Susan's Place Transgender Resources

My behavior this academic year has become much more 'heterosexual' in nature than it used to be.  Before, most people assumed I was a gay male, but now they assume I'm a straight male (which I am).  However, this has led to an induction into the social world of straight males, and I am struggling with what I find.  the constant comparing of women is what galls me the most.  I was at a bar the other night with a couple guys, and our female bartender was chatting us up quite a bit.  after we left the bar, they all came to the conclusion that while they would "do" her, none of them would actually kiss her.

Another scenario is when they talk about the women they eventually want to marry...jokes about physical abuse are fairly common.  To be honest I've known these guys more than long enough to be reasonably certain that they would never abuse their wives, but joking about it isn't much better to me.  This is pretty typical for the straight males I encounter.  How do you handle yourself when sexism rears its ugly head?  Is this typical for the straight males you interact with?  I never realized how far back we actually are in terms of adjusting our mindsets to view men and owmen as equal and deserving of equal treatment... :-\

I'll be honest here and say that I am one of those straight males, who jokes about all that inappropriate stuff. But that is exactly what it is... a joke. I would never hit a woman, nor do I think it is ok. And I also do not think that women are unequal to men. But I never viewed myself as a woman and was never offended by any of that kind of thing. But yes, that is typical of most men that I interact with.

Ugh.  That's one of those things that makes me think I won't be able to fit in.  I'll admit, I've made a comment or two in the past to try to fit in, but for the most part, avoid it as stuff like that annoys me.

Honestly I think this is in both male and female circles, at least in my experience. In Jersey you can't pump your own gas, and when the guy left my straight female friend said "Umpf! I would do him twice!" I don't see how saying you would "do" someone is sexist.  I have heard both men and women say stuff like this a million times. My grandmother jokes that she beats my grandfather all the time. This stuff seems normal to me. I don't think it implies one sex is unequal to the other.

Wow, this is the first topic in a long while where I've had much of anything to say (it's that whole 'the longer you've been on T, the more you have different issues to deal with, compared to those working on getting T'... thing).

A little background: I'm stealth at work.  To the point where I don't even think of it as 'stealth'--I'm just male, and that's that.  Dream come true.  I've always wanted to be treated as 'one of the guys' and, as much as I liked to think that I was treated as one prior to T (or even post-T, hanging around with guys who knew me from before)... it's clear that I wasn't.  They were leaving something out.

When I just started my job, one of my bosses made this comment about a higher-up female: "'...' is looking hot today."  Took me a little by surprise, but... I guess it's a compliment, right?  So I said to myself.  A few weeks later, a female co-worker came back to work after a long leave.  She had a shoulder bag, and the strap was between her breasts.  It made them very prominent.  The same guy commented on this, to her face, and then proceeded to get the approval of all the guys in the room.  He said to me: "aren't '...'s breasts great?".  I looked before thinking, and I ended up mentally slapping myself while trying to tear my eyes away.  Terrible way to introduce oneself.  There's other stuff; it's a constant thing.  They routinely look at porn and e-mail pictures.  On one hand, I'm shocked someone isn't slamming them with some sort of sexual harassment lawsuit.  On the other hand... it's not like I'm saying anything.  I look too.  I didn't at first, on principle, and everyone thought I was gay.  (This is starting to sound like it belongs on QueerSecrets: "I look at objectifying photos of women so the other guys won't think I'm gay and give me crap for it.") 

So yeah, even though I do like the photos--I feel bad about looking at them.  And I don't speak up because I'm the new guy, while this group has been together for 15-20 years.  They aren't changing their ways.  And to be honest, I kind of just want to fit in and be one of the guys for once.  This probably makes me a terrible person and a coward, at least in the eyes of some people.  Of course, Sharky has a point--females, when you're allowed into their 'circle,' will objectify and stereotype males, too.  That probably doesn't justify the behavior of either sex towards the other, but... it does make it equal.

Well saying to pals that you'd "do" someone is one thing. Another thing is when people restrict one person's value to their looks. Doesn't solely happen to unknown females, but also to trophy wives (who kind of play that game as well) etc. I've never or rarely heard females talk so nastily about guys as sex objects as vice versa.

Since transition, I've stumbled upon a lot of sexist remarks by straight guys which disgusted me a lot. And believe me, I'm cool there, have been in the gay scene for years where other people sometimes were just considered and talked about as a piece of meat. But that was males vs. males, and it could happen both ways round, to anybody, so that was fair. And it was not connotated with "she's a woman, therefore she's a sex object and it's my full right to consider her as such, and if she ->-bleeped-<-s around, she's a slut, but if I ->-bleeped-<- around, that's okay". Etc.

