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I know this (Susan's) probably isn't the best forum to post on, but I feel more at home here than on some other forums that cater to more specifically atheist viewpoints.

I'm an atheist and have been for, well, over a decade.  Which may not seem long, but I'm only 28, so . . . but anyway, it shouldn't happen like this.

I've taken up going to lunch weekly with some co-workers.  I usually have a lot of fun and it's good to network. 

However, at least one of them is really really religious (missions to China, etc.); which is fine.  Whatever.  Not my bag, baby.   Freedom of religion and ir-religion. 

We all got to in the missionary's car for an off-the-clock and off-site lunch and he had some Christian "rock" playing.  Someone else in the group, not the missionary person, said, "Well, we're all Christians in this car, right."

I zoned out.  Instantly.  Before I knew what I was even doing I was gone.  Not even there.  You could have poked me and I would have maybe, just maybe, grunted.  Pure fear and cowardice.  You figure: I drive a car with a Darwin fish on it . . . but I still freeze.

Fine, you know, we're at the restaurant, I'm eating some awesome enchiladas, and, as conversations tend to be circular and self-referential, that exact same line came around again.  I zone out AGAIN; I stared for about 2 minutes at some blinking Jalapino (sp) pepper Christmas lights.  One of them was burnt out.

I feel like I need to tell them that I am not a Christian. 

My personal view is that religion is actually harmful to humanity, but I intend to neither persuade them to that point of view or dissuade them from their own as long as they show the same respect to me.  If they want an opinion or argument, they'll get it, but I'm surely not going to bring that subject up on my own accord. 

Politics and religion are, 9/10 times, not good to talk about at work (or family), even if you agree with the person.  I've lost a lot of respect for people because of their stupid and ignorant comments during conversations.  Those conversations are what the Internet is for.  :D  And friends, if you have them.

The thing is that this is a really small company, and I know if I tell them, it'll get out.  I've just started working there.  This area is still red state territory even if I'm in a blue state.  While I know they cannot legally fire me for being an atheist, they still may fire me for something pointedly not-relevant.  Do I think that will happen?  No, do I fear it will?  You bet I do.

Atheist and transgendered: two different closets, similar consequences. 

Does anyone else just go away when something like that is brought up?  It happens to me when someone brings up transgender or sexual orientations, too, but less severely.  How am I going to actually come out to the world as genderqueer/androgynous when I cannot even talk about these fundamental parts of my existence?  I'm more upset with myself than with my lunch-mates.

Erm -- well -- you could learn to PASS as a Christian, I guess...

...not very funny, is it?

I'd agree with your assessment of the danger to your job.  I'll leave it to others here to offer you advice on how to 'fit in'.  You may want to consider documenting events that happen to you at that company which could be motivated by their religious intolerance.  If you are sacked, a good attorney could use that material to sue them for discrimination.

That's about all the advice I can offer you.

:icon_hug: :icon_hug: :icon_hug: :icon_hug: :icon_hug: :icon_hug:
Here's hoping it turns out to be nothing at all...

Karen

Bea,

Another thought would be to simply say that you don't care for contemporary Christian music.  Personally, I find most contemporary Christian too sweet for me - almost to the point of putting me into sugar shock!  And this is speaking as a Christian.

There will be times when you will have to tollerate it, just as there are times when someone will have to tollerate what you want to listen to.

But there is nothing wrong - or "outing" - with asking to listen to something different.  Just say you don't care for it.

Chaunte

Oh... this is easy.  Put up with their banter and talk.  If the conversation comes to you, tell them that you don't talk politics or religion at work.  Since you need to work with them professionally, you want to take no chances that either of these will stand in the way of getting work done.  Once your preferences are known, they may surprise you and quit talking of religion around you. It's been known to happen before.

The music?  If it is offensive to you, just ask them to turn it down or off.  If asked why, just say you don't enjoy that sort of music.  You can tell them which kind of music that you do like. Religion does not have to be discussed.

Okay... next question...

Chin up

Cindi

Been there, done that.

I've worked in a small office of around twenty people for sixteen years now. Everyone there is very, very christian, where much of the small talk revolves around attending church and church activities. Everyone sends their kids to parochial schools. Company gatherings and events generally start with prayers thanking Jesus and whatnot. The company itself keeps religion seperate - it's not like there are crosses around the building or anything - but the people do bond together with their shared religious views.

Then there's ME.

After a decade or so, I started to feel like a fraud. By never correcting them, by always going along with the flow, I was passively telling them Me Too. I felt as if I was deceiving them, being dishonest, both to them AND me.

So... I just start correcting people now and then. Nothing confrontational, no formal "coming out," just if the situation arose where it was obvious I was being considered a christian, I'd just smile and say, "hey, you KNOW I'm not christian, right?" I'd just try to mention it casually, as if I'd assumed they knew all along anyway.

And you know what? No one reacted poorly. In fact, they usually showed a genuine interest in learning what I DO believe, attempting to avoid future misunderstandings.

The only downside to it is people kinda tiptoe around me during holidays, stumbling over whether to wish me "Merry Christmas!" and that sorta thing. And I cringe a bit when company outings start with, "We thank thee Jesus...," wondering if everyone is uncomfortable having a heathen in their house.

But overall, I'm glad I said something, and proud of myself for being true to my beliefs.

BUT... I got away with it. Had I been fired, I'd probably be singing a different tune :) Errr... hymm ;)

While I don't work... I kind of live in a Christian community and it really bothers me seeing as I'm an atheist. My friends and parents would all kill me if they found out... well most of them would anyways. That's a really comfortable feeling. :-\

Hi Beatrix/Dan,

  Thanks for your post.  It IS interesting how this is sort of analogous to being transgender.  First, know that I am a Christian, so this may sort of be like a FTM giving thoughts to a MTF.  However, some things should still be the same even though we're on different sides of the spectrum.

