Susan's Place Transgender Resources

ALL but absolutely ALL men I TRUELY loved dumped me as soon as they knew I was a transsexual(pre-op), it was even worse when I was still a guy, no men would even look at me. Do you know ANY mtf or any real story as such where a mtf had operated, change all legal papers and got married and the straight man husband never came to know? Many say that if the person truely loves you they'll accept you as you are but my case is becoming narrow now and there's NO ONE but really NO ONE who accepted me as I am for LOVE & MARRIAGE AND ME I CAN'T WAIT ANY LONGER, I'm EXHAUSTED and thirsty of love. Infinite there are for sex and casual but NO ONE WOULD WANNA INVEST in a person who can't bare a child.

Do you know any mtf who MARRIED but NEVER REVEALED she was male before?

yes but she got outed and her husband filed for divorce

One thing I do know is, if you sell yourself short, you'll get short back.

It sounds so like a cliche, but when someone really loves you, it just doesn't matter.

You are what you are, past included. Be up front and honest if a relationship seems to be getting serious.

There is someone out there. You just need to wait till you both bump into each other.

I know that many will say, those sort of people are very rare. Yes, they are. In fact, out of the billions in the world there is only one.

You have to believe that.

Short answer NO. Longer answer - but I know plenty who are happily married anyway.

Most normal decent men will NOT be interested when you are pre-op. There may be exceptions but mostly only fetishists will want someone who is in transition - which isn't a basis for a good relationship.

(EDIT - and because I have four times now had to clarify this point let me point out that I have not been preop since the early 1980's. I rather gather from the four separate replies that things may have moved on now but back then that statement was a fair summary of the attitude prevailing. So please no more telling me that I am being unfair. I can only speak from my own experience which as I have now said to Jocelyn, Jennx, slanan, and VanOcc I accept may be out of date! Besides the above was really merely intended as a side observation - my main point is below...)

Once postop although some men will not be able to cope with it - plenty will, so although you will undoubtedly get a few who turn you down there will be enough who can deal with it to mean that you can be successful.

The important thing is to be up-front before things get too intimate. To do otherwise is dishonest, dangerous and basically means that you don't fully trust your partner, which to me is a totally rubbish way to start a relationship. Sure some people make the choice not to reveal but and awful lot do get outted eventually, and when they do a lot of them end up injured or dead.

I also feel that I would not want to end up in a relationship with a bigot - so if they cant handle transpeople then I wouldn't want them making love to me however attractive they are.

I personally strongly believe that those who choose to withhold this information are very foolish, delusional, and richly deserve the instant dumping that they will almost certainly get if they are found out. I have no sympathy for them whatsoever, but ultimately it is their choice.

Quote from: Sad Girl on January 02, 2011, 11:39:29 AMNO ONE WOULD WANNA INVEST in a person who can't bare a child.

That's just not true.
Men can't bare children, and there are women who can't get pregnant for any number of reasons, who have loving, long term, relationships.

Quote from: Sad GirlDo you know any mtf who MARRIED but NEVER REVEALED she was male before?

Not in person no.
But, I can't see how someone could do that.
I can see why someone might want to, but I can't see how someone could.

I think that the whole dating culture's become rather messed up when people are urged to hide parts of themselves and even go as far as pretend to try and get the other person to like them. It's not a comment on you, or on any of us specifically, but on the whole thing.
I see, on telly, shows where men are given advice as to what to wear, what to talk about, how to be, etc, in order to get the girl to like them, and women are given advice as to what to wear, what to talk about, how to be, etc, in order to get the guy to like them back. And the same shows tell men and women what to avoid, who to walk away from, almost unabashedly. Like black socks in sneakers means the person can't be a good partner for anyone at all. None of these shows press the simple fact that in order to find someone who likes us as we are, we have to present ourselves as we are!
If you present yourself as someone you are not, if you hide a part of who you are, then the love you get isn't for that part you hide, it isn't for "you", it's for the person you've presented.
If you tell someone you like hiking because they look like the hiking part, they might like you more for being a hiker, but if you're not a hiker it's not you they're liking, it's who you're pretending to be, which isn't you..

And yes, once transitioned, the past is the past, but this is "kind of" a big deal to a lot of people. Not because it really changes who you are, but because people are attached to a lot of nonsense notions. We hide this because we believe or know that people will freak out, which means we're deliberately trying to conceal some part of ourselves, something that's shaped our lives in the past and still is with us in some way.

You can be honest and find love. Proper love. For you. Not for "the person I have to pretend to be so that guys will like me", but for you, as who you are.
It can take a while, and you're sure to find some problems 'long the way. But you won't find it unless you are you.

Quote from: Sad Girl on January 02, 2011, 11:39:29 AM
Do you know any mtf who MARRIED but NEVER REVEALED she was male before?

I know two MTFs who are getting married and HAVE revealed that they were assigned the sex 'male' at birth.
I'm one of them.
My fiancé and I are also about to buy a house and start a family - via adoption.
It IS possible to find a guy who will love you despite being MTF and will still want to marry you if you can't bear children.
If you think that you have it bad, imagine what it's like for a severely disabled person to try and find love - or someone with a terminal illness and just wants to be loved before they die.

Ooo me mme me!    i dont know anygirls who is married to men and have not told them there tea(history). I been in the situation where i never told this guy about me and we dated for 2 years! It was sooo exausting!! After that relationship ive decided to just tell them truth...its a whole lot easier and safer. And it will save yourself time. Just think if you got into a serious relationship without telling a guy your history and being upfront and you dated....lets say 5 years...and finally someone outted you or you told him and he left you...thats a waste of 5 years you could have had to find the one that WILL ACCEPT you. :)

I'll speak as an S.O.  I'm so glad my wife told me about her past - it lets me support and love her in a way that I could not if she hadn't.  It also means that she doesn't have to always be "on alert" to keep me from finding out.  I already know - there's no risk to our relationship if someone uses the wrong pronoun or anything else.

Think about the things you'd have to hide.  Things like taking hormones (imagine being in a hospital recovering after a car wreck, when a doctor may slip up and say to the husband what the hormones are for or might not know to give you them - and neither does your husband!).  Things like an old utility deposit being returned to you 15 years later, or a creditor looking for your brother.  Things like property or public records (many of them are google-able).  What if your partner discovers your name change later (it may be public record)?

Of course I was identified correctly at birth as male, so I'm speaking from a position of privilege - and I recognize that.  I would never venture to tell someone to live their own life my way.  But I am very glad my wife told me.  I can love her better because of it.

Quote from: rejennyrated on January 02, 2011, 01:08:39 PM
Most normal decent men will NOT be interested when you are pre-op. There may be exceptions but mostly only fetishists will want someone who is in transition - which isn't a basis for a good relationship.

