Susan's Place Transgender Resources

So I happened to recently come across some opinions about how trans people speak of their various body parts. The opinion was that it is whack that FTMs call their "female" parts by male terminology. Example - boobs become moobs, etc.

So, the purpose of my post here is to discuss this and share opinions. My personal opinion is that it's your body - you can refer to any of its parts however you feel comfortable. Also, it would seem to me, knowing that many trans people are very uncomfortable with their bodies that they would refer to certain parts in a way that allows them to be more comfortable.

What I can't really tolerate lately is people that seem to feel the need to tell other people how they should feel about their bodies or what's going on in their minds - telling a whole cross section of people that how they refer to themselves or their parts is "wrong".

By this same token, is it wrong for a regular female to refer to her boobs as, "the girls" (or anything else), or a regular guy to refer to his dick as his "junk" (or anything else)? Why is it that these special rules apply to trans people? I've heard regular females use the phrase, "suck my dick" ... and regular guys tell one of their guy friends they had "sand in their vagina" ... are those all wrong too?

There are innumerable words and phrases for, "private parts" so why do trans people get dissed for referring to theirs a certain way?

Anyway, that's a little bit of rant, but I still wonder when people will get over their double standards and gender binary b.s.

Personally, I have a dick and I've never had any problem calling it that. It mostly looks like one and acts like one so it falls into the, "call a duck a duck" category for me. The tits are just that. I have occasionally referred to them as moobs .. or just simply, "my chest". I really don't have any other part references that I discuss - never really a need to.

So what do you use to refer to your "parts"?

Hi .

I have wondered along those lines ,

as im  a woman ,

i have like most women,   breasts .  & a virginia .as to any other details thats in side of me thats hidden & unless theres a reason to say any thing about that in the context of healh reasons ill only talk with women about that

now of cause there are other terms used by others & some are quite vulga & very demeaning . of cause many males use  those terms as a put down of girls,, females . /women..

if in a forum we are disscusing weight height & so on if its a help to some one or as we say stats then ill do that /
.
other wise i dont say much if at all.    as theres no need. im a woman & my friends are much like me its not a issue thats talked about ,& has nothing to do with trans people , well not where we are.

...noeleena...

Quote from: insideontheoutside on November 16, 2010, 12:11:05 AM
So I happened to recently come across some opinions about how trans people speak of their various body parts. The opinion was that it is whack that FTMs call their "female" parts by male terminology. Example - boobs become moobs, etc.

So, the purpose of my post here is to discuss this and share opinions. My personal opinion is that it's your body - you can refer to any of its parts however you feel comfortable. Also, it would seem to me, knowing that many trans people are very uncomfortable with their bodies that they would refer to certain parts in a way that allows them to be more comfortable.

What I can't really tolerate lately is people that seem to feel the need to tell other people how they should feel about their bodies or what's going on in their minds - telling a whole cross section of people that how they refer to themselves or their parts is "wrong".

By this same token, is it wrong for a regular female to refer to her boobs as, "the girls" (or anything else), or a regular guy to refer to his dick as his "junk" (or anything else)? Why is it that these special rules apply to trans people? I've heard regular females use the phrase, "suck my dick" ... and regular guys tell one of their guy friends they had "sand in their vagina" ... are those all wrong too?

There are innumerable words and phrases for, "private parts" so why do trans people get dissed for referring to theirs a certain way?

Anyway, that's a little bit of rant, but I still wonder when people will get over their double standards and gender binary b.s.

Personally, I have a dick and I've never had any problem calling it that. It mostly looks like one and acts like one so it falls into the, "call a duck a duck" category for me. The tits are just that. I have occasionally referred to them as moobs .. or just simply, "my chest". I really don't have any other part references that I discuss - never really a need to.

I suppose you are referring to the last post in my blog, so I'll add some further comments to clarify myself. You can comment there too if you want, I'm totally open to it.

The thing is, referring to female parts with male terminology doesn't really bother me that much, and if you want to call your vagina a "smeerp" that is not my business either. What really bothers me is calling them things like "tumours" or "junk", which are per se offensive terms. This underlies some contempt to the body itself, which is a major reason for which trans people are depressed. I'm not saying you should accept your female body - the choice is necessarily yours only - but anyone should not discard it altogether as "junk". That "junk" is part of who you are even if you don't like it, just like a big, deep scar most people can see is. That was my main point really.   

BlueTraveler (sorry to derail your post for a second insideontheoutside) I refer to my lower regions as junk. I know many bio-guys who do the same. By doing this it is a way to reference it without thinking about it.

So my question is, forgive me for bluntly saying this as I cannot think of another way, why does anyone care how I refer to what resides in my pants if they do not see it or otherwise need to think/know about it? If something as simple as a word makes me feel slightly better about my dysphoria then why does it matter? You're entitled to your opinion, as am I, so I'm not trying to change it even if I disagree just trying to understand it.

So many people refer to their genitals as junk.  What the hell is the big deal with that   ???  You're going overboard now BlueTraveller, you've lost me   ???

I only call my bits my "dick" in sexual situations.  I don't really need to talk about it the rest of the time.  And my chest is just my chest. 

I didn't know that junk was a commonly used slang term for genitalia (is it male only or not?). English is not my mother tongue after all. So you can strike out the part about "junk", but what about "tumours" and "inside junk" (uterus)?

EDIT: Thanks Urban Dictionary, what would I do without you!

