Susan's Place Transgender Resources

Hey guys!

Me and my friend Anne are supposed to do a debate on wether children can be transvestites or not.
We googled what it means and we were looking through loads of different communities but we are still not sure what our opinion is.
One of us HAS to be PRO and one of us HAS to be CON. We are having some kind of troubles coming up with arguments for that topic.

We really hope that you can give us some insight into the topic and maybe even some opinions of yours!


Sincerely,

Vanessa and Anne

Think you'll find there are a huge number on here who, as children, knew they had a serious problem and deperately wanted to do something about it.

In my case, I was 4 years old. I certainly tried, whenever I could, to wear female clothing. Sadly, the time and place wasn't right.

I do have to say though, that it really depends upon what you mean. If you mean, do children like dressing up? Yes.

If you mean, do very young children get any sort of erotic thrill from dressing up? Hope not.

If you mean, do very young children know their outward sex and what they know and feel are in conflict? Definately.

Hey!

First of all, thank you very much for replying and sharing your personal experience!

The last part of your answer is definitely what we wanted to know.We want to know if there is something like "crossdressing" or "being a transvestite" among children.
It´s not that we want to know if children like dressing up. We know that most of them do, it´s definitely more about wether children know what situation they are in referring to their actual sex and having the desire to dress up as the opposite. That´s what we want to know.
As we said, the question of our debate is "Can children be transvestites?" and now we are looking for an answer in order to form our PRO and CON statements.

Again, thank you very much! And we certainly hope that there are more answers to come:)

I began very, very early.  However I did not, and do not, consider it a 'serious problem.'  And children can be very erotic in their own way, with themselves and with others, to assume otherwise is to ignore human nature.

I have a question - how do you define a child? - Or transvestite?  Maybe your thesis needs some clarification. 

Quote from: tekla on November 29, 2010, 07:37:14 AM
I began very, very early.

I also began my journey during my pre-pubescent years (late 1950's - early 60's) when I realized just how comfortable and natural I felt in girl's clothes.  I knew I was a "boy" and still wanted to be a boy, but this other part of me was equally valid.  To many, the  term "transvetite" conjures up a sexual or erotic meaning but I didn't even have a clue what "sex" was. 
Consider a couple of girls I went to grade school with - both dressed in jeans and guy's boots instead of dresses as was the "norm" of the day.  Could they have been considered crossdressers?  At the time, the answer would have been "Of course" - but fast forward a decade and beyond, their attire was typical. 
I'm sure you have found several sites where parents or children are "open" about being transgendered (MtF and FTM) and most of them have been aware of their GID since their earliest memories.  Are these young people transvestites?  I say no - they're just adopting the clothing of their psychological being. 

My two cent's worth,
Susan

a sexual or erotic meaning but I didn't even have a clue what "sex" was.

I used the word erotic and not sexual because I think it's much closer (even though in some ways, it's much worse) to what children experience.  It's not sexual, in that it's not defined and centered on the sexual organs performing a sexual function, but on a much more animal-level sense of pleasure at the sensual level - in the universes of the senses - that children do a much better job of living in that adults do. 

You might not have had a clue as to what 'sex' was, but you did know what felt good.  You didn't understand sex, but you were coming to understand yourself, and perhaps others.  That whole area of study is taboo - but sexual and erotic behavior in children (under the age of puberty) is pretty widespread - and that's totally sans adults.

Tekla, your point is well taken and well phrased.  Thank you.

Quote from: tekla on November 29, 2010, 09:06:21 AM
I used the word erotic and not sexual because I think it's much closer (even though in some ways, it's much worse) to what children experience.  It's not sexual, in that it's not defined and centered on the sexual organs performing a sexual function, but on a much more animal-level sense of pleasure at the sensual level - in the universes of the senses - that children do a much better job of living in that adults do. 

Susan

Vanessa and Anne

For my part, at about 4 years, I wanted to play with the girls. I didn't like boys.

I knew my body was wrong. I knew I didn't look like the girls and my clothes were different.

I had no idea of sex, or the details of girls anatomy. I thought breasts were a single lump, a shelf for babies and that girls peed out of their bottoms, because I once saw my older sister sitting down.

I should also say that, at the time, late 50s, I was not permitted to play with the girls.

Now we could annalyse all sorts of things here, depending upon which point we postualte was the start.

We could say that I was just a small boy, lacking decent male role models, lacking self confidence, who sought out the company of girls because they are easier than boys. I then progressed to their clothes and their physical appearance, partly for the same reason, partly as an early stage of physical attraction. Children frequenctly seek to emulate what they admire.

Or we could say that I have female instincts. That I was drawn to girls because of these and something innate inside of me, found my male body distasteful and out of place.

Or anything in between.

To the first point. Seeking out girls since they are easier than boys. Does that mean girls really are weak, inadequate, lesser?