Even though statistics show the majority of people in the U.S. claim to be Christians, in certain situations I have found myself feeling that people would think less of me / lose respect / dislike me / etc if/when they found out I am a Christian.  My work place is also not a place where religion is usually discussed.  I still don't know whether some of my coworkers are religious or not.  But the bottom line is, you can't simply cease being who you are, and for most people, continuing to be dishonest to yourself or others about who you are is quite an unhappy and unhealthy situation.  However, as with almost everything, there are compromises to be made.  Usually I find there is a way to be myself and/or become more comfortable with a situation that I dislike, without having to overtly blurt out my "secret." (This goes for both being a Christian and being TG.)  If there is no way to do that, then you have to ask yourself which you value more - in this case, will it be your perceived freedom to act according to your beliefs, or your status at your job?  That is something only you can answer.

For what it's worth, in general I dislike making people uncomfortable by overtly sharing my Christian beliefs with them, unless they asked for it in some fashion - especially if I'm not a close friend.  I don't even pray before a meal if I think it will make someone at the table uncomfortable.  Of course, that doesn't stop me from putting my faith into action - I think it is usually possible to show people I care, try to be encouraging in ways they will appreciate, answer their questions about Christianity to the best of my ability - without being offensive or annoyingly evangelical.  Perhaps some Christians don't feel the same way, but at least some do.  Of course, Red/blue, christian/atheist, we differ fundamentally in some ways, and some of our beliefs may just be inherently disagreeable to each other.  But it doesn't usually mean we have to be hostile about it; at (hopefully rare) times it may become necessary to offend someone, but usually I think offending someone is counterproductive.

All the best,
Joseph

Quoteat (hopefully rare) times it may become necessary to offend someone, but usually I think offending someone is counterproductive.

There is a difference between offending someone, and someone taking offense.  Sometimes, someone will inevitably take offense.

However, it is never necessary to offend someone.

I am spiritual, but I don't hold affiliation to any particular religion.  I can find the good and the bad in any religion, and prefer a smörgåsbord approach -- a little here, a little there, I don't like this so I won't take it again...

I respect another persons' religion.  I'll show interest, because I stand to learn something (even if it's not necessarily what the person expects or intends me to learn.)  If someone is not pushy/preachy/judgmental about their religion -- doesn't try to force it on me either overtly or otherwise and will refrain when it's plain I'm not interested in that topic now -- I'm much more likely to listen.

However, I do not like dealing with proselytizers, converters, or those who are auditioning for their own personal Satan.  When I say, "Thank you -- No."  I mean No.  End of discussion, because to me this is no longer a discussion between two equals.

So, I would also feel uncomfortable if a group of people all said, "Hey!  We're all Christians here!"  It's like in the locker room where its safe to indulge in misogynistic bigotry because there's no ******s around to get all huffy about about a(n abusive) JOKE!, f'r crissake... (Other examples are rooms-full of racists, holocaust deniers, etc.)

But, yes, I see the difference between my taking offense and someone deliberately offending me.

Karen

I am not a spiritual person by any stretch of the imagination.  Fitting in can be a problem especially into a small group.  Small group dynamics are tough to work through even more so for a new comer.  It really doesn't matter what the topic may be the problem of conforming to the group and their schtick is tough.

I when I first started in my present position the group was extremely macho and obscene language was the norm, f__k this f__k, that, a__hole this and a__hole that.  Not what I was used to and not what I liked.  It would have been easy to do like wise but I've never compromised my beliefs, morals whatever, and I wasn't going to start now.   I simply joined in but never swore.  Politics and municipal issues can be a lightning rod, are often discussed and of course the boss has her view and generally speaking everyone else goes along with it, except me.  I have no problem in disagreeing with her and the others, and I simply state my opinion and why.  Again it's a question of never compromising my values and beliefs.

Of course the biggest issue is this one where religion comes up.  Again I've never compromised my beliefs, as far as the music issue is concerned the same applies.  If the music is too loud then I would ask to have turned down a little.  If it wasn't then I would simply put up with it, it's no big deal.  As far as someone saying "We're all christian, right!" that's easy.  Simply state with a big smile "Hey not everyone".  The other thing to do is to actively take part in their discussions, and ask them why they feel the way they feel as this will show them that you respect their views and opinions.  Never be afraid to express your views and opinions, but do so in a tactful, respectful, amiable way.  Don't ever let it become adversarial, if it looks like it's going that way then simply state "OK, lets agree to disagree" and leave it at that.  It won't happen over night but in time they will start to respect you and your views and they will become aware of where you stand.

Never live a lie, have the courage of your convictions, respect others, their views and opinions and they will do likewise - eventually.

Steph

In my last position, I managed an engineering development team with members from diverse walks of life.  We had members from five major faiths.  While I never allowed religious discussion during work hours, I encouraged it during our lunch breaks.  Everyone was very civil and we were able to learn a great deal from each other.  The educational benefits of learning each other'fs culture were an immense benefit to me and the rest of the group. 

I learned a great deal about Jewish, Islam, Budism, and the Hindi religions.  I definitely feel that we should be teaching a course in high school on world religions.  If we were to understand the faith of other peoples, I'm sure our "fear" of them would be greatly diminished.  If every person had to learn something of other peoples, we'd have a lot less hate in the world.

Cindi

Here is my own snarky opinion on this matter.

I don't take two seconds of crap from Christians. I think their views are unreasonable, and I furthermore think Christianity is the most hateful and murderous religion alive.

I refuse to have their hocus-pocus thrust upon me. It's so annoying to me how these people assume everyone believes their voodoo. When they inevitably DO thrust it upon me, I make it abundantly clear that I don't subscribe to their beliefs.

Our Constitution protects us from Christian tyrany, and I make no qualms ever about making it clear that I will have no part in a public spectacle of private belief.

Brianna

Quote from: Brianna on January 06, 2007, 02:43:16 PM
I don't take two seconds of crap from Christians...
Our Constitution protects us from Christian tyrany...
Brianna

I am glad that the constitution protects the rights of everyone to practice his or her own faith at any time, private or public.  This is called "free exercise."  Look it up.  I am also glad our constitution protects all from religious bigotry such as that espoused above.
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The Constitution ABSOLUTELY does not "protect the rights of everyone to practice his or her own faith at any time, private or public."