I don't think this is a fair statement. This may have been the case 20 or 30 years ago, but things really are different now. The younger generation is far more open-minded about these kinds of things. I've dated lesbians that didn't like penises at all, and straight guys that also didn't like penises at all. But, we made it work because it really is just a stupid thing that doesn't matter. In fact, I've never once had my penis be a serious issue at all. Sure, it has kept me out of a few threesomes I would have wanted, but never out of any kind of meaningful emotional connection. I'm also generally only attracted to really open-minded people; people that are usually atheists that passionately support gay rights. I've always been almost exclusively physically attracted to females and been generally repulsed by the penis. However, I would have no problem spending the rest of my life with a male because I really just don't care what genitalia someone has. You can still find fun things to do regardless. There are plenty of other people out there with views just like me; don't let anyone tell you otherwise. You just have to know where and how to look for them.

Quote from: Jocelyn on January 02, 2011, 09:23:03 PM
There are plenty of other people out there with views just like me; don't let anyone tell you otherwise. You just have to know where and how to look for them.

Which makes them sound less plentiful than you are leading us to believe.
These people are not common; if they were, then trans people would have very few problems navigating the world in general.
Jenny's statement stands; you sign up an online dating profile stating that you're trans and let us know what the first question the majority of men ask is.
Hint: "Are you pre-op or post-op?"

Quote from: rejennyrated on January 02, 2011, 01:08:39 PM
Most normal decent men will NOT be interested when you are pre-op. There may be exceptions but mostly only fetishists will want someone who is in transition - which isn't a basis for a good relationship.

I really have to disagree with this one. I'm "pre-op" and I've dated several doctors, lawyers, fire fighters and other "normal decent men" that would 100% contradict this statement. And more than not, most didn't disappear after learning of my "status". I think it has more to do with picking "decent open-minded men" in the first place more than anything else.

I think you have to think of the other person and how THEY will perceive it. Most people wouldn't care if you had a mole before and so it's not necessary to disclose, if you even think or remember to.  I'd probably have forgotten all about it (the mole) and might not disclose because I just hadn't thought about it.  If you think the person would have a huge issue with it, then I think you should tell them.  It's really not fair not to.  He or she maybe be a bigot, but I think they have a right to be and should be given the choice to make their decisions based on the truth.

I had SRS in 1974 and married in 1976. My husband didn't know my medical history and I didn't tell him - I felt it was nobody's business and I had been cured of my birth defect so that was that. He found out after we separated and was mad that I hadn't trusted him enough to tell him - he felt it was "a big deal" and I didn't see it as so important.

I married again in 1980 only this time I told my husband when things got serious. He was not just understanding but very sympathetic to the pain I must have gone through as a child. It turned out to be a good move (telling him) because when my medical history was leaked by a clinic worker, my husband was my biggest defender.

Having gone both ways, which would I do in the future? I  would share the story of my childhood not because it should matter to me or him but because it matters to (some) other people and it would not be fair to him to leave him unprepared for the possible gossip. It is something I do share and it is something "straight guys" have a problem with because it has all been so sensationalized that the medical aspects have been lost. But if even only 1 guy out of 1,000 get it, I would rather be up front and alone than with a guy who could only accept me on a superficial level.

Quote from: Jocelyn on January 02, 2011, 09:23:03 PM
I don't think this is a fair statement. This may have been the case 20 or 30 years ago, but things really are different now. The younger generation is far more open-minded about these kinds of things. I've dated lesbians that didn't like penises at all, and straight guys that also didn't like penises at all. But, we made it work because it really is just a stupid thing that doesn't matter. In fact, I've never once had my penis be a serious issue at all. Sure, it has kept me out of a few threesomes I would have wanted, but never out of any kind of meaningful emotional connection. I'm also generally only attracted to really open-minded people; people that are usually atheists that passionately support gay rights. I've always been almost exclusively physically attracted to females and been generally repulsed by the penis. However, I would have no problem spending the rest of my life with a male because I really just don't care what genitalia someone has. You can still find fun things to do regardless. There are plenty of other people out there with views just like me; don't let anyone tell you otherwise. You just have to know where and how to look for them.

This is a really good point. They type of people we choose to associate with are going to be a big factor in whether or not we're accepted. These are the kinds of people that I associate with as well, and though I haven't dated, all of them have accepted me and my transition 100%. I wouldn't associate with anyone who wouldn't...

Quote from: Jocelyn on January 02, 2011, 09:23:03 PM
I don't think this is a fair statement. This may have been the case 20 or 30 years ago, but things really are different now. The younger generation is far more open-minded about these kinds of things. I've dated lesbians that didn't like penises at all, and straight guys that also didn't like penises at all. But, we made it work because it really is just a stupid thing that doesn't matter. In fact, I've never once had my penis be a serious issue at all. Sure, it has kept me out of a few threesomes I would have wanted, but never out of any kind of meaningful emotional connection. I'm also generally only attracted to really open-minded people; people that are usually atheists that passionately support gay rights. I've always been almost exclusively physically attracted to females and been generally repulsed by the penis. However, I would have no problem spending the rest of my life with a male because I really just don't care what genitalia someone has. You can still find fun things to do regardless. There are plenty of other people out there with views just like me; don't let anyone tell you otherwise. You just have to know where and how to look for them.

Quote from: JennX on January 03, 2011, 12:01:28 AM
I really have to disagree with this one. I'm "pre-op" and I've dated several doctors, lawyers, fire fighters and other "normal decent men" that would 100% contradict this statement. And more than not, most didn't disappear after learning of my "status". I think it has more to do with picking "decent open-minded men" in the first place more than anything else.

@both - Please both of you bear in mind that my experience of pre-op dating is based on the way things were in the late 1970's and early 1980's which was when I was last in that condition. It is a long time and I accept that things may have moved on, however personally I have to say that I think whilst people in general may be more broad-minded these days I am not sure how far that would extend when it came to dating.

If it has changed then good for you. I, of course, have no way (and indeed no desire) to go back to being pre-op to find out so I accept that I may be out of date on that aspect. My general point about the desirability of total honesty in relationships stands though.

Quote from: Northern Jane on January 03, 2011, 07:39:34 AM
I had SRS in 1974 and married in 1976. My husband didn't know my medical history and I didn't tell him - I felt it was nobody's business and I had been cured of my birth defect so that was that. He found out after we separated and was mad that I hadn't trusted him enough to tell him - he felt it was "a big deal" and I didn't see it as so important.

I married again in 1980 only this time I told my husband when things got serious. He was not just understanding but very sympathetic to the pain I must have gone through as a child. It turned out to be a good move (telling him) because when my medical history was leaked by a clinic worker, my husband was my biggest defender.

Having gone both ways, which would I do in the future? I  would share the story of my childhood not because it should matter to me or him but because it matters to (some) other people and it would not be fair to him to leave him unprepared for the possible gossip. It is something I do share and it is something "straight guys" have a problem with because it has all been so sensationalized that the medical aspects have been lost. But if even only 1 guy out of 1,000 get it, I would rather be up front and alone than with a guy who could only accept me on a superficial level.