To the second point, the notion of female instincts is, at best, questionable, at worst, specious.

For my part, I prefer to take the position of self expression. Anyone who has ever dealt with young children, even babies under a year old, will know that personal preferences and opinions occur very early. I can't see why anyone shouldn't be permitted to express themselves as they choose. Is there any reason why a little girl can't wear jeans and play sports? Is there any reason why a little boy can't wear a pretty dress and play with dolls?

What, exactly, is the purpose of the gender demarcation, especially in children?

Some people, men, might argue that boys need to be taught to be tough at an early age. Now setting aside the internationally recognised criminal nature of what I'd like to do with these child bullying scum, the claim has no actual basis in fact or experience.

One obvious piece of evidence for this is that many young boys have been raised with brothers, each in an identical way. Subjected to the same nurtring and love, or abuse and neglect. There are ample examples of one boy turning out to be a raging queer with efiminate tendencies while the others develop generally normal hetrosexual realtionships that would raise the blood pressure of most passing femininsts.

So, my own position for what it's worth, is, I don't need to justify anything. I try to live a decent law abiding life. I pay my taxes. I do what I can to contribute to my society.

I see no reason why I or anyone else, cannot exprss myself according to personal preferences

In children at a young age, its more curiosity than anything. I was curious it felt good, it was different until I got caught. I continued, I didn't add the sexual experiance until the age of 12. Now days there are kids at a really young age that admit that they're in the wrong body, here I think "Gender" plays a role. Can kids be trans, I would say yes, if they know their gender is wrong, and that discovery can happen at anytime. 

Quote from: tekla on November 29, 2010, 07:37:14 AM
I began very, very early.  However I did not, and do not, consider it a 'serious problem.'  And children can be very erotic in their own way, with themselves and with others, to assume otherwise is to ignore human nature.

THIS!
I was a highly sexual creature as a child. Probably more so then, than as an adult.
EDIT: However cross dressing did not become part of my sexual exploration until much later in my early teens, I knew I was trans by the age of 9. (I just chose to run from that all my life.)

First of all : Thank you all very much for answering! It´s really interesting to hear/read about all those experiences and opinions! It really helped so far and we were definitely able to wrap our minds a little further around it!

@ Susan: Thank you very much for your response! We would like to answer the following question you asked :

Quote from: Susan Baum on November 29, 2010, 08:52:26 AM
I have a question - how do you define a child? - Or transvestite?  Maybe your thesis needs some clarification. 

How do we define a child? This is a really tough question we had to ask ourselves too. We know that our teacher didn't give us the best thesis here, because "child" is very vague and we also think that one shouldn't do a debate on sexuality and whether there is or isn't transvestism among children.

Anyway, we did a lot of research on what/who is considered a child and we came up with the answer - or better the suggestion- that we would define a child up to the age of 14/15. This is when "children" should be able to make valid decisions etc.
I think our teacher actually meant people that age (up to 14/15) because we wouldn't say that someone older than 15 can still be seen as the childlike child (even though there are, of course, exceptions). (you know what I mean?)

We still have to say that we´re in no way sure about this "age"-definition. There are always exceptions : People acting more mature than they are etc. What would you say? To what age are children children?

As for the term "transvestite" we are not quite sure. Everything that we googled had some classification like "Cross-dressing persons find pleasure in dressing like the opposite sex, still, they don't want to change their real sex.". As far as we understood this is different from being transgender, where people really DO have the feeling of being in the wrong body and desperately wanting to change their real sex into the one desired. How do you define "transvestism"?

Thanks in advance :)

Vanessa and Anne

P.S.: we would really like to hear some more opinions and experiences, if available;) thank you!!

Vanessa and Anne

With your latest post, I now realise that you are seeking views on a specific issue, cross dressing, while excluding transgender.

This is, of course, a perfectly acceptable defination. However, I assumed you were referring to cross dressing in children, to include those who seek to changer their gender. I now realise you are not looking at this latter group at all.

I am transgender. I have not managed to do anything significant about it, other than to develop mental and thinking stratagies to deal with it.

When I was a child, I was transgender. But those around me, who knew, tended to think of me as a cross dresser. I was dragged around various medical and such institutions. Labels tended to cycle between being sick, evil, possessed, worthless, coward.

I do apologis for misunderstanding you here. I realise that the information you are seeking is completely different.

best of luck.

@spacial:

Oh, that's okay:) We are actually very thankful for your posts! They helped a lot, even though they are regarding transgender!

We are really grateful for the fact that you guys are really trying to help and that you share your experiences with us! It's is really nice to see that this is an open community and that's great.
In an other community they deleted our post, which is actually kinda sad because we ARE interested in the topic, otherwise we wouldn't have chosen it!

Again, thank all of you very very much!

