Susan's Place Transgender Resources

I don't have a religion, I just read the bible and believe what I think it means. I need help though. What does the Bible say about Trannsexuals? I want to be with a girl but as my dear friend said a few hours ago, "Maybe god won't let you be with her because you're a WOMAN and he wants you to be with a MAN not a WOMAN." I just don't know if god loves me or not. Someone please tell me what the Bible says.

No human can speak the mind of God.  This is the greatest sin.  Therefore they are totally wrong.  But they say they speak for God.  They would have a front row seat in hell.

But how do I know if it's wrong or not.

The bible is a guide. Not a set of rules.
If you believe in the bible follow Christianity not Catholocism.
Christianity evolves as the community does and is much more including.
The bible is meant to teach people how to treat each other.
And to LOVE EVERYONE for who they are.
Catholics tend to stick by the man/woman thing but a LOT of Christians are completely accepting of community outside of the norm.
I studied the bible for 10.5 years (not just the bible) and I believe that it is written to be up for each persons interpretation (to a degree obviously).
The bible does have many contradictions, but me, I believe that's it's way of saying "make your own choices, just use what we say here to guide yourself. Only you know what's right in a given situation".

Hope this helps.

It does. I just don't want to tick god off.

Quote1 Samuel 16:7

In this passage, the lowly shepherd David is anointed king of Israel. Samuel assumes the LORD will choose one of David's many handsome brothers, but the LORD says to Samuel:

...I do not judge as man judges. Man looks at the outward appearance, but I look at the heart.

Galatians 3:28

Another catch-all comeback! If someone starts spouting Scripture to justify hating transsexuals, lay this one on them:

...there is neither male nor female, for we are all one in Christ Jesus.

And other stuff. (http://www.tsroadmap.com/mental/spirit.html)

(i don't mean to upset anyone with this post but here goes anyway)

technically, wouldn't it be God's mistake for putting you in the wrong body?
and wouldn't he be happy that you're taking it into your stride and living your life how it was meant to be?

God is made out sometimes to seem like he's an angry, vengeful person, but honestly some religous leaders like to use that as a tactic to scare people into doing what they're told. (not all  but this is a common problem)

God is forgiving and loving.

Kentrie.

It really depends upon what your starting point is.

I struggled with this and many other questions. Like you, I found mixed messages from different groups. The Bible is long and complicated.

One day, I was sent to care from a man who was dying. I was told he was very confused and would need a lot of care. He was in hospital.

I arrived, on time and was shown into a side room.The man was almost comatosed and required no intervention at all.

I hadn't brought anything with me to read. I sat in this bare room. His bed was in front of the window, which was frosted anyway. The walls were bare and within about 10 minutes, I was bored silly.

I found a copy of Gideon's Bible, which is the New Testament only, on a shelf. I decided to read it.

Now, like most people, I'd been brought up on a steady drip feed of excerts from the Bible and really thought I knew what it said. So, I emptied my mind and just read it from the begining. It took about 2 hours to read each gospel.

I won't tell you what to think or believe, that isn't my place. I will tell you to find a quiet place and read the Gospels, from the first, Matthew.

I will say, I now know. I have no doubts. Just read it, the New Testament, from the begining.

Hello Kentrie,
I too struggled with this also. I do agree with Spacial please start with the gospels, but i would also add Romans Chapter 8 as Paul does write about whats wrong with nature and our bodies. This is my opinion only but i believe it shows that there is something wrong with nature and it does not work as it was intended.
I did also find something that really did help me. It may sound a bit silly but ask God how He sees you and ask Him what name He calls you by. He does see the person inside and i believe He knows you by name.

Sarah

It's a story book, what it says about TG or anything else is as valid as what Hansel and Gretel says about it.

I'm Christian and believe the Bible.  Unfortunately plenty of people misinterpret it, and some of our modern translations don't help anything.  There's a lot more to this, and plenty of Focus-on-the-Family-type Christians will disagree with me, but the simplest way I can put this is this:

The Bible says absolutely nothing about transgender people.

Plenty of people have added garbage from their own biases to what the Bible says.  Loving homosexual relationships aren't banned by the Bible either, but plenty of people take a handful of contested verses and make them say something that is unwarranted by context.

