Susan's Place Transgender Resources

My parents insist it is a sin....and everytime I bring up my transsness I hear over and over again how I am going to hell and going down the wrong path.  How can I respond to that?

It is obviously difficult when it is your parents. However I have a low tolerance for fools and religious bigots so I ignore them. In your case I would plan your life to start living it as you wish and if that means without the acceptance of your parents then that is the consequence..

Sorry

Cindy

By asking them if any other surgical procedure is a sin.

So, you've already come out to them? I'd say you've already taken a big step.

QuoteSo, you've already come out to them? I'd say you've already taken a big step.

Thanks  :) 


Yes I have come out to them...obviously they are not  taking it well lol.

Quote from: Alex201 on December 08, 2010, 02:09:28 AM
Thanks  :) 


Yes I have come out to them...obviously they are not  taking it well lol.

Well, you're still pretty young and they still have high hopes lol. I was lucky. It was actually seen as an improvement.  :laugh:

I'm taking it that they're pretty religious. They have all these years of hearing that homosexuality is a sin. And by extension, transsexuality. Sometimes explaining the difference helps.

Well,  here are some options, whatever you do don't argue scripture, never works on these people,

I would say something like this

"ok, but I still love you despite how you feel about me. I appreciate your concern but hell is my choice and it does not reflect badly on you, but it will be a certainty if you reject or ostracise's me. My sin is between me and god and is not for you to judge. At the same time you can go on about it to me, but it won't change who I am. All the science in the world points to me not having a real choice in this despite you not understanding why. I understand you are scared and you fear what I am, but I am scared too. Does it make you feel better calling me a sinner, do you honestly think saying that will change me or is it going to make me grow to resent you and hate you? Are you doing this out of love and compassion, or out of fear and anger?  think about it, cause I am not the one yelling here foaming at the mouth"

Alternatively, and my personal favorite (but not a smart move if you are dependent) is just say "F ck off, blame your own twisted genetics for putting this curse on me" And leave it at that.

or
"why would it be a sin? Are you saying god made a mistake in making me trans, surely that is between me and god?"

or
"I don't believe in your god, why would I care? Your fictitious creator has no baring on my life"

or
"I'm sorry you feel this way, but I am in a lot of pain, being transgendered causes me a lot of pain. Please don't add to it by calling me a sinner. Yes it is scary for you, but it is also freaking scary for me too, I feel like I am going to lose my family here"

or
"your concerns are noted, pass the peas"


It might just be a case of head down, stay below the radar, work to get yourself out of there, then do what you like. Sometimes arguing with this sort of thing gets you nowhere. Have an escape plan.

I have had this conversation - although not with my parents. I told the people concerned three things

1. "That same bible also tells us that for a mere human to judge others is also a sin. In the bible God clearly states that it is for him and him alone to decide who has and has not sinned."

2. "IF God chooses to convict me of sin I am sure he will do so fairly and after due consideration of ALL the circumstances. That I will accept. What I will NOT accept is being pre-judged by human beings who simply can not know everything, and as far as I am aware are NOT infallible."

2. "IF such a place as Hell exists, which I doubt, then as, according to your theory, most of my friends will be there and most of the people in heaven will be people with whom I have nothing in common I would rather be with my friends in hell than with a bunch of self righteous boring old farts in heaven. At least with my friends around me I have some chance to make a better existence, but surrounded for eternity by a load of self opinionated ignorant people who don't know half as much as they think and can't be bothered to TRY and understand me I have no chance... so for me your Heaven would be my Hell."

You might want to edit that last bit a little but you get the gist! ;D Having at one point in my life been a lay preacher I am a bit inclined to give people, who misuse faith and scripture in that way, both barrels. Religion is too important to allow others to get away with using it as a tool to bully people. That's not being christian, its being a grad one pharisee and such people deserve to be exposed. :laugh:

I would not act in a way that would give them any more ammunition.  Don't be confrontational.  Let them think this out and see how shallow their own thinking is.  Just ask them some intelligent questions, such as:

-Why is it a sin to have corrective surgery for this, but not for any other birth defects?

-Why do you feel living as the person God made me to be undermines the salvation God gave me?

-This is so painful to me.  Doesn't the Bible teach that we are to bear one another's burdens?

I wish you the very best of luck!

I have an approach to godly types which starts this way....  :P

Which God are we exactly talking about?

I mean there's just so many deity's out there....

So let's see.... shall we start with... Sahasranama – there are thousands to consider with this religion....lol Shiva....perhaps?

She might like the convert to femaleness with her zelots...

Then there are the Greek ones... Apollo, Athena, Pan, Zeus,

Or perhaps you're offending Odin...?

What if its Egyptian 'this almighty being'.. in which case....Aken, Heryshaf and Qetesh amongst many, many others can be in the frame.... maybe its the main man Ra you've pi##ed orf?

And according to Islam.... (the true religion after all).... it would have to be Alla you've upset?

Or maybe it should be Yahweh?

Even Neptune, or is it Poseidon if you worship deities of the sea....?

You see how darn confusing this whole God thing is....  >:-)

So I guess you should ask them exactly 'which' God it is that you're offending.

And are they really sure they have the 'right' one, as over the centuries it's quite clear to me.... there are simply just so many to pick from....

And perhaps a better answer is that your God says its okay.... cause when you prayed and asked her she said so....

Have they ever gotten a hair cut? "Do not cut the hair at the sides of your head or clip off the edges of your beard." (Leviticus 19:27)

Do they eat pork? "...and the swine, though it divides the hoof, having cloven hooves, yet does not chew the cud, is unclean to you." (Leviticus 11:7)

Do they wear two kinds of cloth materials? "...do not plant your field with two kinds of seed. Do not wear material woven of two kinds of material." (Leviticus 19:19)

Do they eat shrimp and lobster? "But all in the seas or in the rivers that do not have fins and scales, all that move in the water or any living thing which is in the water, they are an abomination to you." (Leviticus 11:10)

"They (shellfish) shall be an abomination to you; you shall not eat their flesh, but you shall regard their carcasses as an abomination." (Leviticus 11:11)

"Whatever in the water does not have fins or scales; that shall be an abomination to you." (Leviticus 11:12)


If they say those laws don't apply anymore, ask them if they believe homosexuality is a sin because it's in Leviticus as well.  And where in the bible does it say it's a sin to get a sex change? Ask them to show you what verse and I'm sure they won't be able to find one. The only verse in the bible that is remotely close to "sex changes" is the verse about eunuchs, "For there are some eunuchs, which were so born from [their] mother's womb: and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake. He that is able to receive [it], let him receive [it]."


To me, this isn't about faith. They're using it as an excuse to not talk about it with you. They need to work out their feelings and they need to be educated.

Say: God is love and love is God so we try to find a resting place for God / Love in our heart  .. I love you Mom!

That is absolutely horrible for them to say that! I personally am atheist but I don't can't fathom the idea that a god of any sort would be so vindictive as to keep part of you alive after death (soul?) just so you can be tortured for eternity or until your soul has been cleansed by fire. If that were the case, I'd have to say their god is a real A-hole.