Sincerely,

Vanessa and Anne

Vanessa and Anne - Thank for your interest and honesty towards and with all of us here - we are all real people and we do respond in kind. 

Since you broadened "child" to include younger teens, I think you would find a fair number of us started crossdressing within that age group and I would answer your premise with a resounding yes.  

As I wrote,  I began my journey during my pre-teen years and it became more defined as I entered my early teens.  My first semi-public outing was when I was about 12 - my sister and I went to a Halloween party in matching witch dresses.  I "knew" long before then that society called it "wrong" but...   I decline to answer about my maturity however I still like to splash water puddles... 

Quote from: JoanneTV on November 29, 2010, 11:20:44 AM
In children at a young age, its more curiosity than anything. I was curious it felt good, it was different until I got caught. I continued...

Curiosity had to have been a factor and it DID feel good but I was fortunate in that my mother did not become hysterical when I got caught (my father was a different story altogether) but quietly bought me a some better fitting panties and stashed them in my underwear drawer.  (My sister was upset because I had worn her's.)  I acquired more clothes as time passed and I moved into my later teens but was still closeted to the rest of the world - the place, for the most part,  I continue to reside.   

I will also concur with your general definition for transvestite because it fits me to a "T."  (No, I'm not sorry.  What was I saying about maturity?)  We all understand the pitfalls of broad generalizations and some could quibble and nibble at it but it is generally accurate and manages to avoid less-than-family-friendly connotations. 

More questions - just ask.  Please us posted on how the debate goes or progresses.
Susan

(Edit: add forgotten comment SB)

Hey guys :)

We just wanted to tell you Merry Christmas!! And wanted to inform you that the debate went really well (got an A on it:) ), we want to thank all of you for your support and your help and especially for sharing all your personal experiences with us!!

We wish you and all your loved ones a Merry Christmas and wonderful christmas holidays!

Sincerely,

Vanessa and Anne

Thank you Vanessa and Anne for getting back. So plesd that we were able to give you some information.

Really hope you both have a wondeful time as well

I would like to know what kind of school would even contemplate to have a debate about whether children can be transvestites? Sounds bogus to me.  :-\

Transvestite is one who derives sexual pleasure from dressing in clothes of opposite sex.  :-\ 

The debate, if it actually happened, was definitely crossing the line.   

To put our heads in the sand and pretend that children do not have sexual feelings and ideas is silly. It may be an uncomfortable topic for some but in the class room setting in the right field of study it is apropriate.

Quote from: cynthialee on December 25, 2010, 07:28:19 PM
To put our heads in the sand and pretend that children do not have sexual feelings and ideas is silly. It may be an uncomfortable topic for some but in the class room setting in the right field of study it is apropriate.

Absolutely agree.

Though I recall, in 1985, being told by a very famous and distinguished child psychiatrist, who at the time was in her 70s, that young boys don't get errections, that children don't masturbate before pubitry and prior to pubitry, any  thoughts children may have about sex are no more than curiosity and about as valid as those a blind person might have on colour.

It was put a little less forcefully, to be fair, but that is what it all amounted to.

Quote from: cynthialee on December 25, 2010, 07:28:19 PM
To put our heads in the sand and pretend that children do not have sexual feelings and ideas is silly. It may be an uncomfortable topic for some but in the class room setting in the right field of study it is apropriate.

I beg to differ. It's silly to call any child a transvestite.

Quote from: spacial on December 26, 2010, 04:00:30 AM
Absolutely agree.

Though I recall, in 1985, being told by a very famous and distinguished child psychiatrist, who at the time was in her 70s, that young boys don't get errections, that children don't masturbate before pubitry and prior to pubitry, any  thoughts children may have about sex are no more than curiosity and about as valid as those a blind person might have on colour.

It was put a little less forcefully, to be fair, but that is what it all amounted to.

And you know the mind of other children? You can account for your own childhood, not others.

Quote from: Hermione01 on December 26, 2010, 04:44:48 AM
And you know the mind of other children? You can account for your own childhood, not others.

Possibly. But that suggests I was particularly unusual.

Given the numbers of people who recall similar notions to myself, that means there are quite a lot of unusual people. Now when thre are quite a lot of unusual people, it stops being unusual.

Perhaps there are just those of us who are socially, genetically and generally superior and those that are not.

Which kinda accounts for our long held belief that we are special.  :laugh:

The rest can line up to bow.

Quote from: spacial on December 26, 2010, 06:32:01 AM
Possibly. But that suggests I was particularly unusual.

Given the numbers of people who recall similar notions to myself, that means there are quite a lot of unusual people. Now when thre are quite a lot of unusual people, it stops being unusual.

Perhaps there are just those of us who are socially, genetically and generally superior and those that are not.

Which kinda accounts for our long held belief that we are special.  :laugh:

The rest can line up to bow.

