Susan's Place Transgender Resources

I am just wondering if anyone has or know of anyone whom has gone through srs but continued to work as male.
FYI i am 37 and in a highly visible carrear and have only 8 years till i can retire, my sister and mother both are small breasted A cups so i doubt my development will be much especially with my age. I have discussed the rtl with my dr and she feels the rtl is important and i agree.But i am in a special circumstance and was looking for a president to go by for some reassurance. i and 5"7 good height but overwieght @ 241 though i am dropping faster now that i gave up the mt dew. just looking for some helpful advice that is all..........jessi

If you can find a surgeon who will do it, go for it.  :)

I haven't managed to get anything surgical at all.

But while it would be nice to achieve all the ambitions I have about my appearance, I'd be satisfied just to have the ugly bit removed.

Since I've been on Susans' and discovered the effects of female hormones, I suspect, in time I would look more and more female. That would be great, to slowly develop. But I'd be quite happy to settle for just the lower part.

I think you will find this very difficult to do for all sorts of reasons that I have already explained in your previous similar thread. Not least the fact that there is a much higher incidence of regret amongst those who attempt this sort of thing, and those who do something like this and end up with regrets do have a very nasty habit of then trying to sue the doctors involved ala Sam Kane in the UK who now wants SRS banned simply because HE made a mistake!

As it happens I do know of one person who did this but unfortunately for you I would not really be able to use them as an example of success, and therefore actually I have to say that in your therapists shoes I too would be resisting, based on the fact that I have seen it fail.

I understand your point Jenny. I too doubt this would be available.

It's just sad that a few idiots and trouble makers can manage to spoil things for the rest of us.

To be honest I have thought about this as a possibility... but I don't see how it would work. It may seem like a good idea on the surface, but would you really be able to have SRS and then not live fully as the person who you are? I couldn't do it, myself... 

Quote from: VeronikaFTH on January 13, 2011, 07:45:34 AM
To be honest I have thought about this as a possibility... but I don't see how it would work. It may seem like a good idea on the surface, but would you really be able to have SRS and then not live fully as the person who you are? I couldn't do it, myself...

I take your point.

I have thought about this approach for a number of years, to be honest. I mentioned it in a post almost a year ago.

My feeling is that, firstly, I need to be rid of the ugly bit. (Sorry for the euphamism). From there I could start to build.

I did live as female, for a short time, in my late teens. It didn't work out for a number of reasons, not least being, that I wasn't emotionally or intellectually prepared.

But the assertion, not being the person I am. I would be the person I am. I would gradually develop, as everyone does, and become whatever I will.

I appreciate that many have their idea of what they hope to achieve. I respect that, completely.

For me, personally, the idea of becoming an instant female just seems a bit.....  ???

Once the ugly bit is removed, I would need to take HRT for the rest of my life. There is no reason I couldn't take female hormones. I would prefer that. From there I would develop as naturally as my body intends. I might end up being astonishingly ugly. I could feature on the cover of Time as the world's ugliest woman.

I doubt there is a young girl in existance that doesn't hope to grow up to be beautiful, or a boy who doesn't hope to be a big all male he-man. But everyone has to take what they get.

I'd like surgery to correct this terrible flaw. From there, I'd prefer to take my chances like almost everyone else has done. Then, I could develop my personality, my character and my relationships from the psoition of who I am, not this freak with a stinking stupid ugly bit.

You know something. I've learnt so much on Susans'. One thing I've learnt is that we can be who we are. Hormone therapy has some remarkable effects. Look at Jerica, Izuma, Megan, Nicky.

I'd really like to be a stunning, 20 something female, sauntering down the street, with guys in big cars, running into each other because they can't take their eyes off me. I'd like to have the personality of Jerica, the compassion of Megan. But I'm ready to settle for me.

Perhaps I'm just looking at thigs a bit differently. I see the ugly bit as a big poison, a ball and chain, a 10th class citizen's card, limiting what I can do, who I can be. It's a prison, holding me in, while the rest of the world carries on. It smells. It hurts. It's distorted my once lovely body into a hulk of hair and social expectations.

I'd better stop now or I might be advised to finish this in the PMS section.  :)

If you've hadthe patience to read this far. Thank you.