For Christianity, hell is an idea that has been added onto over the years and really isn't mentioned in the bible. Modern ideas of hell come more from Dante's Infero and other fictional literature to which religionist have latched onto in order to use HELL as a tool of FEAR. I have always been appaled to hear children be told that if they don't follow the religion that they are being brainwashed to belive in, that their bodies and soals will roast in the fires off hell for eternity if they don't follow the "rules". It's siply child abuse as far as I'm concerned to say that to a child. I'll stop now as I get very angry jsut thinking about this.   >:(

SImply say...."prove it".

It might be childish and sound flippant, but I just say "Whatever" and walk away.

You tell them that God forgives sin.

Quote from: Sarah Louise on December 08, 2010, 09:15:20 AM
You tell them that God forgives sin.

WIN!

I used to be a Christian, but am not at all in any matter. But, I thought I might pop in and say a few things Alex... "Let the who has not sin cast the first stone." Isn't that a central dogma of the new testament, it is what Jesus said after all? Or, "Do not judge or you too will be judged" (Matthew 7:1).  You could also argue them from the angle of talking about god, rather than telling them quotes about good morals in that Jesus said... For example, isn't God an all knowing and all loving God? So, God must know how confused, how uncomfortable I am with me body, and how much mental and emotional pain I am in.  If he is all loving, wouldn't he want what is best for his child? Wouldn't he want the best thing for me? If they shot back that he made you your birth gender, which I think that they will, you could say back that if he made me this way he also made me trans.   
That being said Alex, it is nearly impossible to talk with religious people in order to change their religious beliefs.  I wish you the best of luck, and hopefully you are able to change their mind :)

Quote from: Kristi on December 08, 2010, 04:10:15 AM
I would not act in a way that would give them any more ammunition.  Don't be confrontational.  Let them think this out and see how shallow their own thinking is.  Just ask them some intelligent questions, such as:

-Why is it a sin to have corrective surgery for this, but not for any other birth defects?

-Why do you feel living as the person God made me to be undermines the salvation God gave me?

-This is so painful to me.  Doesn't the Bible teach that we are to bear one another's burdens?

I wish you the very best of luck!

I agree with Krysti. It is dificult for you, being confrontational may make it much worse.
Erosce's parents and one of his brothers are Jehovahs Witnesses. Her father said it was a sin and we would be asking him to go against his religion to socialize with us. Erocse's brother an elder in his JW congregation did not speak to us at all. No scriptural information was attained from either as to why it is a sin. As Shayne said there are many, irrelevant scriptures no one lives by and would not impose on their own lives today.
I am sorry that you have to contend with the prehistoric irrationalilities of religion too. There are allot of nice things in this life. Sometimes we all have to deal with the pain of ignorance in people we love.  Our best wishes to you and sincere regards.
~Hugs~
Patty

You could just toss the ball back to them, so to speak.  For every negative comment hurled at you, simply change a couple of words and deflect the anger back to them.  I am becoming an expert in this category, although it is still hard.  I sadly understand what you are going through firsthand, just not so much with my parents but with another family member.

* As to religion, God is about love, not hatred.  Jesus embraced Mary Mandolin, not threw stones at her.

* Who made your parents judge, jury, and executioner?  Did they personally talk with God?  How do they know that God did not approve?  God knows everything and is perfect, so if he did not intend for a biological diversity, then he would not have made transgendered people.

* Pushing forward, do your parents drive or have been in any type of motor vehicle?  Have they ever flown on an airplane?  These things are sacrilegious.   "If God meant humans to fly, He would have given them wings."  Oh, he gave them the ability to create wings?  Okay, he gave them the ability to stand up to bigots and get the courage to transition too!

* It is up to parents to love their children and stand by them no matter what, not throw hatred their way.

* With your hatred that you show towards others, it is not "I" that will go to hell, but sadly "you," as I am not the one hating and having black clouds hanging over my head, but you.

The list goes on, but you have to be strong.  Sadly, it is your parents, which makes it harder, at any age.  Partners are hard too.

Maybe one day, they will come around.  Let us all hope for the best.

If they are like the religous people I know (including myself) - they'll likely want a more scriptural view of this. I found this a few days ago and it helped me. Also there are lots of minsters out there that support trans/that are trans. Getting them to talk with one could help.



*note not written by me*
Introduction

Religious faith has inspired some of the greatest accomplishments in human history. Conversely, it has also been misused to perpetrate some of the most horrific acts in human history.

In the same way, a belief system can be a very important source of strength, hope, and fellowship for some transsexuals. It has also caused a great deal of misery for others.

Some of us were raised in faiths that condemned our actions as immoral or wrong. Like the similar pressure we receive from society, it often makes us try to be someone we aren't. The problem with religious pressure is that the stakes are higher. Society's disapproval is nothing compared to jeopardizing one's soul, some feel. I believe transition is about living more truthfully, but many of us set up a massive deception to hide our feelings from others. Sometimes, we even deceive ourselves. When this deception is caused by religious pressure, it can create an emotionally wrenching and devastating dilemma when one realizes she has to transition.

One of the things you'll need to work on early in transition is reconciling your transsexual feelings with your beliefs. It's a part of self-acceptance. Occasionally, this is not possible, but if it's important to you, there are ways to find acceptance within most belief systems, and there are certainly transsexuals who share your faith who can lend you guidance and support.

Much of this writing centers on Christianity, since I am well-versed in the Bible and had a Christian upbringing. I also assume most readers have had some sort of Christian background. I have links covering other religions, although that information is not as complete as I wish.

Judaeo-Christianity and transsexuality

Leslie Feinberg, in the must-read Transgender Warriors, makes a very important point that the Hebrews are not to blame for the origins of trans oppression. Leslie points out correctly that the real problem was the patriarchal class division that occurs when any culture begins to produce enough surplus to accumulate wealth. However, as with most religions, the Hebrews sought to codify and enforce laws that maintained the priestly class as designated keepers of much of the surplus. Rules also sought to maintain the status of the wealthy. This meant vilifying other belief systems that posed a threat to the Hebrew status quo. This is certainly widespread, but the Hebrews were among the first to put it in writing that's survived.

One cannot deny that the rules written in Hebrew Scriptures have been used ever since to justify hatred of transgender people. Hebrew thought permeated Christian thought, which permeated Western thought. The Bible is probably the most influential literary work ever written. As with the passages below, it's important to put Hebrew anti-trans motivations in context, but it's clear that the Bible has been misused as one of the most damaging weapons against the transgender.

Know thine enemy

Probably the most intolerant religious group regarding transsexuality in America is fundamentalist evangelical Christianity. They are certainly the largest. Many of the more fundamentalist sects believe in their literal interpretation of the Bible. They feel the Bible's eternal truths, as they interpret them, back them up in saying transsexuals are an abomination in God's eyes.

Religious groups like Americans for Truth About Homosexuality make it their full-time mission to oppose transsexual activism and other things they see as morally corrupt. These people are heavily funded, large in number, and politically connected. I believe these groups are the gravest direct threat to transgender rights we face.

However, it doesn't take much looking to see that their condemnations of transsexuals do not follow a literal interpretation of the Bible. I've included examples that expose their hypocrisy and hatred below.

Passages from Scripture

Many Jews and Christians look to the Torah and/or Bible for guidance. Keep in mind that these Scriptures were compiled over almost 2,000 years. Think of how much different the world is since the time of Christ, and you'll get an idea of the kind of time the Bible spans. Because of the radical differences in their dates of origins and authorial intent, there are many places where the Bible contradicts itself. See the section below on eunuchs for a good example.