Just as I thought.  :laugh:

Scuse me for dragging out old horses constantly..  But being one myself they are the only ones that will play ;) Well ok, more that I am new here, New to my acceptance and mindchange (read: cocoon - butterfly or moth, maybe more appropriate)..

My view is that a child/all children have innocent minds, they do not think about clothing male or female being right or wrong, they experiment, they emulate.. during which they discover 'comfort'... physical and or mental...
So if a boy finds comfort in girls clothes or vice versa it is not a sexual or arrousal thing.. at least maybe not until 'adult taboo' sets in...
How many teens started smoking or drinking because it was not allowed?!
We are all born and live innocent for the first part of our lives... So why is it that we lose it, why is it that we end up instilling rules we once knew not, disliked when we learnt them on our own young?! (society as a whole not speaking for or about anyone here)

Being innocent and accepting of anything new and strange is exciting, why give it up and why make others give it up?!

No children can not be transvestites... They are only just developing a sense of gender, labels at this point have no meaning...

I..

Children, adults, seniors, household pets. They can all be transvestite (cross-dresser definition). Without trying. Since the label is defined and applied by others, not by the children, adults, seniors, pets, etc. If they could find a time-travel machine, they could change being transvestite to not being transvestite all day long just by picking one way of dressing, and then hopping back and forth in time without changing location.

As for choosing to label themselves, I would dearly love to think only those around them can even give children the idea of doing such a thing. And they shouldn't.

As a topic for public school, this unnerves me.

Bowing now...

I so did not understand the timetravel bit..  ???

As for the labeling, I do agree, but then I also think that (specially) young children don't put much value in 'labels'..
A child may play with any other child, and not care or even 'see' a difference of sex, race or religion etc.. Not until someone else teaches them there is a difference... If us adults stopped that teaching (preaching) then perhaps there would be more equality and acceptance..

Interesting thought though, If we woke up tomorrow, and all clothing was suddenly unisex, sold as such, labelled as such (or not labelled at all), worn as such...
How many CD's would lose interest in CD for what ever reason, and how many non CDers would start wearing something currently labelled as fem wear?!

I..

Quote from: Iskandra on May 19, 2011, 03:12:38 AM
I so did not understand the timetravel bit..  ???

As for the labeling, I do agree, but then I also think that (specially) young children don't put much value in 'labels'..
A child may play with any other child, and not care or even 'see' a difference of sex, race or religion etc.. Not until someone else teaches them there is a difference... If us adults stopped that teaching (preaching) then perhaps there would be more equality and acceptance..

Interesting thought though, If we woke up tomorrow, and all clothing was suddenly unisex, sold as such, labelled as such (or not labelled at all), worn as such...
How many CD's would lose interest in CD for what ever reason, and how many non CDers would start wearing something currently labelled as fem wear?!

I..

They would wear period clothing of the pre androgyny days.

It depends on the definition pf transvestite. Some psychologists consider transvestism a fetish. If so then a child can not be a transvestite. However, children do crossdress. Many us of started in early childhood.

Writer Ernest Hemmingway while a young boy wore a dress. In that era among certain parts of society is was common to dress a young boy in a dress. You can look up Hemmingway on the net and find a photo of a cute little girl. I doubt anyone questioned transvestism.

Quote from: Genevieve Swann on June 21, 2011, 06:29:06 AM
Writer Ernest Hemmingway while a young boy wore a dress. In that era among certain parts of society is was common to dress a young boy in a dress. You can look up Hemmingway on the net and find a photo of a cute little girl. I doubt anyone questioned transvestism.

some still do this today. i have a friend whose little brother was dressed more like a girl and had long hair. but that only lasted till he cut his hair on his own. the family are catholics, but never considered this "transvestism". it's just a matter of practicality and tradition

Quote from: Hermione01 on December 25, 2010, 07:09:13 PM
I would like to know what kind of school would even contemplate to have a debate about whether children can be transvestites? Sounds bogus to me.  :-\

Transvestite is one who derives sexual pleasure from dressing in clothes of opposite sex.  :-\ 

The debate, if it actually happened, was definitely crossing the line.

Actually the term is "fetichisti transvesitsm" and it is not part of GID, it is a paraphilia. By defention cannot happen until a person reaches sexual maturity, and thus does not apply to children who cross dress.

Children who cross dress are usually diagnosed as having GID. Most but noty all TS cross-dressed as children.