Hats off to you Northern Jane, it was your story that inspired me to tell my Fiancé my history, when we finally got engaged and tolded Him I was trans, it was the best advice I ever learned on this board, I can never thank you enough for posting your experience, btw a very Happy New Year to all from a very happy housewife.
Pauline

Quote from: pretty pauline on January 03, 2011, 12:35:57 PM
Hats off to you Northern Jane, it was your story that inspired me to tell my Fiancé my history, when we finally got engaged and tolded Him I was trans, it was the best advice I ever learned on this board, I can never thank you enough for posting your experience, btw a very Happy New Year to all from a very happy housewife.
Pauline

I am so glad it worked out for you Pauline. Personally I couldn't imagine going into a serious relationship withholding information the other person may feel is important but it sure does limit the field of perspective mates! In my experience is was less of an issue in the 1970's but maybe that was because I was younger and more attractive LOL!

Quote from: Valeriedances on January 03, 2011, 11:43:06 AM
Making comments implying dating men is easy for transsexual women is wrong, misleading and totally disregards the tragedies, violence, abuse and simple rejection that so many face. Every time we reveal our past or our current status we are at risk.

This is not a topic to sugar coat because people die over this.

I'm sorry for disagreeing. We just can't disregard one of the most difficult aspects of being born with our condition. I completely empathize with the OP because it is disheartening.

I am encouraged by stories like Slanan's, Pauline's, Jane's, Octavianus, and others. They give me much hope for my own future as a post-op whose dream is to love and be loved by a man. But still, it is not easy to find or common and I dread revealing my past because, so far, it changes everything.

You have it completely backwards. If you want to avoid violence, that is exactly why you should reveal this information. Most of this serious violence is from people that feel tricked. Personally, I would never even so much as hold a guy's hand without having first told him I was trans, post-op or pre-op. If they aren't okay with it, then I probably wouldn't be interested in them anyways. Thinking you will never find love without hiding your status just seems silly to me. Like I said before, I believe it depends a lot on the type of people you associate with. I mostly hang out with college or grad school students, atheists, and people that support gay rights. I've probably told over 40 people of my status in person, and I posted a note on facebook to over 300 friends. I've yet to receive anything short of a glowingly positive reaction. I think a positive, open, and honest attitude towards being transgendered goes a long way.

If you are interested in some guy that is religious or doesn't support gay rights, please, do yourself a favor and let him know upfront before you even so much as kiss him.

Quote from: Valeriedances on January 03, 2011, 05:51:17 AM
When I was pre-op I dated all the time. These guys were bi or gay. Now that I'm post-op dating heterosexual men its a completely different thing. I've been rejected too many times for it to be a coincidence. They are phobic.

There isn't a straight guy on the planet that will go near a penis ...or they're not straight. They may be open-minded (bi) but certainly not straight. By definition them dating someone that happens to be transsexual makes them not straight/heterosexual (at least for that relationship) since we are not cis-gendered girls and either have or have had a penis. I'm talking sexuality not how the couple relates. Even post-op and the two are opposite sex, the male partner has to make a mental adjustment when informed.

I think the dating pool is much larger for pre-ops than post-ops who disclose. The guys are very different.

Yes & No. I hate labels. I really don't like them. However, if I go out with a guy who does not identify, self-label, or present in a "openly gay manner" and identifies as hetero, has been married, has kids, and tells me he's never been with another male in the biblical sense, he's hetero in my book. Based on your analysis a pre-op ts genitals dictates their partners sexual orientation, which is somewhat absurd. And totally disregards either person's mental, sexual and emotional identity. It's far too oversimplified to basis everything on anatomy alone.

Quote from: Valeriedances on January 03, 2011, 11:43:06 AM
Making comments implying dating men is easy for transsexual women is wrong, misleading and totally disregards the tragedies, violence, abuse and simple rejection that so many face. Every time we reveal our past or our current status we are at risk.

This is not a topic to sugar coat because people die over this.

Again, I somewhat agree and disagree. If your a pre-op MTF TS and decide to reveal your status to a guy in a dark parking lot all alone that you know has somewhat of a temper... is that really the wisest move?

I've been in situations where I honestly didn't know how a guy would react, especially when he was 100% clueless about me. I would always have these conversations in public places and with a least a friend or two near by. Such as at local bar, where my friend Mark tends bar and is a former professional body builder, for example. I guess what I'm trying to say here, is I understand the "implied danger"... but an ounce of prevention is worth of pound of cure. Use good judgement and plan ahead.

For the record I only disclose my pre-op MTF status to a guy after a minimum of 3 dates. It's not something I feel like discussing before then. Unless we have mutual friends.

My best friend is a local TS woman who is preop. She has been with her husband for over 25 years. He identifies as strictly hetero. He is able to see past the birth defect cause she is completely a woman and they are in love.

I do not think that the penis makes a man and I don't think that every man who has sex with someone with a penis is gay or bisexual.
The world is not black and white.....

Quote from: Valeriedances on January 03, 2011, 10:12:56 PM
Okay Jenn, I'm sorry if I offended. I know it's a sensitive topic. I am using the standard definitions of sexuality, but obviously in a poor way as I attempt to describe my own life history.

You didn't offend me in the least. It takes a lot more than words on a screen.  ;)

Just sharing my viewpoint. That's all.  ;D

There's nothing more scary for me than to reveal a strict straight man that I'm a trans, worse, a pre-op. I'm more afraid to be rejected than to be smashed on the face. I've been rejected ALWAYS for a serious relationship that now I'd rather die than reveal and sometimes when other jealous people go reveal my partners about me, I deny to death. If ever 1 day I get to operate, I'll NEVER reveal what I am if ever I marry. Most of the strict straight men are all HYPOCRITES and FAKE. They make BIG BIG love declaration and even make drama of committing suicide and bumping their heads on the wall if I don't love them and when I reveal what I am they DUMP ME IN A FRACTION OF SECOND. WTF is that? BEFORE REVEALING, I WAS THE SAME F... PERSON RIGHT? GOSH! But too bad I dunno why I am dependant and need them badly to survive.

WATCH THIS SHOCKING REVELATION OF A TRANS TO A STRAIGHT MAN
There's Something About Miriam (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ACJL41x3QE#)

Quote from: Sad Girl on January 05, 2011, 06:18:53 PM
There's nothing more scary for me than to reveal a strict straight cis man that I'm a trans person

QuoteWATCH THIS SHOCKING REVELATION OF A TRANS WOMAN TO A STRAIGHT CIS MAN

There you go, fixed it for ya  :)

Quote from: Vexing on January 05, 2011, 06:52:46 PM
There you go, fixed it for ya  :)

Quite so and anyway Sad Girl that show was specially commissioned by Sky part of the Murdoch FOX empire to deliberately create a shock reaction. The fox empire is not known for its sympathy to us.

It was originally intended to be shown on British TV back when transwomen were open season for routine media ridicule however sky were forced to pull the programme and it was never shown in the UK after word got out and provoked a huge public backlash complaining that the whole setup was tacky and unfair to BOTH the man and the woman involved.