Unfortunately, this often makes it possible for both sides to find passages that echo their sentiments. As Shakespeare writes in Merchant of Venice, "The Devil can cite Scripture for his purpose." Scripture passages are in red, important comments are in purple.

The best thing to try to do when someone quotes a Bible passage out of context is to try to put it back, both in that chapter's context, and in historical context. Allow me an example:

Deuteronomy 22:5

I call this the cross-dressing rule, though it could be broadly interpreted to include transsexuals. They weren't throwing the term "transsexual" around four millennia ago.

    * A woman shall not wear anything that pertains to a man, nor shall a man put on a woman's garment; for whoever does these things is an abomination to the LORD your God.

Hebrew law was codified by priests who believed these laws were based on the received word of God, and that Hebrews were God's chosen people. This attitude is often a recipe for disaster-- any time someone thinks they have a divine right to do something, you probably won't be able to convince them otherwise without considerable effort.

Of Hebrew law, the Ten Commandments are best-known. However, Deuteronomic code discusses a vast number of rules and rituals to be followed.

Many of the Hebrew laws, including the cross-dressing rule, are about separation. When Hebrew marauders attacked and killed the agrarian inhabitants of Palestine and took their cities and virgins, they took great pains to make sure that their own culture and hierarchy was not polluted by the displaced inhabitants or their new forcibly converted wives.

The Hebrews were especially horrified by the polytheistic worship of the people they conquered, so their laws were especially strict regarding the LORD. For instance, the first four of the Ten Commandments:

   1. Worship no gods before me
   2. No graven images
   3. Don't take my name in vain
   4. Observe the Sabbath

Several Palestinian pagan sects involved worship where priests would crossdress in sex-changing rituals. Thus, for Hebrew priests-- cross-dressing idolatrous polytheists bad, monotheists good. And never the twain shall meet.

I believe that the current Western obsession with separation/distinction of sexes has its literary roots in ancient Hebrew law.

Mosaic law in context

Much of the Deuteronomic code is not followed these days, because many of the laws are ridiculous by current moral standards. Still, those with a political agenda, whether pro or con on an issue, often pick and choose passages that back up their claims, ignoring the fact that the passages appear amidst a lot of other stuff that seems ridiculous today.

Take a look at the miscellaneous rules which follow Deuteronomy 22:5--

    * A woman shall not wear anything that pertains to a man, nor shall a man put on a woman's garment; for whoever does these things is an abomination to the LORD your God.
    * Don't take a mother bird from her nest.
    * Put a rail around your roof so no one falls off.
    * Don't plant crops with vines.
    * Don't hitch oxen and donkeys together.
    * Don't wear cloth combined of wool and linen.
    * Sew tassels on four corners of clothes.
    * If a man marries a girl, but later doesn't want her and claims she wasn't a virgin, her parents are to bring blood stained wedding sheet to the leaders, who are to beat him and make him give 500 silver pieces to the father, and he can't divorce her. If the husband's claims are true, she's to be stoned to death at the entrance to her father's house.
    * Men who have sex with others' fiancees are to be killed along with the fiancee. However, if it happens in the country, you should just kill the man, since no one could have heard the woman cry out.
    * Raping single girls requires payment of 50 silver pieces to her father and marriage with no divorce.
    * No sex with any of father's wives.

Being forced to marry your rapist, polygamy, stoning people to death... not exactly civilized by modern standards. Just as strange today is sewing tassels on your clothes or putting a rail around your roof.

As I mentioned earlier, the Hebrews were deeply invested in distinction and separation. Their dietary laws are about categories, and most unclean animals do not fit into an acceptable category. For instance, Jews can't mix dairy and meat. Rules against pork are because pigs have cloven hooves but don't chew a cud, thus are not neatly categorized. Only water creatures with fins and scales may be eaten-- no shrimp or frogs, etc.

Biblical scholars have commented that the laws above about mixing crops, livestock and fabrics are manifestation of this fierce urge to maintain distinctions. Think of other common phrases from the Bible: separate the sheep from the goats, or the wheat from the chaff...

The Hebrews were heavily invested in maintaining a distinction between their beliefs and the beliefs of those they conquered. This meant in part a very distinct separation of sexes.

However, there are numerous passages about people who blur these distinctions: eunuchs.

Eunuchs

Eunuchs are people assigned males at birth who have later been castrated. Technically, transsexuals fit that narrow definition, although eunuchs generally lived as men after castration. This custom appeared throughout Asia and peaked during the Byzantine Empire. The practice was used for servants in royal households and to a lesser extent, in harems. Many ancient religious rituals involved genital modification, including the Hebrew practice of circumcision.

The first chapter of Daniel shows that he and the Chaldean king's chief eunuch were close. Some have gone as far as to say Daniel himself was a eunuch, but that's not clear. An even more tendentious stretch is that Daniel was gay. Another eunuch, Ebedmelech, saved Jeremiah after he'd been put in a well by his enemies (Jeremiah 38:7).

Eunuchs get a bad rap early on in Scripture, but in later Jewish and Christian writings, they are allowed to join those groups in worship.

Deuteronomy 23.1

Immediately following the above miscellaneous rules in Deuteronomy, there's specific mention of eunuchs.

    * He whose testicles are crushed or whose male member is cut off shall not enter the assembly of the LORD.

Hmm. That doesn't sound good (the rule or the injury).

Also out of the club are pagan temple prostitutes and Israel's political enemies, among others. This chapter also tells how to deal with wet dreams and how to bury your excrement while camping. Again, put it back into context...

Remember, circumcision = genital modification

The rule probably applied to those who modified their genitals as part of pagan ritual. Like 22.5, it is about transgender practices by non-Hebrews. Of course, the Hebrew version of genital modification was OK, and some say this is because circumcision didn't usually interfere with reproduction. Anything that negates reproduction interferes with the system by which wealth is passed on-- a big no-no.

And let's not forget castrati

Further, remember that eunuchs known as castrati were highly respected singers in European cathedrals. Their full-throated soprano voices were considered an appropriate and inspirational form of praise to God.

However...

Isaiah 56:4-5

In contradiction to the rules against eunuchs in Deuteronomy stands this passage from Isaiah:

    * "For thus says the Lord: to the eunuchs who keep my sabbaths, who choose the things that please me and hold fast to my covenant, I will give, in my house and within my walls, a monument better than sons and daughters, I will give them an everlasting name that shall not be cut off."

"Shall not be cut off??" Who says the Bible doesn't have much humor! That's a pretty bad pun! This passage is especially useful for transsexuals, since it appears in the Old Testament along with the Deuteronomy passage.

Acts 8:26-39

This is the story of the evangelist Philip (not the apostle), who meets a devout Ethiopian eunuch. Philip offers to interpret a passage the eunuch was reading at the time. The passage was Isaiah 53:7-8, often interpreted as a prophecy of Christ's coming. Philip takes this chance to tell the eunuch about Jesus Christ, and the eunuch asks to be baptized. This eunuch is traditionally held to be the person who brought Christianity to northern Africa.

The point of this is that even eunuchs can be baptized as Christians or join in God's worship, in contradiction with Deuteronomy 23:1 and in keeping with Isaiah 56:4-5. In fact, eunuchs have been doing the work of the church since the time of Christ.