Unfortunately plenty of people misinterpret it

Those would be people who read something different into it than you do?  And, of course, the 'right' people interpret it just like you do.  How refreshing.

One thing. God loves everyone He created. We are His creation and He loves us unconditionally. When describing His love for us if you look up the word love that it uses in that context it is Agape. That means unconditional love. That means that no matter what we do, He will love us. It also says that no one sin is worse than another, and we all sin everyday, He just wants us to repent. It is awesome, that He loves us no matter what. It says He knows the amount of hairs on our head, which means he knows everything about us. If you are trans and you like girls then He knows that and He created you that way and still loves you, so dont let anyone else tell you otherwise.

Quote from: tekla on February 07, 2011, 08:59:14 PM
Unfortunately plenty of people misinterpret it

Those would be people who read something different into it than you do?  And, of course, the 'right' people interpret it just like you do.  How refreshing.

I'm not going to get into a fight with you on this.

But, no, that's not what I'd say or what I believe - you definitely read more into my words than were there (I was talking about the concepts of trans people and homosexuals in the Bible, not the entire system).

But I would say that I believe most scholars would agree with me that the Bible says absolutely nothing about transgender people (other than eunuchs and a verse about people in the Jewish law system wearing the "wrong" clothes which is not equivalent at all to cross-dressing) or homosexuality (in the modern, partnership of equals, sense).  But I'm open to your understanding if it's different.  As for other points in the Bible, I'm sure they would disagree with me plenty - and very likely be right about those issues.

But, I would be glad to hear any information you have.  Biblical views of gender is area of interest to me.

Well, to start with, unless your Jewish, you have like less than zero right - or understanding - to 'interpret' Jewish Law.

For my own part, I started on the basis that Jesus is right and anything he says is paramount.

When I read the Gospels, it seemed to me that Jesus was clarifying and emphasising the Commandments.

He also overturned all the Mosaic and subsequent laws, apart from the commandments when he said we are subject to the judgement of no man, that we must never kill and that worship is a provate and personal matter between ourselves and God.

TWO HELPFUL SITES ==> GENDERTREE + GRACE AND LACE

https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,92698.msg675952.html#msg675952 (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,92698.msg675952.html#msg675952)

since your reading check out the sites in the post i left yesterday they may help you.

Quote from: tekla on February 07, 2011, 10:30:55 PM
Well, to start with, unless your Jewish, you have like less than zero right - or understanding - to 'interpret' Jewish Law.

Once again, I would be glad for you to share any information you have.

The bible is just a book made around 2000 years ago and if i remender it was wirten around 50years ago jesus died puls what god wanted 2000 years ago and the way he wanted us to live by has been improved to tell you the turth the book as cause a lot of war instead of peace we use words like god and he loves us for support some time people take it to far and try to use there views on their gods agrest you.
what im trying to say love you for who you are there is no one who will dam you for being ture to your self or trying to live your life the way you wanna.
im not saying the book is not real im just saying all the words in it are not the words of a god but that of a man.
dont wanna sound rude but dont waste your time trying to get though to the people who belive in gods. it might get you killed.
can someone wirte us a new one?

It is so much more relaxing to be Atheist I think.  I just have a hard time that this bible is the 'word of god' ...well, kinda sorta depending on how you interpret it..sorta...my book is right and yours isn't. If the knowledge that a god existed is from a bible and if there are things in the bible that aren't true or accepted by some people then maybe there really isn't a god in the first place. I know that god did in fact lay down laws and most of those laws the penalty is death.

A lot of xtians cherry pick the bible to feel loved, fee superior (to the heathens), judge others (all the time), and a lot use the bible to justify and defend bigotry. They will read a passage that tells them to stone their children for talking back and skip that one but go for the 'hate homosexuals' and use that.

It is possible to 'wake up' and become actually enlightened but it is very hard sometimes.

Quote from: michaeljay on February 07, 2011, 09:25:29 PM
One thing. God loves everyone He created. We are His creation and He loves us unconditionally. When describing His love for us if you look up the word love that it uses in that context it is Agape. That means unconditional love. That means that no matter what we do, He will love us. It also says that no one sin is worse than another, and we all sin everyday, He just wants us to repent. It is awesome, that He loves us no matter what. It says He knows the amount of hairs on our head, which means he knows everything about us. If you are trans and you like girls then He knows that and He created you that way and still loves you, so dont let anyone else tell you otherwise.