Quote from: rejennyrated on January 13, 2011, 05:58:40 AM
I think you will find this very difficult to do for all sorts of reasons that I have already explained in your previous similar thread. Not least the fact that there is a much higher incidence of regret amongst those who attempt this sort of thing, and those who do something like this and end up with regrets do have a very nasty habit of then trying to sue the doctors involved ala Sam Kane in the UK who now wants SRS banned simply because HE made a mistake!

As it happens I do know of one person who did this but unfortunately for you I would not really be able to use them as an example of success, and therefore actually I have to say that in your therapists shoes I too would be resisting, based on the fact that I have seen it fail.

It seems I am trying to hard for outside validation AKA "the pat on the back" telling me everything will be ok. I know why the SOC are there and their purpose.

I dont want to be another statistic i just want to be me.

I will acomplish my goal my one day of that i am certain. if as they say wisdom is gained through adversity then when i do make the all in final plunge hopefully me and my loved ones will be better for it.

-jessi

"It is not the destination but journey that defines us"  - Tasslehoff Burrfoot

In Thailand, it's illegal for them to operate without RLE being completed, same with 1 year on hormones, psych approval and an actual diagnosis. I know RLE is scary, I know a few people that have transitioned late in life, they pass fine after a good 6-12 months on HRT. The point of RLE is to show that this is what you really need and not just a "I woke up this morning and wanted a vagina".
None of us want to see anymore statistics, if this is what you need then DO IT and jump through the stupid hoops. In the end, it's worth it.

Quote from: sarahm on January 13, 2011, 12:14:41 PM
In Thailand, it's illegal for them to operate without RLE being completed, same with 1 year on hormones, psych approval and an actual diagnosis. I know RLE is scary, I know a few people that have transitioned late in life, they pass fine after a good 6-12 months on HRT. The point of RLE is to show that this is what you really need and not just a "I woke up this morning and wanted a vagina".
None of us want to see anymore statistics, if this is what you need then DO IT and jump through the stupid hoops. In the end, it's worth it.

Exactly so! Good post!

Quote from: jessicas37 on January 12, 2011, 10:59:51 PM
I am just wondering if anyone has or know of anyone whom has gone through srs but continued to work as male.
FYI i am 37 and in a highly visible carrear and have only 8 years till i can retire, my sister and mother both are small breasted A cups so i doubt my development will be much especially with my age. I have discussed the rtl with my dr and she feels the rtl is important and i agree.But i am in a special circumstance and was looking for a president to go by for some reassurance. i and 5"7 good height but overwieght @ 241 though i am dropping faster now that i gave up the mt dew. just looking for some helpful advice that is all..........jessi

We're all special.

Quote from: sarahm on January 13, 2011, 12:14:41 PM
In Thailand, it's illegal for them to operate without RLE being completed, same with 1 year on hormones, psych approval and an actual diagnosis. I know RLE is scary, I know a few people that have transitioned late in life, they pass fine after a good 6-12 months on HRT. The point of RLE is to show that this is what you really need and not just a "I woke up this morning and wanted a vagina".
None of us want to see anymore statistics, if this is what you need then DO IT and jump through the stupid hoops. In the end, it's worth it.

I appreciate that and the points about people acting on a whim. Though the arguments are specious and the claims about the fools are both exagerated and overstated, I fully accept that these are the conditions set by those with the authority. I will add that, though I, along with every medical practitioner in the UK, maintained millions of pounds in liability cover, there has never been a successful case, that I know of, where someone has successfully sued for plastic surgery, simply because they changed their mind. I doubt there has been such a case, outside of the US.

My own position is that I would like to reach and explore my reality in my own time and with some sembalance of nature. Ideally, I would have preferred to transsion as a child and had hormone blockers at pubitry. But none of that is going to happen.

I fully appreciate that many seek to transision as quickly as possible. I fully appreciate that many want to take advantage of all that modern medical technology has to offer. I am truely happy for you.

But I am not a preforming clown for the amusement and experience of some therapist with questionable qualifications and beliefs. I wear jeans, Doc Martein shoes and a sweat shirt because they are comfortable. I don't wear a bra because I don't have anything to put into it. I don't wear makeup for the same reason my wife doesn't and many woman don't.  I don't shave the hair on my face, completely off, because I don't want to damage my skin, for the time when I can become the physical woman I have always been.

I am presenting as woman now. I have been presenting as woman for years. I have a RLE. But no therapist would accept that. They want me to preform.

