the guy was like no-way, I got it, even when I tried to leave the tip, he almost got insulted. This definitely stuck with me. A guy just bought me diner. Wow. But hoestly if that's the least issue you have to deal with in this whole process, consider yourself lucky.
;)

Heh, who could say no to a free dinner?  Just to clear things up a bit, I was born female and am living as such but trying to figure out where to start transitioning.  Though, I will miss having dinner/drinks/etc bought for me.   :laugh:

My personal opinion is a lot of these customs are local. I'm an Australian and I have no problems holding a door open for any Tom, Dick, Harry, or Jane or Mary to walk through. It's being polite.  It's just the oil of society (stolen quote, who will find it >:-)). What gives about people being polite and gender? I suffer no disrespect for anyone being polite. Would we rather have a society that was openly rude and obnoxious?

Oh we do.


Cindy

My automatic reaction is to let others through first, male or female. But now that I live as the woman I find guys insisting i go first. I don't mind, it is kind of nice. But it still takes some getting used to. Occasionally when I open a door for the woman in my office I give a little bow and a flowery wave of my hand like a lord to the ladies. They seem to get a kick out of it as much as I do, it is a kind of gender play.

The funniest thing I find related to this is when setting up for practices in my band. I'm a drummer so have a lot of gear to cart about, but as soon as I started wearing skirts my band mates now rush to help move my gear. I don't think they even realize they are doing it, it is like a programmed thing.  Sometimes all I need to carry is my handbag  ;D

My experience is that the guys who are the most chivalrous are als the most chauvanistic (AKA misogynistic). 

I am not able to bring myself to be rude, and that's how they control me.  I resent it.

Quote from: glendagladwitch on November 03, 2010, 06:58:53 PM
My experience is that the guys who are the most chivalrous are als the most chauvanistic (AKA misogynistic). 

I am not able to bring myself to be rude, and that's how they control me.  I resent it.

Ke ke ke ask a guy sleeping on the couch how much control he really has.  The only control a man has over a woman is the amount she lets him have.  They are trying to impress you showing you that they are better then the rest.  Its not such a bad thing.

Personally, I'm a fan of old-fashioned politeness.  Of course I'd rather be the guy holding the door for the girl than the other way around.  But if I look female and a guy holds a door for me, I give him a friendly smile of appreciation.  I like to thank people when they make an effort to be nice to me, regardless of my private opinion of whatever they're doing.  And I make a point of responding to chivalry the way I'd like people to respond to me when I get to live as a guy and be chivalrous to them.

I hear some women complaining that chivalry is dead, then find out other women complain that chivalry is sexist. Even though I didn't have the standard male upbringing, my parents still always told me to get the door, even if it meant going out of my way. I'd feel rude not doing it. I figure its best to open the door anyway.  Best case scenario, its appreciated. Worst case scenario, I piss someone off that I probably wouldn't get along with anyway. 

I don't think it should be called 'Chivalry' anymore, because 'Chivalry' was a code of conduct for knights who were noble-born. It DID include courting women, but there was a lot more to it.

It should be common courtesy for EVERYONE, regardless of how they identify or what's between their legs. Men don't feel like they should have to curry favor with someone by doing a bunch of silly things and spending money (IE free food/drinks to the person they're interested in). If you like someone, strike up a conversation with them.

Being polite is fine, and I wish everyone was. I hold doors for everyone but I don't expect anyone to do it for me. Personally I try to avoid situations where some guy will hold a door for me just because he was 'taught that way'. I wish people would stop teaching their children to be 'chivalrous gentlemen' and instead teach them the value of respect and kindness to EVERYONE they meet until an individual gives them a reason to not be (a rude person refusing simple kindness is the best example).

I often feel like people who get priority to go first through doorways are generally older than me, have their hands full with groceries/etc, have young children that they need to hold, hold hands with or push through in a stroller etc, or just someone who seems to be going the same way as me.

Women are right to feel like it's sexist when they see a guy who ONLY opens the door for women, but not for the guy behind the woman, etc. That IS wrong and should be stopped.

But then again I've never cared at all for a lot of social practices. I don't want to be pandered to and patronized because of my genitals, I just want to be treated like a human being. I feel like everyone else should want the same things, but I'm not going to make a public outcry because someone likes the whole 'Gentlemen and Ladies' social play; I just don't agree with it at all.

Personally I see the OPs point...courtesy is always nice, people are just far too rude these days, but treating me all the time like I can't cope with complex tasks such as opening a door, paying for my own food and drinks and carrying any object heavier than a hand bag would fill me with rage.

Lee, if you're FtM and currently presenting as female this is the problem. Men are obviously reading you as female and are behaving politely towards you. You, naturally, identify as male so you resent having this done to you, you're one of the boys. When you live life full time as male, you may well find yourself also filling the chivalrous role