Shortly after this the Uk law was changed to give transwomen legal recognition and indeed that legislation also included a basic right to privacy from such cheap media ridicule.

What created the violent reaction was not that she was trans - but that these men had had that information DELIBERATELY obscured from them by the programme makers and thus they right felt that they had been tricked and made fools of.

Dating stealth is so hard and unrewarding.  One guy I had been dating I told in a public place and he started screaming and threatening to kill me.  We hadn't even gotten past second base.  And every relationship that started out stealth ended in disappointment.  I considered never telling again, but there's something really unfilfilling in dating somone who would despise me if I were truly intimate enough with him to share that information.  There's no trust.

So I started taking out dating ads online and in the paper making it clear I was post op in the ad.  I got a lot of creeps and some weird voicemails, but I met my spouse that way.  We've been together now for over ten years.

One story that's kind of funny now that it's so long ago is that one of those guys that answered my ad apparently didn't understand the ad.  We were riding along in his car when I said something in passing that made it click for him.  He asked me to repeat what I said, looked comically horrified, stopped the car, kicked me out, and drove away.

Quote from: glendagladwitch on January 05, 2011, 07:38:44 PM
So I started taking out dating ads online and in the paper making it clear I was post op in the ad.  I got a lot of creeps and some weird voicemails, but I met my spouse that way.  We've been together now for over ten years.

Aww. It always makes me feel all warm and squidgy inside when I hear how long you two have been together  :D

Quote from: rejennyrated on January 02, 2011, 01:08:39 PM
Most normal decent men will NOT be interested when you are pre-op.

I think that's a little unfair - doesn't a statement like that perpetuate the belief that all women should have a vagina and all men should have a penis? That's quite insulting and damning to non-op transwomen.

The way you have phrased that sounds like it's justifying the behaviour of men who disregard pre-op transwomen, because you have described them as 'normal and decent'. I would not consider a man decent if he didn't even try to accept a pre-op transwoman whom he was genuinely interested in just because of her genitalia.

Why would one want a man who could not accept a transwoman's past, if post-op, and future, if pre-op?

Quote from: Dee_pntx on January 05, 2011, 08:14:03 PM
Another thing I take issue with is the "I was born a man." 

Yes. This.
Also, people saying "You're not a biological female".
If I'm not a biological female, then what am I? A robot female? I'm a biological organism, not a fracking toaster.

Quote from: VanOcc on January 05, 2011, 08:25:17 PM
Why would one want a man who could not accept a transwoman's past, if post-op, and future, if pre-op?

Yes, a man who would reject a woman purely because she was unwillingly assigned 'male' at birth isn't very 'decent' in my book.

I'm just going to jump in here quickly and defend toasters, because they are awesome.... Vex if you were a toaster I'd never hold that against you.

That said, personally, honesty is so important to me, including in relationships that non-disclosure of something big by either myself or a partner would be a dealbreaker. But thats me.

Quote from: glendagladwitch on January 05, 2011, 07:38:44 PM
He asked me to repeat what I said, looked comically horrified, stopped the car, kicked me out, and drove away.

SHUCKS!!!  >:( I'm sorry to hear that sis. The worst on my side is a guy on the bus station found me pretty and dared grabbing me by my arm and as soon as I said 'Pardon?' and he heard my masculine voice and he started yelling :"->-bleeped-<-GOT! A ->-bleeped-<-GOT!! A DIRTY FILTHY ->-bleeped-<-GOT!!!" in front of EVERYONE, his friends started to laugh at me and everyone turned and started looking at me. I felt so humiliated that day.  :embarrassed:

Quote from: VanOcc on January 05, 2011, 08:25:17 PM
The way you have phrased that sounds like it's justifying the behaviour of men who disregard pre-op transwomen, because you have described them as 'normal and decent'. I would not consider a man decent if he didn't even try to accept a pre-op transwoman whom he was genuinely interested in just because of her genitalia.

Why would one want a man who could not accept a transwoman's past, if post-op, and future, if pre-op?

Agreed.  I hope I'm a decent man (I'm sure I'm not normal, but not because of this issue!), or at least on my way to becoming one.  I've never been in the situation to date a someone who was pre-op, but I would like to think that if the right woman was there in my past, I'd have at least given it a chance.  Like I would have done with anyone else.

There's a lot of bigots.  The bigots are the ones that won't change and can't be educated.  I can't imagine anyone wanting to go out with a bigot, stealth or not.

There's also a lot of just plain ignorant people.  I was one of them.  I "learned" in high school biology that males have "XY" chromosomes and women have "XX".  Why wouldn't I believe that?  I never learned or heard of anything decent about transgender, transexual, intersex, etc.  All I knew about gender was that you were either XX or XY.  I couldn't imagine ever wanting to be a woman - and, naturally, having no exposure to anyone who didn't fit the binary system perfectly, I assumed everyone else felt the same way.  I certainly didn't personally know any trans people.  What changed my views was meeting a few people who didn't confirm to the magic formula.  As I learned that the formula I was taught was bull (because people were "out" and forced me to think about it by their very existence), my views changed.  I praise God for that daily because if my views didn't change, I wouldn't be married to my wife - I believe He put people in my life to show me how ignorant I was.

I don't think I'm unique.  I didn't run from my wife when she told me (before we even started dating) about her history.  It didn't change my view of her because of education - I wasn't completely ignorant anymore.  And I think there are others like me, although I think a lot of people like me have been less fortunate than I was, and, thus, had little exposure to diversity.  I don't think most people have ever had to spend a second or two thinking about what makes someone "male" or "female".  They just take it for granted that everyone is like them, at least until they are forced to think about it by being confronted with the existence of someone who doesn't fit their make-believe world view (where everyone is either XX or XY, and that's the whole story).

I will say my wife went way, way longer than any woman should have to find her soul mate.  And she's told me some heartbreaking stories of her dating experiences.  I really can't understand how people can be that cruel to someone like her.  I can't even begin to understand what allowed her to keep looking for the right person - it's a strength that I doubt I would have had.

But the point is that we are out there.  I know there are too many that are still ignorant, or, worse, bigots, and that these people outnumber the decent guys.  It makes me cry that some people must hide their past to find a partner - a partner who would have disagreed with (or been repulsed by) the choice someone made to transition and/or present as their true gender.  Everyone deserves better than that.  Everyone deserves a partner who would have supported them in their past, not just in their present.

Quote from: VanOcc on January 05, 2011, 08:25:17 PM
I think that's a little unfair - doesn't a statement like that perpetuate the belief that all women should have a vagina and all men should have a penis? That's quite insulting and damning to non-op transwomen.

The way you have phrased that sounds like it's justifying the behaviour of men who disregard pre-op transwomen, because you have described them as 'normal and decent'. I would not consider a man decent if he didn't even try to accept a pre-op transwoman whom he was genuinely interested in just because of her genitalia.

Why would one want a man who could not accept a transwoman's past, if post-op, and future, if pre-op?