It says "Government may make no law requiring the establishment of religion." This means freedom of religion, but also freedom FROM religion.

If there is another group in America trying to MAKE THE GOVERNMENT ESTABLISH RELIGION other than Christianity, I am unaware of it.

Bri

Nice observations about religion vs non religion.

Quote from: Brianna on January 06, 2007, 04:19:27 PM
It says "Government may make no law requiring the establishment of religion." This means freedom of religion, but also freedom FROM religion.   If there is another group in America trying to MAKE THE GOVERNMENT ESTABLISH RELIGION other than Christianity, I am unaware of it.
Bri

Not quite.  The First Amendment reads, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof."  This word "respecting" could be today rendered as "concerning."  In other words, it's not something congress can consider.  The original intent was to make sure that there was no official state church, like happened in the Church of England.  I'm sure that we both agree this is a good thing, no matter what your beliefs may be.

Please note that your phrase, "freedom from religion," is nowhere in the constitution.  It is, however, a popular buzzword with the radical left.  But it is not constitutional.  I fully support your right to be of whatever faith you desire, even if it is of no faith.  But my support of you does not extend to denying others the right to practice their religion.  If you don't like their religion, fine.  Don't participate.  Feel free to have your opinions, even spread them in whatever forum you wish.  But in our country you are not free to spread hatred.  And you are nowhere guaranteed that at no time in your life will you encounter someone else practicing their faith as they personally believe.  Put simply, since I support your right to believe, it is only fair that you support mine.  Else your objections are totally groundless.  For a good, educational, unbiased discussion, I like this page from a secular law school:
http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/conlaw/estabinto.htm

You talk about a group in America trying to MAKE THE GOVERNMENT ESTABLISH RELIGION, and identify them as "Christianity."  First, Christianity is not a group but a religion.  There are many groups, or denominations, within Christianity with widely divergent views.  Perhaps there are some whackos on the radical right, who might want to do that, but not most of the mainstream.  On the other hand, there are some things you do seem to enjoy which are part of Christianity, whether you know it or not.  Read about John Calvin and John Knox, the two great Christian reformers in Geneva and Scotland.  From them come the principles of religious freedom, representative democracy, and checks and balances.  In fact, when our new constituition was first displayed, one of the principle objections was that it was a "presbyterian"  form of government, meaning representative democracy.  Read about Dietrich Bonhoeffer, the German Lutheran pastor who led the beginnings of the revolt against Adolph Hitler and the Nazi party.  Although he was killed for his work, much of his work survives, incuding the Barmen Declaration, which is one of the most incredible documents written supporting the separation of church and state.  Here is an exerpt:

"We reject the false doctrine that beyond its special commission the State should and could become the sole and total order of human life and so fulfil the vocation of the Church as well.

"We reject the false doctrine that beyond its special commission the Church should and could take on the nature, tasks and dignity which belong to the State and thus become itself an organ of the State."

Guess where these teaching came from????  From scripture.  If you have the courage and honesty, read it yourself:  http://www.ucc.org/faith/barmen.htm

So when you criticize and spew hatred and misinformation about Christianity, realize that the reason you have the freedom to do so is because of the concepts brought to this country by your Christian forefathers and foremothers.  This is not an opinion, but a matter of historical record. 

Just as one contrast:  I have also spent time in Arab countries where Islam is the official religion.  By and large the difference is that people are not free to criticize, not free to think or to challenge the established norm.  Women's roles are tightly defined and the husbands are the god of the family.  How well would you, or any TS survive that?  Be honest and compare the results.  Now to be fair I have Muslim friends from other parts of the world who have shown me a totally different side of Islam. 

I know I've read some of what you have written about your upbringing, and it sounds disgusting.  I truly wish I had a way of making that pain go away.   But I'm all out of miracles tonight.  And every chance you get you dredge up that hurt and spew it out here against people who don't deserve it.  That's historically, intellectually, spiritually, and emotionally unfair.  You are a beautiful girl and you don't wear hatred and intolerance very well. 

Now as to the problem voiced by beatrix/dan, I hope that you will have the courage to speak up.  It is obvious that it was thought that you were part of the crowd.  I am sure it was very unomfortable for you and I feel for you.  However, if they know your position and then continue to make everything a spiritual conversation, then it borders on abuse.  Your outlook sounds very respectful and very fair.  I can't imagine it would be disrespected.  It certainly wouldn't offend me.

Peace all,
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fganjataz.com%2F01smileys%2Fimages%2Fsmileys%2FloopyBlonde-blinking.gif&hash=4545ddf8251cf9c32ae6074d56e48bc34a755857)Kristi

Very well said Kristi.

                       I too feel there has been too much hatred tossed about here lately.





beth

Kristi,

One of the main things I learned in college is that it's easier to use emotions than logic. I know I'm guilty of that, but I feel like you beth are making this logical error as well.

I agree with everything, absolutely everything, you said in your post. I don't hate Christians, and I don't want them to not have the ability to practice their religion. What I do want is for them to completely free of them pushing their influence into the public square.

I think you are making a beautiful argument, but I think it's irrelevant to what mainstream Christians are doing in America. They are trying to put the 10 commandments in court houses, demonize gays and enforce their alleged "moral" agenda. I want this nonsense completely out of the public square.

I'd love a day where we could all get in a car with a coworker knowing that religion was a private enough thing to to never mention.

Lastly, think it's unfair when I hear Christians talk about how superior their religion is to the Muslim religion. In regards to practiced religion in America, I think that Muslims are a much less dangerous and less violent - ie. not supporting the multitude of American war crimes.

Bri

QuoteI don't hate Christians, and I don't want them to not have the ability to practice their religion. What I do want is for them to completely free of them pushing their influence into the public square.

How does that differ from this?

"I don't hate blacks, and I don't want them to not have the ability to be themselves. What I do want is for them to completely free of them pushing their influence into the public square."

            It sounds the same to me.  I don't have a dog in the christian fight but some of the comments allowed here would not be allowed if they were describing other groups instead of describing christians. People are intimidated and have left this forum because of this. It isn't right and I for one will call it what it is every time I see it from now on.


beth

Quote from: beth on January 06, 2007, 11:05:32 PM

QuoteI don't hate Christians, and I don't want them to not have the ability to practice their religion. What I do want is for them to completely free of them pushing their influence into the public square.