Quote from: Bluetraveler on November 16, 2010, 03:55:01 AM
I didn't know that junk was a commonly used slang term for genitalia (is it male only or not?). English is not my mother tongue after all. So you can strike out the part about "junk", but what about "tumours" and "inside junk" (uterus)?

EDIT: Thanks Urban Dictionary, what would I do without you!

Oh okay fair enough.  Yeah it's used all the time.  Inside junk kind of is as well.  I call it that because I am phobic of those body parts.  Not just dysphoric, actually phobic and have been since I was a kid.  So will devalue it as much as I like.

Tumours I have never heard stuff called   :-\   But think that is pretty offensive, considering pretty much everyone knows of a person who has died of/suffered with cancer

I've heard many FtMs call their boobs/moobs/chest "tumors". I've heard it a lot, so I guess it doesn't bother me.

Personally, I have always been very aware that I have a female body, so I call my boobs...well, boobs.

As for "junk", I live in a sort of ghetto area, and most of the guys here call their dick "junk". It's quite common in the US. I wouldn't consider it offensive. I call my genitalia my junk, even if I have a lack of something there. It's a habit. I hear it frequently, so I've gotten used to saying it, you know?

"Inside junk" is sort of a logical extension of calling the entire assembly of reproductive organs our "junk." Which is in fact a very common slang term for men's reproductive organ assembly.

"Tumours" and "growths" and all that...yeah, I'm not into that. Don't like "moobs" either, not accurate. I mostly don't refer to my female-specific parts at all, and if I have to I'll either use medically correct terminology ("breast tissue," "vagina," "clitoris") or something extremely vague like "junk" or "chest." I don't like using derogatory terms - I don't hate those parts, I'm just uncomfortable with owning them.

But there are guys who are very emotionally affected by having female-specific organs and who really dislike or hate them. I don't think it's anyone's place to tell anyone how they should/shouldn't refer to their own bodies. "Tumours" might be going a little far, given that they're clearly not malignant cancerous growths...but I think there are ways to approach that sort of specific terminology without attacking all of the ways in which trans men verbally deal with our inappropriate anatomy.

Not being extremely dysphoric, I think of my chest as just being my chest.  It's hard to think of it as breasts or boobs because I associate that with beautiful, feminine things on women, so I cannot really mentally apply it to myself.  However, I could see how people who view theirs more negatively could see it as tumors or moobs.  Tumors are technically abnormal growths of tissue and not necessarily related to cancer, so it does apply to this situation.  Moobs are male boobs, and we are men with boobs.  I don't quite see what the issue is with that.  Anyways, lecturing someone isn't going to change how they view or refer to their body, and I'm not quite sure why it matters anyways.

It depends on who I'm talking to really. To people I'm close to I'll call them boobs and a vagina with a obvious hint of dislike in my voice. To people I don't know, it's my chesticles or moobs and junk, just to make it a bit funny and less medical (vagina...ew).

@ Bluetraveler, Obviously there is contempt for these body parts. We don't want them. Most of us don't want them anyway. There are guys who are okay with having a "pussy" and "owning" it.  And that's fine. I'm sure there are those who are offended by the word pussy too. So what. I don't get why what we refer to our parts as matters to anyone else.

I don't think it matters what anyone calls any part of their body.  It's common for people to make up interesting names or words for their genitals and breasts.  That's not a trans-specific thing.

Quote from: Alexmakenoise on November 16, 2010, 09:41:37 AM
I don't think it matters what anyone calls any part of their body.  It's common for people to make up interesting names or words for their genitals and breasts.  That's not a trans-specific thing.

Exactly.  When they start calling parts of other people's bodies terms that person might find offensive then we could have a problem.  Your own body you can call whatever you are comfortable with and gives you a bit of a naughty tingle.

For the record I say, cock, junk, breasts and ass or ->-bleeped-<-.   :angel:

My chest is my chest but sometimes I say they are tumors because that is what they are to me. My mom had breast cancer. I don't know why me calling 2 essentially lumps of unwanted tissue growing on my chest that are not supposed to be there would offend anyone.

I call my dick a dick or junk or whatever else I feel like calling it. Its my dick, I can call it whatever I want. Just like guys who name their dick and refer to it as that in any sort of situation. Not my business or my problem.

Quote from: Carson on November 16, 2010, 11:04:11 AM
Its my dick, I can call it whatever I want.

This  :laugh:

Typically junk and chest.

Upper;
the chesticles, my chest, the.. ugh... tits...

Lower;
junk, cock, penis, crotch, etc..

I call the chest appendages moobs or just chest.  The downstairs equipment I call junk or dick.  I don't see anything wrong with it and it eases the dysphoria.

Quote from: insideontheoutside on November 16, 2010, 12:11:05 AM

By this same token, is it wrong for a regular female to refer to her boobs as, "the girls" (or anything else), or a regular guy to refer to his dick as his "junk" (or anything else)? Why is it that these special rules apply to trans people? I've heard regular females use the phrase, "suck my dick" ... and regular guys tell one of their guy friends they had "sand in their vagina" ... are those all wrong too?

