Susan's Place Transgender Resources

Here's the situation and I'd like some feedback please.

First off I live full-time as male. All the newer employees know me only as male but there are many who knew me pre-transition. It's been emphasized ad nauseam that pre-transition employees use only male pronouns for me. Many people are doing better, however there are some that haven't been trying at all. It's not like I came out just recently so we've been working on this for awhile know.

We had some outside people come in Monday to do some things for us. I was introduced as male (as should be) and the employees around them strictly used male pronouns. The outside people were in my office, I was interacting with them and they used male pronouns. I stepped out for a bit and when I returned things turned ugly.

When I returned one guy have me the worst look. He had his mouth open and was checking me out up and down. Even though this could be a sign he couldn't believe I was born female it was creepy and rude. After that they started using female pronouns and talked to each other like I wasn't even there. :-\ Despite being corrected they continued to use female pronouns.

Later they went into my manager's office which is connected to mine. My manager wasn't in there while they were doing things to her computer. While in there I heard them making fun of me being trans. They thought I wouldn't hear even though I'm just a few feet away. Dumbasses. ::) They did try to be quiet but I purposely listened to them. Normally I would've confronted them but I didn't want our working relationship to start out bad since I'll have to see them alot in the future. Plus it might seem weird because if I wasn't trans I wouldn't be trying to eavesdrop as much. I also have no idea how much they were told and really didn't know what to do.

Considering the situation the only thing that could've happened was somebody told them. It may have even been accidental by someone using the wrong pronoun, but something happened. People don't just suddenly assume your trans when others are using the correct pronouns when talking about you.

I don't want to make a big deal about it with the outside people. Mostly because, if I wasn't trans, not a big deal would be made of it. They would simply be corrected next time. My manager and I have put into place ways to resolve this with them next time.

Here's my problem. I asked my manager to send an e-mail to pre-transition employees explaining the situation. I want them to know that as time goes on using the wrong pronouns will cause more problems, confusion and embarrassment on my end. She says she can't believe these outside people would do or say what they did- so basically she deosn't believe me. WTF?! She wasn't even there! >:(

I told her this did happen. Why would I make something like this up? This is the last thing I want to happen. She spoke with the general manager about this and he recommended they have a meeting and bring it up. HELLO?! That would just out me to the employees who don't know! After I brought that up they decided not to do that.

For that last four days this has been discussed several times a day with my manager, the general manager and the owner. I don't want an apology from the outside people. I don't even want to find out which employee outed me- mistake or not. All I want is for people to realize that opening their mouths before thinking can cause problems, confusion, embarrassment and can harm me. We're a very small company so sending an e-mail out would take little time at all.

For being a place who "supports" me, whenever I have problems not much is done. I'm told "it's hard to remember". Bull->-bleeped-<-. Not after all this time, especially since some people aren't trying at all. And yes, maybe it is hard to remember. That doesn't make my embarrassment, harassment and depression any less. It's been four days and so far nothing has been or is planned to be done. I've talked to all the people in charge who have power to do anything. I feel violated and betrayed.

My situation gets even worse though. I don't want to quit my job because then I'd have no money and benefits. I also don't want to start a new job until my documents for work all show as male and therefore I can work as stealth (aside from whoever deals with the insurance papers). I do NOT want to have to go through this bull->-bleeped-<- again at work. However, I won't be able to legally apply as male to workplaces until April. So, I have at least 4 more months in this Hell hole.

Working here has become very toxic and difficult for everyone, not even including my trans issues. In my state I can be fired for being trans and not be protected. However, I'm sure there are national laws that can help you if you're working in a hostile environment with harassment and dealing with insults and upper management does nothing about it.

I'm going to document this situation and any others that might happen. That way if they fire me over BS charges I can use these against them if I go to court. My questions are does anyone else have any recommendations? Especially if you've went through this before? Should I talk to any legal people or document other things? I'm so angry and disappointed right now. This place could burn down and I wouldn't care.

I'm so sick of this ->-bleeped-<-. Many times I feel like I have no future and things will never get better. :(


tl;dr If you think you can work at a place and be known as trans you will have a hard time. Go stealth.

I am so sorry to hear about the workplace issues you are going through.

I completely agree with your statement that stealth is the best way to go.

Your boss has less incentive to act "against" your colleagues. For one, if your employer claims to support trans people in the workplace, any incidents that your boss admits were against that policy will reflect against your employer's public claims. It is bad PR to admit, which is necessary to take any action to stop this from happening again.