It's not that RLE is scary, it's that it is utterly ridiculous. Because it is a subjective judgement of what a woman should look like.

It seems unlikely I will ever be rid of all of my facial hair. I doubt I could afford even a short course of treatment. The hair of my head is thining. There is little I can do about that. I really don't care if my breasts grow. It would be nice if they did. It would be nice of they reached ideal proportions and didn't hurt my back. But I am ready to accept what nature throws at me.

As I said, I am very pleased for those of you who have or are going through the current procedures.

I am already a woman. I don't need to prove that to anyone. I have alwasy been a woman and always been totally aware of it. I play the fake man because I earn my living that way.

I would like to have the opportunity to have my ugly bit removed. But the price, my dignity, not to mention my soul, is a bit too high for me.

Quote from: sarahm on January 13, 2011, 12:14:41 PM
In Thailand, it's illegal for them to operate without RLE being completed, same with 1 year on hormones, psych approval and an actual diagnosis.

Hmm. Considering that one of the people mentioned in this thread was confirmed for surgery in Thailand without meeting these requirements, I'd say that they only notionally apply (i.e. they are for appearances only) or the person lied to the surgeon.

Quote from: spacial on January 13, 2011, 02:52:10 PM
I am already a woman. I don't need to prove that to anyone. I have alwasy been a woman and always been totally aware of it. I play the fake man because I earn my living that way.

I would like to have the opportunity to have my ugly bit removed. But the price, my dignity, not to mention my soul, is a bit too high for me.

If you're a woman already, why do you need the 'ugly bit' removed?
Genitalia shouldn't be gendered by appearance. A woman can have a penis. A man can have a vagina. Your penis is female. If you can accept that all the rest of your presentation is female, then why not your genitals?

Ok lets not have a shooting war starting here.

Clearly Vexing is correct in so far as to say otherwise would be to claim that non-ops are not valid in their chosen gender. That would be a breach of TOS rules. So clearly it must be considered possible to be a woman even if you still have your original genital configuration.

BUT

If Vexing takes herself out of dispassionate debating mode for a moment, I am sure she would agree that the fact that so many of us do want SRS means that we can understand where Spacial and others are coming from. Ultimately we all wanted that little bit removed or we would not now be postop.

So Vexing - I call you on your debating stance. Your point is correct, but unfortunately as someone who, like me, obviously wanted to be rid of that part, and indeed has undergone the treatment, your stance is not entirely an intellectually honest one. So you can hardly hold that position and expect Spacial to suddenly agree that actually she does not want to have the operation which you and I have both had the benefit of.

The bottom line however is that the standards of care guidelines, love them or hate them, were put in place to safeguard both the doctors and the patients to some extent. They help the patient to be sure that what they are doing is what they REALLY want, and not an ill thought out whim. When you go through transition it is a wakeup call. This is no longer the dream in which everything would be perfect. It is the hard reality, where everything is decidedly imperfect. Now the question becomes -is this imperfection what I really want? When you have lived through the struggle of RLE you will know the answer.

Secondly In conducting SRS you are asking a doctor to remove healthy tissue, which technically would be a violation of their Hippocratic oath. So at very least you owe it to them to do whatever they deem necessary to allow them to perceive the treatment as necessary and therefore permissible under that oath.

Oh by the way Vex - I love your little limericks in the signature. Very funny! You should compile a book of them and publish.

I'm not actually taking any particular stance; I'm asking Spacial questions.

Quote from: Vexing on January 13, 2011, 04:05:20 PM
I'm not actually taking any particular stance; I'm asking Spacial questions.

A very skillful debating technique that I was taught myself - but sadly am not as good at as I would like. Make your "opponent" come to you by asking the right questions.

In all seriousness you really should run for political office. You would be brilliant!

But my point is that the answer to the question - we know - Of course one can be female with inappropriate bits, it's just not a comfortable state to be in for most of us.

Quote from: rejennyrated on January 13, 2011, 04:17:07 PM
But my point is that the answer to the question - we know - Of course one can be female with inappropriate bits, it's just not a comfortable state to be in for most of us.

And that's where the questions lead: is this person dysphoric about their genitals or do they want them removed because they consider that penises and testicles are inherently male?

I'm simply saying that, my ideal would be to have what is between my legs, configured to suit my image of who I am.

It has been responsible for altering my body, distorting into a shape and feel that makes me uncomfortable and has pressured me into conforming to a role that I'm not suited for.