Before I state my opinion on trans people's body parts/titles for them I'd like to state my opinion on this section of your post, even though they are somewhat related, as so I don't get all muddled.
For the first part "junk" and "the girls" are at this point colloquialisms.  Someone says "My junk" or "His junk" you automatically jump to genitals.  The boobs one is more contextual but generally the same situation. 
For the second part I believe in both of those statements [especially in the sand in their vagina case] that the irony of the situation is half the point.  Saying someone has sand in their vagina is more a way of making fun of a guy friend for being a girl [because anyone with a "vagina" has to be a girl right? =p]  and for being whiney or in a mad mood.  "Suck my dick" is a way of saying I have the power here and don't care what discomfort it causes you.  Girls who say this are very rarely [if ever] actually referring to their own genitals as a dick.

That being said I don't generally at all refer to my genitals, and I never plan to.  Its not something I discuss or mention in any sort of company, and never plan to.  [being post-surgery, on T, and quite slim]  I do make joking reference to my "boobies" from time to time. 
If I hear[or see] other transmen refer to their down-below's as their junk or their dick that seems alright to me.  I'd probably go with "junk" if it was forced.  Its technically vague, and in a way very true.  Its stupid that it would be referred to as the same thing as a females genitals, and is quite rude for people to assume that they would be.  Why people do? I don't know I think it makes them more comfortable somehow, but that is clearly their problem.  Hell, I'm all for making "normal" people feel uncomfortable about such things.  Its about time they had a turn with it.

GnomeKid said just what I wanted to say about that little section he quoted.

Aside from that, I call my junk "junk" all the time. It's either that or crotch. Other male terms come into play with sexual situations. As for my "breasts", I see them as moobs and nothing else. That is a personal belief. Maybe I've grown into it, but it's how I feel. With all the other terms I hear, it just comes down to opinion/feeling/choice.

On a side note of previous comments... Though this might offend others, I think words should just be words in some situations. I don't think anyone should take it to heart when you shouldn't. An example would be being offended by someone calling their technical breasts "tumors". This is just how I feel and I know others feel different. I'm just hoping to make you think about it if you're not.

Quote from: Bluetraveler on November 16, 2010, 03:10:58 AM
What really bothers me is calling them things like "tumours" or "junk", which are per se offensive terms. This underlies some contempt to the body itself, which is a major reason for which trans people are depressed.

"Tumor" is not, in and of itself, an offensive word. Among other things, a tumor is a growth or a protuberance. And I believe that other people have enlightened you about "junk."

But even so, what difference should it make to you? It's not like other people are imposing these terms upon you and insisting that you use them for yourself or for others. This is a trans support site. People who come here should expect that a lot of the members have problems with their, um, members. That discomfort is one of the most common characteristics that lots of trans people, particularly transsexuals, tend to share. Not all of them, by any means, but you're going to see a lot more of that discomfort on a trans site than on a non-trans site. That's one reason we come here, to talk about our commonalities. Our trans commonalities. So anyone here, trans or not but especially trans, can call a body part a birth defect or a cancerous growth or a monstrosity or worse, and the beautiful thing is that this language will usually be understood by the people here to be personal, not universal, and an indication of the daily distress that many of us grapple with. It's a fact of this site.

And let me straighten out one more thing while I am here. I am speaking purely for myself.

When I am depressed about being trans, my "contempt" for my body is not what depresses me.

The wrongness of my body depresses me.

The things I have and that I feel I should not have depress me.

The lack of what I feel I should have had depresses me.

Other trans people's pain depresses me.

Trans-unfriendly bureaucracies depress me.

Discrimination, and other people's bigotry and rejection, depress me.

Other people's telling me how I should respond to and label my own body parts just PISSES ME OFF.

Crap. Sorry. I really had something to contribute. I did.

But it struck me as poetically ironic that IOTO posted annoyance with people's telling other people how to label themselves, and then...well, you know.

I had all sorts of names for my chest, but that part of my body has been surgically corrected.

Like a lot of guys in trans circles, I do not use terminology that is female-specific.

I think of and refer to my nether part, my little hooded cobra, as junk, privates, stuff. I often use the term "dick" but not "penis."

I have a front hole. I don't call it much else. There's no real male analog. Way back when, I thought of it as my boy hole, but that term didn't survive very long.

My innards I refer to sometimes as, well, innards. Or inside stuff. I often think of all of that as a growth and sometimes a tumor. Occasionally I think of it as an alien, a bloodsucking leech, and a parasite--almost as if it were a fetus living off my body. It helps me to think of it as something that sort of grew there, something diseased and abnormal that isn't life-threatening but that will eventually be removed.

Actually, I liked your first post. It stated with reasonable calmness what I was getting irritated about, without any of the muddled ranting my post would have contained. But now that that's taken care of I can actually respond to the original question.

I call my chest my chest. Sometimes moobs, because I am a man with boobs, therefore they are man-boobs. When I had just hit puberty I was fond of referring to them with very colourful phrases such as "these !@#$%^&* floppy !@#$bags," but it got tiring after a while. If I'm very dysphoric a particular day I might refer to them mentally as pecs, since that's what should be there.

Stuff below - my genitals, my bits, my crotch, my nether-regions. Gender neutral terms. More recently I've taken to using the word dick for what I have, sometimes dicklet. The uterus and such are my reproductive organs, or gamete producers. In times of frustration I call it all my girly innards.

The way I see it, I am male and this is the body I have, therefore I have a male body. Male bodies have male parts and organs. The irregularity of these organs in appearance and function doesn't change that, so there's no reason I can't use male terms for them.

I say breasts, boobs, and "the girls".  They'll also get called "airbags" or "floatation devices" or anything else.

I also say vagina and hoo-hah and all sorts of random things. 