Matthew 19:12

This passage has Jesus speaking directly about eunuchs:

    * For there are some eunuchs, who were so born from their mother's womb: and there are some eunuchs, who were made eunuchs by men: and there are eunuchs who have made themselves eunuchs for the Kingdom of Heaven's sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it.

Many interpretations of this passage have arisen. Some believe it is a discussion of voluntary celibacy, but the fact that Christ mentions people born that way indicates to me a birth condition. Some have also interpreted this to mean gays, which doesn't seem out of the question. However, I think the most literal interpretation would include intersexed (born that way) and transsexual persons (made that way). Regardless of interpretation, the main point is that anyone able to receive the Kingdom of Heaven may do so.

Mark 9:43-47

This passage has Jesus speaking directly about altering one's body:

    * If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out. And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than to have two feet and be thrown into hell. And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell.

Many interpretations of this passage have arisen as well. While it is rarely taken as a literal exhortation, it does seem to say that your bodily form does not matter, and that altering it will not exclude you from entering heaven.

Your body is a temple

I Corinthians 5:19

The "your body is God's temple" argument is used for everything from suicide to poor eating habits.

    * If anyone destroys God's temple, God will destroy him. For God's temple is holy, and you yourselves are his temple.

For transsexuals, this argument often manifests itself as, "If God had wanted you to be a woman, he would have made you that way." This argument is easily countered by asking if this applies to any sort of medical intervention, from wearing corrective lenses, to taking aspirin, to other surgeries.

God and discrimination

1 Samuel 16:7

In this passage, the lowly shepherd David is anointed king of Israel. Samuel assumes the LORD will choose one of David's many handsome brothers, but the LORD says to Samuel:

    * ...I do not judge as man judges. Man looks at the outward appearance, but I look at the heart.

Acts 10:34

This appears in the story of the first Gentile converted to Christianity.

    * Peter began to speak: "I now realize that it is true that God treats everyone on the same basis. Whoever fears him and does what is right is acceptable to him...

The original context was race, but a broader interpretation seems valid.

Galatians 3:28

Another catch-all comeback! If someone starts spouting Scripture to justify hating transsexuals, lay this one on them:

    * ...there is neither male nor female, for we are all one in Christ Jesus.

John 3:16

Of course, nothing beats a passage that's really familiar...

    * For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosover believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Sounds like that covers pretty much any believer, huh? Thanks to that rainbow wig guy who popularized the verse, even if a lot of sports fans don't know what he was referring to.

QuoteMark 9:43-47

This passage has Jesus speaking directly about altering one's body:

    * If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out. And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than to have two feet and be thrown into hell. And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell.

well there ya go, the trump card
"I had to cut it off.....it was making me sin."
Not exactly a perfect win but a win is a win.

There's lots that you can say. See this site for more info: http://www.transchristians.org (http://www.transchristians.org)

I've combatted everything my parents have said and they were left silent with nothing else to say but they still cling to their stupid prejudices

You could give up your belief in 'sin'.  It's an awesome first step to living a happy and self-actualized life.

Alternatively you could say "Gee god made me a transexual, and who are you to question god?"  Though I'd advise a long trip to the closest bar after that as mom is going to blow a gasket or two.

Tad gave a great write-up.  I just wanted to add a thought to what he wrote.

I researched the topic a bit last week from a Jewish point of view.  I went and asked a reform rabbi, who directed me to TransFaithonline.org, who directed me elsewhere.  Basically, the reform and conservative wings fully accept the LGBT community.  The Union of Reform Jewish Rabbis, or whatever that is called, accepts Jews.

The problem, of course, comes from the Orthodox and Ultra Orthodox Jews, but I am not sure that I consider them Jews.  They act more like extremists and cultists, not to mention hypocrites.  That comes from personal knowledge of Chabad.  Evangelical Christians, Born Again Christians, and Catholics are no better, pretty much hypocrites.

That being said, even the Orthodox does accept trans people, so long as the transition follows certain guidelines.  Jewish Law forbids the self altering of one's body, but there is no law that states that someone else, like a doctor, cannot do that.  Doctors alter the body all the time for one thing or the other.  Think of surgery or giving medicine.  There were two Jewish authorities (from reading material on TransFaith), which discusses this topic.

Jewish Law specifically states that sex is determined solely by outward appearance of the genitals; period.  A person who undergoes a sex change surgery is considered the opposite sex with no bad karma or going to hell.  The person doing the surgery is not punished either by Orthodox law, as long as the surgeon is not Jewish.

The passage about a man cannot a woman's clothing is not opposing transsexuals.  The Jewish Judges / scholars said that as long as a transsexual does not wear the opposite clothing until after GRS/SRS, then there is no violation of law.  The violation comes during the transition, but even that has an out.

Basically, it boils down to people's prejudice and hatred of anything that they do not understand or that they perceive as different.  History is full of this type of thing.  People hated scientists centuries ago who said that the world was round and not flat.  The Church fought Galileo, who said the world was round citing the bible, but now they are okay that the world is round.  The list is endless.

There is a F2M ordained rabbi in San Francisco (Oakland?), who did a lot of research on this topic.  His name is Reuben Zellman.

Beit Shimchat Torah, the temple where Reuben Zelman works, has a transgender section.

http://www.cbst.org/Community/Transgender/Trans-Intersex-and-Gender-Queer-Resource-Page (http://www.cbst.org/Community/Transgender/Trans-Intersex-and-Gender-Queer-Resource-Page)

There are articles there.  He addresses things from an F2M point of view, but the same applies for M2F.

This whole topic is quite involved, but there is nothing in Jewish Law that forbids transsexuals.  Heck, even gays and lesbians are now welcome in reform temples, so change is possible.

Not to talk too much on Jewish people, but Christian denominations also now fully embrace transsexuals and do not see any conflict with religious doctrine.  It is only the extremes side still that does not evolve their thinking and embrace others and they would have others do onto them.

I just watched a great show called the naked archiologist and he was able to postulate that paul was a spy for the romans / Constantine and Peter was a spy for the jews and only james was true as he was Jesus brother. James was persecuted and slain while Peter and Paul were made out to be great men who excaped death. hmmm becareful of what is written in the bible because it has been distorted ever since Jesus was crucified. only his brother and Mother were there and followed him and his teachings without distortion.

http://community.history.com/topic/24678/t/Were-Paul-and-Peter-Roman-Spies.html (http://community.history.com/topic/24678/t/Were-Paul-and-Peter-Roman-Spies.html)

whose religion interpretation of the bible or truth of the past is your mother or parents or friends following ? 

get the truth and then follwo God or the true bible 

i love James writings

I was just emailing a friend about this very subject today. Here is what I said:

QuoteOn the spiritual thoughts behind being transgender I can think of a few ways to look at it:

On one side we can make the assumption and argument that babies are given from God, and that we are biologically predestined by God as we physically appear at birth. Therefore, it's easy then to say that a transgender person who seeks to modify their body is going against God's plan, since they were born with that body at birth. But this argument has limitations does it not? When a baby is born with their organs on the outside of the body is it wrong for us to modify God's plan and put the organs inside? If we make the above assumption then are we not playing God the same as a transgender person who seeks to "correct" what they feel has been wrong their entire life? How about people who are born with mental issues? If God planned them to deal with these struggles, then isn't it equally as wrong for us to medically intervene so these individuals can feel "normal"? So I understand this argument, but it doesn't entirely work for me and the argument feels somewhat shaky and requires some splitting of hairs and playing God (deciding where God made a mistake and we are morally justified in medically intervening). And deciding what is okay and not to intervene in God's plan. If transgender is a legitimate medical disorder, then it's the same as any other, and medical intervention is no more unethical or aspiritual than any other case to me.