DITTO

MICHAEL HAS IT RIGHT

Quote from: Dana Lane on February 08, 2011, 03:01:41 PM
A lot of xtians cherry pick the bible to feel loved, fee superior (to the heathens), judge others (all the time), and a lot use the bible to justify and defend bigotry. They will read a passage that tells them to stone their children for talking back and skip that one but go for the 'hate homosexuals' and use that.

I've seen the same thing, as a Christian.  I don't understand it, either, but it does seem to be quite common - but I hope you know that not everyone who calls themselves a Christian does this kind of garbage.  Unfortunately, most Christians do not use a consistent standard when reading the Bible (well, consistent to an outside observer who doesn't share identical biases, anyhow) and pick what they think fits their bias, missing the whole point.

For instance, Romans has a huge point about "you're no better than the other people", which everything in the book supports, yet people will read Romans 1 and think Paul was saying homosexuality was wrong.  He wasn't.  He was saying, essentially, "YOU think 'these people' are horrible because they do this and this and this (which includes some sort of sex act the people he was writing to thought was wrong, and is translated/mistranslated today as 'homosexuals')."  I can imagine the self-righteous shaking their heads saying, "Yep, Paul's really laying into them!  Good!"  Then Paul says, "And you're condemned to hell for judging them."  He goes through the book comparing and contrasting Jew and Gentile, explaining that neither is better than the other.  Yet, people ignore all that and focus on Romans 1 and end up drawing exactly the opposite conclusion than the book itself draws - but it fits their bias, so it must be right...too often, our biases are how we judge things (myself included).

(disclaimer, since it appears necessary: Maybe I'm wrong, that's fine - I'm only stating my beliefs and opinions, anyone else is welcome to theirs; I wouldn't say it if I didn't think it was 'right' just as I suspect nobody else here is saying things they think are wrong.  But that doesn't mean I am close minded towards alternatives, simply that I haven't yet been convinced otherwise)

What is very sad for me is that i believe that a lot of people who claim to be Christian miss one very major point that was suppose to be evident as a sign that they were follows of Jesus. He was quoted as saying "They will know you are my disciples by the love you have one for another" and Paul also wrote that the evidences would be the fruits of love,joy,peace,patience,goodness, kindness,gentleness,faithfulness and self control. But way to often they are lacking.

Quote from: Dana Lane on February 08, 2011, 03:01:41 PM
A lot of xtians cherry pick the bible to feel loved, fee superior (to the heathens), judge others (all the time), and a lot use the bible to justify and defend bigotry. They will read a passage that tells them to stone their children for talking back and skip that one but go for the 'hate homosexuals' and use that.

The Bible is designed to be cherry-picked.  Virtually everything in the Bible is contradicted somewhere else in the Bible, sometimes even in the same book.  This is why I got out of making Biblical arguments a long time ago.  It's impossible to tell what the Bible is actually promoting.

Basically, don't  get too hung up on the whole thing. 

If you believe in God, then you ,by inference, have to believe that he knows you inside out, and understands you totally, so can't be pissed off.

Anyone who says,"The Bible says that...", is mistaken.  Books don't talk ( yes, Tekla I know there are audio books  ::)  ), what they should say is, "The following is written in this particular edition of the Bible, and I (or Pastor X, or the Pope etc)  interpret it to mean ...".

So, unless they have a direct line to the Almighty, their opinion is no more valid than your own.
And anyone who claims God talks to them directly and personally, as a Prophet, is really a candidate for the Psych Ward.

Quote from: VeryGnawty on February 09, 2011, 12:20:36 AM
The Bible is designed to be cherry-picked.  Virtually everything in the Bible is contradicted somewhere else in the Bible, sometimes even in the same book.  This is why I got out of making Biblical arguments a long time ago.  It's impossible to tell what the Bible is actually promoting.

With respect, only because of the way you read it.

Most of the Old Testament is historical narritive. It covers a long period when situations changed repeatedly. Even the most devout Jews don't try to adheir to it all.