Words are just words to me so I use whatever comes to mind.  I'm not a picky person when it comes to it.

I think of my entire body sometimes as a trans body, sometimes as a hybrid body. More and more, though, I'm thinking of it and referring to it as an atypical male body. I am well aware that biologists and anatomists might dispute this characterization, but since the terms "male" and "female" have evolved to encompass aspects other than biological sex, I don't much care what other folks think. I do what I must to get through the day.

I sometimes jokingly call my breasts chestbursters (from the Alien films). I don't really have a name for what's "below the belt", I rarely talk about it and if I do, I call it "down there", "crotch", "genitals", etc. I also call my breasts moobs, fat, growths, and other such things. I don't like talking about them.

I don't really care about what's below the belt, really. It's the chest growth that makes me disgusted. That and the hips. It just looks so bizarre; my body has morphed into something unrecognizable. Gross.

Quote from: Maldita on November 17, 2010, 12:34:17 AM
That and the hips.

I keep telling myself that lots of cis guys are hippy...I've seen them. It helps. I think we tend to want a body that is typical in every way, and then we fixate on all sorts of little details.

I remember nearly twenty years ago...well, '92 or '93...and I was thinking how glad I was that I didn't really have a "figure." I mean, I had chest growths, but I didn't have a narrow waist or big hips. It wasn't extreme. Now, my hips haven't gotten any wider, but they do look so odd with a flat chest above them. The disparity is unsettling. So now I obsess about my hips. It's kind of stupid, but I can't seem to stop. Fortunately, I don't do it often, maybe a couple of times a week.

Well, I really have a figure. Huge child-bearin' hips (rather uncommon here in Sweden, where most women/woman-bodied are more of the slender-and-willowy type), rather large breasts, rather marked waist. Hourglass figure, and an arse to rest a pint on and park a bike in.

Not a good body shape for a boy. I look like this:
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fcruiseelroy.net%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2008%2F04%2Fmidna.jpg&hash=cf284497359c20b80ed4ce16ff106d4da6b7f6f5)

Quote from: Maldita on November 17, 2010, 06:16:48 AM
Well, I really have a figure. Huge child-bearin' hips (rather uncommon here in Sweden, where most women/woman-bodied are more of the slender-and-willowy type), rather large breasts, rather marked waist. Hourglass figure, and an arse to rest a pint on and park a bike in.

Not a good body shape for a boy. I look like this:
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fcruiseelroy.net%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2008%2F04%2Fmidna.jpg&hash=cf284497359c20b80ed4ce16ff106d4da6b7f6f5)

I got them wide hips too...

and yet.... hubby wears the same size pants as I do. (Waist-wise, not length, my pant-lenght is three sizes above his.)

Somehow I've managed to consider my nether regions, downstairs and innards as mine and the rest as being shaped or in size differently to a typical blokes and they don't cause me dysphoria but I refer to my chest as "chest" usually. I don't mind what other people want to call their bits but if certain words bring on dysphoria with my chest I own that that's my reaction to such words, my problem.

I think most of you actually didn't read the post on my blog (not even here!) which started this topic...I wasn't ordering anyone to do anything, it was just a message really, and I didn't focus on any specific person. I also don't get offended as a female if a FTM calls his breasts "tumours", if that that is what he thinks of his breasts, I'm just sorry he has this view of them because it causes unnecessary grief. What about seeing them as scars? That's the point I was making in my post


EDIT: my original post

I don't think this will make into a full-blown post, but since I feel like writing, and I have many things to say but little time, I'll post it anyway. The comments might be more interesting than the post itself.

I mainly visited FTM forums or FTM areas, I don't know if something similar happens in MTF sections so if you know, please post a comment. The following observation are limited to FTM areas:

Bodies. They are important, they matter and they are not to be treated lightly. We as humans are not just our body (otherwise what would the Elephant Man get to say?), but it's important that we recognize our phisicality and strive to make the most of it everyday (but not to the point of obsession or nevrosis, of course). I started having more physical problems when, after puberty, I distanced myself from my new, adult female body, but it was only when I started to accept it that the problems went away (I had psychological amenhorrea, that is, lack of menstruations wIhich caused me endless problems). So I experienced on myself the fact that body and mind ARE connected, there's no Cartesian dualism or brains floating in formaldeide jars (Futurama is wrong!).
Why am I prefacing this?

In FTM forums, many, many people use ridiculous, mechanical and/or childish names for female parts. More or less like this:

breasts = chest (still acceptable?), moobs, chesticles, chest tumours, junk
vagina = hole, front hole, bleeding hole, junk
clitoris = dick, little guy, junk
ovaries = reverse testicles, tumours, junk
uterus = babymaker, baby factory, junk
Your body is NOT JUNK! You may not like it, but it's a valuable thing, even if it "betrayed" you at puberty! Female parts are part of your history, regardless of the fact you like it or not, just like scars and wrinkles are. You would not be YOU if you didn't have your "junk", even if it's a thing you hate with the fiercest of passions. I accepted my female body but I also have a baby face as well. Guess what, I'd LOVE to have a more mature, androgynous looking face, so that I could "pass" as my real age and not get weird looks when I talk complex stuff or I drive, but it's part of me and the solutions to the obstacles I had to overcome for it (in my field especially) are now part of me too. So if I magically changed my face to something more mature and masculine, I'd lose an important part of myself as well.
Don't hate your body, and remember that scars (but not mastectomy ones) are cool!