I respect the wishes of others, to have procedures on other areas, so they can present as female more quickly. But I would be happy to have, just that part corrected, then, with HRT, allow my body to develop in its own time.

I was adding that, I see my entire life as RLE. I may not be a conventional woman, but I feel somewhat insulted that I should have to prove it, by acting according to some else's image of what a woman is.

I'm sorry about being so long winded. It must be difficult to follow what someone is saying when they rant, 10 to the dozen.

Thank you Jenny for clarifying my points. It really makes a difference to know I'm not talking to empty space. I understand that Vexing has a tendency to dispasionate argument. But I doubt we would want her any other way.  :)

Thanks Spacial, my curiosity is satisfied  :)

Quote from: Vexing on January 13, 2011, 04:21:05 PM
And that's where the questions lead: is this person dysphoric about their genitals or do they want them removed because they consider that penises and testicles are inherently male?

A very good point indeed, and of course as that is also really precisely the point of the RLE, in essence we are all converging on the same point from slightly differing trajectories.

Quote from: Vexing on January 13, 2011, 04:21:05 PM
And that's where the questions lead: is this person dysphoric about their genitals or do they want them removed because they consider that penises and testicles are inherently male?

This person tends to use the term dysmorphic. Not because she has any real problem with dysphoria, but because her problem is with the physical feature that has poisoned her body and dictated a social role that she finds almost impossible to furfil.

This person has quite a lot of dysphoria, but has long since accepted that this is caused by multipul issues, not least, her own failure to properly manage her emotions.

This person, strangely enough, has few illusions that, dealing with her dysmorphia as she wishes, will lead to any sort of carthsis, or ephany. Life will continue much as it is. But this person can see out the remainder as a whole person, rather than as a freak with a smelly, ugly bit.

I fully support you in this; as you know, I'm the first to yell "MY BODY, MY CHOICE!" when people try to gate-keep and otherwise impede surgeries.
If Cat Man and Lizard Man are allowed to do such extensive surgical modifications without psych evals, then why aren't we?
(Which poses an interesting question: will Lizard Man have his penis turned into a cloaca?)

First, a minor point, for which I apologize, but I two people have used the word "dispassionate", and I am curious if that is the word you wanted. My dictionary defines the word as:

Quotenot influenced by strong emotion, and so able to be rational and impartial : she dealt with life's disasters in a calm, dispassionate way.

Quote from: Vexing on January 13, 2011, 03:30:59 PM
If you're a woman already, why do you need the 'ugly bit' removed?
Genitalia shouldn't be gendered by appearance. A woman can have a penis. A man can have a vagina. Your penis is female. If you can accept that all the rest of your presentation is female, then why not your genitals?

Vexing, you asked a question that I wrestle with. What I want for SRS is the complete system: vagina--yes, but also ovaries and uterus. Let my body produce my hormones naturally.

And for other surgery, beyond the nose job, I would like wider hips and straighter legs, possibly toed inward, rather than out.

But I, too, am a woman now, a male-bodied woman, but I will always be, to a significant extent, a male-bodied woman.

What about that "ugly bit". That ugly bit gave me four children, I love deeply, and regret not at all. My wife, partner, significant other, and closest, dearest friend likes that ugly bit and wants to continue to use it. I don't want a new partner of either sex. She is OK with my GID, but opposes SRS and RLE. Otherwise, she is willing to make accommodations, though she doesn't understand why anyone would want to have to wear a bra.

And, finally, like Spacial, my inner woman is an individual. Like my wife (and my ex-wife), I am not into makeup, though I do study the magazine articles. In fact, I am not a very girly girl, at all. Jewelry is unimportant. Pierced anything is not for me. Nor are high heels. I don't frequent bars. I am an inept dancer (though I would like to try following, rather than leading).

If am am a stereotype, I guess I am the little, old lady in tennis shoes who is passionate about feminism and environmental issues and a member of the League of Women Voters. Indeed, I was an auxiliary member of the League before men were admitted as full members. The local newspaper interviewed me when I became the first male member of the League in our town.

So I feel that what I need to work on, with the help of my therapist, is how to live most fully as the woman I am in the body I was given. Spacial, I don't know whether I have helped or hurt your argument; I do hope you get everything you need.

