Susan's Place Transgender Resources

Very interesting story.

http://www.outsports.com/os/index.php/component/content/article/24-people/338-transgender-man-to-play-for-womens-basketball-team (http://www.outsports.com/os/index.php/component/content/article/24-people/338-transgender-man-to-play-for-womens-basketball-team)

It's not as bad as you might think he's not taking T therefore dosen't have an unfair advantage over other females as he mentioned himself in the story if he did he'd have to play on the guys team.

I'm actually happy about this.Cases like this will make us more known to NCAA and force them to change some of their rules.Here is another link.The comments are great.

http://jezebel.com/5679505/the-ncaas-first-openly-trans-basketball-player (http://jezebel.com/5679505/the-ncaas-first-openly-trans-basketball-player)

I am so going to this event! 

What's the difference?  If he is identifying as a man, then why should he be allowed to play on the women's team?  If I identify as a woman, even though I used to be a man, are you saying that I have to play on the men's team because a woman, who is now a man, is playing on the women's team?  What does hormones have anything to do with it?  His identity is MALE.  Allowing this negates any work for transwomen to be accepted onto women's teams/sports.  Allowing this only reinforces their notion that you must play on the team/sport for your birth gender despite whatever gender you now identify as.

If you support him playing on the women's team because of no apparent "unfair advantage", then you also support discrimination against transwomen for the same reason.

Quote from: girl_ashley on November 02, 2010, 02:50:07 PM
What's the difference?  If he is identifying as a man, then why should he play on the men's team?  If I identify as a woman, even though I used to be a man, are you saying that I have to play on the men's team because a woman, who is now a man, is playing on the women's team?  What does hormones have anything to do with it?  His identity is MALE.  Allowing this negates any work for teanswomen to be accepted onto women's teams/sports.  Allowing this only reinforces their notion that you must play on the team/sport for your birth gender despite whatever gender you now identify as.

The prevailing notion in sports is it's not birth gender, but biological alignment which dictates which gendered league an athlete plays in.  The concept is that of a leveled playing field -- if a transwoman is not undergoing HRT she would have a distinct advantage in a female league due to her testosterone.  Similarly, this transman , without the benefit of "T" is competing against athletes with the same capability.  In most cases, a transsexual on HRT, competes in leagues of their target gender.

Quote from: girl_ashley on November 02, 2010, 02:50:07 PM
What's the difference?  If he is identifying as a man, then why should he be allowed to play on the women's team?  If I identify as a woman, even though I used to be a man, are you saying that I have to play on the men's team because a woman, who is now a man, is playing on the women's team?  What does hormones have anything to do with it?  His identity is MALE.  Allowing this negates any work for transwomen to be accepted onto women's teams/sports.  Allowing this only reinforces their notion that you must play on the team/sport for your birth gender despite whatever gender you now identify as.

If you support him playing on the women's team because of no apparent "unfair advantage", then you also support discrimination against transwomen for the same reason.

He identify as a man, but he hasn't actually physically transition to be one in terms of HRT & documents. T unquestionably provides an advantages which is why the prevailing wisdom is that for FTM, once you go on T you're competing as male; and for MTF, once you go on E and a period of time has passed to allow for effect of T to go away and E to take effect.

So what you are saying is that it's not the chosen gender identity that makes a person eligible for the men's or women's teams, but instead it's their hormones?

So suppose I am a teenage transgirl, who dresses and acts like a female in all aspects of my life, but cannot get access to hormone therapy because I am underage, but have been accepted by all my peers as female.  Then by your logic I must still play on the boy's teams/sports in school because I have not started hormones despite the fact that I am living fulltime as female and therefore completely invalidating my chosen identity?

Quote from: pheonix on November 02, 2010, 02:59:43 PM
The prevailing notion in sports is it's not birth gender, but biological alignment which dictates which gendered league an athlete plays in.  The concept is that of a leveled playing field -- if a transwoman is not undergoing HRT she would have a distinct advantage in a female league due to her testosterone.  Similarly, this transman , without the benefit of "T" is competing against athletes with the same capability.  In most cases, a transsexual on HRT, competes in leagues of their target gender.