But if you had read the whole thread before replying you would have seen that I have already clarified that point to Jennx and Jocelyn. My observations may indeed be outdated but that doesn't mean that they were wrong back when I was preop in the late 70's and early 80's. I think people sometime forget how hard it was for us all back then. And yeah you are right it probably was a patronising and insulting attitude from an age when most people thought we were sexual perverts or nutters, and therefore likely to molest children and do all sorts of unspeakable things. Unfortunately if you suffer enough insults and rejection at the hands of another group you do tend to unconsciously assume that that is what they all feel.

Quote from: Slanan on January 06, 2011, 12:20:58 AM
Agreed.  I hope I'm a decent man (I'm sure I'm not normal, but not because of this issue!), or at least on my way to becoming one.  I've never been in the situation to date a someone who was pre-op, but I would like to think that if the right woman was there in my past, I'd have at least given it a chance.  Like I would have done with anyone else.

And if you read my original reply on this point to the other two you will see that I was talking about the way things were back in the early 80's which was when I was last preop. As I have already said I am happy to accept that things may have moved on, but we can only speak from our own experience, and mine comes from a different age.

It doesn't seem to matter how you phrase it, it is STILL a bomb! As soon as a guy starts getting ANY inkling of anything out of the ordinary he starts getting scared, and who can blame him? With all the sensationalist television and "freak stories", as soon as you start talking about abnormalities, you KNOW where his mind is going to go.

Honest to gawd I swear life was easier in the 1970's and 80's, before 'freak show TV' There seemed to be more acceptance that this was a simple and straight-forward medical condition and anyone who went through all the shyte and abuse to transition and have SRS then MUST be a woman. It probably helped that there wasn't as much "blurring of gender lines" then so folks were accepted on the basis of who they appeared to be.

"The past" is nearly 40 years ago for me now and is pretty irrelevant for me except for my involvement in Intersex activism/education but that's part of my life and I don't want to give it up. I have dated a LOT over the last few years and with only one exception, not a single guy has got past the point of 'disclosure'. It is very discouraging....

I'm in the same boat as Slanan. I'm currently engaged to a wonderful girl that I've been seeing for the past two years. We might be few and far in between, but we're out there, somewhere.

I first met my fiancée at a dinner party, two years ago. I was immediately struck by her appearence. She was pretty, yes, but 't were her grace and elegance that moved me. I felt priviliged, because I couldn't help but feel as if I was the audience in a play where she was the lead actress and everyone else at the dinner party was merely fulfilling supporting roles. Most of all, however, I was captivated by her eyes. Those sparkling sapphires, radiant like stars, calm yet profound like a crystalline lake under the cover of moonlight, burning brightly with the flame of intelligence and of life... and of sorrow. I couldn't put my finger on it at the time, but there was a great sadness in her. No one else seemed to notice, so I did not ask.

I approached her, and we started talking. We immediately connected in a way that I'd never before experienced, and most likely never will again for as long as I live. The only way I could remotely explain this exhilarating feeling is by a corny metaphor: it felt as if we were two pieces of the same soul that had finally been brought together. It was as if, somehow, we belonged together. Not necessarily as a couple, mind you, but as two people that were meaningful to eachother. She obviously felt the same way, because we started seeing each other regularly.

Then, a couple of weeks later, about the third time we met, she confided in me. She spoke in a soft, vibrating voice, afraid as if merely uttering them would make them shatter. Her words were plain and simple enough, yet veiled and subtle. "I haven't always looked the way I do now."

At first thought, I naïvely thought she ment she'd changed her hairdo or something. Coloured her nails. The intensely nervous manner in which she was peering at me from under her eyelids, however, told me this was deadly serious. I couldn't help but feel I was in somewhere way over my head. I hadn't a clue just what I was in, however.

That moment lasted but the blink of an eye. Not an instant later, the full implication of her words was revealed to me. Now, to say I was unsuspecting would be an understatement, since I'd never been confronted with transgender issues up to that point. I was dumbfounded, to say the least. I sat there, in shock and in awe, for in that very same instant, she'd shattered my entire worldview and instantaneously replaced it with a new one, a view where she had taken her rightful place. I was engulfed by thoughts and emotions. I was humbled, honoured, glad and thankful that she had found me worthy to be confided in. I felt pain, regret, and anguish as I realised all the things she must've been through, the hardships she had to endure, the misunderstandings she had to cope with, and I felt deep sorrow that she had to suffer all that all alone - to the point were I could barely constrain myself from bursting out in tears. I realised that I deeply cared for her. Above all, however, I was deeply honoured and profoundly grateful. I had been chosen worthy to be given a glimpse of this brilliant diamond, where most others may only see one or perhaps two facets at the same time. At that precise moment, I saw her for who she really was - a beautiful, radiant star that had chosen to unveil herself for me.

I realised right there and then that it did not change who she was in the slightest, and that I could not possibly care less what she had looked like in the past. What did it matter? All that mattered was who she was then and there. But how could I relate this to her? The way I expressed myself was vitally important. I couldn't help but become somewhat nervous myself as I saw here sitting there, this beautiful woman of mine, her hands clenched tightly together, not knowing how I would react. How hard it must have been for her to confide in me!

I could clearly see that she was worried. How much time had passed? It couldn't have been more than two, three seconds, and yet, since I did not immediately reply, she was worried that I had taken it the wrong way. As I smiled towards her, I could see her relax, and only then did I realise just how tense she must have been.

"This does not change who you are. It does not matter to me how you may have looked in the past - what matters to me is who you are today." And as she smiled back at me, I realised everything would be alright between us.

Quote from: Starveil on January 06, 2011, 09:50:03 AM
I'm in the same boat as Slanan. I'm currently engaged to a wonderful girl that I've been seeing for the past two years. We might be few and far in between, but we're out there, somewhere.

I first met my fiancée at a dinner party, two years ago. I was immediately struck by her appearence. She was pretty, yes, but 't were her grace and elegance that moved me. I felt priviliged, because I couldn't help but feel as if I was the audience in a play where she was the lead actress and everyone else at the dinner party was merely fulfilling supporting roles. Most of all, however, I was captivated by her eyes. Those sparkling sapphires, radiant like stars, calm yet profound like a crystalline lake under the cover of moonlight, burning brightly with the flame of intelligence and of life... and of sorrow. I couldn't put my finger on it at the time, but there was a great sadness in her. No one else seemed to notice, so I did not ask.

I approached her, and we started talking. We immediately connected in a way that I'd never before experienced, and most likely never will again for as long as I live. The only way I could remotely explain this exhilarating feeling is by a corny metaphor: it felt as if we were two pieces of the same soul that had finally been brought together. It was as if, somehow, we belonged together. Not necessarily as a couple, mind you, but as two people that were meaningful to eachother. She obviously felt the same way, because we started seeing each other regularly.

Then, a couple of weeks later, about the third time we met, she confided in me. She spoke in a soft, vibrating voice, afraid as if merely uttering them would make them shatter. Her words were plain and simple enough, yet veiled and subtle. "I haven't always looked the way I do now."