S

Quote from: Simone Louise on January 13, 2011, 06:16:03 PM
First, a minor point, for which I apologize, but I two people have used the word "dispassionate", and I am curious if that is the word you wanted. My dictionary defines the word as:

"not influenced by strong emotion, and so able to be rational and impartial : she dealt with life's disasters in a calm, dispassionate way."

How are you able to accurately divine a persons emotional state via plain text?

Quote from: Simone Louise on January 13, 2011, 06:16:03 PM
Spacial, I don't know whether I have helped or hurt your argument; I do hope you get everything you need.

S

Simone Louise.

Thank you so much for asking and the consideration.

To be quite honest, I'm really past the point of winning in that way. I've known who I am for so long.

Like others here, as a young child, I would wake up and gingerly put my hand between my legs, just to see if, by some chance, it had gone away in the night.

I much have been one of those rather determined children. I had some plan to grow up, leave home, get a job and an appartment and start wearing a dress. I also intended moving well away from anyone I knew, not because I didn't want them to know, but because I didn't want them to stop me. I daydreamed that, after I was settled as a woman, they would come to visit and be unable to do anything.

Life has a way of popping childish bubbles. Reality bites. But my ambition remains.

As I've gotten older and obligations have been added to pressures, I've had to rely upon my mind more than my body. I sometimes walk down the road or even when I'm working, imagining I'm physically female and that other accept this.

Susans' has been quite important for a number of reasons. Firstly, learning so much. I really didn't know about female hormones. I knew what there were, of course. I knew that post op transgender people took them I knew that some, but not all transgender people look pretty female. But I've learnt the astonishing changes that can come from them now. Looking at some of the older members here, you can see women.

Another aspect of Susans' for me at least, has been the amazing effect of actually saying things. Even being able to say, I am a woman is so cathartic. It's like being able to finally reveal a secret that's been kept hidden for so long. It's competely diffrent from being on some other web site and presenting as female. There, I need to maintain a lie.

I find myself, with a slightly different set of ambitions than many others here, simply because, I no-longer feel any desperate need to appear as a female. I am and if others don't like or accept that, that is their problem. When I was younger I would have dearly loved to appear female. I would especially have loved to present as female when I was nursing. I could have been a great nurse.

But I do, so much want to be rid of the ugly bit. Until recently, it was probably more out of resentment for what it has done to me. But on a psychological level, that would have been a treasure chest of 'issues'. Now, I realise just how much difference, getting rid of it would make, my ambition has a rational aspect.

But I really respect the feelings and ambitions of others. One thing that 50+ years of being a female, whose life is dominated by an ugly growth has taught me is, each of us has ambitions and no matter how different thay may be from our own, each deserves respect.

Quote from: spacial on January 13, 2011, 08:32:30 PM
I find myself, with a slightly different set of ambitions than many others here, simply because, I no-longer feel any desperate need to appear as a female. I am and if others don't like or accept that, that is their problem. When I was younger I would have dearly loved to appear female. I would especially have loved to present as female when I was nursing. I could have been a great nurse.

You have never been anything but 110% female in my mind's eye.

Quote from: spacial on January 13, 2011, 08:32:30 PM
I much have been one of those rather determined children. I had some plan to grow up, leave home, get a job and an appartment and start wearing a dress. I also intended moving well away from anyone I knew, not because I didn't want them to know, but because I didn't want them to stop me. I daydreamed that, after I was settled as a woman, they would come to visit and be unable to do anything.

When I was young, living in the second city, I dreamed of living in the woods, just me and my friends, the animals. It would have been like being Snow White, minus the dwarves, though I don't remember anything about clothing.

Later, I was determined to become an astronaut. Exploring space would be so big a project, that the US and USSR would be forced to cooperate, and the world would come to know peace. I wanted to be a pioneer, setting up the first permanent settlement on Mars, which would be governed compassionately, democratically, and with respect for individual differences. I did design clothes for this venture. I would wear a long-sleeved white shirt with puffy translucent sleeves, a bright colored tunic, knee britches, long stockings, and buckled shoes.

Among my favorite movies, ever since I saw them first run, were Gigi and My Fair Lady. In my imagination, someone would come along and make me into a proper lady.

Susan's has made a big difference in my life, too.

S

Quote from: Vexing on January 13, 2011, 06:25:48 PM
How are you able to accurately divine a persons emotional state via plain text?