Secondly, a higher level manager at your workplace may not have your perspective. If you want to control who gets your private information, then you need to own the message. You should meet that higher level manager and inform him/her that this is  confidential medical information. Being transgender should not be information in the public doman, just as a cisgender person's erectile dysfunction, infertility, etc should not be in the public domain. It is none of anybody else's business to know or talk about your transition. It is a violation of your privacy.

What your higher level manager can do is to generalize the situation and institute training of some sort. He/she should bring in someone from HR or an outside consultant to speak with everyone about diversity in general - of race, ethnicity, gender, gender expression, sexual orientation, culture, thought, etc and how to respect the differences in the workplace and in the community and most importantly to respect each individual's human dignity.

As far as your personal situation goes, sometimes you might need to bite the bullet and stick around until better options come along.

wow that sucks man. When you overheard them, did they specifically say something about your being trans or was it just something like 'is that a girl?' I think if they said 'trans', someone definitely told them you are. If someone just used the used wrong pronoun, they may just be wondering what your sex is - and laughing about it.  :( Someone could have slipped the pronoun or purposely outed you for no reason. But I don't really think a pronoun slip necessarily tells anyone much. It seems like if there's a pronoun slip, people just think it's a mistake on their part. Are you listed as female on your paperwork, and would they have been handling it?

edit: So did they say trans or anything about 'used to be a girl?' Cause it's quite a leap from a wrong pronoun to that. The world isn't yet in the habit of assuming every girly looking guy mistaken for female is ftm. If so, someone said something.

Quote from: marissak on December 09, 2010, 11:02:03 AMSecondly, a higher level manager at your workplace may not have your perspective. If you want to control who gets your private information, then you need to own the message. You should meet that higher level manager and inform him/her that this is  confidential medical information. Being transgender should not be information in the public doman, just as a cisgender person's erectile dysfunction, infertility, etc should not be in the public domain. It is none of anybody else's business to know or talk about your transition. It is a violation of your privacy.

Sadly, I have already done this. Several times.
Another thing against me is that our company has no HR. All complaints go to my manager, the general manager and the owner. If they don't do anything then nothing gets done and I'm on my own.

Quote from: marissak on December 09, 2010, 11:02:03 AMWhat your higher level manager can do is to generalize the situation and institute training of some sort. He/she should bring in someone from HR or an outside consultant to speak with everyone about diversity in general - of race, ethnicity, gender, gender expression, sexual orientation, culture, thought, etc and how to respect the differences in the workplace and in the community and most importantly to respect each individual's human dignity.

The company owner won't pay for it.

Yeah, I'm going to just bite the bullet and bide my time. Someday I'll be able to work somewhere and be completely stealth- and that will be my next job. I just remind myself that I won't be here forever... every hour. A person shouldn't have to live like this. :-\

Several times a day I feel so hopeless and feel I'm doomed to a horrible future. Life seems so meaningless right now.

Quote from: Forum Admin on December 09, 2010, 11:30:50 AMWhen you overheard them, did they specifically say something about your being trans or was it just something like 'is that a girl?'

They said "[Radar] thinks she's a guy". Yeah. :-\ Hitting below the belt there. THAT'S how I know something was said. It will be impossible to find out because whoever said it wouldn't admit it and the outside people wouldn't admit they said that. It's a lose-lose situation for me.

I have no paperwork around nor would they be in any contact with paperwork that would've tipped them off to me being trans. Therefore someone had to say something.

It is possible that no one told them, that they comprehended it all by themselves.  Doubtful perhaps, but it could happen.  One of the downsides to 'we need to educate people' is that greater awareness brings greater awareness.  Despite the "Yeah you sure pass" threads, IRL people judge that stuff in a lot of ways, and often things we think we are concealing are readily apparent to other people.

Quote from: Radar on December 09, 2010, 12:18:34 PM
They said "[Radar] thinks she's a guy". Yeah. :-\ Hitting below the belt there. THAT'S how I know something was said. It will be impossible to find out because whoever said it wouldn't admit it and the outside people wouldn't admit they said that. It's a lose-lose situation for me.

I have no paperwork around nor would they be in any contact with paperwork that would've tipped them off to me being trans. Therefore someone had to say something.

Ouch. Sounds like there's not much can be done.  :(

Quote from: tekla on December 09, 2010, 12:26:54 PMIt is possible that no one told them, that they comprehended it all by themselves? ...IRL people judge that stuff in a lot of ways, and often things we think we are concealing are readily apparent to other people.

I thought about this, but it doesn't seem logical. When I was introduced to them I was referred to as male. The employees were calling me he. The outside people were calling me he.

Now, even if I questioned someone I would still use the pronouns the person's co-workers were using- especially if they were introduced that way. This seems logical from a professional standpoint too.