I think what I said is essentially very different that what you intended.


EDIT2: I'd also like if you addressed your issues with what I wrote on my blog, not here obliquely. That's not a very "manly" thing to do, is it?

I didn't read your blog. I looked for it but couldn't find the link. I was just commenting on the original post of this topic.

Calling my breasts tumors does not cause me any distress, no more than calling my leg a leg or my elbow an elbow. Yes I was top surgery and am getting it soon but it doesn't have anything to do with the word. It has to do with the fact that no matter what they are, no matter what you call them, I want them off. I've been on this road for awhile, obviously not as long as some, and probably not as long as some people who eventually changed their mind but for me personally, I know that right now I am doing the right thing for me. If that for some absolutely insane reason changes somewhere down the road then I will have to deal with that when the time comes, just as I dealt with this.

Just change it to:

in FTM internet forums, as well as in real life many, many people use ridiculous, mechanical and/or childish names for female parts.

Let it go as that, it's true enough.

Quote from: Bluetraveler on November 17, 2010, 12:27:58 PM
I also don't get offended as a female if a FTM calls his breasts "tumours", if that that is what he thinks of his breasts, I'm just sorry he has this view of them because it causes unnecessary grief. What about seeing them as scars? That's the point I was making in my post.

Bodies. They are important, they matter and they are not to be treated lightly. We as humans are not just our body (otherwise what would the Elephant Man get to say?), but it's important that we recognize our phisicality and strive to make the most of it everyday (but not to the point of obsession or nevrosis, of course). Why am I prefacing this?

In FTM forums, many, many people use ridiculous, mechanical and/or childish names for female parts.

With all due respect to the fact that you are a non-native English speaker, I think you fail to understand how offensive your posts are to some of us, because YOU ARE NOT TRANS!

Calling breasts "tumours" isn't what gives transmen grief. Most of us experience grief over the fact that we have breasts. To insinuate that we are feeling grief because of the words that people use is a MAJOR misunderstanding of the trans experience, and you think that because you tried on a pair of our shoes and they didn't fit you, you have some insight to give us about what we feel. Calling them scars doesn't change the problem of being a man with breasts anymore than calling them tumours or whatever.

many of us are "making the most" of our bodies, but believe that it is only by changing our bodies that we can truly be who we are. If you do not understand the role of body dysmorphia or what it actuallymeans to be a GUY who has to deal with a female BODY, then you are in no position to lecture any of us on making the bets of our bodies. Your dysmorphia experience is your own and not particularly relevant to most of us in this FTM community.

Last, calling the behavior of FTMs as ridiculous and childish is flat-out insulting name calling.

I have tried to be patient with your posts here,as I am a lurker who only recently started posting, but howdare you come to this supposed safe space broadcasting your wonderful discovery of your not being trans and then calling our responses to our experiences as ridiculous and childish? This is not about native English speaking or about culture,because people have been telling you that you are acting in a rude and offensive way, and you ar enot listening.

Please start listening and understand what we are saying before you post again and insult us. You do have a valuable experience to share in determiningthat you are not trans, but if you can only share it in a devaluing and derogatory way you don't belong here.

Quote from: Bluetraveler on November 17, 2010, 12:27:58 PM
In FTM forums, many, many people use ridiculous, mechanical and/or childish names for female parts. More or less like this:

EDIT2: I'd also like if you addressed your issues with what I wrote on my blog, not here obliquely. That's not a very "manly" thing to do, is it?

Ok - on the first thing above ... when you use words such as "ridiculous" and "childish" that is your opinion of course but it puts a derogatory spin on the opinion too. As another example, take a statement like, "I really don't like what you just said," and compare it to, "I really don't like that stupid thing you just said." Just a couple added words makes a difference in there. Instead of just making a simple observation of, "Many people seem to use other terms for their body parts" you added in that extra bit.

Now on #2 - First, thanks for the personal diss. If I would have wanted to comment on your blog about this topic, I would have. You blog made me think of the topic in general and I was actually interested to hear everyone else's take on what they call their parts and it made me think of several other general points I wanted to make - which I thought I did already in the initial post.

I don't care what you post in your blog. You can post whatever you want there because it's your blog. However I didn't know there was some unknown rule that if someone were to read your blog they could only talk about it (in general terms, no less) on your blog. Guess I better get with the program.

"junk" as a term for "men's genitalia" is commonly used by cis-men and cis-women alike...
My husband sometimes refers to his genitalia as junk, sometimes in reference to needing a shave, sometimes in reference to needing attention, sometimes in passing for no reason. He doesn't use the term derogatorily, nor with hostility. Nor do I use the term negatively when I'm talking 'bout his junk. I love his junk. It's awesome!

Trans-people don't feel negatively towards their body-parts because they use negative terms for them, they use negative terms for them because they feel really, really, really, really, really negatively towards them.
As in, it's hard for me to say "breasts" when referring to what's on my chest, not because I call the chesticles chesticles, but because I do not want them there, because they don't go there, because they are "wrong". Because I need to get rid of them to feel remotely comfortable with my chest.

As in, I'm a guy, a bloke, a dude, a man, a "HE", and I should not have "breasts".