Kate D

Quote from: kate durcal on June 22, 2011, 06:59:13 PM
Children who cross dress are usually diagnosed as having GID.

i'm not too sure about this. my experience in childhood says that most children who cross dress are playing. those who continue to (want to) cross dress when the other children stop doing so should be the ones who might turn out to have gid

my own daughter insisted on being a boy for about three weeks when she was 3-4 years old. this was around the time she became aware of gender roles, and she also stopped occasionally calling me daddy because she realized all other kids' dads were men (her own dad wasn't around when she was little). i've a feeling the only reason she wanted to be a boy was that kids at a certain age start sometimes refusing kids of the other sex to play with them. the "only boys can be pirates" and "only girls play with dolls" type of thing. my kid stopped cross dressing when she figured it was more important for her to look cute and wear the pink skirts and dresses she'd always loved, than to be able to play pirate with the boys whenever she wanted to

Quote from: cynthialee on November 29, 2010, 12:38:07 PM
THIS!
I was a highly sexual creature as a child. Probably more so then, than as an adult.
EDIT: However cross dressing did not become part of my sexual exploration until much later in my early teens, I knew I was trans by the age of 9. (I just chose to run from that all my life.)

Really?? That's actually interesting. What age group? I guess anywhere from 10-12 makes sense but I can't imagine being any younger?

I always hung out with the boys but never dressed in boy clothes since I didn't have a brother or any access to them. I remember complaining to my mom as early as 4 that I wanted to be a boy though. I only wore what was handed down to me and didn't start dressing in men's clothes until I was 13. I can't say that it was a sexual thrill, but it was a relief to feel right in them. I wouldn't connect it to anything sexual.

Quote from: Da Monkey on June 23, 2011, 06:32:57 AM
Really?? That's actually interesting. What age group? I guess anywhere from 10-12 makes sense but I can't imagine being any younger?

I always hung out with the boys but never dressed in boy clothes since I didn't have a brother or any access to them. I remember complaining to my mom as early as 4 that I wanted to be a boy though. I only wore what was handed down to me and didn't start dressing in men's clothes until I was 13. I can't say that it was a sexual thrill, but it was a relief to feel right in them. I wouldn't connect it to anything sexual.

Like others, I am naturally cautious about any discussion involving children and sexuality. But I too was precociously sexual. Much younger than 10 or 12.

If you and anyone would like to continue further with this interesting aspect/perspective, we should all be aware of the need for restraint and very careful wording.

I always thought a transvestite to be a male who dresses as a woman and hangs out on street corners around 2am trying to pick up drunk men for sex? 

However, after starting to transition in Phila i saw young black trans walking the streets selling themselves but then they didn't seem to be transvestites. They were doing it for money to be able to transition to female.

so no you have to be an adult male who tries to trick drunk men after 2am well maybe earlier too  ;D

we should all be aware of the need for restraint and very careful wording.

Perhaps, but that restrain and 'careful wording' is why so many people have such vast misunderstandings about the topic.

I became sexualy active around 5 or 6 and around 8 it really dawned on me what we were doing and I became a perv until my mid 30's.
I had cross dressed many times as a child starting around age 4(?). Adding cross dressing to sexual exploration was a short lived thing when I started to develop sexual fantasies in my early teens. (and a handful of times in my mid thirties) I found it to be too frustrating to cross dress and be sexual. The reality of my actual body configuration would become inescapable, no amount of dress up could mitigate my physical reality. (I abandoned that activity and primarily saved cross dressing for personal private time, mostly just to see if I looked cute or too escape being male on occasion.) As a result I buried myself in male sexuality and basicaly tried to screw myself into manhood. I figured that being sexualy active and being with many partners would somehow verify my manlieness and all that silly crap that comes with masculinity. I tried to f*** myself into manhood.
Turns out you can't make a man out of a woman no matter how many people you have sex with.

back on track....
I do not see how a child would be imune from a diagnosis of transvestic fetishism if the child actively engageing in sexual cross dressing. Kittens are still cats.

Quote from: cynthialee on June 23, 2011, 02:43:27 PM
I do not see how a child would be imune from a diagnosis of transvestic fetishism if the child actively engageing in sexual cross dressing. Kittens are still cats.

can't really argue on that. i myself started waking up to one of my weirdest fetishes when i was very young, don't remember the age but at least it was less than eight. i didn't relate it to anything sexual at the time, but i probably would have recognized it for what it is much earlier if i'd only met more people with cool scars when i was a kid..

the only sexual activity i was involved in as a kid was some experimenting with oral sex when i was 4-5 years old. one of the boys in the neighborhood had learned the theory of ">-bleeped-<ing" as he called it from his older brother. i didn't think much of it, totally missed the whole point about pleasure, and only became sexually aware after hitting puberty at age 10

I am very uncofortable with some of the posting in this thread.

Some evil people may get a hold of them, take them out of contest and claim "you see TG/TS sponsoring pedophilia.

Personally I strongly disagre with ascrbing sexuality to children.

I strongly suggest this thread be deleted immidiatly.