But for Christians, the Old Testament is for historical reference. We follow the teachings of Jesus, which are very different.

For me, personally, I take the teachings of Jesus to be paramount. Anything that appears later is, for me, just local opinion.

But it's important to be aware of those that claim Biblical justification while saying things that contradict Jesus.

However many references someone can come up with to justify, killing, hatred, adultry, judging each other or public displays of worship, these contradict Jesus.

Even the most devout Jews don't try to adheir to it all.

See: Hasidic culture and Lubavitch movement.

I too am a Christian, and the best way is trust His Grace and know He is a wonderful understanding God...

Disclaimer; I'm not Chirstian and have a very different view of god than most people. I did study theology for a year and a half (not what it sounds like and that doesn't make me any kind of expert). The following is strictly my opinion.

Quotetechnically, wouldn't it be God's mistake for putting you in the wrong body?

[begin preachiness]

I don't believe god makes mistakes, that is a human trait. I don't feel like a mistake and I don't believe I'm a mistake.

I am the way I am, made the way I was meant to be made (if you believe that kind of thing). God has given me a great gift; to live at and experience both ends of the gender spectrum and I am a better person for it. There is suffering in all of life (that's the buddhist in me) not just because I'm transsexual but because I'm human and I'm alive.

God has given us something wonderful, there's no way it's a mistake.

[end preachiness]

rar - thank you much. My siblings are very religious and this will be helpful when I come out to them.

Who wrote the Bible?  Man or God?

From what source did you derive your answers to the above?  God or man?

If you were raised Buddhist, would you have the identical belief systems as Christians?

What will happen to those raised in different faiths?  Will God punish them for not being Christian?

Remember, history tells us Christianity conquered.  And that didn't happen because it was the religion of God or a really attractive choice.  People were pressured, harassed, persecuted, tortured and killed in that conquest.  Conquest as in war.  Does anyone with a reasonable mind think God created all those people who have suffered in that conquest with intent they will be crushed for the benefit of Christianity?

God in heaven: "Let's see I'll make 10,000 people to be placed on the rack, 8,500 to be put into the whirligig, a whole bunch for burning at the stake all in my name and glory.  And these people here will carry out my will.  Sounds like a GREAT plan!"

I kinda doubt it.

God is love and love is god so let us make a resting place in our heart for God / Love

Quote from: M2MtF2FtM on February 09, 2011, 02:25:38 PM
God is love and love is god so let us make a resting place in our heart for God / Love

amen

A bigname scientist was giving a lecture on astronomy. After the lecture, an elderly lady came up and told the scientist that he had it all wrong. 'The world is really a flat plate supported on the back of a giant tortoise." The scientist asked "And what is the turtle standing on?"

To which the lady triumphantly replied: "You're very clever, young man, but it's no use -- it's turtles all the way down."

Even if it does not mention TS by name this passage of St. Matthew 19:12  had always had me intrigued. Jesus says:
"For there are some eunuchs, which were born from their mother's womb: and there are some enunchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it." KJV.
This passage gives me some hope of being accepted into God's kingdom. We as TG's mostly fit into the third cause Jesus mentioned of being an eunuch. We do things like HRT, orchies, surgeries, etc to remove or supress the function of the male organ that would define one as an eunuch.  Some of those eunuchs at that time did form the female secondary characteristics and lived as females. 

I believe there are some rules we must follow:
1) God is the Lord:  God does not make mistakes. Keep your faith in God.
2) God gives us each challenges in our lives, what we do with them we have to follow God's rules.
3) If we that are born males want to be women, we shall follow the biblical and your government rules regarding women.

I don't usually dwell on this passage, I'm too busy debunking some other's interpretation or theories of the book of Daniel and the book of Revelation! These two are dangerous territory!
Joelene.

I always refer people to this site with questions about Transsexuality and Christianity.

People will use all kinds of parts of the bible and throw them at you to say why being TS is wrong but this site has all the rebuttals and they make quite a lot of good sense:

http://www.transchristians.org/ (http://www.transchristians.org/)

Quote from: tekla on February 09, 2011, 09:20:00 AM
Even the most devout Jews don't try to adheir to it all.

See: Hasidic culture and Lubavitch movement.