Another way this could be looked at is by making a similar assumption, but in the positive. That God does predestine us biologically, but that He actually creates people male, female, and everything inbetween. Perhaps transgender individuals bring a unique perspective to the world, and God appreciates and intends this diversity within his creation. Maybe God's plan is for these individuals to live in the "in between" of the genders, or perhaps move from one to the other? Maybe the confusion and the problems we have with transgender or gay individuals is a human problem, not a Divine one. One could even interpret Jesus Himself as having either a positive, or at worst a neutral response to the transgender individuals that lived in His own day: "For there are eunuchs who have been so from birth, and there are eunuchs who have been made eunuchs by others, and there are eunuchs who have made themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. Let anyone accept this who can." Matthew 19:12 NRSV

A third way I can think of seeing it is to say that none of us is predestined biologically by God, and that human biology at birth isn't controlled by God but a human or natural process. If this is the case then babies are products of imperfect forces that have been in place since the fall of humanity. Making this assumption one could say it's not necessarily God's plan that a baby is born with organs outside its body, or intersexed, or LGBT, or with any particular biological configuration - but that such is how the world operates today. As such, I would see no reason to discriminate against any medically treatable condition on spiritual grounds. I would have no objections under this argument treating ANY medically treatable condition that would help the patient live a happier and healthier life. And, of course I would see no reason to discriminate against any such individuals on the basis of something that they are born with and is beyond their control.

As for any non-spiritual arguments for/against I am sure there are many. My basic thought right now is that if it can be shown that any medical treatment (even castration) is a legitimate and scientifically proven way to improve the quality of life for the patient, then I am not ethically opposed to it. (or you could say as above, "I am able to accept this." :)

I am not sure if this is helpful, but I thought I'd share it just in case.

Quote from: M2MtF2FtM on December 08, 2010, 04:42:29 PM
I just watched a great show called the naked archiologist and he was able to postulate that paul was a spy for the romans / Constantine and Peter was a spy for the jews and only james was true as he was Jesus brother. James was persecuted and slain while Peter and Paul were made out to be great men who excaped death. hmmm becareful of what is written in the bible because it has been distorted ever since Jesus was crucified. only his brother and Mother were there and followed him and his teachings without distortion.

http://community.history.com/topic/24678/t/Were-Paul-and-Peter-Roman-Spies.html (http://community.history.com/topic/24678/t/Were-Paul-and-Peter-Roman-Spies.html)

whose religion interpretation of the bible or truth of the past is your mother or parents or friends following ? 

get the truth and then follwo God or the true bible 

i love James writings

I to, really enjoyed Tad's post. It was so well thought out.

As to the above.

There are quite a lot of these notions and theories going around. The one thing they all have in common is they seek to portray the Gospels as part of a conspiracy.

Islam, in particular, teaches that the Gospels are corrupted, by men, to suit themselves.

There really is only one response. If someone, for whatever reason, was going to forge the Gospels, why would they write, for example:

We don't need to attend any church.

No-one has the right to judge us. (By inference, we cannot submit ourselves to the judgement of others)

We must never kill.

Because, in all honesty, who could possibly benefit from these, very radical and somewhat dangerous ideas?

The truth here is that there is no real Truth (Veritas) in any of this.  Truth can be proved, it never asks to be taken 'on faith' - the only people who ask that of you are con-artists.  Its all a bunch of old stories, made up in superstitions by people who didn't even understand the rock they were sitting on when they wrote it.  Of course, if you think the rambling writings of a bunch of sheep-herders way back in BCE is an appropriate guide to living in the 21st Century, then don't blame me when you don't find a place in the here and now, which may well be the only here that that is.

Quote from: CaitJ on December 08, 2010, 01:46:37 AM
By asking them if any other surgical procedure is a sin.

This pretty much.

I don't believe in sin, hell, god etc. but when they say that god doesn't make mistakes so transitioning is a sin, you could say that this is simply corrective surgery and god made you this way and gave you this path for a reason.

I had a friend who was born with a hole in her heart she had it fixed so is she a sinner or the doctors/parents? Most christians will say no but they wouldn't say the same thing about transitioning, I think alot of people just cling to 'its a sin' so they don't have to question their prejudices.

Personaly I think that my transition is a direct chalenge to me by the gods. It is my destiny and what I am supossed to do. When I ran from transition my life was hell. Now I am embracing the path the gods have set for me, life is going well.

Hi Alex

do you have the same religion as your parents and do you have quilt feelings about it or do you just want to give a reply to your parents.
If it's the last, don't do it because you can't convince them, save your energy for positive things.
And I am so very, very agree with Nathan.
Most people use their holy books for what's the best for them or their opinion.
So you can hide behind the bible or something, you can say, well for me it's not a problem but my religion you know.
Than they can hide their own intoleration behind the intoleration of the book.
Beside, the bible is more than 2000 years of age, did they do transition at that time?
So live your own life and be happy, you deserve it

hug annette

*if you think the rambling writings of a bunch of sheep-herders way back in BCE is an appropriate guide to living in the 21st Century*

So well written Tekla..... stuff like that gets points and prizes....!

No matter your personal beliefs, you will score no points at all by attacking your parents' religion.  You will only put them on the defensive and make certain they will not hear you.  I hope you take a better course.  I hope you can be respectful, as you want them to be to you.  Model it and show them how it works.  If you have disagreements with their religion, fine.  Say them.  If it is a matter of how they interpret a particular teaching, show them why you think they are in error.  But you don't strike me as a particularly nasty person at all.  Why just give your parents more ammunition, instead of trying to have honest dialog and gain respect?

Peace,
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fganjataz.com%2F01smileys%2Fimages%2Fsmileys%2FloopyBlonde-blinking.gif&hash=4545ddf8251cf9c32ae6074d56e48bc34a755857)Kristi

Nicely put Kirsty.

My vote is with Kristi's advice.

There is no middle ground with those who believe that: "God said it, I believe it, that settles it."

Quote from: Cruelladeville on December 09, 2010, 04:26:12 AM
*if you think the rambling writings of a bunch of sheep-herders way back in BCE is an appropriate guide to living in the 21st Century*

So well written Tekla..... stuff like that gets points and prizes....!

That passage is remarkably familiar.

Its a basic part of the pro-science, anti-creationism, anti-intelligent design speech.

Quote from: tekla on December 09, 2010, 11:46:52 PM
Its a basic part of the pro-science, anti-creationism, anti-intelligent design speech.

While I don't really want to get into a confrontation, it isn't.

It's a statement of opinion. The opinion may be correct, it may be debatable, it may be incorrect. But it is just opinion and not scientific in the least.

You realize that there are places that are forced to teach the biblical account of creation along side the modern scientific cosmology, in a science course, as if both are equally valid?