How does that differ from this?

"I don't hate blacks, and I don't want them to not have the ability to be themselves. What I do want is for them to completely free of them pushing their influence into the public square."

            It sounds the same to me.  I don't have a dog in the christian fight but some of the comments allowed here would not be allowed if they were describing other groups instead of describing christians. People are intimidated and have left this forum because of this. It isn't right and I for one will call it what it is every time I see it from now on.


beth

Sure it's the same... if you believe religious/non-religious preference isn't a choice like skin color, gender identity or sexual orientation. Christianity has had it's positive effects, but it has also done alot of damage to our world, our country and my life. I would strongly appreciate a secular government where laws are based on justice instead of a book full of myths. I would strongly appreciate a country where an atheist can be president. Many christians moan and groan about how their beliefs aren't tolerated, but as long as the christian belief system contains so much intolerance for others I hope I never live to see the day their beliefs are no longer challenged. I was raised on christianity I memorized more of the bible and spent more hours studying it than I care to remember. It's a doctrine of hatred that should have the same place in civilized society as the KKK to continue you're comparison.

Quote from: Brianna on January 06, 2007, 10:29:47 PM
Kristi,

One of the main things I learned in college is that it's easier to use emotions than logic. I know I'm guilty of that, but I feel like you beth are making this logical error as well.

I agree with everything, absolutely everything, you said in your post. I don't hate Christians, and I don't want them to not have the ability to practice their religion. What I do want is for them to completely free of them pushing their influence into the public square.

Hi Brianna!  First, thanks for answering my post.  I think this is the first time you've done so, and I really appreciate it.  One of the things I learned in my 11 1/2 years of college (that's right...in some circles I'm  called doc) was to never judge a doctrine or a system of belief by the way some people abuse it.  Christianity, Judaism, and virtually every other religion, down to some I've encountered in remote parts of Africa, has been abused in the past.  And they probably will be in the future.  But this is not how I judge a doctrine or belief.  This is not emotionalism.  It is intellectual honesty.

I do stand by what I said in the earlier post that I support everyone's right to practice his/her religion in private and in public.  That includes you.  And it includes Christians with whom I differ and those with whom I agree.  And I feel free to form alliances with those of different faiths when appropriate.  The truth is that we vote for people who represent our values, at least as often as we can.  Right?  So why should we not expect people of all persuasions to be politically active?  That's the beauty and the curse of the country in which we live.  I don't think I would have it any other way.

How awesome to see that we do agree on some things.  I hope this will give us some common ground to have some genuine discussions.  ;D

Quote from: Brianna on January 06, 2007, 10:29:47 PM
I think you are making a beautiful argument, but I think it's irrelevant to what mainstream Christians are doing in America. They are trying to put the 10 commandments in court houses, demonize gays and enforce their alleged "moral" agenda. I want this nonsense completely out of the public square.

Well, it's precisely not irrelevant to mainstream Chritianity, or, more properly, mainline Christianity, which still comprises the vast majority of Christians in this country.  It appears to me that, even so, you may never have encountered it if the things I say sound strange to you.  The truth is, it's not flashy, and often not newsworthy.  If you are unsure as to what that means let me know and I'll say more.  Don't we usually hear mostly about either the radical right or the radical left?  I personally think both extremes are a bit dangerous.

Most of the ones I've met who want to put either a Bible or the 10 commandments in the courthouse want to do it as a historical monument of some kind, along with great legal codes from a host of other cultures.  I, for one, don't want to see the secular government be forced to subscribe to any religion.  Even if it's mine, it could easily backfire as soon as the political winds change.  No thanks!   But neither do I want to see our history revised to the point where we cannot be honest about the historical facts.  So this is a touchy one.

Quote from: Brianna on January 06, 2007, 10:29:47 PM
I'd love a day where we could all get in a car with a coworker knowing that religion was a private enough thing to to never mention.

On this we mostly agree.  But neither would I want to be prohibited from having honest religious discussions with those who want to do so.  That, to me would be the worst form of oppression.  I think a better answer would be the freedom to discuss without the fear of retribution or hatred.

Quote from: Brianna on January 06, 2007, 10:29:47 PM
Lastly, think it's unfair when I hear Christians talk about how superior their religion is to the Muslim religion. In regards to practiced religion in America, I think that Muslims are a much less dangerous and less violent - ie. not supporting the multitude of American war crimes.

Well, this is another topic completely and one we could discuss if we wanted to, though I would suggest a separate topic.  Islam is a vastly multifaceted religion, difficult for most Americans to understand.  I know the media doesn't get it.  And I have Muslim friends.  But there are some real dangers there within some sects.  Again, this would be a LONG exposition.

Quote from: Brianna on January 06, 2007, 10:29:47 PM
I don't hate Christians, and I don't want them to not have the ability to practice their religion.

OK, I'll take your word for that.  And I may remind you of it in the future.  But I will just say that it SOUNDS like you hate all Christians and are rather proud of that fact.  I don't think we need to perpetuate hatred towards anyone, intended or not, anywhere public or private.

Thanks again, Bri!(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg118.exs.cx%2Fimg118%2F1691%2Fhug8ok.gif&hash=a05513990393a2f8d60e5b48189a9b5abcc1501e)

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But Beth, blacks are not  "trying to put the 10 commandments in court houses, demonize gays and enforce their alleged "moral" agenda."   ;)

Unfortunately, there are zealots who really are pushing a very intolerant political agenda.  They have used our own intolerant bigotry to sway elections by introducing the anti gay marraige bill in states where elections were too close to call in advance. Intolerance is being pushed around the world under the guise of two major faiths.  I won't call them Christians and Muslims (although they proclaim themselves to be so), I'll only refer to them as zealots.  For they do not represent all who call themselves Christians and Muslims.  The true doctrine of any "children of the Book" is one of peace and tolerance.  In practice it is different.