I hate this kind of conversation. When they start about which female looks better (a huge topic among guys), I tend to at least crush the topic by saying that looking good and being fun to play with in bed are two different things. (Anyway, I think talking about sex is more interesting than talking about looks.) When they tend to say really demeaning remarks about a woman's looks, which is none of their business, I tell them that most of our politicians are ugly, so who cares? And tend to keep away from them in the future. Which leaves me quite alone over time... And if they get objectified by a gay guy ONCE in their life, they whine and shreek about it like hell and wanna beat up all gay guys etc. But that's what women go through all the time. Wake up, dudes!

No, sorry, most straight dudes don't do it for me. They don't know what it's like to wander along a street at night as a female, or to get nasty luring remarks thrown at on the street at whatever time of the day etc., and don't want to learn about that or think that when women complain about these things, they're just exagerating. And then they complain that they don't understand women and have trouble keeping relationships working. Plus many of them say that women are so emotional and irrational that you cannot discuss with them on an equal level... Pfff... it's like being in a relationship with a black person while being racist or being deliberately (!) blind to racism.

I feel sorry for straight women, that they have to go through a lot of scumbags until they have the chance to find a guy who treats them well. And, in their absence, will talk to their friends without reducing them to their physical attractiveness.

Quote from: Fencesitter on November 07, 2010, 09:13:41 PM
And if they get objectified by a gay guy ONCE in their life, they whine and shreek about it like hell and wanna beat up all gay guys etc. But that's what women go through all the time. Wake up, dudes!

That... is so true.  And I will probably end up paraphrasing this at some point.

The way I handle it depends on the type of joking.  My male and female friends enjoy speaking crassly about the opposite sex, and making crude jokes, and I join in because I know it's all in good fun.  Among my friends, there might be an occasional joke with a reference to something abusive, but it's painfully obvious that it's just a joke, so it doesn't bother me.  I guess my friends and I could be described as, "Very kind and sensitive guys who indulge in sarcasm and crass humor and like to say offensive stuff just for the heck of it . . . the more offensive, the better."

Other guys often have a hint of seriousness to their tone when joking about offensive stuff.  It's weird - they don't go as far into offensiveness as my friends do, but they sound more like they mean it.  This ranges from stuff I just don't see the humor in to stuff that I think is slightly creepy.  But I ignore it most of the time.  Or (hate to admit this) I even feign amusement if I want them to keep including me as one of the guys.  Faking mild amusement is not my style, but it's a small price to pay for being seen as male, not female.

Well...I guess it's just been a really, really long time since this was new or shocking to me - I've always been included in those conversations. Not sure what to say...this is just how it is. Some guys are serious, some are "joking," some are playing along so people don't think they're gay, some are actually joking/being ironic. You can call them out, but that comes at some expense to your social status. You can try to redirect the conversation. Or you can just go along with it and call out the most egregious crap. But you won't change the world, no matter what you do. It just...is what it is.

I don't really see this in my academic circles, but I see it in trans circles, and I used to see it at work (I had a blue-collar job for quite some time). At my old job, I was known to be bisexual. The job was also male-dominated. So I heard a lot of this sort of stuff and even contributed to it.

I've never hung out with women much, but I have heard a few gals speaking about their significant others in fairly graphic and sexist terms.

I suspect that it happens on both sides.

I would like to support Arch's observation.

Having lived for most of my life on the female sides of the line I can tell you that we women do it just as effectively. We may do it slightly differently, but the intent and meaning is EXACTLY the same.

In fact I hate to break this to you but the difference is that while you guys often think you are superior we KNOW we are superior... Mostly we just let you think that you have the upper hand so that you remain happy playing with your toys and leave us to get on with the really important stuff ;)  :laugh:

So relax it's just all part of the game of life.  :D

I think it's completely normal for people to sexually objectify others. This is why porn is a multibillion dollar industry. In my experience women do objectify men just as bad as men objectify women. Depending on the social circle women may not be as open about it because of old stigmas. Even when I was going to a school for fundamentalist Christians, where we would have lectures on waiting until marriage, it happened. It was more hushed considering if you were caught having premarital sex you were kicked out, even if it was rape.  I don't see what's wrong with sexually objectifying others, it's just how it is.

There is a difference, though, just as there's a difference between straight male objectification of women and gay male objectification of men. The power dynamic is different. We still live in a culture and a society where women and femininity are devalued as compared to men and masculinity, where men have demonstrably greater power and influence, where men rape and physically abuse women at far greater rates than the reverse, where the female body is used to sell everything from beer to bodywash. I was raised to be a feminist and I can't help seeing these things and being bothered by them and by the way men's casual language so often plays into these power structures.