Exactly. The division between men's and women's sports leagues is not based on gender or gender identity - it's based on physiological differences between men and women. Hormones actually do affect athletic ability; the average testosterone-fueled body is several standard deviations above the norm for estrogen-fueled bodies in most measures of physical strength, speed, and endurance. Identifying as female (or male) doesn't change this biological reality.

Pre-T trans men can't just go play on men's teams any more than we can go sing in men's choirs. Some of us would rather not play sports or sing if the only way we could do either would be to do them with women - but for others, athletics or music is one of the most important things in their lives. This guy seems to be among the second group.

Quote from: girl_ashley on November 02, 2010, 03:13:08 PM
So what you are saying is that it's not the chosen gender identity that makes a person eligible for the men's or women's teams, but instead it's their hormones?

So suppose I am a teenage transgirl, who dresses and acts like a female in all aspects of my life, but cannot get access to hormone therapy because I am underage, but have been accepted by all my peers as female.  Then by your logic I must still play on the boy's teams/sports in school because I have not started hormones despite the fact that I am living fulltime as female and therefore completely invalidating my chosen identity?

In my opinion, yes, unless you're on puberty blockers. Trans girls who aren't on puberty blockers have a major unfair physical advantage over other girls, with an effect size similar to what cis girls would get if they were using steroids (which are also banned).

(Because there's no physical advantage in the other direction, trans boys should be able to play on boys' teams...if we can make the team. The harsh physiological reality is that in many cases, we can't.)

Then instead of calling them Mens and Women's teams, we should say Estrogen and Testosterone.

I hear what you are saying and I also understand that most on this thread are trans-male and that you guys are more aware of the "benefits" and "unfair advantage" of testosterone than us transfemales.  But the fact of the matter is that your argument still invalidates my claim and my identity as a trans-female.  It is still discrimination.

There's no perfect answer. But the thing is that women's sports exist for a reason: without sex-segregated sports leagues, almost no women would ever have the opportunity to compete at a high level in almost any sport. Not because of their gender identity or expression, but because of their physical differences. Coed contact sports can even be unsafe for women. So the line is drawn very conservatively in order to maintain a reasonably fair, reasonably safe environment where women can compete.

Is it discrimination? I guess it is. But then, sports teams discriminate based on physical characteristics all the time. People with physical or severe mental disabilities are often denied the opportunity to compete for their schools' teams, and may have to play in specialized leagues. Trans boys are legally allowed to play for boys' teams, but that doesn't mean we can meet the physical standards to do so (and unlike for trans girls, puberty blockers don't fix that problem for us). Intersex people may have to compete in male divisions.

Eligibility rules for sports are messy. But having pubescent trans girls on a girls' team is unfair to all of the girls she plays with or against; it's discriminatory against them, and it undermines the whole point of women's sports. They don't exist because of gender or identity. They exist because of differences in physical sex.

Quote from: girl_ashley on November 02, 2010, 03:23:38 PM
I hear what you are saying and I also understand that most on this thread are trans-male and that you guys are more aware of the "benefits" and "unfair advantage" of testosterone than us transfemales.  But the fact of the matter is that your argument still nvalidates my claim and my identity as a trans-female.  It is still discrimination.

See, that's not discrimination.  Discrimination would be "you can't play because you are trans."  You aren't denied the ability to be openly trans and compete, you're just denied entry onto the team of your non-hormonal gender.  Case law regarding sports and gender is very well established and is grounded in the physical biological differences of gender.  In these instances separate but equal is allowable.  Even in a trans-friendly jurisdiction, a lawsuit wouldn't succeed on the merits of the case.  Even more so, many sports governing bodies have developed very trans friendly policies which mimic how this transman's case has been handled.   In terms of invalidating identity, his identity has not been compromised -- even within the team, league and article his identity of male is affirmed.