At first thought, I naïvely thought she ment she'd changed her hairdo or something. Coloured her nails. The intensely nervous manner in which she was peering at me from under her eyelids, however, told me this was deadly serious. I couldn't help but feel I was in somewhere way over my head. I hadn't a clue just what I was in, however.

That moment lasted but the blink of an eye. Not an instant later, the full implication of her words was revealed to me. Now, to say I was unsuspecting would be an understatement, since I'd never been confronted with transgender issues up to that point. I was dumbfounded, to say the least. I sat there, in shock and in awe, for in that very same instant, she'd shattered my entire worldview and instantaneously replaced it with a new one, a view where she had taken her rightful place. I was engulfed by thoughts and emotions. I was humbled, honoured, glad and thankful that she had found me worthy to be confided in. I felt pain, regret, and anguish as I realised all the things she must've been through, the hardships she had to endure, the misunderstandings she had to cope with, and I felt deep sorrow that she had to suffer all that all alone - to the point were I could barely constrain myself from bursting out in tears. I realised that I deeply cared for her. Above all, however, I was deeply honoured and profoundly grateful. I had been chosen worthy to be given a glimpse of this brilliant diamond, where most others may only see one or perhaps two facets at the same time. At that precise moment, I saw her for who she really was - a beautiful, radiant star that had chosen to unveil herself for me.

I realised right there and then that it did not change who she was in the slightest, and that I could not possibly care less what she had looked like in the past. What did it matter? All that mattered was who she was then and there. But how could I relate this to her? The way I expressed myself was vitally important. I couldn't help but become somewhat nervous myself as I saw here sitting there, this beautiful woman of mine, her hands clenched tightly together, not knowing how I would react. How hard it must have been for her to confide in me!

I could clearly see that she was worried. How much time had passed? It couldn't have been more than two, three seconds, and yet, since I did not immediately reply, she was worried that I had taken it the wrong way. As I smiled towards her, I could see her relax, and only then did I realise just how tense she must have been.

"This does not change who you are. It does not matter to me how you may have looked in the past - what matters to me is who you are today." And as she smiled back at me, I realised everything would be alright between us.

That is the most beautiful thing I have read in a long time, Starveil.  I hope you let your soulmate read that post, it brought a tear to my eye.  What a lucky girl.

I've only used straight hetero dating sites....

And haven't told any of my long-term b/f's my full history....

I can legally marry as a woman as I have a fully female birth-certif.!

I don't view this as a problem....

My one rule is if anyone asked me out right I'd never deny it...

But here's the one-trick-pony ma dears.... no one ever, ever has!

Quote from: jennifer90 on January 06, 2011, 04:05:10 PM
That is the most beautiful thing I have read in a long time, Starveil.  I hope you let your soulmate read that post, it brought a tear to my eye.  What a lucky girl.

Me three!

Quote from: Starveil on January 06, 2011, 09:50:03 AM
I'm in the same boat as Slanan. I'm currently engaged to a wonderful girl that I've been seeing for the past two years. We might be few and far in between, but we're out there, somewhere.

I first met my fiancée at a dinner party, two years ago. I was immediately struck by her appearence. She was pretty, yes, but 't were her grace and elegance that moved me. I felt priviliged, because I couldn't help but feel as if I was the audience in a play where she was the lead actress and everyone else at the dinner party was merely fulfilling supporting roles. Most of all, however, I was captivated by her eyes. Those sparkling sapphires, radiant like stars, calm yet profound like a crystalline lake under the cover of moonlight, burning brightly with the flame of intelligence and of life... and of sorrow. I couldn't put my finger on it at the time, but there was a great sadness in her. No one else seemed to notice, so I did not ask.

I approached her, and we started talking. We immediately connected in a way that I'd never before experienced, and most likely never will again for as long as I live. The only way I could remotely explain this exhilarating feeling is by a corny metaphor: it felt as if we were two pieces of the same soul that had finally been brought together. It was as if, somehow, we belonged together. Not necessarily as a couple, mind you, but as two people that were meaningful to eachother. She obviously felt the same way, because we started seeing each other regularly.

Then, a couple of weeks later, about the third time we met, she confided in me. She spoke in a soft, vibrating voice, afraid as if merely uttering them would make them shatter. Her words were plain and simple enough, yet veiled and subtle. "I haven't always looked the way I do now."

At first thought, I naïvely thought she ment she'd changed her hairdo or something. Coloured her nails. The intensely nervous manner in which she was peering at me from under her eyelids, however, told me this was deadly serious. I couldn't help but feel I was in somewhere way over my head. I hadn't a clue just what I was in, however.

That moment lasted but the blink of an eye. Not an instant later, the full implication of her words was revealed to me. Now, to say I was unsuspecting would be an understatement, since I'd never been confronted with transgender issues up to that point. I was dumbfounded, to say the least. I sat there, in shock and in awe, for in that very same instant, she'd shattered my entire worldview and instantaneously replaced it with a new one, a view where she had taken her rightful place. I was engulfed by thoughts and emotions. I was humbled, honoured, glad and thankful that she had found me worthy to be confided in. I felt pain, regret, and anguish as I realised all the things she must've been through, the hardships she had to endure, the misunderstandings she had to cope with, and I felt deep sorrow that she had to suffer all that all alone - to the point were I could barely constrain myself from bursting out in tears. I realised that I deeply cared for her. Above all, however, I was deeply honoured and profoundly grateful. I had been chosen worthy to be given a glimpse of this brilliant diamond, where most others may only see one or perhaps two facets at the same time. At that precise moment, I saw her for who she really was - a beautiful, radiant star that had chosen to unveil herself for me.

I realised right there and then that it did not change who she was in the slightest, and that I could not possibly care less what she had looked like in the past. What did it matter? All that mattered was who she was then and there. But how could I relate this to her? The way I expressed myself was vitally important. I couldn't help but become somewhat nervous myself as I saw here sitting there, this beautiful woman of mine, her hands clenched tightly together, not knowing how I would react. How hard it must have been for her to confide in me!

I could clearly see that she was worried. How much time had passed? It couldn't have been more than two, three seconds, and yet, since I did not immediately reply, she was worried that I had taken it the wrong way. As I smiled towards her, I could see her relax, and only then did I realise just how tense she must have been.

"This does not change who you are. It does not matter to me how you may have looked in the past - what matters to me is who you are today." And as she smiled back at me, I realised everything would be alright between us.

When I read that at first Starveil, it could have been my Husband, Im a very lucky girl that I met an understanding guy as well, you tell it so well from a guy's point of view, your Fiancee is so lucky, its so inspiring that there are guys like you, so uplifting, thank you for sharing.
Pauline

Me three on the tears Starveil. Beautifully told.

My wife has often told me that she hopes I end up being attracted to men in the end because she doesn't want me to add lesbian and all the problems they encounter to the troubles transwomen also encounter. I pointed out to her that I will always have to deal with something as a transwoman straight or lesbian. The fear of being rejected by prospective male or female partners is real and great for me. In a sense it has already started since my wife filed for divorce once I came out to her.