Check this out, it would be hysterical if they didn't believe it's true.

http://creationmuseum.org/ (http://creationmuseum.org/)
Adam and Eve live in the Garden of Eden. Children play and dinosaurs roam near Eden's Rivers. The serpent coils cunningly in the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil.

From the NYT review:
Two prehistoric children play near a burbling waterfall, thoroughly at home in the natural world. Dinosaurs cavort nearby, their animatronic mechanisms turning them into alluring companions, their gaping mouths seeming not threatening, but almost welcoming, as an Apatosaurus munches on leaves a few yards away.

What is this, then? A reproduction of a childhood fantasy in which dinosaurs are friends of inquisitive youngsters? The kind of fantasy that doesn't care that human beings and these prefossilized thunder-lizards are usually thought to have been separated by millions of years?
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/24/arts/24crea.html (http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/24/arts/24crea.html)


And we wonder why our math and science scores are slipping.

Of course, not being content with that, they are now planning a 'full size' reconstruction of Noah's Ark.

http://www.thenewamerican.com/index.php/culture/family/5467-planned-noahs-ark-theme-park-in-kentucky-draws-praise-criticism (http://www.thenewamerican.com/index.php/culture/family/5467-planned-noahs-ark-theme-park-in-kentucky-draws-praise-criticism)
Got to love this comment: We are making plans to go and visit. All those 'educated people with science backgrounds' CAN move to one of the other great states we have. 

Y'all can't have it both ways.

To those who encourage debate and dialogue I do have to say that, from personal experience, whilst this may sound like a good idea in theory, in reality it is often simply impossible.

I don't think deliberate confrontation is a good idea either, but sometimes it is necessary to draw a line in the sand and say "thus far and no further" if only for ones own sanity.

My experience of discussion with people, holding what I regard as extreme religious views, was that they took it as a sign of weakness on my part that I was even willing to debate, and they then moved rapidly on to trying to obstruct, delay, and generally hinder my passage.

Admittedly for me it all happened a very long time ago, but my experience was that in order to make progress I had to draw down the shutters somewhat and make these people realise that I was already utterly beyond their redemption. Only then did they stop trying to "save" me from myself, which in practice meant throwing every available spanner that they had into my path.

I'm sure their efforts were well meant. Unfortunately for a few years all they succeeded in doing was painfully pulling me apart, somewhat to the horror of my non religious parents I may add. Ironically my parents always had actively supported my transition, and they regarded the interference of the religious folks that I had gotten involved with at University, almost as a form of psychological abuse!

So while I agree that you don't want to fall our needlessly with anyone, I still think that sometimes the best way to proceed is to make it abundantly clear that whilst they are welcome to their opinions, there is a vast difference between holding an opinion and sitting in Judgement.

Quote from: rejennyrated on December 10, 2010, 11:47:57 AM
So while I agree that you don't want to fall our needlessly with anyone, I still think that sometimes the best way to proceed is to make it abundantly clear that whilst they are welcome to their opinions, there is a vast difference between holding an opinion and sitting in Judgement.

That is a good point. Nobody is entitled to sit in judgement, though that does not prevent some from doing so.

I've never been faced or asked this question. Scripturally there's nothing in the bible that says that having a sex change is sinful. Unfortunately many folks believe this sort of logic without really investigating what the scriptures actually mean.

Gennee

I suppose if I could memorize enough of it I'd rattle off this list of sins (http://www.amazingbible.org/Documents/Bible_Studies/Sin_list_part_6.htm), or at least the ones that we can safely assume "most" people have committed.

Quote from: rejennyrated on December 10, 2010, 11:47:57 AM
To those who encourage debate and dialogue I do have to say that, from personal experience, whilst this may sound like a good idea in theory, in reality it is often simply impossible.

{snip}

So while I agree that you don't want to fall our needlessly with anyone, I still think that sometimes the best way to proceed is to make it abundantly clear that whilst they are welcome to their opinions, there is a vast difference between holding an opinion and sitting in Judgement.

I would respectfully disagree with the first part but agree with the second part.  I firmly believe that if two people really want to dialog, they can.  Most people, in my experience, who claim this is impossible have come across a situation where one or the other (or both) simply do not want to.  And yes, I have had quite a lot of experience in the realm.  In the end, it is not even about agreeing.  It is certainly not about judgment.  It is, however, about respect.

Quote from: Kristi on December 11, 2010, 07:44:01 PM
I would respectfully disagree with the first part but agree with the second part.  I firmly believe that if two people really want to dialog, they can.  Most people, in my experience, who claim this is impossible have come across a situation where one or the other (or both) simply do not want to.  And yes, I have had quite a lot of experience in the realm.  In the end, it is not even about agreeing.  It is certainly not about judgment.  It is, however, about respect.

Indeed as you say both must want to have one - but for a dialogue to have a useful purpose I submit that the two parties also need some willingness to either change point of view or have a desire to comprehend the others point of view otherwise that dialogue merely becomes the repeated re-statement of the same two fixed points, which ultimately seems rather futile.

Like you I too have some experience on this point even if from a different angle as it were. My experience is that whilst some people can indeed engage productively that is as I said often (I never said always) not the case.

I agree that Respect is a fine thing and something we should all aspire to hold for each other. However it needs to be reciprocal which can unfortunately be difficult to maintain when one party begins by arguing from a point of assumed innate superiority, namely that "I am saved and born again, whilst you are not and are therefore going to hell."

...and yes - I understand that none of this should ever be seen as being about superiority or inferiority, "salvation by faith through grace" does of course imply that salvation is a gift of God, but unfortunately fallible human beings often do misconstrue their arguments and so I submit that often (not always) the best way to maintain mutual respect on this subject is not to engage in the first place.

On which note I will take my own advice in regard to the ongoing debate and declare my contribute done. I respectfully withdraw from further engagement. :)

Have you asked them to point out where Jesus says anything on the subject?  I have never found any quotes on the subject.  the nearest I can come is eunuchs who are castrate for the glory of God.

Remember, the New Testament supercedes the Old, therefore the Deuteronomic rules no longer apply.If your parents wish to apply them, I would ask your father if he is circumcised, and if not, when is he going to be?  As for your mother, as she is almost certainly wearing mixed textiles such as a polyester-cotton blouse, you could ask here if she has any preference in the way she is to be killed.

If peple are going to apply the old rules, they can't pick and choose, otherwise they are hypocrites, and should therefore also suffer death. " So, maybe we should all just get along,eh?"

Quote from: tekla on December 08, 2010, 06:35:33 PM
Truth can be proved, it never asks to be taken 'on faith' - the only people who ask that of you are con-artists.  Its all a bunch of old stories, made up in superstitions by people who didn't even understand the rock they were sitting on when they wrote it.

I agree entirely.  Truth is truth because it exists apart from what we believe in.  If someone needs faith, it is only because their position is so weak that they cannot have real knowledge.  Faith is nothing but a strong obsession with conjecture.  Faith is only usefull if that conjecture is actually true.  Even then, faith is only usefull by coincidence.  Faith is never an adequate replacement for proper observational skills.

Truth has a funny way of existing despite our disbelieving it.  Fantasy has a funny way of not existing despite our believing in it.  Faith has a funny way of making us believe something despite the evidence against it.