Just to drive home the level of physical difference: The U.S. Women's Olympic hockey team was beaten by high school boys in approx. 2006. Seriously. High school boys, still going through puberty, beat one of the top two women's teams in the world. The physical differences really are that extreme and they do show up that early.

A reasonably athletic trans girl without puberty blockers or hormones would easily outstrip all of her teammates, all of her competitors...in an individual sport like track and field or swimming, she could quite easily sweep medals in every event, even against cis girls who are naturally more athletically talented and training harder. That's simply unfair.

How do you explain then boys joining girls' field hockey?  If your argument that testosterone fueled bodies cannot play in girls' sports, then why are they allowed to play field hockey? 

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Do_boys_play_field_hockey_in_high_school (http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Do_boys_play_field_hockey_in_high_school)

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/10262/1088700-364.stm (http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/10262/1088700-364.stm)

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/preps/2010-09-23-boys-field-hockey_N.htm (http://www.usatoday.com/sports/preps/2010-09-23-boys-field-hockey_N.htm)

According to your definition, this should be disallowed.

Because there's no boys' field hockey. They can't be excluded from playing a sport based on their gender, so they're allowed to play on the girls' team under the same case law that gave girls the right to play hockey and football on boys' teams. If you read the article, not everybody's exactly happy with the situation.

Quote"They're faster and more powerful, and that definitely gives them a leg up," Dorsch said. "There were girls on the bench who saw very little time on the field. Having such a significant number (five) of boys on the field at one time — boys that are more powerful and have more force behind their actions because of their increased body weight — is not a safe situation for girls that are new to the sport and weigh 50-80 pounds less than them."

And the competitive advantage is recognized and abused:

QuoteElk Lake coach Heidi English started the season with nine boys on her roster, though one moved away. She starts seven boys, and most of them have played since they were freshmen. The team is 2-2 in one of the toughest regions in the state.

"We encouraged boys to join to become competitive," English said. "It's become an issue because we've started to win.

Quote from: kyril on November 02, 2010, 04:34:34 PM
Because there's no boys' field hockey. They can't be excluded from playing a sport based on their gender, so they're allowed to play on the girls' team under the same case law that gave girls the right to play hockey and football on boys' teams. If you read the article, not everybody's exactly happy with the situation.And the competitive advantage is recognized and abused:

Except you fail to realize that the argument here is solely based on testosterone fueled bodies versus non-testosterone.  By your previous arguments, these boys should not be partaking in girl's field hockey.

They shouldn't. But they legally can't be prevented from doing so as long as there is no boys' team. Which is very unfortunate for the girls - but then, not being able to play at all would be very unfortunate for the boys.

Quote from: girl_ashley on November 02, 2010, 03:13:08 PM
So what you are saying is that it's not the chosen gender identity that makes a person eligible for the men's or women's teams, but instead it's their hormones?

So suppose I am a teenage transgirl, who dresses and acts like a female in all aspects of my life, but cannot get access to hormone therapy because I am underage, but have been accepted by all my peers as female.  Then by your logic I must still play on the boy's teams/sports in school because I have not started hormones despite the fact that I am living fulltime as female and therefore completely invalidating my chosen identity?

Very ignorant posts Ashley. Absolutely yes your gender identity should not be considered in regards to sports, but only your hormone levels. It would be ridiculous otherwise. An NBA player could dress as a woman, say they are MtF, and not take hormones and play in (and most likely dominate) the WNBA. Considering anything else besides things from a biological standpoint with regards to sports is just plain stupid. Field hockey is unfortunate in that there is no boy's team, but that is the exception and not the rule. Girls are allowed to play on typically boys only teams like football, and in those instances there would be nothing wrong with them taking testosterone. Testosterone gives an obvious competitive edge so I really see little difference in an MtF not on hormones playing on a girl's team and a genetic girl taking steroids for a similar competitive edge.