Kate D

[edited by Padma to remove unsupported and inflammatory statement]

I think this is another of those discussions that inevitably revolve around people's differing definitions of the same term - "transvestite" in this case (and different health practitioners' definitions of the same term, too, since there's no "official" definition that's globally accepted). It seems possible for "transvestite" to mean a number of widely different things to different people, so please take this into account before telling anyone "you're wrong, it's not that, it's this".

It also seems clear from people's experiences in this discussion that dressing in "the clothes of the opposite gender" can have quite differing significance from one child to the next, so it's not possible to make big generalisations and simply say "children do this because of that" unless "that" is a very long list of options :).

I question the use of the term "transvestite".  Crossdressing might be one thing, but by my understanding of the term TV my answer would be No and to suggest otherwise makes me question your intent.

We need to be very careful how we treat a thread talking about young children.  It would be easy to misinterpret our statements.

What class/teacher would even suggest the topic?  Is this something you came up with yourself?  If so I suggest you look for something else to debate.

I just reread this topic.
Not a single person advocated anything illeagal or immoral.
The discussion has been bassed primarily on conjecture and the experiances of those with first hand knowledge of the topic.

Can this topic come back and bite us in the ass?
Yes. (Not likely though. No one has taken a position that advocates anything illeagal.)

Is that a reason to completely avoid a topic?
No.

Just because a topic makes you squeemish or it seems uncooth to talk about does not delegitimize the discussion.
We have maintained the conversation with dignity and with a minimal amount of negative input.

Back on topic:
Children are capable of a myriad of human states of being. Sexuality does not mysticaly become evident in a person on their 18th birthday. Sexuality starts developing in a person at a very young age. If children are capable of sexual thoughts and feelings.... It just stands to reason that some children might be drawn to a transvestic sexual expression.

Quote from: kate durcal on June 23, 2011, 06:47:18 PM
I am very uncofortable with some of the posting in this thread.

Some evil people may get a hold of them, take them out of contest and claim "you see TG/TS sponsoring pedophilia.

Personally I strongly disagre with ascrbing sexuality to children.

I strongly suggest this thread be deleted immidiatly.

Kate D

[edited by Padma to remove unsupported and inflammatory statement]

Could you please PM the "unsupported and inflmatory statment" so I can learn from my mistake?

Thanks!

Kate D

Kate, I've pm'd you - and I may have misunderstood your statement, so if I did, I apologise.

I understand your concern about outsiders' reinterpretation of this thread, but I think it's harmless enough, it is just an exploration of a question being asked, and mainly people responding with their own experiences.

Personally, I believe that children do have a sexuality, but that it's very different from an adult (or adolescent) sexuality. I think it's important to acknowledge its existence, and its difference too, and to honour it as something that belongs to the child, and never to an adult.

Quote from: Padma on June 23, 2011, 07:18:36 PM
Kate, I've pm'd you - and I may have misunderstood your statement, so if I did, I apologise.

I understand your concern about outsiders' reinterpretation of this thread, but I think it's harmless enough, it is just an exploration of a question being asked, and mainly people responding with their own experiences.

Personally, I believe that children do have a sexuality, but that it's very different from an adult (or adolescent) sexuality. I think it's important to acknowledge its existence, and its difference too, and to honour it as something that belongs to the child, and never to an adult.

YES!!!

That statement brought a tear to my eye.

My own view is that childhood is when so many of our adult expectations, disappointments and problem can start. As an adult, for example, we can learn a new experience and seek to expand upon it. As a child this is often not so simple.

Moreover, what can be simple yet positive curiosity in child hood, can so easily lead to neurosis in adulthood when handled badly.

Yet so many people experience life long problems because of the frustrations they have with resolving their childhood experiences. I for example, began to see my very being as something to fear and condem, this later turned to resentment toward those around me, all as a result of the reaction I received, as a child. I know many others will say the same.

But sadly, there are very real differences in the way many people perceive children. I have spoken to child psychiatrists, not to mention social workers and activists, who adamantly maintain that children, especially pre-pubescent, have no awareness of sexuality.

I have spoken to numerous adult women, who I knew as little girls, who have maintained the same thing, even though I recall having to deal with some of their precociousness.

Many, I also know, seek to attack any such notions, largely out of their own insecurities. 'They doth protest too much' has not yet dawned on them.

I am certainly not suggesting, in any way, that we shouldn't discuss these issues. They are important to us all and one of the glaring absenses from these pages. I'm simply suggesting we should be careful with our wording.

I, for example, have said previously, on a number of occasions, that I was sexually abused as a child. I don't really recall the details. I was certainly not physically hurt, as most children who suffer sexual abuse are not. I have said that this caused enormous long term consequences, as it almost certainly does for most children. But I am unable and unwilling, on any public place to describe, in any manner, what those consequences are. This is simply because I do not want myself, nor my dear friends here, to be labled as promoting, in any manner, what some might claim to be a positive image of child sexual abuse.