Except we live in a world where fantasy is far more real than truth.

Quote from: tekla on December 15, 2010, 05:45:57 PM
Except we live in a world where fantasy is far more real than truth.

Fantasy isn't more real than truth, it's just more desirable.  Everybody wants the universe to be as they are, and not as it is.

Everybody wants the universe to be as they are, and not as it is.

Just give me one thing that I can hold on to
To believe in this living is just a hard way to go

Viewing the limited knowledge of your circumstances through the filter of my own experience, I would say this sounds like a lost cause.  So I suggest you think twenty or thirty years into the future after your parents have disowned you decades previously and gone to their graves, making it clear that you are unwelcome at their funerals, and go ahead and say all of the nasty, hateful things to them that they deserve to hear, and that you wish you had said while you had the chance.  OK, not really.  But you get the drift.

Quote from: glendagladwitch on December 15, 2010, 10:59:12 PM
Viewing the limited knowledge of your circumstances through the filter of my own experience, I would say this sounds like a lost cause.

It may be.  If they are 100% sure it is a sin, and nothing can convince them otherwise, then probably the best thing to do is move on.

If they aren't 100% sure - and you have the strength to do it - you may dialog.  But convincing someone who is already convinced of something is not where I'd spend my time.  It would be rather like trying to convert the Mormon missionaries when they come to your door - it probably isn't ever going to happen, as they are in the mindset of convincing you.  And simply living your life - without compromising your beliefs to please others, but remaining kind, loving, and calm - might be the best message you could send.  I'd also let them know that they have the choice of whether or not to remain in your life: they can follow your rules (things like, "You will not tell me I'm sinning, you will use the right name and/or pronouns, you will not bring people to dinner with me without asking me first, etc") or they can insist on their "rightness" and leave the relationship.  But put it back on them.  It's not your choice, it's theirs.

The issue is almost always that people are confusing trans with gay.  And then wrongly applying scripture to homosexuality.  Two errors at once.  The bigoted right-wing "cure gays" movement believe it is feminine men that become gay and masculine women that become lesbians.  Someone who is MTF for instance is really just a gay guy.  Related to this is that homosexuality is caused by either trauma or bad parenting.  If a person is gay, it's because he/she didn't have a strong bond with a same-sex parent, in the bigot's eyes.  As one bigot put it, "Fathers, hug your sons, or some other man will."  All of this is of course completely discredited and hogwash, but it's truly what they believe.  If this is what you're arguing against, you probably won't win.  If they don't think it was caused by trauma in your case, then, to make things even worse, that implies it was caused by THEM - so not only are you a sinner, but they are too - and bad parents to boot.  Finally, you may also be running into a parent that is a repressed homosexual - that typically makes someone *very* anti-gay (and, as mentioned above, this group of people often assumes trans and gay are the same thing).  There's a huge chance that accepting you will mean rejecting their current church, many of their friends and family, etc.  So there's a lot of things standing in their way.  None of this is an excuse for denying love to a child, of course, but sadly people do bigoted things sometimes, even to their own children.

If they are willing to actually talk, and perhaps actually change their mind, then I would ask them what rule they apply to determine what parts of the Bible are meant to be followed literally in this time and place.  Most people won't know the rule they use, but having a consistent way of differentiating the parts of scripture that are important today from the parts that were important historically is important.  So, if you are going to admit slavery was wrong (despite plenty of verses that allow slavery), polygamy was wrong, that a married man sins when he sleeps with an unmarried (and unengaged) non-virgin (this was NOT adultery!), that women can get short haircuts, that women can preach in a church, that divorce in cases of abuse (not one of the reasons allowed in the New Testament) is okay, etc, then I think you have to ask two questions: First, what scriptures are they trying to use, and second, why don't they fit their "rule" on what scriptures are important.  But this can be difficult, and only a few rare people will change their mind.

It's sad that people think Jesus came to stop people from having surgery.  Or to love others.

Great thread everyone!  I read through it all and learned quite a bit. 

One thing I wouldn't personally recommend is listing a bunch of silly rules from Deuteronomy and Leviticus in response to someone's opinion that you are sinning.  You are basically saying, 'hey look you sin too!, LOL' 

Since I do not believe I am sinning I think that argument is less than effective.  When you use it you are basically validating their point that you are sinning.  It doesn't matter if they are or not.  As God's perfect creation I am doing exactly what he intended for me to do.  I have complete confidence in this. 

I will be using Galatians 3:28 when I see the need.  Awesome verse.   

There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.   I like King James.  Sounds cooler, heh

Quote from: Squirrel698 on December 16, 2010, 01:26:14 PM
One thing I wouldn't personally recommend is listing a bunch of silly rules from Deuteronomy and Leviticus in response to someone's opinion that you are sinning.  You are basically saying, 'hey look you sin too!, LOL' 

I think that depends on how you list the rules.  I think most Christians would say that the law in Deuteronomy and Leviticus is no longer applicable to Christians.  For instance, eating a cheeseburger is not a sin for a Christian.  So I would point someone quoting the law over to Hebrews, which pretty much demolishes the argument that Christians should follow the law.  But if that wasn't sufficient, I'd probably list a few rules of the law and ask if violating them made someone a sinner today.

Basically, I'd use them to show that "sin" is different than "going against the old-testament law", as Christians can accept that point.

I'd also suggest that the verses they are quoting probably don't mean what they think they mean, but when I can say, "Regardless, even if they did mean what you thought, they are irrelevant and do not apply," I think that makes a stronger case.

Now if I just did what I see a lot of people doing and say, "Well, you're a sinner too because you eat shellfish," then I think I would be implying both being trans and eating shellfish was sinful - when neither is in the Christian worldview.

What I don't think would work for most Christians is to simply say, "I think those verses are wrong because I don't like them."  You have to give a reason - and that they clearly don't apply today, because of Hebrews (positive confirmation that they do not apply) and because the Church does not see many "law violators" as sinful, such as the guy eating a lobster (negative confirmation that shows that application of the law would be absurd).  In otherwords, depending on who you are talking with, there is both ways to show that your view is correct (Hebrews) and that their view is wrong (inconsistency in their application of the old testament law), while also showing the (I believe) correct interpretation of the law - that we are set free from it as Christians and do not need to be bound by ANYTHING there, regardless of our personal interpretation of individual verses of the law.

I hope that distinction makes sense.

Quote from: glendagladwitch on December 15, 2010, 10:59:12 PM
Viewing the limited knowledge of your circumstances through the filter of my own experience, I would say this sounds like a lost cause.  So I suggest you think twenty or thirty years into the future after your parents have disowned you decades previously and gone to their graves, making it clear that you are unwelcome at their funerals, and go ahead and say all of the nasty, hateful things to them that they deserve to hear, and that you wish you had said while you had the chance.  OK, not really.  But you get the drift.

*like*

I had a saying that helped me get through life. Still does, in fact.

"God will not test us beyond our ability to endure."

Tell them that you view this as a trial from God: Will you be true to your own self, or follow anothers way?

You could just play the Dixie Chicks for them.