When I was in the military I was very much "one of the guys" and I got to see up-close-and-personal just how deep my coworkers' misogyny often went. The other women in my unit were quite often seen as nothing more than life-support devices for their vaginas. Their entire value as human beings was reduced to their physical appearance and sexual availability and purity. It was really bad. And every time I moved to a different unit I had to put in a lot of work just proving that I was actually a human being, part of which involved expressing the requisite level of contempt for the walking vaginal life-support-devices among us.

I had to sleep in female berthings so I was privy to women's private conversations as well  (unfortunately - I felt this was deeply inappropriate, like I was an unwilling spy in the enemy camp), and I assure you that they weren't even remotely similar in their degree of hostility and contempt. Nor would they have been morally equivalent even if they were similar, because women were a minority with only minimal access to power, and that power was accessed (in the way mine was) by conforming to the men's behaviour, including their misogyny, and was always conditional on continuing to conform.

That conditionality applies to most men, too, though. And that's why it's bloody hard for an individual to change anything. If you step out of line by refusing to participate (or worse, by calling people out on their behaviour), as a woman you lose your status as "one of the guys," while as a man you get marginalized as gay or a sissy. The only practical thing I was ever able to do was to talk to select individuals, carefully, one-on-one away from the group pressure, and encourage them to think critically about things they were saying and doing.

As a man, I'm gay, so I'll likely never have that access again.

 

Quote from: kyril on November 08, 2010, 04:17:03 AM
There is a difference, though, just as there's a difference between straight male objectification of women and gay male objectification of men. The power dynamic is different. We still live in a culture and a society where women and femininity are devalued as compared to men and masculinity, where men have demonstrably greater power and influence, where men rape and physically abuse women at far greater rates than the reverse, where the female body is used to sell everything from beer to bodywash. I was raised to be a feminist and I can't help seeing these things and being bothered by them and by the way men's casual language so often plays into these power structures.

When I was in the military I was very much "one of the guys" and I got to see up-close-and-personal just how deep my coworkers' misogyny often went. The other women in my unit were quite often seen as nothing more than life-support devices for their vaginas. Their entire value as human beings was reduced to their physical appearance and sexual availability and purity. It was really bad. And every time I moved to a different unit I had to put in a lot of work just proving that I was actually a human being, part of which involved expressing the requisite level of contempt for the walking vaginal life-support-devices among us.

I had to sleep in female berthings so I was privy to women's private conversations as well  (unfortunately - I felt this was deeply inappropriate, like I was an unwilling spy in the enemy camp), and I assure you that they weren't even remotely similar in their degree of hostility and contempt. Nor would they have been morally equivalent even if they were similar, because women were a minority with only minimal access to power, and that power was accessed (in the way mine was) by conforming to the men's behaviour, including their misogyny, and was always conditional on continuing to conform.

That conditionality applies to most men, too, though. And that's why it's bloody hard for an individual to change anything. If you step out of line by refusing to participate (or worse, by calling people out on their behaviour), as a woman you lose your status as "one of the guys," while as a man you get marginalized as gay or a sissy. The only practical thing I was ever able to do was to talk to select individuals, carefully, one-on-one away from the group pressure, and encourage them to think critically about things they were saying and doing.

As a man, I'm gay, so I'll likely never have that access again.

I totally agree.  :)  As much as others say it just is, it's good to know that you asked them to think twice before they open their mouths. 

If a guy heard other guys talking about his mother that way(as in 'walking tits and vagina), I'm sure they would be physically ill at the thought and a fight would ensue.  ::)

if a guy heard other guys talking about his mother that way

"Guy Rules" state that mothers, sisters and wives are off the table.

Is it wrong that I just don't see the big deal? They're only words....and I can't tell you how many times I've had to listen to a circle of women babble on about how useless, lazy, fat, small penis'ed, etc etc etc their boyfriends/husbands/random guys are.

In fact I'd go as far to say sexism has done a bit of a spin around in modern relationships these days. If a woman demanded her husband make her a cup of tea and he said "make your own bloody tea" - what would he be? an a-hole. If a man demanded his wife make him a cup of tea....regardless of her answer....what would he be? an a-hole.