So, even if I questioned, unless someone told me different I'd stick with what everyone else was saying. I'd also definately not use the reversed pronouns on the person to their face if I wasn't sure. Of course, with us we'd use the preferred pronouns anyway on someone.

So, in this situation if they questioned me they probably wouldn't have done what they did unless someone told them or they both clocked me and were complete sociopaths.

Quote from: Radar on December 09, 2010, 01:03:22 PM
I thought about this, but it doesn't seem logical. When I was introduced to them I was referred to as male. The employees were calling me he. The outside people were calling me he.

Now, even if I questioned someone I would still use the pronouns the person's co-workers were using- especially if they were introduced that way. This seems logical from a professional standpoint too.

So, even if I questioned, unless someone told me different I'd stick with what everyone else was saying. I'd also definately not use the reversed pronouns on the person to their face if I wasn't sure. Of course, with us we'd use the preferred pronouns anyway on someone.

So, in this situation if they questioned me they probably wouldn't have done what they did unless someone told them or they both clocked me and were complete sociopaths.

Yeah, I think the conversation would of been more along the lines of 'is that a him or her?' if they thought this on their own. But anything's possible I guess. What with the Thomas Beatties and all. But probably not with the way they said it. They said it like they had a reason, like it was a fact '...thinks she's a guy'. That doesn't sound like someone just suspecting transness.

Oh my gosh, that sounds horrible.  I can't imagine how that must have felt, and I surely don't think I could have handled it as calmly as you apparently have.  Good job, and thanks so much for sharing.

I am a little speechless at imagining how I would deal with that....

I wonder if there is a way it could all work out, though. 

Best of luck as this progresses.

At my old job I worked a lot of different locations and the ones that my manager brought me to all read me as female. The ones that she didn't called me male. When I called her on it she was defensive.

I brought that up because it sounded as though your manager was defensive/ignoring it and blowing it off. Maybe she was the one who outed you which is why she didn't want to make a big deal? Like bearded said, you handled it better than I did. I would've probably gotten myself fired over it. I would've gone in when they were talking crap and told them off saying I was male and it was pathetic that they were wasting their time talking about it.

I think your rights were violated. Maybe just keep your head down, correct them if they use the wrong pronouns, and just try to tough it out and find a job in April. :( Wish I had better advice.

At my old job I worked a lot of different locations and the ones that my manager brought me to all read me as female. The ones that she didn't called me male.

Could it be your behavior changed when the boss was around?

Quote from: tekla on December 09, 2010, 11:29:14 PM
At my old job I worked a lot of different locations and the ones that my manager brought me to all read me as female. The ones that she didn't called me male.

Could it be your behavior changed when the boss was around?

It is possible but if that's the case I never noticed it. I had a lot of bosses and the rest of them referred to me as male. Truthfully I guess I'll never know. 

Most of us never notice small, but obvious to others, changes in our behavior, posture and the like.  But, like I said others do.  And though we all pretty much try to see what we want to see, once we notice one discrepancy, we begin to look closer, and closer and notice more and more.  Often times it seems like nothing is amiss till we notice that first flaw, then, once our minds our tuned that way it's a lot easier to begin to systematically begin to take apart the whole deal, noticing more and more.

@ Radar:

Hey, man.  Okay, I'm a transwoman and am older than you, but I've just recently gone through something similar.  I'll be brief so as not to bore you, but make note of the point I'm making.

Just a tad over a month ago, the company I was working with for some time engineered my resignation.  They're headquartered near Harvard University, are very sophisticated and quite savvy about employment matters and the laws governing them.  My wife worked for the same company while I was there.  In fact, she is still there.  This is important to know.

Well, a short while back, I came out as trans to a few key management personnel at that company.  Bam!  Things started to go downhill ... fast!  My wife noticed this immediately.  We could plot every move they were making and anticipate most of them, but there wasn't a damned thing we could do about it.  I very diplomatically got into it with them about breaking the law and about taking advantage of the employees in matters such as these.  That is:  I fought back ... diplomatically ... nicely ... mildly.  Bad move. 

They engineered my resignation ... on false pretenses which they engineered.  Remember, in court it's not what you believe that counts.  It's what you can prove.  They set it up so that I couldn't prove a thing.  Like I said, they're very savvy about these things. 

Knowing that they "had me," I did resign ... went to work for a chicken->-bleeped-<- outfit because I needed the money ... left that place only to sign on with another company where I'll start this upcoming Monday.  Hopefully, this place will be okay.  I'll not come out as trans again, as I work at home over the Internet, and there is no need to come out as such.