He pushed me 'round
now I'm drawin' the line
He lived his life
now I'm gonna go live mine
I'm sick on wastin' my time
Well now I've been good for way too long
Found my red dress and I'm gonna throw it on
'Bout to get too far gone

Praise the Lord and pass the ammunition
Need a little bit more of my tweleve ounce nutrition
One more helpin' of what I've been havin'
I'm takin' my turn on the sin wagon

On a mission to make something happen
Feel like Delilah lookin' for Samson
Do a little mattress dancin'
That's right I said mattress dancin'

Praise the Lord and pass the ammunition
Need a little bit more
of what I've been missin'
I don't know where I'll be crashin'
But I'm arrivin' on a sin wagon

When it's my turn to march up to old glory
I'm gonna have one hell of a story
That's if he forgives me
Oh, lord please forgive me

Praise the Lord and pass the ammunition
Need a little bit more of that sweet salvation
They may take me
with my feet draggin'
But I'll fly away on a sin wagon

I'll fly away on a sin wagon

I guess it depends on whether they know your religious beliefs.

If they are christo-fundies who don't know your beliefs, you could reassure  them that the Ayatollah Khomeni issued a fatwa years ago stating that SRS is a part of revealing the God's truth in the world!!  (Hence the Shia accepting transsexuals while still considering homosexuality as a sin.)

Then ask if they have ever considered converting to Islam.  I know it is wrong to mess with the heads of the wilfully ignorant, but sometimes I just can't help it.

Okay long thread.  Just as a note, please keep on topic, issues about the validity or Christianity or religion, or even on the other end Scientific fundamentalists and atheists in general can go on other threads.

I'm not Christian myself, but I think I may have some advice. I was involved in the religious community, went to Christian school and whatnot, and have friends of a variety of religious backgrounds of the LGBTQA spectrum,, and a lot of this comes from being in such a background.

Yes, fighting scripture with scripture is hard, but often that's your only option, even if the other party plays the "I'm right, you're not" card over and over.

Yes, the Bible doesn't state anything about a "sex-change" being wrong, but those who believe it do be a sin will be quick to state the following: there was no "sex-change" when all this was written, it "kills your unborn children," "homosexuality is wrong" (often people will drag that in whether is fits or not).  So this is not the best "come-back" for the super up-tight religious folks.

As for Leviticus and Deuteronomy, (hey that last one gets spell checked, awesome for me!~ I would have had to look it up), there are several interpretations, but here are two of the most interesting I've found.  Many Christian scholars say these passages were mostly written for hygiene purposes like listing what not to eat because at the time it could easily kill you, or many people have a severe allergic reaction to it.  Or, things we take for granted like ready access to baths and condoms, were not developed at the time.  Another interpretation from reformed Judaic scholars is, and lets remember these passages were written by the Semites, is that the list of sins are all things that fall under acts that were used in the worship of other gods.  Meaning, in a convoluted way, men can totally have sex with each other while eating a bacon cheeseburger, just make sure it's not while worshiping anyone outside of the ones approved by monotheistic bearded dudes.  *yeah, don't tell your parents that last part*

As for God's plan, that you're "spitting in the eye of" and going to Hell.  This site is not about being transsexual, but sometimes we need to open up with something more on "familiar ground." It is the path a very interesting man, a pastor, took when he realized homosexuality and what the scripture said were not what they thought they were and how he can to believe in the a "biblical affirmation of homosexuality."  Like I said, not the same thing, but it touches many of the scriptures that get harped on by the religiously intolerant, and gives some great points about what many people believe is hard evidence of what God means, from a man who is still very religious.  The site is: http://godmademegay.com/ (http://godmademegay.com/)

With respect, appearing to mock fundimentalists, who adheir to anything, is just going to put their backs up. By their nature, these people are certain. If they see you as being anything 'less' than themselves, they will view any comments you make as hostile to their positions.

I personally have few problems with spiritual fundimentalists, mainily because in my society, they don't seem to have any significant influence. The last time any of these people shook any branches was during Thatcher's term.

But I do have a serious problem with many science fundimentialists. Those that claim science proves and especially those that claim that psychology is anything more than another belief system.

I'm raising this simply to offer a comparison. There is little or nothing to be gained by attacking these people. All fundimentalists have an armoury or defenses, generally boiling down to one. Hindus generally dismiss using their enlightenment argument, nazis generally dismiss using their cultural inferior argument, spiritualists generally use their devil argument and science types generally use their insanity argument.

All are basically the same. All are fanaitical, insecure, ignorant and essentially seeking power.

I have found the only way to deal with fundies of any hue directly is to convince these people you are not a threat to them.

If the person concerned knows you, then challenging their Bible knowledge is relevant.

However if it is a stranger who wishes to give you the benefit of their religious convictions, it is presumptious of them to assume you would not be offended by their comments. In that case I have no qualms about discomforting their sanctimonious self-righteousness by whatever means I can think of at the time.  If I can cause them to rethink their bigotry so much the better.

It's important to remember that you can't use logic to change the mind of a person who did not use logic to arrive at their conclusion (i.e. 'being trans is a sin').

When I came out to my mom the same thing happened. Given that I had to explain the difference between transexual and homosexual leads me to believe that she is just using religion as an excuse because thinking about that sort of thing makes her uncomfortable. Maye she's afraid to think about it because it could change her somehow. I'm not mad at her, I just wish she would open up her mind a little and just think about it. As of right now she won't even acknowledge that we even had the conversation, if I try to bring it up she ignores it and sometimes just walks away.

I suppose I've given up trying to tell her about my life and feelings, which is a shame because we've always been really close. I feel like this has torn us apart and I hate that it has and if I could do anything to work it out I would. I'm not going to live the perfect little life she wants for me though, I have my own plans and if she doesn't like them then she has to deal with her own feelings. I try to be a people pleaser and I hate arguments but somewhere I have to draw the line and not let people walk on me.

It's important to remember that you can't use logic to change the mind of a person who did not use logic to arrive at their conclusion

QFT

If you did not use reason to get there, reason is not going to get you out of there.  These beliefs are not based in reason, in logic, in rationality, and faith is pretty much all-powerful against such things. 

Quote from: tekla on December 19, 2010, 10:49:55 AM
These beliefs are not based in reason, in logic, in rationality, and faith is pretty much all-powerful against such things.

It's a sad reality, that just as these types hijack everything else to justify their limited intellect, many claim to use logic reason and rationality.

So I guess you're not going to sign on to my theory that people who do not believe in evolution should not be allowed to use vaccines?

Quote from: tekla on December 19, 2010, 12:07:13 PM
So I guess you're not going to sign on to my theory that people who do not believe in evolution should not be allowed to use vaccines?

Unfortunately there is a *ton* of anti-science in religious circles, so they would probably have no problem.  After all, vaccines cause all sorts of horrible things if you listen to some of the right-wing religious new-mom types, despite no actual evidence.

Quote from: Slanan on December 19, 2010, 02:17:09 PM
Unfortunately there is a *ton* of anti-science in religious circles, so they would probably have no problem.  After all, vaccines cause all sorts of horrible things if you listen to some of the right-wing religious new-mom types, despite no actual evidence.

Its not just Sarah Palin wannabes, alot of the everything organic, only natural fibers for my baby and oh yeah vaccines are bad types are screaming liberals.

Quote from: CaitJ on December 19, 2010, 07:51:12 AM
It's important to remember that you can't use logic to change the mind of a person who did not use logic to arrive at their conclusion.

Very true.