Child sexual activity is wrong. This is a fundimental principal in most societies and I believe, the right one. (And I deeply resent the necessity of having to add that last comment. But it does demonstrate how utterly stupid and circular, the whole issue has become).

Quote from: spacial on June 24, 2011, 04:37:21 AM
Child sexual activity is wrong. This is a fundimental principal in most societies and I believe, the right one. (And I deeply resent the necessity of having to add that last comment. But it does demonstrate how utterly stupid and circular, the whole issue has become).

now i just have to ask you, what exactly do you mean by "child sexual activity"? if it's something taught by an adult or older child, then it is definitely not right. but what if it's something the child happened to learn on it's own, like masturbation?

i think it's dangerous to not talk about children and sexuality. one thing is that adults refusing to recognize children as possible sexual beings may come to the wrong conclusions and brand a little girl "mentally ill" just because they see her masturbating. or they may think someone has been abusing her, and make loving parents into criminals

another thing is that if you can't speak to kids about anything regarding sexuality, you'll have big problems finding out about sexual abuse. if you can't talk about touching people's butts in front of a child because it's "not suitable", then the child isn't likely to tell if this happens to it

You make some good points explorer.

Sadly, we live in an age where certain things are very difficult to discuss, especially when it may involve challanging established doctrine.

I recall, up until the 70s, to even suggest that children and sexuality existed almost invariably ended up with, at least someone saying, 'Are you talking aboout it because you want to do it?'. Even in 1984, when I was taking a class on the origins of mental illness, exclusive to mental health professionals, I raised the subject of sexual abuse and was met with this very response. (Not for the first time, nor the last).

So, for certain subjects, some of us have learnt to add a standard discalmer. I detest child abuse. I am not a racist. Hitler was history's worst criminal. I support Israel. I'm sure 9/11 actually happened. The colonies were a bad thing. America is to be admired. And so on.

The problem with listing them is that it tends to leave you open to suggestions of paranoia. (But just because you're paranoid, doesn't mean they're not out to get you!).

Quote from: spacial on June 24, 2011, 08:03:31 AM
America is to be admired

Now, here is one we can all agree  >:-)

Love,

Kate D

i think being that i myself am very young i think children do know what they are doing. i babysit my cousins and my one cousin who was about 7 loved to wear dresses and such and his brother who was 5 would make fun of him saying only girls wore all of that and that he was a fag and everything in that sort. for a while the older one would cry about it than after a bit he finally just said i like dressing like this it feels right. so yes i think kids know. growing up i was always more comfortable in basketball shorts and a t shirt or no shirt, i hung out with all guys and hated all the girls that where near me, hated anyone that assioated me as a female.
the only thing about children being it is that parents can force their children to wear what they want, so if a parent doesnt like their child wearing clothes of the oppisite sex they change that really fast, or if lets say a boy has all sisters the sisters could treat him like another sister and he would just think that thats how he should act if he doesnt know a boy "doesnt" wear a dress. so i guess it goes both ways.

Quote from: kate durcal on June 24, 2011, 01:15:35 PM
Now, here is one we can all agree  >:-)

Love,

Kate D

I really don't want to hijack this great thead. But I would like to add that I do, honestly agree with each comment. I just resent the need to make them and lack the guts not to.  :laugh:

ajborelli

Thank you for that breif description of the experiences of your cousin. It really is sad, and not a little disturbing that a 5 year old should call his brother a fag. Though I'm certain many of us have had not dissimilar experiences.

You didn't say how old the wee mite is now, but can you say something about how he is coping now and how his family are dealing with him?

he is 11 now and he still like girl things, but he has a lot of brothers and they got on him a lot about things and than he was around me a lot and i was always more into boy things and i was really the only girl in his life so he kind of just adapted to acting like me. which now that i think about it i hate, i wish he was still the little boy who ran around in dresses and wands and called himself a fairy. i had a talk with him a little bit ago about me shaving my head and he asked why i did it if im going to look like a boy if i am a girl and i said because maybe loooking like a boy is what i want to do and in order to really make it in this world you have to make yourself happy before you can help anyone else happy. he just looked at me and said love yourself so others can love you as well and i said exactly and he said i dont love myself anymore i lost who i was, so why do you still love me? and i said no matter what happens to you no matter what you choose i willl love you, dont let anyone tell you you cant be something or do something, unless it is the cops or the law, be who you are, and ill stand up for you. he said thanks and asked if i would play barbies with him i laughed and said barbies are for girls im gonig to play football like a real man and he said im going to play barbies like a lady should.