With respect, to you and to these two, undoubtedly find groups, they are not following everything. Some may argue they aren't following any of it.

Quote from: Janet Lynn on February 07, 2011, 05:35:34 PM
No human can speak the mind of God.  This is the greatest sin.  Therefore they are totally wrong.  But they say they speak for God.  They would have a front row seat in hell.

that's completely right. if we're supposed to believe that god makes no mistakes, why bother with anything?

Thanks, Jerica for that link.
It confirms on some of the data on other well-known transwomen I usually gotten from the printed word (books, newspapers, etc.).
It also has more updated autobios than what I found on the internet these past 2 years. Some are missing, either the link is bad, dropped or the author changed her web address. A lot of good debunking on this site. Most of her explanations about God and ->-bleeped-<- follows closely to what I believe in. The same bible passages as well. Thanks again and God bless.
Joelene

I just read where a new version of the Bible is coming out in a day or two here in the US, with "confusing words" or words that have changed meaning over the last twenty year being modified.  I am mildly concerned about who were the main force behind this version, but it does point out a very common problem in taking your religion "Only from the Bible"  I have over thirty different versions of the Bible on my bookshelf, or in digital format.  I am also a lector in my church who reads the Old Testament and or the Epistles aloud during the principal worship services on Sundays and other feast days. In reading the passages aloud, I impart some of my own biases just by how I intone the words and punctualtion.  The Bible is a good friend that I do listen to, but its not a replacement for ALL of the other books that I own that deal with more of society and how we as humans fit together in known verbal and written history and in history derived from the studies of archeology and anthropology.  None of the people whose ideas began the making of the Bible could in any way see what we would be like today and the ideas behind their words are not the same as we have today for those same words.  We can put a date on when the word "Transsexual" was coined, and its less than two centuries old, it would not have been a familiar concept to Abraham or Melchizadek, and definitely not to Adam.  Neither would it have been known to any of the "church fathers" who influenced the canon that would beccome the Bible from all the scriptures known in the first 4 centuries of Christianity.  We still see people today who will proclaim that space flight is an affront to the power of God, but the Bible did not portend the Challenger disaster twenty years ago, and maybe they are true to what the original story telliers/priests/shamans would think about space flight, but that was yesterday, a good many of them ago.  I know my transgender state is not listed in the Bible, and so it does say nothing. An old friend though just whispered to me "For everything there is a season, and a time for every matter under heaven:.... (Ecclesiastes 3).  Thats a scripture you could make a hit song from, (they did in the 60's)  I am here, I am transgendered, tomorrow the sun will be shining here in So CAL which is not in the Bible either.   

I own one copy of the bible.  It's over 60 years old and the cover is pretty tattered, but that's not from me reading it.  It's a family heirloom.  That's why I keep it.

Even without the bible guiding me through my life, I have managed to do pretty well.  I haven't ever intentionally harmed another person.  I am thoughtful, considerate and kind.  I enjoy helping people and like putting a smile on their face.  If the (Wo)Man In The Sky were to come down and assess my life, I think (s)he'd say I did a pretty good job of treating his creations well.

And I did all of that without once using the bible as a guide for living.  I'd say that's pretty amazing, considering how some people say you're going to hell if you don't heed the words of the bible.  But I know I'm not so special.  The majority of people I know have done the very same thing.

Quote from: SpaceyGirl on February 16, 2011, 04:44:19 PMif we're supposed to believe that god makes no mistakes, why bother with anything?

Because the belief you are talking about is a tautology.  If God makes no mistakes, then everything that happens is God's plan.  If you get cancer, it is God's will.  If you don't see a doctor because you believe God will heal you, it is God's will.  If you die anyway, it is God's will.  If you did go to the doctor, it is God's will.  If the doctor cures your cancer, it is God's will.  If the doctor doesn't cure your cancer and you die anyway, it is God's will.

But somehow, GRS and HRT are not God's will.  But if everything that happens is a part of God's plan (as I've heard many believers claim) then it is necessary that ->-bleeped-<- be God's will, because there is nothing in existence that could possibly happen that can't be God's will.  Even the fundamentalist's opposition to ->-bleeped-<- could also be construed as God's will.