How does this pertain to YOU?

Grin and bear it.  Bite the bullet.  Tolerate the ->-bleeped-<-s.  Bro, that's exactly what they are:  ->-bleeped-<-s.  Sorry, but there comes a time when one has to call a spade a spade, so to speak, and this is one of those times. 

Ain't nuthin' gonna change this world anytime soon, dude.  Pricks will be pricks, and you're dealing with pricks.  Tolerate their BS until you can do your name change and get fully legal as a guy ... and then get the sam hell outta there, man!

Well, that's my 2-cents' worth.  It's your call.  Look what happened to me.  Been stressful as hell.  You wanna go through that?  Ain't worth it; I'm tellin' ya.  Just cope with it and bale out of there once you can. 

Peace out, man.  Hope it works out for you.    ;)   Lacey

Remember, in court it's not what you believe that counts.  It's what you can prove.

Yup

Quote from: tekla on December 09, 2010, 11:29:14 PM
At my old job I worked a lot of different locations and the ones that my manager brought me to all read me as female. The ones that she didn't called me male.

Could it be your behavior changed when the boss was around?

Good point. I've noticed I pass less around certain people. My voice changes when talking to certain types of people. I think it's due to the past of my trying to seem girly enough around certain types. It's totally subconscious, but just a recalling of what 'worked' with certain people in the past.

I'm not familiar with the USA legal system and protections that people may think they have. Having said that, in South Australia we have very liberal laws on non-discrimination.  But in any job employers can find a way to avoid them. I have done it.  Once they consider a person is too different to them to not be an 'enjoyable' employee they will find a way to shaft you.  This may account for Lacey's experience. In your case Radar maybe it is the same thing. Management may have decided that you are too 'different' to their ideas and are engineering ways to get rid of you.

BTW I do not mean these comments to be offensive just offering a perspective. The only other TG MtF that I knew of in my work place was treated with total respect, compassion and support. She was an electrician, and her male colleagues were down right protective of her. A bit sexist but I don't think she minded in the least.

But other work places differ.

It is very sad.

To put something into perspective. I remember my Dad coming home, job interview after interview. He never got the jobs. I remember his despair even though I was too young to understand. He eventually got the job he wanted and being the man he was he rose to the top of his profession by hard work and diligence.

I asked him as a teenager why he went through the period that  I  had remembered. The reason was he was a Catholic, and employment in Liverpool (UK) in those days was ruled by Protestants. At least we have advanced a few centimeters.

But that is little comfort.

My hopes and love are with you

Cindy

Thanks for the advise guys.

Lacey Lynne, I have legally changed my name. After my surgery I can change my DL and SS to male. I won't be able to change my BC until after some more surgeries, but most workplaces don't ask for those anyway. Some other legal issues which might out me will be finished in April- so then I can work on moving on.

I know my manager didn't out me. She is supportive and is very good at using male pronouns. She also gets on others for not using them. This problem is just an example of the dysfunction of this company. There's lots of talk and complaints about different things, but nothing happens. This place is the poster child for "All talk and no action". The inaction from upper management about everything here is mind boggling. I've never seen anything like this before. They're policy of handling any problems is to ignore it or not handle it if they don't have to. Whenever anybody needs help from upper management they don't get it. Needless to say, moral and mistrust are at an all time low for everybody here.

I'm not going to quit because I need the money and benefits. I'll just tolerate this Hellhole, but the waiting is killing me. Four months seems so very, very far away. :( I really don't know if I can handle it. I'll probably die from a heart attack before then.

However, I REFUSE to work at another place unless I can be stealth. I will NOT go through this ->-bleeped-<- again. So, I'll wait it out or die beforehand. Any which way I won't have to worry about where I work now. :)

The United Nations declaration that USA signed up to has as it's first principle  'the right to self determination'   - that must be interpreted as meaning you have the absolute right to determine that you will be seen as male.  logically it foloows that the USA must put in place such laws and practices that allow you to do this.

Point this out to your manager and the company president and tell them that you doubt they will defy the UN.

I have instructed my lawyers to consider the UN declaration in my own court case against the UK NHS>

Sorry Lilacwoman, but I had to chuckle when I read your posting.  I live in the midst of the Bible belt and many, many people here believe that the UN is a communist organization hell bent on destroying Capitalism, Christianity and The GOD BLESSED U.S.A. while pursuing a homosexual agenda.  Not necessarily in that order.  A local politician got the Tampa library to remove a completely inoffensive gay display that included books written by or about gays, because it "promoted a gay agenda."  If he isn't living in a few parts of America, he has no rights.  Except to shut up and do "what we tell you." (que the banjos) 

Quote from: lilacwoman on December 10, 2010, 08:02:50 AMThe United Nations declaration that USA signed up to has as it's first principle  'the right to self determination'   - that must be interpreted as meaning you have the absolute right to determine that you will be seen as male.  logically it follows that the USA must put in place such laws and practices that allow you to do this.