I too had a strong hatred towards my conservative Mormon faith and upbringing for many years after my transition.  I had been hurt badly and that is a painful wound to heal.  Bri and I share that experience in common.  But there is this other political aspect to religious views we are seeing scripted. Tens of thousands of lives are being lost to this intolerance.  It is more than unsettling to say the least.  

Bri will somehow learn to live with her past and perhaps someday forgive those who have hurt her as I have (for the most part).  But neither she nor I can ever give in to the intolerance and bigotry being expressed from the public pulpit, religious or political.  

So, my rift isn't necessarily with the world's great religions, it's the zealots performing their intolerant crimes in the name of their religion.  Unfortunately, zealots and their religions get mixed into the same bag by the populace.  We here in the states generally have a negative view of Muslims around the world for pushing their intolerant attitudes.  In Muslim countries, they feel the same way about the United States (or Christians).

When I am confronted by someone who wants to "share" their religious feelings, I am completely open to listening.  When they want to convert me, I am not.  I am very cordial about it and I don't believe that I offend anyone.  But when it comes to the intolerance being spewed in the name of God against us, any other minority, or people,  I become enraged and indignant.

Bri shows her righteous indignation in a very blunt form.  Unfortunately, her words can be inflamatory, not separating the good and quiet people who are models of their faith from those who stand out in moving the political direction of our country.  Yes, those are the zealots performing their devious works under the name of their religion.  And in that, most of the country is guilty of the same darned thing.

We are extremely fortunate to have people like Beth and Kristi here to lend a bit of tempured maturity to the conversation.  As they have correctly pointed out, it is usually inappropriate to assign atrocity blame to any macro group, for the the culprits are typically in the minority.  To do so makes us guilty of the same thing for which we are whining.

However, we need the ferver and conviction that Bri brings to the conversation.  Without that bite, we will allow ourselves to be stomped on and enslaved.  We will totally lose our rights if we do not keep up the fight.

So Bri, consider your words a bit more carefully, but keep up the spunky attitude.  Beth and Kristi, please keep those words of consolidation and patience coming.  I'm sure that you help many of us ponder these issues a bit more carefully.

And for everyone else who sits on the fence and does nothing, you will lose.  You can't win if you don't play.

Chin up!

Cindi

Quote from: Cindianna_Jones on January 06, 2007, 11:59:58 PM
But Beth, blacks are not  "trying to put the 10 commandments in court houses, demonize gays and enforce their alleged "moral" agenda."   ;)

Actually, Cindi, in my city, that's where the main groundswell of support is coming from.  But like everythihg else, be careful not to make generalizations.  Generally, you are wrong if you do.  ;)

Quote from: Cindianna_Jones on January 06, 2007, 11:59:58 PMUnfortunately, there are zealots who really are pushing a very intolerant political agenda. 

I find those on the far left and the far right both quite intolerant.

Quote from: Cindianna_Jones on January 06, 2007, 11:59:58 PMI too had a strong hatred towards my conservative Mormon faith and upbringing for many years after my transition.  I had been hurt badly and that is a painful wound to heal.

O Cindy, I'm sorry.  I didn't realize that.  It may surprise you to know that I've worked with a number of what we call "Recovering Mormons" over the years.  You have my sympathy (but not my pity...you're too strong to need pity).

Quote from: Cindianna_Jones on January 06, 2007, 11:59:58 PMAnd in that, most of the country is guilty of the same darned thing.

Hmmm, I think that's a bit too strong.

Quote from: Cindianna_Jones on January 06, 2007, 11:59:58 PMWe are extremely fortunate to have people like Beth and Kristi here to lend a bit of tempured maturity to the conversation. 

[blushes]

Quote from: Cindianna_Jones on January 06, 2007, 11:59:58 PMSo Bri, consider your words a bit more carefully, but keep up the spunky attitude.

Couldn't have said it better.  A friend of mine told me that changing public opinion is a lot like having sex:  If you have the passion, you'll find the method.  Do keep up the spunk.  I look forward to seeing what happens when it is used in a constructive, rather than a destructive method.

P.S. Still wanna hear about the guitar you play....
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.clanforen.de%2Fclanforen%2Fimages%2Fsmilies%2Fsmilies031205%2Fbackin.gif&hash=7d92698bcdc8ce143371e0c7d4d4a809f0c608c9)

Peace,
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fganjataz.com%2F01smileys%2Fimages%2Fsmileys%2FloopyBlonde-blinking.gif&hash=4545ddf8251cf9c32ae6074d56e48bc34a755857)Kristi

I discussed this post in detail with my puppy "hunny" and she thinks that we are not tuned in enough to offer anything of value, considering all of you have enriched this post with good information, passion, emotion, facts, and opinons!
Hunny and i will just peek in and read along..
that's all we have to add, oh ........Woof!
Oh ...play nice or i'll get my heavy duty kitchen aid mixer out and then it'll get rough, hehe.....
Ricki

Indeed Kristi, generalizations are generally wrong.  In terms of far left... I don't really think that it exists any more.  The real Communists (the Marxist type, not the dictatorship type) would be what I consider far left.  If you talk to those who are considered these days "far left", you may find them surprisingly in line with what was considered moderate in the early 60's.  Take a look at Ike.  He was Republican, yet now, he might be considered a lefty these days.  

I posted my guitar info in another thread in the appropriate forum.

https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,9159.msg65989.html#msg65989

Cindi

Quote from: VeryGnawty on January 06, 2007, 07:27:58 AM

Quoteat (hopefully rare) times it may become necessary to offend someone, but usually I think offending someone is counterproductive.

There is a difference between offending someone, and someone taking offense.  Sometimes, someone will inevitably take offense.

However, it is never necessary to offend someone.

I may agree; this may be an issue of semantics.  In those "hopefully rare" times, you can be gentle and respectful about it, but it may be necessary to say something to which you know the person will inevitably take offense.  An example we can probably agree on: if I know someone struggles with pedophilia, and is paying what, in my opinion, is too much unwarranted attention to a kid, I might caution that person in some way.  I may know there is a very good chance he will take offense, but if I think it's necessary for the safety of the kid, I will still say something.