Huh - when I read the original post I just thought, what kind of ->-bleeped-<-s are you hanging out with? Seriously. It's very, very rare if one of my straight guy friends (who deal with me on a male level) act sexist. Joking or not. There may be sexual talk, there  may be joking, but none of it would be considered sexist to me. Probably because these guys have some f-ing respect. I don't care who you are, or even if you are "joking" it's not a very funny joke if it's sexist because that just shows how much respect you don't have for another person. Me and a couple of these friends once were talking to another group of guys in a social atmosphere (actually it was at a concert and my friends were in bands - talking to other bands). One of the other guys said something about how he could "get any bitch to flash him her tits". We all stood there for a second and one of my friends pops up and said, "That's ->-bleeped-<-ed up man - if that's what you're in a band for it's the wrong reason" and walked off.

It's up to individuals to have some balls and combat sexism when it shows up. I know it's not easy - the easy way of course is being a jellyfish and to let the alpha males spread that crap around.

If more guys let other guys know they do not in fact find that ->-bleeped-<- appropriate or funny I'm betting it would change over time. The ones doing it were either raised in an environment where it happened (male figure growing up behaved that way), were once a jellyfish themselves or they probably just continue with that behavior because they just assume that's what you're supposed to do when you're a straight male (mostly from those learned experiences).

As for the flip side ... so women do that sort of thing? Of course. How the hell do you think a show like Sex in the City got so popular if women couldn't relate to it and think it was funny. However, there's two different mindsets at work. If a women wants to objectify a man - the "average" man thinks that's a ok. They WANT to be seen as a sex tool. However, women are dealing with eons of sexism where they were not treated as equals at all.

And @Ender that guy at your work should be slapped with a sexual harassment lawsuit - because that's a prime example of it.

Let's add not all guys are jerks.

The other day, when I was in the tram, several teenage boys sat down behind me and started telling jokes to each other, and laughed. Then one of them said: "What's the difference between a rape victim and a potato?" -"No idea." "The potato is under the earth first, and in the cellar later on." No one laughed, instead, two of the other guys said they found the joke tasteless, not funny and rude. They sounded kind of ashamed, maybe because the other people in the tram had heard that joke as well. The potato joke teller then said, ashamed as well, that they were right and that the joke was bad.

I just had to add this ...

After talking with another male friend of mine just now we both also said that men respect other men who stand up for what they believe in. And that can very well include shutting down a sexist comment or conversation by stating your opinion on it that you don't find it funny, right, etc. The men who would not respect you for an action like that are the type of jerks you wouldn't want to associate with.

Also, in terms of the workplace, men can also file sexual harassment charges or at the very least go to a higher up and mention that you're uncomfortable with the actions/language of another employee. But if you continue to "go along with it" be well aware that if a lawsuit ever came down the pipe, you could very well be implicated as well (especially from the main jerk who's the cause of it telling everyone that you do it too).

Of course, these types of scenarios do require you to stand up for what you believe in basically. Personally, I would do it, but that's me. You have to gauge any "consequences" in your own particular circumstance.

Also, the "just words" argument doesn't fly with me in this type of scenario because what this actually is, is verbal abuse. You might not be the object of that abuse, but someone is. Or maybe it's a whole cross section of the population (ex. all women). When people claim they are just "joking" like that, psychologically, they usually aren't. they're doing it to "fit it" - whether it aligns with what they actually think or not - or for some other reason. And I mentioned respect earlier. I really believe that is a big part of it as well. If you're going to say something like, "all that dumb bitch is good for is spreading her legs and getting me a beer" then you're not just saying it to be funny. You have internalized feelings about women in general where you feel the need to be "superior" with a crass statement that tells everyone you're talking to you have "the power". In reality, they probably lack self confidence or they were never taught about respect for other people.

And everyone is definitely not a jerk, like @fencesitter said in the story about the bus and the teenagers. Even teenagers can know better and have some standards. It's when behavior like that is encouraged (from other people in the group - laughing, agreeing, carrying on ....) that leads people to keep doing it to keep seeking the attention and pseudo-acceptance, that it becomes an on-going problem.

I know for a fact that there are women in this world who talk about men with the same, sometimes worse 'below the belt' demeanor. I don't think that sort of 'talk' is exclusively for one sex or the other although most would classify men having far more pig-headed thoughts and actions than women do but that doesn't apply to all.

As per the topic haha...yes this is very common amongst the straight males I hang out with. I'm not the most sensitive guy in the world so I take everything with a grain of salt and do find some of the banter rather humorous, even though I know some see it as offensive. Also, the group of guys I hang out with are all extremely soft and respectful guys underneath all the testosterone boiling on the surface lol.