Quote from: Bluetraveler on November 17, 2010, 12:27:58 PM
In FTM forums, many, many people use ridiculous, mechanical and/or childish names for female parts. More or less like this:

Okay, I have to know.  Bluetraveler, do you always refer to all your body parts by their proper, anatomical names?  Do all your cis friends and relatives do the same?  I've heard people of many identities use non-technical terminology for parts of their body.  Please don't think this is an FTM-specific issue.  I think others have already covered why "junk" is not a condemnation of anyone's genitals, but I've personally been using that word for myself since years before I dared to think of my body in any male-framed way, and some other people I know have done the same, so I don't think it's a gendered/sexed term at all.

On an unrelated note, as a dude who has actually had a brush with breast cancer (me personally, not just a friend/family member), I do find the use of the term "tumor" somewhat distressing.  But it is absolutely not my place to tell others how to describe their bodies; even if I can tell them that I disapprove of the use of the word and why, I can only hope they refrain from using that word in a non-medically accurate sense out of consideration for my history, as it is not my place to tell them how to verbalize their thoughts on their bodies.  Maybe everyone here would benefit from reading this article about how we as a society think about the bodies of trans folks: http://nonop.zxq.net/homology.html (http://nonop.zxq.net/homology.html).

My chest is a chest and my crotch is a crotch.

I missed this line at the first readthrough..

Quote from: Bluetraveler on November 17, 2010, 12:27:58 PMremember that scars (but not mastectomy ones) are cool!

Exactly what is that supposed to mean?

I have scars caused by violence towards me, aimed to harm me. Those scars are "cool" but the ones I'll have after I choose to take charge of my own body, choose to get rid of something that causes me severe psychological harm, those will be "not cool".

Quote from: Bluetraveler on November 17, 2010, 12:27:58 PMEDIT2: I'd also like if you addressed your issues with what I wrote on my blog, not here obliquely. That's not a very "manly" thing to do, is it?

The conversation is on a topic that affects a lot of trans-folk. We get a lot of flack against us in a lot of places. As such, these conversations sometimes find their way here, where we discuss these things amongst ourselves.
If you'd rather we'd post our objections/corrections to your blog, the lot of us, you should post the link.

For the most part people have pointed out most of the problems with the post, but is anyone else made a little uncomfortable by the following?

Quote from: Bluetraveler on November 17, 2010, 12:27:58 PM
We as humans are not just our body (otherwise what would the Elephant Man get to say?), but it's important that we recognize our phisicality and strive to make the most of it everyday (but not to the point of obsession or nevrosis, of course).

Female parts are part of your history, regardless of the fact you like it or not, just like scars and wrinkles are. You would not be YOU if you didn't have your "junk", even if it's a thing you hate with the fiercest of passions.

EDIT2: I'd also like if you addressed your issues with what I wrote on my blog, not here obliquely. That's not a very "manly" thing to do, is it?

First, we are not just our body, but then later who we are is dependent on our junk?
I'd like to think that my junk has nothing to do with who I am, since it doesn't.  :-\

On a personal level, I do not appreciate being told that I have "female parts" (especially in the context of said parts defining who I am). If others wish to refer to their anatomy that way then that's none of my business, but I am MALE and as such my body is male as far as I'm considered. It may not be a traditional male body by most standards, but it is certainly not female.

Also, I really like the part where our masculinity was questioned, in what appears to be a condescending tone (granted, tone doesn't carry well through text). That made my day. (Can you feel the sarcasm?)

Quote from: Bluetraveler on November 17, 2010, 12:27:58 PM
That's not a very "manly" thing to do, is it?

Wow   :o  Patronising  ::)

I don't think its anyone elses business what I call my body parts.  If someone doesn't like my terminology they can ignore it.

Our minds determine who we are.

Quote from: Bluetraveler on November 17, 2010, 12:27:58 PM
I think most of you actually didn't read the post on my blog (not even here!) which started this topic...

What, is that required reading? I was responding to your post in this thread.

Quote from: Bluetraveler on November 17, 2010, 12:27:58 PM
In FTM forums, many, many people use ridiculous, mechanical and/or childish names for female parts.

Yeah! Like Oprah and "vajayjay." But I guess that's all right. After all, she is non-trans and therefore vastly superior to us.

Quote from: Bluetraveler on November 17, 2010, 12:27:58 PMYou would not be YOU if you didn't have your "junk", even if it's a thing you hate with the fiercest of passions. I accepted my female body but I also have a baby face as well. Guess what, I'd LOVE to have a more mature, androgynous looking face...So if I magically changed my face to something more mature and masculine, I'd lose an important part of myself as well.

So my buddy who had phalloplasty is suddenly a different person? Granted, he will change somewhat because of his surgery, but he's still the same person. Only happier. He's so bloody happy that he almost can't stand it. Yeah, it would definitely have been better to just stick with what he had originally.

And a person with a nasty port wine stain on his face should just leave it there, no matter how bad it makes him feel and no matter how many rude comments he gets from insensitive dolts? And people shouldn't be allowed to get nose jobs or reconstructive surgery? After all, that terrible facial scar that the mugger left on Cathy's face is a part of her now. If she repairs her scar, she's denying an important part of who she is.

Quote from: Bluetraveler on November 17, 2010, 12:27:58 PMDon't hate your body, and remember that scars (but not mastectomy ones) are cool!

I'll be sure to tell that to the gal at my school who has one of those scars because of cancer. "Hey, Sally, your surgery scar isn't cool!" I'm sure that would go over well.

And as for me, I didn't have top surgery to be cool. I did it so I could stay alive.

Normally I try to stay out of these things because I am grateful for this site and do not want to offend anyone and loose my place here but right now I feel like I have a lot to say.