Quote from: Kristi on January 07, 2007, 06:07:59 PM

Quote from: Cindianna_Jones on January 06, 2007, 11:59:58 PMUnfortunately, there are zealots who really are pushing a very intolerant political agenda. 

I find those on the far left and the far right both quite intolerant.

The "intolerance" spoken of here is, I believe, the result of people have differing standards of morality.  It also seems that legislating morality is somewhat unavoidable.  In the U.S., freedom doesn't mean you can go do whatever you want, because laws constrain our behavior, putting things into "acceptable" or "unacceptable" buckets.  These laws were put in place because of someone's moral convictions, regardless of whether they came from religious or secular beliefs. (If there are exceptions, feel free to point them out. I just can't think of one right now.)  The problem is that people have differing views on whose morality should be legislated.  On hot topic issues, all sides seem to accuse others of having a political "agenda" and seem frustrated that "gosh! They just don't get IT, do they?"  I think these articles say it pretty well:

http://volokh.com/archives/archive_2005_05_29-2005_06_04.shtml#1117549260 (http://volokh.com/archives/archive_2005_05_29-2005_06_04.shtml#1117549260)
http://volokh.com/archives/archive_2005_05_29-2005_06_04.shtml#1117638505 (http://volokh.com/archives/archive_2005_05_29-2005_06_04.shtml#1117638505)

I haven't read a lot of Eugene Volokh, but from what I've read, he seems quite lucid.  A few quotes from his articles:

Quote
Ah, but at least you're forcing moral views on others, not forcing religious views on them, some say. So what? How is (1) someone's gut feeling that an eight-month old fetus is so much like a baby that surely it shouldn't be killed a more legitimate basis to write laws than (2) someone's deduction from the Bible that any fetus can't be killed? For that matter, how is a secular moral axiom that born babies are as entitled to live as we are a more legitimate basis to write laws than a religious moral axiom to the same effect?

All of us draw lines in this field, whether at conception, viability, birth, or whenever else. None of us can prove the validity of those lines through science or through abstract logic.

Quote
Whether the backers of such prohibitions support the prohibitions for religious reasons or secular moral reasons, the prohibitions interfere with some women's decision to abort a fetus late in the pregnancy.
...
Yet such justifications do restrict our conduct. I don't see why religious people's justifications, based on their religious axioms, should be condemned as illegitimate, while nonreligious people's nonreligiously based justifications, based on their secular axioms, are somehow proper.

Thoughts?

Joseph

p.s. Mods - we seem to have strayed from the intention of the original post. Feel free to put this post in a different thread if that's the right thing to do.

i don't believe in any religion because of the teachings and contradictions in the holy scriptures (muslim, jewish and christian), the holocaust, the crusades, the thing that islamic extremists are supposed to be doing, also it's very unrealistic.
i read about the origins of the bible and it seemed so man made that i realized that it was not the [word of god] but man.
i further realized that the only way there could be a god was if he/she were a sadistic being who liked seeing the drama that unfolds in our planet.

Quote from: katia on January 08, 2007, 12:36:58 AMthat i realized that it was not the [word of god] but man.

Oh really? And just how did you realize this? If you choose to make incendiary statements such as this, kindly cough up some facts to back them up.

Quote from: Nero on January 08, 2007, 12:49:30 AM

Quote from: katia on January 08, 2007, 12:36:58 AMthat i realized that it was not the [word of god] but man.

Oh really? And just how did you realize this? If you choose to make incendiary statements such as this, kindly cough up some facts to back them up.

How is her opinion any more incendiary than an opinion that a religion is true and one of those books does represent the word of a god? I would like to see some facts proving a certain religious text is in fact the word of a god. Supernatural claims require supernatural proof.

Quote from: Nero on January 08, 2007, 12:49:30 AM

Quote from: katia on January 08, 2007, 12:36:58 AMthat i realized that it was not the [word of god] but man.

Oh really? And just how did you realize this? If you choose to make incendiary statements such as this, kindly cough up some facts to back them up.

it wasn't an [incendiary] statement. i'm entitled to my own opinions and beliefs as anyone else, sorry if it bothered you but it's what i believe. 
my [coughed up] facts or resources and there are many more if anyone bothers to look to [back themselves up]

http://www.nvcc.edu/home/lshulman/Bible.html

I don't mind if people have high moral standards.  That's good.  But when they infringe upon my rights or others.... like when they KILL them, I tend to get a little upset.  And when they sit all prim and proper and spew religious values to support their acts of killing, I get sick.

I heard my husband tell someone once "you must be religious person".  To which this fellow responded "Why yes I am, how did you know?"  My husband response was "because you are telling me how I should live my life."

I believe that everyone who posts here is for the most part very tolerant and willing to discuss many issues without getting upset. That's one of the reasons I really like this forum.  People have open minds and are willing to disagree and state their case.

Cindi

Is the Bible True? - A Remarkable Book
Is the Bible true? Certainly the Bible is a remarkable book -- unquestionably the world's all-time bestseller with countless millions of copies in print. A single Bible distribution organization reported delivering over 627,000,000 Bibles worldwide in one year alone (United Bible Societies, 1999). Actually, the Bible is a compilation of 66 books written by over 40 separate authors from a variety of backgrounds (from lowly peasants to noble kings) over a period of at least 1,600 years. These 66 books are divided in two principle parts, the "Old Testament" (39 books) and the "New Testament" (27 books). The Bible was completed in its entirety nearly 2,000 years ago and stands today as the best-preserved literary work of all antiquity with over 24,000 ancient New Testament manuscripts discovered thus far. Compare this with the second best-preserved literary work of antiquity, Homer's Iliad, with only 643 preserved manuscripts discovered to date.

Is the Bbile true? Many brilliant people deny that the Bible is true, so obviously sheer intelligence is not the key to faith in the Bible. It does take faith to believe.
Jillieann

i know of another bestselling book with millions of copies sold worldwide [gone with the wind].
my opinion is that it takes courage to stand up for what you believe in whether it is in [god], or in [NO-god], whether it is [FOR] or [against] religion. if you have something that you believe in you should stand up for it no-matter what people say or do to you.