Hormones or not, this still does nothing to help "legitimate" transwomen from being able to join womens teams/sports, the teams and sports of their hormonal gender.  Perception is huge and if transmen are allowed to play on women's teams (again, hormones or not) it will do nothing for, or even will set back, the rights of transwomen for playing on the proper teams.

Take for example the story of Michelle Dumaresq.  Or perhaps more recently, the story of Lana Lawless who is currently suing the LPGA.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michelle_Dumaresq (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michelle_Dumaresq)

http://www.bilerico.com/2010/10/trans_woman_sues_lpga.php (http://www.bilerico.com/2010/10/trans_woman_sues_lpga.php)

People are indeed ignorant and perception reigns.  Let's talk about the Pregnant Man for a moment.  I have a dear friend that works for an Americorps type organization that does sex education for students in the inner-city schools of Washington DC.  One of the things that has become apparent to her is that the kids are growing up now actually believing that men can get pregnant.  And we're talking about non-transmen specifically.  How flipped up is that?

As long as transmen play on the women's teams, transwomen will be forced to wrongly play on the men's teams.

Discuss.

Something that hasn't been brought up yet:

Kye has a basketball scholarship.  If he were disallowed to play on the woman's team, they would forcing him to drop out of college.

Many of us lose our livelihoods due to coming out as trans.  One could also pay for college instead of attending under a scholarship.  So no, they would not be effectively forcing him to drop out.

He is lucky.  He is accepted by his peers and the school administration has changed his name in public records (it is unclear whether his legal documents have been changed).  As the school seems willing to change his name on the roster, one could certainly imagine the possibility of them extending a scholarship for him to play on the men's team.

It's hard to argue that people in America aren't morons and a lot of people will be able to understand the difference between gender identity and hormonal levels.  This man isn't exactly helping, but it's a battle for the most part I believe we have already won, aside from a few cases here and there. Most sports accept hormone levels now. I'm not sure I even completely agree with just the hormones deal though. Even if we change our hormone levels, we still get all those extra boosts from the testosterone during puberty (for most of us anyways). Any male to female that underwent HRT before puberty should be allowed to compete with women no questions asked, but I truly don't believe a male to female that underwent male puberty is in truly equal competition with genetic women. I think we should feel pretty lucky it has come as far it has. We have a distinct advantage in most sports, yet they're letting us slip through anyways because the gap is a lot smaller off testosterone. I think it's more of an issue that it would be MORE unfair to force those of us with female hormonal levels to compete with males than just to ignore the slight advantage we get over our GG counterparts. It's a pretty complex issue and honestly I'm amazed it has come as far as has considering gay marriage isn't even legal in most states.

Be careful equating Gay rights with Trans rights.  It was not that long ago that the Human Rights Campaign did not support a trans-inclusive ENDA.  Gay and Lesbians still have great access to healthcare and partner benefits (granted, a lot of work left to do here too).  However, we are still discriminated against for access to basic healthcare.

I for one am not going to remain complacent or conceited for the progress that has already been made, though I am thankful for it.  There is still way too much work left to do and progress to be made for me to remain silent.

It's not like he's someone who set out to be a man on the women's team. He may not even have known he would ever transition (or even realized he was trans) when he accepted the scholarship. Why should he suddenly give up everything he's worked for when he hasn't even gone through transition yet? He's still on a physical par with the women he plays with.
Transition doesn't mean one should give up all one's other dreams.
Why should he be punished for coming out?

You misunderstand me.  I am NOT advocating punishment.  This is also NOT an attack on transmen.  Nobody should be punished because they are trans!  I am merely advocating proper respect for one's choice in their gender identity and pointing out the disparity and injustice this will support against transwomen athletes.