Sorry for the delay. I didn't divine anyone's emotional state. It merely seemed incongruous to suggest that someone was a skilled debater, intellectually dishonest, should run for political office--and was uninfluenced by emotion, rational, and impartial.

Btw I was a debater for my congregation's youth group. We debated another congregation 250 miles away on the subject: "Should Judaism have a creed?". I lost that debate in spectacular fashion with a passionate defense of the right of Jews to have Christmas trees. Several years later, a spectator I met in college remembered me.

S

Quote from: Simone Louise on January 15, 2011, 09:49:48 PM
Sorry for the delay. I didn't divine anyone's emotional state. It merely seemed incongruous to suggest that someone was a skilled debater, intellectually dishonest, should run for political office--and was uninfluenced by emotion, rational, and impartial.

S

So what you're saying essentially is that no person can possess these qualities? Or just me?

Quote from: Vexing on January 15, 2011, 09:56:12 PM
So what you're saying essentially is that no person can possess these qualities? Or just me?

I simply asked whether that was the intended word.

S

Quote from: Simone Louise on January 15, 2011, 10:03:09 PM
I simply asked whether that was the intended word.

S

Sorry, I don't follow. Where was the 'incongruity' that you mentioned?

Quote from: Vexing on January 15, 2011, 11:22:06 PM
Sorry, I don't follow. Where was the 'incongruity' that you mentioned?

I expect debaters, lawyers addressing a jury, and politicians to speak with passion, controlled passion, but passion nonetheless. I do not expect them to be impartial, emotionless observers when acting in that role.

S

Quote from: jessicas37 on January 12, 2011, 10:59:51 PM
I am just wondering if anyone has or know of anyone whom has gone through srs but continued to work as male.
FYI i am 37 and in a highly visible carrear and have only 8 years till i can retire, my sister and mother both are small breasted A cups so i doubt my development will be much especially with my age. I have discussed the rtl with my dr and she feels the rtl is important and i agree.But i am in a special circumstance and was looking for a president to go by for some reassurance. i and 5"7 good height but overwieght @ 241 though i am dropping faster now that i gave up the mt dew. just looking for some helpful advice that is all..........jessi

This thread has gone off on an interesting tangent. I want to comment back for the OP, though:

Removing a penis is about the most awful thing anyone can do if they value having a penis. People can call it an "ugly bit" but that doesn't change the fact that the existence or lack of this body part really, really matters in society - socially, legally, culturally, etc.

The fact that having a penis can be just as awful for someone who possesses a "wrongful penis" is not given the same level of concern, not just because lots of people think penises are truly great, but also because once your remove a penis, you can not ever ever ever get one back. Every single erroneous removal of a penis causes significant harm. This is where the risk of threat, regrets, and more comes in. Failure to allow someone to remove a "wrongful penis" can be fixed by later on, allowing removal of this penis. So it's harm is not viewed as being as great (particularly if one is not comparing it against rates of suicide - because dead people can not LATER have a penis removed).

There is enough data now to identify the risk that someone will later regrets transition. The #1 aspect for success is having a support network, followed by factors like - not passing/fitting in as the transitioned sex. If you don't do RLE, you are not establishing the support network. You avoid coming out to people in real life. You avoid seeing how much support you truly have. This is probably the most important piece of the puzzle. Beyond that, you are not demonstrating that you can pass/fit as the transitioned sex. This is not about theatrics or even if you 'pass' nicely as natal. It's about seeing how you get on in society and making sure that YOU are healthy & ok with how you are received in the world, after you have transitioned, whether you present in a stereotypically feminine way or not.

A health care practitioner who is willing to remove your penis without seeing if you actually have the support network first is suspect. I know some people will rail against evil gatekeepers. Except health care providers act as gatekeepers every single day, because they have the ability both to heal and to do great harm. You are not the first person to have a career circumstance that suggests it makes sense to delay transitioning. While you are an individual and not a statistic, anyone who treats you without regard for the data could jeaopardize your health.

Quote from: rejennyrated on January 13, 2011, 04:28:39 PM
A very good point indeed, and of course as that is also really precisely the point of the RLE, in essence we are all converging on the same point from slightly differing trajectories.

I'm not sure I follow you here.

Why isn't it okay if one's motivation to have surgery is to some extent a wish to comply with social norms regarding your gender?