Quote from: katia on January 08, 2007, 01:06:39 AM

Quote from: Nero on January 08, 2007, 12:49:30 AM

Quote from: katia on January 08, 2007, 12:36:58 AMthat i realized that it was not the [word of god] but man.

Oh really? And just how did you realize this? If you choose to make incendiary statements such as this, kindly cough up some facts to back them up.

it wasn't an [incendiary] statement. i'm entitled to my own opinions and beliefs as anyone else, sorry if it bothered you but it's what i believe. 

I've no problems whatsoever with someone stating their own opinions or beliefs. I take absolutely no issue with someone saying, "I don't believe in the Christian god (or any god at all for that matter)." or saying, "I don't believe the Bible is the word of god, but man."
But you stated that the Bible is not the word of god, as if it were fact. Which is why I asked you to produce some.

Quote from: Nikki_W on January 08, 2007, 12:57:51 AM

How is her opinion any more incendiary than an opinion that a religion is true and one of those books does represent the word of a god? I would like to see some facts proving a certain religious text is in fact the word of a god. Supernatural claims require supernatural proof.

I don't need facts, as I am not the one touting my personal opinion as fact.

Quote from: katia on January 08, 2007, 12:36:58 AM
i read about the origins of the bible and it seemed so man made that i realized that it was not the [word of god]

Or maybe it is the word of God.

Perhaps we are just lacking in literacy skill.

my original post read:

Quote from: katia on January 08, 2007, 12:36:58 AM
i don't believe in any religion because of the teachings and contradictions in the holy scriptures (muslim, jewish and christian), the holocaust, the crusades, the thing that islamic extremists are supposed to be doing, also it's very unrealistic.
i read about the origins of the bible and it seemed so man made that i realized that it was not the [word of god] but man.
i further realized that the only way there could be a god was if he/she were a sadistic being who liked seeing the drama that unfolds in our planet.

i stated that i didn't believe that the bible was the word of god because of: [the teachings and contradictions in the holy scriptures (muslim, jewish, and christian) after i was asked to [cough up] my source, i provided the following link:
http://www.nvcc.edu/home/lshulman/Bible.html

i could provide many more if i'm asked again.

Quote from: neroI don't need facts

not fair....

Quote from: Nero on January 08, 2007, 09:17:06 AM
I take absolutely no issue with someone saying, "I don't believe in the Christian god (or any god at all for that matter)." or saying, "I don't believe the Bible is the word of god, but man."

Are you sure? because that's exactly what she said.

Quote from: katia on January 08, 2007, 12:36:58 AM
i don't believe...

Quote from: Nikki_W on January 08, 2007, 12:57:51 AM

How is her opinion any more incendiary than an opinion that a religion is true and one of those books does represent the word of a god? I would like to see some facts proving a certain religious text is in fact the word of a god. Supernatural claims require supernatural proof.

I don't need facts, as I am not the one touting my personal opinion as fact.
[/quote]

She didn't even say "fact" she said what she believes and how she came to that opinion. Do non-believers have to lace their sentences with hundreds of careful qualifiers to avoid you taking offense?

Granted I'm new but if this thread is typical of religious views on this site it's very skewed to intolerance of atheists. The way I see it we can't express our views without moderators comparing us with racists or calling our views incendiary.

Is the official stance here that to avoid offending the christians on this site atheists should quietly listen to religious views and not express their own? I can't even talk about my bi- friends at home without being told I shouldn't be friends with them simply because they are bi-. Forget talking about my own religious views, gender identity, or sexual orientation. Pretty sad I come here and find while my identity and orientation are welcomed my atheism should be checked at the door or watered down with so many qualifiers you can't find what I believe for the forest of "I believes".

Nikki, no it is not sad.  There are many here who feel the way you do.  I believe that many of us have become disenfranchised with religious beliefs due to the tough hand we've been dealt by "god". The rub is further chafed by the treatment we get by some groups of religious people. And there are also a few who have come to these conclusions even without those influences.

I don't pronounce my beliefs as atheism.  But I do not believe in the supernatural.  I do not ascribe things I don't understand to a god.  I do feel an intense spiritualism however... call it love for all life and my fellow man.

We had a thread a while back about my non church and many members elected to not be members.  That was pretty fun while it lasted.

We do get discussions of this sort from time to time.  Personally, I enjoy them and I hope that we do not chase anyone away. 

Don't go away!

Cindi

Nikki,

  Please don't go away.  I really agree with what Cindi said here:

Quote from: Cindianna_Jones on January 08, 2007, 01:14:38 AM
I believe that everyone who posts here is for the most part very tolerant and willing to discuss many issues without getting upset. That's one of the reasons I really like this forum.  People have open minds and are willing to disagree and state their case.

Actually, you should know I was totally cracking up when I read all the replies on this thread today.  It wasn't because it was typical.  It was because I totally didn't expect the thread to go the way it did, and that's one reason I like Susan's - people aren't predictable in the boring sort of way.  My guess is the thread might have gone the way it did because every so often people may feel like we've had the bulk of opinions go one way... then people want to make sure the other side (or sides) gets a fair shake.  I'm not saying anyone was wrong in what they did at all; but if you read further on this site, you'll see that opinions vary very widely - some people feel very strongly about religion, and others do not.  Generally, we have heard opinions lately on how religion is the root of evil, etc, and I think sensitivities may have made the thread go in the direction that it went.  Since people know how it is to be stereotyped because we are TG/TS/CD, it seems we generally don't like it when we think other groups may be getting treated similarly.  That's just my guess.  Maybe I'm way off, but it seems reasonable to me right now.  I hope you do choose to browse a bit more and perhaps you'll consider joining our little community.   :)

All the best,
Joseph

Yes, please Nikki stay with us.
Oh and about the Bible being the "Word of God" or the" Word of Man". I think the bible is mostly stories. The book has stories about everyday people with all there struggles and problems. Stories are about great nations, of war, and of love to name a few. There are also songs and poems in the bible expressing people's feelings. Many of the stories are uplifting and others are sad and some are even awful. It tells about tragedy, suffering, death, birth and joy. The Bible stories actually document many of the things that life deals out to many of us.  So yes there are many words in the Bible that have nothing to do with God's "Word's" they have to do with people had believed in him and how they lived there life around that belief. Sometimes they got it right and some times they didn't. Also there are places in the bible where Gods words and his miracles have been written down. But even then it is often written by one author's perspective. (You know how journalists are.) The most important stories have more than one author. Why? I believed to give a better more complete picture about things that are important; that need to be understood and learned from. By the way the most repeated story in the bible is the life and death of Jesus.
I don't know if any of this make sense to you but it is my opinion and what I believe.
You may disagree and I will not be offended.
Katia you are my TS sister no mater what you believe about the bible or God and I will respect your opinion.