This is why I find most religious debates to be useless.  Many believers hold onto contradictory and illogical beliefs which make it impossible to hold any type of reasonable debate.

Going back to the OP-

Quote from: Kentrie on February 07, 2011, 05:20:48 PM
I don't have a religion, I just read the bible and believe what I think it means.

It sounds like you need to clarify in your own mind just what you believe, because being a Christian is really an all or nothing decision.  You can't in all honesty be a "little bit Christian", (same goes for being a Jew or a Muslim too I would think.)

If you are a Christian, then the Bible is relevant.  If you aren't, then it is just another book, so why should you worry about what is in it any more than the 'Women's Weekly', or a pulp novel? 

Quote from: VeryGnawty on March 05, 2011, 01:46:24 AM
Because the belief you are talking about is a tautology.  If God makes no mistakes, then everything that happens is God's plan.  If you get cancer, it is God's will.  If you don't see a doctor because you believe God will heal you, it is God's will.  If you die anyway, it is God's will.  If you did go to the doctor, it is God's will.  If the doctor cures your cancer, it is God's will.  If the doctor doesn't cure your cancer and you die anyway, it is God's will.

But somehow, GRS and HRT are not God's will.  But if everything that happens is a part of God's plan (as I've heard many believers claim) then it is necessary that ->-bleeped-<- be God's will, because there is nothing in existence that could possibly happen that can't be God's will.  Even the fundamentalist's opposition to ->-bleeped-<- could also be construed as God's will.

This is why I find most religious debates to be useless.  Many believers hold onto contradictory and illogical beliefs which make it impossible to hold any type of reasonable debate.

Equally, since we have been given inteligence and the means to adapt our environments, it's surely right that we should use it.

Quote from: VeryGnawty on March 05, 2011, 01:46:24 AM
Because the belief you are talking about is a tautology.  If God makes no mistakes, then everything that happens is God's plan.  If you get cancer, it is God's will.  If you don't see a doctor because you believe God will heal you, it is God's will.  If you die anyway, it is God's will.  If you did go to the doctor, it is God's will.  If the doctor cures your cancer, it is God's will.  If the doctor doesn't cure your cancer and you die anyway, it is God's will.

But somehow, GRS and HRT are not God's will.  But if everything that happens is a part of God's plan (as I've heard many believers claim) then it is necessary that ->-bleeped-<- be God's will, because there is nothing in existence that could possibly happen that can't be God's will.  Even the fundamentalist's opposition to ->-bleeped-<- could also be construed as God's will.

This is why I find most religious debates to be useless.  Many believers hold onto contradictory and illogical beliefs which make it impossible to hold any type of reasonable debate.

that's very true. i don't think there's anything wrong with believing in a god, or going to a church to learn more about the origins of god. the problem is that people are taking this bible and using it as a tool of destruction. people like shirley phelps claiming that we should thank god for killed soldiers and 9-11 all because this is god's "punishment" for homosexuals. like you said, if god makes no mistakes, homosexuality should not be a mistake either. it's people who need to stop with the bible humping and learn to have morals.

Quote from: spacial on February 08, 2011, 09:39:53 AM
For my own part, I started on the basis that Jesus is right and anything he says is paramount.

When I read the Gospels, it seemed to me that Jesus was clarifying and emphasising the Commandments.

He also overturned all the Mosaic and subsequent laws, apart from the commandments when he said we are subject to the judgement of no man, that we must never kill and that worship is a provate and personal matter between ourselves and God.

Jesus never wrote anything! The gospels do not even agree among themselves as the "story of Jesus.  Until many hundred of years after Jesus death, there were more than 4 gospels, even its own divinity was not cannon until much later.