Not trying to be confrontational, but when some trans women question the heterosexuality of all straight-identifying men who date pre-op trans women, it does several things:

1) Implies that trans women aren't really women and justifies genital-based bigotry.  I would get REALLY angry if I heard a cisgender person saying that.

2) Insults decent, straight men who see us as people rather than a set of genitals.

3) Increases the stigma against dating trans women, and thus increases violence against trans women.  (I doubt it helps trans men, either.)

4) Insults pre-op/non-op trans people of either gender.

Quote from: Valeriedances on January 07, 2011, 05:07:26 AM
When we are disclosing to a potential partner, what is it that we are disclosing? And what is the impact of disclosure?

Part of the problem is defining opposite sex (heterosexuality) and the meaning of Male-to-Female and Female-to-Male. It's too sensitive to discuss, which is sad, because so many of us are devastated by rejection and need support to cope. I just got a prescription yesterday for an anti-depressant from my endo because I am having such a hard time coping with this. For the past few weeks I feel like I'm on the ledge of a building about to jump off in despair over this topic.

I think one of my earlier posts could be considered offensive, insensitive and poorly worded in describing heterosexuality (reading back through the posts). I would edit/remove them but some of the discussion was responding to it and the thread would lose some context if I did. So I'll leave it for now, apologize and let the moderators review.

Ack.  I'm so sorry.  I wasn't really talking to you, but about this subject in general, because I've had this conversation recently elsewhere that went bad and gave me some issues, and I projected them onto this thread.  I'm sorry I came off being harsh about the whole genital issue. I'm so sorry you've gone through that.  I've kinda been having some issues the past week, too, relating to worrying about my genitals, and that's why I reacted so strongly, but I should have been more sensitive to you.  Anyway, my sincere apologies.

This is why Valerie

From my somewhat limited experience (my own)..... I decided to stay schtum about my unusual start.... er go.... I did it all in my late twenties....the change-over not in ma fifties.

But I found out to my cost personal/financially at the beginning of ma womanhood that revelations led to many bad f#cks ups most not of my making.... and now i view it naive that most would champion my amazing transformation... but this was back in the 1980's....lol

(And real life taught me otherwise)

Finally I was advised in fact in the end by a prof' counselor type to stop the full-frank revelations malarkey if I wanted to make better (safer) progress.... especially on my career stakes...

He was right.... and then I never looked back!

But then I was very lucky with ma physical transition.... and the amount of cis women at the start that would bitch behind my back (I was very attractive) was a clincher in work situations to remain coyer...

I'm fully aware of the need of 'some' to bare-chest, warts-n-all... and if you do not pass well..... then tis not an option to go deep stealth....

But we have many aspects of ourselves that are in fact totally private if we're all honest as such....

And white lies do make the world go round in fact... always have.... always will do while h'man beans rule the globe...

As to men, alpha's are oft highly visual hierarchy king-of-the-pile type creatures.... and if they fancy you (that way) tis primal for sure..... so tis obvious if you suddenly disclose your past right at the start....then the majority will flit to flight mode.... thinking 'jeez' you were one of them.... and heteromen are known to have strong anti-gay feelings instinctively.

So I'm not surprised the pattern repeats time and time again.... for you, it did for me once or twice right at the start, and i also didn't want to be doing with the ->-bleeped-<--->-bleeped-<- types either..... as some living fetish personae....

I feel you could try to give being more coy, reserved re your twist of fate.... if you wish to date 110% hetero chaps..... and ease yerslef in.... so to speak. Then see what happens? What have you really got to loose? And in reality why should you continue to be self-negating?

My current chap being a Muslim is a tad ultra-conservative to say the least.... and views homosexuality with great personal distaste...

Does this bother me?

No not really..... as I respect that we all have different feelings and views as individuals.... Does this help validate how girly I really am.? Perhaps maybe it does.....

Do i like gay peeps....definitely..... as i'm what you would call a thinking woman liberal.....*s->-bleeped-<-s* and one of my best g/f's is a lesbian..

Is the world black & white for some yes.....

But i like shade's-o-grey for sure....lol

Quote from: Cruelladeville on January 09, 2011, 12:35:50 PM
My current chap being a Muslim is a tad ultra-conservative to say the least.... and views homosexuality with great personal distaste...

Personally, I couldn't date a bigot.
Good luck with that.

I know of women who did not tell their fiancee's until after their prospective bf's proposed to them..Some broke up with them, some didnt..,but tell yourself..Would you have wanted to stay with someone that would break up with you because of this??  I know it is and can be unfair to not tell someone, but in my opinion, I would not tell them until it became more serious of a relationship.  If he leaves, then it is his loss.  I know how strong the desire for love and intimacy can be..but you must be strong. 

Amen Michelle, amen.

I've heard of many stories and believe it or not; many pull it off. For every one who is outed 5 get away with it.

Also allot of it has to do with how you sell yourself or what sort of transition you went through. I hate to oversimplify; but it's the same old attractiveness level problem that all women have. The attractive have nightmares trying to shift through masses of insecure spineless twerps, where as the unattractive will have a nightmare just finding someone at all. The former is why I could not stand to leave my love in the dark about my past after a month or so, he seemed so un fazed and genuine and now I know he is.

The vast majority of what is sold as love is just infatuation... It hard to believe that even just 30% of the random people I meet have the limited humility and selflessness needed to really love someone. Plenty of people I know are outwardly polite and nice and giving, but even among there ranks I know allot are simply not relationship types.

True love is rarer than hens teeth to begin with, the vast majority of lasting relationships are just because they can tolerate each other. But when 'we' find someone who wants to stay with us after finding out, and then years later you know we have it  ;D The long relationship pretenders would never do so for someone who has transition in the past. People change, but the signs are always there if you are astute.

When i transitioned i fell in love with another post op who only wanted me as a pre op and soon left me after i was post op. I was open to pre or post or non op but it never happened maybe because i was a little desparate acting and hurt from her breaking up with me. I have been single ever since (over a dozen yrs) and personally never was attracted to men but did find some nice luvable lug guys as friends and they knew my past but we just were only friends which is all we both wanted. I also tried cisgendered girls but they seemed to just want to experience me so i moved on. I then realized that i was getting attention from too many men or males and so i switched back to dressing as male and trying to pull that off but everyone saw me as a FTM with no facial hair (except a few long hair straglers) and small bumps on my chest (after BAS removal) and ear ring holes. So i have given up and just spend my life helping the elderly, one now who is my mom. I know most MTF's and FTM's are not interested in me because i went back to dressing male so they are out as potential mates too now. I am happy though because this was never about finding love from others it was about finally loving myself. Yes in the beginning i thought i needed to be loved to be whole but i now know it was best to learn to love myself and not seek another to make me feel lovable. I hope you see this and know that many Trans do live single lives and its ok and we are ok and we are worthy and so open your mind because even outside of being trans many people live single lives full filled by doing a multiplicity of other things. And now being so many yrs post op sex only comes to me in my dreams which is enough for me.  :)  Today i am open to sharing my home platonically speaking with someone older who just wants a nice roommate to share daily things in life.