I don't really see how this trans man playing for a women's basketball team is going to be the downfall for all trans women who want to play on women's teams. In a perfect world, everyone would just relax and allow people to participate in the various groups and teams that align with their desired gender.  However, we have to be realistic and understand that when it comes to competitive sports some grey areas do exist. In order for a trans woman to compete at the highest level of most sports (Olympics, Commonwealth Games, etc) they must have completed SRS and have undergone at least 2 years of post-op hormone treatment. This is to allow for the woman's body enough time to fall within similar physical ranges (strength, endurance levels) of a genetic woman.

Is this fair? Well, yes and no. Some people think that such restrictions invalidate the gender identity of a trans woman who has not had SRS, but wants to compete in female athelethics.  But is it really fair to genetic women to have to compete with a woman who has the advantage of having the strength and endurance that comes with having a male body?

In the end, I think you have to respect that when it comes to competitive sports, the Olympic standard is the only fair way to go. If a trans woman has not completed SRS and post op HRT, then perhaps it would be better to stick to recreational sports. That way you can participate as the woman you truly are, without having to meet a specific standard of a sports governing body.  That's what I'm doing. I play recreational co-ed ice hockey as female, no problems so far.

Many transwomen go through life without actually getting SRS (due to financial reasons, by choice, or what have you) but still live a full life as a woman, even at times with an identification card with a "F".  Am I hearing correctly that they shouldn't even be allowed to compete in sports as a woman?  But yet, even a transman that has not undergone SRS, maybe even only top surgery, should be allowed to compete in sports as men?

Quote from: girl_ashley on November 02, 2010, 08:29:54 PM
Many transwomen go through life without actually getting SRS (due to financial reasons, by choice, or what have you) but still live a full life as a woman, even at times with an identification card with a "F".  Am I hearing correctly that they shouldn't even be allowed to compete in sports as a woman?

Short answer: yes.
If a transwoman wants to participate in competitive women's sports, then she has to meet the requirements as set by that sports governing body.  Those requirements are in place to make the playing field as level as possible for all participating athletes. 

Think of it this way, just because a trans woman cannot get pregnant doesn't make her any less of a woman. So if a trans woman who doesn't have SRS or post HRT isn't eligible to compete in high level women's sports, that shouldn't make her less of a woman either.  I don't really see the big deal here.

Quote from: girl_ashley on November 02, 2010, 08:29:54 PM
But yet, even a transman that has not undergone SRS, maybe even only top surgery, should be allowed to compete in sports as men?

I think  trans people participating in sports need to be looked at on a case by case basis, while keeping in mind the sports rules and regulations. Personally, I would prefer to see this trans man play on the men's basketball team. But if he wants to play on the women's team because of his scholarship or preference who are we to criticize. He is just taking advantage of an unusual situation.   It is not much different than a trans woman marrying a genetic woman in states where same-sex marriage is not legalized, but can do so because the trans woman is still considered legally male for one reason or another.  Sometimes when you are given lemons, you make lemonade.

Quote from: girl_ashley on November 02, 2010, 07:39:19 PM
As the school seems willing to change his name on the roster, one could certainly imagine the possibility of them extending a scholarship for him to play on the men's team.

Not a chance in Hell. He's never played men's basketball, he's not on hormone treatments, if he started tomorrow he still wouldn't catch up with his male peers in physical strength and speed and maturity for another ~5 years, and even then, he'll still be dramatically shorter than male NCAA players, which is a major issue unless he's a point guard. He wouldn't even make the team, much less get a scholarship.

I think you severely underestimate the difference between men's and women's sports.

Wow, I didn't realize this would become this big of a debate.The fact that he has a scholarship makes things very complicated.These days with so many college graduates being in debt  a scholarship sure helps a lot.I think that this is very fair, the reality is that even though we are still women, having our bodies run on T does give us an unfair advantage.It sucks but that's the way it is.I know it hurts to feel invalidated Ashley, but we have to be realistic about these things.

Since the Caster Semenya story I've thought a lot about trans & intersex women in sports...I probably dont have a popular opinion but I personally believe the advantage of testosterone through puberty gives athletic quality's a natal female cant get in terms of long term bone structure, muscle mass etc .