Not complying with the norms has a prize: In my country you can't get a legal gender change without a sex change, your biological sex is exploited every now and then by a coded digit in our person registration number, I can't enter public swimming fascillities without fear or discussions, I sometimes don't feel comfortable in the feminist circles I join because of my knowledge of my body being different and the fear of an unpleasant discussion should it get discovered.
I always need to deal with issues about changing rooms when I start new clinical trainings, because some people may be uncomfortable whatever I do. For simmilar reasons I was not allowed to join a national figure skating camp. Nor a skiing trip arranged by my own class mates.
Then comes the question of dating. I've declined numerous invitations, because I would feel uncomfortable naked. When my clothes - call it identity equipment -is stripped away my identity becomes open for questions. It never is when I'm dressed. I had a relationship with a ->-bleeped-<- ->-bleeped-<- once, but she insisted I acted male in bed.

I think Isis King, the Top Model contestant, illustrated what a penis means to a womans self confidence, when she is under pressure. There was a very small reason she did fail that bikini shoot, you know!

As a transgender and queer activist I might claim: "There is more to gender than genitals!" and the like, yet I have to chose between living an endless fight against the sex roles surrounding me or just adapting and enjoying life in compliance with the gender that suits me. And as they say: Pick your fights wisely!

It seems that the women who keep their original plumbing are coincidentally often living part time as males or aren't fully assured about their position gender wise?



Tippe

Quote from: Simone Louise on January 16, 2011, 09:14:51 AM
I expect debaters, lawyers addressing a jury, and politicians to speak with passion, controlled passion, but passion nonetheless. I do not expect them to be impartial, emotionless observers when acting in that role.

S

Righto.

Quote from: Sean on January 16, 2011, 10:59:50 AM
If you don't do RLE, you are not establishing the support network. You avoid coming out to people in real life. You avoid seeing how much support you truly have. This is probably the most important piece of the puzzle. Beyond that, you are not demonstrating that you can pass/fit as the transitioned sex. This is not about theatrics or even if you 'pass' nicely as natal. It's about seeing how you get on in society and making sure that YOU are healthy & ok with how you are received in the world, after you have transitioned, whether you present in a stereotypically feminine way or not.

I agree with this.

Sooner or later you're going to have to confront your fears of telling your surroundings about your identity. Doing so and beginning to adapt to the gender role you're later wanting to fit into will serve you well.
You may see this as gender expression experimentation at a time, where you can relatively easy go back if it didn't suit you.
Same goes with hormones. You have about half a year to play around before any permanent changes take effect. Use it well! The more experience you get prior to surgery the better. When it's gone, it's gone, wether you like the effects of the surgery or the required hormonal threatments then. Go by reversible steps first before you opt for the irreversible ones.



Tippe

Quote from: Sean on January 16, 2011, 10:59:50 AM

There is enough data now to identify the risk that someone will later regrets transition. The #1 aspect for success is having a support network, followed by factors like - not passing/fitting in as the transitioned sex. If you don't do RLE, you are not establishing the support network. You avoid coming out to people in real life. You avoid seeing how much support you truly have. This is probably the most important piece of the puzzle. Beyond that, you are not demonstrating that you can pass/fit as the transitioned sex. This is not about theatrics or even if you 'pass' nicely as natal. It's about seeing how you get on in society and making sure that YOU are healthy & ok with how you are received in the world, after you have transitioned, whether you present in a stereotypically feminine way or not.

A health care practitioner who is willing to remove your penis without seeing if you actually have the support network first is suspect. I know some people will rail against evil gatekeepers. Except health care providers act as gatekeepers every single day, because they have the ability both to heal and to do great harm. You are not the first person to have a career circumstance that suggests it makes sense to delay transitioning. While you are an individual and not a statistic, anyone who treats you without regard for the data could jeaopardize your health.

I understand your point Sean. I also accept that these are the predominant notions at this time.

My own case though is that I don't want this stuff. I never have.

I understand your points about support networks. But respectfully disagree. I would never do this or anything else, without the support of my wife and her immediate family. They are the only people who matter to me.

As far as the rest of the world is concerned, they will never see what I have inside my pants, so it really is none of their business.

I think this support network notion is from the same school of thought as the comming out for gay people. I don't accept that either.

Gay people don't need to excuse themselves and certainly not their partner. If a man, for example, gets an invation for a party with his partner and his partner is a man, then why should that be an issue? They invited someone to a party together with his partner. It really is no-one's place to judge, if that partner is a man, an elderly woman, black or someone with three legs. It's his partner.