Quote from: Jeatyn on November 08, 2010, 09:05:34 AM
Is it wrong that I just don't see the big deal? They're only words....and I can't tell you how many times I've had to listen to a circle of women babble on about how useless, lazy, fat, small penis'ed, etc etc etc their boyfriends/husbands/random guys are.

Couldn't agree more. It's mostly just harmless banter.

I suspect that those of us who see it as harmless banter and those who see it as something more than that are thinking of/experiencing different sorts of things. I've seen both, and the harmless banter is just that, but in some circles there's more malicious and harmful stuff going on. (Anyone else here who's been in the military? I know you know what I'm talking about...)

I'm differentiating harmless banter as something like poking fun of differences of men and women. If it starts to go sexual then it depends what the conversation actually is. If the topic is more along the lines of simply having sex or who you had sex with or even details about that sex, that isn't exactly sexist. That can be harmless conversation. I think what the original poster was talking about though (and what I've been posting about) is more abusive and sexist comments or those alluding to physical violence. I don't think it's ever "harmless" to talk about beating your wife. That is not a joke to me.

Words are not always harmless. Some things you can shake off, some are abusive. How would you feel if, in your circle of friends, ftm transsexuals (assuming they thought you were just a regular bio male) were brought up and one of those friends said something like, "You got a c--t for a reason, you're not a man and I'd f--k that idea right out of your head you dumb bitch!" and then laughed? Would those be harmless words then? I've heard someone say just about that and I didn't consider it harmless or funny at all.

The problem I have with some of the banter is that it can easily move from a harmless phrase (someone says, "Oh yeah, I'd do her" - pretty harmless) to something else really quickly ("Yeah, I'd put her on her knees where she belongs!" - sexist).

As @kyril said, the harmless stuff is usually easy to distinguish. But I still feel the types of things the original poster was talking about (physical violence) is not that type.

I've heard it all and I've experienced a great deal of it myself and I just see too many ways talk like this is not a good thing and it shows lack of respect.

I'm feeling pretty guilty now. I say stupid stuff and objectify women and men occasionally. It's just not something thought of when it happens. I think sometimes it just varies from person to person as to how bad it is.

Let me explain that a little. I guess somewhere along the lines during school abusive and aggressive words didn't mean much when people said them to me. I laughed off things like getting called a d*ke for the billionth time or being called a "->-bleeped-<-". I joke with my friends and say stuff like that and the "oh yeah I'd do her" thing that insideontheoutside mentioned because no one has ever spoken up and said it bothered them. I think I'll be re-thinking that next time I'm screwing around and joking with the guys.

Quote from: insideontheoutside on November 08, 2010, 04:47:35 PM
I'm differentiating harmless banter as something like poking fun of differences of men and women. If it starts to go sexual then it depends what the conversation actually is. If the topic is more along the lines of simply having sex or who you had sex with or even details about that sex, that isn't exactly sexist. That can be harmless conversation. I think what the original poster was talking about though (and what I've been posting about) is more abusive and sexist comments or those alluding to physical violence. I don't think it's ever "harmless" to talk about beating your wife. That is not a joke to me.

Words are not always harmless. Some things you can shake off, some are abusive. How would you feel if, in your circle of friends, ftm transsexuals (assuming they thought you were just a regular bio male) were brought up and one of those friends said something like, "You got a c--t for a reason, you're not a man and I'd f--k that idea right out of your head you dumb bitch!" and then laughed? Would those be harmless words then? I've heard someone say just about that and I didn't consider it harmless or funny at all.

The problem I have with some of the banter is that it can easily move from a harmless phrase (someone says, "Oh yeah, I'd do her" - pretty harmless) to something else really quickly ("Yeah, I'd put her on her knees where she belongs!" - sexist).

As @kyril said, the harmless stuff is usually easy to distinguish. But I still feel the types of things the original poster was talking about (physical violence) is not that type.

I've heard it all and I've experienced a great deal of it myself and I just see too many ways talk like this is not a good thing and it shows lack of respect.

This is not man bashing, but yeah, lots and lots a guys say exactly that!  Even vivid descriptions of vaginas in the most lewd way you can think possible, let alone any other body part.  ::)

In the military, construction workers, my Lord, it can be the topic of conversation day in, day out.

No woman could compete with that kind of thing, even 'sex in the city' which is just like 'two and half men', harmless sex talk and banter. HUGE difference!

Yes, women can be cruel and bitchy when scorned by their b/f, mentioning penis size which is just so childish too, but that's hurt talking.

It would be nice if these guys (not all, but a significant number) could ease up on the violent innuendo/rape talk every second day, pretty scary stuff.