Yet it's not enforced- not even on the state level. In my state transpeople have no protection or special rights. Some cities here enacted protection but if I read it right it's only if your these cities' employees. My city doesn't have this protection. Here we can be fired legally for being trans. There is no hate crime protection here.

Cindy is completely right. The majority of the U.S. is like this. I'm sorry, but the U.S. sucks. The "American Dream" is an illusion. I need to move to another country. Any advice on how to do that?

Yeah, it's really easy.  All you have to do is get to a foreign county, go to the US Embassy there, turn in your passport and tell them that you want to renounce your US citizenship.  That's it.

Hard part is going to be finding a country that is going to let you immigrate.  And, pretty much once you get outside of the 1st World, life gets crappy and cheep in a hurry.  I take it that you're not thinking of going to Mongolia or Ethiopia or the Congo, but NO ONE who has grown up in the US can even begin to picture what day to day life is like in the Third World.  Most of those countries don't even have a word for tolerance.

Unless you have special skills, it's hard to get into Europe, New Zealand, Canada or Australia.  And forget Japan, if you're not Japanese they make no secret about not wanting you.  You can go there to work, and they like that, but citizenship is all but impossible.  You can get a permanent resident status after 10 years or so, but that's not the same thing.

Among the hardest places are Germany, Israel if you're not Jewish, Switzerland (12 years and then you have to go in front of a committee that has the power to deny you citizenship if they don't like you.)

OK, first, I'm going to assume you are white.  If you are not then this is a whole different deal.  And if you don't have at least a BA from a regular school (as opposed to some bible college) forget it.

Join their army.  It's the time honored way.
Marry someone in that country. 
Do you have specific skills that are needed in that country?
Even better, a job  - this is the BEST way to go, that way the company does the immigration stuff for you, but you have to have real mad prop skills at something they really need before they are going to pay you to move halfway around the world and go through all that.
Do you have enough money to support yourself without working? - lots of places are going to insist that you have X amount of money.

Almost all countries have both health and character qualifications on top of that.  And by health, I mean the most invasive physical exam you're ever going to get by a doctor of their (not your) choosing.  I would think that just about 80-90% of the 120 or so different nations would exclude trans persons just on that basis alone.  So your left with something between 10 to 20 realistic choices.

And ignoring UN declarations is pretty much a world-wide hobby.

Quote from: Cindy Stephens on December 10, 2010, 09:37:56 AM
... many people here believe that the UN is a communist organization hell bent on destroying Capitalism, Christianity and The GOD BLESSED U.S.A. while pursuing a homosexual agenda.

Ooooh.... Where can I sign up? ;D

Any office of the Democratic Party if you ask them.

Actually, the US has a rich history of people banding together and establishing their own communities.  From the Shakers, Amish, Unida (and other socialist orgs), Muslim Brotherhood.  Check out communitarianism and co-housing orgs.  I have always wanted to work something like that.  The Vietnamese who came here brought a system of self-help where an established group would raise you up, (after proving your ability and desire to work hard) and then expect you to join the group and contribute so that others can establish their businesses.  Did you think it was a accident that 100,000 nail shops opened with Vietnamese ownership?  A family from India, the Patels,  have parlayed meager beginnings into a huge motel/hotel empire by using family for employees/owners.  If you have money, you have power.  If you have power, you have freedom.   Get money.

Quote from: Radar on December 10, 2010, 11:04:04 AM
Yet it's not enforced- not even on the state level. In my state transpeople have no protection or special rights. Some cities here enacted protection but if I read it right it's only if your these cities' employees. My city doesn't have this protection. Here we can be fired legally for being trans. There is no hate crime protection here.

Cindy is completely right. The majority of the U.S. is like this. I'm sorry, but the U.S. sucks. The "American Dream" is an illusion. I need to move to another country. Any advice on how to do that?

Illuminati-conspiracy? We're getting lied to people-wake up (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AAcnuvzGQuc#)

Money Masters Part 1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EaHwg7xhueQ#ws)

Evil International Bankers are Running The World (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lyMC3V2f2pI#)

Goes MUCH deeper.   It is WORLD-WIDE.  U.S.A. is the leading-edge of it.   :-\

Ralph Nader killed the Corvair so why don't transsexuals have any rights?