Quote from: M2MtF2FtM on January 11, 2011, 05:31:23 AM
When i transitioned i fell in love with another post op who only wanted me as a pre op and soon left me after i was post op. I was open to pre or post or non op but it never happened maybe because i was a little desparate acting and hurt from her breaking up with me. I have been single ever since (over a dozen yrs) and personally never was attracted to men but did find some nice luvable lug guys as friends and they knew my past but we just were only friends which is all we both wanted. I also tried cisgendered girls but they seemed to just want to experience me so i moved on. I then realized that i was getting attention from too many men or males and so i switched back to dressing as male and trying to pull that off but everyone saw me as a FTM with no facial hair (except a few long hair straglers) and small bumps on my chest (after BAS removal) and ear ring holes. So i have given up and just spend my life helping the elderly, one now who is my mom. I know most MTF's and FTM's are not interested in me because i went back to dressing male so they are out as potential mates too now. I am happy though because this was never about finding love from others it was about finally loving myself. Yes in the beginning i thought i needed to be loved to be whole but i now know it was best to learn to love myself and not seek another to make me feel lovable. I hope you see this and know that many Trans do live single lives and its ok and we are ok and we are worthy and so open your mind because even outside of being trans many people live single lives full filled by doing a multiplicity of other things. And now being so many yrs post op sex only comes to me in my dreams which is enough for me.  :)  Today i am open to sharing my home platonically speaking with someone older who just wants a nice roommate to share daily things in life.

You sound very nice. I have to say I personally don't care how my partner chooses to dress or present, that's up to them, and it certainly wouldn't deter me from a relationship anymore than what their plumbing arrangements were... ;D I dunno but it seems to me that some people are rather narrow minded when it comes to love. For me friendship always comes first, and then love and physicality sometimes flow from that.

Shame you don't live in Cornwall or you could come and join the party that is starting to develop at our place. ;) For the last 23 years Alison and I have been a married couple in every sense possible, but as we are getting older we are beginning to look towards establishing an extended "family" of like minded folk that can live together and support one another so that no one will have to face lonely senior years or the indignity of an old peoples home. Hopefully at 50 I am still a long way off such things, but I always believe in planning well ahead.

Quote from: rejennyrated on January 11, 2011, 08:54:38 AM
You sound very nice. I have to say I personally don't care how my partner chooses to dress or present, that's up to them, and it certainly wouldn't deter me from a relationship anymore than what their plumbing arrangements were... ;D I dunno but it seems to me that some people are rather narrow minded when it comes to love. For me friendship always comes first, and then love and physicality sometimes flow from that.

Shame you don't live in Cornwall or you could come and join the party that is starting to develop at our place. ;) For the last 23 years Alison and I have been a married couple in every sense possible, but as we are getting older we are beginning to look towards establishing an extended "family" of like minded folk that can live together and support one another so that no one will have to face lonely senior years or the indignity of an old peoples home. Hopefully at 50 I am still a long way off such things, but I always believe in planning well ahead.

Yes i wish i was there but i am here in the USA Pa. taking care of my mother who almost died 13 months ago but is doing much better with my care plus she isn't going crazy with people she doesn't recogniize. I do have a small farm with 6 acres and a old house that i am restoring and hope to find someone to share it with me so i won't be totally alone when mom passes

It also seems the 'find responses to your reply" button isn't working so i had to dig to find this post to respond. Today i am finishing up spackling the kitchen and should be painting it tomorrow. then all i have is the dinningroom to finish. Yesterday i finished the upstairs which was 4 bedrooms and hall and stairs.

Have you ever noticed that when you make a hard and fast statement Fate likes to make you eat your words.

Quote from: Northern Jane on January 06, 2011, 06:44:45 AMI have dated a LOT over the last few years and ....not a single guy has got past the point of 'disclosure'.

Well MUNCH MUNCH!

I recently met a guy through a (straight) on-line dating site and we exchanged a dozen or more emails only to find that we had a tremendous amount in common so we decided to meet for lunch on Monday. The conversation was extremely open, candid, ventured through a great many topics and I strongly felt a connection was developing. Lunch extended to three hours and toward the end of that time he reached across the table, took my hands in his, and stared into my eyes for the longest time. Finally I asked him "What?" and he said in a far away voice, "I think I have been staring into the face of my future." ***GULP! *** That brought a lump to my throat! And I  just about melted in his goodbye kiss!

Things were getting serious so I told him about my childhood in a series of 3 emails (so as not to get too lengthy). After each one he wrote back and said "This does not change how I feel about you!" and after the final one "OMG, that must have been pure hell for you. Call me!" The first thing he said on the phone was "This does not change how I feel....." and we moved on.

I don't know where this will end up but I have to retract my statement about "not a single guy"!

Quote from: Northern Jane on January 12, 2011, 11:56:59 AM
Finally I asked him "What?" and he said in a far away voice, "I think I have been staring into the face of my future." ***GULP! *** That brought a lump to my throat! And I  just about melted in his goodbye kiss!

It's probably a generational thing, but if a guy said that to me on our first lunch date, I would RUN!!!

Quote from: Northern Jane on January 12, 2011, 11:56:59 AM
Have you ever noticed that when you make a hard and fast statement Fate likes to make you eat your words.

Well MUNCH MUNCH!

I recently met a guy through a (straight) on-line dating site and we exchanged a dozen or more emails only to find that we had a tremendous amount in common so we decided to meet for lunch on Monday. The conversation was extremely open, candid, ventured through a great many topics and I strongly felt a connection was developing. Lunch extended to three hours and toward the end of that time he reached across the table, took my hands in his, and stared into my eyes for the longest time. Finally I asked him "What?" and he said in a far away voice, "I think I have been staring into the face of my future." ***GULP! *** That brought a lump to my throat! And I  just about melted in his goodbye kiss!

Things were getting serious so I told him about my childhood in a series of 3 emails (so as not to get too lengthy). After each one he wrote back and said "This does not change how I feel about you!" and after the final one "OMG, that must have been pure hell for you. Call me!" The first thing he said on the phone was "This does not change how I feel....." and we moved on.

I don't know where this will end up but I have to retract my statement about "not a single guy"!

I hate to say I told you so...

but...

I told you so!

It may take a little longer to get hitched with honesty (and in my view honor) but there ARE enough men out there who can understand that you don't have to end up with a fellow traveler unless you want to. I chose Alison over various cis suitors. I may sometimes wonder why ;) but I did and I would do so again.  ;D

Quote from: Vexing on January 12, 2011, 12:02:25 PM
It's probably a generational thing, but if a guy said that to me on our first lunch date, I would RUN!!!

I guess one had to experience the emotions and the openness of the moment to realize it wasn't "a line" but coming straight from the heart.

One of the things I like about you Jane is your open honesty.

Fate also likes to make me eat my words alot also...

>:(    ::)     ;D