Dear Nikki,

I could not agree with your post more. I think generally speaking, that the threads on this forum lean heavily twords the endorsement of religion, and Christianity especially. And I sometimes feel like views that question Christian propeganda, ie "Christians generally love," are met with anger and hostility.

HOWEVER...

The most wondorous thing about estrogen, in my opinion, is that it makes you understand that even when you don't agree with someone - you should respect them. I also think, generally speaking, most transsexual M2F posters here share this value. I think most of us come from the same basic point of agreement - Christian mysticism should be allowed as private expression, but the social dangers are very real.

In any case. This is a great forum, and in my opinion, one of the great things about the Susan's staff is the diversity of our viewpoint. Do you need a Christian ->-bleeped-<-? We've got them. Do you need a F2M with worldly wisdom? Do you need an agnostic, M2F, snarkalicious IRCop Babe? I'm your gal friday.

Welcome to Susans. ;)
Bri

Religion is like blind men trying to describe an elephant.  The blind engineer feels the elephant's trunk and says the elephant is long and strong.  The blind philosopher feels the elephant's leg and claims the elephant is big and wide.  The blind scientist feels the elephant's tail and says the elephant is thin and hairy.

Everyone has a small piece of the truth.  Will we bicker and argue over whose interpretation is the best?  Or will we combine our knowledge to reach true enlightenment?

Uhh, sorry I started all of this.  I go away for a few days and come back and there's a lot of stuff being thrown about, and, it's kind of hard to read all of it in the 15-20 minutes I have alone in the morning during the week to really read Susan's, but I read the first couple pages and I appreciate the advise people have given.  I have a feeling that there is nothing relevant to my post further on.

I didn't get a chance to have lunch with them last week because of a meeting and some money problems for me. 

It's not so much the music as the tacit assumption that everyone is the same.  And, even in this community. where we share at least something (being transgender or a supporter thereof or whatever we want to call ourselves), we can see how divisive our opinions can be.

On to the argument and back again.

It was not the goal to start some religious battle here.  Chances are, none of us are going to convince any of us to change our minds about the subject.  There are apologetics boards all over the 'net for that specifically.  I frequent one or two on rare occasions; maybe I'll see you there.

Like some other minorities, there is a lot of anxiety and nervousness about being an atheist; this is really something that no one knows unless you tell them.  Atheists like myself do not even have behavior patterns that belie that I don't believe.  I just stay in on Sunday, and I vote accordingly, too (Guns & Dope Party '08!). 

My complete lack of respect for theistic beliefs does not translate to a lack of respect for theistic believers.  Despite that I think religion harms a world as connected as we are, I can no more say that all theists are _______ than I can say all ________ are ________.  Get it? 

Stereotypes are stupid (forgive that irony, there) which do not really lead to more knowledge.  Which leads us back to the "we're all christians here" statement.

I just felt kind of alone and was looking for a variety of support here that I know I would not get on an apologetics board.  They would just join in the religion bashing, which is fun sometimes, but not really what I'm looking for now.

Anyway, thanks.

d/b

Quote from: Nikki_W on May 16, 1970, 12:12:18 AM

Granted I'm new but if this thread is typical of religious views on this site it's very skewed to intolerance of atheists.

Exactly, you are new to this site, so you have no way of knowing that the views here tend to lean the other way. I have as much right to defend my beliefs as anyone, mod or no. If someone makes a statement attacking the core of my beliefs, I challenge that statement. I never attack other's beliefs, or make statements about aspects of their religion, claiming to 'know' that the core of their beliefs is wrong.
And yes, it is prudent when stating any opinion, concerning religion or anything else, to use words such as 'opinion' or 'belief', and not simply state something is so.
All religions are welcome here, (yes, including atheism ;)), so stick around.

Nero is right.  The topics are more often skewed the other way.  But that's OK, it doesn't deter me.

Look forward to more of your posts.

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fganjataz.com%2F01smileys%2Fimages%2Fsmileys%2FloopyBlonde-blinking.gif&hash=4545ddf8251cf9c32ae6074d56e48bc34a755857)Kristi

QuoteWe all got to in the missionary's car for an off-the-clock and off-site lunch and he had some Christian "rock" playing.  Someone else in the group, not the missionary person, said, "Well, we're all Christians in this car, right."

I zoned out.  Instantly.  Before I knew what I was even doing I was gone.  Not even there.  You could have poked me and I would have maybe, just maybe, grunted.  Pure fear and cowardice.  You figure: I drive a car with a Darwin fish on it . . . but I still freeze.

I guess I have to agree with you on the fear and cowardice. I see it as you were being asked if you were Christian in the vehicle. There could have been many reasons why that was asked. Perhaps it was to make sure everyone was comfortable with the music. Or future conversation.

You could have said no. Your silence was read as a yes. You could have said no, and I prefer to keep my religious beliefs private. But you stayed silent.

There's a wide range of responses between no and yes. There is potential for peace even within disagreements. They may be shocked to learn that your not Christian, but I doubt it.

I always politely tell people I am not Christian, I do not celebrate Christmas, I do not believe Jesus was the son of God. I do not bring it up. I merely honestly answer and then politely request they move on. I never ask someone about their spirituality, but I will not let them assume something about me that isn't true. Feels better that way.  ;)

Chunk.