Bluetraveler, everyone sadly EVERYONE, is entitled to their own opinion. But I feel like you are getting on the ftm boards and pushing your thoughts and opinions at us all. When you offend any of us instead of an apology there seem to be petty insults. Like this:

Quote from: Bluetraveler on November 17, 2010, 12:27:58 PM
That's not a very "manly" thing to do, is it?

He was speaking his mind on a site where he felt safe to do so. As for your comment about

Quote from: Bluetraveler on November 17, 2010, 12:27:58 PM

In FTM forums, many, many people use ridiculous, mechanical and/or childish names for female parts.

You would not be YOU if you didn't have your "junk", even if it's a thing you hate with the fiercest of passions. I accepted my female body but I also have a baby face as well.
Don't hate your body, and remember that scars (but not mastectomy ones) are cool! [/i]

It's a coping thing but how come you come onto a board to tell us that the names we use for our anatomy that makes us uncomfortable are ridiculous or childish? Why do you care? You accepted your female body and realized you're not trans. That's great :) but we are transgender so some of us don't accept our body.

As for the last bit of the quote I found this very important. I feel like this would be something I would see on a hate blog. Those mastectomy scars... They are there and most people aren't happy with the scars (I could be wrong) they are happy with the surgery that left them able to take their shirt off like the man they are.

I say all of this because I've read many posts and... I feel like you are expecting and pushing those who are transgender to think and feel like you when we are not like you. I'm happy as a transgender male, I accept it and it upsets me when people question that, comment on that, or insult that.

Moderators: Feel free to delete this if you deem it a personal attack or offensive. It was not meant that way. Only meant as me speaking my mind.

Quote from: Michael Alexander on November 17, 2010, 08:18:51 PMModerators: Feel free to delete this if you deem it a personal attack or offensive. It was not meant that way. Only meant as me speaking my mind.

I suspect that I'm pushing the envelope a little or getting close to it, but you're a perfect gentleman, Michael. No worries here.

QuoteYour body is NOT JUNK! You may not like it, but it's a valuable thing, even if it "betrayed" you at puberty! Female parts are part of your history, regardless of the fact you like it or not, just like scars and wrinkles are. You would not be YOU if you didn't have your "junk", even if it's a thing you hate with the fiercest of passions. I accepted my female body but I also have a baby face as well. Guess what, I'd LOVE to have a more mature, androgynous looking face, so that I could "pass" as my real age and not get weird looks when I talk complex stuff or I drive, but it's part of me and the solutions to the obstacles I had to overcome for it (in my field especially) are now part of me too. So if I magically changed my face to something more mature and masculine, I'd lose an important part of myself as well.
Don't hate your body, and remember that scars (but not mastectomy ones) are cool!

Blue, you accepted your female body because you are not trans. But we are trans. There is a biological reason that our brains and bodies do not go together, and we can't just snap our fingers and fix it. This is how we were born, and the only thing we have to accept is our identity and the struggles associated with it. We are not obligated to love parts of us that do not align with our minds. Comparing your insecurities about your face to our dysphoria is bordering on insulting. You should be taking this argument to a forum about plastic surgery for vain 20 somethings (not that all plastic surgery is solely for vanity's sake), not to a forum for people whose dysphoria can make them suicidal. Here's the difference: I would love to have a stronger jawline, but I don't need one. The specific shape of my jaw is not engrained in my brain's chemistry from birth, but the existence of one is. But I am not meant to have breasts. Their presence, not an imagined hatred for them, made me suicidal not long after developing them. Because the presence of breasts is NOT part of my brain.

There was research done on a man in India with "reverse phantom-limb syndrome." He believed his left leg below the knee was not meant to exist there. Doctors thought he was crazy until a brain scan was done. While his knee, or any other part of his body was touched, the sensation was registered in a specific part of the brain dedicated to that part. When his lower left leg was touched, nerves registered it, but there was no part in the brain that existed to acknowledge it as part of him. I strongly suspect this phenomenon occurs in transsexuals. Female brains have sections devoted to their breasts, male brains do not and instead have one that is unfilled for a penis. Due to whatever hormonal occurrence in utero, we ended up with the wrong bodies for our brains. Therefore, these parts literally do not belong to us, "us" as in our brains, the core of our consciousness. Do not ask us to accept what we cannot accept. Again, you were able to accept it because you are a female bodied, female brained person. We are not, and you don't seem to understand that despite what experiences you had in the past, you are not the same as us.

Quote from: Nikolai_S on November 17, 2010, 08:25:16 PM
Female brains have sections devoted to their breasts, male brains do not and instead have one that is unfilled for a penis. Due to whatever hormonal occurrence in utero, we ended up with the wrong bodies for our brains. Therefore, these parts literally do not belong to us, "us" as in our brains, the core of our consciousness. Do not ask us to accept what we cannot accept. Again, you were able to accept it because you are a female bodied, female brained person. We are not, and you don't seem to understand that despite what experiences you had in the past, you are not the same as us.