Testosterone is a powerful horomone that gives you great physical advantage, -- especially if intersexed during puberty -  having lost a significant amount of strength since starting on HRT I can personally attest to it creating a lot of muscle with no physical work. But......that being said, due to my bone structure & (possibly density?) Im stronger than my natal female friends even though im the skinny'ist of them all (123 pounds at 6ft)

So my view is if you have had a significant amount of testosterone through puberty caused by intersex or ->-bleeped-<- (HRT)then you have a significant advantage over natal females & that should factor into your decision when choosing to compeat in the olympics.

Of course im all for trans-rights being a transexual myself but I believe when it comes to a game based on your physical makeup, being trans/inter is an advantage.

Well, the thing is that trans women on HRT might (possibly, on average) be advantaged over the average cis woman, but you're still within the range of normal female variability. After enough time on HRT your soft tissues are thoroughly female, and while there are some advantages provided by skeletal structure, they don't push you outside of female norms.

I don't know how long you've been on HRT, Jasmin, but the typical guideline is two full years. I don't know the particular science behind the guidelind so can't speak to whether it's long enough, but it's a fairly extended amount of time, it's not like "take spiro for 3 months and then come play women's hockey."

And for every sport where trans women might have an advantage due to skeletal structure that lasts after HRT (basketball, hockey...) there's a sport where being tall or solidly built or narrow-hipped is a disadvantage in the women's divisions (gymnastics, figure skating...) This is different from male musculature, which is advantageous in every sport (except for the female role in pairs skating).

Quote from: kyril on November 03, 2010, 06:53:27 AM
Well, the thing is that trans women on HRT might (possibly, on average) be advantaged over the average cis woman, but you're still within the range of normal female variability. 

Thats a good point, If your body does adhere within a range of normal female variability I guess judged by a giant data pool then there is no real difference 2+ years on hrt.

Definitely making me think more about the fairness of trans women in sports, I guess one could quote physical height being a factor in sports like netball but then again like you said in professional teams its not uncommon to see a league of 6ft natal girls.

Much to ponder :) thanks.

Quote from: kyril on November 03, 2010, 06:53:27 AM
I don't know how long you've been on HRT, Jasmin, but the typical guideline is two full years. I don't know the particular science behind the guidelind so can't speak to whether it's long enough, but it's a fairly extended amount of time, it's not like "take spiro for 3 months and then come play women's hockey."

For the olympics (and all those at national level that simply follow the olympic policy), AFAIK it's 2 years *after* surgery unless one started pre-puberty. So that's more like at least 3 or 4 years.

I honestly don't see how gender identity matters AT ALL in the context of sports.  The fact that he's admitted to feeling male doesn't change how he plays the game at all; he's still undergone the female socialization in high school, and knows how to play in the context of women's sports.  Gender identity shouldn't come into play.  As far as strength/endurance etc go, it's the hormones and the puberty development that will affect this, NOT the gender identity.  If he chose to play and receive T therapy, yeah, he should be excluded solely for the fact that he's effectively using steroids.  No athlete should receive this undue advantage, even if they're receiving the steroids for legitimate medical reasons. 

Now for the female transthletes.  We've been socialized in sports as male, and will probably play in a more masculine way; for better or for worse, that's how it is.  I think that many (most?) of us are willing to disregard this, and that's fine.  Maybe it doesn't play as large a role as I'd like to think.  We cannot disregard the effects of male puberty though.  I'm 6'4-6'9 (it varies by how my neck/back are that day.)  I've undergone MALE puberty to grow as large as I have, and it's important to consider the effects that something like that might have on female sports.  My T levels happen to be very low naturally (off topic, doesn't matter for this thread,) but I would still experience a significant benefit when it comes to sports in which size makes a difference (e.g basketball or swimming.)  Even if I had an orchi, had estrogen etc for years, the benefits conferred by developing male won't be fully negated.