Quote from: ajborelli on June 24, 2011, 01:54:43 PM
he is 11 now and he still like girl things, but he has a lot of brothers and they got on him a lot about things and than he was around me a lot and i was always more into boy things and i was really the only girl in his life so he kind of just adapted to acting like me. which now that i think about it i hate, i wish he was still the little boy who ran around in dresses and wands and called himself a fairy. i had a talk with him a little bit ago about me shaving my head and he asked why i did it if im going to look like a boy if i am a girl and i said because maybe loooking like a boy is what i want to do and in order to really make it in this world you have to make yourself happy before you can help anyone else happy. he just looked at me and said love yourself so others can love you as well and i said exactly and he said i dont love myself anymore i lost who i was, so why do you still love me? and i said no matter what happens to you no matter what you choose i willl love you, dont let anyone tell you you cant be something or do something, unless it is the cops or the law, be who you are, and ill stand up for you. he said thanks and asked if i would play barbies with him i laughed and said barbies are for girls im gonig to play football like a real man and he said im going to play barbies like a lady should.

I need a tissue. You made me cry.
:icon_hug:

Quote from: ajborelli on June 24, 2011, 01:54:43 PM
he is 11 now and he still like girl things, but he has a lot of brothers and they got on him a lot about things and than he was around me a lot and i was always more into boy things and i was really the only girl in his life so he kind of just adapted to acting like me. which now that i think about it i hate, i wish he was still the little boy who ran around in dresses and wands and called himself a fairy. i had a talk with him a little bit ago about me shaving my head and he asked why i did it if im going to look like a boy if i am a girl and i said because maybe loooking like a boy is what i want to do and in order to really make it in this world you have to make yourself happy before you can help anyone else happy. he just looked at me and said love yourself so others can love you as well and i said exactly and he said i dont love myself anymore i lost who i was, so why do you still love me? and i said no matter what happens to you no matter what you choose i willl love you, dont let anyone tell you you cant be something or do something, unless it is the cops or the law, be who you are, and ill stand up for you. he said thanks and asked if i would play barbies with him i laughed and said barbies are for girls im gonig to play football like a real man and he said im going to play barbies like a lady should.

I am really pleased that little child has the loving support they deserve and need. I am also in admiration of you for putting yourself out to stand up for them.

Thank you so much for telling us this. When the child is older, please give them our best wishes. Tell them, they are not alone.

Quote from: ajborelli on June 24, 2011, 01:54:43 PM
he is 11 now and he still like girl things, but he has a lot of brothers and they got on him a lot about things and than he was around me a lot and i was always more into boy things and i was really the only girl in his life so he kind of just adapted to acting like me. which now that i think about it i hate, i wish he was still the little boy who ran around in dresses and wands and called himself a fairy. i had a talk with him a little bit ago about me shaving my head and he asked why i did it if im going to look like a boy if i am a girl and i said because maybe loooking like a boy is what i want to do and in order to really make it in this world you have to make yourself happy before you can help anyone else happy. he just looked at me and said love yourself so others can love you as well and i said exactly and he said i dont love myself anymore i lost who i was, so why do you still love me? and i said no matter what happens to you no matter what you choose i willl love you, dont let anyone tell you you cant be something or do something, unless it is the cops or the law, be who you are, and ill stand up for you. he said thanks and asked if i would play barbies with him i laughed and said barbies are for girls im gonig to play football like a real man and he said im going to play barbies like a lady should.

that's just great. the world need more people like you

on another note, i'm really jealous of you. only answer i can give my daughter when she wants to play barbies with me is that i'm not a girl so i don't know how to do it. even if i'd love to play with cars i'm not too sure about me being a man, so i can't give that as a reason

Only girls play with barbies and boys play with cars?

I played with barbies and dressed them up as a child and it didn't make me any less of a man or any more of a woman.

i played barbies only with other girls, and that one girly boy in my sister's class. my problem is that i don't remember how to do it any more, i like cars, lego, climbing trees, those kinds of things. but my daughter never wants to, she's a very typical girl, got it from her father

Quote from: explorer on June 25, 2011, 05:05:01 AM
i played barbies only with other girls, and that one girly boy in my sister's class. my problem is that i don't remember how to do it any more, i like cars, lego, climbing trees, those kinds of things. but my daughter never wants to, she's a very typical girl, got it from her father

children love when you ask them to teach you how to play games they love. so ask her to show you how to play with barbie and go along with it. there is no need to love playing with them just the love for playing with your daughter

The short answer again is Y. E. S. !!!!!!!!!! Heck, I started at I guess age five . I knew I hated the thought of my male parts . I was jealous of the girls down the street as they payed  "Dress- Up " all the time . I wanted to participate in those activities too. I did , I would dive into my mothers stuff and parade about in private . I then hadthe chore of trying to put everything back, just as I found it too. I continued on into my teenage years feeling weird as I had no idea that there was a secret world of T G people out there . In 1970, I got to meet Ms Christiene Jorgensen , there , I slowly began a slow journey........... ellen