Not to derail my own topic but I've tried to do some research on my own into stuff like this over the years. It seems to me that there definitely are many different things that can happen in utero that change the brain in regards to gender. I really do believe that what psychologists say is just a "mental disorder" is not - that is IS a physical difference in the brain of trans people. Somewhere I remember reading some scientist was trying to do a study on this but basically couldn't prove it because well, the brains had to be dissected to truly prove the differences. I think this scientist did get a few from trans people that had passed and the info they did find was pointing to that. I wish I could remember it because it really isn't very valid if I can't come up with the source and all, but it made a real impression on me when I read it. It was one of several things that helped me not feel like I had a "disorder". The disorder thing just really rubs me the wrong way. Yes, some people I think really do have a "disorder" - like Blue - because she thought she wanted to transition and live her life as a man but apparently it was all just mental issues and she turned out not to be trans ... I guess psychologists would call that "gender identity disorder"? But I don't like to be lumped into the disorder category because much like Nikolai_S I know, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that I was born this way. It wasn't some psychological deviation I developed over time. Of course growing up and interacting as a certain gender and being socialized as a certain gender will shape the way your brain operates, but some things will always stay the same.

When what is going on in your brain really does not match with what is going on with your body, it goes beyond just uncomfortable. It's sometimes downright weird. I've had lucid dreams where my body is an exact match and then I wake up and it feels like one of those movies where they switch bodies! I mean, I look the same outwardly but then I got to take a piss and am all, oh. Actually sometimes I don't even have to have recently been dreaming to think that. Sometimes when people are referring to me as a female, I feel even more detached - like I am playing an acting role or they're talking to the person behind me or a number of other things because it just doesn't match what's in my mind.

ETA

Doh I totally forgot what I originally wanted to say about breasts! Yeah that's like, I look at those and go, huh, that's interesting, what ARE those doing there again? I've been involved in covos (acting the female part) where women are going on and on about their breasts and how great there are and I'm just like, yeah, yours ARE great cause they're attached to you and I like breasts just as much as the next guy! Luckily I stop myself before saying that out loud, but that's what I'm thinking! LOL Which illustrates how totally opposite my mind is. And yes, I realize there are some women (non-trans) who don't like their breasts but they usually don't like them for reasons like they're too small or too big. They usually don't want to lob them off.

Thanks for the mention of Ramachandran. I was having a hard time tracking down the studies that had been conducted on this in particular. The mental body map was what I was referring to in my long-winded way.

Quote from: Kvall on November 17, 2010, 09:30:52 PM
V.S. Ramachandran, who has done a large percentage of the scientific research on phantom limbs and their relationship to neurobiology, has studied this phenomena in trans people as well. He found that trans people have significant phantom body experiences regarding sexual characteristics (no surprise there). He's not exactly eloquent on trans terminology but he's emphasized that we all have a mental body map that covers our entire body and that transsexuals have a body map that matches their internal sex.

Interesting. Of course this makes total sense to me - the mental body map thing. From a very early age I could describe what a nut shot felt like (and have my description confirmed by bio guys) because I actually COULD feel it when I got hit there. No one had an explanation of why that was like that. Hell at points in the past I'd even thought things like maybe I was a guy in my last life and reincarnation really does exist? LOL Really, I've explored logical to outlandish explanations for things and I still end up at the same place - I am how I am and it's normal for me.

Quote from: insideontheoutside on November 17, 2010, 09:15:28 PM
I really do believe that what psychologists say is just a "mental disorder" is not - that is IS a physical difference in the brain of trans people.

My psychologist feels that it is something biological and that isn't a "mental disorder" of any kind.  We had a really good conversation about it the last time I saw her.  She's not a gender therapist, either, but she has experience with transgender patients and has transgender friends.   

@ Kvall:

That's pretty interesting and I think it makes sense, at least in regards to me and how I interact with my own body at times.

Well... I don't give a damn. I have two protruding lumps of tissue on my chest. I don't want to "cherish my inner woman" by calling them "perly mounds crowned with rubies". The same goes for the below-the-belt area.

To me, people in general tend to use silly names for their body parts. My boyfriend has made up what's almost its own laguage of bizarre words for body parts.



...then again, I'm just a young lad, and I've got other issues as well as the trans thing. So I s'ppose that my info is unreliable.

BlueTraveller, can you please share a link to your blog?

Wow, I'm so glad I found this thread. Not because of the original discussion as such (although I'll get to that in a minute), but the derailing was really helpful - it answers so many questions for me. Like - I'm a writer, and in the past I've written a lot of gay romance (mainly between guys). I was writing about their thoughts, feelings and even physical sensations as though I knew what it felt like, even when I had never experienced it myself. I thought it was strange (I hadn't realised I was trans back then); another of those big warning signs, it seems :-\

About the body parts - I refer to the chest as gynecomastia/moobs/etc. because to me, that's what they are. It helps me to feel better, and not be so bothered about binding when lounging around indoors. Downstairs is a different story, though - I HATE that opening with a passion and don't refer to it if I don't need to. When I do, it's just "downstairs, down there", etc. Although with being on T nearly a month now, it feels less female and more like it's meant to feel - junk sounds about right to me now (in the male-slang terms, that is) ^_^

Quote from: Nemo on November 18, 2010, 12:53:04 PM
Wow, I'm so glad I found this thread. Not because of the original discussion as such (although I'll get to that in a minute), but the derailing was really helpful - it answers so many questions for me. Like - I'm a writer, and in the past I've written a lot of gay romance (mainly between guys). I was writing about their thoughts, feelings and even physical sensations as though I knew what it felt like, even when I had never experienced it myself. I thought it was strange (I hadn't realised I was trans back then); another of those big warning signs, it seems :-\

I write male characters - no one that doesn't actually know me has ever questioned my "maleness" after reading my characters. I don't do research. I just write what I know.