The so called "old testament" in Judaism referred as the Tannakh. The Tannakh contains the Torah (first five books). It is only the Torah that is considered the "word of G-d, by Jewish people. The rest of the Tannakh are considered sacred religious books but not cannon. The  Torah like most of the Tannakh was written in old Hebrew, which means words without vowels, making interpretation somehow very difficult. Rabbis are very aware of this problem and also with the some how contradictory messages found in the Torah. Their response is: "the Torah is the Torah," which means we have the human limitation to understand G-d. Most current Jewish scholar believe that:
The main sources of the Torah were:

    * The J (Yahwist) source, who always used 'YHVH' as the name for God and presents tradition from the point of view of the southern kingdom, Judah, using archaic Hebrew. J was a gifted storyteller who was especially interested in the human side of things and had his own characteristic vocabulary. J referred to Moses' father-in-law as Reuel or Hobab.
    * The E (Elohist) source, who always used 'Elohim' as the name for God and presents tradition from the point of view of the northern kingdom, Israel, using archaic Hebrew. E referred to Moses' father-in-law as Jethro, a mistake that Moses himself could not have made.
    * At some time around 650 BCE., J and E were combined by Judaean editors, producing a composite known to us as JE.
    * The D (Deuteronomist) source, who emphasises centralisation of worship and governance in Jerusalem, as would be expected from political events that followed the defeat of Israel. It uses a more modern form of Hebrew.
    * The P (Priestly) source uses both Elohim and El Shaddai as names of God and focuses on the formal relations between God and society. He also uses a late form of Hebrew, with a rather turgid style.

As for the question of this thread, the short answer is that the concept of TS or GID was unknown to the Hebrews. We can suggest that: homosexuals, GID people, inter sexed people, celibates, and castrated man, were all "dump" into the same category and referred as Eunuchs.

Assuming I am write (who I may not be!), se below:

Mathew 19:12
Young's Literal Translation
for there are eunuchs who from the mother's womb were so born; and there are eunuchs who were made eunuchs by men; and there are eunuchs who kept themselves eunuchs because of the reign of the heavens: he who is able to receive it -- let him receive.'


I deeply respect the rights of everybody to believe what ever they want, what really makes my blood boil is their "self righteousness" and their insistence in imposing their beliefs and morals into other people. I see people who quote the bible and/or Jesus as their "their final decree" and justification for commending others as the personification of evil ,as bad as the communists or Nazis.

I apologize in advance if my posting offends anybody.

Love,

Kate

Quote from: kate durcal on March 05, 2011, 12:15:04 PM
Jesus never wrote anything! The gospels do not even agree among themselves as the "story of Jesus.  Until many hundred of years after Jesus death, there were more than 4 gospels, even its own divinity was not cannon until much later.

..............

I apologize in advance if my posting offends anybody.

Love,

Kate

I can assure you, your posts are not in the least offensive. I have always found them to be well thought out and clearly written. They challange the ideas and opinions of others which, to my mind, is what discussion is.

I do appreciate the controversies about the Gospels. I don't claim to be an expert, but my understanding is that those rejected were done because they contained obvious errors.

I have had a similar discussion on these issues with people in the past, most recetly, Muslims. My principal argument against claims that the four Gospels were selected or forged, to suit the interests of the clergy of the time is what they contain.

It seems unlikely that the then or later church would forge documents where Jesus tells us that we are subject to the judgement of no man, especially since these churches, apparntly, were attempting to claim the authority to forgive sin. It also seems unlikely that they would forge documents saying we don't need to attend a church. Or that we must never kill, given the apparent influence of the Emporer Constantine.

The history and historicity of the various books of the Bible, and the people who actually wrote the set of documents that became the canons of Judaism and Christianity is indeed fascinating, but it does take a flexible mind, and a personal belief setup that is not too fragile.  I must have one of those mind setups, since it does not bother me that Jesus did not have a certified shorthand reporter and televison news crew dogging Him 24/7 or whatever electronic device we would put on him today to be sure we got His every "most holy" word into a bona fide key to heaven.  Just reading the Bible will not really help all that much if you are trying to get only enough to keep from "Pissin' Gd off.  Kate's post on the history of the Tanakh is one I have read before and which I find enlightening about the people whose lives make up the stuff Bibles are written about.  Thanks very much for bringing that in Kate.

Each of the Gospels is different because each person who wrote one of them WANTED to tell the story about Jesus in their own way, or in the way the group they were writing for wanted to think Jesus acted and spoke.  They were written from four DIFFERENT humans perspectives.  Try to get four people to absolutely agree on which color a traffic light was when an accident happened, and you get the picture.  So they contradict in some ways, whats the deal?  None of that shakes my faith and it makes them human too.  I am a human, not a demi-goddess, I hate burnt offerings!!  (Rare is much better.)