Quite frankly, I view the whole coming out notion as treating gay people as second class. they must come out so that others can make up ther minds if they wish to associate with them.

If you invite someone to a party, you have presumably done so because you think they will fit in with the crowd and enjoy it.

But the aquiecence of much the gay community to this nonsense is perhaps indicative that many still see themselves as second class. Though, in the case of many public figures, they may be thinking of their public image, which earns them their living.

The issue of people changing their minds is a bit different. Some people get tatoos and change their minds of course. But from a medical/legal aspect, if the practitioner has satisfied themselves that the client is sane and genuinely wants a procedure, then there can be no legal recourse of they change their minds later.

I could make a comparison with circumscision. It's permanent, virtually impossible to reverse and involves removal of a healthy, functioning organ, for aesthetic reasons.

The problem with that comparison is that removal of my ugly bit is not only for aesthetic reasons, it is also to eliminate the poison which has distorted my body.

Quote from: Tippe on January 16, 2011, 11:56:22 AM
I agree with this.

Sooner or later you're going to have to confront your fears of telling your surroundings about your identity. Doing so and beginning to adapt to the gender role you're later wanting to fit into will serve you well.
You may see this as gender expression experimentation at a time, where you can relatively easy go back if it didn't suit you.
Same goes with hormones. You have about half a year to play around before any permanent changes take effect. Use it well! The more experience you get prior to surgery the better. When it's gone, it's gone, wether you like the effects of the surgery or the required hormonal threatments then. Go by reversible steps first before you opt for the irreversible ones.



Tippe

With respect Tippe. I have no intention of excusing myself to anyone. I won't ask permission to exist.

If, one day I decide to get a purple mohechan hair cut, a ring through my nose, wear a multicoloured, flowery shirt, bursh demem flaired trowsers and strap sandals, then that is my choice. (With the exception of the hair and the nose ring, I did once have clothes like that. Oh, for the early 70s!!  :laugh: )

The only situation where your sumation may be relevant is when someone seeks to fully transision and live stealth. That is a valid choice and one which, when I was younger, I would have gone for.

But the issue there is the lifestyle the patient is seeking, not the surgery.

Another adition.

Something's occurred to me.

The way I've constructed the arguments above could be interperted as laying out immutable excused for not transisioning by the conventional route.

I have other issues. I thought I'd make that clear. As much as I would like to move forward in my own way and at my own pace, there are a number of factors making his impossible at this time, sadly.

Quite frankly, if all other things were equal, I would do almost anything to have my ugly bits removed. If the conventional route were the only possible option I would do that.

Seems to me that, once the op is over, I can pretty well do as I please anyway.

I'm making the point that there are other approaches which I suggest, are equally valid.

Quote from: spacial on January 16, 2011, 12:23:55 PM
I could make a comparison with circumscision. It's permanent, virtually impossible to reverse and involves removal of a healthy, functioning organ, for aesthetic reasons.

For some, circumcision is among the most deeply held of religious traditions.

Quote from: spacial on January 16, 2011, 01:21:54 PMI have other issues. I thought I'd make that clear. As much as I would like to move forward in my own way and at my own pace, there are a number of factors making his impossible at this time, sadly.

Quite frankly, if all other things were equal, I would do almost anything to have my ugly bits removed. If the conventional route were the only possible option I would do that.

Standards of Care need to be flexible enough that they do not force sane patients, who have given serious consideration to the options, to lie.

S

Quote from: Simone Louise on January 16, 2011, 02:54:53 PM
For some, circumcision is among the most deeply held of religious traditions.

S

True but it is still elective and aesthetic. Moreover, my need for surgical intervention is based upon a personal and deepy held belief.

I think the comparison is valid.

have you ever wondered what that one leaf left on the branch in the middle of november feels like? you want to hold on with

all your might to stay in the one place you feel comfortable in. But you know if you let go their is a whole new exciting world

beyond.

I have seen many differing matters of opinion on this topic and i think the overwhelming consensus is to follow my dr. advise and go through the RLE.  I will need help along away as i posses no where near the self confidence i will need to accomplish this goal. But with every journey you have to begin somewhere to reach the destination.

thanks all -jessi




"It is not the Ending but the journey that defines us." -Tasselhoff Burrfoot